Hello and welcome to In Tune with Tradition, perspectives on session etiquette in Irish traditional music.
I'm Tara Connaghan and in this podcast, I talk to musicians and lovers of Irish traditional music, exploring the nitty gritty of the unwritten session etiquette rules.
But before we dive in, I just want to say a huge thank you to everyone who listened to the first episode.
because there were almost 400 downloads in the first week, which puts the podcast in the top 10 % of first time podcasts.
And that is thanks to you.
Your support has blown me away and I am so grateful to have you as part of this new community.
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Today I'm joined by Martin Hayes for the second episode.
Martin and I have both performed with the Irish Memory Orchestra, a unique ensemble that plays entirely from memory instead of sheet notation.
The orchestra features a mix of traditional Irish, classical, jazz and popular musicians, and was set up primarily for the performance of new compositions and arrangements by
renowned Irish composer and guitarist Dave Flynn.
Today's music is one such piece featuring Martin Hayes, Dennis Cahill and the Irish Memory Orchestra, entitled Music for the Departed, composed by Dave and recorded live in a cave
at a hydroelectric power station just south of Dublin, Ireland.
If you'd like to hear the piece live, I'm told it might feature in a concert by Martin and Dave at the Masters of Tradition Festival on August 21st this year.
But that's a secret, so don't tell him I told you.
Anyway, let's get tucked into the conversation.
I hope you enjoy the episode.
uh
Good morning Martin Hayes, how are you doing?
Thank you so much for joining me.
We have today Martin fiddle player renowned and very well respected fiddle player from County Clare.
I'm told a crossroads in the parish in his field is Kilanena, Feakle and Tulla
That covers me, yeah, that's the whole thing there.
And considering I lived in clare for 10 years, I have to get it right.
I didn't realise you lived...
Did you live in Ballyvaughan Vohana or was it some...
No.
No, I lived between Ennis and then in Barefield between the two parishes mostly.
And actually the other thing that we have in common is you mentioned the Tulla Ceili band and I played with the Tulla for a while as well.
I was your dep.
Very good.
I see like I'm as lathair a lot like you know and and and there's a bit like going going on I never know about it.
well, uh I I hoped was an enjoyable experience anyway
It was thoroughly enjoyable.
We did Electric Picnic one year.
It was on the Body and Soul stage and the crowd went wild.
mean, crazy.
And the sound guy was up on a tree and he took a video of everybody doing like the Walls of Limerick or the Siege of Ennis or something dancing about.
was just brilliant.
So anyway, we'll start with our podcast.
The first question I normally ask people is what does an Irish music session mean to you?
Well, for me, I know it's about music, but for me, it's very often like a social occasion.
I wouldn't like to go to a session, for example, and not know anybody and not have a conversation.
That would not be a very satisfying experience for me.
So it's lot about friendship and a lot about kind of connection and just like a social outing.
Now.
I'd like it to be good music as well, you know, but you can't always guarantee that.
How does, I suppose, being fairly well known, as you're probably one of the main, you know, if somebody mentions Irish music, they probably think of your name.
So how does that affect, I suppose, you participating in sessions?
Is it a wee bit of a pressure?
Well, all right, like I'm talking here and I'm very comfortable talking.
I have no problem with that.
I'm very comfortable getting up on the stage.
All very good.
But I'm actually shy behind all of that.
I'm actually shy.
So walking into a pub with a fiddle is probably just as difficult for me as anybody.
And the one thing like...
One of the things that causes me some anxiety is if because I am well known or something like that somebody will get up and give me their chair.
Now that's like to me a horror story like you know I'd like like I want this to be kind of as un...
you know like it's Little disruption as possible.
I just want to kind of I want to be quiet I want to not be noticed I want to like a lot of things that probably can't happen like but
Like, yeah, I want to be unnoticed, if that makes any sense.
But that's not so easily achieved these days, so anyway.
Yeah, I hear you.
Yeah, even, you know, I suppose even in Donegal, I would feel the same if I go into a session.
Sometimes you just want to relax and listen or...
You know, like I don't want to get every tune in the world played like and I want to take plenty of breaks.
One I remember many years ago like sessions were different like when I was younger in that like they weren't organized to the degree that they are now.
In other words, like a session could happen, it might happen, it could happen.
Like it was sporadic and it was just a few people would kind of say, look we should go to
Lena Hanrahans for a few tunes, I we should go to the Dublins and Feakle for a few tunes or something like that.
And those were the spots we went to for a session in those times.
so it would be just a loose gathering of friends, I suppose, you know.
And you might let some people know.
And there'd be some people you mightn't let know, you know.
But anyway, it would be a loose gathering of friends.
uh
But I remember this one night where were all, Paddy Carty was going to come down to Feakle so we all go to Peppers for a night with Paddy Carty.
And that was the time when people could smoke indoors and drink whatever they wanted.
So it was, I just remember the casual pace of the session.
There'd be a tune played, a cigarette lit, a conversation started, more chat, a sip of a drink.
followed by a conversation that would lead to a tune, that would lead to another bit of conversation, that would lead to another bit of tune.
And there wasn't this frenzy of like, we've got to get all my tunes in here, or let's not waste any time, just keep playing, playing, playing, playing.
And I go, no, let's make sure this is relaxed, social, and enjoyable, you know?
In that sense, in a human sense, you know?
Do think that that comes from more people that are learning?
Or does that happen to people who are seasoned musicians as well?
maybe they're just less worried about having to play all the tunes they know because they've been playing for years, maybe it's the newer ones, new people that are coming that
are...
I mean, I get the sense, like, I mean, I do teach some music and, like, the issue of playing in sessions comes up a lot because that's the benchmark for many people.
Like, you know, this is, I go and play in the session and that will define whether I'm functioning as a musician or not, like, how well I can get on in that environment.
So consequently, there's a lot of stress around it.
Like, people are not sure whether they validly belong in the session or whether
the session might be operating at a level beyond them?
they good enough to be playing and how many tunes do need to know and should you know every tune there is?
And how comfortable are you just sitting out while somebody plays a tune that you don't know?
Are you mortified like if somebody plays a tune and you can't play?
There are a lot of issues like that that I think create a lot of anxiety and tension.
So sometimes like, people aren't getting to play the tunes that they know, like the minute an opening comes in with their tune, know, like, okay, I'm getting in with it.
And it seemed like, you know, I suppose like I see anxiety sometimes in those situations, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
m
What's the saying?
Keep calm and just let things happen.
Like we say, the session is a very common thing now, but if you think about it historically, um a session could only have happened within a geographic area where people
could have travelled, for example, meaning that you were almost certainly playing within the confines of your own repertoire and comfort zone.
Like, you know, when you met people, the issue of knowing the tunes and not knowing the tunes was largely solved by where you were and...
like who you knew.
But now, know, people are from everywhere all the time, they don't know each other, there's no sense of what the repertoire might be.
So I still feel there's room for growth and development in our understanding of what a session is.
I don't believe that it's a settled thing, you know.
I like that.
I'm writing down that growth and development.
Well, know, in like even the sense of what the etiquette is, you know, like in a session, you know, because like one time, I'm not saying that this was a good etiquette, like, but
you nearly have had to buy a drink to get to sit at the table, like, you know, there was a sense of that, like if you bought around the drinks, you were already in the session, you
know.
You know, like there was, yeah, and the other thing was like if you like,
the older players would have had a sense of where you actually couldn't sit down to play unless somebody asked you.
Like you couldn't actually go in and sit down and open up your instrument, sit down and play.
Somebody would say, but did you bring your fiddle?
Bring it over, come on, sit down and play, you know.
And that way, like your sense and your feeling of belonging and being part of it is already psychologically sorted out, you know.
Whereas if you have to kind of burst in there,
with your fiddle and decide to get a chair and not know who's there and open your fiddle and start.
That's a lot of, you know.
Yeah, and that's a lot on you.
I have difficulty with that as well.
Like, I definitely would not walk in and just join in the session straight away.
I would definitely do a bit of standing around until somebody says, here, do you want to sit in and play or, you know, something like that, you know.
Yeah, have you ever had a session in recent years where people go, you've got a fiddle, do you play?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I haven't had that, no.
Yeah, well, I suppose like if I'm, you know, if I'm playing like locally around Feakle or something like that, people don't give a damn, you know.
mean, you know, yeah, that wouldn't be an issue, you know.
Well it's your local, you know.
Yeah but I mean if I was going into a session where I didn't really know anybody, know different part of the country didn't know anybody, I just wouldn't.
I wouldn't sit down and take out my fiddle, ever.
Yeah, it's a tricky one and you'd wonder if there shouldn't be like, maybe this podcast is about that, maybe kind of saying, okay, let's think about this and let's see what are the
problems, are there solutions out there?
Maybe people listening to this will have ideas and will have stories that can kind of shed some light on this, you know.
I'm hoping to interview lots of people from all different backgrounds and from different levels, standards, even pub ah owners, so people on the periphery as well that oh can look
in and see.
And even people who know nothing about Irish music, just to see what their perspective would be.
I think it's good to see as many perspectives as possible.
I think so, yeah.
I think you're right about that.
um Yeah, there's, yeah, now that I think about it, there's probably a lot to explore in that whole area that you've devoted this podcast to, you know?
And I mean, like, for some people, the definition of traditional music is the session, you know?
I wouldn't necessarily think so.
think, like, it's...
like traditional music can obviously manifest in lot of different forms on stage, digitally, all kinds of ways.
But uh there is something that happens in a session sometimes, a kind of uh a freedom I suppose.
that people can experience that would be difficult, be a challenging freedom to experience on the stage, know, or in a recording studio or something like that.
So the sessions are very valuable that way in that you can kind of get to a place that's, you know, I mean, and you can get to a place playing for set dancers in a Ceili Band as
well, you know, there are all kinds of ways of accessing this music, but...
The session I suppose is, I often worry or wonder or empathise with foreigners visiting Ireland and saying I want to join in the session and really not, like all of the stuff
that we're talking about, like the standing between them and having a relaxed, enjoyable experience.
It would great if we could put some answers before them.
Yeah, hopefully that that might that this podcast might help just even hear the things like, God, I wouldn't sit down in a session without, you know, without knowing somebody.
Those kind of simple things that I suppose maybe we're told as kids when you're growing up, possibly, you know, and you don't even know, remember the time that you're actually
told it, but it's kind of percolating there the whole time.
Yeah.
Don't go in there.
You don't know, you know, don't know those musicians or.
About learning, heard something there recently that I thought was very wise, was that like, kids don't listen to what their parents do, but they sure as hell imitate what they
do.
That's so true.
So in that sense, we may actually be just simply imitating the behaviours that we saw growing up, know, among the older musicians.
And I think we probably have internalized that, you know.
think that's probably you've hit the nail on the head.
Yeah, I think that's the first person now uh I've encountered saying that and that just seems to make sense.
Yeah, mean, we do.
I mean, my initial world of sessions was always in a world of familiarity.
I'd be playing with Mary McNamara or Andrew or my father and a few more players.
It would never be huge groupings.
uh
and like it was in familiar environments with familiar people.
So that was my sense oh of what a session was, you know.
Now, like, you know, as we were saying there earlier, that has obviously changed, you know, quite a bit, you know.
And, you know, people are, you know, rightfully, like, confused by it, I think, you know.
Like, I remember talking to somebody in UL there one time, many years ago, and like,
They thought that there had been sessions of music in Feakle seven nights a week, uh for infinity, like it had been going on forever.
And neither of those two, like it hadn't been going on forever, and it wasn't every night, and it wasn't in every bar, in fact it was quite sporadic.
But I suppose Doolin, for example, would be a place where a session culture is...
kind of embedded there for a really, really long time at this stage, you know.
It's very sporadic and doing all which is kind of nice so it's not too organized.
Yeah, yeah, there's there's there's for and against with that, you know, I, you know, I can see like if I was working for the Irish Tourist Board or something like that, I'd be
going, come on, let's get those sessions organized.
We got tourists who want to see them, you know.
On the other hand, like, you know, I can imagine the pub owner thinking, yeah, let's get this more organized.
But um from a musical point of view, I suppose I like the kind of impromptu kind of thing.
I grew up with that, you know.
I love it too, because I like try to explain to people that for me it feels like that's where the magic can happen when there's something that's a surprise.
It's not too kind of that it happens all the time.
I think, for example, one factor of those sessions long ago was, of course, nobody was getting paid.
And what would happen is the pub owner, if they were friendly to music, would at least provide drink.
And if you were in Lena Hanrahans, almost certainly she would provide drink.
and bring out sandwiches, you know, and so there was a lot of like hospitality and welcome for it, but like it wasn't seen as a kind of a having a financial thing.
Now, if you're paid to play a session and you don't and you're not enjoying the few tunes, you're not as comfortable taking a long break, you know, or you're not as comfortable, you
know, going home earlier than you might have or there's a lot of
kind of unnatural things that begin to happen all of a sudden, once there's a little bit of a contract, you know?
Yes.
It's funny because I do say to the local pub I don't want payment because then I'm under pressure.
I don't want to be under pressure.
want to enjoy it.
So I'll be in when I'm in.
I think there's something to be said for that.
No, I know that there's actually like not to kind of...
I mean, there's the other side of that too, which is that there are a good many musicians now who actually make their living.
Kind of like having a regular session circuit.
I used to run two sessions in Chicago many years ago.
Like that was when like the idea of running a session kind of became a thing, you know, and
But I enjoyed it thoroughly though, you know, I kind of Like once I'd get it up and going like I'd have a kind of a hands-off I wouldn't be playing all the time, you know, but I
get things rolling like, you know and and I
It became largely a very social occasion as well.
I'd have these people I would meet every Wednesday night in Chicago and uh boy, that was something I looked forward to and the friendships deepened over time and so then it was a
really important thing to have.
But yeah, but navigating the sense, suppose, like the more you're paid, the worse it will get, suppose.
uh like, you know, eh it's trying to maintain a kind of a relaxed kind of feeling to it.
And the other thing about sessions, I realized is like, yeah.
It can't always be great music.
It can't always be about that.
There's got to be more to it than that as well.
I've seen musicians get bent out of shape because somebody is sinking the boat over there.
Somebody is causing a problem.
I suppose, yeah, where are they coming from as well?
Are they maybe coming from that that's the only session they've got out in months?
Yeah.
Who knows, you Who knows?
like, I used to, one thing I used to say I was teaching one time was like, you know, if you, if you have
musical ideas.
Like if you come to the session with I know how this tune goes and this is how it should go, you're gonna have a problem.
Like you're gonna have a problem because there's no certainty whatsoever that everybody's gonna see that piece of music the same way.
So seeking the common denominator, know, like you know finding the point at which everybody can actually contribute, you know.
And as I said to some people, two versions of the Bucks of Oranmore Gone Array is worse music than Twinkle Twinkle Little Star played by everybody together.
know what I mean?
No matter how clever you think you're getting with how well you play, it's just a cat fight if everybody can't be on board.
But at the same time it is there is that kind of almost like Chinese whispers about it because it's you know there as you say everybody has a Different take on what the music is
but as long as it kind of can gel with each other
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes like there when you hear traditional musicians play Together there's there's two ways.
I mean in a more modern sense uh Like like players fuse like like the ornaments fuse you'll hear a concertina and pipes and and the triplets and the rolls are gels together
and it's completely unified like and and I get what that is
If, no, as you say, you sat on the stage with the Tulla Ceili band, like, you get another thing, which is you get a wash of the tune.
With a lot of little intricacies, like going off in different directions at different times, where all the players having slightly variant versions of the tune.
So you get the...
You know, so, like, I do feel like...
The session, we're better off not looking for that tight fusion of playing in an open session.
Like kind of just going with the large wash of melody.
I find that quite enjoyable too.
I love that the session can be kind of small enough that I can hear the other musicians so that I can bounce off.
If I hear something, you if I hear you play like a note or two, I'm like, oh, I'm going to add that in and, you know, see if they notice that I've added in and then they notice it
and they notice something that I've done and then.
Yeah, yeah, then you have communication.
That's brilliant.
uh
Like should be a central focus of all playing together, know, communication, you know.
That's my favorite bit.
mean, that's for me where the magic happens and I get all excited and buzzing and then that could keep me buzzing for weeks.
I know, you know, in my own, like of course my own life is largely not about the session at this stage but mostly about performance.
But like it's the same thing with performance, like if I get it right on an occasion it lives with me for a long time, like it offers sustenance for quite a while and it keeps my
faith in the music and what can be achieved in the music, it keeps all that alive for me.
I mean, I suppose that's exactly what yourself and Dennis were doing the whole time.
Your good friend Dennis.
uh
yeah, we were kind of communicating like it was definitely, you know, something that we had built up between us for sure over many years, you know, but it was, And it didn't
always work like I mean but a lot of time, uh most of the time it probably did, to some level anyway, work.
you know, yeah, it's like music, it's like...
uh
Getting back to the social thing again, it's about friendship and it's about trust and it's about openness and it's about tolerance and all of these things.
You need all of these things to be in a band.
You need all these things to be in a session as well.
Do you think that maybe, we mentioned about the, you know, once a session, you know, if you're paid that kind of pressure is a bit more on you when you're in the session, that
maybe something like the basic income for artists payment which is coming close to the end of its pilot scheme at the moment.
Yeah.
That allows maybe that kind of allows people to not be under so much pressure for financial gain because there's an income coming in every week.
But that's kind of the idea of that in a way.
Were you part of the board or the committee or something?
I was, yeah, I was, yeah, like, well, yeah, well, we kind of, yeah, and in fairness, the Green Party had put it on their agenda for government before, before that government was
formed, before the pandemic.
so, so we had like a Green Party minister for the arts.
So we're going, okay, all right.
So it seemed like a very, um
It seemed like a great way of dealing with the arts because we hear a lot about arts funding and certainly there is always a need for arts funding but of course it goes into
buildings, goes into administration, it goes into organisations, it goes into all kinds of things and it takes it a while to filter down to the actual artists and almost none of it,
almost none.
of the Arts Council funding ends up in the hands of like everyday traditional musicians.
Almost none.
But this program, I felt like, you know, was a good way for to kind of just start putting the money in at the grassroots instead, you know.
I have to admit I was one of the lucky 2,000 people that have been on that for the last three years.
you were?
It has allowed me to give up my job so that I could then just play music, not be under pressure to have to financial gain for the music.
ah
I am delighted to hear that.
I'm delighted you were on that committee that dreamt up that because it has been amazing.
Well, I wouldn't claim any particular credit myself for it.
Other than that, there was one moment of doubt about it uh when somebody from the department came back.
And the argument was that, like...
as a uh trial study that maybe people in the arts weren't a good sample of the population of how this would work.
know I mean?
They wanted something for the general public, really, and that this was the argument against maybe doing it in government.
So I remember I go, no, actually, the arts are actually the best sample group for this reason.
I said, because everything is becoming the geek economy.
everybody working everywhere is starting to become self-employed.
You could be self-employed working for Google at this stage.
And so I said, no, it's actually a very fine example of where the economy seems to be headed towards the gig economy, quote unquote.
And so I'm like, we're doing gigs.
So there you go.
Well thank you.
It has just been amazing.
I think the interesting point about it or something that we understood going through that was that it wasn't necessarily like it might appear like a kind of a uh like, oh this is
just costing too much money and you're just giving money to people just to have fun and do their things.
But we were explained that no actually you know what it is like sometimes people are forced to choose between these things like uh
Like somebody says, well, you can go on the dole for a while, you can get social welfare for a while, but then you have to apply for jobs and you have to, and you're going, okay,
like so.
So then if you're on the social welfare and somebody offers you a gig, you can't take it.
Yeah.
So we are pushed out of it.
So the question was, OK, could we just make it a simple, straightforward thing and allow it as a base income to allow artists to actually...
Because lots of everything.
The government pays for teachers.
We have art in our society and I think people think it just happens.
It doesn't just happen.
People have to take time out to do it.
Anyway.
delighted you got it
What would you advise people in terms of listening?
Just listening and overall either listening to music, listening to the sessions, but in general I suppose listening towards sessions.
Like from a musician point of view, if I was saying for a musician to listen, would like, because we have a tendency to listen with the, what is that?
And, and, that'd be a nice tune for me.
And, you know, and we kind of get like analytical, but I, I would say to kind of listen kind of in a more relaxed, open kind of way and just like,
What's more important with a piece of music is to kind of absorb the experience of it, you know?
And to like, like listening is active too, you know?
Like, like, like, you'll hear nothing good if you're not open to it.
Like, you know, if you don't believe something good can happen and if you're not open to that possibility, you're not going to hear anything.
Like, nothing is going to reach you.
So, so if, like, we have to prepare ourselves to be reached by music as well, you know, like.
like to be in that open frame of mind, know, uh so that like you can go in and you can hear a session then and it can actually, it can lift you, it can move you, it can do a lot
of things to you uh if you're open.
But you can be in the corner with your arms crossed as well.
You can like not be open.
And therefore, you can make a judgment that it's useless and it's no good, you know, because you're not feeling anything from it.
But if you prejudge it, you won't hear it.
And what about um to those maybe that are learning as well, listening for them?
Yeah, I...
like for me...
okay, like how did I listen?
Like when I was learning...
um I didn't listen from the point of view of acquiring, okay?
I didn't learn any tune that I didn't really like.
um
I only learned tunes I really liked.
I only played tunes I really liked.
um And I listened to players.
Like, you know, could be Tony McMahan or it could be, you know, whatever, you know.
And I just got the feeling of their music.
Like, it was the feeling of their music that spoke to me first.
so, like, maybe as a musician I would have gone searching for that.
in my own way then, you know, after that searching for the feeling, because you're actually searching for the result of music, like the outcome of music, instead of
searching for like, okay, I'll get that triplet here and I'll figure that out and I'll stick it in here.
You know, like, you know, you're looking for the end result of music upon yourself, the end result of music in the room, the end result of music to the other listener, you know,
and...
And that, in a way, if you keep things on that level, it actually keeps things fairly straightforward, you know?
Like, you're less likely to get lost, like, trying to figure out what to do, you know?
Like, nobody is moved from a collection of clever techniques.
Like, it can be clever, but it doesn't actually necessarily do anything to you.
I'm not against technique and I certainly can admire technique when I see it and I see plenty of it.
But it wouldn't be the driving thing for me either.
I suppose that's the point.
So from a listening point of view, I would have listened to players.
I wasn't trying to get who's the best fiddler and I'm going to listen to the best fiddler.
I wasn't really thinking that way.
listening to the experience I suppose.
Yeah, yeah, just like if, you know, I suppose we all have different temperaments, like so different colourings of music like impact us in different ways, you know.
I I liked kind of melancholic music, like I just liked it, you know, and so I was always drawn to that, you know.
Respect for, because I think maybe that leads on from listening, respect for the players that are there or maybe what has gone before people.
That's important.
I'm just thinking for people, know, if anybody's listened to this from, you know, another planet that hasn't grown up in Ireland.
Respecting the older musicians is important.
I put myself in with the older ones now at this stage.
I'm looking forward to that when that happens.
anyway, in my case, a lot of the people that would have deeply influenced me have already passed on.
um Musically, I think it was very important to understand them.
to get where they were coming from, to get what they were trying to say with their music and to maybe on some level internalise that as well, try and carry that baton, try and
keep going with that.
And then like...
Well, I suppose this pertains maybe more to being a performing musician.
I remember I'm doing certain things and I'm saying to myself, you know, Junior Crehan wouldn't actually like this.
And my father would be dubious about it too.
And it was troubling me.
But then I had a little insight come to me, which was that...
Actually, didn't matter what that was, really.
But it did matter what I thought about them a lot.
It mattered to me that I understood them.
It was less important that they understood me because they'd already sorted out.
The importance of the communication was that I could understand them.
after that then, you know, because like, like otherwise, like I don't want to get caught like in a slavish.
uh traditionalism, know, like where like nothing can change, nothing can move, like you know, and there's an orthodox way of doing it and that's it and there's the wrong and the
right and the good and the bad and so I try to steer away from that as much as I can.
So it's having your own, but with respect in what's there.
Correct, like, you know, not just a flippant respect, a respect of like really getting who they were and getting the, not just respect because they're old, but respect because they
were carrying tradition, respect because there was deep insight in their way of thinking about music and playing.
Like my Junior Crehan, had insight.
Bobby Casey had insight.
Like they were...
They thought more deeply about that than one would imagine, I think.
How does a person go about respecting that?
does that come into a thing?
Yeah, how does that manifest?
How do we see that in the real world?
Well, I suppose like in practical terms for me, it is literally understanding what they're saying when they play.
Like that's the first part.
there is a tendency like every teenager knows more than their parents, you know?
And as time goes on, they don't.
uh
And eventually they realised their parents knew so much more than they had any clue about.
It's the same in music.
We kind of think, are those old players?
We might just judge them by their technical skill level, which is fine.
But there's a lot more to music than one's technical skill level.
There's a lot of understanding.
I remember people used to kind of dismiss Micho Russell and go, yeah, okay, all right, why don't you do it?
And you know what?
Not that easy, not that easy to do.
And so sometimes I think in terms of respecting older players, see if you could actually do it.
We all know how to mimic other musicians.
We'll see if you could do it for real.
Could you actually cast a bit of a spell like Junior Crehan did?
And then you'll find out, maybe it's not so easy.
So then your respect will automatically grow, I think.
Yeah, so it's not just the way they tactically play it.
no it's not, no there's more to it.
Like I do gigs like right, if it was about how I technically played the thing I'd have it solved.
Like you know because I know how to play the tunes I'm going to play, I got it figured out.
But I know that actually how I'm feeling, how I'm thinking, you know just the sense of...
what the music is and everything.
All of that needs to actually be brought to the table in order for me to actually have a good night of music, like something that's alive and real.
the psychological subterranean part of this music is deep and vast.
to get to a good place musically, there's just a whole range of other things in there.
for me that's always been more important.
I might sound like I'm dismissing technique and technical skill, but I'm not really, but I just know that there's so much more to it.
it is...
You know, when I was a kid, people...
The word artist didn't apply to fiddle players.
We weren't artists.
I would hear highfalutin conversations about art maybe.
like on a radio program or something like that.
When I was a kid, I'd go, what bullshit?
I'd be thinking, know, like nonsense, garbage talk, you know, just do the damn thing and shut up.
ah So like, I know that perspective.
But then as time went on, I realized that like what it would take for a classical pianist to interpret a piece of classical music.
Yeah, does it take?
Sure.
But in the same vein as
any other art form, they have to go to a deeper level of themselves to get to...
like some deeper insight to get to a level of freedom of expression that is something far more than the technical requirements of delivering.
uh so I eventually ended up embracing the artist idea and saying, OK, well, I guess maybe we are artists after all, and maybe we can think about it in those terms.
And I found that
Like being an artist actually brought me closer to kind of understanding Willie Clancy, Joe Cooley, Tommy Potts.
You know, like I was actually moving more towards that world then, you know.
Yeah, I think I remember a similar time.
It was in Clare actually, when I started working in the Arts Office.
I was like, sure, it's not really relevant to me because I'm just a fiddler.
That's, you see, this is exactly what we thought
Just a trad musician, not relevant, but...
And then I slowly got kind of, I suppose helped along to thinking that actually you are creating something that is a piece of art.
Yes, exactly.
And many of the same things that go into making a piece of poetry are like, you know, I know it's a performance art, like so it's a different from like writing a piece of poetry.
But nonetheless, you do go into There's a similar world that we all can enter there, you know, that makes the
in our case, traditional music come alive or actually creates a poem for a poet, or a piece of art for a painter.
We're not that far apart.
It seems like it, but we're not, actually.
It like it's what's going on in the head and the heart maybe.
That's how it transfers across rather than it's just notes.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think bringing your music in under that umbrella can be a bit of a trick because sometimes our playing, if we're not careful, is on some kind of autopilot.
And so we have to bring it in under some kind of conscious awareness.
Paul Muldoon, the poet, said to me one time, he says, we are all doing the same thing.
And I thought.
He's right, know.
He's right.
We are all doing the same thing, actually.
Mm-hmm.
I have a website for this podcast.
It's called SessionEtiquette.com and I have like a questionnaire that people can fill in as well and so it's only launched very recently and there's been a huge response already
but would you mind if I went through just picked out a couple of the questions that people have?
Of course, yeah.
So one of questions I ask is, what is your biggest challenge in sessions?
I have about 65 responses here at the moment, which is great.
And they're from a varied viewpoint.
I suppose there's people who consider themselves as completely new beginners, intermediate and somewhere in between intermediate and advanced and then more advanced musicians.
Almost 50 % of them would be of people that would consider themselves intermediate level.
And then there's about a quarter advanced professional.
That's a safe place to put yourself.
I'm intermediate for me,
And then the rest are a mix of in between and beginner.
So I'm just going to randomly select a couple of.
So this is their challenge at a session.
knowing if it's a truly open session or not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's...
Yeah.
Like that's everything there.
I mean, like it's like, before we first started talking about like that's it, you know.
Well, I do think that, you know, like we could say to ourselves, OK, let's say that three or four of us playing, we're having a lovely tune and some unknown musician turns up, OK,
and we're thinking.
this could fall apart now if the wrong person sits in this could fall apart what do we do?
what is the right thing to do there?
I mean like
I think we have to invite that musician in.
I just think so, you know.
I I certainly like to invite people in and I think if somebody feels the same, you know, you were talking about the whole conversation and connection thing at the start that it's
not just about the music, but if that person can feel the social connection part.
Yeah.
If we're having conversations, for example, should it be possible for people to sit around a circle and not know each other's names?
Should we allow a situation like that to happen?
I don't think so.
I find that terrible.
Although is that not an opportunity to get to know them?
Yes.
Oh right, so you're saying you wouldn't have a situation where you would have people that you don't know the names because you just didn't bother to ask.
Yeah, no, so I think it's important that the people get to at least say my name is Joe and I'm from blah blah blah and what's your name and blah blah blah and I am and we introduce
and kind of like I think we have a social obligation to do that like you
That's lovely.
Would it be basic?
You would think about it like as basic courtesy, like in a way.
I mean, just to kind of get people in and say, look at, we have these selections of tunes we play here, you might know all of them.
But if you're going to be coming back again another night, why don't you take out a tape recorder and tape what we're playing here and get to know the tunes.
we largely play the same selection most, Wednesday nights for example or something you know.
yeah, I mean that's how are we all learned
yeah, that kind of thing, you know, I just say, okay, and then, you know, but like, I do think that, like, this this thing about, like, over vigorous playing without social
interaction is a bad method for the session.
I feel like that we like we need to have, you know, human communication, like dialogue, you know, in between.
And I think if we have that dialogue, it reduces the anxiety on people who are worried about being there, and then things can happen more organically.
Yeah exactly, exactly.
You can get a sense of the personalities of the people you're sitting with.
You can get a sense of who they are.
You could be intimidated by somebody because they have a certain kind of frown when they play.
You might think they're unfriendly but they can be very friendly.
You can very easily misgauge these things
Here's another part of a question.
If there's a stool free is it fair game?
I'd say so, yeah.
I'd say so.
But I would check that it's not the stool of somebody who just went to the Jacks, you know?
You know, hold on a second.
I'm coming back.
on the stool
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I would ask before I take the stool, but I mean, it's largely fair game.
I think one should ask, like, you know, maybe somebody is holding it for a friend of theirs who's going to sit beside them you know.
There's any number of things that could be going on, like, you know, but I'd ask.
Have you an ideal size that you like for a session?
Like an ideal number of...
Yeah, suppose four or five feels about right to me.
I don't know.
But if 15 people turn up at the door, you say, no, you can't play.
uh But no, I'd imagine four or five.
I tell this funny story about my father.
I didn't hear this from my father.
I heard it from uileann Piper.
He said, three pipers turned up at Pepper's one night and at Wednesday night and my father was there.
Now, my father likes the pipes.
He doesn't necessarily like three pipes in the session.
So this fellow walks up to him and says, we're pipers, we're from wherever.
And could we join the session?
And my father said, sure, one of ye could anyway
says my father they were kind of thinking, okay, should we do this in shifts then, or how does this work?
Because in a way, I suppose with three sets of pipes, it was going to be a very particular sound.
That was going to be the session then.
Yes, how many others were there in the session?
Was it just your dad playing the fiddle or?
My dad with Francie Donnellan and the two of them used to kind of hold court like of a Wednesday night.
Yeah, was something like, I mean, we do think that the sessions were this kind of, um I mean, they are non-hierarchical in a certain sense, but I also have these memories like of
going to the, what was the pub in Dublin where John Kelly and Joe Ryan used to play?
uh on Caple Street, yeah.
I remember like the two of them,
held court like, they picked the tunes largely.
They would play and people could play along with them.
And my father, Francie, used to play every Wednesday night in Peppers and Feakle and it became something like that as well.
know, the two boys had their selections of tunes.
Now, if you learned those tunes, they were reliably going to come back next Wednesday.
You know, you'd be fairly safe.
you had a predictable target here, you know, you could say, these are the tunes, they are gonna play them, and I will know the tunes, you know.
So in a sense, over time, it did allow for a lot of entry into the session, it allowed a lot of people to go, okay, yeah, I got the repertoire that's going on here, and eventually
lots of people had it.
And then another one of the problems of sessions was like switching tunes, you know, got sorted out.
Because the boys had this kind of old ceili band, well, like old recording kind of concept of three reels, you know.
And once they started one, you do the other two then automatically.
And uh so the session had a kind of a coherence.
Now, you know, some people complained like, we were always playing the same tunes, but, know, it's not possible to have new tunes every week, you know.
and it's okay to play a lot of the same ones, it's okay to add a few as well.
But the consistency of people getting to know the tunes and being able to join in I thought was very useful.
Anyway, don't know, do I stray from every single question you ask?
think I do.
I think I just wander off.
Could be a, you know, is that a, what do call it, a trait in the creative mind?
The you want undisciplined, mind?
Yeah.
But that's maybe what creatives are.
We could all be disciplined and then be accountants maybe.
I don't have that I'm afraid.
Somebody else has asked, intermediate player struggles with having the basics of good rhythm.
How do they manage that?
Or how does the environment around it manage?
Maybe learners who don't have quite the rhythm yet.
ah Yeah, it's an issue like rhythm, know.
Like, well, the session can help a lot, like in the rhythm.
If you kind of, like, are flexible and submit to it, it'll show you where the rhythm and the groove is, you know.
You can let that happen.
I mean, another factor in that as well is that, like, I believe that in this music, like, when we play it, like, the rhythm actually sits in your body, you know, more than in your
instrument.
and your instrument responds to that, you play in response to that.
So I would say to musicians, try not to imagine playing this music only with your hands and your head.
Your whole body actually moves into a phrase of rhythm.
And if you cut off your body from that inevitable, it's actually very difficult to keep time.
It's very difficult to make a rhythm.
It's very difficult to stay consistent.
You need your body.
Your body helps you do that.
It kind of works as its own metronome.
You don't have to be gyrating all over the place to allow that to happen.
But it certainly flows in the body.
And you see that not just with traditional music, but with all music.
Even if you see a non-rhythmic...
piece of music played by a concert pianist, you will actually see their body move with the phrase.
If you saw somebody sit completely still, you'd be suspicious.
There's a kind of a gesture that has a physical dimension to it in your body and manifests as a gesture in music.
And the same is true with rhythm and pulse, that you need to let your body
feel it and be part of your playing.
In fact, your body is more useful to your playing than your brain.
Like thinking, like too much thinking doesn't do much for it.
So put your brain to the side.
yeah, it's great to think about music a lot and I like to theorize and think and talk and philosophize and everything.
But when you sit down to play like you'd be, you need a lobotomy right there.
need to stop the brain from getting in the way of the music.
oh
and maybe put the heart in the forefront.
Yes, yeah, and the body, the body feels it, like the body, the body feels the music, it carries the music, you know.
I think if I'm in a giddy state, like my heart feels like it's lifted, my head feels like it's out of the way, and I just get so excited and I play much better.
Yeah, precisely.
Getting back to our earlier chat, we were talking about arts and music.
Going through that process of knowing when your intellect should be applied and when not.
Like, you know, when you should have an active thinking process and when you should, you know, just trust and let go and flow and trust what emerges, you I think that there's
obviously balancing act with all of that.
But like to answer your question or like on rhythm, I think, yeah, letting go and letting your body have a say.
What if somebody's body doesn't work in time with the music?
I Ask them to leave the session immediately.
You know if you're in a bigger session you're trying to keep in time with the musician you know and so you're watching their foot tapping but their foot taps at a different time.
oh
You stop playing and you buy them a drink, you know, and you have a good chat.
Well, I mean, on one level.
there is like one can be and I have played this role as well, like it's a kind of a slightly subversive role, you know, where like you can actually create pulse and rhythm
that has a...
an entrainment quality to it, that kind of pulls others along with it, if it's precise and kind of...
oh
powered as possible, you know, it can actually sway the session.
I've actually sat in groups of music where I could hear a pull one way or the other, you know, like, and I might actually kind of put my thumb on the scale in favour of one And
like, and put all my weight with one group of musicians in the hope of...
tipping the scale in that direction and allowing that to be the consensus.
Because we're looking for consensus.
So that poor person whose body was not in sync, I would look for some other bodies that were in sync and we would kind of maximize the groove and get that person to submit.
Yeah, oh they probably were like playing in sync but they're foot wasn't
yeah, some people, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Some people's bodies may be in sync but their foot might be out to lunch, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like, oh God, oh, like when somebody's foot is tapping out of rhythm, like I am like, or when somebody's actually moving out of rhythm, like that is time for
the eyes shut music, you know.
And that, you your mention about that, what did you call it, entrainment?
Entrainment, yeah.
It's like entrainment would be like if you, a magnet over metal filings, like you you get it all to...
Or as like Dennis used to talk about like being in the studio with an engineer one time and there's a band and they're not gelling like they're kind of going and the engineer
puts on the headphones, puts his microphone on and he says into the headphones, says hey let's everybody try and row in the same direction right?
everybody, we're going in the same direction okay?
And you know so like
I would say to all musicians going into the session, have your antenna on.
This is not a personal performance here.
This is not like, I learned how to play the tune this way and I'm coming and this is how I'm playing it.
No, be prepared to warp and bend.
Be prepared to let your tune get shaped by what's happening around you.
And be prepared to be lifted by the session.
Also, there is another thing that happens in the session, which I think is very important, which is every now and again you're going to play over your head.
You're going to play better than you actually know how to play, and you're going to know you did that, and you're going to know that it resides in you as potential.
It's an indicator of what you can do, and every now and again if you stay open and allow yourself to be brought
brought along by the session, you can find yourself playing at a higher level.
then you might not be able to replicate that when you get home, in all likelihood you won't.
But you'll know it's there.
And that's important.
That is brilliant.
I had an experience recently where I was playing in a session and I have a new fiddle m which I love.
It's definitely I've moved up in the fiddle category.
At the kind of closer to the end of the night, know your uh hands would normally get a bit tired, tendons would to of seize up a wee bit.
It's like the fiddle took over and
It's almost like it says you can, you know, you have a rest.
I'll play the rest of it.
And I barely had to put my fingers on the fiddle.
It just, and it was like, what, what is going on?
Who is this playing?
But like that's a breakthrough like in a way like you know like when you're like I I have many memories of kind of breakthrough moments like that you know when you when you
suddenly realize oh I actually yeah, I discover something and I think part of that is because in the session You know when things are going right like it can be tremendously
relaxing
You can play at a level of relaxation that's hard to achieve in any other situation.
So it's not surprising, I suppose, that one could have musical breakthroughs in those situations.
and I've been trying to replicate it again, it's like, come on, come on fiddle why aren't you?
The biggest challenge as a performing musician was having a really good gig.
I go, yeah, I cracked it.
And what do you want to do the next night?
You want to do that gig again.
And you know what?
It's not yielding.
There is no solution.
uh
There is no solution.
So you just have to be willing to kind of just jump in and see what happens.
like trying to replicate a good gig is like just the recipe for not having a good gig, you know?
I think that's true.
Maybe is this the same then with us trying to replicate a good session?
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
The tension, the pressure, the beginning disappointment, because of the lack of trust and all that.
Yeah, exactly.
Because we had this session and it was great and we just go, why can't it be great again?
But the thing was like, maybe on that occasion we were more open, we were more trusting, we didn't have the template of that other great session burdening us.
So we were kind of free to let happen what would happen and then letting happen what happens.
Suddenly we're able to...
I'm learning, like, how many years have I been gigging?
Like, I'm still learning this.
Like, okay, like, if I could just surrender my agenda at the beginning of the gig, and have a bit of trust and faith and not try to have it so locked in, I have a chance of
actually getting somewhere, you know?
But if I put the getting somewhere as the...
as the main objective, I probably won't get anywhere, you know.
But if I put as an objective that I'll trust the situation and I'm willing to take the chance and the risk of, you know, just letting happen how it's going to happen, then I
have a, then there's a very good chance that gig will actually work.
I think that's a great way to...
we're coming near the end now.
I have um a couple of other questions to ask you.
One of them is, I suppose maybe goes back to what we've kind of talked the whole way through anyway, but your idea of an ideal session.
I suppose my ideal session involves musical friends, people that I know, people that I have lot of experience with, people for whom we have a lot of shared repertoire.
That brings me back close to home, like maybe sitting down with Mary Mac or Brian Donnellan or Andrew.
uh
you know, like anybody like that, you know, that's like in my immediate comfort zone, you know.
Lovely.
I have stolen a tradition from other podcasts.
They usually get their last guest to leave a question for their next guest.
So I have think that's kind of a nice thing.
So I'm using that as well.
So the last guest has left this question for you.
What are the two or three words you most dread hearing at a session?
ah
I'm straight here in a session.
I don't have to think about this now.
I am thinking but let's see.
Yeah, yeah, have my chair.
whereas some people would think that is their highlight of the session.
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I must remember to never say those words to you.
Yeah, I feel so awkward like as soon as somebody said like I feel like but hold on a second like I don't want to disrupt like you know it's like yeah I say it's anyway it has
happened
because you can so enjoy it from where you are.
But thank you so, so much, Martin.
It has been a pleasure to chat to you.
Okay.
What a privilege to have Martin Hayes with us today.
His stories and insights into traditional music are truly inspiring.
There's plenty more to come on In Tune with Tradition and next week I'll be joined by Lunasa flute player, Kevin Crawford.
If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe, leave a review or visit SessionEtiquette.com where you can let me know what session challenges you have or
questions you'd like to ask.
future guests.
Until next time, keep tuning in with tradition.
you