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Hello and welcome to In Tune with Tradition, perspectives on session etiquette in Irish
traditional music.

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I'm Tara Connaghan and in this podcast, I talk to musicians and lovers of Irish
traditional music, exploring the nitty gritty of the unwritten session etiquette rules.

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But before we dive in, I just want to say a huge thank you to everyone who listened to the
first episode.

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because there were almost 400 downloads in the first week, which puts the podcast in the
top 10 % of first time podcasts.

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And that is thanks to you.

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Your support has blown me away and I am so grateful to have you as part of this new
community.

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If you haven't subscribed yet, maybe now is a good time.

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Just hit the follow button so you never miss an episode.

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Today I'm joined by Martin Hayes for the second episode.

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Martin and I have both performed with the Irish Memory Orchestra, a unique ensemble that
plays entirely from memory instead of sheet notation.

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The orchestra features a mix of traditional Irish, classical, jazz and popular musicians,
and was set up primarily for the performance of new compositions and arrangements by

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renowned Irish composer and guitarist Dave Flynn.

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Today's music is one such piece featuring Martin Hayes, Dennis Cahill and the Irish Memory
Orchestra, entitled Music for the Departed, composed by Dave and recorded live in a cave

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at a hydroelectric power station just south of Dublin, Ireland.

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If you'd like to hear the piece live, I'm told it might feature in a concert by Martin and
Dave at the Masters of Tradition Festival on August 21st this year.

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But that's a secret, so don't tell him I told you.

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Anyway, let's get tucked into the conversation.

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I hope you enjoy the episode.

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uh

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Good morning Martin Hayes, how are you doing?

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Thank you so much for joining me.

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We have today Martin fiddle player renowned and very well respected fiddle player from
County Clare.

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I'm told a crossroads in the parish in his field is Kilanena, Feakle and Tulla

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That covers me, yeah, that's the whole thing there.

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And considering I lived in clare for 10 years, I have to get it right.

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I didn't realise you lived...

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Did you live in Ballyvaughan Vohana or was it some...

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No.

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No, I lived between Ennis and then in Barefield between the two parishes mostly.

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And actually the other thing that we have in common is you mentioned the Tulla Ceili band
and I played with the Tulla for a while as well.

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I was your dep.

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Very good.

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I see like I'm as lathair a lot like you know and and and there's a bit like going going
on I never know about it.

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well, uh I I hoped was an enjoyable experience anyway

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It was thoroughly enjoyable.

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We did Electric Picnic one year.

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It was on the Body and Soul stage and the crowd went wild.

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mean, crazy.

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And the sound guy was up on a tree and he took a video of everybody doing like the Walls
of Limerick or the Siege of Ennis or something dancing about.

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was just brilliant.

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So anyway, we'll start with our podcast.

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The first question I normally ask people is what does an Irish music session mean to you?

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Well, for me, I know it's about music, but for me, it's very often like a social occasion.

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I wouldn't like to go to a session, for example, and not know anybody and not have a
conversation.

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That would not be a very satisfying experience for me.

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So it's lot about friendship and a lot about kind of connection and just like a social
outing.

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Now.

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I'd like it to be good music as well, you know, but you can't always guarantee that.

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How does, I suppose, being fairly well known, as you're probably one of the main, you
know, if somebody mentions Irish music, they probably think of your name.

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So how does that affect, I suppose, you participating in sessions?

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Is it a wee bit of a pressure?

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Well, all right, like I'm talking here and I'm very comfortable talking.

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I have no problem with that.

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I'm very comfortable getting up on the stage.

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All very good.

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But I'm actually shy behind all of that.

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I'm actually shy.

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So walking into a pub with a fiddle is probably just as difficult for me as anybody.

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And the one thing like...

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One of the things that causes me some anxiety is if because I am well known or something
like that somebody will get up and give me their chair.

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Now that's like to me a horror story like you know I'd like like I want this to be kind of
as un...

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you know like it's Little disruption as possible.

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I just want to kind of I want to be quiet I want to not be noticed I want to like a lot of
things that probably can't happen like but

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Like, yeah, I want to be unnoticed, if that makes any sense.

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But that's not so easily achieved these days, so anyway.

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Yeah, I hear you.

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Yeah, even, you know, I suppose even in Donegal, I would feel the same if I go into a
session.

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Sometimes you just want to relax and listen or...

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You know, like I don't want to get every tune in the world played like and I want to take
plenty of breaks.

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One I remember many years ago like sessions were different like when I was younger in that
like they weren't organized to the degree that they are now.

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In other words, like a session could happen, it might happen, it could happen.

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Like it was sporadic and it was just a few people would kind of say, look we should go to

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Lena Hanrahans for a few tunes, I we should go to the Dublins and Feakle for a few tunes
or something like that.

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And those were the spots we went to for a session in those times.

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so it would be just a loose gathering of friends, I suppose, you know.

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And you might let some people know.

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And there'd be some people you mightn't let know, you know.

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But anyway, it would be a loose gathering of friends.

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uh

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But I remember this one night where were all, Paddy Carty was going to come down to Feakle
so we all go to Peppers for a night with Paddy Carty.

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And that was the time when people could smoke indoors and drink whatever they wanted.

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So it was, I just remember the casual pace of the session.

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There'd be a tune played, a cigarette lit, a conversation started, more chat, a sip of a
drink.

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followed by a conversation that would lead to a tune, that would lead to another bit of
conversation, that would lead to another bit of tune.

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And there wasn't this frenzy of like, we've got to get all my tunes in here, or let's not
waste any time, just keep playing, playing, playing, playing.

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And I go, no, let's make sure this is relaxed, social, and enjoyable, you know?

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In that sense, in a human sense, you know?

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Do think that that comes from more people that are learning?

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Or does that happen to people who are seasoned musicians as well?

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maybe they're just less worried about having to play all the tunes they know because
they've been playing for years, maybe it's the newer ones, new people that are coming that

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are...

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I mean, I get the sense, like, I mean, I do teach some music and, like, the issue of
playing in sessions comes up a lot because that's the benchmark for many people.

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Like, you know, this is, I go and play in the session and that will define whether I'm
functioning as a musician or not, like, how well I can get on in that environment.

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So consequently, there's a lot of stress around it.

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Like, people are not sure whether they validly belong in the session or whether

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the session might be operating at a level beyond them?

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they good enough to be playing and how many tunes do need to know and should you know
every tune there is?

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And how comfortable are you just sitting out while somebody plays a tune that you don't
know?

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Are you mortified like if somebody plays a tune and you can't play?

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There are a lot of issues like that that I think create a lot of anxiety and tension.

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So sometimes like, people aren't getting to play the tunes that they know, like the minute
an opening comes in with their tune, know, like, okay, I'm getting in with it.

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And it seemed like, you know, I suppose like I see anxiety sometimes in those situations,
you know.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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m

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What's the saying?

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Keep calm and just let things happen.

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Like we say, the session is a very common thing now, but if you think about it
historically, um a session could only have happened within a geographic area where people

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could have travelled, for example, meaning that you were almost certainly playing within
the confines of your own repertoire and comfort zone.

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Like, you know, when you met people, the issue of knowing the tunes and not knowing the
tunes was largely solved by where you were and...

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like who you knew.

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But now, know, people are from everywhere all the time, they don't know each other,
there's no sense of what the repertoire might be.

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So I still feel there's room for growth and development in our understanding of what a
session is.

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I don't believe that it's a settled thing, you know.

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I like that.

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I'm writing down that growth and development.

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Well, know, in like even the sense of what the etiquette is, you know, like in a session,
you know, because like one time, I'm not saying that this was a good etiquette, like, but

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you nearly have had to buy a drink to get to sit at the table, like, you know, there was a
sense of that, like if you bought around the drinks, you were already in the session, you

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know.

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You know, like there was, yeah, and the other thing was like if you like,

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the older players would have had a sense of where you actually couldn't sit down to play
unless somebody asked you.

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Like you couldn't actually go in and sit down and open up your instrument, sit down and
play.

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Somebody would say, but did you bring your fiddle?

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Bring it over, come on, sit down and play, you know.

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And that way, like your sense and your feeling of belonging and being part of it is
already psychologically sorted out, you know.

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Whereas if you have to kind of burst in there,

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with your fiddle and decide to get a chair and not know who's there and open your fiddle
and start.

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That's a lot of, you know.

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Yeah, and that's a lot on you.

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I have difficulty with that as well.

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Like, I definitely would not walk in and just join in the session straight away.

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I would definitely do a bit of standing around until somebody says, here, do you want to
sit in and play or, you know, something like that, you know.

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Yeah, have you ever had a session in recent years where people go, you've got a fiddle, do
you play?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, I haven't had that, no.

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Yeah, well, I suppose like if I'm, you know, if I'm playing like locally around Feakle or
something like that, people don't give a damn, you know.

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mean, you know, yeah, that wouldn't be an issue, you know.

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Well it's your local, you know.

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Yeah but I mean if I was going into a session where I didn't really know anybody, know
different part of the country didn't know anybody, I just wouldn't.

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I wouldn't sit down and take out my fiddle, ever.

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Yeah, it's a tricky one and you'd wonder if there shouldn't be like, maybe this podcast is
about that, maybe kind of saying, okay, let's think about this and let's see what are the

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problems, are there solutions out there?

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Maybe people listening to this will have ideas and will have stories that can kind of shed
some light on this, you know.

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I'm hoping to interview lots of people from all different backgrounds and from different
levels, standards, even pub ah owners, so people on the periphery as well that oh can look

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in and see.

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And even people who know nothing about Irish music, just to see what their perspective
would be.

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I think it's good to see as many perspectives as possible.

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I think so, yeah.

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I think you're right about that.

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um Yeah, there's, yeah, now that I think about it, there's probably a lot to explore in
that whole area that you've devoted this podcast to, you know?

149
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And I mean, like, for some people, the definition of traditional music is the session, you
know?

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I wouldn't necessarily think so.

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think, like, it's...

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like traditional music can obviously manifest in lot of different forms on stage,
digitally, all kinds of ways.

153
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But uh there is something that happens in a session sometimes, a kind of uh a freedom I
suppose.

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that people can experience that would be difficult, be a challenging freedom to experience
on the stage, know, or in a recording studio or something like that.

155
00:14:50,982 --> 00:15:02,282
So the sessions are very valuable that way in that you can kind of get to a place that's,
you know, I mean, and you can get to a place playing for set dancers in a Ceili Band as

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well, you know, there are all kinds of ways of accessing this music, but...

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The session I suppose is, I often worry or wonder or empathise with foreigners visiting
Ireland and saying I want to join in the session and really not, like all of the stuff

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that we're talking about, like the standing between them and having a relaxed, enjoyable
experience.

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It would great if we could put some answers before them.

160
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Yeah, hopefully that that might that this podcast might help just even hear the things
like, God, I wouldn't sit down in a session without, you know, without knowing somebody.

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Those kind of simple things that I suppose maybe we're told as kids when you're growing
up, possibly, you know, and you don't even know, remember the time that you're actually

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told it, but it's kind of percolating there the whole time.

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Yeah.

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Don't go in there.

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You don't know, you know, don't know those musicians or.

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About learning, heard something there recently that I thought was very wise, was that
like, kids don't listen to what their parents do, but they sure as hell imitate what they

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do.

168
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That's so true.

169
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So in that sense, we may actually be just simply imitating the behaviours that we saw
growing up, know, among the older musicians.

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And I think we probably have internalized that, you know.

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think that's probably you've hit the nail on the head.

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Yeah, I think that's the first person now uh I've encountered saying that and that just
seems to make sense.

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Yeah, mean, we do.

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I mean, my initial world of sessions was always in a world of familiarity.

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I'd be playing with Mary McNamara or Andrew or my father and a few more players.

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It would never be huge groupings.

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uh

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and like it was in familiar environments with familiar people.

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So that was my sense oh of what a session was, you know.

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Now, like, you know, as we were saying there earlier, that has obviously changed, you
know, quite a bit, you know.

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And, you know, people are, you know, rightfully, like, confused by it, I think, you know.

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Like, I remember talking to somebody in UL there one time, many years ago, and like,

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They thought that there had been sessions of music in Feakle seven nights a week, uh for
infinity, like it had been going on forever.

184
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And neither of those two, like it hadn't been going on forever, and it wasn't every night,
and it wasn't in every bar, in fact it was quite sporadic.

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But I suppose Doolin, for example, would be a place where a session culture is...

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kind of embedded there for a really, really long time at this stage, you know.

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It's very sporadic and doing all which is kind of nice so it's not too organized.

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Yeah, yeah, there's there's there's for and against with that, you know, I, you know, I
can see like if I was working for the Irish Tourist Board or something like that, I'd be

189
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going, come on, let's get those sessions organized.

190
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We got tourists who want to see them, you know.

191
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On the other hand, like, you know, I can imagine the pub owner thinking, yeah, let's get
this more organized.

192
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But um from a musical point of view, I suppose I like the kind of impromptu kind of thing.

193
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I grew up with that, you know.

194
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I love it too, because I like try to explain to people that for me it feels like that's
where the magic can happen when there's something that's a surprise.

195
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It's not too kind of that it happens all the time.

196
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I think, for example, one factor of those sessions long ago was, of course, nobody was
getting paid.

197
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And what would happen is the pub owner, if they were friendly to music, would at least
provide drink.

198
00:19:21,008 --> 00:19:28,374
And if you were in Lena Hanrahans, almost certainly she would provide drink.

199
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:38,668
and bring out sandwiches, you know, and so there was a lot of like hospitality and welcome
for it, but like it wasn't seen as a kind of a having a financial thing.

200
00:19:38,668 --> 00:19:53,060
Now, if you're paid to play a session and you don't and you're not enjoying the few tunes,
you're not as comfortable taking a long break, you know, or you're not as comfortable, you

201
00:19:53,060 --> 00:19:58,074
know, going home earlier than you might have or there's a lot of

202
00:19:58,798 --> 00:20:04,670
kind of unnatural things that begin to happen all of a sudden, once there's a little bit
of a contract, you know?

203
00:20:04,670 --> 00:20:05,731
Yes.

204
00:20:06,826 --> 00:20:12,251
It's funny because I do say to the local pub I don't want payment because then I'm under
pressure.

205
00:20:12,251 --> 00:20:13,302
I don't want to be under pressure.

206
00:20:13,302 --> 00:20:14,513
want to enjoy it.

207
00:20:14,513 --> 00:20:16,502
So I'll be in when I'm in.

208
00:20:16,502 --> 00:20:19,962
I think there's something to be said for that.

209
00:20:19,962 --> 00:20:24,562
No, I know that there's actually like not to kind of...

210
00:20:24,562 --> 00:20:30,962
I mean, there's the other side of that too, which is that there are a good many musicians
now who actually make their living.

211
00:20:30,962 --> 00:20:34,622
Kind of like having a regular session circuit.

212
00:20:34,622 --> 00:20:39,782
I used to run two sessions in Chicago many years ago.

213
00:20:39,882 --> 00:20:46,162
Like that was when like the idea of running a session kind of became a thing, you know,
and

214
00:20:46,438 --> 00:20:57,325
But I enjoyed it thoroughly though, you know, I kind of Like once I'd get it up and going
like I'd have a kind of a hands-off I wouldn't be playing all the time, you know, but I

215
00:20:57,325 --> 00:21:02,458
get things rolling like, you know and and I

216
00:21:05,394 --> 00:21:11,899
It became largely a very social occasion as well.

217
00:21:12,380 --> 00:21:25,532
I'd have these people I would meet every Wednesday night in Chicago and uh boy, that was
something I looked forward to and the friendships deepened over time and so then it was a

218
00:21:25,532 --> 00:21:28,114
really important thing to have.

219
00:21:29,144 --> 00:21:36,218
But yeah, but navigating the sense, suppose, like the more you're paid, the worse it will
get, suppose.

220
00:21:36,218 --> 00:21:46,743
uh like, you know, eh it's trying to maintain a kind of a relaxed kind of feeling to it.

221
00:21:46,743 --> 00:21:52,718
And the other thing about sessions, I realized is like, yeah.

222
00:21:52,718 --> 00:21:55,058
It can't always be great music.

223
00:21:55,058 --> 00:21:57,318
It can't always be about that.

224
00:21:57,318 --> 00:22:00,658
There's got to be more to it than that as well.

225
00:22:01,798 --> 00:22:09,978
I've seen musicians get bent out of shape because somebody is sinking the boat over there.

226
00:22:12,318 --> 00:22:14,818
Somebody is causing a problem.

227
00:22:17,131 --> 00:22:19,387
I suppose, yeah, where are they coming from as well?

228
00:22:19,387 --> 00:22:23,078
Are they maybe coming from that that's the only session they've got out in months?

229
00:22:23,078 --> 00:22:23,969
Yeah.

230
00:22:24,986 --> 00:22:27,998
Who knows, you Who knows?

231
00:22:27,998 --> 00:22:37,004
like, I used to, one thing I used to say I was teaching one time was like, you know, if
you, if you have

232
00:22:39,002 --> 00:22:40,383
musical ideas.

233
00:22:40,383 --> 00:22:47,287
Like if you come to the session with I know how this tune goes and this is how it should
go, you're gonna have a problem.

234
00:22:47,287 --> 00:22:55,772
Like you're gonna have a problem because there's no certainty whatsoever that everybody's
gonna see that piece of music the same way.

235
00:22:55,772 --> 00:23:07,198
So seeking the common denominator, know, like you know finding the point at which
everybody can actually contribute, you know.

236
00:23:07,867 --> 00:23:20,015
And as I said to some people, two versions of the Bucks of Oranmore Gone Array is worse
music than Twinkle Twinkle Little Star played by everybody together.

237
00:23:20,156 --> 00:23:24,849
know what I mean?

238
00:23:24,849 --> 00:23:34,426
No matter how clever you think you're getting with how well you play, it's just a cat
fight if everybody can't be on board.

239
00:23:34,898 --> 00:23:44,887
But at the same time it is there is that kind of almost like Chinese whispers about it
because it's you know there as you say everybody has a Different take on what the music is

240
00:23:44,887 --> 00:23:47,634
but as long as it kind of can gel with each other

241
00:23:47,634 --> 00:23:57,108
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes like there when you hear traditional musicians play
Together there's there's two ways.

242
00:23:57,108 --> 00:24:10,154
I mean in a more modern sense uh Like like players fuse like like the ornaments fuse
you'll hear a concertina and pipes and and the triplets and the rolls are gels together

243
00:24:10,154 --> 00:24:15,116
and it's completely unified like and and I get what that is

244
00:24:15,254 --> 00:24:23,456
If, no, as you say, you sat on the stage with the Tulla Ceili band, like, you get another
thing, which is you get a wash of the tune.

245
00:24:23,896 --> 00:24:33,439
With a lot of little intricacies, like going off in different directions at different
times, where all the players having slightly variant versions of the tune.

246
00:24:33,439 --> 00:24:34,839
So you get the...

247
00:24:34,839 --> 00:24:38,860
You know, so, like, I do feel like...

248
00:24:44,684 --> 00:24:56,325
The session, we're better off not looking for that tight fusion of playing in an open
session.

249
00:24:58,208 --> 00:25:02,471
Like kind of just going with the large wash of melody.

250
00:25:02,752 --> 00:25:04,954
I find that quite enjoyable too.

251
00:25:06,018 --> 00:25:12,861
I love that the session can be kind of small enough that I can hear the other musicians so
that I can bounce off.

252
00:25:12,861 --> 00:25:21,965
If I hear something, you if I hear you play like a note or two, I'm like, oh, I'm going to
add that in and, you know, see if they notice that I've added in and then they notice it

253
00:25:21,965 --> 00:25:24,500
and they notice something that I've done and then.

254
00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:26,953
Yeah, yeah, then you have communication.

255
00:25:26,953 --> 00:25:27,870
That's brilliant.

256
00:25:27,870 --> 00:25:29,702
uh

257
00:25:29,816 --> 00:25:35,065
Like should be a central focus of all playing together, know, communication, you know.

258
00:25:35,298 --> 00:25:36,268
That's my favorite bit.

259
00:25:36,268 --> 00:25:42,026
mean, that's for me where the magic happens and I get all excited and buzzing and then
that could keep me buzzing for weeks.

260
00:25:42,026 --> 00:25:51,869
I know, you know, in my own, like of course my own life is largely not about the session
at this stage but mostly about performance.

261
00:25:51,869 --> 00:26:02,592
But like it's the same thing with performance, like if I get it right on an occasion it
lives with me for a long time, like it offers sustenance for quite a while and it keeps my

262
00:26:02,592 --> 00:26:10,234
faith in the music and what can be achieved in the music, it keeps all that alive for me.

263
00:26:10,488 --> 00:26:13,474
I mean, I suppose that's exactly what yourself and Dennis were doing the whole time.

264
00:26:13,474 --> 00:26:14,499
Your good friend Dennis.

265
00:26:14,499 --> 00:26:15,162
uh

266
00:26:15,162 --> 00:26:28,774
yeah, we were kind of communicating like it was definitely, you know, something that we
had built up between us for sure over many years, you know, but it was, And it didn't

267
00:26:28,774 --> 00:26:36,000
always work like I mean but a lot of time, uh most of the time it probably did, to some
level anyway, work.

268
00:26:36,461 --> 00:26:41,185
you know, yeah, it's like music, it's like...

269
00:26:41,185 --> 00:26:42,082
uh

270
00:26:42,082 --> 00:26:52,329
Getting back to the social thing again, it's about friendship and it's about trust and
it's about openness and it's about tolerance and all of these things.

271
00:26:53,550 --> 00:26:56,212
You need all of these things to be in a band.

272
00:26:56,212 --> 00:26:59,174
You need all these things to be in a session as well.

273
00:27:00,622 --> 00:27:10,551
Do you think that maybe, we mentioned about the, you know, once a session, you know, if
you're paid that kind of pressure is a bit more on you when you're in the session, that

274
00:27:10,551 --> 00:27:17,657
maybe something like the basic income for artists payment which is coming close to the end
of its pilot scheme at the moment.

275
00:27:17,657 --> 00:27:18,778
Yeah.

276
00:27:18,778 --> 00:27:27,936
That allows maybe that kind of allows people to not be under so much pressure for
financial gain because there's an income coming in every week.

277
00:27:28,024 --> 00:27:32,094
But that's kind of the idea of that in a way.

278
00:27:32,094 --> 00:27:35,460
Were you part of the board or the committee or something?

279
00:27:35,460 --> 00:27:49,178
I was, yeah, I was, yeah, like, well, yeah, well, we kind of, yeah, and in fairness, the
Green Party had put it on their agenda for government before, before that government was

280
00:27:49,178 --> 00:27:52,540
formed, before the pandemic.

281
00:27:52,540 --> 00:27:57,123
so, so we had like a Green Party minister for the arts.

282
00:27:57,123 --> 00:27:59,705
So we're going, okay, all right.

283
00:27:59,705 --> 00:28:02,726
So it seemed like a very, um

284
00:28:02,770 --> 00:28:12,507
It seemed like a great way of dealing with the arts because we hear a lot about arts
funding and certainly there is always a need for arts funding but of course it goes into

285
00:28:12,507 --> 00:28:30,589
buildings, goes into administration, it goes into organisations, it goes into all kinds of
things and it takes it a while to filter down to the actual artists and almost none of it,

286
00:28:30,589 --> 00:28:31,840
almost none.

287
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,842
of the Arts Council funding ends up in the hands of like everyday traditional musicians.

288
00:28:36,842 --> 00:28:38,033
Almost none.

289
00:28:38,073 --> 00:28:48,138
But this program, I felt like, you know, was a good way for to kind of just start putting
the money in at the grassroots instead, you know.

290
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:54,696
I have to admit I was one of the lucky 2,000 people that have been on that for the last
three years.

291
00:28:54,696 --> 00:28:55,798
you were?

292
00:28:55,798 --> 00:29:05,609
It has allowed me to give up my job so that I could then just play music, not be under
pressure to have to financial gain for the music.

293
00:29:05,609 --> 00:29:06,862
ah

294
00:29:06,862 --> 00:29:08,715
I am delighted to hear that.

295
00:29:09,214 --> 00:29:16,073
I'm delighted you were on that committee that dreamt up that because it has been amazing.

296
00:29:16,194 --> 00:29:20,879
Well, I wouldn't claim any particular credit myself for it.

297
00:29:20,940 --> 00:29:27,628
Other than that, there was one moment of doubt about it uh when somebody from the
department came back.

298
00:29:27,669 --> 00:29:30,431
And the argument was that, like...

299
00:29:32,094 --> 00:29:39,076
as a uh trial study that maybe people in the arts weren't a good sample of the population
of how this would work.

300
00:29:39,076 --> 00:29:41,417
know I mean?

301
00:29:41,717 --> 00:29:48,619
They wanted something for the general public, really, and that this was the argument
against maybe doing it in government.

302
00:29:48,619 --> 00:29:57,001
So I remember I go, no, actually, the arts are actually the best sample group for this
reason.

303
00:29:57,001 --> 00:30:00,522
I said, because everything is becoming the geek economy.

304
00:30:00,618 --> 00:30:04,039
everybody working everywhere is starting to become self-employed.

305
00:30:04,039 --> 00:30:08,921
You could be self-employed working for Google at this stage.

306
00:30:08,981 --> 00:30:17,584
And so I said, no, it's actually a very fine example of where the economy seems to be
headed towards the gig economy, quote unquote.

307
00:30:17,584 --> 00:30:20,525
And so I'm like, we're doing gigs.

308
00:30:20,545 --> 00:30:22,426
So there you go.

309
00:30:23,250 --> 00:30:24,592
Well thank you.

310
00:30:25,337 --> 00:30:27,141
It has just been amazing.

311
00:30:27,490 --> 00:30:42,374
I think the interesting point about it or something that we understood going through that
was that it wasn't necessarily like it might appear like a kind of a uh like, oh this is

312
00:30:42,374 --> 00:30:48,056
just costing too much money and you're just giving money to people just to have fun and do
their things.

313
00:30:48,056 --> 00:30:56,526
But we were explained that no actually you know what it is like sometimes people are
forced to choose between these things like uh

314
00:30:56,526 --> 00:31:05,326
Like somebody says, well, you can go on the dole for a while, you can get social welfare
for a while, but then you have to apply for jobs and you have to, and you're going, okay,

315
00:31:05,326 --> 00:31:06,286
like so.

316
00:31:06,286 --> 00:31:10,594
So then if you're on the social welfare and somebody offers you a gig, you can't take it.

317
00:31:10,594 --> 00:31:11,560
Yeah.

318
00:31:12,366 --> 00:31:15,706
So we are pushed out of it.

319
00:31:15,766 --> 00:31:24,484
So the question was, OK, could we just make it a simple, straightforward thing and allow
it as a base income to allow artists to actually...

320
00:31:24,946 --> 00:31:26,786
Because lots of everything.

321
00:31:27,346 --> 00:31:29,906
The government pays for teachers.

322
00:31:30,386 --> 00:31:35,966
We have art in our society and I think people think it just happens.

323
00:31:35,966 --> 00:31:37,746
It doesn't just happen.

324
00:31:37,866 --> 00:31:40,946
People have to take time out to do it.

325
00:31:40,946 --> 00:31:41,698
Anyway.

326
00:31:41,698 --> 00:31:43,206
delighted you got it

327
00:31:44,706 --> 00:31:49,233
What would you advise people in terms of listening?

328
00:31:49,474 --> 00:31:59,430
Just listening and overall either listening to music, listening to the sessions, but in
general I suppose listening towards sessions.

329
00:32:00,290 --> 00:32:11,413
Like from a musician point of view, if I was saying for a musician to listen, would like,
because we have a tendency to listen with the, what is that?

330
00:32:11,453 --> 00:32:15,134
And, and, that'd be a nice tune for me.

331
00:32:15,134 --> 00:32:29,438
And, you know, and we kind of get like analytical, but I, I would say to kind of listen
kind of in a more relaxed, open kind of way and just like,

332
00:32:30,284 --> 00:32:35,235
What's more important with a piece of music is to kind of absorb the experience of it, you
know?

333
00:32:35,655 --> 00:32:38,806
And to like, like listening is active too, you know?

334
00:32:38,806 --> 00:32:43,558
Like, like, like, you'll hear nothing good if you're not open to it.

335
00:32:43,558 --> 00:32:51,480
Like, you know, if you don't believe something good can happen and if you're not open to
that possibility, you're not going to hear anything.

336
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,620
Like, nothing is going to reach you.

337
00:32:53,620 --> 00:33:00,062
So, so if, like, we have to prepare ourselves to be reached by music as well, you know,
like.

338
00:33:00,150 --> 00:33:12,514
like to be in that open frame of mind, know, uh so that like you can go in and you can
hear a session then and it can actually, it can lift you, it can move you, it can do a lot

339
00:33:12,514 --> 00:33:15,435
of things to you uh if you're open.

340
00:33:15,715 --> 00:33:19,597
But you can be in the corner with your arms crossed as well.

341
00:33:19,597 --> 00:33:23,058
You can like not be open.

342
00:33:23,372 --> 00:33:31,175
And therefore, you can make a judgment that it's useless and it's no good, you know,
because you're not feeling anything from it.

343
00:33:31,175 --> 00:33:34,540
But if you prejudge it, you won't hear it.

344
00:33:35,456 --> 00:33:40,408
And what about um to those maybe that are learning as well, listening for them?

345
00:33:40,408 --> 00:33:42,059
Yeah, I...

346
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,341
like for me...

347
00:33:44,641 --> 00:33:46,563
okay, like how did I listen?

348
00:33:46,563 --> 00:33:47,924
Like when I was learning...

349
00:33:47,924 --> 00:33:58,432
um I didn't listen from the point of view of acquiring, okay?

350
00:33:59,553 --> 00:34:03,136
I didn't learn any tune that I didn't really like.

351
00:34:03,136 --> 00:34:06,278
um

352
00:34:06,503 --> 00:34:08,353
I only learned tunes I really liked.

353
00:34:08,353 --> 00:34:10,326
I only played tunes I really liked.

354
00:34:10,326 --> 00:34:14,790
um And I listened to players.

355
00:34:14,790 --> 00:34:19,433
Like, you know, could be Tony McMahan or it could be, you know, whatever, you know.

356
00:34:19,433 --> 00:34:23,477
And I just got the feeling of their music.

357
00:34:23,477 --> 00:34:28,400
Like, it was the feeling of their music that spoke to me first.

358
00:34:28,842 --> 00:34:34,406
so, like, maybe as a musician I would have gone searching for that.

359
00:34:34,624 --> 00:34:45,193
in my own way then, you know, after that searching for the feeling, because you're
actually searching for the result of music, like the outcome of music, instead of

360
00:34:45,193 --> 00:34:51,348
searching for like, okay, I'll get that triplet here and I'll figure that out and I'll
stick it in here.

361
00:34:51,348 --> 00:35:02,917
You know, like, you know, you're looking for the end result of music upon yourself, the
end result of music in the room, the end result of music to the other listener, you know,

362
00:35:03,137 --> 00:35:03,958
and...

363
00:35:04,562 --> 00:35:12,668
And that, in a way, if you keep things on that level, it actually keeps things fairly
straightforward, you know?

364
00:35:12,808 --> 00:35:18,632
Like, you're less likely to get lost, like, trying to figure out what to do, you know?

365
00:35:19,753 --> 00:35:24,197
Like, nobody is moved from a collection of clever techniques.

366
00:35:24,197 --> 00:35:31,922
Like, it can be clever, but it doesn't actually necessarily do anything to you.

367
00:35:35,066 --> 00:35:41,326
I'm not against technique and I certainly can admire technique when I see it and I see
plenty of it.

368
00:35:42,046 --> 00:35:45,806
But it wouldn't be the driving thing for me either.

369
00:35:46,066 --> 00:35:47,426
I suppose that's the point.

370
00:35:47,426 --> 00:35:52,986
So from a listening point of view, I would have listened to players.

371
00:35:52,986 --> 00:35:56,966
I wasn't trying to get who's the best fiddler and I'm going to listen to the best fiddler.

372
00:35:56,966 --> 00:35:59,766
I wasn't really thinking that way.

373
00:36:00,597 --> 00:36:02,402
listening to the experience I suppose.

374
00:36:02,402 --> 00:36:12,488
Yeah, yeah, just like if, you know, I suppose we all have different temperaments, like so
different colourings of music like impact us in different ways, you know.

375
00:36:12,488 --> 00:36:21,634
I I liked kind of melancholic music, like I just liked it, you know, and so I was always
drawn to that, you know.

376
00:36:22,634 --> 00:36:34,382
Respect for, because I think maybe that leads on from listening, respect for the players
that are there or maybe what has gone before people.

377
00:36:35,344 --> 00:36:36,744
That's important.

378
00:36:36,865 --> 00:36:44,192
I'm just thinking for people, know, if anybody's listened to this from, you know, another
planet that hasn't grown up in Ireland.

379
00:36:44,192 --> 00:36:47,503
Respecting the older musicians is important.

380
00:36:47,844 --> 00:36:51,025
I put myself in with the older ones now at this stage.

381
00:36:51,025 --> 00:36:53,866
I'm looking forward to that when that happens.

382
00:36:53,866 --> 00:37:05,711
anyway, in my case, a lot of the people that would have deeply influenced me have already
passed on.

383
00:37:05,711 --> 00:37:13,374
um Musically, I think it was very important to understand them.

384
00:37:14,190 --> 00:37:31,309
to get where they were coming from, to get what they were trying to say with their music
and to maybe on some level internalise that as well, try and carry that baton, try and

385
00:37:31,530 --> 00:37:33,171
keep going with that.

386
00:37:34,153 --> 00:37:35,514
And then like...

387
00:37:35,788 --> 00:37:40,261
Well, I suppose this pertains maybe more to being a performing musician.

388
00:37:40,261 --> 00:37:48,865
I remember I'm doing certain things and I'm saying to myself, you know, Junior Crehan
wouldn't actually like this.

389
00:37:49,146 --> 00:37:53,748
And my father would be dubious about it too.

390
00:37:53,748 --> 00:37:55,729
And it was troubling me.

391
00:37:58,271 --> 00:38:04,554
But then I had a little insight come to me, which was that...

392
00:38:04,654 --> 00:38:07,554
Actually, didn't matter what that was, really.

393
00:38:09,726 --> 00:38:15,369
But it did matter what I thought about them a lot.

394
00:38:15,590 --> 00:38:18,791
It mattered to me that I understood them.

395
00:38:19,132 --> 00:38:23,814
It was less important that they understood me because they'd already sorted out.

396
00:38:23,895 --> 00:38:28,558
The importance of the communication was that I could understand them.

397
00:38:28,558 --> 00:38:36,222
after that then, you know, because like, like otherwise, like I don't want to get caught
like in a slavish.

398
00:38:36,462 --> 00:38:50,300
uh traditionalism, know, like where like nothing can change, nothing can move, like you
know, and there's an orthodox way of doing it and that's it and there's the wrong and the

399
00:38:50,300 --> 00:38:56,952
right and the good and the bad and so I try to steer away from that as much as I can.

400
00:38:56,952 --> 00:39:00,429
So it's having your own, but with respect in what's there.

401
00:39:00,598 --> 00:39:14,862
Correct, like, you know, not just a flippant respect, a respect of like really getting who
they were and getting the, not just respect because they're old, but respect because they

402
00:39:14,862 --> 00:39:21,124
were carrying tradition, respect because there was deep insight in their way of thinking
about music and playing.

403
00:39:21,124 --> 00:39:23,535
Like my Junior Crehan, had insight.

404
00:39:23,535 --> 00:39:25,725
Bobby Casey had insight.

405
00:39:26,326 --> 00:39:28,226
Like they were...

406
00:39:29,603 --> 00:39:35,581
They thought more deeply about that than one would imagine, I think.

407
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,880
How does a person go about respecting that?

408
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,755
does that come into a thing?

409
00:39:46,166 --> 00:39:47,727
Yeah, how does that manifest?

410
00:39:47,727 --> 00:39:49,929
How do we see that in the real world?

411
00:39:50,670 --> 00:39:58,877
Well, I suppose like in practical terms for me, it is literally understanding what they're
saying when they play.

412
00:39:58,877 --> 00:40:01,719
Like that's the first part.

413
00:40:04,021 --> 00:40:11,327
there is a tendency like every teenager knows more than their parents, you know?

414
00:40:11,327 --> 00:40:13,489
And as time goes on, they don't.

415
00:40:13,489 --> 00:40:15,110
uh

416
00:40:15,222 --> 00:40:21,534
And eventually they realised their parents knew so much more than they had any clue about.

417
00:40:21,534 --> 00:40:24,485
It's the same in music.

418
00:40:25,125 --> 00:40:28,186
We kind of think, are those old players?

419
00:40:28,186 --> 00:40:34,307
We might just judge them by their technical skill level, which is fine.

420
00:40:34,507 --> 00:40:38,829
But there's a lot more to music than one's technical skill level.

421
00:40:38,829 --> 00:40:41,269
There's a lot of understanding.

422
00:40:45,324 --> 00:40:53,121
I remember people used to kind of dismiss Micho Russell and go, yeah, okay, all right, why
don't you do it?

423
00:40:55,844 --> 00:40:57,185
And you know what?

424
00:40:58,186 --> 00:41:01,990
Not that easy, not that easy to do.

425
00:41:01,990 --> 00:41:10,398
And so sometimes I think in terms of respecting older players, see if you could actually
do it.

426
00:41:12,018 --> 00:41:14,099
We all know how to mimic other musicians.

427
00:41:14,099 --> 00:41:16,010
We'll see if you could do it for real.

428
00:41:16,010 --> 00:41:21,218
Could you actually cast a bit of a spell like Junior Crehan did?

429
00:41:21,643 --> 00:41:24,864
And then you'll find out, maybe it's not so easy.

430
00:41:24,865 --> 00:41:27,746
So then your respect will automatically grow, I think.

431
00:41:28,224 --> 00:41:33,378
Yeah, so it's not just the way they tactically play it.

432
00:41:33,378 --> 00:41:35,558
no it's not, no there's more to it.

433
00:41:36,178 --> 00:41:42,958
Like I do gigs like right, if it was about how I technically played the thing I'd have it
solved.

434
00:41:43,938 --> 00:41:49,058
Like you know because I know how to play the tunes I'm going to play, I got it figured
out.

435
00:41:49,158 --> 00:41:58,976
But I know that actually how I'm feeling, how I'm thinking, you know just the sense of...

436
00:41:58,976 --> 00:42:00,767
what the music is and everything.

437
00:42:00,767 --> 00:42:14,054
All of that needs to actually be brought to the table in order for me to actually have a
good night of music, like something that's alive and real.

438
00:42:15,495 --> 00:42:22,298
the psychological subterranean part of this music is deep and vast.

439
00:42:22,778 --> 00:42:31,080
to get to a good place musically, there's just a whole range of other things in there.

440
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,531
for me that's always been more important.

441
00:42:33,531 --> 00:42:45,364
I might sound like I'm dismissing technique and technical skill, but I'm not really, but I
just know that there's so much more to it.

442
00:42:45,364 --> 00:42:46,365
it is...

443
00:42:47,145 --> 00:42:50,506
You know, when I was a kid, people...

444
00:42:51,606 --> 00:42:54,669
The word artist didn't apply to fiddle players.

445
00:42:54,830 --> 00:42:58,894
We weren't artists.

446
00:43:00,406 --> 00:43:05,041
I would hear highfalutin conversations about art maybe.

447
00:43:05,164 --> 00:43:07,456
like on a radio program or something like that.

448
00:43:07,456 --> 00:43:09,577
When I was a kid, I'd go, what bullshit?

449
00:43:09,577 --> 00:43:15,461
I'd be thinking, know, like nonsense, garbage talk, you know, just do the damn thing and
shut up.

450
00:43:15,461 --> 00:43:20,564
ah So like, I know that perspective.

451
00:43:20,585 --> 00:43:29,581
But then as time went on, I realized that like what it would take for a classical pianist
to interpret a piece of classical music.

452
00:43:29,581 --> 00:43:30,932
Yeah, does it take?

453
00:43:30,932 --> 00:43:31,912
Sure.

454
00:43:32,112 --> 00:43:34,954
But in the same vein as

455
00:43:34,954 --> 00:43:41,105
any other art form, they have to go to a deeper level of themselves to get to...

456
00:43:41,566 --> 00:43:54,611
like some deeper insight to get to a level of freedom of expression that is something far
more than the technical requirements of delivering.

457
00:43:54,611 --> 00:44:09,418
uh so I eventually ended up embracing the artist idea and saying, OK, well, I guess maybe
we are artists after all, and maybe we can think about it in those terms.

458
00:44:09,418 --> 00:44:10,838
And I found that

459
00:44:10,902 --> 00:44:21,327
Like being an artist actually brought me closer to kind of understanding Willie Clancy,
Joe Cooley, Tommy Potts.

460
00:44:21,767 --> 00:44:28,172
You know, like I was actually moving more towards that world then, you know.

461
00:44:28,172 --> 00:44:30,435
Yeah, I think I remember a similar time.

462
00:44:30,435 --> 00:44:33,989
It was in Clare actually, when I started working in the Arts Office.

463
00:44:33,989 --> 00:44:38,461
I was like, sure, it's not really relevant to me because I'm just a fiddler.

464
00:44:38,461 --> 00:44:41,515
That's, you see, this is exactly what we thought

465
00:44:41,515 --> 00:44:44,599
Just a trad musician, not relevant, but...

466
00:44:44,599 --> 00:44:53,913
And then I slowly got kind of, I suppose helped along to thinking that actually you are
creating something that is a piece of art.

467
00:44:54,028 --> 00:44:55,989
Yes, exactly.

468
00:44:55,989 --> 00:45:09,012
And many of the same things that go into making a piece of poetry are like, you know, I
know it's a performance art, like so it's a different from like writing a piece of poetry.

469
00:45:09,012 --> 00:45:20,601
But nonetheless, you do go into There's a similar world that we all can enter there, you
know, that makes the

470
00:45:20,662 --> 00:45:30,252
in our case, traditional music come alive or actually creates a poem for a poet, or a
piece of art for a painter.

471
00:45:30,993 --> 00:45:32,975
We're not that far apart.

472
00:45:33,075 --> 00:45:35,246
It seems like it, but we're not, actually.

473
00:45:35,246 --> 00:45:39,992
It like it's what's going on in the head and the heart maybe.

474
00:45:40,613 --> 00:45:44,396
That's how it transfers across rather than it's just notes.

475
00:45:44,396 --> 00:45:46,807
Yeah, exactly.

476
00:45:46,807 --> 00:45:58,134
And I think bringing your music in under that umbrella can be a bit of a trick because
sometimes our playing, if we're not careful, is on some kind of autopilot.

477
00:45:58,134 --> 00:46:03,557
And so we have to bring it in under some kind of conscious awareness.

478
00:46:05,799 --> 00:46:10,391
Paul Muldoon, the poet, said to me one time, he says, we are all doing the same thing.

479
00:46:10,391 --> 00:46:12,222
And I thought.

480
00:46:12,724 --> 00:46:13,818
He's right, know.

481
00:46:13,818 --> 00:46:14,447
He's right.

482
00:46:14,447 --> 00:46:17,068
We are all doing the same thing, actually.

483
00:46:17,878 --> 00:46:18,858
Mm-hmm.

484
00:46:19,659 --> 00:46:23,561
I have a website for this podcast.

485
00:46:23,561 --> 00:46:34,067
It's called SessionEtiquette.com and I have like a questionnaire that people can fill in
as well and so it's only launched very recently and there's been a huge response already

486
00:46:34,067 --> 00:46:39,538
but would you mind if I went through just picked out a couple of the questions that people
have?

487
00:46:39,538 --> 00:46:40,660
Of course, yeah.

488
00:46:42,210 --> 00:46:45,792
So one of questions I ask is, what is your biggest challenge in sessions?

489
00:46:45,792 --> 00:46:50,794
I have about 65 responses here at the moment, which is great.

490
00:46:51,155 --> 00:46:53,126
And they're from a varied viewpoint.

491
00:46:53,126 --> 00:47:02,501
I suppose there's people who consider themselves as completely new beginners, intermediate
and somewhere in between intermediate and advanced and then more advanced musicians.

492
00:47:02,501 --> 00:47:07,664
Almost 50 % of them would be of people that would consider themselves intermediate level.

493
00:47:07,664 --> 00:47:10,924
And then there's about a quarter advanced professional.

494
00:47:10,924 --> 00:47:12,720
That's a safe place to put yourself.

495
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:13,901
I'm intermediate for me,

496
00:47:17,179 --> 00:47:21,163
And then the rest are a mix of in between and beginner.

497
00:47:21,264 --> 00:47:23,847
So I'm just going to randomly select a couple of.

498
00:47:23,847 --> 00:47:26,690
So this is their challenge at a session.

499
00:47:28,448 --> 00:47:32,036
knowing if it's a truly open session or not.

500
00:47:32,542 --> 00:47:35,887
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's...

501
00:47:36,469 --> 00:47:37,330
Yeah.

502
00:47:39,892 --> 00:47:41,673
Like that's everything there.

503
00:47:41,673 --> 00:47:48,127
I mean, like it's like, before we first started talking about like that's it, you know.

504
00:47:48,808 --> 00:48:02,477
Well, I do think that, you know, like we could say to ourselves, OK, let's say that three
or four of us playing, we're having a lovely tune and some unknown musician turns up, OK,

505
00:48:02,737 --> 00:48:04,078
and we're thinking.

506
00:48:04,238 --> 00:48:12,006
this could fall apart now if the wrong person sits in this could fall apart what do we do?

507
00:48:14,730 --> 00:48:16,732
what is the right thing to do there?

508
00:48:16,752 --> 00:48:18,193
I mean like

509
00:48:20,518 --> 00:48:24,747
I think we have to invite that musician in.

510
00:48:24,747 --> 00:48:26,918
I just think so, you know.

511
00:48:26,918 --> 00:48:39,521
I I certainly like to invite people in and I think if somebody feels the same, you know,
you were talking about the whole conversation and connection thing at the start that it's

512
00:48:39,521 --> 00:48:45,337
not just about the music, but if that person can feel the social connection part.

513
00:48:45,398 --> 00:48:46,238
Yeah.

514
00:48:46,383 --> 00:48:55,334
If we're having conversations, for example, should it be possible for people to sit around
a circle and not know each other's names?

515
00:48:55,695 --> 00:48:58,898
Should we allow a situation like that to happen?

516
00:48:59,500 --> 00:49:00,331
I don't think so.

517
00:49:00,331 --> 00:49:01,682
I find that terrible.

518
00:49:04,366 --> 00:49:07,048
Although is that not an opportunity to get to know them?

519
00:49:07,570 --> 00:49:08,170
Yes.

520
00:49:08,170 --> 00:49:15,230
Oh right, so you're saying you wouldn't have a situation where you would have people that
you don't know the names because you just didn't bother to ask.

521
00:49:15,230 --> 00:49:26,959
Yeah, no, so I think it's important that the people get to at least say my name is Joe and
I'm from blah blah blah and what's your name and blah blah blah and I am and we introduce

522
00:49:26,959 --> 00:49:30,952
and kind of like I think we have a social obligation to do that like you

523
00:49:30,978 --> 00:49:32,164
That's lovely.

524
00:49:33,016 --> 00:49:34,087
Would it be basic?

525
00:49:34,087 --> 00:49:37,569
You would think about it like as basic courtesy, like in a way.

526
00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:51,519
I mean, just to kind of get people in and say, look at, we have these selections of tunes
we play here, you might know all of them.

527
00:49:51,540 --> 00:49:59,926
But if you're going to be coming back again another night, why don't you take out a tape
recorder and tape what we're playing here and get to know the tunes.

528
00:50:00,770 --> 00:50:05,686
we largely play the same selection most, Wednesday nights for example or something you
know.

529
00:50:05,934 --> 00:50:08,742
yeah, I mean that's how are we all learned

530
00:50:08,750 --> 00:50:20,890
yeah, that kind of thing, you know, I just say, okay, and then, you know, but like, I do
think that, like, this this thing about, like, over vigorous playing without social

531
00:50:20,890 --> 00:50:23,990
interaction is a bad method for the session.

532
00:50:24,710 --> 00:50:32,908
I feel like that we like we need to have, you know, human communication, like dialogue,
you know, in between.

533
00:50:32,908 --> 00:50:42,668
And I think if we have that dialogue, it reduces the anxiety on people who are worried
about being there, and then things can happen more organically.

534
00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:44,651
Yeah exactly, exactly.

535
00:50:46,592 --> 00:50:50,165
You can get a sense of the personalities of the people you're sitting with.

536
00:50:50,165 --> 00:50:52,477
You can get a sense of who they are.

537
00:50:52,477 --> 00:50:58,060
You could be intimidated by somebody because they have a certain kind of frown when they
play.

538
00:50:58,221 --> 00:51:02,444
You might think they're unfriendly but they can be very friendly.

539
00:51:02,444 --> 00:51:06,515
You can very easily misgauge these things

540
00:51:06,945 --> 00:51:09,609
Here's another part of a question.

541
00:51:10,653 --> 00:51:13,268
If there's a stool free is it fair game?

542
00:51:13,642 --> 00:51:15,163
I'd say so, yeah.

543
00:51:16,286 --> 00:51:17,127
I'd say so.

544
00:51:17,127 --> 00:51:21,673
But I would check that it's not the stool of somebody who just went to the Jacks, you
know?

545
00:51:23,817 --> 00:51:25,520
You know, hold on a second.

546
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:26,961
I'm coming back.

547
00:51:28,829 --> 00:51:30,126
on the stool

548
00:51:30,126 --> 00:51:31,506
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

549
00:51:31,506 --> 00:51:36,126
I would ask before I take the stool, but I mean, it's largely fair game.

550
00:51:36,126 --> 00:51:43,286
I think one should ask, like, you know, maybe somebody is holding it for a friend of
theirs who's going to sit beside them you know.

551
00:51:43,286 --> 00:51:47,928
There's any number of things that could be going on, like, you know, but I'd ask.

552
00:51:47,928 --> 00:51:51,227
Have you an ideal size that you like for a session?

553
00:51:51,389 --> 00:51:53,414
Like an ideal number of...

554
00:51:55,906 --> 00:51:58,707
Yeah, suppose four or five feels about right to me.

555
00:51:58,707 --> 00:52:04,230
I don't know.

556
00:52:04,230 --> 00:52:09,533
But if 15 people turn up at the door, you say, no, you can't play.

557
00:52:09,533 --> 00:52:14,596
uh But no, I'd imagine four or five.

558
00:52:14,596 --> 00:52:17,107
I tell this funny story about my father.

559
00:52:17,107 --> 00:52:19,278
I didn't hear this from my father.

560
00:52:19,406 --> 00:52:22,026
I heard it from uileann Piper.

561
00:52:22,226 --> 00:52:27,586
He said, three pipers turned up at Pepper's one night and at Wednesday night and my father
was there.

562
00:52:27,586 --> 00:52:29,486
Now, my father likes the pipes.

563
00:52:29,826 --> 00:52:32,706
He doesn't necessarily like three pipes in the session.

564
00:52:33,486 --> 00:52:39,386
So this fellow walks up to him and says, we're pipers, we're from wherever.

565
00:52:40,626 --> 00:52:42,546
And could we join the session?

566
00:52:42,546 --> 00:52:44,066
And my father said, sure, one of ye could anyway

567
00:52:44,974 --> 00:52:56,714
says my father they were kind of thinking, okay, should we do this in shifts then, or how
does this work?

568
00:52:56,794 --> 00:53:07,074
Because in a way, I suppose with three sets of pipes, it was going to be a very particular
sound.

569
00:53:07,994 --> 00:53:11,054
That was going to be the session then.

570
00:53:11,616 --> 00:53:14,036
Yes, how many others were there in the session?

571
00:53:14,036 --> 00:53:16,546
Was it just your dad playing the fiddle or?

572
00:53:16,546 --> 00:53:23,011
My dad with Francie Donnellan and the two of them used to kind of hold court like of a
Wednesday night.

573
00:53:23,011 --> 00:53:35,562
Yeah, was something like, I mean, we do think that the sessions were this kind of, um I
mean, they are non-hierarchical in a certain sense, but I also have these memories like of

574
00:53:35,562 --> 00:53:40,706
going to the, what was the pub in Dublin where John Kelly and Joe Ryan used to play?

575
00:53:40,706 --> 00:53:43,088
uh on Caple Street, yeah.

576
00:53:43,208 --> 00:53:45,269
I remember like the two of them,

577
00:53:45,430 --> 00:53:49,133
held court like, they picked the tunes largely.

578
00:53:49,333 --> 00:53:52,475
They would play and people could play along with them.

579
00:53:52,516 --> 00:53:59,782
And my father, Francie, used to play every Wednesday night in Peppers and Feakle and it
became something like that as well.

580
00:53:59,782 --> 00:54:03,205
know, the two boys had their selections of tunes.

581
00:54:03,205 --> 00:54:07,288
Now, if you learned those tunes, they were reliably going to come back next Wednesday.

582
00:54:07,288 --> 00:54:09,690
You know, you'd be fairly safe.

583
00:54:09,710 --> 00:54:17,190
you had a predictable target here, you know, you could say, these are the tunes, they are
gonna play them, and I will know the tunes, you know.

584
00:54:17,190 --> 00:54:28,490
So in a sense, over time, it did allow for a lot of entry into the session, it allowed a
lot of people to go, okay, yeah, I got the repertoire that's going on here, and eventually

585
00:54:28,490 --> 00:54:30,630
lots of people had it.

586
00:54:31,310 --> 00:54:38,668
And then another one of the problems of sessions was like switching tunes, you know, got
sorted out.

587
00:54:38,668 --> 00:54:47,902
Because the boys had this kind of old ceili band, well, like old recording kind of concept
of three reels, you know.

588
00:54:48,682 --> 00:54:52,104
And once they started one, you do the other two then automatically.

589
00:54:52,104 --> 00:54:57,066
And uh so the session had a kind of a coherence.

590
00:54:57,066 --> 00:55:07,104
Now, you know, some people complained like, we were always playing the same tunes, but,
know, it's not possible to have new tunes every week, you know.

591
00:55:07,110 --> 00:55:13,653
and it's okay to play a lot of the same ones, it's okay to add a few as well.

592
00:55:13,653 --> 00:55:21,657
But the consistency of people getting to know the tunes and being able to join in I
thought was very useful.

593
00:55:21,657 --> 00:55:26,260
Anyway, don't know, do I stray from every single question you ask?

594
00:55:26,260 --> 00:55:27,460
think I do.

595
00:55:28,701 --> 00:55:30,682
I think I just wander off.

596
00:55:31,656 --> 00:55:37,496
Could be a, you know, is that a, what do call it, a trait in the creative mind?

597
00:55:37,496 --> 00:55:38,705
The you want undisciplined, mind?

598
00:55:38,705 --> 00:55:39,416
Yeah.

599
00:55:41,448 --> 00:55:44,032
But that's maybe what creatives are.

600
00:55:44,714 --> 00:55:49,141
We could all be disciplined and then be accountants maybe.

601
00:55:49,226 --> 00:55:51,213
I don't have that I'm afraid.

602
00:55:52,300 --> 00:55:59,135
Somebody else has asked, intermediate player struggles with having the basics of good
rhythm.

603
00:55:59,476 --> 00:56:00,466
How do they manage that?

604
00:56:00,466 --> 00:56:04,379
Or how does the environment around it manage?

605
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,862
Maybe learners who don't have quite the rhythm yet.

606
00:56:07,918 --> 00:56:13,463
ah Yeah, it's an issue like rhythm, know.

607
00:56:13,463 --> 00:56:16,575
Like, well, the session can help a lot, like in the rhythm.

608
00:56:16,575 --> 00:56:22,750
If you kind of, like, are flexible and submit to it, it'll show you where the rhythm and
the groove is, you know.

609
00:56:22,750 --> 00:56:25,173
You can let that happen.

610
00:56:25,173 --> 00:56:36,022
I mean, another factor in that as well is that, like, I believe that in this music, like,
when we play it, like, the rhythm actually sits in your body, you know, more than in your

611
00:56:36,022 --> 00:56:37,012
instrument.

612
00:56:37,514 --> 00:56:42,398
and your instrument responds to that, you play in response to that.

613
00:56:42,398 --> 00:56:52,484
So I would say to musicians, try not to imagine playing this music only with your hands
and your head.

614
00:56:53,645 --> 00:56:58,969
Your whole body actually moves into a phrase of rhythm.

615
00:56:58,969 --> 00:57:06,134
And if you cut off your body from that inevitable, it's actually very difficult to keep
time.

616
00:57:06,446 --> 00:57:08,086
It's very difficult to make a rhythm.

617
00:57:08,086 --> 00:57:10,666
It's very difficult to stay consistent.

618
00:57:10,866 --> 00:57:12,306
You need your body.

619
00:57:12,306 --> 00:57:13,686
Your body helps you do that.

620
00:57:13,686 --> 00:57:16,106
It kind of works as its own metronome.

621
00:57:16,186 --> 00:57:21,446
You don't have to be gyrating all over the place to allow that to happen.

622
00:57:21,826 --> 00:57:25,366
But it certainly flows in the body.

623
00:57:25,366 --> 00:57:29,586
And you see that not just with traditional music, but with all music.

624
00:57:30,506 --> 00:57:33,592
Even if you see a non-rhythmic...

625
00:57:33,592 --> 00:57:42,496
piece of music played by a concert pianist, you will actually see their body move with the
phrase.

626
00:57:42,496 --> 00:57:49,148
If you saw somebody sit completely still, you'd be suspicious.

627
00:57:50,109 --> 00:57:58,932
There's a kind of a gesture that has a physical dimension to it in your body and manifests
as a gesture in music.

628
00:57:58,932 --> 00:58:03,564
And the same is true with rhythm and pulse, that you need to let your body

629
00:58:04,266 --> 00:58:07,068
feel it and be part of your playing.

630
00:58:07,068 --> 00:58:11,591
In fact, your body is more useful to your playing than your brain.

631
00:58:13,133 --> 00:58:19,458
Like thinking, like too much thinking doesn't do much for it.

632
00:58:19,458 --> 00:58:22,708
So put your brain to the side.

633
00:58:22,708 --> 00:58:29,885
yeah, it's great to think about music a lot and I like to theorize and think and talk and
philosophize and everything.

634
00:58:29,885 --> 00:58:37,472
But when you sit down to play like you'd be, you need a lobotomy right there.

635
00:58:38,254 --> 00:58:42,618
need to stop the brain from getting in the way of the music.

636
00:58:42,618 --> 00:58:43,274
oh

637
00:58:43,274 --> 00:58:45,408
and maybe put the heart in the forefront.

638
00:58:45,408 --> 00:58:52,742
Yes, yeah, and the body, the body feels it, like the body, the body feels the music, it
carries the music, you know.

639
00:58:52,972 --> 00:59:04,172
I think if I'm in a giddy state, like my heart feels like it's lifted, my head feels like
it's out of the way, and I just get so excited and I play much better.

640
00:59:04,172 --> 00:59:07,183
Yeah, precisely.

641
00:59:09,824 --> 00:59:15,206
Getting back to our earlier chat, we were talking about arts and music.

642
00:59:16,807 --> 00:59:26,650
Going through that process of knowing when your intellect should be applied and when not.

643
00:59:27,118 --> 00:59:41,817
Like, you know, when you should have an active thinking process and when you should, you
know, just trust and let go and flow and trust what emerges, you I think that there's

644
00:59:41,817 --> 00:59:44,348
obviously balancing act with all of that.

645
00:59:44,988 --> 00:59:55,054
But like to answer your question or like on rhythm, I think, yeah, letting go and letting
your body have a say.

646
00:59:56,193 --> 01:00:00,462
What if somebody's body doesn't work in time with the music?

647
01:00:00,462 --> 01:00:02,833
I Ask them to leave the session immediately.

648
01:00:04,778 --> 01:00:13,600
You know if you're in a bigger session you're trying to keep in time with the musician you
know and so you're watching their foot tapping but their foot taps at a different time.

649
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:14,422
oh

650
01:00:14,422 --> 01:00:19,084
You stop playing and you buy them a drink, you know, and you have a good chat.

651
01:00:22,406 --> 01:00:25,227
Well, I mean, on one level.

652
01:00:25,307 --> 01:00:39,153
there is like one can be and I have played this role as well, like it's a kind of a
slightly subversive role, you know, where like you can actually create pulse and rhythm

653
01:00:39,153 --> 01:00:42,336
that has a...

654
01:00:42,336 --> 01:00:54,500
an entrainment quality to it, that kind of pulls others along with it, if it's precise and
kind of...

655
01:00:54,500 --> 01:00:56,902
oh

656
01:00:57,422 --> 01:01:03,362
powered as possible, you know, it can actually sway the session.

657
01:01:03,362 --> 01:01:15,662
I've actually sat in groups of music where I could hear a pull one way or the other, you
know, like, and I might actually kind of put my thumb on the scale in favour of one And

658
01:01:15,662 --> 01:01:23,302
like, and put all my weight with one group of musicians in the hope of...

659
01:01:23,534 --> 01:01:30,350
tipping the scale in that direction and allowing that to be the consensus.

660
01:01:30,350 --> 01:01:33,302
Because we're looking for consensus.

661
01:01:34,784 --> 01:01:46,272
So that poor person whose body was not in sync, I would look for some other bodies that
were in sync and we would kind of maximize the groove and get that person to submit.

662
01:01:46,272 --> 01:01:51,903
Yeah, oh they probably were like playing in sync but they're foot wasn't

663
01:01:52,286 --> 01:01:55,669
yeah, some people, yes, yes, yes, yes.

664
01:01:55,669 --> 01:02:00,293
Some people's bodies may be in sync but their foot might be out to lunch, you know.

665
01:02:00,614 --> 01:02:12,263
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like, oh God, oh, like when somebody's foot is tapping out of rhythm,
like I am like, or when somebody's actually moving out of rhythm, like that is time for

666
01:02:12,263 --> 01:02:14,645
the eyes shut music, you know.

667
01:02:16,276 --> 01:02:20,534
And that, you your mention about that, what did you call it, entrainment?

668
01:02:20,534 --> 01:02:22,255
Entrainment, yeah.

669
01:02:22,395 --> 01:02:32,626
It's like entrainment would be like if you, a magnet over metal filings, like you you get
it all to...

670
01:02:33,070 --> 01:02:43,213
Or as like Dennis used to talk about like being in the studio with an engineer one time
and there's a band and they're not gelling like they're kind of going and the engineer

671
01:02:43,213 --> 01:02:53,015
puts on the headphones, puts his microphone on and he says into the headphones, says hey
let's everybody try and row in the same direction right?

672
01:02:55,176 --> 01:02:58,517
everybody, we're going in the same direction okay?

673
01:02:59,457 --> 01:03:01,998
And you know so like

674
01:03:02,144 --> 01:03:07,206
I would say to all musicians going into the session, have your antenna on.

675
01:03:07,206 --> 01:03:10,238
This is not a personal performance here.

676
01:03:10,238 --> 01:03:15,580
This is not like, I learned how to play the tune this way and I'm coming and this is how
I'm playing it.

677
01:03:15,580 --> 01:03:19,222
No, be prepared to warp and bend.

678
01:03:19,802 --> 01:03:25,124
Be prepared to let your tune get shaped by what's happening around you.

679
01:03:25,385 --> 01:03:28,276
And be prepared to be lifted by the session.

680
01:03:28,276 --> 01:03:38,711
Also, there is another thing that happens in the session, which I think is very important,
which is every now and again you're going to play over your head.

681
01:03:38,932 --> 01:03:49,397
You're going to play better than you actually know how to play, and you're going to know
you did that, and you're going to know that it resides in you as potential.

682
01:03:49,438 --> 01:03:57,642
It's an indicator of what you can do, and every now and again if you stay open and allow
yourself to be brought

683
01:03:58,136 --> 01:04:03,678
brought along by the session, you can find yourself playing at a higher level.

684
01:04:03,678 --> 01:04:12,131
then you might not be able to replicate that when you get home, in all likelihood you
won't.

685
01:04:12,652 --> 01:04:14,312
But you'll know it's there.

686
01:04:14,913 --> 01:04:16,373
And that's important.

687
01:04:16,578 --> 01:04:17,938
That is brilliant.

688
01:04:18,939 --> 01:04:27,381
I had an experience recently where I was playing in a session and I have a new fiddle m
which I love.

689
01:04:28,081 --> 01:04:32,682
It's definitely I've moved up in the fiddle category.

690
01:04:33,823 --> 01:04:42,105
At the kind of closer to the end of the night, know your uh hands would normally get a bit
tired, tendons would to of seize up a wee bit.

691
01:04:42,105 --> 01:04:45,206
It's like the fiddle took over and

692
01:04:45,228 --> 01:04:47,704
It's almost like it says you can, you know, you have a rest.

693
01:04:47,704 --> 01:04:49,056
I'll play the rest of it.

694
01:04:49,056 --> 01:04:51,552
And I barely had to put my fingers on the fiddle.

695
01:04:51,552 --> 01:04:54,778
It just, and it was like, what, what is going on?

696
01:04:54,778 --> 01:04:56,481
Who is this playing?

697
01:04:56,538 --> 01:05:06,587
But like that's a breakthrough like in a way like you know like when you're like I I have
many memories of kind of breakthrough moments like that you know when you when you

698
01:05:06,587 --> 01:05:18,967
suddenly realize oh I actually yeah, I discover something and I think part of that is
because in the session You know when things are going right like it can be tremendously

699
01:05:18,967 --> 01:05:20,138
relaxing

700
01:05:20,322 --> 01:05:25,687
You can play at a level of relaxation that's hard to achieve in any other situation.

701
01:05:25,747 --> 01:05:33,274
So it's not surprising, I suppose, that one could have musical breakthroughs in those
situations.

702
01:05:33,390 --> 01:05:37,314
and I've been trying to replicate it again, it's like, come on, come on fiddle why aren't
you?

703
01:05:38,327 --> 01:05:46,734
The biggest challenge as a performing musician was having a really good gig.

704
01:05:47,606 --> 01:05:50,418
I go, yeah, I cracked it.

705
01:05:50,418 --> 01:05:52,660
And what do you want to do the next night?

706
01:05:52,660 --> 01:05:54,541
You want to do that gig again.

707
01:05:54,541 --> 01:05:55,292
And you know what?

708
01:05:55,292 --> 01:05:57,063
It's not yielding.

709
01:05:58,284 --> 01:05:59,485
There is no solution.

710
01:05:59,485 --> 01:06:00,646
uh

711
01:06:02,126 --> 01:06:03,908
There is no solution.

712
01:06:03,908 --> 01:06:08,833
So you just have to be willing to kind of just jump in and see what happens.

713
01:06:08,833 --> 01:06:15,659
like trying to replicate a good gig is like just the recipe for not having a good gig, you
know?

714
01:06:15,862 --> 01:06:18,246
I think that's true.

715
01:06:18,246 --> 01:06:22,513
Maybe is this the same then with us trying to replicate a good session?

716
01:06:22,786 --> 01:06:24,277
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

717
01:06:24,277 --> 01:06:35,113
The tension, the pressure, the beginning disappointment, because of the lack of trust and
all that.

718
01:06:35,113 --> 01:06:35,963
Yeah, exactly.

719
01:06:35,963 --> 01:06:41,196
Because we had this session and it was great and we just go, why can't it be great again?

720
01:06:41,196 --> 01:06:51,682
But the thing was like, maybe on that occasion we were more open, we were more trusting,
we didn't have the template of that other great session burdening us.

721
01:06:51,936 --> 01:06:57,768
So we were kind of free to let happen what would happen and then letting happen what
happens.

722
01:06:57,768 --> 01:06:58,867
Suddenly we're able to...

723
01:06:58,867 --> 01:07:01,730
I'm learning, like, how many years have I been gigging?

724
01:07:01,730 --> 01:07:03,491
Like, I'm still learning this.

725
01:07:03,491 --> 01:07:16,316
Like, okay, like, if I could just surrender my agenda at the beginning of the gig, and
have a bit of trust and faith and not try to have it so locked in, I have a chance of

726
01:07:16,316 --> 01:07:19,417
actually getting somewhere, you know?

727
01:07:19,417 --> 01:07:21,898
But if I put the getting somewhere as the...

728
01:07:22,574 --> 01:07:26,475
as the main objective, I probably won't get anywhere, you know.

729
01:07:26,616 --> 01:07:38,060
But if I put as an objective that I'll trust the situation and I'm willing to take the
chance and the risk of, you know, just letting happen how it's going to happen, then I

730
01:07:38,060 --> 01:07:42,341
have a, then there's a very good chance that gig will actually work.

731
01:07:44,503 --> 01:07:46,905
I think that's a great way to...

732
01:07:47,006 --> 01:07:48,682
we're coming near the end now.

733
01:07:48,682 --> 01:07:53,034
I have um a couple of other questions to ask you.

734
01:07:53,034 --> 01:08:01,465
One of them is, I suppose maybe goes back to what we've kind of talked the whole way
through anyway, but your idea of an ideal session.

735
01:08:02,154 --> 01:08:20,592
I suppose my ideal session involves musical friends, people that I know, people that I
have lot of experience with, people for whom we have a lot of shared repertoire.

736
01:08:20,592 --> 01:08:28,485
That brings me back close to home, like maybe sitting down with Mary Mac or Brian
Donnellan or Andrew.

737
01:08:28,485 --> 01:08:31,366
uh

738
01:08:31,404 --> 01:08:38,833
you know, like anybody like that, you know, that's like in my immediate comfort zone, you
know.

739
01:08:39,296 --> 01:08:40,306
Lovely.

740
01:08:40,607 --> 01:08:42,879
I have stolen a tradition from other podcasts.

741
01:08:42,879 --> 01:08:46,971
They usually get their last guest to leave a question for their next guest.

742
01:08:46,971 --> 01:08:49,794
So I have think that's kind of a nice thing.

743
01:08:49,794 --> 01:08:51,975
So I'm using that as well.

744
01:08:51,975 --> 01:08:55,817
So the last guest has left this question for you.

745
01:08:56,058 --> 01:09:00,981
What are the two or three words you most dread hearing at a session?

746
01:09:00,981 --> 01:09:02,182
ah

747
01:09:02,690 --> 01:09:04,973
I'm straight here in a session.

748
01:09:04,973 --> 01:09:06,454
I don't have to think about this now.

749
01:09:06,454 --> 01:09:09,957
I am thinking but let's see.

750
01:09:13,421 --> 01:09:15,727
Yeah, yeah, have my chair.

751
01:09:19,507 --> 01:09:22,653
whereas some people would think that is their highlight of the session.

752
01:09:22,809 --> 01:09:25,276
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

753
01:09:25,705 --> 01:09:28,868
I must remember to never say those words to you.

754
01:09:29,406 --> 01:09:42,051
Yeah, I feel so awkward like as soon as somebody said like I feel like but hold on a
second like I don't want to disrupt like you know it's like yeah I say it's anyway it has

755
01:09:42,051 --> 01:09:43,002
happened

756
01:09:43,470 --> 01:09:46,875
because you can so enjoy it from where you are.

757
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:50,703
But thank you so, so much, Martin.

758
01:09:50,703 --> 01:09:52,396
It has been a pleasure to chat to you.

759
01:09:52,396 --> 01:09:53,332
Okay.

760
01:09:54,956 --> 01:09:57,887
What a privilege to have Martin Hayes with us today.

761
01:09:57,887 --> 01:10:02,748
His stories and insights into traditional music are truly inspiring.

762
01:10:02,948 --> 01:10:11,470
There's plenty more to come on In Tune with Tradition and next week I'll be joined by
Lunasa flute player, Kevin Crawford.

763
01:10:12,091 --> 01:10:22,944
If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe, leave a review or visit
SessionEtiquette.com where you can let me know what session challenges you have or

764
01:10:22,944 --> 01:10:24,728
questions you'd like to ask.

765
01:10:24,728 --> 01:10:26,120
future guests.

766
01:10:26,503 --> 01:10:31,182
Until next time, keep tuning in with tradition.

767
01:10:31,182 --> 01:10:32,262
you

768
01:10:37,390 --> 01:10:38,342
you

769
01:11:02,766 --> 01:11:04,419
you