Remember that round table presentation I've been talking to you guys about, or here it is, unfortunately though, the sound file that I thought I would. I didn't get recorded. So we managed to pull some sound out of an iPad video, but, you know, iPad, video microphone, big room, sorry, folks. This is not the greatest audio that we've had on qiological and I really apologize about that. And in the future, hopefully we will not have these kinds of snack foods with the recording equipment, but it's the best I can do. So give it a listen and I hope you find it. Okay. The day, we got just an hour here for kinda tastic question, answer opportunity with our panel. I'm Michael Maxim, the host of a qiological podcast. I've had a chance to meet some of you and, uh, hopefully I'll get a chance to talk to some others before this is all over and delighted to be here, to take flavor of the podcast out to our larger community. Really delighted to have our luminaries here with us today. We, first of all, got on the godfather of sports acupuncture. Hillary pats, her. She was a member of the us ski team for. Acupuncture save your bacon after she overtrained athletes overtrain, and imagining that she's here with her, she's also the acupuncturist for the Minnesota Vikings and some other pro athletes as well. So really looking for that, Matt Callison, you know, this cat, I don't think you need an introduction at this point. The famous Mr. Chad bonds, he runs this little thing called the acupuncture sports Alliance. amazing that. So we've got some questions on Facebook and we're going to run through a few of these, and then we can take some questions from the audience as well. So, uh, Oh, one last thing. That's right. Um, if, if all of you on our panel, we can start with the godfather over here.

Didn't the godfather,

the godfather of sports acupuncture. It's a whole different story. So we should make her just take them off. And tell us, uh, what sports world we found your way into, what aspects of the sports world you found yourself into and treating, and just the elevator version of how you got yourself there for what happened. What were the circumstances?

Overwhelmingly aerobic distance endurance athletes is how I got my start. Runners, distance runners, marathoners triathletes. Um, cyclists. I'm not sure what elevators over can answer that question, but the synopsis of what I would say is that the way to, to transition yourself into the athletic world or specifically the professional athlete athletic world is to do really good pre.

So, yeah, I I'm an endurance athlete, a us cross country ski team. I don't look much like an Alzheimer's here. And as I was that I over-trained. And so I started to work on athletes. I've also done the Boston marathon and they come to iron man, so definitely have done a lot of endurance stuff. So it's sort of odd that. With, you know, an NFL team, NHL, guys baseball. Um, but I think one of the major things for me is my background. Yeah. It really gives the guys, um, Confidence that I understand what they're going through and what their body feels like and, you know, wanting to stay in the field, so to speak. Um, and just like what said, you have to be really good at what you do and a little bit, a lot of being at the right place at the right time. Um, you know, to meet the people that could, you know, help. Project and catapult

your career, um, background with athletic training and physical education as it was a stark. And then as far as the acupuncture piece is always been interested in musculoskeletal treatment. And then just like what would said, the sense that we've got once you treat one professional athlete and they love what you do. And they're going to tell them all of their partners. And then pretty soon you have a whole practice of all of these professional happens, because what they're getting is so different than what they're getting in their own training. And from my experience, cause I used to treat the Minnesota Vikings. I flew out there for three years in a row. The players are the ones that brought me in the training staff, wanting nothing to do with me, even though I tried to contact him. This was a while ago that changed. It was the players, the players that really responded to the, into a hotel, the big, huge screen, the doors would open at 7:00 AM and close at 8:00 PM. They would just come in and it was something that I wanted to be able to speak with the trainers. But one of my findings was when I was doing today, they really, at that time, didn't really want much to do with me, for the players. Really enjoyed it. So the same thing can happen in your own private practice. Just treat the players. Do you create a chart? And they're going to tell their friends.

Yeah. So I think all the stories have the same base to them, this work card prep, so that when this opportunity arises, you take advantage of. So I also think that making connections with other acupunctures is helpful to do this because one of my big breaks into the athletic world, which is. Let's say Olympic level track athletes is the big thing that I'm treating currently at the highest, you know, the highest level athletes and some NFL guys. One of them, the truck athletes came from this track athlete called just like the first acupuncturist that comes up on Google. If you Google Philadelphia and acupuncture call that person. And that person was like, ask them what was going on. She told him what was going on. And he said, oh, you should go see

check. So,

because I had a connection with this other acupuncturist is how I got into this Olympic athlete. Um, so get out there in your community and talk to people and make connections, refer, refer patients, other countries. I refer, you know, internal medicine stuff to other acupuncturists all the time. So, but it's not helping you go this network of people that allow that connection to happen. Since I send people with them, they were willing to send me back to me. And then once I got that, after you treated that athlete and you know, same story, That love what happens. And then a bunch of athletes, friends with actually the next thing was the athletes coach. I treated offense coach, and then it exploded from there. Now the ball is really rolling. So I think the story is similar for all of us and same with Kai yesterday and everybody I've ever interviewed on my podcast,

that word of mouth and getting your reputation in the community really

seems to do good.

Yeah, elections, I think are important. Probably all of us have somebody who connected us with somebody and that's how it exploded.

Let me get me through these Facebook questions in a moment, but I just want to follow up with something that you guys have been saying in treating the players with the players that have really started talking among other players. Now, I think we know as apple country. Our practice has grown by word of mouth all the time. Right. And whether it's bring your family members or friends or, or whatever, I'm wondering if maybe in your guys' experience that, that there's like more of a buzz that happens within a sports team, like a family or friend at work or non-professionals. Is there something different about what professionals communicate with each other that, that make this a particularly important aspect

of building. And there was a good comradery in sports team to team. And when one person sees the ages outside the best cutting edge, they want everybody on that team to be able to go and see this person because they want win. And so. When you can get into that energy, that's the camaraderie. That's the big thing is it's. I think it's different than the family network, because most family statistics with the sports teams though. I mean, these people are brothers or sisters, or we try to invest when for a common purpose.

For me is as well with the, with the Vikings is, um, you know, families don't spend a lot of time together usually, but they spend a lot of time in their locker room. And so when we first started with them, You know, a training camp asking where they heard about me, wondering if they had been referred to me by the trainer or not. And they said, oh yeah, the guys in the locker room were talking about you. So they just overhear it or they'll say, oh my God, he got a hammy thing. And they're like, oh, you should go see blah, blah, blah. So. I think, like Matt said, there's just a lot more communication. They're not as dysfunctional. Um, they want to win really badly, but they also are in a room together a lot of the day, and that would be bad for a lot of families. Um, so, so yeah, kind of just that, that bond that they have is very different. You get one person

and now everybody involved with these track athletes is they don't go anywhere else. They're just like on the first one. Pathway to go through because one

person, you know, so they

they're very tight on that group. That's what teams are. So.

My experience is almost the opposite such as the, um, I started with runners and triathletes, and these were individual competitive athletes who often were competing against themselves, you know, for a person best. No, occasionally you'd be fortunate enough to get someone who could win a race, you know, an entire race, but they found something that worked. They did not often want their training partners to get this information because they would no longer have this edge. So, so it wasn't always such a, the camaraderie thing was not. In my experience in the early years. Anyway, um, when I started, uh, later as triathletes were teams and running teams were happening rather than just individuals running, um, then that camaraderie things started to happen. But I think that, uh, the most important thing, um, that underlies it all is communication is sort of what everyone is saying. People were talking, but you have to know the language. So have a runner comes in and says that. Uh, they ran native splits on this, uh, on this marathon. And they noticed that their, their resting pulse rate has been on, you know, several beats higher or some other jargon around, uh, around how their training is going. You need to know that you need to know what that means. You don't know what that means. You go home that night and you read until, you know what that means because these athletes are not better. Hey, she's to you, if you know the no negative splits or the increased resting heart rate or whatever the parameter that they are talking about. So you've got to know what their life is like. So that I think is very important. And in an interview, when you can say, well, you know, so, so what is your resting pulse rate? Your. When you're doing a normal training run, you know, how close to maximum heart rate or 80% of the maximum heart rate is your run, you know? And, and when you can speak with some sort of clarity like that, they know you understand who they are and what they're doing. Um, and so if it's, if it's within the context of training, That language is important. If it's in the context of man, I think it's really important to kind of go, oh, this is where it hurts, huh. And really get that Asher point and have them kind of go. Has ever found this point, quite like this, you really know where the problem is. And we follow that up with a picture with an illustration of the anatomy and say, this is the problem, and this is how we fix it. So that now you're communicating anatomically about the treatment rather than. Um, within the context of lifestyle training, but that knowledge base, that language is essential. You can't go in there with demons. And when did he would call them energy reversing going up and down and out or something, you know, just, you know, it's not going to work, you know, uh, in terms of bringing about his sense of confidence for most of that.

Yeah, it's interesting. How a team sport person, individual sport will take a really, really different approach. Got another sport. I'm going to take a question from Facebook here. Do you recommend focusing on increasing athletic performance or preparation or recover as a practitioner developing a practice with that

is

the way I look

mostly is keeping them on the practice field or keeping them on the track or what I'm saying. The little bits you can get thinking about performance. Like some sort of, you know, is, is great, but the moment you can get from the train throughout the year is the most valuable piece. If they can never miss a workout because you did your job and kept them out there. That's the greatest thing that you can do for them is to keep them out there training. Um, so that's, that's my place is keeping them on. You know, out there practicing is way more to meet the other stuff. Those two, the performance and the recovery recovery get on their path quicker, maybe, but I'm talking about the, keeping them out of injuries is the most lumpectomy.

It's kind of wear two different hats and my mind. And I totally agree with what Chad's talking about is consistency. When somebody is coming in with aches and pains, because of training so much, to make sure that the muscles are pulling the way that she blood is coming through the area, they're partially correct. They are able to train as consistently as possible, rehabbing that person to keep them on the field or whatever support that our last one hat. Now as they actually progressing, they're becoming more pain free and you can start out by looking into more sports performance because the treatment for a human performance or sports performance is actually a lot less than it is in rehabbing. An injury. As you're reviewing the scores, performance protocol events, and it only takes like 10 minutes to do, right. And that's, you're not addressing an injury, just like two different hats. We're going for rehab and balancing versus enhancement of cheap blood moving by perfectly

good event.

Yeah. I mean,

I guess it would also depend on where your heart is. Like this is coming from a practitioner asking, you know, where they should focus their practice to potentially draw athletes in as an athlete myself. You know, I don't know if you're asking recovery from an injury or just your, you know, your one day off, but with the EOC team and stuff, like we would be training two to three times a day, our day off with gold, um, and almost more important than any of the intervals that we do. Was that rebuilding your system. So in that way, recovering is really important so that you can get back out there and train, you know, as zillion times again, but where are you getting? Another day off? The performance aspect is maybe going to be more important and more exciting to certain practitioners and a certain athletes. So people are going to find you for what they want. Um, you know, pregame, I sometimes don't see anybody, but I see 'em on Tuesday. And I seen him Tuesday, religiously, you know, that's their buzzer recovery, but I would never see them on Friday, Friday before games. So they kind of find you as well. And I sort of let that flow kind of let the chief low and let them figure it out. A little bit. So I guess I'm a little wishy-washy on that one, but it kind of depends on what you attract and then what they're looking

for, I really agree with most of what's being said, but I'll comment on this tomorrow afternoon. I think this when I'm supposed to speak on the second, but, but, but by and large of all the studies on athletic performance, The two legal things that seem to stand out or that training, proper training enhances athletic performance and coffee and everything else is a hit the myths, you know, so

Facebook and The advantages and disadvantages of treating athletes at their training facilities and order events, as opposed to getting it over, to come to your clinic, like your other pictures

do whatever is appropriate and everything.

For me, it's really different being at the Vikings facility versus, um, Actually I'm joining a collaboration of practitioners, twin cities, orthopedics, and about a week and a half. So I'll be across the practice, deal from them, which will be really nice. They can walk or ride their bike or a golf cart or whatever. So it's going to be a different answer. But, um, at my studio, my private practice, I still treat them very differently than. Treats, um, some other people that come in, I spend more time with them do a lot more manual, um, with them just because of they're hitting a brick wall, you know, for a living, um, so right wrong, right. Or otherwise, um, maybe I should be treating every patient with that much detail, but I do, I am able to. Give them more body sugar, you know, at my private practice than I am on 45 minutes at the,

I only from my own, my own experience that it's properly. There's different situations that can occur when I'm treating in a facility. Sometimes you're going to be watched by other people of exactly what you're doing. Um, Um, like you're saying and have limited time per patient. Um, it's often in a train, but not in a single road, so it's not always, but you're going to be amongst a lot of people watching and you may not actually be able to do the assessment. You want to do because somebody else wants to have a team athletic trainer. So you're a little bit handicapped, what you can do because you're the acupuncturist. And all that you're supposed to do is put the needles and nothing else. Whereas in your clinic behind closed doors, every time that you want to do.

Yeah track that these don't really have facilities. Um, but yeah, the NFL guys have all treated all coming in. And so I don't really know

anything

come to you so you can speak into the. In many parts of

practice, we see the average migraine come in, or our spring need working with professional

athletes. I'm sure you see that, but even more than

somebody who's been trained in extreme, extreme both physically and mentally. And I wonder if that drives you deeper and harder, understand Chinese medicine. And what was your biggest, aha. This is something interesting about Chinese medicine that. Less I had to work with these kinds of professionals.

I would say the most important, uh, for me is that if you look at the cause of disease, as in Dodges, the emotions, um, when he calls. Or other, the causes of disease include blood stagnation, flan, trauma, et cetera, et cetera. The really the viewpoint is that this is other crosses. He was trying to figure out the relationship with their mother or trying to look at some organ dysfunction. It's just not really nearly as expeditious extinction. Understanding that they're pushing themselves in. That's a cause of disease. That is overtrading lifestyle. However, you want to look at this, I'm going to talk about this some tomorrow again, but it's really allowing yourself to go into this other causes of disease and, and find a way to work with that. Thereby abandoning. So many of the other things that we think we seem to think are important. It's not improved gene load your emotions and kind of go here. Now. This is not the way to get there. And that was hard for me because I had, I really thought this medicine was, was really wouldn't have. Assan food dysfunction, a genuine dysfunction and emotional piece that all fit together and it would correspond exactly to the injury and it didn't work out that way. So the how hard was to let go of this stuff. Look at trauma, for instance, over training as the cause of this, it kind of frees you up to just approach it in a really. So relatively, uh, unintelligence or a way, you know, not very pristine at all, but it works.

I was trying to quickly come up with something in my head, um, you know, being the athletes and then over-training training for the Olympics and basically having my heart ripped out. And I need to figure out who I was without being Hilary of the skier. Um, you know, I luckily found acupuncture, but. That's a little bit of my aha as well as is just that experience that I had. Um, when I graduated from my masters, I wanted, I thought facial acupuncture sounded really great and you know, some nice massage and stuff. I wanted nothing to do with athletes because I had been so beaten up and slowly starting to get back into it through different, um, continuing educations, different modalities. You know, going to all the PT conferences in Minnesota and all of that. So those were, I had little aha moments of going, oh wait, no, this is like, this is me. I really tried to ignore it. This is me. I CA I came back home. I'm really glad though, you know, for information to TMI, I did step away. Cause when I came back, it was real and it wasn't just something that I did because it was easy. It was something I did because it's like what I'm

supposed to do. The treatments are easier, but she implied us so clean with professional athletes, they are driven. They're ShaoYin is usually very straight. They have a focus they're being treated by numerous people. And because there she is so clean, less kneels, less effort. The dive is usually really good. So there's less things to be able to focus on compared to the average. It's actually, my mind is easier. That

took my answer. these people come in and their bodies are so amazing. It's like I could think about during the acupuncture. They would be perfectly viable the next day, the tractor it's amazing. Sometimes the things they hobble in with them are racing the next weekend. It's amazing how one of the things that's forced me to do is to be really good at translating the concepts of acupuncture into the Western medical or just regular language, even enough to explain it to people who are not necessarily even Western, medically trained, just people who are. Yeah, they're athletes. They, they understand their muscles, but athletes don't always know much about the training of doing. They're just, they show up and our coaches run them and they're like, okay. And then they're done and they go home and eat and sleep and recover. Go back again. So you gotta be able to explain something to them in a way that they do understand that. And I think that's been a super valuable tool to me.

If you'd like to

comment about or critique of Chan guns. I can't remember school myofascial something, but, uh,

channels influential in my development. And I think he's intellectual even where acupuncture has gone. He's not an advocate of traditional Chinese medicine. It's been a bad way, but his concepts of looking at motor point tenderness as a diagnostic factor for spondylosis is monumental. So she hung the gun was definitely a big figure in the, um, the evolution I would say of sports acupuncture. He did good work

to give you that. I would agree very much. And you know, he set the tone along with Janet Trevell of anatomical thinking in a, an anatomical basis for acupuncture, even though, as Matt said, wasn't necessarily an advocate you know, very influential, but you can tell. How important in brilliant. He was because his students are just really, so many of the students in Canada are just very, very precise. Very, very fine. And so he's left the lineage and, you know, I don't know all, I don't know all of them personally. Well, you know, but great respect for Rick for channel.

How to work with local professional

tools,

persistence, find somebody to contact them and a contact number and then find them whatever you start off with, you know, maybe a little smaller, you know, a team, you know, I'm not gonna go home and just call the Eagles. I would maybe start off with the arena league football team of soul, instead of something like that.

Are harder to

crack into the top than it is to work your way up a little bit. I think

personal views in the current or future state sports acupuncture.

there's so much to that.

He dies a terrible death.

The

story is, you know, we are as a community, creating sports acupuncture. You know, as we move through it every day in this moment, this weekend, we just keep adding to it. We continue to have lectures and articles. People have aha moments in clinic and write about it or communicate about it. We're adding w you know, it's a growing it's, it's all alive. It's a lineage based medicines. So the knowledge base just keeps being added to, and I don't know where it's going. I don't care where it's going now. It is going, and it is being influenced by. The trigger point, people who, you know, dry needling people, uh, Chandigarh the students I have traditional acupuncture is five athletes. It's just keeps getting added to, and, uh, it will continue to evolve and it will need at some point differentiation between, um, sports acupuncture. And in a topical acupuncture and orthopedic acupuncture, they all have different, um, aspects to it. And I think the most important piece with sports acupuncture is kind of what I commented on before the importance of the practitioner really understanding the psyche of the athlete actually like in Steve's original question about with this athlete that is being driven. To training, uh, for some reason, the, uh, sports acupuncture, as we develop all these treatments must and will include understanding the safety of the athlete or translating the emotional states in the ship. This disturbances of shunning them, the other emotions and how that training. To the competitive athlete, then, you know, we're still growing that. Uh, but that would be the piece of sports acupuncture differentiated from anatomical orthopedic acupuncture, slightly different.

It's a really exciting time. I think athletes are being healthier. Like Matt said, they're eating better. Um, concussion is a really big deal. So they're really paying a lot more attention as are the trainers as are the coaches, as anybody who is putting their, you know, money down on these guys. So they want to pay for the best of the best to keep, you know, these million dollar bodies performing well, and then labor, you know, not having quite the same side effects that they did, you know, back in the day where they didn't have to wear home ECS and stuff like that. So, I think if we can come together as a community, we were talking about it at lunch. We're just so separate and really come together at things like this and communicate and educate and get excited and then go out and drag more people into it and, you know, get this massive amoeba going because the athletes want it. The coaches wanted the trainers want X, um, and we can provide them. Um, the athletes love the more shiny stuff you didn't think they would. And then they're like, oh, I have that. And you know, you can bring little bits of that in, so we have that ability to be different than the dry needling and you know, the PTs and the trainers and stuff, and really make that arena ours and own it. But we need to do it because the time is right now, I think, where they're really open to these kinds of studies.

This is really kind of Pandora's box with this one sports acupuncture. I don't think there's a definition I think is left up to interpretation because there are so many different people that practice sports acupuncture. It could be Japanese acupuncture, it could be follow. And I told the acupuncturist could the specialized in sports. Is there a one way of doing that now? There's no way that you want way of doing it. But the common ground is of the more popular that acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine in my mind. It's like my roots are in TCM. Love it, and want to continue to practice, but it is the more popular. The TCM acupuncture becomes more popular. That sports acupuncture is going to come because. But also as well as gynecology, the field got a college, the TCM skyrocketing, I shouldn't use different fields because acupuncture and the efficacy of acupuncture and TCM is really now in the last decade being recognized.

I think it's a super exciting time. I mean, that's why I think it's an exciting time. I think we're going in a great direction. Um, but really this is my question. Where do you want to see this go? And how can we facilitate that as the sports aquaculture Alliance? Um, we got four of us got together and were like, Hey, let's start something. Um, we started with this conference, but we want to see this grow from here and do something where we really bring everybody together, you know, go on some kind of direction that, you know, a lot of people want to see us go. Yeah. Build something and create a great community. And we're not quite sure how we want to do that. We want some feedback from you guys. So from my standpoint, this is more of a question for you guys in this for us,

I'm

both a chiropractor and acupuncturist, and I remember. Watching Joe Montana get adjusted just before the super bowl. Is anybody old enough to remember that? And that was monumental for the chiropractic profession that working with athletes got chiropractors into everybody's lexicon. So now everybody has a Cairo.

It's

exciting to see that. And it would be really exciting to see in the acupuncture profession. If you could take that jump, make some of the same mistakes that Kairos did, and I could give your list and grin acupuncture into the main, in the main stream and let everybody have an acupuncture. Okay. And then you have the specialties and the facial acupuncture, the gynecology, the sports acupuncture, and the high profile athletes are a great venue, a great vehicle for the profession. And so whether you want to treat your runners or your athletes or the guide payments, or, or if you just want to tap in and be able to ride the wave. However we can support this. We support the profession as a whole, I believe.

I mean, that's happening with athletes. I remember James Harrison when, um, uh, Kobe Bryan and Serita. I just watched a documentary on screen rooms in the document, you know, it's happening, but athletes are starting to show that they're doing this stuff and I think it's going to be great for us.

So like that. My background is athletic training and I've spent hundreds of hours in the training room and I've always wanted if I had more time to be able to volunteer or work in an athletic training setting, that's not my ideal setting, but I think it's so important that we infiltrate training rooms to start becoming part of the traditional athletic training program in the colleges.

But it used to be a lot of open audits or to be able to have that come in and it's happening. It's happening. I mean, think about what was happening 15 years ago. There wasn't, there wasn't that much. Yeah. Even tell you she's all that exponentially every year. There's just more and more acupuncturist in hospitals and training rooms is becoming more accepted another 10 years now. It's just going to be

amazing or places like salt as acupressure college works. University of Colorado. If I ever find some time, I'm going to try to create a clinic for the wan Institute. It's working with one of the universities in Philadelphia. Um,

yeah, there's a lot of research as well. I think research is really important to

actually

attach themselves to

some

teams right

in the school itself is attached

to. Yeah,

I think as

far as I'm

answering Chad's question or wherever you want to see it,

it says sports acupuncture Alliance. So it was creating that network we have with ovaries, like Matt said, there's so many people doing sports acupuncture

and there's so many different styles. So it's not crazy

that network where we can pretty much all come together and start working towards that greater goal of doing sports acupuncture. Mainstream course is going to be tough, but like I said, some people have to eat good and they didn't have it reinvented the wheel, but it's just creating that network, referring to each other, getting, knowing, you know, how to advance our training. We have Whitfield reads.

We have Mac houses

and we have many programs and many things out of our hands. I think once we start utilizing that fully and start putting much spreading it to each other and creating like a strong network in which we know, Hey, we do sports acupuncture. We're professionals, we're doctors showing and so forth that we can get that broad scope and make this a true Alliance that solid in the field of sports, medicine, acupuncture, or sports. Yeah.

I'm sorry about our time is up. So I would encourage you to take the questions, involve gods and, uh, continue talking with each other through the seasoning, through the rest of, uh, on and on as, as we all connected because you know, having this Alliance, this group is really what this four. Okay. That's it for this episode, I hope you found this discussion to be as helpful and interesting as I have.