1 00:00:08,420 --> 00:00:14,610 Hello and welcome to the Art Engager podcast with me, Claire Bown. 2 00:00:15,079 --> 00:00:19,470 I'm here to share techniques and tools to help you engage with your audience and 3 00:00:19,470 --> 00:00:22,689 bring art, objects, and ideas to life. 4 00:00:23,930 --> 00:00:25,549 So let's dive into this week's show. 5 00:00:30,810 --> 00:00:34,660 Hello and welcome to a new episode of the Art Engager. 6 00:00:35,340 --> 00:00:40,610 Today I'm chatting with Maggie Jackson about the power of uncertainty and 7 00:00:40,610 --> 00:00:45,800 how embracing not knowing might transform our work in museums. 8 00:00:46,540 --> 00:00:52,159 But before our chat, if you're enjoying my book, The Art Engager, 9 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:56,250 Reimagining Guided Experiences in Museums, I'd love your support. 10 00:00:56,415 --> 00:01:02,464 Please consider leaving a review or a rating on Amazon or Goodreads or sharing 11 00:01:02,464 --> 00:01:05,354 a photo of your copy on social media. 12 00:01:05,555 --> 00:01:07,094 And don't forget to tag me in. 13 00:01:07,164 --> 00:01:11,965 I really love to see the Art Engager out and about in the world. 14 00:01:13,075 --> 00:01:18,885 Now, before I introduce our guest today, I'd like you to take a moment 15 00:01:19,164 --> 00:01:21,635 to think about your work in museums. 16 00:01:22,185 --> 00:01:25,775 Whether you're standing in front of an artwork with a group of visitors, 17 00:01:26,195 --> 00:01:30,785 wondering what they'll discover, or facilitating a discussion where different 18 00:01:30,815 --> 00:01:37,065 interpretations and ideas emerge, uncertainty is woven through the work. 19 00:01:37,350 --> 00:01:37,929 We do. 20 00:01:38,930 --> 00:01:44,310 Museum educators in particular work with uncertainty every day, meeting 21 00:01:44,310 --> 00:01:49,410 new groups, handling unexpected questions or situations, and creating 22 00:01:49,410 --> 00:01:51,860 space for multiple perspectives. 23 00:01:52,550 --> 00:01:56,619 So how can we embrace this uncertainty more skillfully? 24 00:01:57,295 --> 00:02:01,755 Well, that's exactly what today's guest has been researching. 25 00:02:02,595 --> 00:02:07,975 Maggie Jackson is an award winning author whose latest book, Uncertain, 26 00:02:08,024 --> 00:02:12,475 The Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure, has been making waves. 27 00:02:12,814 --> 00:02:18,939 It was named on four top books of 2024 lists and was recently awarded a prize. 28 00:02:19,070 --> 00:02:23,810 Nonfiction Book of the Year by the Independent Publishers of New England. 29 00:02:24,630 --> 00:02:30,630 A former foreign correspondent and Boston Globe columnist, Maggie has spent years 30 00:02:30,650 --> 00:02:36,370 researching how uncertainty affects how we think, learn, and work together. 31 00:02:37,009 --> 00:02:41,970 So today we'll be discussing what her research might mean for museum educators 32 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:47,490 and how understanding uncertainty better could transform our practice. 33 00:02:48,270 --> 00:02:48,890 Enjoy. 34 00:02:51,829 --> 00:02:54,230 Hi, Maggie, and welcome to The Art Engager. 35 00:02:55,300 --> 00:02:56,650 Oh, it's a pleasure to be with you. 36 00:02:56,660 --> 00:02:58,390 Thank you so much for having me, Claire. 37 00:02:59,030 --> 00:03:00,070 You're very welcome. 38 00:03:00,330 --> 00:03:03,689 Could you tell our lovely listeners who you are and what you do? 39 00:03:04,730 --> 00:03:10,119 Yes I am a journalist, a former Boston Globe columnist, and past foreign 40 00:03:10,119 --> 00:03:15,499 correspondent in Tokyo and London, and an independent scholar and an author. 41 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,439 My most recent book is Uncertain, The Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure. 42 00:03:20,329 --> 00:03:20,940 Wonderful. 43 00:03:21,019 --> 00:03:24,920 Now, what fascinates me looking back at your writing career, You seem 44 00:03:24,920 --> 00:03:29,050 to have focused on social trends, significant things that are happening 45 00:03:29,050 --> 00:03:34,180 in society at the time, from attention and distraction, and your latest 46 00:03:34,180 --> 00:03:36,369 work, which is all about uncertainty. 47 00:03:36,370 --> 00:03:40,200 So perhaps you could elaborate on what drew you to these topics. 48 00:03:40,635 --> 00:03:41,035 Right. 49 00:03:41,195 --> 00:03:41,795 No, exactly. 50 00:03:41,795 --> 00:03:43,075 They're very big. 51 00:03:43,475 --> 00:03:45,025 I have written three books. 52 00:03:45,045 --> 00:03:47,075 I see them as a trilogy. 53 00:03:47,685 --> 00:03:51,054 They are all on topics that are right under our noses. 54 00:03:51,075 --> 00:03:55,784 And yet, subjects that we often misunderstand or don't really 55 00:03:55,824 --> 00:03:59,564 understand the nature of home or distraction and the nature of 56 00:03:59,564 --> 00:04:01,164 attention and finally uncertainty. 57 00:04:01,534 --> 00:04:08,954 I think the this propensity of mine to tackle these big, messy topics grew out 58 00:04:08,954 --> 00:04:15,594 of my time as a foreign correspondent, when as a general reporter based in a far 59 00:04:15,594 --> 00:04:21,024 off land, you are often covering nuclear politics one day and sports the next, 60 00:04:21,024 --> 00:04:26,495 and I was really interested in the meta view, the, the 30, 000 feet up view, as 61 00:04:26,495 --> 00:04:28,515 well as the granular details of life. 62 00:04:28,585 --> 00:04:30,565 So I've always been a trend thinker. 63 00:04:31,235 --> 00:04:34,775 Yeah, I love that, that you're attracted to these massive topics. 64 00:04:34,785 --> 00:04:37,265 They must involve a huge amount of research as well. 65 00:04:37,265 --> 00:04:41,155 And for your latest book, Uncertain, The Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure, 66 00:04:41,575 --> 00:04:46,565 for people who haven't read it yet, could you define uncertainty for us? 67 00:04:46,970 --> 00:04:51,580 That's a great starting point because, as I mentioned, it's a swampy topic, often 68 00:04:51,580 --> 00:05:00,210 seen as monolithic and something to dread and fear and uncertainty can be defined 69 00:05:00,290 --> 00:05:05,320 as taking two forms, generally speaking, although there's a lot of complexity and 70 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:10,270 debate, but nevertheless the first type of uncertainty is generally agreed to 71 00:05:10,270 --> 00:05:15,765 be what we might call the uncertainty or It's called aleatory uncertainty, and 72 00:05:15,765 --> 00:05:18,925 that's really just what humans can't know. 73 00:05:19,205 --> 00:05:24,775 So for an example, there might be a storm reported in the local media, 74 00:05:24,785 --> 00:05:28,995 it's heading your way, and despite all of the data and the modeling and 75 00:05:28,995 --> 00:05:33,925 the AI, you don't know when it'll hit and how much damage it will do. 76 00:05:34,625 --> 00:05:37,315 So that's what humans can't know, aleatory uncertainty. 77 00:05:37,535 --> 00:05:41,785 And then in complement is our epistemic uncertainty. 78 00:05:41,975 --> 00:05:43,935 That's really our inner uncertainty. 79 00:05:43,995 --> 00:05:48,025 And we can think of that as the human response to the unknown, 80 00:05:48,315 --> 00:05:52,335 so the storm is heading your way and you might be thinking. 81 00:05:52,875 --> 00:05:54,555 Ah, should I evacuate? 82 00:05:54,605 --> 00:05:56,804 Oh, should I batten the hatches? 83 00:05:56,805 --> 00:05:58,465 Should I, buy extra cereal? 84 00:05:59,205 --> 00:06:01,625 This is a state of uncertainty. 85 00:06:01,625 --> 00:06:05,825 It's not ignorance, but you're working at the edge of what you know. 86 00:06:05,835 --> 00:06:08,355 You've reached the limits of what you know. 87 00:06:08,705 --> 00:06:13,775 Hence, We are uneasy, but hence, there are multiple, as you can 88 00:06:13,775 --> 00:06:16,935 see from how I've described this scenario, there are multiple different 89 00:06:16,945 --> 00:06:18,365 possibilities, there are hints. 90 00:06:18,505 --> 00:06:24,045 So scientists actually call uncertainty a space of possibilities in, across many 91 00:06:24,045 --> 00:06:27,675 different disciplines, which I think is absolutely fascinating and tantalizing. 92 00:06:28,140 --> 00:06:29,570 Yeah, absolutely. 93 00:06:29,570 --> 00:06:34,420 You're providing this fresh perspective, I think, and combining it with 94 00:06:34,780 --> 00:06:39,870 all the research that you have put into this book, a lot of quite new 95 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,910 neuroscience, fascinating research about what happens in our brains. 96 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,030 So can you talk us through some of that, please? 97 00:06:47,775 --> 00:06:48,235 Sure. 98 00:06:48,345 --> 00:06:54,245 Just at the very basic level of when we as humans meet something new or 99 00:06:54,245 --> 00:06:57,175 ambiguous your body and brain, react. 100 00:06:57,195 --> 00:07:00,365 You actually experience a stress response. 101 00:07:00,375 --> 00:07:04,345 So that's at the heart of our dislike or unease with uncertainty. 102 00:07:04,345 --> 00:07:07,225 We are stressed by the new thing. 103 00:07:07,615 --> 00:07:15,390 And uncertainty causes a cascading series of Changes in your body and brain. 104 00:07:15,500 --> 00:07:19,820 So you might feel your heart race, at the report of the storm or when you 105 00:07:19,820 --> 00:07:24,290 fall into a traffic jam, you might have your palms sweat, etcetera. 106 00:07:24,380 --> 00:07:29,630 But what's new and really interesting is that neuroscientists have just, in the 107 00:07:29,630 --> 00:07:35,210 last decade or so, begun to unpack what's going on in the brain on uncertainty. 108 00:07:35,460 --> 00:07:41,460 So when you're unsure your working memory goes up, your attention 109 00:07:41,470 --> 00:07:46,440 sharpens- very interesting and a surprising facet of uncertainty. 110 00:07:46,850 --> 00:07:51,760 And so that doctors who are in difficult clinical situations, Who 111 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:56,790 are unsure actually report heightened attention, and that helps us perform. 112 00:07:56,970 --> 00:08:02,470 So in a nutshell, uncertainty is seen in neuroscience as a signal 113 00:08:02,500 --> 00:08:05,320 that autopilot should be over. 114 00:08:05,370 --> 00:08:09,100 We're no longer in routine, and now it's time to update 115 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:10,530 our understanding of the world. 116 00:08:10,850 --> 00:08:16,830 And so contrary to the popular assumption that uncertainty And it's 117 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,140 unease, it's something to retreat from. 118 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:25,650 Actually, the science tells us that this is the point when you are on your toes. 119 00:08:25,740 --> 00:08:29,720 Basically, uncertainty is the brain telling itself there's 120 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:30,960 something to be learned here. 121 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,480 That's another, point that a neuroscientist made to me. 122 00:08:33,730 --> 00:08:35,090 uncertainty itself. 123 00:08:35,270 --> 00:08:41,040 Not knowing which way the wind will blow, so to speak, is a state in which you 124 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,120 are readied for learning and performing. 125 00:08:44,420 --> 00:08:51,130 And that's a really tremendous, reset in our Just our basic 126 00:08:51,180 --> 00:08:52,920 ideas about uncertainty. 127 00:08:52,930 --> 00:08:53,700 It really turns it. 128 00:08:53,870 --> 00:08:58,230 But if you think about it, if you're in a challenging situation, giving a 129 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:03,220 speech or put on the spot or having a heated discussion, if you think 130 00:09:03,230 --> 00:09:09,965 about it, when you are I'm sure you do feel all cylinders, rising. 131 00:09:10,155 --> 00:09:13,055 And the other important point is that this is different from fear. 132 00:09:13,255 --> 00:09:17,085 It's very complicated, but just in very brief we have different stress 133 00:09:17,115 --> 00:09:18,955 systems in our body and brain. 134 00:09:19,165 --> 00:09:21,725 When you're afraid, your body is preparing you. 135 00:09:21,725 --> 00:09:26,085 Your heart might race, etc. But your body is preparing you to Flee or 136 00:09:26,085 --> 00:09:31,585 fight or to react simplistically, whereas the uncertainty response, 137 00:09:31,585 --> 00:09:36,755 a. k. a. arousal, scientifically speaking, is preparing you to, again, 138 00:09:36,835 --> 00:09:38,895 learn and perform so you can respond. 139 00:09:39,215 --> 00:09:42,705 You're actually being set up to do higher order thinking when you're 140 00:09:42,785 --> 00:09:46,215 unsure, but not when you're fearful. 141 00:09:46,275 --> 00:09:47,835 That's really important. 142 00:09:47,855 --> 00:09:53,705 And that kind of allows us to think of uncertainty as a space of wonder and 143 00:09:53,705 --> 00:09:57,775 curiosity and multiple possibility, etc. 144 00:09:57,785 --> 00:10:02,705 So we're really lifting the veil on a whole new story of 145 00:10:02,705 --> 00:10:04,295 uncertainty, as you mentioned. 146 00:10:04,985 --> 00:10:08,895 And it sounds so wonderfully exciting the way you describe it like that 147 00:10:08,945 --> 00:10:12,945 as well, thinking about uncertainty as you say, being a good stress 148 00:10:12,995 --> 00:10:19,345 response, having that wakefulness, that attentiveness being switched on and ready. 149 00:10:19,735 --> 00:10:24,165 So what does it mean for us to view uncertainty not knowing in this way? 150 00:10:25,410 --> 00:10:29,370 Well, I think it there are so many implications. 151 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:34,180 I mean, first of all, in the moment, in the challenging moment, when we 152 00:10:34,180 --> 00:10:38,770 meet up with something new, when our assumptions and our predictions 153 00:10:38,770 --> 00:10:44,080 and our expectations, all our home knowledge, you might not apply. 154 00:10:44,550 --> 00:10:51,040 In fact, very often in a novel, complex situation, what you knew isn't necessarily 155 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,810 going to equip you to face forward. 156 00:10:53,830 --> 00:10:55,260 It could be meeting a new person. 157 00:10:55,270 --> 00:10:57,320 Again, it could be a challenging project. 158 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,790 It could be looking at a challenging artwork, etc. So 159 00:11:01,070 --> 00:11:04,610 this is a, a real reset on it. 160 00:11:04,780 --> 00:11:09,640 How we face the unknown and going back to the definition we discussed, 161 00:11:10,140 --> 00:11:16,020 it's important to note that here we are in an era of rising volatility. 162 00:11:16,050 --> 00:11:20,640 I mean, no matter what our professions in geopolitics and economics and the climate 163 00:11:20,650 --> 00:11:22,740 in our daily lives and our work hours. 164 00:11:22,990 --> 00:11:25,500 We're faced with a lot more unpredictability. 165 00:11:25,710 --> 00:11:28,810 The IMF calls this the decade of uncertainty. 166 00:11:29,060 --> 00:11:31,990 But the question is how do we respond? 167 00:11:32,210 --> 00:11:37,590 So moving from the uncertainty that we can tackle with probabilistic 168 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:43,310 means and mathematical and all sorts of ways, but moving from that to our 169 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:50,250 uncertainty, it opens the door on a whole new spectrum of responses that 170 00:11:50,270 --> 00:11:53,420 really add up to skillfully being unsure. 171 00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:58,230 Whether you're not, you're daydreaming or you're a surgeon facing a crisis in the 172 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:04,630 operating room, or you're dealing with the divisiveness in our local politics 173 00:12:04,630 --> 00:12:09,155 or national politics, in all these situations wielding uncertainty rather 174 00:12:09,155 --> 00:12:13,695 than retreating from it or rather than thinking of it as passive is important. 175 00:12:13,895 --> 00:12:20,075 And then thirdly, I'll say that I think uncertainty really unlocks a 176 00:12:20,075 --> 00:12:23,655 very new and absolutely timely way. 177 00:12:23,945 --> 00:12:27,505 to face the volatility, the unpredictability, et cetera, 178 00:12:27,605 --> 00:12:30,695 with new definitions of success. 179 00:12:30,965 --> 00:12:37,045 Because we've leaned on and we've utilized and honed our veneration for 180 00:12:37,055 --> 00:12:40,465 efficiency and for speed and for sureness. 181 00:12:40,465 --> 00:12:44,740 And these are seen as the markers of success, but actually we've 182 00:12:44,740 --> 00:12:46,650 been wrong in many different ways. 183 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:54,100 Leadership is not necessarily in times of dynamic flux a quick, sure, snap judgment 184 00:12:54,370 --> 00:12:57,010 that we've come to associate with success. 185 00:12:57,050 --> 00:13:00,050 And that's true of many other professions too. 186 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,230 So I think Uncertainty opens up a whole new world. 187 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,570 It's really quite exciting and allows us to face what, seems to be a dark 188 00:13:08,570 --> 00:13:14,300 time with a new approach, but also a new set of tools, as I mentioned. 189 00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:15,080 Yeah. 190 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,220 And so much to unpack there in what you were talking about. 191 00:13:18,580 --> 00:13:22,230 And I love the way the book And we'll perhaps come on to this in a second, talk 192 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,240 about how we can apply this in our work. 193 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:29,070 This podcast is for people who work in museums and mainly for museum educators. 194 00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:31,990 And I have lots of ideas from reading the book about how we 195 00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:36,005 might apply some of these ideas or incorporate into our practice. 196 00:13:36,395 --> 00:13:40,115 But on a personal level, cause I like in the book that you look at 197 00:13:40,185 --> 00:13:44,135 uncertainty from a personal level, but also how it affects our lives as well. 198 00:13:44,525 --> 00:13:47,875 Could you tell us how we can build our tolerance for it? 199 00:13:47,885 --> 00:13:48,235 Because. 200 00:13:49,175 --> 00:13:54,025 It seems to me, and I'm unsure whether you think uncertainty is a skill or 201 00:13:54,025 --> 00:13:58,325 maybe it's even a disposition this is something that we can get better at. 202 00:13:59,345 --> 00:14:00,055 Exactly. 203 00:14:00,365 --> 00:14:02,415 And I think we can do so in two ways. 204 00:14:02,735 --> 00:14:04,915 And the answer is yes. 205 00:14:05,255 --> 00:14:07,805 Basically, uncertainty is a disposition. 206 00:14:08,255 --> 00:14:10,655 It's a stance, an approach to life. 207 00:14:10,655 --> 00:14:15,575 So Our approach to uncertainty is basically our approach to life because 208 00:14:15,575 --> 00:14:19,485 as one scientist told me, if you have difficulty with uncertainty, 209 00:14:19,495 --> 00:14:21,065 you're having difficulties with life. 210 00:14:21,075 --> 00:14:23,785 So it's basically we'll take that first. 211 00:14:23,795 --> 00:14:26,745 And then secondly, the answer is yes. 212 00:14:26,765 --> 00:14:28,735 It's also a skill set. 213 00:14:29,335 --> 00:14:32,840 So Tolerance of uncertainty is a personality trait. 214 00:14:33,100 --> 00:14:38,440 It's basically just like extroversion or conscientiousness, it's a 215 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,120 personality trait that's gaining a lot of scientific attentions. 216 00:14:42,430 --> 00:14:47,640 And in, in a nutshell if you are highly intolerant, we all fall 217 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,460 somewhere on the spectrum of way of intolerance or tolerance. 218 00:14:51,460 --> 00:14:55,485 If you're highly intolerant of uncertainty, you're more likely to be 219 00:14:55,495 --> 00:14:58,795 a rigid thinker, you dislike surprises. 220 00:14:59,025 --> 00:15:01,495 Knowledge as a rock to defend. 221 00:15:01,675 --> 00:15:04,635 I mean, there's a lot of, rigidity there. 222 00:15:05,065 --> 00:15:11,145 And if you're tolerant, on the other hand, you tend to like ambiguity 223 00:15:11,145 --> 00:15:14,405 or revel in complex problems or be a more flexible thinker. 224 00:15:14,545 --> 00:15:20,605 Knowledge as more like a tapestry that whose mutability Is its strength. 225 00:15:20,815 --> 00:15:23,535 Knowledge is changing, and so can we. 226 00:15:23,665 --> 00:15:24,795 And that's the difference. 227 00:15:24,965 --> 00:15:29,405 People who are intolerant of uncertainty actually have far more troubles during 228 00:15:29,405 --> 00:15:31,445 the acute phase of the pandemic. 229 00:15:31,995 --> 00:15:38,055 The intolerant people were more likely to turn to denial, avoidance and 230 00:15:38,165 --> 00:15:43,475 abuse of substances to cope with the very overwhelming advent of COVID. 231 00:15:44,005 --> 00:15:48,575 Whereas people who are tolerant were more likely to accept the 232 00:15:48,575 --> 00:15:50,235 realities of the situation. 233 00:15:50,455 --> 00:15:53,185 And I'll also add that to answer your question. 234 00:15:53,605 --> 00:15:55,615 It is changeable. 235 00:15:55,635 --> 00:15:56,715 It can be developed. 236 00:15:56,725 --> 00:16:01,185 So your tolerance of uncertainty can be boosted, which is an 237 00:16:01,185 --> 00:16:05,005 extremely important thing to do, especially in times of change. 238 00:16:05,335 --> 00:16:11,035 And scientists, psychologists, even people in medical school faculties 239 00:16:11,035 --> 00:16:16,535 are working on helping them bolster tolerance of uncertainty, even tolerance 240 00:16:16,535 --> 00:16:19,495 of ambiguity through very simple steps. 241 00:16:19,795 --> 00:16:22,445 And they're based on exposure therapy. 242 00:16:22,445 --> 00:16:28,575 So if I'm afraid of a dog, I learn to, sit with a puppy or a stuffed toy, I 243 00:16:28,585 --> 00:16:33,585 get more comfortable with, or I get more practice actually with, dogs of the world. 244 00:16:33,825 --> 00:16:36,015 Similarly, with the unknown. 245 00:16:36,375 --> 00:16:42,555 So if you want to bolster your tolerance of uncertainty experts challenge people 246 00:16:42,555 --> 00:16:48,035 to delegate more at work, cede a little control, try a new dish in a restaurant, 247 00:16:48,035 --> 00:16:52,145 something you'd never try necessarily, don't stick to the old and familiar. 248 00:16:52,465 --> 00:16:54,695 Try something if you're a mom. 249 00:16:54,935 --> 00:16:56,825 Let your kids pack their bags. 250 00:16:56,825 --> 00:17:00,565 I guess that's a offshoot of, uh, delegating more work. 251 00:17:00,565 --> 00:17:05,895 But you can see through our daily small granular choices that what we're 252 00:17:05,895 --> 00:17:15,990 doing is not necessarily learning that Uncertainty is more of a positive always. 253 00:17:16,050 --> 00:17:19,600 It's just that we're learning that our expectation that 254 00:17:19,610 --> 00:17:22,710 it is a disaster is wrong. 255 00:17:22,740 --> 00:17:26,860 So we're learning that there are multiple outcomes with uncertainty. 256 00:17:27,010 --> 00:17:31,770 And then when you experience them, then you can gain skill in 257 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:37,250 experiencing them well and skillfully stepping up to uncertainty and not 258 00:17:37,260 --> 00:17:38,990 retreating from it and hiding from it. 259 00:17:39,380 --> 00:17:42,520 But yes, it's very much also a skill. 260 00:17:43,260 --> 00:17:47,790 So the different types of uncertainty that are woven into our live 261 00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:50,030 arenas where we can gain skill. 262 00:17:50,050 --> 00:17:54,760 And ironically, I actually started to learn about this. 263 00:17:55,300 --> 00:18:00,210 The idea of skill and uncertainty through studying artisans. 264 00:18:00,550 --> 00:18:05,790 I was fascinated with the idea of skill in being an artisan, and particularly the 265 00:18:05,790 --> 00:18:11,740 work of David Pye, the great woodworker slash philosopher who called being 266 00:18:11,740 --> 00:18:14,250 an artisan 'a workmanship of risk'. 267 00:18:14,490 --> 00:18:16,930 He said 'the outcome is not known'. 268 00:18:16,940 --> 00:18:23,020 Now this he contrasted with automaticity and machine made objects. 269 00:18:23,660 --> 00:18:29,540 So when you are carving or making an artwork, you really don't know 270 00:18:29,550 --> 00:18:33,895 what the next piece will, next You know, act of the story will 271 00:18:33,895 --> 00:18:36,015 be you have to listen to the wood. 272 00:18:36,025 --> 00:18:39,935 You have to be open to your new ideas, etc. 273 00:18:39,945 --> 00:18:43,665 So it's an improvisational sort of work. 274 00:18:43,695 --> 00:18:51,125 And so is being uncertain in a skillful way, we can be improvisational open 275 00:18:51,125 --> 00:18:56,195 to what might come, but in an active way and with that skill comes the idea 276 00:18:56,195 --> 00:19:01,065 that we can improve, not just in our disposition, but also in the skill itself. 277 00:19:01,335 --> 00:19:02,845 You can be a better daydreamer. 278 00:19:02,875 --> 00:19:07,665 You can be a better listener to someone whose ideas you think you loathe. 279 00:19:07,985 --> 00:19:12,425 You can be better during a crisis, all with uncertainty, not despite it. 280 00:19:12,805 --> 00:19:17,465 And also with these ideas of skill and uncertainty come the idea of care. 281 00:19:17,975 --> 00:19:22,375 That's something a noted surgeon who studies uncertainty and surgical 282 00:19:22,385 --> 00:19:27,025 judgment told me her quote was, 'uncertainty, that's when you care'. 283 00:19:27,345 --> 00:19:31,805 And if you begin to think of that, you care enough to slow down a minute. 284 00:19:31,805 --> 00:19:33,885 You care enough to ponder the options. 285 00:19:33,885 --> 00:19:36,215 You care enough to heed multiple perspectives. 286 00:19:36,485 --> 00:19:39,575 Those are the markers of a person who's skillfully unsure. 287 00:19:39,815 --> 00:19:41,275 That's what the studies show. 288 00:19:42,325 --> 00:19:43,415 That's super interesting. 289 00:19:43,415 --> 00:19:47,895 I was thinking then about switching off that automatic response that you get 290 00:19:47,895 --> 00:19:52,345 when you're incredibly skillful, you're an expert at something and you have a 291 00:19:52,345 --> 00:19:56,625 kind of go- to response that you think, ah, this would work in this situation. 292 00:19:57,075 --> 00:20:00,415 And sometimes that's not always the best response, but your brain 293 00:20:00,415 --> 00:20:02,215 is going there automatically. 294 00:20:02,545 --> 00:20:06,765 So when we're more open, more receptive to this uncertainty, we are 295 00:20:07,390 --> 00:20:10,550 asking ourselves the question, what would happen if, what would happen 296 00:20:10,550 --> 00:20:12,380 if this happened or that happened? 297 00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:17,150 And seeing that there are other perspectives out there You gave me a 298 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,870 really nice link there as well, because I was thinking about our work as museum 299 00:20:21,870 --> 00:20:24,070 educators, the work we do in museums. 300 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,650 And when I was reading the book, I was thinking, well, we deal 301 00:20:28,650 --> 00:20:30,230 with the uncertainty every day. 302 00:20:30,310 --> 00:20:32,380 Everyone deals with uncertainty every day. 303 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,010 But for the museum educator, you are meeting lots of 304 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,180 different people every day. 305 00:20:37,180 --> 00:20:39,930 You are in different situations in the museum. 306 00:20:40,270 --> 00:20:42,770 You are working with different artworks and objects. 307 00:20:42,790 --> 00:20:46,405 And there are all sorts of things that can happen, all sorts of 308 00:20:46,405 --> 00:20:50,465 things that can go wrong, even if you have a plan and a structure. 309 00:20:50,865 --> 00:20:55,785 So I loved thinking about your book and your work and your research 310 00:20:56,015 --> 00:20:57,805 in terms of our work as well. 311 00:20:57,815 --> 00:21:02,105 And I'd love to move on to thinking about how you think about your research 312 00:21:02,115 --> 00:21:04,030 might relate to what we do in museums. 313 00:21:04,970 --> 00:21:11,160 Well, I think it relates enormously and significantly, and again, it might open up 314 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:18,240 new pathways to a new approach to museum work, actually that's necessary and that's 315 00:21:18,290 --> 00:21:20,990 more beneficial in a time of, dynamism. 316 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,100 When we can open the door to uncertainty, we open the door to 317 00:21:25,230 --> 00:21:26,890 the dynamism that you mentioned. 318 00:21:26,940 --> 00:21:31,680 You know, creativity is not about making precise widgets. 319 00:21:31,850 --> 00:21:35,730 Creativity is in itself an uncertain venture where 320 00:21:35,770 --> 00:21:37,580 unsureness is part and parcel. 321 00:21:37,820 --> 00:21:43,210 I mean, collecting, conserving, these are again, areas of the world that 322 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:47,900 are not benefitted by black and white judgments and right now, of course, 323 00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:52,440 as museums strive to be more flexible to open their doors to more different 324 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:58,790 groups, the inclusivity and the multiple perspectives that being unsure offers are 325 00:21:58,790 --> 00:22:00,840 really important for museum work today. 326 00:22:01,060 --> 00:22:02,250 And then, Education. 327 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:08,570 I mean, education often used to be thought of as Pavlovian, but actually a 328 00:22:08,610 --> 00:22:12,860 much More predominant view of education now, based on all the new brain work, 329 00:22:12,860 --> 00:22:15,410 is that it's really all about surprise. 330 00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:18,900 Learning is about what's called prediction errors. 331 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,720 So as we go along in life. 332 00:22:22,505 --> 00:22:27,865 We expect and we assume that your front door of your house will be 333 00:22:27,865 --> 00:22:31,705 the same, that you know how to, make a cup of coffee, etc. That's how 334 00:22:31,705 --> 00:22:33,525 we move smoothly through our days. 335 00:22:33,895 --> 00:22:38,580 When reality contradicts to your expectation. 336 00:22:38,590 --> 00:22:41,920 That's what's called in neural terms of prediction error. 337 00:22:42,010 --> 00:22:45,640 There's a gap between reality and what your senses are telling you. 338 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,230 And that's where learning occurs. 339 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,100 That's why babies are great learners. 340 00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:51,080 And so I think. 341 00:22:52,105 --> 00:22:58,855 In all sorts of ways, and particularly for museum educators uncertainty could 342 00:22:58,855 --> 00:23:05,875 provide a very potent foundation for a new approach that really strives for the kind 343 00:23:05,875 --> 00:23:08,485 of values that we need and want today. 344 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:14,020 Yeah, I think I'm nodding my head here wholeheartedly that museum education 345 00:23:14,030 --> 00:23:20,070 has undergone quite a big transformation anyway in the last 20 or so years as we're 346 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:25,010 moving away from the transmission model, very much guided tours of the past, and 347 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:30,630 still in, in some organizations, still very much the model where an educator with 348 00:23:30,810 --> 00:23:35,595 'all the knowledge' will then transmit that information in a way to their group. 349 00:23:35,615 --> 00:23:40,655 And moving towards this inquiry based version, which is based on open ended 350 00:23:40,655 --> 00:23:44,745 questions, seeking perspectives from our participants, making them feel 351 00:23:44,755 --> 00:23:50,480 comfortable and really listening to their thoughts about what they're looking at. 352 00:23:50,810 --> 00:23:54,890 I'm really excited by thinking about the way uncertainty can change how we might 353 00:23:54,900 --> 00:24:00,580 engage with art, as you say, and objects, and really invites in all those different 354 00:24:00,580 --> 00:24:02,670 perspectives that we can hear from people. 355 00:24:03,285 --> 00:24:03,715 Yes. 356 00:24:03,735 --> 00:24:09,395 And for a talk I'm giving in a month or so I was just preparing or learning 357 00:24:09,405 --> 00:24:14,035 about Hokusai's Under the Wave at Kanagawa, usually called the Great Wave. 358 00:24:14,195 --> 00:24:18,385 Now, that is one of the world's most popular icons of visual images. 359 00:24:18,415 --> 00:24:23,895 And yet it's something that we might dismiss as a cliche because it. 360 00:24:24,255 --> 00:24:30,675 I sensed that it had something to do with uncertainty, I began to research the, 361 00:24:30,675 --> 00:24:36,895 background of Hokusai, the artist who was extraordinarily adaptable and curious, and 362 00:24:36,915 --> 00:24:42,015 also the wave is so much more a painting about uncertainty and facing the unknown, 363 00:24:42,675 --> 00:24:47,735 as a metaphor for Japan's opening up to the world in the 19th century, and so 364 00:24:47,735 --> 00:24:52,395 if I had just dismissed that and said, 'Oh, yeah, I know that's about threat. 365 00:24:52,395 --> 00:24:52,415 Yeah. 366 00:24:52,655 --> 00:24:58,295 Okay, nice image, good for branding on my little PowerPoint', but there was so much 367 00:24:58,315 --> 00:25:03,725 more uncertainty, slows us down, offers us a chance to gain nuance, perspective, 368 00:25:03,765 --> 00:25:09,675 complexity and to listen to the signal of that prediction error, that reality check 369 00:25:09,725 --> 00:25:11,435 that uncertainty is trying to point us to. 370 00:25:11,755 --> 00:25:14,620 The other thing I think is really important, and you've, mention 371 00:25:14,620 --> 00:25:19,430 that a little bit is the idea that as educators, we know. 372 00:25:19,470 --> 00:25:22,930 Now the educator is the educated person. 373 00:25:23,270 --> 00:25:29,430 They are opening up these wonderful worlds of learning to the visitor to the museum. 374 00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:34,950 And yet, in so many different fields there's been a kind of a 375 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,920 misnomer about what an expert is. 376 00:25:38,220 --> 00:25:42,660 And this is one of the most powerful findings I came across in all 377 00:25:42,660 --> 00:25:44,100 my research about uncertainty. 378 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,690 In a nutshell, the true expert is the person who knows 379 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,550 when and how to be unsure. 380 00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:57,125 And so If you think about it, we gain expertise by practice, experience, 381 00:25:57,165 --> 00:26:01,325 learning the canon, etc. Therefore, knowledge becomes know how. 382 00:26:01,545 --> 00:26:02,155 That's simple. 383 00:26:02,305 --> 00:26:03,715 That's where we get the fluency. 384 00:26:03,855 --> 00:26:12,215 When an expert sees a painting or sees even a situation, they know how to apply 385 00:26:12,215 --> 00:26:17,025 their knowledge, because they've been there in the past, they recognize this is 386 00:26:17,025 --> 00:26:20,755 a situation they've dealt with in the past and they recognize a rewarding solution. 387 00:26:20,815 --> 00:26:24,405 This painting is about X. That's what I learned in my training. 388 00:26:24,735 --> 00:26:29,415 At the same time, This kind of expertise, while it's a very important, 389 00:26:29,445 --> 00:26:35,115 impressive stage of expertise is actually only useful in predictable, 390 00:26:35,185 --> 00:26:37,065 so called benign situations. 391 00:26:37,255 --> 00:26:41,895 So if something is different, say the art history world has discovered something 392 00:26:41,895 --> 00:26:47,815 completely new about Hokusai's The Wave, or a child asks a question that 393 00:26:47,835 --> 00:26:50,125 you've never heard in 30 years before. 394 00:26:50,385 --> 00:26:55,215 If you're dealing with something new, that old expertise Isn't going to suffice. 395 00:26:55,235 --> 00:26:56,725 In fact, even is wrong. 396 00:26:56,885 --> 00:26:59,775 Our first thoughts that come to mind, especially as 397 00:26:59,775 --> 00:27:02,435 experts, are based on the past. 398 00:27:02,725 --> 00:27:09,285 What you want to do in dynamic situations and in order to be curious, is to 399 00:27:09,415 --> 00:27:13,345 work at the edge of your knowledge in the space of possibilities. 400 00:27:13,345 --> 00:27:14,315 That's uncertainty. 401 00:27:14,585 --> 00:27:18,505 So study after study in many different fields, show that years of experience 402 00:27:18,535 --> 00:27:23,825 are only weakly or not correlated at all with skill and accuracy. 403 00:27:24,075 --> 00:27:24,595 Wow. 404 00:27:24,775 --> 00:27:30,585 I mean, that's just to put a different example and accounting, senior 405 00:27:30,585 --> 00:27:34,835 accountants are actually less good at finding embezzlement in the books than 406 00:27:34,875 --> 00:27:36,805 undergraduate and counting students. 407 00:27:36,815 --> 00:27:40,535 So we might think this is maybe something to do with beginning mind. 408 00:27:40,535 --> 00:27:47,005 And yes, actually now researchers have discovered a higher echelon of 409 00:27:47,155 --> 00:27:49,885 expertise called adaptive expertise. 410 00:27:50,185 --> 00:27:55,865 This actually came from the work of a. a Japanese educator in the 1980s 411 00:27:55,865 --> 00:27:59,355 who was dealing with very small children, but adaptive expertise 412 00:27:59,395 --> 00:28:04,355 is studied and even being trained in education, in engineering, in 413 00:28:04,355 --> 00:28:06,515 design, in medicine, et cetera. 414 00:28:06,525 --> 00:28:10,125 So it's extremely important that we understand the difference between 415 00:28:10,125 --> 00:28:11,705 routine and adaptive experts. 416 00:28:11,965 --> 00:28:16,415 Just briefly, adaptive experts do several things. 417 00:28:16,705 --> 00:28:18,715 They inhabit the question. 418 00:28:19,165 --> 00:28:25,015 So adaptive experts spend more time diagnosing a new situation 419 00:28:25,185 --> 00:28:27,855 than even novices do on average. 420 00:28:28,085 --> 00:28:29,855 They wade into the question. 421 00:28:29,965 --> 00:28:31,945 Sometimes it's just for a few minutes. 422 00:28:32,495 --> 00:28:38,825 When the child asks that amazing, strange, and new question, it just 423 00:28:38,825 --> 00:28:45,845 might take a few minutes to open up the group to exploring together, not 424 00:28:45,855 --> 00:28:50,825 to being the expert who dismisses or hands down the pat answer that's worked 425 00:28:50,825 --> 00:28:53,125 in the past, just as an example. 426 00:28:53,365 --> 00:28:57,965 Adaptive experts, secondly, widen the frame of their understanding, so 427 00:28:57,965 --> 00:29:00,425 they explore multiple possibilities. 428 00:29:00,515 --> 00:29:03,965 Again, this is according to many studies across different professions. 429 00:29:04,205 --> 00:29:06,205 And then finally they widen and deepen. 430 00:29:06,415 --> 00:29:08,965 Deepen means they test and evaluate. 431 00:29:09,235 --> 00:29:12,245 So basically they're not just thinking 'it could be this, it could be that', 432 00:29:12,245 --> 00:29:17,820 but then they're taking a couple of next steps forward, either in the mind or 433 00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:22,960 sometimes scientifically or in real life, testing out those other possibilities. 434 00:29:23,270 --> 00:29:27,420 And basically, in a nutshell, adaptive experts listen to the 435 00:29:27,420 --> 00:29:31,710 story that the problem, not their assumptions, wants to tell. 436 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,610 Which is, change is not just what it means to be an expert in a new, complex, 437 00:29:37,610 --> 00:29:39,960 challenging moment, but also over time. 438 00:29:40,260 --> 00:29:41,580 The adaptive expert. 439 00:29:42,235 --> 00:29:46,175 loves errors and mistakes and even detours. 440 00:29:46,175 --> 00:29:48,165 The nonlinear is okay. 441 00:29:48,455 --> 00:29:53,665 The adaptive expert sees themselves as a partner in learning and in care, 442 00:29:53,905 --> 00:29:58,275 not just a authority handing down the right judgment and everybody 443 00:29:58,275 --> 00:30:01,350 else's, oh, a novice, or wrong. 444 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:07,270 And then the adaptive expert takes on harder cases, so they might, I don't 445 00:30:07,270 --> 00:30:11,560 know, develop the tour that they're uncomfortable giving or, work at the edge. 446 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:16,230 I love the idea that this is all about edge work, and so I, I think that is very 447 00:30:16,390 --> 00:30:18,730 applicable to museum education, possibly. 448 00:30:19,165 --> 00:30:19,955 Absolutely. 449 00:30:20,055 --> 00:30:25,055 we talk about this a lot on this podcast, even challenging yourself to change 450 00:30:25,055 --> 00:30:27,605 up what you're doing on your tour. 451 00:30:27,605 --> 00:30:32,025 Think about the questions that you're asking, how you're inviting the group 452 00:30:32,055 --> 00:30:36,115 into the conversation, even challenge yourself, perhaps to work with an object 453 00:30:36,125 --> 00:30:40,615 that you thought was perhaps, speech marks, "boring" or uninteresting and 454 00:30:40,615 --> 00:30:44,675 seeing what you find out doing that research like you did with the Hokusai 455 00:30:44,675 --> 00:30:49,145 painting and seeing what you discover and thinking, can I go anywhere with this? 456 00:30:49,165 --> 00:30:50,475 What are the possibilities? 457 00:30:50,485 --> 00:30:55,365 So being happy in that, not knowing for a bit and playing with the 458 00:30:55,365 --> 00:30:57,545 options, working with your curiosity. 459 00:30:57,545 --> 00:31:01,025 I think all of that is sounds particularly relevant to us. 460 00:31:01,535 --> 00:31:07,245 Yes, and I think that circling back to our discussion of tolerance 461 00:31:07,245 --> 00:31:08,965 of uncertainty and what it means. 462 00:31:09,425 --> 00:31:14,340 I think you mentioned that the bottom line marker, the difference between 463 00:31:14,350 --> 00:31:19,850 being intolerant and tolerant, being closed or open, is whether or not you're 464 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,950 threatened by uncertainty, and then you want to retreat, or you're challenged. 465 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,050 Now notice, underscore, challenge. 466 00:31:27,230 --> 00:31:31,260 So I use the word comfortable, but it's not really a picnic. 467 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:32,570 Uncertainty never will be. 468 00:31:32,590 --> 00:31:34,095 That's where we are. 469 00:31:34,195 --> 00:31:35,395 Rising to the occasion. 470 00:31:35,535 --> 00:31:37,245 That's where we're stretching ourselves. 471 00:31:37,435 --> 00:31:41,275 It's never going to be feet up on the sofa eating potato 472 00:31:41,275 --> 00:31:43,045 chips kind of moment in life. 473 00:31:43,325 --> 00:31:49,475 And yet that's where we can, cope with whatever life Throws at us. 474 00:31:49,485 --> 00:31:52,485 So I think that's a really wonderful and it's not, it 475 00:31:52,485 --> 00:31:53,985 doesn't have to be all the time. 476 00:31:53,985 --> 00:31:55,435 Uncertainty is special. 477 00:31:55,935 --> 00:31:59,335 It doesn't mean that we throw out the everyday, the routine, the 478 00:31:59,335 --> 00:32:01,535 knowledge that we do know, et cetera. 479 00:32:01,565 --> 00:32:06,195 But I have a little museum example story that also might drive home the 480 00:32:06,195 --> 00:32:10,515 difference between these two types of expertise, and I came across the story 481 00:32:10,555 --> 00:32:18,885 of a museum director in Benin, and she started the first ever modern museum in 482 00:32:18,915 --> 00:32:23,955 Benin in Africa, and there really hadn't been very many museums with four walls. 483 00:32:24,345 --> 00:32:29,815 To begin with, she was schooled and raised in France, largely so she really 484 00:32:29,815 --> 00:32:32,345 tried to model this museum on the West. 485 00:32:32,395 --> 00:32:37,830 But then she realized that Well, the former ancient kings of Dahomey in 486 00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:43,840 that region of Africa had always once a year or more brought their palatial 487 00:32:43,870 --> 00:32:47,640 artworks out into the streets and the marketplaces, the museum came to the 488 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,100 people, and that changed her mind. 489 00:32:50,110 --> 00:32:56,620 She didn't have to, work with the old models, which is, routine expertise, as 490 00:32:56,620 --> 00:33:02,000 important as it is, she realized that she could bring the art to the people. 491 00:33:02,190 --> 00:33:05,810 Just a lovely example is that she commissioned a 492 00:33:05,810 --> 00:33:07,490 songwriter for every exhibit. 493 00:33:07,650 --> 00:33:14,100 So the song of the exhibit was actually on the charts in, Benin and she worked 494 00:33:14,100 --> 00:33:19,065 with what might be, what could be rather than what had come before, and 495 00:33:19,065 --> 00:33:20,525 I think that's a wonderful example. 496 00:33:20,825 --> 00:33:21,795 Yeah, absolutely. 497 00:33:21,805 --> 00:33:22,805 Thanks for sharing that. 498 00:33:22,835 --> 00:33:27,545 And I think thinking about our work as facilitators of these experiences, perhaps 499 00:33:27,545 --> 00:33:31,665 we could move from being the facilitator to actually talking about the groups we 500 00:33:31,665 --> 00:33:36,025 work with every day as well, because I think there's some applications here too. 501 00:33:36,025 --> 00:33:38,165 So we work with different groups every day. 502 00:33:38,685 --> 00:33:41,415 And we have to embrace this uncertainty. 503 00:33:41,415 --> 00:33:43,045 We don't know who we're getting in our group. 504 00:33:43,045 --> 00:33:49,215 Sometimes we also have to be able to facilitate conversations that 505 00:33:49,215 --> 00:33:50,425 involve different perspectives. 506 00:33:50,435 --> 00:33:52,235 So people will share different views. 507 00:33:52,545 --> 00:33:54,355 Some of those can be quite challenging. 508 00:33:54,365 --> 00:33:59,475 As you said we live in quite polarized times, quite volatile times. 509 00:33:59,475 --> 00:34:02,445 We're not sure what comments people might come up with. 510 00:34:02,535 --> 00:34:05,325 So you mentioned in your book you found something quite 511 00:34:05,345 --> 00:34:09,655 interesting about disagreement and can actually help groups learn. 512 00:34:09,665 --> 00:34:11,815 So can you tell us a little bit more about that? 513 00:34:12,415 --> 00:34:12,915 Yes. 514 00:34:12,945 --> 00:34:18,305 And in fact, uncertainty and disagreement have a very interesting and catalyzing 515 00:34:19,325 --> 00:34:22,865 effect on good group collaboration. 516 00:34:23,155 --> 00:34:24,855 And that's really interesting. 517 00:34:24,935 --> 00:34:29,395 I mean today We often think about smoothing over frictions, 518 00:34:29,445 --> 00:34:31,125 particularly of diverse situations. 519 00:34:31,415 --> 00:34:35,675 We think about getting on the same page as quickly as possible, whether you're in 520 00:34:35,685 --> 00:34:37,905 a workplace or in an education situation. 521 00:34:38,315 --> 00:34:41,105 But and of course, agreement is very important. 522 00:34:41,345 --> 00:34:44,245 Agreement is the end goal. 523 00:34:44,255 --> 00:34:49,585 We want to be on the same page, roughly speaking, or at least not be completely 524 00:34:49,605 --> 00:34:53,945 at each other's throats in terms of assessment or any kind of work. 525 00:34:54,235 --> 00:35:00,420 But what's really interesting is that studies show that Teams or groups, even 526 00:35:00,430 --> 00:35:06,150 groups that come together temporarily like a tour that are in agreement 527 00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:08,520 actually suffer performance declines. 528 00:35:08,530 --> 00:35:13,000 So when a group is in agreement, no matter how diverse the group is, 529 00:35:13,230 --> 00:35:18,455 they see each other as more similar than they really are, they begin 530 00:35:18,485 --> 00:35:21,275 to stop challenging one another. 531 00:35:21,545 --> 00:35:25,105 They become less creative and less accurate. 532 00:35:25,515 --> 00:35:29,545 I mean, those are pretty significant deteriorations in what we might call 533 00:35:29,545 --> 00:35:32,305 collaborative performance as well. 534 00:35:32,375 --> 00:35:33,965 A team that's in agreement. 535 00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:40,320 Rapidly begins to see itself as doing better than they are because 536 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,060 that fluency and the smoothness of, I call it, hanging out on the love 537 00:35:45,060 --> 00:35:48,920 seat of a cord, because it's smooth. 538 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,270 And so we mistake it for excellence. 539 00:35:52,570 --> 00:35:58,520 And on the other hand, well, disagreement is important because then we air 540 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:03,080 differences and, I'm talking about respectful disagreements, airing different 541 00:36:03,340 --> 00:36:06,570 perspectives, etc. But why does that work? 542 00:36:06,580 --> 00:36:08,320 This is where it gets really interesting. 543 00:36:08,650 --> 00:36:14,130 And we often think that disagreement is good or dissent is good 544 00:36:14,140 --> 00:36:18,350 because the right side will win or the right answer will win. 545 00:36:18,350 --> 00:36:18,405 Cool. 546 00:36:19,535 --> 00:36:24,815 And then everybody gets back into agreement, but actually studies show 547 00:36:24,875 --> 00:36:30,385 again in many different fields that even a dissenting or a disagreeing voice 548 00:36:30,635 --> 00:36:36,085 that's wrong, flat out wrong, actually promotes these performance gains, 549 00:36:36,135 --> 00:36:37,985 more creativity, accuracy, et cetera. 550 00:36:39,425 --> 00:36:45,185 Basically, what you really want in a group is to fuel 551 00:36:45,805 --> 00:36:47,995 uncertainty through disagreement. 552 00:36:48,215 --> 00:36:52,625 To disagree with one another, judiciously and productively, 553 00:36:52,895 --> 00:36:59,445 actually sparks a new group mindset, questioning, skepticism and also the 554 00:36:59,475 --> 00:37:01,455 understanding of what you don't know. 555 00:37:01,575 --> 00:37:06,310 Just for instance, A little word like maybe when you're in the middle 556 00:37:06,310 --> 00:37:10,640 of a disagreeing conversation, or maybe different parts of the team, 557 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,260 or the group, or the participants, the visitors that day really are 558 00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:18,950 sharing very opposing perspectives. 559 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:26,070 We might think as the expert, as the tour guide, as the engager, that we 560 00:37:26,070 --> 00:37:30,740 should, be more certain in order to move the group along, but actually, 561 00:37:30,945 --> 00:37:33,005 the word 'maybe' is a hedge word. 562 00:37:33,325 --> 00:37:36,945 Hedge words are: sometimes, at times, possibly, it could be. 563 00:37:37,185 --> 00:37:38,025 These are hedge words. 564 00:37:38,035 --> 00:37:43,205 And maybe, I like the best, it's like the poster child of uncertainty, 565 00:37:43,635 --> 00:37:45,745 maybe actually does two things. 566 00:37:45,745 --> 00:37:51,195 First, it signals that you The leader are approachable -studies out of Harvard 567 00:37:51,195 --> 00:37:55,435 show that to be the case, -and also that linguistically there's something 568 00:37:55,435 --> 00:38:00,195 more to know if you say maybe it's very powerful and contrary to some 569 00:38:00,195 --> 00:38:02,465 opinions, it does not connote weakness. 570 00:38:02,835 --> 00:38:08,570 These same studies show that leaders and managers who Are willing to say 571 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:13,610 maybe during difficult conversations are seen as more professional and as better 572 00:38:13,610 --> 00:38:16,080 teammates and approachable, et cetera. 573 00:38:16,140 --> 00:38:16,690 Wow. 574 00:38:16,830 --> 00:38:21,450 And I did these wonderful explorations of the space program and particularly 575 00:38:21,450 --> 00:38:27,240 the team that put the rovers on Mars, those incredible robots and 20 percent of 576 00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:33,410 this incredibly diverse and very highly successful team, 20 percent of their 577 00:38:33,410 --> 00:38:36,730 conversations involved micro conflicts. 578 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,230 Again, I've read the transcript. 579 00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:42,720 ' Maybe it could be this that we're seeing on Mars' or 'maybe those rocks...' 580 00:38:42,740 --> 00:38:46,730 'well, I don't know,..' It was very gentle, subtle kinds of disagreements, 581 00:38:46,730 --> 00:38:52,330 but nevertheless, constant disagreements 20 percent were micro conflicts and a 582 00:38:52,330 --> 00:38:57,790 hundred percent of those micro conflicts involved expressions of uncertainty. 583 00:38:58,110 --> 00:39:03,130 So the scientists think that the success of that mission was really 584 00:39:03,130 --> 00:39:05,760 based on uncertainty and disagreement. 585 00:39:06,070 --> 00:39:12,500 And I think that, as I write about this topic, I ask why come together 586 00:39:12,530 --> 00:39:17,520 to be less than the sum of our remarkable parts, because they unearthed 587 00:39:17,550 --> 00:39:19,270 something called the hidden profile. 588 00:39:19,530 --> 00:39:25,280 So most groups actually only discuss what everybody already knows. 589 00:39:25,370 --> 00:39:28,750 I mean, maybe that rings bells for anybody who goes to meetings. 590 00:39:29,870 --> 00:39:35,400 That what's lost are the hidden profile of individual information that people 591 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:40,150 in the group have because it doesn't get aired because it gets overlooked. 592 00:39:40,420 --> 00:39:45,610 And so if you have this wonderful form of what I call 'uncommon ground 593 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,800 disagreement' and uncertainty, you unearth the hidden profile, what 594 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,990 could be more inclusive than that? 595 00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:56,270 And you can see how that moves the group forward to new frontiers. 596 00:39:56,875 --> 00:39:57,315 I love it. 597 00:39:57,365 --> 00:39:57,665 Yeah. 598 00:39:57,725 --> 00:40:00,395 And that tiny change as well that you were talking about with 599 00:40:00,395 --> 00:40:04,745 the hedge words, that tentative language, it's a really small change. 600 00:40:04,785 --> 00:40:08,375 We talk a lot about using conditional language, the mights, the woulds, 601 00:40:08,395 --> 00:40:12,185 the coulds and also bringing in that, that wondering as well. 602 00:40:12,185 --> 00:40:14,835 ' I'm wondering that this might be going on'. 603 00:40:14,835 --> 00:40:18,485 'What are you wondering about' showing that nobody's sure here? 604 00:40:18,985 --> 00:40:20,895 There are lots and lots of options. 605 00:40:20,895 --> 00:40:25,265 We're laying it wide open on the table and then it just invites all those 606 00:40:25,265 --> 00:40:26,855 other perspectives in, doesn't it? 607 00:40:27,265 --> 00:40:27,925 Exactly. 608 00:40:27,925 --> 00:40:31,615 It's all about opening the door to others, opening the door to our minds. 609 00:40:31,865 --> 00:40:36,755 And there are studies that show that people who are tolerant of uncertainty 610 00:40:37,095 --> 00:40:41,555 have no less assertiveness when they're in difficult conversations. 611 00:40:41,565 --> 00:40:46,180 So we, it's really important not to mistake uncertainty with wishy 612 00:40:46,180 --> 00:40:51,730 washiness, uncertainty is not the same thing - uncertainty and conviction 613 00:40:51,780 --> 00:40:58,260 can go hand in hand, but certainty is closing the door, locking the box, et 614 00:40:58,260 --> 00:41:04,200 cetera, shutting things down whereas you can be uncertain skillfully and 615 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,340 still have tremendous conviction, and I think that's really important. 616 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:09,710 Yeah, definitely. 617 00:41:09,770 --> 00:41:14,500 I want to move slightly over to perspective taking because you talk about 618 00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:17,900 it in, in the book and it's something that's very dear to my heart, something 619 00:41:17,900 --> 00:41:20,380 I do a lot of work with in the museum. 620 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,640 And you call it where did I write down? 621 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:23,150 No, yes. 622 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:28,200 The social side of uncertainty, which I thought was a lovely description of it. 623 00:41:28,580 --> 00:41:33,030 You mentioned the example of the LGBT outreach group in California. 624 00:41:33,030 --> 00:41:34,740 Can you share a little bit about that? 625 00:41:35,390 --> 00:41:35,960 Sure, sure. 626 00:41:36,010 --> 00:41:40,740 And the work on disagreement is also the social side of uncertainty. 627 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,430 There might be more sides of, social sides of uncertainty that I haven't uncovered. 628 00:41:45,710 --> 00:41:51,340 But I guess I was interested in Two aspects of our divided society today. 629 00:41:51,350 --> 00:41:57,650 First, we talked about disagreement and dissent, and that's often, letting, us 630 00:41:57,700 --> 00:42:01,170 air perspectives on so called 'our side'. 631 00:42:01,790 --> 00:42:06,420 But at the same time, uncertainty can bridge to the 'other', to the people we 632 00:42:06,430 --> 00:42:11,085 oppose, at etc. So there are two different ways in which uncertainty can help us 633 00:42:11,375 --> 00:42:13,485 tremendously in our social situations. 634 00:42:13,755 --> 00:42:20,005 I went canvassing in Los Angeles with a extremely creative and innovative 635 00:42:20,355 --> 00:42:22,065 group called the Leadership Lab. 636 00:42:22,285 --> 00:42:26,655 They were canvassers or activists for LGBTQ rights. 637 00:42:27,045 --> 00:42:31,515 And they also did a lot of research on their their kind 638 00:42:31,515 --> 00:42:33,225 of, Projects and missions. 639 00:42:33,235 --> 00:42:38,065 So there was a lot of actual gold standard academic research showing 640 00:42:38,075 --> 00:42:44,175 that in a nutshell, their approach to conversing with opponent voters 641 00:42:44,465 --> 00:42:47,965 was tremendously successful. 642 00:42:48,225 --> 00:42:52,615 And really at the bottom of that, at the heart, their conversations 643 00:42:52,615 --> 00:42:57,440 with opposing voters, people who are really against any kind of gay 644 00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,290 rights, transgender rights, et cetera. 645 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:04,240 Their conversations took seven years to hammer out and experiment 646 00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:10,470 with and at the bottom of what they finally did was a perspective taking. 647 00:43:10,750 --> 00:43:16,880 So, by success, I mean, they were able, in 10 minutes, approaching a stranger's 648 00:43:17,140 --> 00:43:23,720 doorstep in a 10 minute conversation to boost tolerance for transgender rights 649 00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:31,250 and other rights of minorities by as many sort of points on a scale as the American 650 00:43:31,260 --> 00:43:34,110 public rose in tolerance over 15 years. 651 00:43:34,110 --> 00:43:36,140 I mean, it was tremendous in just a few minutes. 652 00:43:36,430 --> 00:43:40,770 What they had been doing was talking at the voters. 653 00:43:41,450 --> 00:43:46,010 They basically used scripts, they used pre planned conversations and 654 00:43:46,030 --> 00:43:50,330 talking points, and they really thought that they would hammer these 655 00:43:50,330 --> 00:43:53,370 people to change to their opinion. 656 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,605 And what really turned things around was when they began to see 657 00:43:58,655 --> 00:44:04,735 the voter as just another human, not as a label, not as an ideology. 658 00:44:04,935 --> 00:44:11,005 They began to listen to the other side and they also began to take their perspective, 659 00:44:11,045 --> 00:44:14,125 to see the world through the voter's eyes. 660 00:44:14,365 --> 00:44:19,025 And this is something that also has been studied in very many different situations. 661 00:44:19,225 --> 00:44:26,335 If we can see the world through the eyes of a murderer or, a convicted 662 00:44:26,335 --> 00:44:30,655 felon or someone, again, whose politics we loathe, we actually begin 663 00:44:30,655 --> 00:44:35,515 to be willing to sit closer to them, to work with them, to et cetera. 664 00:44:35,525 --> 00:44:37,535 The changes are extraordinary. 665 00:44:37,885 --> 00:44:42,115 And this kind of perspective taking, I'll note is not empathy. 666 00:44:42,115 --> 00:44:44,105 It's not how does that person feel? 667 00:44:44,305 --> 00:44:47,225 It's actually what is their day like. 668 00:44:47,455 --> 00:44:49,805 How do they see the world? 669 00:44:49,865 --> 00:44:53,365 Let me project and imagine what the world looks like. 670 00:44:53,565 --> 00:44:55,475 Now, what's at the heart of this? 671 00:44:55,505 --> 00:44:58,655 What does this have to do with uncertainty other than you're putting 672 00:44:58,655 --> 00:45:02,825 a pause button on, hammering something over the head with your opinion? 673 00:45:03,265 --> 00:45:10,330 Really, the perspective taking is actually just a leap of imagination. 674 00:45:10,340 --> 00:45:12,880 You don't know what that voter is thinking. 675 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,460 You don't know what the convicted felon's day is like. 676 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:23,120 But that's the marvel and the miracle with this small, brief leap of 677 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:28,240 imagination, you are jolting your assumptions, you are willing yourself 678 00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:33,610 to be uncertain, you're practicing a form of uncertainty, so you get beyond 679 00:45:33,610 --> 00:45:35,300 your assumptions and your expectations. 680 00:45:35,300 --> 00:45:36,700 And you can see the theme here. 681 00:45:36,900 --> 00:45:40,320 We need and want to offer ourselves prediction errors. 682 00:45:40,590 --> 00:45:44,350 And then we begin to be opened up and there's so much more we 683 00:45:44,350 --> 00:45:48,420 can do to engage in these diverse conversations to talk to people. 684 00:45:48,550 --> 00:45:54,200 But unless we utilize productive uncertainty in this way, we 685 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,480 can't have the conversations that then build the relationships. 686 00:45:58,570 --> 00:45:59,770 That's really important. 687 00:45:59,970 --> 00:46:03,905 And I think this is something that we can also bring that I think 688 00:46:03,975 --> 00:46:08,795 perhaps your listeners can bring to the museum world because it's a 689 00:46:08,835 --> 00:46:15,695 very brief, free interesting little exercise in walking you don't have 690 00:46:15,695 --> 00:46:17,285 to walk a mile in someone's shoes. 691 00:46:17,285 --> 00:46:20,745 You just have to walk a minute in someone's shoes cognitively 692 00:46:21,075 --> 00:46:24,855 to really be on a different plane of existence with them. 693 00:46:24,895 --> 00:46:26,285 And that's very powerful. 694 00:46:26,635 --> 00:46:26,945 Yeah. 695 00:46:27,015 --> 00:46:30,935 It's a really powerful discussion that you can have with people with 696 00:46:30,935 --> 00:46:35,215 different types of objects with artworks, with photographs, documentary 697 00:46:35,215 --> 00:46:36,775 photographs, all sorts of things. 698 00:46:37,015 --> 00:46:39,665 And even we do a lot of work around imagining what 699 00:46:39,685 --> 00:46:41,015 perspectives are involved here. 700 00:46:41,165 --> 00:46:45,355 So even just improving that cognitive ability to think about, well, there 701 00:46:45,355 --> 00:46:49,225 are a range of perspectives beyond mine, because the brain obviously 702 00:46:49,225 --> 00:46:51,160 places ourselves there at the center. 703 00:46:51,180 --> 00:46:54,820 Yeah, I was delighted to read about that in your book as well. 704 00:46:54,870 --> 00:46:56,230 We are coming up to time. 705 00:46:56,250 --> 00:47:00,080 I have two last questions for you and they're related, so I am going 706 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:01,560 to ask them at the same time. 707 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:07,500 So If museum educators could take one key insight from your book, from 708 00:47:07,500 --> 00:47:11,020 your research about uncertainty, what would you hope it would be? 709 00:47:12,140 --> 00:47:16,280 And the second part of that question is, what did you take away from writing it? 710 00:47:17,140 --> 00:47:17,620 Sure. 711 00:47:18,030 --> 00:47:22,920 Well, I think maybe I'll add one and a half to your first question, but I think, 712 00:47:22,970 --> 00:47:30,200 try on the unknown every day, realizing that uncertainty again is not monolithic, 713 00:47:30,370 --> 00:47:32,340 it's woven into the fabric of our lives. 714 00:47:32,350 --> 00:47:37,860 So we have so many opportunities to try it on and to practice uncertainty. 715 00:47:37,870 --> 00:47:41,290 That's where the golden experiences come. 716 00:47:41,630 --> 00:47:47,780 And I'll also add that keep remembering that uncertainty is wisdom in motion. 717 00:47:49,350 --> 00:47:53,040 And then I, this book changed my life. 718 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:59,160 I mean, I, it's my third and I learned a lot and I might have changed many 719 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,630 practices in my life from writing about home or attention, but writing about 720 00:48:03,630 --> 00:48:12,415 uncertainty really helped me build a capacity for meeting the unknown with open 721 00:48:12,415 --> 00:48:15,135 eyes and open heart and with curiosity. 722 00:48:15,485 --> 00:48:19,635 So I think that, I mean, I'm a very curious person anyhow, I'm a journalist 723 00:48:19,635 --> 00:48:23,495 and I'm a researcher and I'm constantly sticking my nose and things, but it 724 00:48:23,495 --> 00:48:25,985 just made me that much more open. 725 00:48:26,325 --> 00:48:32,075 And even in terms of relationships, I think that so often in our culture, 726 00:48:32,085 --> 00:48:36,595 we think we need to offer answers to a friend in need or a family 727 00:48:36,595 --> 00:48:42,915 member in crisis or, even if we're imparting our knowledge to an audience. 728 00:48:43,085 --> 00:48:51,075 And instead I find myself far more open to not providing the fix, the solution, 729 00:48:51,405 --> 00:48:54,385 but working toward it incrementally. 730 00:48:54,405 --> 00:48:59,295 And then finally, I pause a lot more because pausing is very 731 00:48:59,295 --> 00:49:01,625 much a moment of uncertainty. 732 00:49:01,635 --> 00:49:03,315 It's a moment of suspense. 733 00:49:03,645 --> 00:49:08,825 And in another part of the book, I talk about what pausing does 734 00:49:08,855 --> 00:49:11,015 for your memory and your learning. 735 00:49:11,325 --> 00:49:15,240 Just pausing five minutes after learning new information, helps your 736 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:20,150 memory boost by up to 20 percent and there's a lot more to it than that. 737 00:49:20,150 --> 00:49:25,570 But in essence, instead of stacking and racing through interviews and readings 738 00:49:25,570 --> 00:49:32,085 and meetings during my day, I put in a little bit more time to not just breathe. 739 00:49:32,095 --> 00:49:33,465 This is not about rest. 740 00:49:33,505 --> 00:49:36,095 This is about a kind of activity. 741 00:49:36,165 --> 00:49:41,375 Nevertheless but it allows us to basically let our minds 742 00:49:41,375 --> 00:49:43,255 catch up with our experiences. 743 00:49:43,455 --> 00:49:46,675 And I find that the day is a little less of a blur. 744 00:49:46,995 --> 00:49:48,905 And so that's a wonderful feeling. 745 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,650 That's a wonderful takeaway to share with our listeners as well. 746 00:49:52,940 --> 00:49:55,820 Thank you so much, Maggie, for coming on the podcast today. 747 00:49:55,830 --> 00:49:58,540 Could you share with our listeners where they can find 748 00:49:58,540 --> 00:50:00,090 out more about you and your work? 749 00:50:01,050 --> 00:50:01,310 Great. 750 00:50:01,340 --> 00:50:04,940 Well, first, I think best starting point is my website. 751 00:50:05,695 --> 00:50:07,035 Maggie Jackson. 752 00:50:07,255 --> 00:50:12,475 com or just Google 'Maggie Jackson uncertain' and you'll find me and that 753 00:50:12,475 --> 00:50:16,775 has a lot of different interviews but also articles I've written, excerpts 754 00:50:16,775 --> 00:50:22,235 from the book and other resources about uncertainty as well as my other work. 755 00:50:22,825 --> 00:50:23,355 Perfect. 756 00:50:24,015 --> 00:50:26,715 Just leaves me to say goodbye and thank you very much for 757 00:50:26,715 --> 00:50:27,955 coming on The Art Engager. 758 00:50:28,435 --> 00:50:31,965 It's been such a pleasure and I think your work is so important 759 00:50:31,965 --> 00:50:33,525 and I'm really thrilled to be here. 760 00:50:34,035 --> 00:50:34,945 Thank you so much. 761 00:50:36,965 --> 00:50:39,875 So a huge thank you to Maggie for being on the show today. 762 00:50:40,235 --> 00:50:44,895 You'll find links to her award winning book 'Uncertain, the wisdom and wonder 763 00:50:44,925 --> 00:50:47,055 of being unsure' in the show notes. 764 00:50:47,685 --> 00:50:52,555 If you've enjoyed this episode or if any episode in our back catalogue 765 00:50:52,555 --> 00:50:56,975 has resonated with you, please consider supporting the Art Engager. 766 00:50:57,435 --> 00:51:01,805 You can now join us on Patreon with a simple monthly subscription 767 00:51:02,005 --> 00:51:04,225 to help keep this content coming. 768 00:51:04,765 --> 00:51:06,685 Thank you to all our new supporters. 769 00:51:06,975 --> 00:51:09,485 Your generosity makes a difference. 770 00:51:10,135 --> 00:51:15,525 Finally, don't forget to visit my website to learn more about the Art Engager book, 771 00:51:15,805 --> 00:51:18,545 available now wherever books are sold. 772 00:51:19,235 --> 00:51:20,235 That's it for today. 773 00:51:20,255 --> 00:51:22,025 Thank you so much for joining us. 774 00:51:22,165 --> 00:51:23,395 See you next time. 775 00:51:27,045 --> 00:51:31,815 Thank you for listening to the Art Engager podcast with me, Claire Bown. 776 00:51:32,395 --> 00:51:36,175 You can find more art engagement resources by visiting my website 777 00:51:36,505 --> 00:51:41,165 thinking museum.com, and you can also find me on Instagram at Thinking 778 00:51:41,165 --> 00:51:45,545 Museum, where I regularly share tips and tools on how to bring art 779 00:51:45,545 --> 00:51:48,215 to life and engage your audience. 780 00:51:49,385 --> 00:51:53,615 If you've enjoyed this episode, please share with others and subscribe to the 781 00:51:53,615 --> 00:51:57,395 show on your podcast player of choice. 782 00:51:57,395 --> 00:52:00,435 Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.