This is More Than Work, the podcast reminding you that your self worth is

made up of more than your job title.

Each week I'll talk to a guest about how they discovered that for themselves.

You'll hear about what they did, what they're doing, and who they are.

I'm your host, Rabiah.

I work in IT, perform standup comedy, write, volunteer, and of course, podcast.

Thank you for listening.

Here we go.

Welcome back to More Than Work everybody.

And this is actually the second time I'm welcoming you back because uh,

I did not press record for about like the last 10 or 15 minutes.

So my guest today, Jessica DeGroot, um, was also my guest about 15 minutes ago.

She's the president and founder of the ThirdPath Institute.

I'm really glad to have her on partly because she's so understanding.

So Jessica, thank you for being here.

My pleasure to be here.

Thank you for the doing the work that you're doing.

Really.

actually encouraging people to live lives, that's more than work is what ThirdPath

is all about, so I'm glad to be here.

Cool.

Well, I'm glad to have you.

So first of all, where am I talking to you from today?

You are talking to me from Philadelphia, but I am proud to say that ThirdPath

Institute has been a virtual organization since we were founded 25 years ago.

So this means that my employees are from across the country and the

services we provide aren't actually, not even just nationally anymore.

They are global.

We have people connecting to us from across the globe around the

ideas that we're trying to promote.

That's awesome.

Yeah, and it's, I mean, that's one thing that's cool is people from everywhere.

I can connect with people from everywhere.

I mean, I'm in London talking to you over there.

Um, from over there, from the US and you know, now we're, we're chatting

about more than work kind of and more than work adjacent, basically subject.

So first of all, I think we'll just start with what is ThirdPath Institute?

We are an organization that has been a long time advocate for the idea that

you've been promoting, which is, work is an important part of our lives, but

it shouldn't be, for most people, we don't want it to be all of our lives.

We want to have time for work, and in your case, standup comedy.

Um, or in my case, when I first started work and raising children,

and now it's work in elder care because my life continues and

different care needs, uh, emerge.

And so we've really created this community where people can find each

other and learn how to put into action the ideas that you're promoting.

How can I live a life that is more than work.

That includes work and something else?

Yeah, and that's something I definitely understand and get, and you know,

part of my story is just trying to define myself by more than work

and do things other than just work.

I mean, I think work's important and we have to do it and we have a lot of

things in our lives because someone's working, whether it's us or others.

But, um, one thing is you, you said you're all over and so you guys

have been working remotely for a lot longer than maybe a lot of people.

I mean, I've been working remotely for nine years at the company I've been at.

They were definitely ahead of the curve on that.

'cause a lot of people really only experienced that in the pandemic.

But how did you decide that that was the way to go?

Yeah.

Well, speaking of the pandemic, you know, you're, you're so right that that was a

kind of eye-opening experience for people.

Um, you know, for us as an organization, it's interesting.

There's so much cost savings, right?

We don't actually have to pay for rent somewhere.

And so as a nonprofit that's trying to change the world,

that's a big benefit, you know.

And it also, like we were talking about, means we could

connect with anybody anywhere.

Right from the start.

Um, so yes, I was located in Philadelphia, but I knew there was people across

the country, across the world who were trying to figure these things out.

The world of work had changed and we could do work differently,

and families had changed.

Honestly, one of my favorite things about our work is we really invite men

into these ideas and support dads to think about this stuff differently.

And we could find those dads anywhere, and they were excited to find

this community of people who were.

Bracing that family included men involved with care work, not just women.

Um, and so, you know, I think that we started because it made

sense to us to do this way.

But then I mentioned to you earlier that the ThirdPath community then was so much

more prepared when the pandemic hit.

Just like your organization.

We already knew those, the people in the community knew that people could

work remotely, they could work flexibly.

And so yes, the pandemic was hard for them, but they were so much

more able to, they were more nimble in how, in the response, and more

able to say, okay, let's do this.

And, and so it's really just proven that this is good for us personally.

This is good for our organizations.

And when leaders learn how to behave this way, that it really is the future of work.

Total.

Yeah, I totally agree.

And it did make it just more, I mean, it definitely made people

understand what we were doing.

'cause sometimes clients would struggle to understand, well you guys are remote.

How is that working?

Are you, how are you guys actually getting things done?

And then it changed to, okay, this is what we need to do and we're

gonna keep running our businesses.

And now there's kind of a swing back that's been interesting,

but there's been pushback from employees and I don't blame them.

What exactly does ThirdPath Institute do as far as just who, who they

serve and how they serve them?

Oh, most importantly, we are, uh, a in a thought leadership role and, we

do provide some direct services, and I'll talk about those in a second.

But I think the thing that I'm most proud about is that we have been one step ahead

in really promoting what the future of family and the future of work can look

like, um, and the future of family.

Meaning that we really can create families where there is

a more of a, a shared approach.

And that I'm not just talking about two parent households.

It could be a shared approach where it's a single parent sharing

with a grandparent, um, or, you know, whatever the solution is.

It's the idea that parenting is important and tiring.

The more we can bring others into the process of parenting in a way that

feels good and fair, the happier we will be as parents, and that's good for

our kids when we're happy as parents.

We also learned some skills in parenting that then really translate

into being able to be good and caring for our aging parents.

And so that's good for society too.

Um, so we've played this role of thought leadership around what families can

look like, but we've also supported leaders to do things differently,

and we've done that very specifically with some of the services we offer.

We have groups for leaders at different points in their careers where they can

find others who want to live this way and then feel supported in that process

of being part of a group who says, I wanna live a life that's more than work,

but I wanna be a great leader too.

Um, and by the way, what we've learned over the years, again, in this thought

leadership role, it's not that most work leaders, there are leaders who are total

workaholics who wanna stay that way.

Being an integrated leader is also challenging and I know that personally.

And so what we've learned is how to help leaders keep committed to that

goal of wanting to role model that they are, uh, care about work, but they also

care about their lives outside of work.

And the more you can get leaders to role model that and behave that

way, it just changes the whole organization, changes things for the

team, changes the whole organization.

So we are a thought leader.

We also provide services to families and we also provide services to people who

are moving ahead in their careers and want to stay committed to their lives

outside of work and be successful at work.

Yeah, that's great.

I mean, 'cause people, it's kind of coaching but in a different way.

Like not coaching to be hyper productive and like

yeah.

not have any spare time.

Yeah.

Which a lot of us don't need help doing that.

We just do that.

So what was your career before starting the ThirdPath and, and

what brought you to say this is something that I wanna promote?

That's a wonderful question.

Um, and there's lots of funny parts.

I could tell you, I'll tell you two stories.

One about the career side and one about the family side.

I went to Wharton, got my MBA, quickly saw that the world of work was not

ready for the ideas that I had.

There's lots of stories I could tell you about learning that lesson.

And so I said, okay, I'm gonna start an organization because

people need help right now.

If I wait for the world of work to change, their kids are gonna be all grown up.

So I just made a wild decision to start this nonprofit and that's, I'm

really proud of where we are today.

I think we were, it was a bold move and I'm really impressed with

what we've achieved, um, in the 25 years that we've been in existence.

And so I think that was part of it.

I saw the world of work needed support to change and I wanted to not wait

around for the world of work to change.

The other was back, way back in college.

I was curious.

My father had this big career and was very successful and

my mom was a stay-at-home mom.

And I think that what her work was was really important too.

It meant that I came home to a household that felt kind of quiet and I could

recharge and oh my goodness, we sat down to delicious meals as a family.

And yes, some of those meals were a little chaotic 'cause my family's a

little chaotic, but we were together and you know, there just was some rhythm

to our lives that, and she was also very involved with the community, and

I thought all of that was important.

So both were important.

My job, my father's job and my mom's job were both important.

And I remember in college saying, Hmm, how can I have both those things?

And I did a research project interviewing, this is back in the eighties when

this group of women could afford not to work, but they chose to work.

And I tried to see what made their lives easier.

And surprise, surprise, their husband's attitudes made a big, huge difference.

And so I joke that that's when I went looking for my husband, Jeffrey, I

knew that if I found the right person to partner with me in this journey,

um, it would make a big difference.

And it sure has.

Yeah.

Well, no, that's great.

And I think, yeah, I have friends who, I don't have kids, I have friends who have

kids who work and then one who recently stopped working, but because of being

able to really, but also not, it also was a very hard decision because there's

part of your identity tied to your job and you don't wanna be out of an industry

too long and all that kind of stuff.

But it is interesting because I think watching people struggle with

both parents working and, and that's generally what people have to do now.

I mean, honestly, like I don't.

I think it's really rare that there are people who don't have to do

that to, to just live and because of the cost of living everywhere.

But like I visited a friend and saw how chaotic it was and how hard, and, and

I just thought, oh gosh, no wonder you don't text me back, you know, like, this

is what you're dealing with every day.

And I'm like sitting here going, why don't you text me back?

And, and even the one who stopped working now, she's like full-time like so busy.

Right?

Because there's always gonna be something to fill your time, especially with kids.

And so I do think, yeah, the partnership and the idea of people

being partners to their spouse.

And I think it's, it's funny because over here in the UK a lot of people use the

word partner and they don't get married and they use the word partner, which you

know, used to be just when you talked about gay couples, it was their partner.

Now everyone says partner, but really everyone should want a partner.

Like even if, I think even if you're straight and you wouldn't call them your

partner, you do want a partner, You know?

I think that's like a way to go really than just, oh, this is

my husband or wife and I've, we have these roles and that's it.

I don't know.

I think it's kind of better thinking about you're both in it, you know, for the

Well, and it, just to underscore what you're saying, think about it.

So Jeffrey and I, you know, both didn't know what the heck to do when

our baby first child was born, right?

We had no idea.

Neither one of us had a clue what to do, but we were partners in

trying to figure this out, you know?

And we've learned so many skills over the years around how to do this well,

including the fact that Jeffrey's as skilled as I am in saying, are

we in balance or out of balance?

And, what do we need to do to change?

We are in this together to find, uh, the right balance.

And, and, and yes, our household was chaotic at times.

And yes, there were moments when it felt impossible.

I'm not pretending this was always easy.

Please.

I don't ever pretend that, but we learned skills over and over again,

including the most important skill, how to argue and get to a new idea.

Because there's gonna be times when you dis disagree, right?

But we were, we, we've gotten really good at that.

And so that just came in handy.

Across the life course because along comes elder care and you have

no clue what to do again, right?

And so there's just gonna be constant shifts both on work and life side that

you learn how to think about together and two minds are better than one.

And it's just been a great partnership.

So have you in your work though, like, and when you're putting together, you

know, papers about this kind of life or maybe putting together a new kind

of curriculum for certain people or whatever, Have you ever gotten out of

balance in work and said, oh, I'm not even living this ThirdPath life, you know?

Oh, oh my God.

Let me just tell you.

Yes, a hundred percent in 25 years, probably at least once

a year for those 25 years.

And, um, and every time I've learned something that's really been

relevant to teach to others, um.

You know, like I've learned a phrase, "code red moments".

Code Red Moments, we all go through them.

Work is too much.

Life is too much.

They're both too much.

Oh my gosh.

At ThirdPath, we even encourage all of our employees to talk about how their

balance is, and they give them a scale.

And a Code Red is a scale of five five.

It's five on work.

It's five on life because it happens.

And so we are constantly trying to think even as a team of how to avoid that.

But it's gonna, you know, sometimes it happens and I've just, you know,

there's just so many stories I could tell you Rabiah, about what we've

learned, what I've learned from those times, that then we've been able

to translate into something we can share with the ThirdPath community.

So, yes, wanna hear some of those times?

I'm happy to tell you about them.

Yeah, I mean we, yeah, I might wanna hear one.

I mean, I think the thing is, 'cause what I've found is, and in

different aspects and even like.

I lately have felt like a hypocrite with this podcast because I was totally,

just completely out of balance, I'd say.

And we even talked, I mean, even not pressing record.

I mean, today's been a kind of a crazy day for me.

But, um, you know, I think that one thing I found is just, there's this thought that

we have to be perfect at these things.

And, and the reason we're doing these things is because we're not perfect.

But there's this difficult like relationship with, oh, I'm gonna talk

about this with people on my podcast meanwhile, like, I'm that meme of that dog

typing when there's a fire all around me.

You know?

And that's what I, that's what feels like sometimes.

And so, yeah.

Maybe, do you, what was the most recent where you're just like, oh man,

I've gotta get this together again?

Yeah.

Yeah, and, and, and please, anybody listening in today.

Let's just be, give ourselves grace.

Um, you know, one of the things that Rabiah and I were talking

about is the difference between episodic versus chronic overwork.

And so anybody listening in today, there are gonna be periods when you

have episodic overwork, that's a given.

And what you wanna avoid is when you are at that place where

it's just constantly a problem.

And, and that's harder to change.

So this is gonna, um maybe it's TMI, but like there was a two year period recently

where I was feeling crushed by work and my husband was like, oh yeah, right.

You're, you're really, uh, you know, doing great here, Jess.

He, he's much nicer than that, but he was getting tired of it.

And what was going on was there were... and it's this leadership issue, right?

There's things that you can control as a leader and things

you can't control as a leader.

And we were needing to make some major changes in our board, which by the way,

I'm so impressed with where we are today.

But it took two years to make some of those changes.

They were very important to make.

It was not something you could delegate to somebody else.

It was something that had to be done and it had to be done in a

relatively short period of time.

And so it just took an enormous amount of work.

Speaking of, you know what you do and don't have control of change.

In that same period, there was some staffing issues that happened.

And again, my goal as a leader is to support my staff to live

whole lives, to do more than work.

And so if you're encouraging your team to have a whole life, they

don't have control over sometimes things happening in their lives.

And so we are a small, amazing team, and that means sometimes I need to step

in and do things to support my team.

So I was being pulled by my team to do some things and I was being

pulled by my board to do some things.

And luckily my husband had just retired so he was able to pick up at home and we

don't have kids at home anymore, so we made it through, but it was not pretty.

And, um, we now have a handout.

That's how I do things.

We now have a handout about how come that happens and what can you do about it.

So we live and learn.

Where there's a handout, there's a way, right?

Like.

I have a new PDF for you.

Here you go.

I like it though.

I mean, I'm, when I talk to a therapist or someone that goes, oh, and I'll

send you a PDF, I'm like, perfect.

You know, I want that PDF, like, that's great.

I'll tell you one tip.

One tip all the way through.

I have people I can talk to, speaking of therapists, I have a literally a

list of five people I can call at any time in the week, I'll text them and

I'll say, Hey, can we trade 10 minutes?

Because when you're going through that hard time, it is really easy to give up.

It's really easy to give up.

You know, whether that's the work side, that's hard, or the

home side, that's hard, right?.

You might be really frustrated with trying to change things at home.

And, um, what I've really learned is you need support around you

to, to kind of stay committed, resilient around the change process.

And I think that's, um, there's a lot of things I love about ThirdPath, but

our community of support is one of the things that I'm very, very proud of.

yeah, yeah, for sure.

One thing around all this too is just like with people working remotely or

hybrid or whatever, and sometimes it is isolating to be away from that office,

especially when you've been used to it.

Like is there anything that you found that helped people or like an insight

that you just had that was like, oh, this is actually what I've struggled

with and this is what I do about it?

Yeah, I have a handout for that.

Of course you do.

I knew you would.

I knew you would.

Uh, well, two in two ways.

You're asking as the individual who's working, um, in a hybrid

way, how to help that individual.

And then you're asking also I, or the way I interpret it

is, what can a team leader do?

Yeah.

True.

Yeah.

Um, because I think there's two sides of this coin again.

There's always two sides of the coin when it comes to these ideas.

What you can do personally and what your organization can

do that would be supportive.

So, um, I, let's, let's start with the personal and then let's make sure

we talk about the team, because I think they're both connected, right?

If you, if you have them both working well.

It makes a big difference.

I'm thinking about, uh, a young man I know who works fully remotely.

He has most of his, his career as a young person, and what I can really

see is that it could have been really isolating for him to, to work that way.

What I saw him do was say, okay, hmm, I need to build community.

I need to do things that's gonna make me.

Yes, work is a little isolating, but I need to do things to build community.

So he joined a running club.

He joined a soccer club.

He goes to work at a cafe instead of working always from home.

Um, and so he, he's, oh, he started doing a pancake breakfast on the weekends.

He now has a group of friends where they take turns cooking and serving

food for each other once a week.

So I think that he's a great example of, you know, you need to think outside

the box and put and, and put those into a rhythm that you, um, you had

a, a phrase we talked about early.

Respect your life outside of work.

Mm-hmm.

You need to put some parameters to respect your life outside of work.

'cause work will take every minute, every second that you have it.

And so I, I was just really impressed with this young man's approach to

thinking about, I, I am working in a way where I could become isolated,

but I'm going to be proactive.

Now I think there's some things we could do, uh, on the team level

that really makes a difference too.

And I wanna share those.

But any thoughts about that, those will resonate with you?

Yeah.

Well, one thing that, Last night I had a gig and there was a group of

people that were from a meetup group that were at the bar and then they

went into the gig and watched it.

And I thought that was cool.

'cause I hadn't seen a meetup group in a long time, like, and thought,

oh yeah, people are still doing this.

And that was cool.

And so it reminds me of just when you said he joined a running club and did

these things, I think, yeah, people just, they're, everyone wants connection,

whether they you know, and I'm not saying that's not a new thing that I'm saying.

I

No.

repeating what I've heard other people say, but I think it's true.

And so I think that Yeah, that makes sense.

And also, um, you said pancakes, so I just wanted to acknowledge that.

That sounds good.

Yeah.

Pancakes, pancake breakfast.

What a what?

I mean, it's so simple and yes, everybody loves it, you know.

What a great solution, um, makes everybody smile and, and everybody wants connection.

And so what we've learned at ThirdPath, and I'm just gonna, you know, be proud

about what we've done at ThirdPath.

We, we, the handout is a long list of things people can do in organizations

and we're happy to share those handouts.

Um.

That.

Uh, but at ThirdPath, one of the things we do that I think is just so easy is

whether I'm having a meeting one-on-one with somebody, or we're having our Monday

staff meeting, we start with something to get to know each other every single time.

That's gonna get remind us that we are not just workers.

So if I'm having a one-on-one meeting with someone, you know, the phrase they're

so used to me saying is, okay, tell me what's new and good from work and life.

Because, you know, I wanna start by hearing how things are going and sometimes

I can look at their face 'cause we're on Zoom and I'll say, okay, what's eh,

what's so not so great at work and life?

'cause I can tell from their face that things aren't great.

But because we've normalized talking about our lives at work and our lives outside

of work, and we just do that as a regular part of the process and we do it as a

staff um, it just means we're curious and we, you know, oh my gosh, how did

that, you know, reunion with your family, go, you know, how did that, whatever?

So I think that is just a very simple thing you can start doing with your

teams where you just normalize.

We're whole people.

We have more than work in our lives.

Um, and it just brings, makes it all more human.

Um, so that's one, one little tip.

So we have one project manager at work.

'cause our culture changed quite a bit, I think just over time.

And also we don't do the cameras most of the time.

And so the last Friday of every month we're all on camera, which

is cool 'cause we all connect.

Um, and actually Halloween that just passed was pretty fun for that too.

But we also have a question of the week, every Friday where it could be

like, what's your favorite superhero?

Or something more deep or your favorite childhood like toy

you played with or something.

And also since our, our company has other cul, like a lot of cultures in

it, like it's people from the US, people from Europe, sometimes on the call.

People from Argentina.

Um, we end up with a bunch of different kind of cultural exchange ideas

too like, oh, we didn't have that.

We had this and we learned quite a bit there, especially

around food food's, a connector.

But yeah, I think it's really good to connect people in that way for sure and

just have a real humanness to work, right?

Yeah.

Jessica, all this has been great and just kind of seeing how, I mean, you

were really forward thinking too, uh, about this because now you have

like the four day work week some places, and you have, you know, people

doing like digital nomad work from anywhere, all these kind of things.

Um, what if someone right now is just going, yeah, guys, all this sounds

great and I'm totally overwhelmed and I don't know what to do and

you're just talking about this.

What do you like?

Is there something you would say or even like, something they

could seek out at ThirdPath?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

In fact, um, this, this, what I'm gonna about to tell you about

is something we've figured out, I think even 15, 10 years ago.

Because we know that when people join ThirdPath that and join the ThirdPath

community, some are coming because they're already really quite good at

some of these things and they just wanna find fellow, you know, people who

understand their, their what they're.

What they're passionate about and how they wanna live their lives.

But others are joining because they're like coming up for air at a moment

in time when it feels impossible.

Now, that could be someone early in their career, but I've also met somebody late

in their career who is like, oh my gosh, I've been living this way for so long

and I don't want to do it one more day.

Well, we have something called an OMG (Overwhelm Mitigation Group) that they

can join, and it's really positive for a bunch of different reasons.

We've very intentionally designed it where you'll be in a group of people

virtually, so it can be from anywhere.

And because you're meeting other people, you don't feel alone.

You're like, oh, you are going through this too?

Phew.

I don't feel so bad.

And then we teach them some of those basic concepts I was telling you about.

These are skills.

These are things people can so much learn.

I'll tell you about one of 'em in a second that it's gonna feel

like a stretch for some people, but it's a really important skill.

And they get on this group once a month and it lets them sometime be the expert on

the topic that we're teaching and they'll, they'll say, oh, I've wrestled with that.

I've learned how to turn off work on vacation.

Let me tell you what I learned how to do.

'cause that's one of the things we teach people is how

to turn off work on vacation.

Um, and others times they'll be like, oh wow, I'm really struggling with this.

But because it meets for once a month, for a year, what it does is it lets people

keep on trying, failing, trying, failing until they get to a place where they're

feeling a little bit more successful.

And then we have some ways to support them after that too.

Um, so it's a really good first approach for someone who's struggling

and we're very proud of our success with helping people at that stage.

I wanna give you an example of a skill we teach that's gonna feel

really impossible for some people but so critical, and maybe it's one

that you've had some success with.

We call it creating quiet time.

In a chronic overwork workplace, back to that concept, people have

very little time to think and plan and say, did that actually work?

Should I do it again?

You can't do that on the run.

You can only do that if you actually have some time uninterrupted,

maybe two hours, maybe more, where you can think, plan, assess.

And so we really teach people what's getting in the way of

you creating routine quiet time?

And can we help you reduce some of those barriers?

Um, because by the way, if you wanna make a change in your life to get less

overwhelmed, one of the things you need to do is have a little time to think.

And so, like let's say you need to start delegating something.

Well, you can't just make it happen.

You've gotta think, who can I delegate it to?

Is that person ready to take it on?

What's the first step to make it happen?

So quiet time is actually a really critical skill in making change.

It's not an easy one.

And it's one of those ones where, because you're on a call for a few

months in a row, we can help each other think about how's that going.

So yeah, we have some great first steps for people and I'm very proud

of them and they work really well.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Yeah, and the quiet time is important.

I've been working on being more mindful and it's, it's a challenge,

but I think it's, it's good.

It's helpful.

I mean, even sometimes I'll just have, because I usually have

the radio on or whatever, music on or something, or podcast.

And sometimes like I'll just ride the tube, for example, with no nothing.

No noise other than what's around me.

And I did a hike recently where I just didn't turn on music at all.

And that was very surprising to me.

But, I just kind of was like, no, I'm gonna be here.

You know, and it's, it's helpful, you know?

Yeah.

Hiking in nature quietly.

Oh my goodness.

So powerful.

Yeah, it's really great.

Um, so one thing I like to ask people is, do you have any advice or mantra

that you like to share with people?

I mean, you've shared a lot, but like, just anything that has

kind of come to you over the past years and that you wanna share?

I know that what ThirdPath teaches feels a little bit

impossible if you're listening in.

You know, the idea that you can really create a partnership at home, um,

that you can work in a workplace that supports you to live a whole life.

I know that that can feel impossible.

And I guess my mantra is, yes, it can feel impossible, but you really can

make a, a next step towards change.

And that there really is a community of people right here, right

now who will help you do that.

And you know, it feels impossible, but oh my goodness, when you take those next

steps towards change, it is so rewarding.

And yeah, there's gonna be a moment when it goes back to impossible,

but you're more clear about what is possible and you're more able to stay

on track with what you really want.

So, um, it's not impossible.

It just feels impossible.

Yeah.

And that applies to so much too, so great.

Um, all right.

So next I have, uh, the fun five.

It's five questions that I came up with that I think are fun that

I like to get the answers to.

So, uh, we'll get into those.

So the first one is, what's the oldest T-shirt you have and still wear?

Yeah, I love your questions because this one was easy.

I have this very thin light cotton black T-shirt that I like to sleep in.

And it is not always easy to find that just right shirt.

So yeah, it might have a couple of holes in it, but it is my

favorite shirt to sleep in.

That's funny 'cause I was thinking about like this t-shirt.

I'm wearing a black T-shirt and I was just thinking, oh, I need to buy five of these.

Because they're like, so I get it.

I get it.

So if every day was really Groundhog's Day, like it felt like for a while,

and sometimes it still feels like, um, and you had the same song playing on

your radio every morning to wake you up, what song would you have play?

I had a funny thought about that one.

Honestly, Rabiah, I could not do it.

I would rather sleep in and miss my meeting than have to listen

to the same song every day.

That's just the truth.

Sorry.

Well, no, that's all right.

I mean, Bill Murray, it drove him crazy, you know?

So.

All right, that's fine.

Um, so let's see what you would get outta bed for though.

Coffee or tea or neither?

For sure.

Coffee.

Oh my gosh.

I mean, just that visual of the coffee cup and it's warm and you know,

I've got a little milk in it and we like strong coffee in our household.

Ah.

It is a great way to start the day that I get out of bed for.

Alright, there you go.

Um, okay.

Can you think of a time that you like laughed hard and you cried, or just

something that always gets you and maybe, you know, for you it might be

something with your kids, but like, just something that always makes you laugh?

Yeah, you and I were talking about this when we first met because honestly,

it's, I had to think about it and my go-to laugh out loud is I'm on that five

hour car ride that I go when I go visit my mom, and it's that last hour and I'm

exhausted and I don't wanna do it anymore.

And I put on some standup comedy to listen to and it really is, oh my God,

it just makes that last hour possible.

I just, you know, good standup comedy is just really delightful, so I'm glad

you're out there doing what you're doing.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

'cause we talked about like Nate Bargatze and stuff,

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Um, all right, cool.

Okay, so my last question is, who inspires you right now?

Hmm.

There's a lot of people I could list here, but today I am

gonna list my 96-year-old mom.

Mm.

I just spent 10 days with her helping her with some health issues and you know

what she does is her commitment at 96 to making the best day possible, the best

week possible, the best month possible.

I mean, goodness gracious.

It's really impressive to be 96 and just say, okay, I'm gonna make this work.

And so she's really impressed me.

Oh, amazing.

That's awesome.

Yeah, it's good you were able to spend that much time with her too.

Well, you know, flexible job.

More than work.

Put it all into action.

Yeah, that's true.

There you go.

you go.

Right from the right from our mouths, basically.

Cool.

Um, so just if someone wants to find you or find ThirdPath

Institute, where should they go?

Well, we have a great website full of tons of free information.

We're a nonprofit, so our goal is to give you free resources.

In fact, we have lots of handouts that you can download from our, we have,

you know, recordings of our podcasts that you can listen to on our website.

So that's a great resource to go to.

Third Path dot org (ThirdPath.org).

We also are on all the different socials.

We're, um, you know, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram.

So follow us.

We have, uh, some amazing little videos we send out to inspire you about

what's going on around work and life.

To just keep it, keep it all possible.

Awesome.

Yeah, and it's great that it's a nonprofit, so it's, you're not

trying to say, get our membership or whatever, but just here, go forth, you

we're here.

Join us.

Yeah.

Well, Jessica, thank you so much for being on More Than Work.

Really appreciate it.

it It's been delightful.

Keep on doing what you're doing too.

Thanks.

Thanks.

Thanks for listening.

You can learn more about the guest and what was talked about in the show notes.

Joe Maffia created the music you're listening to.

You can find him on Spotify at Joe M-A-F-F-I-A.

Rob Metke does all the design for which I'm so grateful.

You can find him online by searching Rob, M-E-T-K-E.

Please leave a review if you like the show and get in touch if you

have feedback or guest ideas.

The pod is on all the social channels at at More Than Work Pod

(@MoreThanWorkPod) or at Rabiah Comedy (@RabiahComedy) on TikTok.

While being kind to others, don't forget to be kind to yourself.