Welcome to the Creative Switch, the podcast inspiring the sensibly successful to switch on their unexpressed creativity for a more fulfilled life. If you want to turn your creative passion into a freelance career, where do you start and what is it really like balancing a need for a reliable income with your need to express yourself creatively? For respected digital illustrator and designer Lisa Maltby, these were the questions she faced when she decided to strike out on her own after 10 successful years working in creative agencies. Now, a further 10 years on, in our conversation we cover these questions and many more as Lisa generously shares her story and the creative wisdom she has gained along the way. For anyone contemplating this shift, it's an episode full of practical tips that you won't want to miss. And if you're looking to turn your creative inspiration into action, don't forget to listen right to the end of the episode and catch up with my Creative Adventures. This is where I share the challenges I encounter and how acting on the nuggets of wisdom I've learned from my guests and applying those learnings is helping me to move forward in my own creative projects. This time I'll be tackling the issue of impatience in bringing your creative vision to life. If this is your challenge, I'll share the perfect advice for you later from graphic designer turned artist Mike Hall. Before we get to that, do remember to head to my website nikkivallance.com and sign up to stay in the loop with all my latest updates, blogs and guides to help you with your creative challenges. First though, it's time for some creative news in the Edge.

There's been a lot happening across the UK creative industries lately, some promising shifts and some familiar frustrations. Caroline Norbury, the founding chief executive of Creative uk, has announced she'll be stepping down by March next year. She's been a real champion for freelancers and her recent paper Delivering for Freelancers calls on the government to appoint a paid independent freelance champion to represent the self employed majority. It's a bold ask and one that feels long overdue. Meanwhile, Iain Murray mp has been reappointed as Minister of State for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism after the September Cabinet reshuffle. There's hope that this continuity will push forward some of the sector plans already in motion, but many creatives are still waiting to see how these policies will actually support freelancers, illustrators and small studios on the ground. And looking ahead, the independent public body responsible for research and innovation, the UKRI, has confirmed that the next wave of Creative Industries clusters will launch in January next year. Backed by £100 million worth of funding, these clusters are designed to spark collaboration between universities and creative businesses, with a focus on regional growth and innovation. I've mentioned earlier funding phases in previous episodes and this is another big investment. But once again, the question is how accessible it'll be for independent creatives. And in the illustration world, Recent trend reports from Creative Boom and Scream Digital show a rise in eco conscious and retro futurist styles. There's also a growing chatter about AI assisted workflows which are reshaping how some artists work, but not without raising questions about authorship and creative integrity. But have you ever thought about turning a creative passion or hobby into paid work? And if you have, what would help you feel confident enough to take that first step? And if you could ask someone experienced in creative freelancing just one question about getting started, what would it be? Do share your thoughts or any questions via my website contact page or on Instagram @nikki _vallance. I'd love to hear from you And listen next to my conversation with a talented digital artist, which feels especially timely, we talked about the importance of mentoring the up and coming illustrators, not just creatively, but practically. Her focus on business skills, boundaries and keeping a sense of creative freedom within commissioned work is exactly the kind of grounded wisdom that cuts through the noise. She's proof that real change starts with empowered individuals. Meet today's guest, Lisa Maltby. Hello, Lisa.

Hi, Nikki. Thanks for having me on.

It's great to have you here. I want to first start by asking you to introduce yourself to everybody and tell them about who you are and what you do.

Yeah, so I'm Lisa Maltby. I am an illustrator and designer. I've worked independently for the last 10 years, but I've been in the creative industry for about well over 20 years and I predominantly work on illustrative design. So it's design that combines illustration as well as layout work. So I work on a lot of book covers, I work on packaging designs, branding assets. So I have a focus on brands, fine food brands and heritage brands. So there's always an element of retaining the essence of a brand within my work and taking that further to attract various audiences. That's a little bit about me. I also, write a lot about the creative industry. Quite, quite passionate about creating space for underrepresented people to access resources and to get a foot in the door. So I write a blog and I do a lot of talks and mentoring and lecturing. So a wide variety of things, Yes.

A very wide variety. Lots of things to dig into there. That's brilliant. Okay, so I'd like to start, as I often do with all of my guests, to ask you what the word creativity means to you.

So definitely curiosity is the main word that comes to mind when I think of being creative. I think it's just the freedom to explore ideas and using those ideas to engage with others.

You've been using your creativity for a long time in a profession. I think lots of people don't. Lots of people have it as a side hustle or a hobby or just a way of expressing themselves, but yours is within your job and you mentioned lots of different aspects of how you use it in your role. Can you talk to me a about the different types of medium and or output that you have and what they do for you? Because I think that's really interesting to know. But you're producing something for other people and you're being paid for that. But obviously you're going through a process to be able to give them that product. So, yeah, talk me through the different aspects of your work and, and how they differ and what you enjoy about them.

Yeah, it's quite interesting actually, because I have a very different process when I work on something that's very personal to me. So I work on a lot of personal projects, but when I'm working for other people, that very much changes my process because obviously there's an element of feedback and I obviously have to make things very clear at a very rough stage, how something is going to look at the end through rough visuals and color swatches and all the rest of it. Whereas when I'm working for myself, I just go straight in there and explore with loads of different stuff. And so I've tried to rethink that a little bit actually, to try and think how I can make my processes work better more consistently. Because actually sometimes there is something in that playfulness that's really important in the final work. So often I'll have a experimental kind of session and come up with things that then I will work out a process for, that I will then put into my work. But there's a danger of it becoming too much the same because you're relying on what works, because obviously you want to. To provide something that people, they know what they're - You don't want to surprise somebody with something completely different that they've not commissioned. So I'm often really reining myself in because I can often go on tangents with my work and I have to tell myself off quite a lot. And speaking of which, I've completely forgotten what you're saying.

That's absolutely fine. I mean, I love it. I love the tangents. That's, for me, what it's all about. And that's being curiosity led, obviously. So I think what I was asking was you mentioned you do books, you do brand redesign or design and they're all on different scales as well. So yeah, the different mediums talk to me about them and which ones, which aspects of each of them that you enjoy.

Yeah. So I mean, I love, I love hand painting things, I love doing bigger work, but it's quite rare that I do that. I've done quite a lot of kind of community charity projects where they've been bigger commissions that are part of a collective of commissions that are displayed around the city. So those are great, but they're kind of once in a blue moon commissions really. Most of my work is digital for things like book covers. So I work on an iPad in Photoshop or in Procreate or Illustrator. So I work in a number of different programs depending on what output is needed and then for things, obviously when I'm doing typesetting and I'm doing packaging design, I've got to create repeat patterns. There's a lot of editing in Illustrator. So I work in a lot of different ways. I sometimes work in collage as well. And I think it always depends on what the brief is. So often that will dictate what I'm doing and how I'm creating that Sometimes it's very much about practicality, how easy is this going to be to edit? And sometimes it's about what is it saying. So, for example, I once did a personal project on some of the put downs I'd received, some of the criticism that I'd received and I did it as typographic project and I found that really fun because I was using different mediums to express what that saying was. So one of them was, this is just your hobby. And so I sewed it so it kind of reflected what that phrase was saying. That's obviously very much a personal Led project where I have that freedom to explore those different areas of using different materials.

So it sounds like there's some things you really enjoy doing but perhaps don't get as much chance to do them. And then there's the bread and butter, which is your profession and how you earn your money. You've talked about trying to redesign processes or maybe maybe make them more consistent, but how do you balance those two? Because they're different ways of expressing yourself creatively. How do you balance them?

I don't know if you can. I think, like I say, I do have very specific times for experimentation and doing my own work. That always feeds in to the main work. Some commissions, they are quite interesting. There's a lot of really creative briefs that I get where there is a lot of creative freedom. So I'm not always tied to, a very regimented way of working. It really is a case of understanding the brief and understanding each client and understanding what their expectations are and making sure that's clear, because that's the main thing when you're working with people. Obviously, the clarity is really, really important. So I think so long as there is clarity and there's understanding at the start, you have an idea of what those boundaries are so that you can explore within those boundaries. And sometimes that's actually really helpful because it does stop you going completely wild because you have these limitations. And interestingly, the flip side of that is in my personal work, I often will implement boundaries on myself on purpose because I know that if I'm just left to my own, I would use every single color and every single material, and it would just be a mess. So I think it's just a balance of it's working out what's right. And I think it's the initial discussion and brief stage is really, really key to work out where someone wants you to go. Because sometimes people want to be really safe and they don't want to stray too far from certain elements of their brand. And other people will really want you to go wild and do whatever you want to do. And it's often very, very free and creative. So it depends. Really.

Yeah. So some people might imagine that because you're doing it as a job, you don't have creative freedom. But as you say, it depends on what's needed in the situation you're in. And I guess having done it for a long time, the aim, when you get to the end of a project is that somebody will see what they were imagining. Even if they didn't know what that looked like, it gives them that feeling that, yes, this is what we wanted. This is on brief but equally, there's part of you in there that is distinctively you. So people would be able to ultimately recognize if they knew enough about you. Ah, that's one of your pieces or one of your illustrations.

Really lovely sometimes because you think that you've made it really clear what you're. You're gonna do. And obviously you do. You fulfill the brief, but you'll send it. And there's an element of surprise. This is great. Like, oh, wow. You know, and it's a really lovely feeling that even though there is an expectation there, there is this extra level of when a creative finalizes something, there is an element of that surprise and that uniqueness to the work, which is great.

Yeah, I guess it's the bit that they won't see until you've finished it is your interpretation of that brief. So you've understood what they want and you are going to give them what they want. But within your own capabilities and within your skills, you're able to interpret that and give them back something that is unique. I want to go right back to the beginning and talk about when you first identified, or maybe even you were too young to know, but other people told you that you loved doing creative things.

Yeah, I mean, I've never not been that person. So I used to get told off by my nana because I would take my sketchbook and I'd have it at the dinner table. And she thought this was very rude. Cause I'd just constantly be drawing all the time. So I can't remember not doing that. I've always had a sketchbook. It's almost been my main way of communicating from being really, really young. It was, and it still is a massive part of my expression. So, yeah, I can't remember a time when I didn't do that. It was always from being, , as soon as I could work out that I had to work one day, that was it. I was definitely going to do something creative. There was never any question that I was going to do anything else.

Okay, so that in some ways is helpful because there was a clear direction for you. But turning that into a profession is not necessarily that straightforward. So talk to me about that journey. Because obviously we live in a society which doesn't necessarily always value that talent or those skills or that even that direction. So. Yeah. How did you get where you are now?

Yeah, a very long process, I think, but in very small steps. So I guess it may be similar with writing that there's no clear path. You could go down a number of different routes and end up in the same situation. I did study illustration, I went to university, but there are lots of illustrators that don't do that and end up very successful. So there's no defined route, which also makes it really difficult because you don't know where you should be investing your time and your money to be able to get where you want to go. And I think it's only later in life that I've realized that it's mainly about connections and, who you meet and getting your work in front of the right people, obviously. So yeah, I, I studied it and I tried to work for myself when I graduated and I failed miserably. I just couldn't get my work in front of the right people. I sent it to so many people, but I just, I didn't get any commissions. And so I ended up thinking about my work really practically and I did extra evening courses to try and build my design skills. And then I started working at printers and just learned the basics of print and just gradually, learnt more software, learnt more graphic design, and worked my way up in the design industry really. But I'd always been doing my own creative work on the side just for myself. And I think it was when Instagram launched, I just started to post my work and it just got a bit of traction. And so it's just been a really gradual process, really, of people becoming aware of my work and me making connections. And I think when you're much later down the line, you realize that you do know more than you think and it's the confidence. I think there was a life situation that pushed me to go freelance and I think I needed that because without that, I think I may have just been playing it safe, staying with something that I enjoyed, but it just wasn't what I wanted to do.

So, gosh. It's quite unusual, I think, for people to almost be a bit stubborn about, okay, well, look, that didn't work, but I'm still gonna study this thing and I'm gonna do other things and I'm gonna make it work. Almost like bloody minded.

Absolutely. That is me.

Maybe you need that.

Because it can be very brutal. People are very, very critical and there are a lot of egos.

Oh, gosh, yes.

And as well, when you're wanting to get the better pay jobs, there is still, unfortunately, a lot of sexism and just, it is about having the right circles.

And I guess I'm curious because I'm sure a lot of people are thinking about maybe switching into their creativity and using it maybe for either a side hustle or to go full into it. There will be uncertainty about that. The way to do that and income and living and all the things we need to survive.

Yeah,

Unfortunately we can't just live on a desert island and just play. You have to have some structure. So is there any advice you would give people about how to make their living out of something that they enjoy without it taking over that enjoyment?

Yeah, I think for me, it's been about really identifying an audience and making sure that when I am speaking about my work and putting my work out there, that it is speaking to that audience. And that's something that's taken quite a long time, to be honest. And I was making an income before that point. But that's just something that's really helped it to take off more because you're essentially identifying problems and coming up with solutions for people. And they are visual solutions, but nonetheless, you are selling something. You're selling either a service or a product, and that needs to be relevant for people. And so I try to think more in terms of problem solving. Who might need my work, where might it fit? And instead of just putting my work out there or just sending it to people, I'm quite specific in how I present that I could help, , it might be, oh, I've noticed you got a few businesses growing. Do you need some help with your branding or packaging and speak about past projects that I've worked on and how that's helped other businesses to get more engagement and, , increase their sales. So you're thinking a little bit more commercially about how your work solves problems.

Yeah,

and that's really challenging when it is something that's. So I'm just thinking in terms of writing, it's, knowing your audience might be understanding a particular type of person that you're writing for and really making sure that all of your writing is directed at this group of people that has this real theme, or whether it's an age or whether it's a gender or, it could be so many different things. And I think that's what's really important is a lot of authors obviously have a niche, don't they, in terms of, it might be horror, whatever it is. And I think it's the same for all industries where you're trying to channel what you're doing so that you're not just A creative jack of all trades. And your voice gets lost because you're trying to please too many people. And I think I've definitely done that in the past and it just weakens what your work is about and who it's attracting. But it is very, very difficult. I mean there's so many projects I want to do and I feel limited because I think, oh, that's not, that's not to my audience though. But it could be a really important expressive piece of work. It's a challenge. Yeah. So I don't know if you can identify that as a writer.

I totally identify with that. I mean it's only literally in the last probably six months that I've really worked out who my audience are. But also I've worked out who I am.

Yeah.

And I think that's kind of where it starts.

Yeah.

And I was so resistant to mastery, focusing on one thing and I basically decided that I would be able to find the essence of who I am creatively by almost taking a step even further back and saying, what is it that connects these things that you love doing? And I guess I've got two sides to me too, in that I have the very commercial eye for what I think I can do with my skills that will earn me money. But I'm also in a fortunate position that at the moment I don't have to worry about which creative route is going to be the one that ends up being my thing.

Yeah.

I do know that. It's very hard to make money as a novelist.

Yeah.

Even for the really well known best selling authors, the people who would identify as full time authors. The average salary in the UK is £7,000. Nobody can live on that. So you have to look at supplemental ways of earning money. But I think in a way because of that, what's really lovely is it means that I can really be playful and curious about who I'm writing for, what I'm writing about. My first book came out 2019, so just before the pandemic and it's taken me all this time since then to work out what the audience is for that book. I mean, I didn't even know at the time when it came out. Now I've worked out the next one I'm writing and then the ones I've got ideas for after. There is a theme I've almost had to project forward and look at those different types of books and go, okay, what's the common thread between them and through that, I've worked out what I'm trying to say and who I'm trying to reach and the kind of work I want to do. So it's actually made much easier then. But I didn't want to limit myself just to writing because I have so many different outlets that I want to play with. And this is why people who know me will know I'm having creative adventures. So I'm letting that curiosity take me wherever it takes me and seeing what happens whilst still keeping an eye on how do I make a living. Yes, it's the balance, but it's literally taken me all of this time since then to work out, okay, well, who are my audience and who am I writing for? And actually, who am I? Because I can't tell them what I want to say if I don't know who I am.

Exactly.

It's taken a lot of work. I did interview somebody on I think it was my second season, who is an expert in advertising, and he worked for Saatchi and Saatchi, and he did all sorts of different things, but he basically talked to me about what he calls optimal distinctiveness. To stand out, you have to be different, but you can't be so different that people go, ooh, that's a bit weird.

Yeah.

It's trying to get that kind of essence of you and the uniqueness, but also make it appealing and relevant and not too off the wall. I guess if you've gone down a fine art route, I mean, there still has to be an audience for that but maybe it's slightly different in that they are literally seeking the essence of who they are and trying to get that out into the world in some form or other. And then it happens to be, if it's popular, great, but it's almost not the reason they're doing it. It's different, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. And that's where it's a challenge, because even as an illustrator, people will say, oh, you're selling your soul commercially, being an illustrator. You know, it's kind of. There's this hierarchy of what's allowed to be creative, but actually, it takes a lot of privilege to be able to do whatever you want. If you're somebody that needs to think about paying your bills, then you have to think commercially about your work. So it's a challenging one. But I do enjoy going to exhibitions, and it is very much about interpreting an idea. I quite like the way that art really... Well, I love the way that art really challenges particular topics and makes you think differently about things. So I think it's really important and I think that's why it's really frustrating that it gets squashed so much in education. This creative thinking is actually really important, not just in the creative industry, but in all industries that we're thinking critically about things, different ideas and different avenues, and we're learning to communicate in ways that aren't the obvious and that we're challenging different thoughts. So I think, yeah, I do get very inspired by fine art and looking at different creatives and how they output their ideas is really key.

Yeah,I totally agree with you. When I first started out down this route of adventuring, one of the things I was looking at was potentially really focusing on education and trying to champion more access to it as you do. But I realized my voice was better suited to pulling the people together who do that already. There doesn't need to be another voice saying that there is a problem. There are plenty of them, but the message is still not getting through properly. And I think part of the problem with that, again, I've talked about this with some of the guests is that definition of creativity. There's no one answer to that question, which I love, because it's so varied depending on people's experiences and their views and their philosophies. But one thing is for sure that it isn't just art. It isn't just painting, it isn't just making. It isn't just craft, as you say, it's critical thinking, it's creative thinking. And we absolutely need people to have exposure to that as they're growing up, because they're going to need that. The more automated things become, and supposedly the easier our lives are because of that automation.

Yeah.

What are we're left with is our humanness, and that is being able to sort out problems, being able to think around things, connecting things together that aren't obvious, is absolutely something that we need to be able to do. There's so much evidence out there that says if you give people the opportunity to play and to be curious, that they will be able to solve all their problems or all the problems in front of them quicker, more, more enjoyably. You know, there's so much evidence to it. And I just, I do despair of the narrowness of curricula. I was so lucky that I was in education at a time when the teachers were allowed to do their own planning of how they were going to teach something, what they would teach and use all of their own skills to be able to bring that subject to life. And I just think, gosh, it must. be such a hard job for them to do that now.

You mentioned helping people to access the industry, so talk to me a little bit about your work there in terms of championing people who perhaps wouldn't get that access and don't have that privilege.

Yeah, I think it stems from my own background in terms of my family were very anxious about me going into a creative career, as probably most families might be. But it was definitely a financial concern, and we grew up with quite a few financial concerns, so I'd grown up with that. And it does define your thinking, and it does challenge you in terms of being able to take risks. It feels harder even when you are in a position where you're okay. It's still a really a difficult mindset. There's a huge level of anxiety for families, even having that ability to have that creative expression because it's just so uncertain. There's nothing to fall back on. So, yes, I've always written a blog from when I first started freelancing, or even before I started freelancing, I started writing a blog about the creative industry struggles that I'd had, things that I'd learned just as a way to be transparent about my journey, because I couldn't find this information anywhere. When I was younger, I didn't know anybody in the creative industry apart from teachers. So I just felt like there was just this closed world to me. So when I started out, I just thought, I want to be really transparent in how I'm getting work and some of the challenges. I'm an honest person, but I was, like, ridiculously honest. I've had to delete some of the. blogs because I was like, this is cringe.

I'm the same.

I know. Well, it's true. But yeah, so I've had to, go back and edit some of them. So I was like, right, I'm just gonna say it like it is. And of course, then, you don't want to end up saying too much. But yeah, and then a couple years ago, I did a year's mentoring for Arts Emergency, which is an organization charity that helps give access to people who have barriers to the creative industry. So I mentored someone for a year through that, which is incredible, rewarding experience. And then I do some voluntary Mentoring for people. And then I do paid mentoring as well. And I speak at colleges and universities. And a lot of the time I'm speaking on the practical side of creativity. So I'm not just showing my work and saying, look how great this is. I'm talking about how to manage yourself as a creative and how to promote your work. And because I think those tools are just not easily available and they're not taught in schools and they're not taught in colleges often. And like I saying at the start, it is about your connections a lot of the time. But if you're not born into those connections, you've got to work harder to make sure that you're accessing those connections. And sometimes it's even the way that you're speaking about yourself, just language, your body language, everything, it really does make a difference. And it's something I've really struggled with and I've done so much. I love a psychology podcast.

Yeah

Just how to talk about yourself and how to hold yourself and all of that. It's quite interesting. But I think you can end up going way too far, and you've got to be authentic to who you are. But I do think there are so many barriers that we just don't think about. What I'm saying is that you take for given that a lot of people may not struggle with these very particular areas of being able to talk about yourself or being able to present your work in a way that is interesting and relevant. That takes a lot of work. Yeah. So just thinking practically about. About those things, essentially.

I think in education, you're absolutely right. These things we're talking about, people might think, oh, this is a podcast about creative people or people who want to do a job which is a creative one. But it's it's really bigger than that. It's about giving people the opportunity to be themselves, but to do it in a way where they're clear about what that means.

So maybe when you were choosing your A levels or choosing your degree, there would have been that financial pressure, but there would have also been some kind of societal pressure which says, is that really a proper job? Are you being sensible? And I would like to encourage people, whatever age they are, if there's something that they think they'd like to do, we've got to not put things off until tomorrow because you never know what's going to happen or never know what's coming around the corner. And I think the other thing you said earlier, which I really like, is you don't know how you're going to get there. Having an ultimate goal is great, hold onto that. But actually don't look up too much. Don't keep looking at the mountain and going, oh my God, how am I going to get there? Look at what you can do today. Take the steps one at a time and, and explore and just go, oh well, I went down a bit of a dead end there. Oh, well, never mind. I'll just reverse my steps and go somewhere else and do something different. This is why you've been successful it's that dogged determination that no matter what society said or the financial pressures, you were going to find a way to make it work when you could have probably gone, well, this is just too hard. I'll just go and teach and just do that or whatever. And I'm not saying that people who go and teach, are people who've given up, because often that is their calling. They feel that that's the thing they're good at.

Yeah.

But these things about self confidence and running yourself as an individual and your own personal brand, whatever you're doing, whether you're in finance or in computing or game design or whatever it is, we all need these skills and they're not being taught. It just seems a bit crazy to me. But anyway, we're not going to be able to change the education system.

I don't think so.

Mentoring, I mentor as well it's difficult to explain to people what it does for the person and what it does for you. So I'd be curious to know how you find it on the other end of giving that support to someone.

Yeah, it varies really. A lot of the time I'm doing one off portfolio reviews rather than long term, so it's quite different in the way that that works. But I often will come off a call feeling on a high, really, because I, I feel excited that somebody's able to change something for the better and feels inspired to. You know, when you finish a call and they'll say, I'm inspired, I'm going to do, going to go off and do something and you're like, yes. So it's very rewarding to feel that you've imparted something and encouraged something in someone and brought that out of someone is really, really great. But obviously each individual has very different challenges and there's, there's so much crossover as well. And I think that's where it's difficult. And I don't know if you have this experience of. Because I'm not obviously not a counselor or. And then there's the crossover between coaching and mentoring. And so It's having very clear boundaries about what you're able to help with. But there is. With creative people, it's in everything. You know, it transcends everything. People who are wanting to be an illustrator, by the end of mentoring, they've decided they're actually going to be a novelist or just, something else creative or they've always got a lot of projects on the go, and that does affect every area of your life. So I do find that side of things. Yeah. interesting to discuss and look into. But those boundaries of knowing what service you're providing.

Yeah, there's definitely crossover, but also they're different things. There's skills, there's talking therapies, plus the coaching. I was a coach first before I did my mentoring, and I'm a blend of the two. I don't think you can switch things off once you've learned how to do something, but I think you just have to explain to someone the purpose of being here is to do this. But I'm also this, this, and this. So this might come out. And I try within the conversations, I try and make it clear which bits are me giving advice? Which is more the mentoring side and which bits are me helping to pull out from them what's inside them? Yeah, more the coaching side. But it's very rewarding for me. I think it's because it's not about me. That's what I like about it. I get inspired from my mentees. They've had some brilliant ideas about how to solve problems, and I'm having that.

And it's great when they're actually like, the person that I mentored on this arts emergency, she was just so good. Like, she was. She was way better than me at certain aspects of illustration. It's so inspiring. It takes the lid off of this pressure of you should be here at this stage and here at this stage that actually you can learn from everyone, no matter what stage they're at, is really great.

Yeah. Did you ever doubt it? I mean, I know you said that you'd always been doing it and brought sketch pad to the table, but did. You have a plan B or did. You just go, no, this is It, I'm doing it.

I doubt all the time. I doubt today whether I'll be around tomorrow. It's like, I think that's what's kept me going is like, and then I'm always on my toes thinking, what's my next plan? And so I'll always choose the creative plan. But I do have multiple backups and it can be an anxiety. So you have to really challenge your thinking on it. And because you, you're a natural problem solver because you spotted patterns and that's how you're good at what you do in your work. But you also can go on a tangent on a negative way as well. So you do have to really guard your vision where you want to go. But yeah, I think particularly like I was saying, because my family had so many anxieties as well. They were very encouraging, by the way. It wasn't that they were saying I shouldn't do this, but there was just a natural anxiety around it. There was always out of necessity really, look, I've got this backup. If this doesn't work out, I'll do this other thing. So, yeah, I'm always thinking very practically about where my money's coming from. And there have been really difficult times where I have had to think a little bit differently about how, how I'm getting the income in. So I've not had a job throughout the past 10 years, but I'm not somebody that's averse to those things. And I'm very open in terms of anything can happen at any point. Creative careers are always changing and pivoting. And I think sometimes you can be so headstrong that you end up feeling like a failure if something hasn't worked out exactly as you want it. And I speak to a lot of students who feel like people like me have made it because I'm full time freelance. And I think it's such a toxic view because actually there's a flip side of that where I'm 100 reliant on my work. It's really stressful sometimes actually if you've got a job, like you were saying about having that freedom with your writing, you can sometimes put more in to your work when you've not got those financial pressures, like there's not a right or wrong way. But I think for me, I am, I have a vision and I'm creative, so I can't not be that. So I'm always going to gravitate to a creative option. But I do think very practically about where the money's coming from and how i'm going to look after my family.

Before we finish, I just wanted to ask you about, you mentioned ups and downs there, but I'm curious about how that pressure, once you start being successful at something. Say, for example, you had a run on packaging design, and that was the thing that was earning you the most money. That tension between, okay, I'm good at this, and I'm doing it, but actually, it's too limited. That creative person inside will always be looking for something different and new and exciting. Magpie. So talk to me a little bit about that person inside and how you manage it.

Oh, yeah. It's a real challenge. Like I say, I've had so many different Instagram profiles. I'm setting up secret ones. I'm just gonna be a secret artist and create a whole different way of working. No one's gonna know. But, yeah, it's challenging. And now sometimes I'll, like I said before, sometimes catch myself going on a tangent within a project. No, I don't know how you fully, fully manage that, other than having defined processes for very specific tasks and then having this experimental side of you that can explore. But I think the great thing about that is that you have to be able to pivot to be successful, I think. And so I think that's something that's also helped me. So even though it can be a barrier, it does help me to think a little bit more broadly about how I can solve problems for people. So. And because I've worked in branding as well, obviously that means being very versatile. You are essentially appealing to lots of different audiences, whereas my illustration work is quite stylized for a very particular audience. With branding, you're helping a variety of clients, they've got their audience, so you're. You're not just helping them. It's really not about them. It's about their audience. You're tailoring that work. And in some ways, this is where my strengths lie. I'm like a chameleon, so I can adapt, and I can see how the visuals will appeal to different audiences. I do have a separate profile for my branding work to my illustration work for that reason, so that it's very clear that in that context, I look at things very differently than my usual projects that I gain. So, yeah, so I'm often kind of working on a lot of different things. And that kind of feeds that creative wondering. Well, actually, these projects give me that freedom to think of solutions. There's still a definite process and there's still very much limitations, but there's a lot more freedom in terms of the outputs are very much tailored to what those different audiences are.

Yeah, you nurture yourself by the variety. So even if you're not allowed to, allowing yourself to just go off and do wacky stuff because you can't afford to do that because these clients are paying for your work, you at least have different types of outputs that give you that sense of, okay, I'm not just doing one thing. My work is varied and bits of me are coming out in different ways. So, yeah, there is a connection, isn't there? But if you look at the granular level, people would say, well, that's completely different to that. But the connection is that actually you're applying yourself to those different avenues through the end product.

Definitely. Do you find that with your coaching and mentoring that you are almost channeling creativity through different people? It's like the variety of different people and their creative side?

Yeah I guess. But I it's interesting. I haven't really thought about it that way. I probably am, but what I like about when I'm mentoring is, in a way, I want to spark something, but I want to have as little footprint on it as possible. I really want them to discover themselves, which is probably the coach in me coming out. But then sometimes people are really struggling because, I'm ahead of them. I'm no better than them. I've just been doing it for longer in terms of the writing. And so sometimes I can see them really struggling. And I say, do you want me just to tell you what I did? And they go, oh, yeah. The relief is yeah, please. Because it just cuts out all of the angst and the decision making and the whatever. But I do try to let people have the autonomy, and I think there's value in that because they're then discovering that they can do it themselves. Because one of the things I think. is different from some other types of support you could give people is that I'm always looking to try and make myself redundant. I don't want them to be reliant on me.

Absolutely.

I want them to stand on their own two feet and go forwards. So that's what I'm always trying to do. But I guess I probably do have a creative outlet through them. But I try really hard not to impose myself.

Yeah, I was just thinking, because I meet a lot of creative people, I get to quite a lot of different creative events and sometimes just meeting different creative people is enough to satisfy this urge to do something different. Actually looking at what they're doing and how they're doing things differently. Sometimes that's enough of an interest to stop me going on so many times because I'm really into what they're doing and it's quite nice to speak to other people about what they're doing.

So I'm going to be really cheeky now and say, if you didn't have to earn money, how would you be using your creativity?

Oh, man, I would just be creating just batshit crazy paintings and videos and I think I'd just go mad. I think I wouldn't care about making the money. So I think it would just be quite quirky, interesting ideas from everyday life that I just create a project on. So almost fine art, but on Red Bull or something, like just. Probably just a bit weird.

A bit too edgy.

No, not edgy, just stupid. I probably just create silly things for the sake of it. Me and my family got quite a silly sense of humor, so we're always doing practical jokes on each other and stuff. So. Yeah, I just love that sense of fun that creativity brings. Yeah, that's really great. And that's something that I do feel is. Is limited when you're a Professional illustrator.

Yeah.

As long as you've got an outlet for it, then it's not a problem. You've got to have a little bit of steam now and again.

Yeah, yeah, definitely, Absolutely. Yeah.

Just before we close, I want to give you the chance to tell people how to find you. Depending on what they might be looking for, where you spend your time. If they wanted to connect with you, what would they need to do?

Yeah, so my illustration work is on Instagram under Lisa Maltby Studio. My website is LisaMaltby.com and my branding website is Maltby Design Co. Yeah, those are my main social profiles. I do have a newsletter you can sign up from my website and my blog that I was speaking about is on my LisaMaltby.com website under Resources. So I've got a lot of articles on there, particularly for the illustration industry, but there is some crossover with other industries, particularly on things like copyright as well with the increasing AI and things like that and some of the things that are coming up a lot recently. But yeah, so hopefully there's some helpful resources on there as well.

Brilliant. Well, I'm really glad we managed to get a date in the diary that worked for us both and want to thank you so much for everything. I'll make sure all those links are in the show notes as well. And yeah, good luck with the new projects that you've got on.

Thank you. Thanks very much for having me on. Bye

I'm always searching for guests who followed their own creative path, and I found Lisa through researching her work with Art Emergency, championing equal opportunities for young creatives. Then I read a blog she'd written about when she founded her own design studio in a bid to find more creative freedom through the opportunities it gave her to work across multiple disciplines. I suspected she would have some interesting stories to tell and invited her on the show. And after that conversation, I'm so glad I did. I hope you found her as inspirational as I did. You can follow her design work for the likes of Penguin Random House and Waitrose on her studio website or her other creative projects on Instagram. Links, as ever, are in the show notes. Now it's Creative Adventures time I promised to share some advice from the abstract artist Mike hall on being patient. So by now, if you've been following since the beginning of this season, you'll be familiar with my work on a new publication on substack called the Bold Types, where I'll be sharing my deeper exploration of creativity and creative living. Everything for the Bold Types is coming together, and as is often the way. The beginning of a project is really exciting. The pull to get things done is magnetic and get stronger the closer you get to seeing your idea, the thing that first existed only in your head for months, almost becoming a reality. But the publication is only one way for me to express my creativity, and I've had this season of the podcast work on my novel and other responsibilities and life transitions going on at the same time. Recently, at times, it has felt a bit like things were grinding to a halt with this new project. I was beginning to wonder if I'd bitten off more than I could chew. Then one day, when I was deep in preparation for this and the other episodes of the season and not seeing any way of sticking to my intended launch date for the Bold Types and getting very impatient, I remembered Mike Hall's advice. "It's everything a bit at a time. It's important to put the essentials in place first" - when you're starting out to work out what those essentials actually were. By the way, if you're considering joining Substack as a place to express your creativity, I would highly recommend Claire Venus, follow her Sparkle on Substack channel and you can't go wrong. Anyway, she gave me advice on how to get started and agreed with Mike that there was no need to have everything figured out from the beginning. She even reminded me that there is joy to be found in following the process and seeing how things go. So I just focused on slowing down and taking small steps forward to build the foundations. There's a few more pieces of jigsaw to put in place. I'm almost there and hope to a soft launch with my first post by early November. And a quick reminder if a podcast is a creative adventure you'd like to begin, check out the links for Alitu, my podcast recording and editing software, and captivate my podcast hosting software. I really couldn't do it without these great, easy to use tools. Have you found it hard to stop yourself from trying to run with a creative project before you can walk? Or maybe you've settled into an easy rhythm, giving yourself permission to go as fast or as slow as your intuition tells you to? I definitely know how easy it is to get impatient and rush ahead. Please let me know if this happens to you too through my website or on Instagram. The links are in the show notes. I'd love to hear all about the ups and downs of your creative adventures. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Creative Switch. If you enjoyed it, please leave a review over on podchaser.com and if you've got any questions, please let me know on Instagram @ nikki_vallance. And if you keep listening and join me next time, I'll be sharing all the details of how to get your eyes on The Bold Types. And I'll be sharing one of my favourite conversations with actor, voiceover artist and singer Juliet Crosby, who I met after her stunning performance in A Christmas Carol opposite John Simm at the Old Vic. Until then, keep creating and remember why. Survive and you can thrive.

Sam.