I've never met a person who didn't have room for growth.

And the most scary people are the people who refuse to get help.

The people who refuse to get prayer, the people who never apologize.

So I don't wanna be associated with that.

I don't want to ever prop up a person, a leader, anyone who is just, look

at how I do it and do it my way.

In a world that often feels fragmented and disconnected, how can

we navigate our digital and spiritual lives with authenticity and grace?

Welcome to Seat Go Create, where today's guest, Doug Burch, brings his unique

perspective as a writer, minister, and speaker committed to living by the

spirit and exploring the intersection of faith, community, and social media.

Doug author, a posting piece, why social media divides us

and what we can do about it.

I just finished reading half of that, really enjoyed it, and his other book,

the Community of God, A Theology of the Church from a Reluctant Pastor.

I love the thought of that.

I need to circle back and read that he has spent 24 years pastoring and

has been the voice behind a radio show and the Fairly Spiritual Show podcast.

His journey seems to be one of seeking harmony between his

spiritual calling and his daily life.

Doug, welcome to Seek Go Create.

Well, hey, thanks for having me on.

I've been looking forward to this

Yeah, I think this is gonna be interesting.

We were right before we hit record, we were kinda like

going, so what are we doing here?

What are we talking about?

And so think this is gonna be a nice, free flowing conversation, but let's do

something that, is not really pretending.

Doug.

Let's just say we just meet, and I'm doing this idle chitchat question where

I say, Doug, by the way, what do you do?

How do you respond when someone asks you at this season, stage

of your life, what you do?

I, if we just met, I'd probably try to change

the topic or the subject.

pastoring for 24 years.

There's some people that the moment you say you're a pastor, they, depending upon

their experience of the church, they just shut up and that's the last you get of it.

In fact, I was, on a fishing boat.

It was one of those where they take you out to fish for some, I don't know,

like you drop a line and you catch fish and it's doesn't seem fair to the fish.

But there was a guy next to me swearing the whole time,

just nonstop like creative.

Swear, just.

Brilliant swear.

And like a hour into our time, he goes, so what do you do And I'm like, and I didn't

wanna say it, I was just, I'm a pastor.

And then you could just see his eyes like roll back.

Like he was trying to think of all the conversations he had.

He just stops.

And he goes, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, Well, I was a pastor for 24 years.

I'm not that right now.

I'm in between that.

I'm trying to figure out what to do.

I write books.

I like to talk about hope.

Right now I'm writing, fiction, a creative novel.

I do a bunch of things and I'm not content with any of them.

So, uh, for me, that's kind of what I do.

Ministry reconciliation's a big issue for me that whatever I talk about

is how do we bring people together?

how do we, actually find a way, not in a simplistic way, but

how do we heal the divides?

How do we enter into, as the scripture talks about the ministry of

reconciliation, where the dividing walls of hostility are torn down and we can find

true community around important things.

Have, has that always been your, mantra, that

reconciliation or is that something you've evolved into over time?

I.

it's interesting, I think sometimes writers overcompensate in that

they write for an area they might struggle with, so they think, well, if I write

a book, maybe, it'll solve the problem.

I think pastors do that.

Counselors helpers do that.

I'm a middle child.

There was five kids in our family.

I'm the middle child, and even as a middle child, I wanted everyone to get along.

And so that concept, and it's not always been a positive thing where not liking

conflict, wanting everybody to get along, wanting to try to find unity.

I think that was in my DNA there's, or whether it was the

nurture or the nature, right.

Uh, so I've always pursued that and it might've come even

outta my own discomfort, not enjoying being in divided rooms.

It might not even have been a really, oh, the Lord has told me to do this.

It's more how do I get these jerks to stop being jerky to each other?

So now my family wasn't like that.

It was a good family, but you got five kids and seven people.

There's a certain level of chaos.

So I, from earliest on, and then looking back I realized, wow,

whatever I write about, I tend to keep going to these themes.

so I'm kind of discovering who I am as I write, as I preach and teach.

I is that as you moved into ministry?

Or let's do a little bit of background real quick here.

'cause you and I haven't really spent a lot of time around each other.

I wanna say this too.

I wanna go ahead and get this out so that people understand this.

I was drawn to you just from interacting or not really interacting, just

reading some of the things you did on, I guess we call it X now, the

platform formerly known as Twitter.

I feel like we need to say that and uh, you know, just the short burst, sort

of pithy sometimes a little bit, humor.

It's okay to say that humor.

Is it okay

yes.

Humor.

That's right.

sarcasm?

Is sarcasm okay?

Do you have a little bit ? Of that I

I, I've got a lot of sarcasm,

Okay.

Some people don't like to be called that, and I'm like going, I actually

embrace it probably more than I should because I'm not sure that it

always lines up with reconciliation, just as a, something there.

Sometimes sarcasm can cause issues there, at least it does for me.

Maybe not you, maybe you've mastered that, but I was drawn to that just

because that seems to be a place that you, you get a lot of information out.

Now.

And so I'm just setting that up to say that's what drew me to you.

And I could also tell that I think we had some, some differing viewpoints, but

we were moving in a similar direction, which I like the thought of that.

Okay.

So that, I think that's a, maybe a little bit of a foundation for our conversation,

but tell me a little bit about kind of, I don't wanna know the, not necessarily

the growing up years, but how does someone go into ministry or how did, what's

your story for going into ministry?

Well, uh, I was born in a log cabin, which,

no, I won't go back that far.

by the way, with sarcasm, this will help.

Some people are like, sarcasm just isn't right 'cause it's lying or something.

Sarcasm like any other, form of communication, it

depends on the motivation.

Some people use sarcasm as a way to tear people down in a humorous way, and I

think that's the kind of sarcasm we would say we don't like, where it's a passive

aggressive way to tell someone, say something mean, but oh, it's just a joke.

I'm just being sarcastic.

Most of my sarcasm is more, self-effacing and I'm talking

about what I've done wrong.

and if I'm gonna be sarcastic, it's probably going to be with people in

power who could probably take it.

Somebody who's kind of a know-it-all who's used to telling everybody things.

And I might say, boy, you certainly have an opinion there.

just something like that.

uh, as far.

hold on one second.

Lemme pause you.

But do you use it, because you triggered something in me, do you

also use it as a relatability thing?

You mentioned the self-effacing, which I realize that I do that at times too.

It's kinda it, a lot of it's directed at me.

And I do similar, like what you just mentioned, but do you perceive it as

being something that helps you, you think, relate to other people better?

Yeah, it's a part of who I am, it's not like I'm going to

be humorous now, it's just how I am.

But humor has a way of opening doors.

I've found, I've often defined some of the stuff I do as evangelistic, and not

that I, have everybody raise their hand to give their life to Christ, but I come in

and maybe say difficult things, but I say it in a way that people are open

to it, and so there is a part of that.

Sometimes people assume humor means you're not serious about what you're talking

about, but what I've found is if you take enough effort to get someone to laugh

at themselves, then when you come in and you say something like, you know, we

need to really look at how we're living.

They're more willing to receive that.

Because you've done that effort.

So that's a big thing for me, because we all do that.

We do it with the people we love, or at least people with sense of humor

Do this where you tease a spouse who might be getting a little annoyed and

it's a way to tell them, Hey, your attitude's kind of not the best right now.

So when we love people, sometimes we joke with them to

get them to laugh a little bit.

We do that with our kids, right?

You seem to be a little grumpy today.

and then when they acknowledge that, then it's a way to also

say, maybe we should turn our attitude in a different direction.

So humor, also humor for insecurities.

I know for me, struggling to fit in as a kid, humor gets you at the table, right?

So I could joke about things.

I was a Christian kid always.

I, since I was two, I gave my life to Christ.

I said yes to Jesus, and I never stopped saying yes.

So that's my testimony.

And there's no real backsliding testimonies either.

I've always loved Jesus.

Now, like any 2-year-old who grew up in an evangelical culture, I

gave my life to Christ over and over again, just in case it didn't stick.

the person would come into town and, okay, maybe, I'll raise my hand again for Jesus.

But, but being a Christian kid and going through, the public schools,

And I wasn't like the nerd kid.

I was actively involved in things in sports, but I

always felt like an outsider.

And so humor is a great way, right?

You can just I'm a Pentecostal in the sense of believe the Holy Spirit as the

Holy Spirit worked in, in the Bible.

Holy Spirit works today.

So people who are worried about Pentecostals, what's

the first joke I'll do?

I'll say something like, don't worry, I didn't bring my snakes.

I'm not gonna be handling snakes or something like that.

And then they pull back a little bit, but I'm still the Pentecostal, so I think I

use it that way as well to cut 'em off at the past what they're already thinking

about me to say it before they say it.

So then we know what the concerns are and maybe how to move forward.

Yeah.

the

I didn't talk at all about how I became a pastor, did I?

But you, I think

you set me off in

yeah, we're, I did, we're about to go back that direction, but I,

it, I didn't grow up around a church.

I.

I grew up in the deep south though, which would tell you a good bit about me.

And we popped in and out of the Baptist church every once in a while and,

and then later, Pentecostal is where I came back or came to or whatever.

I don't know, but I like the same thing you said.

I like the joking about some of the raising of the hands and the . I also

went to churches when we started going more that were multicultural, which

is fascinating as someone who's white, especially in the deep South, and

you're allowed or get to go to churches where there's color and people really

do worship differently, that, we can say, oh yeah, we're all the same.

No, we're not.

We're not, we're different.

when Effie takes off running around the church, you gotta get outta the

way or you're gonna get mowed down.

And so we laugh and joke about that, but, but, but alright, so now let's get to

We could, by the way, we could talk forever on humor

because to me, any joke like this is the problem with social media, it's

general and usually we're content driven versus relationship driven.

So if you have a relationship with someone, and let's say you're in that

multicultural church, you can make jokes about cultural differences,

racial differences, if you're friends, if not, and again, why

is this person telling this joke?

Well, they, they're a racist, you know, or we don't know.

And that's what the hard part is.

We sometimes don't even take the time to know that through social media

we're Uniting I immediately through just ideology or the content there.

But when you have a relationship with someone, you put it in that context.

and the, that's why, to me, humor can be really dangerous, right?

Because you're reading the room.

Like I preach all kinds of different churches and if the pastors a very

sincere person and doesn't have really a strong sense of humor, the

congregation is just like that pastor.

So I can tell a joke in that room and they just stare at me or I see it

like, I will do, okay, I'd do this.

I'd say, before I start preaching, I wanna tell you 10

things I hate about your pastor.

I.

Now what I'm going to do is make fun of myself that this is, nothing's

gonna be negative, but people without a sense of humor immediately.

what?

How can you and what I'll say, is your pastor's interesting?

He makes me look boring.

something like that makes, he's so kind and I'm not as kind.

But man, can you tell if you should stop using humor and those first

jokes, if you've got a guy who laughs at everything, you're like,

the congregation's gonna be a riot.

I can just joke and they'll have a blast.

anyway, humor

works that way.

Ministry for me is probably the opposite than you.

Like I grew up in a.

Church, I mean in Christian community.

And the home was more sacred than the church.

So to me, the most spiritual man I ever met is my father.

And my father's a public school teacher and he's really been my pastor.

So when I went to church, church was more like confirming or not

confirming what was going on at home.

And in fact, if I had gone to a church and the experience was

just terrible and they called that Christianity, I wouldn't believe them

because I know what Christianity is.

I found it in my home.

And so that's really impacted how I minister to people.

'cause I actually minister to a lot of people who've been hurt by the church.

And that's helped me learn something because for many of

those people, that is all of it.

That's the expression they found.

Christ, they grew in Christ.

They were deeply wounded by people.

and so it's so hard to detangle those things.

For me, it is easier to detangle my faith from the church.

And so I've also worked a lot on trying to reform the church.

I feel very unsuccessfully doing that, but that's been my heart,

how we talk, how we communicate.

And then as I've grown older and the Internet's helped me with this,

seeing more problems and hurts and seeing the extreme abuse that I was

not aware of, it's given me a much greater sensitivity to why some people

will never step in a church again.

and shouldn't because of the wounds that they face.

they need community at some level.

But I take seriously that if you've been that wounded by people who should love

you, that there's a reason you, when you, someone says, do you go to church?

you snarl at them and say, I would never step through those doors again.

I, I think there's, alright.

I like where this is going because I think this is going to be

helpful for me and I think this is helpful for the conversation.

One of the things that I have found, Doug, is that I.

Have had this very similar, I don't even know if mission is the right word, but at

times what we call the church, and I want to use that term, I wanna use it that way.

Instead of, a lot of people when you, when all of a sudden you mention the

word church, just like when you start making jokes about their pastor, they

get wide-eyed and they go, oh my gosh.

blasphemy, things like that.

And I wanna say this, when I'm making these comments, it's about buildings

and these places that we have written the word church on the outside of

it, they, they may be the church.

I don't know if they are or not, but I've been on kind of a mission

because really pisses me off what I see going on right now.

and it really ticks me off because I've seen time and time again.

You know, someone would say, oh, Tim, it sounds like you've been through

church, church May maybe I have.

I don't really, I'm not really wired to, I don't wanna say I'm not wired

to feel that if I've been through it, that doesn't sound right either, but

it, I was saved in a business setting.

I'll go ahead and get this out there so you understand it.

The people that have listened in know I went in and out of a church,

but that wasn't gonna take for me because I wasn't attracted to it.

They didn't speak my language.

I didn't like the mamby pamby pastor speaking from the front or anything.

I'm sure that wasn't you or anything, but, I didn't like any of that

I,

am pretty namby pamby, but.

yeah.

, and so I, I was saved in a business setting at one of these MLM functions

that many people call a cult.

And so that's where I was, where I met Jesus, and that, that was my paradigm.

I wanna ask big picture question, and then maybe we'll drill down even more.

Do we have the structure right?

is there something wrong with the way we're structuring what we call the church

in first world Americanized culture.

I would say yes, but that'll always be the case.

And, and

I, my first book, the Community of God, I talk about that we

have this concept of utopia.

and utopia literally means not a place, if you look at the word, it doesn't exist.

Utopia is not no such place.

I think that's what it means.

And we have these ideas, of what we want the church to be.

And I, again, I'm not trying to minimize churches that should be

shut down, closed and bulldozed over because of the harm they've done.

So I'm not just saying, Hey, you just gotta deal with

hurts and people are messy.

And I think I get what you're talking about.

There's some incredibly, not just in some churches, but in, I think

in even the whole denominational settings that are really toxic.

Some basic foundations, power dynamics that are just terrible.

I talk a lot about this in the community of God, which is interesting.

This is before a lot of the stuff has more come out and united and all the

documentaries we see, that are out there.

But, I, I think at some level I believe this to be true, we are

formed in community Christians.

the Bible doesn't Start with the individual first and

then go to the community.

It's always both.

In fact, if there was only one person on earth, you ever hear the evangelist

say that if there was only one person on Earth, Christ would've died for you.

I think if there was only one person on Earth, God would've created another

person because for us to understand God, God at some level is community.

And don't worry, I'm not some sort of wacko here.

I have Trinitarian uh, theology.

I was on the doctrine committee for a denomination I used to be in.

I was the lead reviser of their doctrine books.

So I'm doctrinally sound in this, at least in their consideration.

But God is community.

Three persons in one.

This mystery of the Trinity, one God.

Three persons.

So God is relationship, God is community.

And at some level, for us to understand the community of God, we need to

be in some sort of relationship.

It's different than it is with our concept of Father, son, and Holy Spirit.

But the Bible doesn't back away from that, that it's not good for us to be alone.

We're supposed to be in community dependent upon each other.

In fact, much of why Jesus ministered in community that's

how we're supposed to minister.

We'll say, well, he had disciples because he was making you know

Jesus', and he's gonna help them and then they're gonna do what he does.

That's not why Jesus had disciples.

Jesus had disciples because it would've been sin for him to minister alone.

No human is supposed to minister alone.

So that's the part where I challenge people who've been hurt

by the church regardless of the structural concept of the church.

We need to be in community.

Now.

That can be what I.

three people at your house, is to me at some level where you're together.

you're focusing on Jesus, focusing on the gospel, and maybe you

disagree with some of these things.

Well, whatever you believe theologically, you're coming together and you're focusing

in on that, and then people can feed into your life and you can feed into theirs.

Now, I tend to think the group needs to be big enough that you

can be annoyed by people and small enough that you can know people.

Because if you just structure stuff around, you know the people you like.

I don't know if you're really gonna get the heart of God with

concepts of grace and love.

And this is what I see with some of the megachurch people.

They've been hurt by megachurches.

So they take the friends that they got at the megachurch and then they hive

off and they have this safe, wonderful community where they can talk about

what's wrong with that megachurch.

that's a part of it.

But you gotta open that group to the annoying person, to the person

who has mental health issues, to the poor person who needs help, or

the rich person's a little arrogant.

And you gotta find a way to tell 'em it's not all about money.

So that's the kind of stuff I talk with as far as the structures of our church.

Every structure becomes corrupted with power in people, and I tend

to be very cynical in that sense.

I've had this idea that I was gonna change structures and, every time I've tried it,

it hasn't gone very well, but I think, I'm gonna stand before the Lord, like Shadrach

MHA and ab Bendigo and say, I'm not gonna bow down I, I think you'll rescue me.

But even if you don't, I'm not gonna bow down to those structures and systems.

So I've made choices even recently where it's impacted me greatly financially,

uh, in, in the point where barely making it financially, giving up all kinds

of opportunities because ultimately I'm gonna stand before the Lord.

This life's very short, and I don't want to ever trade my faith with God

so that I can work within some sort of system denominational structure.

Uh, whatever, whatever, structure defines us,

I agree with all of that.

I agree with everything because it bothers me that I.

we travel, Doug, we're we live in our motor coach.

We've been traveling now for over 10 years.

We pop in and out of, we popped in and out of churches for a while, and then the

more I popped in and out of churches, I got tired of the mindset in most churches.

I'll just say this, this is not all was, this is where God is.

This is where you need to be.

You need to be here 24 7.

We open up the doors.

By the way, would you like to be in charge of the parking lot ministry because you

seem like someone who's somewhat fit and you could get up early on Sunday mornings.

And I only slightly joke about that.

And yes, there was some sarcasm and cynicism in that statement,

but, and I just started thinking to myself, I don't think.

This is correct and so maybe, and maybe this is where you're at landing right now.

I'm just, we spend a lot, my wife and I spend a lot of personal time.

I, we are digging down into things that, that we may or may not have

dug into spiritually with, you know, attending some type of structure.

And I'm pulling for the structure.

I really do want the structure to work.

I just, I don't

Yeah.

Well, and here's the thing.

I think it, it really is about it.

Yeah.

I think it's about relationship.

For instance, I'll always be involved in a church community.

That's just a calling thing for me.

So the moment I stopped pastoring, I was, I took a couple weeks off

just 'cause I hadn't not gone to church for three weeks and 24 years.

Like, I pastored the same church for 24 years.

I was like, what does this feel like?

But then that was a spirit led thing.

if I were to put this in someone else that would me being an intermediary

and I don't believe it's my job to be someone's Holy Spirit.

So for me, I prayed and we had brought into a community where

now I go to this Lutheran church and it's not Pentecostal, but.

Relationally, we know we're called to minister with those people.

Because I talk about this in the book community of God, I don't

think you go to a church like, how does this meet my needs?

You go based on, how can I minister in this community and be of value?

So often you're called to places that don't have what you want.

people used to leave our church 'cause they'd say, oh, we love

you, pastor, but you know, you just don't have enough for our children.

our children, we were, we're concerned about their faith.

And I wanted to say to them, oh, I'm so glad you're leaving.

My kids have to stay here, so they're probably gonna go to hell.

But if you can escape, if you can, just that concept, and that's the

American concept, that I need certain things to be okay, which is not true.

you don't, and we all know that in relationships we've committed to, you

commit to there, there's boundaries in a marriage where there's reasons

to divorce and there's reasons that you should no longer be with someone.

But we all have this commitment thing that says the commitment is

bigger than the difficulties, right?

And then you learn to live within those difficulties.

In, in olden days, you had two churches in town and they had a

graveyard next door, and people would get a plot next door to the church.

No one would do that today.

'cause it would require a commitment, that no one wants to make.

Now, all kinds of problems with that.

And so I'm not saying people have to commit for life to a community, but

for me, that's the decision I've made.

I think this is one of the biggest problems with the church

and why we're seeing corruption.

this is just one of many I see the documentaries as well.

I have friends who've been hurt by the church.

I, most of the people online Christians I deal with no longer

go to church have been hurt.

But they'll say, but you're okay.

I don't like any of those other pastors, but I'll talk to you thing.

Um, I know like in the denominational setting, I was in.

No matter how you look at it, and this happens across the board, larger

churches go into positions of power.

pastors of larger churches get platformed more, and we use church

growth as an assessment for health.

And the idea is if it's growing, it's healthy or we do this.

If a church is growing.

Then if there are problems, we downplay those problems because we'll

say, clearly God has blessed this church so God wouldn't bless this

church and allow for those problems.

I saw that with Mark Driscoll in Seattle, and I'm not saying something

out of there's whole, Christianity Today did a whole podcast series on him.

I interviewed Mark.

Uh, I tried to be very gracious and kind with Mark throughout his

tenure in Seattle, even though he was very arrogant and is very arrogant.

But I would see in Mark, my issue for Mark is he had growth as a young

man, and I think he equated that growth where I must be blessed.

And so then he minimized all his faults.

Now that those faults could have been 1% of his personality or 10% of

his personality, it doesn't matter.

Once you justify and codify and sanctify faults, and I

call these satanic footholds.

then incredible evil can occur.

And if you look in most church corruptions, that's what happens.

Well, well, he's a good guy and he's a good preacher.

And look at all the good he's done.

And yeah, there was that accusation about, women or, yeah, he, sometimes

he has a temper, but you know, God's anointed sometimes, you know, all

the garbage that we use to justify that is a problem in my own life.

And it's a problem in a leader's life.

And so we put a leader in a position.

I think we even do this with our national leaders outside the church.

I think we're going through seasons like that where we're seeing that

people will justify depravity if they get what they want, or if

80% of it is good or 90% is good.

And we, that is, that happens in structures and then in structures

where you then can't remove the person or the consequences.

I'll even get at this.

With, with abuse in homes, sometimes people say, why

didn't they deal with abuse?

Like someone will talk about abuse.

had a friend who, when she was like 23, she talked about being abused

when she was, in fifth grade and people were like, well, why didn't

you just talk about it earlier?

Well, the moment she shared that.

The family just fell apart because the abuse was in the family.

Suddenly people knew about it and everything changed, and there

were parts of that family that she didn't want to fall apart.

And this is what happens in churches.

Like, I like this community.

I, we, there are good relationships and I know if we confront this thing.

This place is going to be devastated.

I'm not saying this is a good reason to do this, but this is why people do that.

and they wait.

And then the foothill, footholds get greater and the hidden is

even more hidden than we realize.

Uh, so that's the big stuff.

The other stuff just about an arrogant leader who's controlling people

and all those money dynamics, all those praising people for growth.

We need different measurements, I think.

And I think they're more, and, and I think you and I have connected on

this probably a lot through Twitter is the spirit in which we communicate.

That for me is everything.

Uh, there, there was a presidential candidate when he was among 10 other

candidates where I was like, I will never vote for this person based on

his attitude, just his spirit alone.

And I remember Christians going, he's not a pastor, he's a politician.

if you think that depending upon your role, you can no longer be

Christ-like, or no longer be loving.

then we're in trouble.

And I think there's a part of the church like that.

Well, if he's a leader, he can be a jerk in certain situations.

'cause he's a leader and if Christ showed us anything, it's the exact opposite.

It's he, although above all, he lowered himself and became nothing.

And the servant of all.

So how many people wanna be in leadership positions and be servant of all?

That's probably another problem with any institution and structure.

I thought I wanted to be a servant, but even there, there's an arrogance of,

I get fed by a, do you like my sermon?

Do you not like my sermon?

The ego is so much in intertwined in these gatherings that I think we need

to at least have much more conversation where people can come in and say, Hey

Doug, you're getting a little this and I don't cast them out of the church,

or they don't fire me immediately.

We need to have environments where we can have those discussions.

I've always, I've been saying for some time now that I'm

not sure that men, most men can handle the mantle of leadership.

Once it gets to a certain point, it crosses over.

Now we don't wanna go down this controversial path.

I think women can handle it better.

Truthfully, . But most men, we have a tendency, it feeds us.

feeds us.

Well, and Kate.

And why is that?

Just say there's no gender difference there.

There might be, let's just say there isn't.

One

of the things women have had to do for thousands and thousands of years is work

with, in situations where they didn't have power, they had to find ways to work where

they weren't the leader, they had no a.

Authority in the culture.

And so they found ways to figure out what's important and

central and what's secondary.

seen this women will work through, in the church, they'll work through conflicts.

They'll work through, they'll talk about, 'cause they've had

to do that in so many settings.

Men be the controller of their home, controller of their

house, control it, right?

The moment someone challenges, like when two men get in a fight, they both leave

and no one ever talks to anybody again.

they're just gone.

So I think that is one of the reasons why a healthier, diverse

expression within the church.

And I do believe women should be pastors, but even if you didn't

believe that theologically, you better have women in every role of

being able to speak and communicate.

And because I've found men tend to struggle more with the communication

issues often because they didn't have to.

They could just go to role, they could go to position, and they could go to power.

When you don't have position, role, and power, Then you have to learn how

to talk to people and those are the kinds of people you want in positions

of authority or they've learned how to communicate their emotions, to communicate

their ideas and not just be, I'm the boss, so take it, love it, or leave it.

Like they don't ever get to do that.

And so they don't do it in the position of power because they

found other ways to communicate.

I love that

Is that too political?

no.

Because that, I think we're about to go down there a little

bit deeper because I wanna.

I wanna ask questions about it 'cause I think it's very informative,

the direction we're headed here.

I love that you brought up the Mars Hill, the Mark Driscoll and I guess

I did know you were in that part of the country and so you probably

have some unique perspective and, and it was really interesting.

I'll also bring up one other situation that we became aware of.

We, my wife and I spent about nine months over in Australia and New Zealand back

in 2014, it was a very unique time.

We were popping in and out of churches over there, and we popped in and out of

about eight campuses of Hillsong and we were there when, When Brian Houston, it

came out, again, some issues with his father and some, Pedophilia and different

things like that with his father.

so we were there when he was addressing those issues.

And I wanna say it was very similar to what you just brought up, or at

least it sounded that way at the time.

I wanna say that, that it sounded as if, listen, we're, we're trying to address

this as best we can in light of this is an organization that we also wanna

keep it intact and not just blow it up.

So that I'll, that's a little bit

Yeah.

Yeah.

the way I said that.

But the reason I bring it up is I've seen situations and

I'm, I'm an executive coach.

I work with leaders of organizations and things like that.

So leadership is what I try to study and have some degree of

knowledge of my observation with a Mark Driscoll or almost any.

Organization that I see where someone starts, what we'll call

a startup or a church plant.

It begins growing.

You use the word growth and I'm sometimes wondering if maybe growth is

something that we should be pursuing.

It needs, it doesn't need to be the idol that we make it, but that's what

we measure in our culture and society is how many people are sitting in the seats?

What kind of money, what does the building look like, things like that.

I perceive that at some point, let's just use look at Mark for

example, that he was really pure of heart with what he was doing.

It was building, building, building, building, and somewhere

along the way it seems like.

Something flipped and he moved into protection mode instead

of what is God doing here mode.

And I know that might be oversimplifying, but when I have run into struggles

with leaders just that I work with or that I see personally, Doug, what

I see is, is they've gotten in the mode of I need to protect this entity,

this organism, this organization, and I need to protect it at all costs.

We're doing good, we're getting people baptized, we're people are being healed.

This is happening, whatever it's, we're selling Apple watches, whatever it is

we're doing, and I need to protect it.

I think that is when things get pretty toxic and dangerous.

What are your thoughts on that or observations?

You could tell me I'm wrong.

If you think I'm wrong, I'm okay with it.

Oh, you're completely wrong.

No, I think you're hitting right at some of those issues there.

Really.

Um, .I would love to write a book on this of, in Romans, the beginning of Romans.

Paul says that one of the sins that humans did, and it's confusion, is

he talking about all of humanities?

Is he talking about Israel?

He says they worshiped and served the created instead of the creator.

And some translations say the creature, but I think created works just with

the Greek, it's just hard to know.

It's like Dick and Jane language.

there's not a lot of modifiers.

You don't quite know what it says, but this image of Humans begin to

serve the created versus the creator.

So we see that from the very beginning.

What is, we've got Cain and Abel and, one understands that they get

their provision from the creator.

The other one is I don't need the creator.

Like this concept of Solomon is, gets wisdom.

And what does it use his wisdom for, to pick up women, he's, he like,

he uses what was created Moses, God has him, bring water from the rock.

And then he begins to realize, I can do this without God.

And so he hits the rock and we go, what is that about?

Why is God so concerned with that?

They begin to use what was created in them and they use it for themselves

instead of for the creator.

We have David takes a census and why does he take a census?

Like at some level, God has done all this, but now he's worried I gotta control this

thing and I gotta see how powerful we are.

And so whatever the reason is, he begins to serve the created.

One of the worst things that can happen to you as a Christian as

far as for your faith is you can have your prayers be answered.

Because once your prayers are answered, you can serve the answered

prayer instead of the creator.

And I saw this again and again in 24 years of ministry, when someone is destitute,

a drug addict, no one likes them.

Their kids have kicked them out, or their parents have kicked them

outta their home, they'll come into the church, broken, have nothing.

Jesus accepts them.

they get their life back in order, right?

They get a job.

Maybe they get a relationship and they get married and maybe they have kids.

And what you begin to see as God begins to create beautiful things

in their life, instead of serving the Creator, they begin to serve

the things that God has given them.

They begin to serve the marriage over God, the kids over God, the money over God.

I would say that's what happens with these ministries that grow.

I don't wanna just say they were always wicked, terrible people.

And I, there are people who are just out there to try to swindle.

But I think what happens is, something happens and they see miracles and then

they begin to see, well, look what I did.

Or they begin to take it and be like, this is mine to do what I want with, or

this means I have a special authority.

And so they begin to serve the creator instead of the creator.

I think Christians need to understand this.

Christians have a difficult time, let's say with science.

Science is the best example of God has created us, and now we have this amazing

capacity as humans to do amazing things.

what should the scientists do?

Stop being a scientist.

No, they should just thank God for that capacity.

I thank God that he is giving me this amazing mind to do these things.

What happens sometimes in the scientific community and God's dead, and it's

just about me and how great I am.

So now we have Christians going.

I don't believe those scientists because it's just all about, it's separated from

God and versus like, I thank you for what they've learned and I'm gonna thank

God that God helped these scientists come with this cure, or come with this

vaccine, or whatever those issues are.

So if you look at all these issues of corruption, often it's an Americans, why

wouldn't the American church be corrupted?

Is that we're very prosperous and the more prosperous we become,

we begin to serve the prosperity.

If you were to even argue that America itself is a sign of God's prosperity.

So to me, nationalism is that kind of form of, well, we like this so much and we

have these special gifts, we're just gonna use it for ourselves and we're gonna make

sure no one else in the world gets it.

if we truly are a blessed nation, then we've been blessed

to bless all other nations.

And so that would mean that whatever prosperity we have, it's for the

purpose of sharing it with all peoples.

but that's not how we talk about it.

We're gonna say, this is mine, and I want this.

We have so that nature of serving the creative versus the creative.

So I think that happened with Mark as you gain that power and that authority.

The other thing I've seen with pastors, pastors, and this is I bet you this is

true of businesses as well, when you're very successful at the beginning, you

do less assessing of what's wrong.

you just try to maintain the thing.

You just try to keep it going and they're spending like things are going and

they don't want to mess with anything.

So it's just maintain, and I've seen this in businesses, I've seen this

and, but when you've not done well in the beginning, when you launch

something and no one shows up and it's not successful in the eyes of anyone,

including yourself, what do you do?

Well, you begin to assess everything.

And in assessment, you begin to also learn and mature.

So what I would see of some of these leaders who had led these really

large growing churches is I think they lacked spiritual maturity.

And by the way, I've minister, I've, I don't know, I've interviewed

hundreds of pastors, national leaders.

I've five years at a radio show.

a lot of guys, even the last few years that there's been a

lot of prominence about them.

And I didn't find a greater maturity in those people.

And in fact, sometimes I found a simplicity, which I guess is okay,

but these are the people that were saying, follow them, read their books.

But I found people who really didn't have to struggle with what a lot of

other people had to struggle with.

The children of Israel are not formed in the promised Land.

They're formed in the wilderness.

And when we platform people who don't truly have wilderness experiences,

they're kind of dangerous.

And so my dad used to say this to me.

He'd say, I get it that elders can be 20 years old.

I understand the concept.

God can speak through anyone, he said, but some of your elders gotta be old

because they've gone through this enough.

They've experienced loss, they've experienced deaths, disappointments,

and if they still love Jesus, then that person has some authority to speak.

And I see that in a lot of the platforming of leaders.

And then they, what do they do?

they grow and then they get a conflict.

And now they have all this stuff.

They can't admit that they've been doing things wrong for the last 20 years.

So then they justify everything.

they don't grow as individuals.

They don't, even like we mentioned Mark earlier, and I get hesitant even, 'cause

I don't want Mark Driscoll to set the agenda of ano another conversation, but I

always talked as if Mark was in the room.

And I hope I'm doing this even now.

To me, mark lost his authority.

The authority he wanted to have impact that no matter what he does in life, he'll

always be seen as this person who harmed so many people and refused to reconcile.

Because what he did in Seattle is they were putting him on a discipline process.

The goal was to restore, but he had to admit that he had faults, big faults.

But instead of going through the process of reconciliation with the

people who had hurt, he had hurt.

He just left that and started something somewhere else.

And that's gonna happen again and again.

So even there, the critique there is stop codifying everything

you've done to this point.

God lives in the eternal.

Now turn to Jesus.

Let him look at all the things that you know are broken and

this is the ideological part.

Maybe this could never happen, but That's still my heart for him.

Not to toss him out, but for him to go through the process of reconciliation,

which might mean he's never a pastor again, but at least he's in right

relationship with the thousands of people that were harmed based on

the ministry that he did in Seattle

I do wonder if sometimes we have people that

they box themselves in a corner.

You mentioned this.

I think they get elevated.

They get elevated, and then they look around and they go.

Hmm.

I don't think I could do anything else, or

I don't think I could ever have the impact or, uh, people are gonna find

out that I'm a fraud or, we could just

Oh, Yeah.

run through the gamut.

can't afford to leave the ministry.

I can't do anything else.

I can't, I know people who have different theologies than what they preach, and

they talk to me privately, but they don't feel like they'd be able to survive.

And I've always thought of anything.

I wanna be in a position where I can turn in that if I'm going

the wrong direction, I can turn.

I never wanna be in a place where I'm stuck.

I have so much debt, I have so much, whatever.

Uh, now maybe other people don't have that luxury.

But you've hit it.

They, or even psychologically, because they've been propping up.

A myth, like not all of it's a myth, but they've been propping a myth that

they're a good person, a myth that they're

whatever it is.

and they would have to come to true repentance and how many people truly

repent and that part of cancel culture.

Like I believe people, pastors can repent, but it doesn't mean they

can be pastors again if they've lost the trust of the communities.

I think that's what first and second Timothy and Titus deal with.

But I do think we do need to have space that people can talk about the

darkness, without just being you're the evil person we never talk to again.

There must be a place where someone can say, I've been

engaging in a behavior where I'm meeting before it all falls apart.

some way to be able to, before it falls apart.

Whether that happens or not, I don't know, but I think you're exactly right.

By the time they get to this place, They still should turn, but it's so

hard to turn to quit to change because they've invested so much in it.

And then also there's such a trail of darkness that they either have to

justify it or they would just crumble under the weight of what they've done.

Yeah.

I think we've seen such, so many rare situations where, number

one, we've seen repentance, number two, we've seen something that

people would be restoration.

I have never liked the six months away from the pulpit.

And then you're back in, you've gone through counseling.

Here's the microphone again.

you're so talented.

You're such a great speaker.

We've got to have you in the pulpit.

That, to me, really just reeks of hypocrisy and, all types of things.

But let's do the, I wanna do this, Doug.

I want to, because we can talk about the problems all day long,

and I don't know that you and I know the solutions, however.

Neither one of us are young bucks that are just getting started in life.

We've been around the block a few times.

how old are you?

I'm, you're not a woman.

I could ask you that point blank.

How old are you?

Yeah.

I'm trying to think how old I am now.

I think I'm 52.

I

either 52.

or 53.

I was Those who can do math.

I was born January 29th, 1972.

And then you can figure that out depending upon when you're listening to this.

But yeah,

1972.

I'm trying to think of what was going on there.

I was born three days before JFK was shot,

there you go.

so

you're part of the conspiracy is that

I was there.

And,

you're in the

the grassy knoll is

there was a pregnant Yeah, that's right.

it was not,

A newborn child.

real and all that.

But I think the thing I'd love for us to discuss here, Doug, with

All this wisdom that we have here, I get the impression, tell me

if I'm right or wrong, that you have quite a bit of experience.

You've put a lot of thought into things.

you really, uh, are, are serious even though we joke some about your

spiritual walk, but you also don't believe that you know everything.

If I'm incorrect on any of that, correct me.

Well here, here's the deal.

Put hook up me to a lie detector.

Probably my subconscious is way more arrogant than my outward like, but I

know that my subconscious is probably a liar 'cause it gives me crazy dreams at

night and I shouldn't trust that guy.

So there's a part of me that certainly has the arrogance of, let me give

you my opinion 'cause it's the most important opinion in the room.

But I just, the nature of it is how could we remotely think that

we understand the fullness of God?

Or even, you know, the, like that part, like how would I even begin to

think, I could say, here's the three things God does, maybe there's four.

it's just absurd.

If I did that for you, if any person said, this is what you

need to believe about Doug.

I.

Just, these are the four things about Doug and we all unite around these four things.

They would be wrong.

Not one group on this planet, even if they gave me an Enneagram test,

could not say, this is who Doug is.

And yet the arrogance to unite around and, just, tell people

they're going to hell because we think we have it all figured out.

Now.

I have strong opinions and I will tell you them, and in some ways I'm very much,

and I believe the Bible's a sacred book and things that people will be like, ah,

boy, you're one of those conservatives.

In fact, I take it all as God's word.

And, but then people go, they'll ask me to parse that out.

And what I mean by that, I go, I don't know what I mean by that.

I just mean that I'm gonna take this as the sacred book and

it's God's fault if it isn't.

Like this is the book that I'm reading and this is the one I believe, and, but

the concept to think that you have it all figured out and I'm still growing.

And I'm still, and I think when you're in the center of God's

grace, you can look at your life.

And I think one of the reasons people don't look at their sins and their

faults and the failings is they don't understand a gospel of grace.

That I believe I'm in the center of God's grace.

I'm not on the edge, and I'm gonna fall off, out into the

abyss of darkness and death.

And if I'm in the center of God's grace and love, then I can

say, search my heart, know me.

And if there'd be any wicked way in me, reveal it.

And that's another problem with these church cultures.

If we don't have that conception, like I would say in our church,

there's no super spiritual people.

We all have the same amount of the spirit.

There's no, there's no, we just do it.

There's no super, I use fairly spiritual as a moniker.

I use, my website is fairly spiritual.org.

It's a play on words.

People say, well, I'm fairly spiritual.

they joke about that.

But the idea is there's no hierarchy of spirituality.

There's no intermediaries.

Now I got opinions, I'm gonna share them.

Do they connect with what God is talking with you about?

Sure.

But if you say, the reason I'm doing this is 'cause Doug said it

in a podcast, you are in trouble.

And I'm in trouble.

So I don't believe that I have it all figured out.

I'm still trying to be open, um, to, help me Lord.

Especially with my own life.

I tend to be, I'm a little dissatisfied with, man, Doug, you could grow in this.

You could be a better husband, you could be a better father.

And I don't wanna be guilt motivated, but I know I have room for growth

and I've never met a person who didn't have room for growth.

And the most scary people are the people who refuse to get help.

The people who refuse to get prayer, the people who never apologize.

Those are the scariest people.

So I don't wanna be associated with that.

I don't want to ever prop up a person, a leader, anyone who is just, look

at how I do it and do it my way.

And I'm the model for success.

I would preach messages where I'm pretty extemporaneous in how I preach.

And I would say something and I'd realize I did it for the wrong reasons.

Like, you can say the right things for the wrong reasons.

And it's sin, it's, in my opinion, this is the old time.

It's sin.

And I would say something and people might shake their head like, that's right.

But I know I'm saying it because I'm upset about something that was done to me.

And I'm saying it 'cause I've been hurt.

And I would stop in the middle of my sermon.

I'd say, you know what I just said?

I apologize for that.

I'm sorry.

I said that out of hurt.

It might be true that people should do this, but I'm saying it because I'm bitter

about some things that have happened in my life and I, forgive me for that.

Or, and people would come up afterwards and say, you didn't have to say that.

That's true.

People should be that way.

But that's to me, how God sees things that the condition of my heart, the

motivation of my heart and the church that doesn't acknowledge that reality

is in trouble where I can look good.

Like in this podcast it can be, I can fool you all, but God knows my heart.

And in my heart I've still got room to grow.

I still have.

And that even that issue, like I'll probably be thinking about.

Doug, be careful.

Do you talk about Mark Driscoll?

Because you're bitter, because you're resentful, because you're, because

no matter what, if you hooked me up to a lie detector that worked

in this context, there's a part of me that is a little resentful.

Shouldn't be, but is he succeeded.

I didn't.

He got the platform.

I didn't, you know what?

It's still there.

And I think as Christians, if we could acknowledge that duplicity in

us, not only do we not have it all figured out, but there's duplicity.

You can say you love someone, but also inwardly be like,

ah, person kind of bothers me.

Like we have to acknowledge that duplicity so God can minister to the whole person.

If we don't, then we allow a part of our personality to be in isolation and

in darkness, and then we're dangerous.

So one of the things that is such a challenge in that arena is

that we are looking, I don't wanna say we're looking for a savior, but

that 'cause that's a little harsh.

I think people are looking for saviors in the form of people, let's say mostly men,

Yeah.

and they're looking for that in the form of who's in the

pulpit, who's head of my organization, if I'm in a company who's the person

sitting in my state house or my White House or things like that.

And so one of the things that I think is causing our issues, and

we don't definitely know this, is causing the issues over on

the social platforms if we go

yeah,

is that we are looking for, I don't even, I don't even know if

perfection is the right word, Doug, but we're looking for people to look up to.

I'm not sure that there are many people that we can, and then once

we find who we think that person is, we latch onto them and we can see no

wrong in them or things like that.

And and the reason I'm bringing all this up, and this is maybe something

I want us to discuss here in the last few minutes we have, is that

we're recording this in early 2024.

I don't know exactly when it'll release probably sometime around the next

few weeks or something like that.

This is an election year.

And election years have a tendency to bring out the worst in some of

the things we're talking about.

And especially in the church world too, by the way.

We're not, in fact, we're part of the problem, not

necessarily part of the solution.

And so one of the things I'd love to ask Doug, is where are you

landing now with how you gauge?

I, I don't know what the words judge you, filter, parse, whatever.

Leaders and what you see in others and how you determine who you really wanna

listen to and who you wanna say, you know what, I don't wanna listen to 'em.

You've already said you're a peacemaker, so you're, I'm guessing you're not

gonna blast one person over the other.

I would let one know that I disagree with them, but you More of a peacemaker.

But how does someone navigate this environment that we're in,

in a year, like we're in today?

And I know, I know you don't know all the answers, but, because I also get the

feeling that you've been on a journey where two years ago you did it differently

than maybe you did it four years ago, that you did it eight years ago, that you did

it probably growing up the way you did.

Is that a, is that even a fair question?

Sorry,

No, it's not fair.

And how dare you.

Uh, so I was raised in an interesting environment.

My parents' favorite president was President Carter.

So that can tell you we were in evangelical circles, but he

was not liked by evangelicals.

But I knew he was a Christian and I knew he wasn't acting.

he actually is a Christian, whether

you liked his

I wanna PI wanna pause you just to get context here.

I grew up in the state of Georgia and we did not vote for Jimmy Carter

Yeah.

And so my son's middle name is Carter.

that's the, but I'm not, you know, I've felt disillusioned that I often feel

like there's no place for me to go.

So I, as far as politically, it's been a struggle.

But here's the issue is that this is a really hard thing to tell anyone.

I have, in the book posting piece, I have a chapter on when justice

demands conflict, one of the struggles, I don't, Christians will do this.

They'll say, let's say they did this with Trump.

they'd be like, I'm a Republican.

I'll never be a Democrat, but I don't like Trump, so I'm just not voting.

And they'll see that as like a more virtuous thing.

And it's not, it could certainly be a choice, but there's nothing

more virtuous about that.

And it's probably a sign that you have a level of privilege because

if I probably will be least impacted of whoever's our next president.

versus other people will have severe impacts, especially

minorities, for instance.

so for me to say, this is what you should do, just get along and, don't

worry about politics and the, I don't have the perspective of, my, my Hispanic

friends, you know, I don't, I don't know.

or any, and this doesn't mean that would go towards one party or not.

It's just, so that's, I gotta be very careful to come in and say,

I found the solution to this.

I'm pretty disillusioned, disillusioned by but I think we're in a season of anything.

A lot of people have called themselves Christian.

We have an expression of cultural Christianity and at some level I

think that is crumbling and I'd like it to continue to crumble.

I don't want the decimation of the church But I think we're seeing a radicalization

of people who call themselves Christians, that they're becoming more and more

polarized and more and more political in the sense of, here's an issue

between being political and partisan.

And I talk about this in the book posting piece, political

as I have a political opinion.

And if you're voting, you should have a political opinion.

So if will God will work it out.

this is how God worked it out.

He allows us to vote in our democracy, our republic.

being political is nothing wrong.

Your views on gun control and whatever, partisan is not a Christian virtue.

Partisan is, I want my side to win and your side to lose.

I want it to be my country, not your country.

I want, it's not reconciling partisan communication.

The goal is to destroy you.

The goal is you're the idiots and we're the good guys.

And that's what we're seeing.

The extreme partisanship in our culture where there's less and less people

in the middle that say, how do we engage politically to solve problems

across the aisle as Christians?

I think we should run away from any environment that is,

that reeks the partisanship.

Yeah, in the sense of we're making jokes about those snowflakes or those, and you

see this and you can listen to NPR and they all make a joke about the far right.

And you can listen to far right people, they're joking about and they're not

even Christians, that we do, we'd belittle their faith, we'd belittle

that is not Christ-like, uh, I would never want someone to treat me this

way, so I'm not gonna treat them well.

So that's kind of the process to me.

I look for politicians and there's, it's hard to know at a

national level for that existence.

I think one of the things I talk about in my book is trending local.

If you're struggling with these national things, trend local, find what's happening

in your local community and get connected.

And I don't mean just get connected with radicalized people,

but get to know your mayor.

if you're a small enough town.

Good to know him.

I, the mayor in the town that I ministered for most of the years, we had different

political affiliations, but he's my brother in Christ and I love him.

He's my friend.

I got to know him as a real person and small town.

It's often not whether you're left or right, it's just whether

you can get the roads paved, it's just, it's not the same thing.

In fact, don't elect a small time mayor who's just all partisan.

You want a mayor who can get money to help you with the

things that no one can pay for.

But that's what I would help.

People are so disillusioned.

Maybe you can't even look at the national news.

Find something local, you know, maybe go to the school board.

It'll be hard.

You go to the school board and maybe you'll see a lot of toxic stuff.

And instead of focusing on the toxic stuff, find the one person in that

school board who seems to represent your spirit and encourage them and

say, how can I partner with you and what can we do for the future?

So those are the things to me is find people at some level

have the spirit that you have.

Find a way to partner with them.

And then I also have to believe this is how I've been, this is

how disillusioned I've been.

Even if our entire nation's republic disappears, that God's still good

and in control and I'm gonna be okay.

'cause I cannot move forward believing that the health of my faith and the health

of Christianity is determined by who's the next president or who's the next governor.

I just can't do that.

I have opinions about what will go better or worse.

I am political.

I am very much strong in my convictions, but there's certain context to me.

This is a context where I'm trying to facilitate an environment

where Republicans and Democrats and Green Party and Liberal and

Libertarians are all welcomed.

So I'm gonna try to find a way.

To not just win a point that doesn't really help anyone.

If I communicate something that maybe drew people together, that's one thing.

But if I just, preach to the choir and they're all like, yeah, we agree with you,

Doug, I don't see any purpose in that.

If it doesn't change anyone's heart, why do that?

So instead, let's facilitate spaces where people of different

political opinions can come together.

I know we didn't talk much about that.

I'm glad the book, but Posting Peace talks about, that's the

problem with our internet age.

It's segmenting us into these, these environments that are radicalizing us.

And we have to work against that to find ways to be in community

of, not like-minded people.

Ultimately maybe like spirited people with different opinions about the world.

Or I, like I asked you earlier, people that aren't,

I know the word dogmatic might be overused, but aren't so dogmatic.

I'm concerned that we've got a entire culture, civilization right

now that they don't know history.

Because I'm sitting here looking at, by the way, I wasn't able to get through

the entire book posting piece, but.

You wrote possibly one of my favorite chapters that I've read in some time.

I think it was chapter six.

It was one that I was able to read because you did two things.

You combined two things.

I think that was the right chapter.

You told some great backstory on you, I think when you were sick, when you

were in middle school and all that.

And then you led into the Jefferson Adams relationship, I think did.

But was both that the same chapter?

Am I re, did I remember that correctly

I don't remember which chapters then, but Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I learned about Doug.

and he reflected and showed what to me.

I've read, I've read some things historically that was one of the

ugliest elections we've ever seen, which we can't even grasp that.

People think 2020 was bad.

They go, eh, I don't think you're around an 1800.

And so I do think we just don't have concept perspective.

We're very narrow.

We're we think very selfishly of just ourselves and we don't

try to look at other things.

And I love the message of what you had in posting peace and I believe you're

doing this over on X, Twitter is just, and maybe I'm trying to do it here.

Maybe that's what I'm hopeful that we're having some conversations that

people just don't have in other places.

And maybe that'll help because I'm not excited about as we head into

the rest of this year, truthfully.

Yeah.

No, I'm glad you, I think people are having these conversations, but they're

not the dominant The conversation at the Thanksgiving table, the

extremists speak, and the rest are trying to keep the family together.

And I think we gotta remember that.

That's why we do need to have conversations like this.

You can be like, what was this about?

what were we really talking about?

Is this about selling a book or my platform?

Or your platform?

I hope not.

obviously if someone bought a book, I get $3 or something, but here's the thing.

By doing this, there's other people who feel less alone.

We're less trying to change people's minds as there's other people like us.

We're not alone in this.

And they're like, oh, good.

I'm not alone.

And that's the danger.

The danger is we begin to think that these extremists are extreme expressions.

Is the expression.

And that's to me, even people who came out of extreme churches and then they think

that's the church, and they leave the church, they're like, that's the church.

I don't like the church anymore.

okay, that was your experience with church, but now you're buying

into the same deceptive logic.

When you went to that church, your church was like, we're the church and we do it

right, and everybody else does it wrong.

And now you've left it and you're still letting them set the agenda for

your life saying they're the church.

So I don't go to church.

There's other expressions.

There's, by the way, if you went to a white church, just go

to a non-white church, you'll find a different expression.

Go to a poorer church.

If you went to a wealthy church, go to a smaller church.

If you went to a bigger church, go to a, there's, go to a high church,

Catholic, Lutheran, whatever.

or if you were in that environment.

go to where it's just uncomfortable people falling on the floor.

It's just, there's a larger expression.

So what you're doing here, and I know you work in this intersection, right?

Even with these podcasts and the business stuff, the church stuff, am I too churchy?

Am I too business too?

That's where we're all living in this incredible, in-between place,

and we need to encourage each other.

I'm so glad what you're doing, it is needed.

We need people in your space that you don't know how to define.

I know you define yourself as a coach, but you're more than that.

And it probably gets frustrating.

what am I even doing and how do I define it to other things?

You don't have to.

God defends your work.

God defends your worth.

You just do what he put on your heart and let him connect those things.

So I'm doing that.

You're doing that.

People listening are doing that, and that's where, that's how

we're gonna solve the problem.

Be bold.

Do what God's put on your heart.

It doesn't matter if it fits in anywhere else, and by all means, stop

being a jerk while you're doing it.

Be kind.

Be loving, be reconciling Christ-like maybe even that's my heart.

And we can unite on Twitter, our formerly Twitter now x or threads

or whatever we're going to next.

We can unite based on these things.

That's good, Doug.

That's a good, that's a good capper here.

Where can people find you get, get your book posting piece?

Like I said, I, I've enjoyed probably two thirds through it.

I wanna circle back 'cause anytime someone says they're a reluctant

pastor in the title of your other book, I'd love to kinda read that and all.

But where can people find you?

And then I've got one more question before we wrap.

Sure.

a couple things.

One, if you just pray, if you're anointed, you'll find me, you'll

just follow the Glory Cloud.

Now, this is what you can do, one, fairly

spiritual.org is my website.

Are you?

we need some details.

We

Yeah.

For the non, yeah, for those of you who aren't spiritual enough.

Yeah.

Fairly spiritual.org or.com.

Yeah, you can go to Doug Burch.

if you search my name, you'll find me.

And I do interact on those platforms.

I also have a bunch of books that I haven't sold because I'm

not a great, successful author.

So if you have a church group or study group, and you contact me, I'm

gonna find a way to send you a box of books if you can pay for the shipping.

I'm telling you right now, I just wanna get those out there.

I've given up on being the world famous author.

instead I'd like to just get the message out there.

So contact me if you're like, I'm interested in this and

I'll be glad to serve you.

Very good.

hey Doug, we are seek, go create those three words.

I'll let you choose one is my final question.

Seek, go or create.

Which one do you like right now and

Hmm.

I think create is the best way to truly bring something

life-giving into this world.

we become a, an assessment culture where fewer people are creating

and we're just assessing the creating or we're aggregating the

creating or retweeting the creating.

So to create anything, a poem, especially art, a song, a book,

doesn't have to be Christian.

Just there's more creating needed.

Right now I'm trying to write a comedic novel fiction.

I don't know if it'll ever be published, but I just want to do that and I think

God's given me permission to do that.

This is not, there'll be spiritual elements in it, but the reality

is I love the creative process.

I, I think we can find so many things over just something new and real.

And so I would encourage your audience, especially if someone's like, well,

I have a book that I've thought I might do, or I might take up this.

Just do it.

Just start creating, it should have value in the doing, not whether it's a success.

Just everything I do, I try to have value in the doing.

I'm glad I wrote books, regardless of how many you are sold when you create

something, I tend to, I never regret that.

I do regret the things.

I didn't create the things that I just, I let other people take

my time and my energy instead of doing what was on my heart.

So I would encourage people.

You have permission to create,

I like that, Doug, thank you.

I know I am at my happiest when I'm in some kind of creating mode, and

so I definitely agree with that.

Again, Doug, thanks for joining us.

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