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Matt: Hello friends.

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Welcome to the optimist podcast today.

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I'm your host, Matt drank on and
today on the podcast we have Mr.

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Les McDaniel less.

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Here's a little background on him.

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He's an amazing human he's.

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48 years of age, 27 years
married to his lovely wife.

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Heatherly four children
and a bonus son-in-law.

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He's very competitive.

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I first met him at the front row
dads event at one of our retreats
where he taught me the ways of
the trader Joe's sliced mangoes.

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He's also in the exchange
community as facility.

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And less is such an incredible human
being and this discussion we're going
to go deep in a number of places.

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He is someone who's truly
overcome many challenges.

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Some of those challenges, if you
can imagine he was a boy growing up
named Leslie, and that doesn't say

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at all right there, uh, he is, uh,
not as tall as the average human.

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So he grew up shorter, a little bit
smaller with the name of last, but just
imagine that being the place we start.

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No, there was opportunities with
bullies and school and he Chronicles
part of that in our discussion.

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Also, his wife had a

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Les: stroke that was an incredibly
challenging time in both their lives and

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Matt: how they came back
together from that he Chronicles
that our discussion as well.

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Les: Um, one thing that
you should know about less.

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Matt: He's a very humble person.

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So he won't talk about
himself with great accolades.

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And I will, I will gladly
share a couple of his accolades
when he was in real estate.

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He was involved in largest
corporate real estate deals in
the history of his organization.

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This is back in Texas,
a number of years ago.

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And so we had massive
success in real estate.

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He also now, uh, is a coach now
and I'll lead you to his website
and he'll give you some information
on how to connect with them.

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Last is just an amazing

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Les: human being.

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He's a, he's a

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Matt: great person to listen to channel.

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Because he's got a great, a great
heart for loving, caring about
all people, some things we talked
about today on the discussion.

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If you can name the problem,
understand the solution.

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He likes to ask a lot of questions to
get to understand exactly what it is
that the problem is before he tackles it.

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When you're having cases.

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Make something of it.

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The less is someone doesn't sit still.

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He likes to continue to take positive
action towards and whatever it is,
the objective is, uh, he believes
going head first into your fears.

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He Chronicles his story
today in the podcast.

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He's always open.

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He's always willing to be curious.

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So get ready and Buckley your
seats in for a shallow dive.

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At first, it gets deep,
fast in this discussion.

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This is a truly amazing human being.

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I love very much things, less McDaniel.

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Welcome.

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Les: Hello, and welcome to
the eternal optimist podcast.

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The show for optimists by optimist.

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This is the show for people who see
the good in the world and want to make
a positive difference in the lives
of their families and communities.

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Each week, you'll hear inspiring
stories that will get you thinking
big and playing more offense in life
with your host and high performance.

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Coach Matt drink on

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Matt: my friend Les McDaniel.

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Good morning.

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Less.

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Les: Good morning, sir.

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How are you coping?

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Matt: We are fantastic today.

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It is great to have you on, I've been
looking forward to this for some time.

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You're one of my favorite
people in the universe.

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So no pressure.

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Uh, let's have a good time today.

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How the heck are you today?

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My friends,

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Les: I am.

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I'm doing pretty well today.

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You know, life is, life is just a, a
wonderful rollercoaster ride that I enjoy.

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I just, I I'm finding ways to find
joy in almost all circumstances
getting to do stuff like this with
you, makes it even all the more.

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Ah, ah, well,

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Matt: you're too kind.

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I'd love to dive a little bit deeper.

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Just kind of get right into it right away.

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When you say that you're finding
joy and you're able to find
circumstances and find joy in the
circumstance, what do you mean by that?

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What's an

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Les: example.

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Oh my goodness.

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There's so many different examples, but
I think that we live in a world that
has, has a desire to live in one of two

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dualities it's good and bad or right
versus wrong or joy versus sadness.

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And there's this.

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Struggle that I think that our world
has, and that I'm dealing with in my
own life, which is, you know, my wife
has got chronic myeloid leukemia.

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You know, I've just recently kind
of discovered that some of the,
my past traumas in my own life
are not totally fully healed.

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And yet there's, there's a, not
a resistance in me to wanting to
welcome that challenge, to welcome

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her, her cancer, to really begin
to dive into what that looks like.

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Well, we're jumping right in aren't we,
but, uh, I'll tell you that one of the, I
was listening to Rahm Doss this morning.

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He has this saying that is all
suffering is showing you, is
where your mind is still clinging.

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And the idea for me is very much that
that is a deep rooted thing within me,
that I recognize that anytime that I

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feel sad or I'm suffering and it's,
and you can even be suffering in.

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Honestly, but anytime I feel that
what is really going on deep within
me is this thing that I'm holding onto

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this idea of what life should be, as
opposed to the reality that is present
at this particular stage in my life.

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You know, we have a lot of things going
on, besides that we got, you know, my,
my son is leaving the nest, if you will.

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And he's the last of my four
kids to leave the nest, uh, this.

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And there's this sense of
excitement that comes along with
that and a sense of sadness.

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So it's like, there's both of these
things walking hand in hand at all times
in our world, there's never a situation
where something is lately joyful.

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It's always letting go of
something in order to gain some.

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And so I think the joy for me is
living kind of as best as I can.

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And, and in perfectly with an open hand,
not with closed fist, tightly held so
that, you know, onto whatever it is

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that I think I should have, but just
being open to what, what is ever next.

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And, and it is, it is a, you
know, it's literally like a roller
coaster where you're rising to

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the top of that roller coaster and
you start to grip onto the rail.

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And then there's a sense of you finally,
you get over that hump and the joy comes
all of a sudden you can start to feel

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your hands lift up in the air and feel
that joy of that freedom, just that free
fall and knowing that, oh, this is great.

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I know that every feels that way about it.

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Matt: So you went deep, fast, less.

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Uh, wow.

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I didn't even ask the question
about what are the challenges
that you've overcome in your life.

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You just went straight into one and,
uh, thanks for sharing that with this.

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Les: That's where joy is.

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So how else could I describe it?

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You know,

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Matt: Well, I think that a lot of people
that might be a foreign concept of,
you know, this is a great challenge.

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This is something that has a
potential for a lot of pain.

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It is a lot of pain.

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When you say your wife and you say
cancer, you know, that certainly brings
up kind of a queasy feeling in my stomach.

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It feels painful.

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And even to even talk about that and
your next statement afterwards is
around, you know, being able to find

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the joy in things, you know, I'd love
to just back up for a second since
you've you took the ball and ran with

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it, man, but let's back up a second
and I'd love to outline some of these
challenges that you've had in your life.

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What they've taught you and how
you've gotten to this place where
you are in your life right now.

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So could you back up for a second
and share with us, what are some
of the challenges you faced?

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Let's kind of deconstruct what they've
taught you and how you've maintained joy

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Les: throughout th I mean, it is a
deep subject and, and I really I've
been on this journey of, of depths.

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If you will.

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For quite some time.

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And it's so it's, it's really kind
of hard, especially considering that
even recently, I've, I've ran it and

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come into a group of guys that have
just been really supportive of me,
not to mention that for our dads.

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That's another group of guys has
been incredibly supportive to me.

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My life has it.

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Hasn't been a.

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Cherries or whatever, whatever the
great sayings are that it's always easy.

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I've been very blessed, but it's
blessed because of how I think I've
decided to look at life, my quest and

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pursuit of how I want to see the world
versus what maybe is really playing
out is probably where that comes in.

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I've never been.

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Um, even as a kid, I should
say I was never someone who
just was like status quo.

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I was, I was born into this world, a runt
named Leslie that's where, that's, where,

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Matt: that's, where it began right there.

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I mean,

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Les: you, you know, you are born
and you're the smallest kid in your
class for years and years and years

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gear you're on the first day of
school, your teacher says Leslie
McDaniel and you're like, That's me.

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And then, you know, it's less, it's
less and like less, as much better.

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I mean, that's the complete opposite
of more and, you know, big, it's not
necessarily something that we always
think of as positive in our world, so

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that it created in me a deep curiosity
around people and how to navigate
that world where I didn't get my butt
handed to me everyday by bullies.

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And so I learned how to befriend them.

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I learned how to, how to connect.

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Each and every person that was in my
world and how to, how to survive and
thrive in many ways, just as a result
of that, you know, I was a funny kid.

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Um, probably more out of, I was able
to take the jokes first and foremost.

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And then I learned how to start to create
a world where I could make people laugh.

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My teachers laugh.

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I was kind of the class clown
that they loved, but it also
came with a lot of struggle.

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You know, I had, I had some, uh, I've
had many times where I was raised in
the church and the church was, I always
took things that were in scripture.

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Very literally I really felt deep down
in my soul that we were supposed to live
this particular way that Jesus lived.

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And at that time, that's all I
really knew was this particular way
of like, this is how we live and I

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would ask questions and I would, and
they were the, you know, basically.

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W why is it that homeless
guy coming to church with us?

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And why isn't that homeless guy?

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Our neighbor shouldn't we love him too.

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And, or I would just try to understand
people and why they would do
things the way they would do them.

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And, and I would know people that were,
seemed really good on the outside,
but I could hear the, this judgment
that would sometimes come from the.

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That sounded like.

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Yeah, but they, they kind of
have to do certain things and
conform to certain patterns.

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Well, that made me a target too.

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You know, that made me a little bit of
a target because I was always trying to
find ways to open the door to people.

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And, and when it felt like no

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Matt: less, if you could, if I could
interrupt you for a sec, when you say
it made you a target too, can you think
back to a, uh, an incident or a time

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where there was a bully or where you were
a target, uh, something that maybe the
audience can relate to in the moment?

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Can you describe

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Les: that?

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I'm trying to, let me see if
I can go back in way back.

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Matt: And for those of you listening
right now, Les, he is not that old.

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I believe less helped you.

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You're right.

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About 45 right now.

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I

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Les: believe I appreciate that.

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48 48.

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I don't know.

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Let me see if I can go.

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I haven't thought about one.

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That goes way back.

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You know, I, I, there were many
times in my life where I found myself
standing up for people that, that
were in the midst of getting bullied.

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I do have one, I do have one, you know,
one of my good friends, one of my best
friends when I was in high school, decided

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he thought it would really be a good idea
to get in a fight with a guy who was a
quasi gangster and was a part of a gang.

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And in the wonderful west
Texas town of Abilene.

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You know, I was like, what
in the world are you doing?

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And so I knew what we were getting into.

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I knew this guy, I knew who was
going to be showing up to this fight.

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And I'm like, I'm going to go with you
and we're not going to end up fighting.

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I showed up.

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And, you know, I looked at the situation
and I saw one guy over here who's, uh,
who had a, uh, a particular sawed-off
type weapon in his trench coat,

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which was just like hilarious that
he thought he was hiding it, several
others who were packing and the guy
who was about to fight who had a knife.

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And I, I just literally looked at all of
these guys and I'm like, guys, here's the.

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None of this is going to go
down for the good for anyone.

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You know, you, this got you, who's got
your gun, you're gonna pull it out.

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And then what you're going to,
you're going to kill shoot.

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And over what two guys who are just
trying to settle this something that's
a disagreement about some girl or
whatever it was at that particular time.

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And the irony of it was is that I was
both the friends of these guys that were
also gangsters, because I told you I
learned this way of being able to manage.

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And I was also the friends with this
other, my best friend, you know?

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And

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Matt: how did the gang quasi
gangsters take it when you said this?

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Like, what are they looking like

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Les: right now, when I appealed to
reason, literally they, they were,
they were all kind of like, oh yeah.

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You know, I guess that makes sense.

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Uh, in the end, there was some
yelling, there was some screaming that
everybody left and it became nothing

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and nobody fought, nobody swung a
punch in it and it looks that way.

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And I would put myself in
that place pretty regularly.

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And in defense of not just
the person, like my, it wasn't
just about my best friend.

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It was about all of us in that moment.

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And I mean, looking back it's
like, that was just stupid.

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Right?

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It was like, why would you show
up to a gang fight where there are
going to be guns and knives with
nothing, except for your words.

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Matt: I mean, maybe you're you're,
you're young, you're in high school.

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You, you have this idealism.

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You want to stand up for people to stand
up for the little guys, stand up for your
friends, by the way, you are the little
guy and you're standing up for everyone.

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So you had this huge heart
and you want to do good.

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Let's keep moving.

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So you go through high school.

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We, we, I get a sense of
who you are as a human.

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Uh, you've got a huge heart.

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Are some of the challenges that
are coming in the next decade of
your life and in the twenties.

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Les: I mean, twenties, you know,
I was a good Christian kid.

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I'd kind of conformed a lot of things.

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You know, I was, I was this kid
who had actually, when I, and I
got married young, I mean, I got
married when I was 21 years old.

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And so I've been married
27 years now or almost 20.

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So.

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I had an amazing world with her,
but, and we were very involved in
church at that particular juncture.

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And literally I remember knocking on some
of the people's doors when they wouldn't
show up for Wednesday night service and

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having this kind of gentle conversation
about don't forsake the assembly
and all those other kinds of stuff.

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That's pretty hilarious and conservative,
but, but still within me was this reading
of, of this great story and learning
about this unbelievable mercy and grace.

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And as I started to do that, we
started to work with people that were.

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But at the same time my wife was pregnant.

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We had a pregnant drug addict who moved
in with us and we helped her, you know,
along that path just by loving her

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and just, just being there for helping
her get into a house at one point.

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And you know, all of it was, it
was good and it was meaningful.

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There was all the, a lot of things
around that that were just unique
about how the church responded, which

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was not necessarily always the way
that I thought, or should it be.

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Uh, versus the reality, which
was that, you know, you, when you
help people, it doesn't mean that
they're going to turn out exactly.

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Like you hope it doesn't mean that
they're going to flip a switch and all
of a sudden be good people or conform

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to the way that we think that I think
it should look what social standards
are and all that kind of stuff.

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And it was just, that was one of the many
conversations that I've had over the years
with people that were different than.

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And learning how to love people and
realizing that some of their choices don't
make them bad, that we are all just kind

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of products of our, of our upbringing, of
our circumstances and that it's not easy.

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And that, and in that it, it started
to well up in me, like, what does
this mean for us to be loving?

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What does it mean to love our
neighbors, to love our enemies?

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Like, what does this, what does all this
mean to really begin to love people no
matter what, no matter where they're at.

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And I, and I was radical in some ways
about that and very defensive of those
who were underrepresented in our.

245
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And it's just such a deep thing for me
that that, uh, has been a problem in my
own mind because it's, it, it leads me

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to be in, in many ways, looked at like
that those who are underrepresented.

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And I don't like that because I, I, my
family and, you know, it, it would be
like, literally my family, my parents, if
I was to say, Hey, I really liked this.

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I want to love this other person.

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That's out here on the fringes
and bring them into our home.

250
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And my parents be like, well,
we don't want them here for
Christmas or Thanksgiving.

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That's not what.

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And it's not that they aren't loving
or wanting to be that for those
people, it's just that it breaks,

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breaks them out of their mold of what
it's supposed to, they have created,
and it makes us all uncomfortable.

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And it's always messy, you know, the way
it has been for many once in my life.

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And it drove me to actually go back
and get my masters of divinity at
Abilene Christian, because I was just

256
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so tired of feeling like I was this
odd ball and how I was viewing things.

257
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That was good.

258
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And amazing and empowering.

259
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And at the same time, it just created
a, uh, in many ways, a greater
distance between myself and those who

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cause it, it literally was like, yes,
we are supposed to live this way.

261
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Or we have the opportunity
to live this way.

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It's not the way we were supposed to.

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We can be those who
provide that in the world.

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Matt: Sounds to me like you are in this
time in your life and your twenties,
you're still have this place of love.

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And I say still because you
still have it today too.

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Like, this is, this is the
core theme of you is love.

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Is.

268
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And even when this ideal of love is
something that others around you that
are close to you that are important
to you, even though they may not

269
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see it, the exact same frame, you're
willing to be uncomfortable because
you believe so strongly in it.

270
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And this presented challenges because
others don't see it, the same frame that.

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Les: And, and I'm, I'm
just willing to be curious.

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I mean, I think, I think I've
just, I don't know who it was
that told me when I was younger.

273
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That there's nothing that I can do to
shape God, to change God or to change
the creator or whatever you want to

274
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call this source that, that has of all
things, this thing that does what it does.

275
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And I can't break that.

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And, and the more that I, I felt
free to do that, the more, it, it
both sort of made me feel sometimes
like an outsider, which wasn't true.

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It just is what it made me feel
like, because I curiosity often made,
created fear in others because of

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the, you know, we, we, as humans,
we want to be, we want to believe.

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We want that space of feeling
like we belong somewhere.

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00:17:00,540 --> 00:17:06,480
And when, when we start building
that belonging around belief systems
that are always shifting, always

281
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,290
changing, it creates a little bit
of uncertainty that we don't want.

282
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We want to be certain about this
afterlife thing or whatever it might be.

283
00:17:14,460 --> 00:17:21,869
And we're willing to forgo even
happiness now, which is the most
bizarre thing we're we're, we're
willing to take on hell on earth.

284
00:17:22,785 --> 00:17:29,445
For an eternity in heaven, for lack of
a better word, this is sounding awful,
your spiritual and religious and it,

285
00:17:29,445 --> 00:17:32,325
everything is spiritual my book, but
I don't mean to be religious in this.

286
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This is life like that.

287
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The essence of life is, is fundamentally
grounded in our ability to understand
the tensions that we live in.

288
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And when we start to think that there
is some way for us to capture a secure.

289
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In some form of understanding of God
or defining God or a defining community
or whatever, we start to alienate

290
00:17:54,690 --> 00:18:02,300
ourselves and others from what it
truly means to be human, to be truly
a one with co with creation and with.

291
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I mean, we do this in all sorts of ways.

292
00:18:04,935 --> 00:18:09,945
I mean, look at the west compared to
the east, you know, we call the east
woo and the west is what, what are we

293
00:18:09,945 --> 00:18:13,875
dogmatically entrepreneurial driven to
success and driven to these other things.

294
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These are all related to this
very question of, you know, what
it means to love one another.

295
00:18:18,675 --> 00:18:25,004
And, and when we are, the more we separate
ourselves into the mindset of creating
our identity around certain beliefs or

296
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around certain practices, the more we
start to create a world that separates.

297
00:18:29,639 --> 00:18:32,909
From the fullness that of joy
that we really want to experience.

298
00:18:33,030 --> 00:18:34,439
I'll give you one example
of one more example.

299
00:18:34,439 --> 00:18:42,899
Like when I want to, when I seek security
and I build up walls around myself
and I have enough money and enough
savings in a, in a great business and

300
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you know, all these things, the first
thing that I have to do is I have to set
security systems up security cameras.

301
00:18:48,060 --> 00:18:50,310
I need to arm myself and I
need to find ways to get.

302
00:18:50,854 --> 00:18:52,145
To maintain that security.

303
00:18:52,175 --> 00:18:53,824
That's not, that's not security.

304
00:18:53,824 --> 00:18:55,685
That that means I'm insecure.

305
00:18:55,774 --> 00:18:58,834
It means that I have to have all
these things in order to be okay.

306
00:18:59,135 --> 00:19:05,375
And so it's the very thing that when we
create that security that we think we
want we're in at the very same moment, we

307
00:19:05,375 --> 00:19:08,615
are embracing the fullness of insecurity
because now we don't want to lose it.

308
00:19:08,645 --> 00:19:15,304
Where is that holding on tight
to the things that we, that we
have without a flexibility for
something else to come along.

309
00:19:16,205 --> 00:19:16,985
That's suffering.

310
00:19:17,045 --> 00:19:20,855
We create it's minor and it
may be luxuriously suffering.

311
00:19:20,855 --> 00:19:26,435
It may be all sorts of things, but
it's still suffering because we have
this fear of losing what we've gained.

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00:19:26,855 --> 00:19:30,905
Matt: Well, I'm following
everything and I'm jumping from
Lily pad to Lily pad with you here.

313
00:19:30,935 --> 00:19:35,225
And I'm trying to figure out,
you know, how I'm suffering
with some of the luxuries.

314
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I don't want to lose.

315
00:19:36,504 --> 00:19:36,895
Right.

316
00:19:37,135 --> 00:19:42,804
Uh, and, uh, but I don't have all the,
you know, the, the heavy artillery
and security system to keep them here.

317
00:19:42,804 --> 00:19:50,245
So part of me wants to have a divergent
thought here, but I'm not sure how to
approach it because I feel, uh, right
now that everything you've shared,

318
00:19:50,455 --> 00:19:56,605
I feel like if love is what you're
seeking, are you telling me that
that is something that we can lose?

319
00:19:56,695 --> 00:19:59,514
And that is something that, because
we're seeking love, we're suffering.

320
00:20:00,170 --> 00:20:00,510
I

321
00:20:00,530 --> 00:20:05,030
Les: think that I think it's a, it's
more long and, and I'm thinking in an
extreme extremist, because a lot of times,

322
00:20:05,030 --> 00:20:07,910
the only way to really capture the full
essence of something is in extremes.

323
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:15,920
If I have a stranglehold on my wife and
I won't let her out of my sight and I
have to be writer side at all times,
and I want her, wherever I go, is that.

324
00:20:16,604 --> 00:20:25,635
Is that meaning if I, if I'm, if I'm so
bent on being it, being secure in my, my
relationship with my wife, that I have to
hold onto it, is that love or is it loving

325
00:20:25,635 --> 00:20:33,314
when I can be trusting and I can let that
go and I can let my wife be who she is
and explore life on her terms and not have

326
00:20:33,314 --> 00:20:39,615
to see eye to eye on every single thing
that's going on in my world, but still be
able to embrace her and love her despite

327
00:20:39,615 --> 00:20:45,885
our differences, or maybe because of our
differences and allow that to flourish,
because that is what true relationship.

328
00:20:46,435 --> 00:20:51,505
We experienced this in front row
dads, you know, it's this idea
of the ability to the, the yes.

329
00:20:51,505 --> 00:20:56,635
And it's our ability to sit
with one another, despite our
differences and love one another.

330
00:20:56,755 --> 00:21:06,415
Now, imagine if we started to raise
up I ideas or ideologies around front
row dads that says, it looks like
this, and it has to be this way.

331
00:21:06,475 --> 00:21:12,475
The moment that we start doing that
is the moment that we actually start
pushing people out because they're not
conforming to the way that we want it to.

332
00:21:12,945 --> 00:21:17,774
And, or we're in, we're starting
to huddle around certain
ideals of what it looks like.

333
00:21:17,805 --> 00:21:25,995
And we're always trying to create boxes
around that so that we can find ways
to protect the identity that we're
raising up within that as the way of

334
00:21:26,055 --> 00:21:33,825
being, and that's not free, that's
not loving, it's loving is, is the
idea that when it rains, it rains on
the good and it rains on the evil.

335
00:21:34,274 --> 00:21:41,985
Matt: So let me reign it back in here
to summarize what I've just feel that
I've put some dots together here, uh,
with your mentality of being curious.

336
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,410
And being open to what's happening
next and the whatever's coming yes.

337
00:21:46,410 --> 00:21:48,450
And be inclusive with that.

338
00:21:48,690 --> 00:21:53,610
Love can take any form, you know,
and I, I appreciate the way that
you've made that distinction for us.

339
00:21:53,610 --> 00:21:55,950
Cause love to look this way
to some person over here.

340
00:21:55,950 --> 00:22:02,910
It could be, uh, you know, being very
close and, and having that the, the
day by day connection where you are
texting each other back and forth all

341
00:22:02,910 --> 00:22:09,210
the time, it can be very tight like
that, or it can be very open and what
you would, what you would call it,
trusting where we don't need to do that.

342
00:22:09,210 --> 00:22:10,050
It can be any way.

343
00:22:10,850 --> 00:22:11,419
For anyone.

344
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:12,710
So it's it's curiosity.

345
00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:13,100
It's yes.

346
00:22:14,010 --> 00:22:20,730
Les: So just to differentiate a little bit
on that is that I think that the idea of
when, when we have to hold onto something

347
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:26,640
and we have to place our identity in
it, and it actually keeps someone else
from being free to be who they are.

348
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:28,830
I wouldn't call that
the definition of love.

349
00:22:29,070 --> 00:22:32,400
In fact, that's what we would call
abuse and most, most relationship.

350
00:22:32,965 --> 00:22:40,765
When we, when it's now the texting back
and forth and the, you know, the intimacy
that, that, that we can create and how
that plays out is, is totally free.

351
00:22:40,855 --> 00:22:46,165
But it's when we start having a
stranglehold on something, when we
start trying to control the behaviors

352
00:22:46,165 --> 00:22:49,585
and the, and the, and the way that
somebody else does and lives this life.

353
00:22:50,445 --> 00:22:55,095
That we, it gets on the edge of first
and foremost, not loving ourselves
because we're not able to, we're

354
00:22:55,095 --> 00:23:01,245
not able to love ourselves or see
ourselves outside of something that
exists outside of us, that person.

355
00:23:01,365 --> 00:23:07,275
And it keeps us from truly expressing
that fullness of what it means to, to be.

356
00:23:07,965 --> 00:23:10,935
Forgiveness caring for
one another in compassion.

357
00:23:11,115 --> 00:23:16,605
And I think we just have to be careful
in our world of, and this is why we have
such a split in our world right now,

358
00:23:16,605 --> 00:23:23,025
Matt, is that, you know, we, we have
this idea that it has to be, everything
has to be completely right or wrong.

359
00:23:23,355 --> 00:23:25,605
And then everybody has their
definition of what that looks like.

360
00:23:26,135 --> 00:23:28,865
And that's not very loving
and we can see that play out.

361
00:23:28,865 --> 00:23:37,085
And the way things happened on January
6th of what was it, 20, which happens to
be my birthday, by the way, it's like a
sad thing that I got on your birthday.

362
00:23:37,175 --> 00:23:44,555
But you know what, at the Capitol where,
where people are raising up and ready
to go and take over, you know, something

363
00:23:44,555 --> 00:23:48,365
about that, that's built on ideologies
belief systems as though we know.

364
00:23:48,949 --> 00:23:54,740
And there's just this level, there's this
place in our world where we, we begin
to have to understand that we don't know

365
00:23:54,740 --> 00:23:57,710
everything and we don't have all the
answers and that it's going to be messy.

366
00:23:57,710 --> 00:23:59,899
And my marriage is going
to have ups and downs.

367
00:23:59,899 --> 00:24:02,840
We're going to fight and then we need to
forgive and then we need to have intimacy.

368
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,330
And then we need to, you know,
and we have this cycle of things.

369
00:24:05,330 --> 00:24:07,490
And over time that
begins to that's freedom.

370
00:24:07,550 --> 00:24:09,790
It's the freedom for it to go
to all the different places.

371
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,179
It needs to go in order for it
to continue to grow and be, and,
and be what it truly needs to be.

372
00:24:14,570 --> 00:24:15,830
I mean, I think you would
probably agree with.

373
00:24:16,450 --> 00:24:18,129
I want my wife to be happy.

374
00:24:18,310 --> 00:24:24,970
And if I ever am in the reason why
she is not truly able to find joy
in this world, and I am limiting

375
00:24:24,970 --> 00:24:28,990
her in any way, at least for me, I
want, I want her to be free from me.

376
00:24:29,350 --> 00:24:31,120
I want her to be free to be able to leave.

377
00:24:31,389 --> 00:24:34,060
And it's in that where the
excitement and joy of life comes.

378
00:24:34,060 --> 00:24:35,200
That's the rollercoaster ride.

379
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,629
It's the, I don't know if this
is going to be able to be.

380
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,530
It's the uncertainty of is this,
is this gonna go off the rails?

381
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,600
That's where true life happens.

382
00:24:43,629 --> 00:24:47,320
It's in that tension between the,
what, you know, the good and the bad.

383
00:24:47,919 --> 00:24:52,990
Matt: So in that tension between
the good and the bad, where love
can happen, where joy or sadness can

384
00:24:52,990 --> 00:24:57,790
happen, what you are sharing in your
message overall, is that in that space?

385
00:24:58,370 --> 00:24:59,420
Of that duality.

386
00:24:59,630 --> 00:25:00,740
That's where life is.

387
00:25:00,770 --> 00:25:02,960
That's where the true joy can be found.

388
00:25:03,050 --> 00:25:04,190
And there's going to be sadness too.

389
00:25:04,190 --> 00:25:08,510
You're going to have both, there's no
middle ground that we should be seeking.

390
00:25:08,510 --> 00:25:12,020
We should be able to accept that
joy or that sadness and live

391
00:25:12,020 --> 00:25:12,590
Les: life with love.

392
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,330
And this is where the challenge
comes in seeking the middle ground is
probably where or the overlap of life.

393
00:25:17,570 --> 00:25:23,060
How can we fall into this place of
recognizing the, the, I don't knows
instead of making bold claims of

394
00:25:23,060 --> 00:25:26,480
everything we think we know, you know,
I, man, I, you know, I'm trying to.

395
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:27,960
Practical example.

396
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:35,760
And yet it gets really hairy, which is
part of the challenge of being that I've
faced is that most of the time I want to
deal with the heavy, heavy, hard hitting.

397
00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:37,380
Matt: It sounds like it.

398
00:25:37,530 --> 00:25:38,460
Cause you've gone pretty deep.

399
00:25:38,790 --> 00:25:40,200
Les: Yeah, no, I mean, I do.

400
00:25:40,290 --> 00:25:43,680
I've told you, I don't, I don't, I don't
know how to swim in shallow waters.

401
00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:45,960
I really have struggled with that.

402
00:25:46,710 --> 00:25:48,840
Matt: Well, let's, let's bring
it back to something you shared.

403
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,540
That was very, I mean, potential for
a great emotion in the very beginning.

404
00:25:51,540 --> 00:25:55,230
I mean, it kind of got me welled up
thinking about the first thing that
came out of your mouth earlier was

405
00:25:55,230 --> 00:25:59,970
you were talking about this challenge
of finding out your wife has cancer
and you know, that's something that.

406
00:26:00,675 --> 00:26:01,875
Now we'd never talked about before.

407
00:26:01,875 --> 00:26:04,695
I'd love to, if you're comfortable with
it, I'd love to kind of dive into that.

408
00:26:04,784 --> 00:26:06,495
What are we facing right now with that?

409
00:26:06,495 --> 00:26:09,014
What's the challenge and what's,
what's it teaching an analysts

410
00:26:09,254 --> 00:26:16,095
Les: on the one hand, I have to
recognize that, you know, it's not
that the cancer is not something
I'm personally struggling with.

411
00:26:16,095 --> 00:26:17,985
And so when I say this
and I'm talking about.

412
00:26:18,820 --> 00:26:23,680
There are some very real emotions
that she may not be in the same
place as I am or, and vice versa.

413
00:26:23,710 --> 00:26:24,670
She's got challenges.

414
00:26:24,670 --> 00:26:27,580
And yet she's got some comforts
around that, that I don't have.

415
00:26:27,580 --> 00:26:32,620
So, you know, my, my way of dealing with
this is, is honestly to just be listening.

416
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,720
And I know that she has
struggled deeply with this.

417
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,330
And thankfully, this is
not a death sentence.

418
00:26:37,330 --> 00:26:38,680
This is chronic myeloid.

419
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,510
Leukemia is something
that is very treatable.

420
00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:42,340
It's a bone marrow situation where.

421
00:26:42,879 --> 00:26:45,040
Can make all sorts of pain
and inflammation occur.

422
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:46,810
And so she's just been in a lot of pain.

423
00:26:46,810 --> 00:26:49,420
And this is after in
2016, having had a stroke.

424
00:26:49,420 --> 00:26:51,790
And so she's no, we are together.

425
00:26:51,790 --> 00:26:54,040
We are no strangers to suffering.

426
00:26:54,220 --> 00:27:00,520
She has had her share of the one who's
dealt with it mostly physically, and which
has created emotional traumas as well.

427
00:27:01,150 --> 00:27:03,580
But when it comes to how
this has played out is.

428
00:27:04,504 --> 00:27:09,095
Which is a funny thing to say as
well after the stroke we saw what
the, what kind of teacher it was.

429
00:27:09,185 --> 00:27:14,735
We saw how life's curriculum
transition for us into what
is, what is life teaching us?

430
00:27:14,855 --> 00:27:16,205
And it drew us closer.

431
00:27:16,295 --> 00:27:20,885
It's helped her appreciate the, um,
the goodness of life in ways that.

432
00:27:21,425 --> 00:27:26,735
I think a lot of people miss when
they, when everything seems to be easy,
when everything physically seems to be

433
00:27:26,735 --> 00:27:31,085
going well, she is incredibly driven
by health herself and always has been.

434
00:27:31,085 --> 00:27:36,455
And I mean, I remember when she woke up
from the stroke, for example, the first
words out of her mouth, and I didn't
know what I was going to wake up to.

435
00:27:36,455 --> 00:27:38,885
What was the question of, what did I do?

436
00:27:39,885 --> 00:27:42,915
She had a stroke and her first
questions are, what did I do wrong?

437
00:27:43,034 --> 00:27:48,225
And I think that we live in a world where
there's this perception that we have to
do all these things particularly, right.

438
00:27:48,435 --> 00:27:51,284
And that there's some particular
right way to live life.

439
00:27:51,405 --> 00:27:56,415
And that when we experience something
that is like suffering or consequences
or crisis, that we have done something

440
00:27:56,415 --> 00:28:02,325
wrong rather than just understanding
that life, life just has kind of got
its own life has got its own life.

441
00:28:05,895 --> 00:28:07,695
Matt: When she asks you that question, I

442
00:28:07,695 --> 00:28:14,175
Les: just, I just got up and hugged her
and was just thrilled to hear her voice
because I literally didn't know what I was
going to wake up to that, that morning.

443
00:28:14,175 --> 00:28:15,225
It was like five in the morning.

444
00:28:15,495 --> 00:28:17,774
And so I think there was
just an appreciation.

445
00:28:17,774 --> 00:28:20,145
So I just told her, man,
you did nothing wrong.

446
00:28:20,175 --> 00:28:23,985
You have no idea why this is occurred
and we're going to figure it out and
we're going to work through this.

447
00:28:23,985 --> 00:28:25,965
And we did, and it was a journey.

448
00:28:25,965 --> 00:28:31,544
And it's the same thing now, you
know, so there's a lot of, a lot
of questions about what's the
right path for treating this kid.

449
00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:34,920
And there is no right path and
you can always change your path.

450
00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:37,290
You can always decide to do a
different type of treatment.

451
00:28:37,410 --> 00:28:44,670
And, and so she wants to, I
think, but that comes, that's
all wrapped up in a fear of life
ending that's end of suffering.

452
00:28:44,850 --> 00:28:47,790
And there's this stigma of
suffering and this stigma.

453
00:28:48,420 --> 00:28:51,810
Prices and things that happen in
our world that our news makes.

454
00:28:51,810 --> 00:28:58,050
So, I mean, really think about how
much the media makes such a big deal
out of all the stuff that is happening

455
00:28:58,050 --> 00:29:02,970
in our world to the nth degree,
because for the sake of entertainment,
but it creates fear within us.

456
00:29:03,030 --> 00:29:04,560
And it's fear of dying.

457
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:10,500
It's fear of sickness, it's fear
of suffering and all these things,
rather than us being able to explore

458
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:12,870
those things, they tell us what
we're supposed to believe about them.

459
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:14,370
They tell us what the
outcomes are supposed.

460
00:29:14,935 --> 00:29:22,675
And when you're in it, though, you have
to start shutting those voices off and
you have to start asking for and seeking
truth about what does this really mean?

461
00:29:22,855 --> 00:29:24,355
You know, did I do something wrong?

462
00:29:24,445 --> 00:29:26,425
Is there something more
to this that's going on?

463
00:29:26,425 --> 00:29:28,705
Is there something about this
that there's a lesson in?

464
00:29:28,825 --> 00:29:32,125
And so we've just been seeking those
lessons and they're, they're not easy.

465
00:29:32,125 --> 00:29:36,595
And some days, you know, it's miserable
and other days it's, it's incredible.

466
00:29:36,595 --> 00:29:38,695
Last night had an
incredible joyful moment.

467
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:45,340
In terms of just talking about how,
how, like every single experience
my, your health and my health

468
00:29:45,550 --> 00:29:49,870
represent health for her and, and her
sickness represents our own sickness.

469
00:29:49,870 --> 00:29:56,920
When we start to get outside of our
individual selves, when we stop, we
stop being so narrowly focused on
making sure I do every single thing.

470
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:57,220
Right.

471
00:29:57,919 --> 00:30:02,060
That I get to do no matter what,
at all costs I succeed, I will win.

472
00:30:02,060 --> 00:30:02,540
I will.

473
00:30:02,570 --> 00:30:11,179
All the things that we sometimes get
focused on in the west that very masculine
energy, it loses sight of the nurturing
side of the very feminine energy.

474
00:30:11,209 --> 00:30:12,979
And we need both of those things.

475
00:30:13,070 --> 00:30:16,090
And so she represents for
us that nurturing side.

476
00:30:16,795 --> 00:30:24,505
Yeah, I am now living into the nurturing
for her caring for, and that's not
my gift, but I get to exercise that,
which makes me a more whole human.

477
00:30:24,775 --> 00:30:29,215
And in that moment, when I'm healthy,
she's able to highlight that and
say, I am so grateful for you and

478
00:30:29,215 --> 00:30:33,145
how you are currently expressing
your health and your journey.

479
00:30:33,145 --> 00:30:38,655
And it's in that full picture that
she doesn't feel alone, that she
feels like she's being supported and

480
00:30:38,655 --> 00:30:42,115
that she feels, and I feel supported
because I get to support her and him.

481
00:30:42,895 --> 00:30:53,155
It's that expression of, of our oneness
as, as humans, that when we can begin
to start unifying around the collective
situation, then we grow into a more

482
00:30:53,155 --> 00:31:01,945
whole human being and a whole oneness,
something beyond human being is where we
start to begin to live life as a part of
creation and experience all joys of it.

483
00:31:08,365 --> 00:31:12,045
Matt: Today's sponsor of the eternal
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484
00:31:13,845 --> 00:31:15,645
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485
00:31:16,095 --> 00:31:16,905
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486
00:31:16,995 --> 00:31:18,345
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487
00:31:18,465 --> 00:31:24,645
It then goes to a good handshake, not
a limb fish, not the death flaw grip.

488
00:31:25,125 --> 00:31:31,035
A good firm handshake with
eye contact is a great way to
make a great first impression.

489
00:31:31,485 --> 00:31:33,015
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490
00:31:33,495 --> 00:31:34,365
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491
00:31:34,965 --> 00:31:37,125
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eternal optimist bond.

492
00:31:38,725 --> 00:31:40,945
Well less, you've gone, uh, as expected.

493
00:31:41,065 --> 00:31:42,025
You've gotten super deep.

494
00:31:42,025 --> 00:31:44,395
I think we're way down here
in the Mariana's trench.

495
00:31:44,785 --> 00:31:47,155
We're in the deepest waters
known to humankind right now.

496
00:31:47,215 --> 00:31:48,715
Uh, I'd love to bring it back up.

497
00:31:48,745 --> 00:31:52,675
Let's let's come back up to,
uh, to, to the level just a
little bit below the water.

498
00:31:52,675 --> 00:31:59,065
And I love to ask you about, as you're
finding all these challenges with all your
wife's health, you said she had a stroke,

499
00:31:59,245 --> 00:32:05,075
uh, and now recently the cancer, how are
you responding, reacting, leading as.

500
00:32:05,970 --> 00:32:11,970
And this time, I mean, how do you keep
up, you know, the face or the attitude
when it comes to parenting your fortunate?

501
00:32:12,735 --> 00:32:13,425
Les: I'm real.

502
00:32:14,595 --> 00:32:16,425
I mean, when it sucks, it sucks.

503
00:32:16,485 --> 00:32:24,975
And when I make mistakes as a result
of being caught up in my own emotion
or my own feelings, it's an opportunity
for me to, to ask for forgiveness.

504
00:32:25,004 --> 00:32:33,915
And I, I, I really do believe that we
exist for the purposes of creating a
world together, where we have a saying
that we exist to take the paintbrush of.

505
00:32:34,595 --> 00:32:43,024
Colors of chaos and mixing them on
the pallet of life for the purpose
of creating the masterpiece,
P E a C E that we, we desire.

506
00:32:43,235 --> 00:32:49,235
And it's that essence of love
and forgiveness that creates
that compassionate opportunity.

507
00:32:49,235 --> 00:32:52,955
And the chaos is like the chaos is
the colors is a real key to this.

508
00:32:53,254 --> 00:32:57,784
When we are having those cattle
moments, it's an opportunity
for us to make something out of.

509
00:32:58,504 --> 00:32:59,435
I get stuck in it.

510
00:32:59,435 --> 00:33:06,274
And I drown in the pink colors,
but to really be able to find ways
to create something new out of it,
this is what nature does, right?

511
00:33:06,304 --> 00:33:12,215
It's like a seed falls from a
tree and dies so that it can
then create something else.

512
00:33:12,365 --> 00:33:15,395
Another tree and fire burns up things.

513
00:33:15,455 --> 00:33:19,985
And then in its place, it is the thing,
the fertilizer for the next thing to grow.

514
00:33:20,135 --> 00:33:22,115
And that's the that's what is nature.

515
00:33:22,354 --> 00:33:24,334
And we have within us, we have that with.

516
00:33:25,139 --> 00:33:27,810
Matt: I want to highlight something
you just shared here for our audience.

517
00:33:27,870 --> 00:33:31,739
And I took a note here when we're
having chaos, make something of it.

518
00:33:32,070 --> 00:33:32,909
Uh, I love that.

519
00:33:32,909 --> 00:33:34,379
I think that that's, that's amazing.

520
00:33:34,530 --> 00:33:39,360
So whenever things are getting thrown at
you a hundred miles an hour and they're
curve balls, and it's, it's the most

521
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:44,580
challenging thing, or it's the easiest
thing, whatever it is, it's thrown at
you, whatever chaos comes your way, make

522
00:33:44,580 --> 00:33:44,820
Les: something.

523
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:46,020
And, and I'll.

524
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:54,000
And so I'm going to get real about myself
right now, because I think that that's
an important piece for me to be honest
with is that I do speak very esoteric.

525
00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:00,210
Sometimes I, I get it all the time
and it's honestly, one of the things
that has created this, the deepest
challenge and struggle for me.

526
00:34:00,390 --> 00:34:01,980
I'm not saying it in a special way.

527
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,030
I I've asked.

528
00:34:03,150 --> 00:34:03,680
I've been.

529
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:09,930
God and source or whatever, to
remove the way that I think about
life and just make it simple.

530
00:34:09,930 --> 00:34:15,900
Like, let me just be a white
48 year old middle-class male
Republican or, or liberal.

531
00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:16,350
I don't care.

532
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:17,400
It would go either direction.

533
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:21,720
Just, just make it simple for me so
that I can just cling to something
and, and it just doesn't work.

534
00:34:22,375 --> 00:34:25,435
And it puts me in a place
where I feel I have felt alone.

535
00:34:25,554 --> 00:34:32,275
It is, it has created trauma from me
from a perspective of being in business
with powerful men and women to, uh, being

536
00:34:32,275 --> 00:34:38,514
someone who, who really wants to push
the limits of love and, and open the
doors to, to everyone to just be loved.

537
00:34:38,665 --> 00:34:39,775
And I have often felt like.

538
00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:41,470
Very alone and all that.

539
00:34:41,620 --> 00:34:45,490
And, uh, some of my own traumas
and the challenges that I
faced, even with my wife.

540
00:34:45,490 --> 00:34:50,860
I mean, sometimes, you know, the way
I see the world drives her insane
because of the fact that everything is.

541
00:34:50,860 --> 00:34:53,620
So let me tell you a story and,
you know, blah, blah, blah.

542
00:34:53,650 --> 00:34:58,270
I mean, I am learning to embrace this side
of me in a way that has been challenging.

543
00:34:58,875 --> 00:35:04,755
I think that there are a ton of people
in our world who desire to be able to
start to think outside of the boxes that

544
00:35:04,755 --> 00:35:08,595
they've been put in and the core of my
being, that's what I want so desperately.

545
00:35:08,685 --> 00:35:10,155
And yet I also am afraid.

546
00:35:10,395 --> 00:35:16,425
I'm afraid of continually standing
outside, looking in on people who
seemingly are happy and dressed, right.

547
00:35:16,425 --> 00:35:19,245
And look right and successful
and, and all these things.

548
00:35:19,245 --> 00:35:21,255
And I'm afraid that I can't
make a living doing it.

549
00:35:21,285 --> 00:35:24,045
And I'm afraid that all, like all
those things still play out in my own.

550
00:35:24,535 --> 00:35:26,694
I mean, th this is the
reason that I exist.

551
00:35:26,785 --> 00:35:28,045
I exist for the purpose.

552
00:35:28,045 --> 00:35:32,305
I believe of just of, of showing people
that they can be free to be who they are.

553
00:35:32,485 --> 00:35:37,345
And that means that the most
limiting belief that someone
may have, it is true for them.

554
00:35:37,555 --> 00:35:38,785
And it is true for me too.

555
00:35:38,875 --> 00:35:41,325
And others have, have maybe
seen a bigger picture.

556
00:35:42,050 --> 00:35:48,350
That truth or that belief that some
of us have, uh, about whatever it is,
is just a small piece of the picture.

557
00:35:48,620 --> 00:35:53,090
I just want to be able to help people
expand that picture in such a way
that they're starting to see more

558
00:35:53,090 --> 00:35:57,890
of life experience, more joy, not
to get caught in the lines of dogma.

559
00:35:57,890 --> 00:36:06,800
That simply say, if you are suffering,
if you are poor, if you are broken,
you know, if something's going on
with you, you've done something wrong.

560
00:36:07,415 --> 00:36:12,995
I want to help people to see the
chaos that they're feeling and help
them establish ways of creating

561
00:36:13,085 --> 00:36:18,485
the life that they want from that,
because that is so valid and so
important for all of our stories.

562
00:36:18,815 --> 00:36:19,775
Matt: You want to help them.

563
00:36:19,925 --> 00:36:22,205
You exist to show people they can be free.

564
00:36:22,205 --> 00:36:25,445
You want to help them see
that they can be free of this.

565
00:36:25,445 --> 00:36:28,325
They can be in chaos and
be free of those shacks.

566
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,320
What are you doing yourself
to free yourself from this?

567
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,540
Cause it seems like something that you
definitely struggled with yourself.

568
00:36:33,570 --> 00:36:34,710
How are you freeing yourself?

569
00:36:34,740 --> 00:36:37,830
Or what's the process you're using
to work on freeing yourself less?

570
00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:40,800
Les: Well, curiosity continues
to be my key for one.

571
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:47,820
It is working with people and coaches
and other plant-based substances
that I've done in the past.

572
00:36:48,030 --> 00:36:52,200
I'm just willing to go down any path that
is available that is represented by love.

573
00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:54,390
Like the only we'll call it law.

574
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,920
Dogma, if you will, is that
it has to, it, it has to be.

575
00:36:58,660 --> 00:37:05,770
It has to be with an intent of, of
something bigger than myself and,
and that, so if I, if I'm working
with someone, I want to know that

576
00:37:05,770 --> 00:37:10,629
they are someone who's not just, I'm
not just hiring them to fill their
pocketbooks, but that they are, they

577
00:37:10,629 --> 00:37:15,460
recognize that they are in this for
the greater good of all, when I can
work with more people like that.

578
00:37:15,460 --> 00:37:18,609
And I can start to listen
to other people's stories.

579
00:37:19,270 --> 00:37:21,250
Th then literally the name
of my company is epic fusion.

580
00:37:21,339 --> 00:37:23,350
It's where our stories
become fused together.

581
00:37:23,350 --> 00:37:28,299
And when stories are fused together,
when my suffering is fused with
your suffering, my suffering

582
00:37:28,299 --> 00:37:32,890
feels lighter and energetically,
it puts off light, literal light.

583
00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:38,230
It helps other people begin to
see their story as valid and good
as a part of the greater story.

584
00:37:38,319 --> 00:37:43,000
And so when we can do that with
one another and what I do that
for myself, it's knowing you.

585
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,820
It's why I'm a part of front row dads,
because when I'm with you guys, All of
the things that I've struggled with,

586
00:37:47,850 --> 00:37:53,520
where I'm at with my kids and being about
to be an empty nester, it's in service
to the greater good of front row dads.

587
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:59,580
It's allowing me to help other dads
realize that this thing that they feel
so chaotic about is an opportunity for

588
00:37:59,580 --> 00:38:05,640
them, them to find incredible joy and
love and grow closer to their kids rather
than to start to create rules that try

589
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:11,160
to manipulate and control the situation
for their own, for them to feel like,
oh, look, my kids are upstanding since.

590
00:38:11,930 --> 00:38:12,380
No man.

591
00:38:12,380 --> 00:38:14,060
It's like, let's get this shit messy.

592
00:38:14,150 --> 00:38:16,160
Let's understand that life is just messy.

593
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:17,900
And it's fun in that, that state.

594
00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:27,230
I mean, there's a reason why we do
things like the tough Mudder and run hard
races and do stuff that you know, where
we get to just be playful and be kids.

595
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,049
Cause that's where, that's where
the essence of life is for us.

596
00:38:30,794 --> 00:38:31,185
Matt: Yes.

597
00:38:31,274 --> 00:38:37,694
It feels like the environment you're
creating or the environment you seek
create, or be a part of with epic fusion
with front row dads, with anything you

598
00:38:37,694 --> 00:38:46,604
were a part of is an environment where,
uh, curiosity is championed, uh, where
we can come together and lay off any
shackles of need to be a certain way.

599
00:38:46,604 --> 00:38:47,475
Look a certain way.

600
00:38:48,740 --> 00:38:52,340
Open curious towards some
vision, some purpose.

601
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,410
And if the purpose is say, it's front row
dads or the purposes, you know how you
serve people through epic fusion, it's

602
00:38:57,590 --> 00:39:01,160
when we're in alignment and purpose and
we're open and curious, we can find love.

603
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:01,940
We can find,

604
00:39:02,540 --> 00:39:06,320
Les: yeah, it's my commitment is to
be transparent in that endeavor is.

605
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:14,120
It is to own the fact that I am esoteric
and be proud of the fact that I bring
that to the table while at the same
time being completely transparent about

606
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:21,620
the fact that I'm struggling to do it,
that it's messy, that I'm, I have my
own fears, but the way that I deal with
my fears is that I go head into them.

607
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,930
You know, we're going into a,
for a dad's event next week.

608
00:39:23,930 --> 00:39:24,230
Right.

609
00:39:24,290 --> 00:39:26,330
And I'm already setting the intention.

610
00:39:26,570 --> 00:39:30,650
I mean, all the guys will not
appreciate this if I literally do
this, but to be completely naked.

611
00:39:31,540 --> 00:39:32,410
Yeah, man.

612
00:39:32,589 --> 00:39:41,020
My life is a struggle right now
to allow for the fact not to not
to pretend like I am some sort
of trauma free, you know, hero.

613
00:39:41,049 --> 00:39:48,759
That's going to show up and save the day
of anybody or what, but no, it's just
that I'm going to contribute real life
experiences to the fullness of the group

614
00:39:48,759 --> 00:39:54,910
that they're also going to be willing to
do the same when the tendency is, as you
know, we, it's a powerful group of men.

615
00:39:55,060 --> 00:39:56,500
So the tendency or the.

616
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:04,069
The temptation I should say is to put
on a facade, to put on a mask that
allows a certain side of me to be seen

617
00:40:04,069 --> 00:40:09,649
so that others may look up to me or
think of me a certain way so that I
can achieve some goal or some outcome

618
00:40:09,649 --> 00:40:15,200
in my life that I think is important
to me, the things that I'm clinging
to, I want to go out like this.

619
00:40:15,350 --> 00:40:17,569
I want to be open for
my ego to be challenged.

620
00:40:17,690 --> 00:40:20,410
I want to be open for my
bullshit to be called.

621
00:40:21,075 --> 00:40:29,775
I want to be, because I think it's, then
that I, I can truly experience, love,
both giving it and receiving it because
there's nothing that you will ever find.

622
00:40:29,775 --> 00:40:31,305
You'll you're never going
to be able to look at me.

623
00:40:31,305 --> 00:40:36,825
And when I run for president one day,
that's not going to happen and pull
out a bunch of stuff and say, oh yeah,

624
00:40:36,825 --> 00:40:41,595
well, you did this when you were, and
you did this and you did this, I'm
going to be like, I've always said that.

625
00:40:42,339 --> 00:40:43,210
That's always been there.

626
00:40:43,270 --> 00:40:44,950
There's never been a moment
that it hasn't been there.

627
00:40:45,490 --> 00:40:46,420
What else do you want to say?

628
00:40:46,450 --> 00:40:48,160
I'm, I'm owning my stuff.

629
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:48,880
What are you hiding?

630
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,650
You know, that you feel like
you need to point it out.

631
00:40:50,740 --> 00:40:53,770
So that, that is where
I want to be in my life.

632
00:40:53,799 --> 00:40:56,290
Not just with throw dads, but
in every aspect of my life.

633
00:40:56,319 --> 00:40:58,930
And my suffering comes when I
don't, when I'm not true to.

634
00:40:59,535 --> 00:41:02,595
My suffering comes when I start to hold
onto the things that I tried to protect

635
00:41:02,595 --> 00:41:03,165
Matt: myself with.

636
00:41:03,404 --> 00:41:09,585
What I'm hearing is if the future vision,
what you're creating in your life, what
you seek to create in the lives of others

637
00:41:09,855 --> 00:41:16,154
is a place where they go ahead into their
fears with openness, with curiosity,
and laid on the line and play all in a.

638
00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:19,890
When they do that, they have
the chance to be authentic.

639
00:41:19,890 --> 00:41:21,120
They have a chance to find love.

640
00:41:21,420 --> 00:41:25,800
And that is where, you know, this
duality, this joy, the sadness,
you know, the left, right?

641
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,520
Whatever, whatever the duality
is, that's where they can
see that they can embrace it.

642
00:41:29,610 --> 00:41:31,740
They can learn to love through it.

643
00:41:31,860 --> 00:41:37,440
Oh, and a quick, a service
announcement front row, dads
retreats are not naked retreats.

644
00:41:37,470 --> 00:41:41,040
Just want you to know that everyone
out there, you know, but back to it
is that we are creating an environment

645
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,760
where, uh, openness curiosity that
can help us get to a place of.

646
00:41:45,435 --> 00:41:51,075
And that's how you deal head on
with challenges and fears, uh, is
openness, curiosity and play all

647
00:41:51,075 --> 00:41:51,225
Les: in.

648
00:41:51,555 --> 00:41:52,125
Yes.

649
00:41:52,214 --> 00:41:58,245
There's a statement that I heard recently
that if you can name the problem,
you already understand the solution.

650
00:41:58,965 --> 00:42:05,265
And I think that that's a real key to
this is that when, when I CA when I go
around and I hide my problem and I don't

651
00:42:05,265 --> 00:42:12,075
name it out loud, I'm actually denying
any opportunity for myself to succeed
at finding a new way to approach it.

652
00:42:12,225 --> 00:42:14,384
I actually am limiting my ability.

653
00:42:14,910 --> 00:42:16,680
To come to new outcomes in this world.

654
00:42:16,980 --> 00:42:25,440
So I think that's a, I think that's a
really important key for any of us that
are out there trying to make it in this
life and, and find ways to be successful.

655
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,580
And because then we start to uncover
other ideas about what success looks like.

656
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:37,710
It becomes more of that relational
aspect because it really literally, it's
only about me and you and other people
that we surround ourselves with it.

657
00:42:37,740 --> 00:42:40,440
That is the only way we actually
understand our existing.

658
00:42:41,065 --> 00:42:47,485
Th there is no existence without
the rest and until we can be free
to be that, then there's, there's
no way for us to truly appreciate.

659
00:42:48,705 --> 00:42:48,855
Well,

660
00:42:48,855 --> 00:42:51,425
Matt: let's name a problem, then
let's do one quick exercise.

661
00:42:51,465 --> 00:42:51,915
Then we'll move.

662
00:42:51,975 --> 00:42:53,325
We'll wrap up with our last question.

663
00:42:53,325 --> 00:42:56,085
If you can name the problem,
you can understand the solution.

664
00:42:56,115 --> 00:43:03,105
And let's say the problem for
example is I'm a 48 year old, uh,
husband with several children.

665
00:43:03,105 --> 00:43:10,125
And I have a wife who's been
diagnosed with cancer, uh,
recently in that, whatever that
is, that that's, if that's the.

666
00:43:10,884 --> 00:43:11,154
Right.

667
00:43:11,154 --> 00:43:15,714
Is these life things, these
challenges then help me
understand what's the solution.

668
00:43:16,045 --> 00:43:18,805
Les: So in that moment,
the solution comes down to.

669
00:43:19,770 --> 00:43:25,500
There is, there is nothing to fix
that, that in this cancer, that the,
that the opportunity here is for me

670
00:43:25,500 --> 00:43:31,290
to love my wife, unconditionally,
that healing comes when I can help
her understand she's not broken.

671
00:43:31,589 --> 00:43:38,819
That healing comes when it's not about
the cancer at all, but it's about
the state of her own resistance or.

672
00:43:39,910 --> 00:43:42,250
Welcoming of all that life has.

673
00:43:42,669 --> 00:43:45,790
And, and, and I don't do that by
telling her, like, that sucks.

674
00:43:45,790 --> 00:43:48,970
What I do that does not
go well, does not go

675
00:43:48,970 --> 00:43:50,290
Matt: with yeah, it doesn't work well.

676
00:43:50,290 --> 00:43:54,370
When we try to coach our, our spouses
a public service announcement.

677
00:43:54,370 --> 00:43:54,730
Yes.

678
00:43:55,060 --> 00:43:59,169
Les: I represent an unconditional
dedication and commitment to her.

679
00:43:59,169 --> 00:43:59,620
No matter what.

680
00:44:00,315 --> 00:44:04,575
When, when she is in the throws
of this is awful, life sucks.

681
00:44:04,575 --> 00:44:05,475
I am angry.

682
00:44:05,475 --> 00:44:06,735
I'm mad that I hurt.

683
00:44:06,765 --> 00:44:11,415
Um, and I just go in there and
I can hug her and I can love
on her and do so imperfectly.

684
00:44:11,655 --> 00:44:16,905
And then in return, when I have days
where I am like, this sucks that
this is what's going on with you.

685
00:44:16,905 --> 00:44:23,205
And I'm angry that we have to
spend our time and energy around
something that I just wish I
could take on for you or whatever.

686
00:44:23,265 --> 00:44:24,125
And she can look at me.

687
00:44:24,155 --> 00:44:24,735
She goes, it's going to be.

688
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,960
And we enjoy, I love you for feeling
that way, but it's going to be,
that is where the solution is.

689
00:44:29,990 --> 00:44:32,900
It's not in, it's not even in
seeing cancer as the problem.

690
00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:34,850
The problem is that I
see cancer as a problem.

691
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:35,990
That's the problem.

692
00:44:36,050 --> 00:44:38,630
The problem is that I began to
think that it shouldn't be here.

693
00:44:38,810 --> 00:44:42,740
And so when I can just begin to embrace
it, this is what it's supposed to be.

694
00:44:42,860 --> 00:44:47,330
And now how does, how does
love express itself in this
particular moment at his best?

695
00:44:47,420 --> 00:44:50,840
Then I become a part of something
that's the greater good for?

696
00:44:50,870 --> 00:44:53,090
Not just, it's not about
me because let's be honest.

697
00:44:53,090 --> 00:44:54,440
If I, why else would I not want.

698
00:44:55,215 --> 00:44:57,135
It's an inconvenience for me.

699
00:44:57,345 --> 00:45:01,905
I mean, more than it's an inconvenience
for me, because this is the only
way I know how to express my world.

700
00:45:02,115 --> 00:45:07,395
It interferes with, if she's not
feeling good because the cancer then
guess what my intimacy levels go down,

701
00:45:07,545 --> 00:45:11,505
her anger or her sadness goes up,
which means I have to be available.

702
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:13,730
And that interferes with my plans.

703
00:45:13,730 --> 00:45:18,860
And I like, but if I can just let
go of all that, if I can be open
ended about it and just allow it to

704
00:45:18,860 --> 00:45:23,630
be, and then be responsive in the
moment, then it begins to be something
that is rewarding for both of us.

705
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:28,790
And it allows us to now be experienced
love in a way that is whole.

706
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:34,190
And I can't, I can't say, you know,
when we talk about oneness in marriage,
one is in marriage is literally

707
00:45:34,190 --> 00:45:40,490
just that freedom to be able to
love one another unconditionally,
no matter what to forgive.

708
00:45:41,325 --> 00:45:45,375
And to allow the chaos to be the thing
from which we birth new creation from.

709
00:45:45,645 --> 00:45:48,345
And I will go back to that
probably for the rest of my life.

710
00:45:48,674 --> 00:45:51,495
It is such a key piece of, of life for us.

711
00:45:51,495 --> 00:45:54,465
And I have, we have moments
where we're like, yeah, I
wish we could get rid of that.

712
00:45:54,765 --> 00:45:59,325
But I think at the end of the day, with
everything that we learned in everything
that we come to and everything, that, all

713
00:45:59,325 --> 00:46:04,785
the things that we are growing in, like,
she's, she'll tell you, she would not
want to go back and not have a stroke.

714
00:46:04,965 --> 00:46:05,715
What would we have?

715
00:46:05,865 --> 00:46:07,725
What would we lose without.

716
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:13,220
What would we be missing in our
relationship with ourselves, with
our kids, with our, with the world.

717
00:46:13,980 --> 00:46:14,160
Yes,

718
00:46:15,299 --> 00:46:16,379
Matt: that brings up a great point.

719
00:46:16,470 --> 00:46:25,080
I mean, every challenge that happens is
an opportunity for wherever rat to evolve,
to be in the moment and be loving towards,
you know, our people in the moment.

720
00:46:25,109 --> 00:46:29,970
Uh, I love the thought here and I
believe it's one of the tenants of
modern psychology, you know, is this

721
00:46:29,970 --> 00:46:33,810
thing that, you know, learn to love and
appreciate the things that you don't want.

722
00:46:34,479 --> 00:46:38,200
And they'll have no more power
over you and you can be present
with them and it's okay.

723
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:42,549
And I love everything you've said, uh,
unless I'd love to a speaking of love.

724
00:46:42,729 --> 00:46:45,459
I love to build a bridge
here to our last question.

725
00:46:45,700 --> 00:46:52,359
And I know we could go on for
hours because we have before and we
already have today and let's go to
something very specific and tangible.

726
00:46:52,359 --> 00:46:54,189
The last question I love to ask.

727
00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:01,310
I like to give you a runway on
this one, just let me, maybe we
say, you know, take a minute or a
few, uh, to think about and share.

728
00:47:01,310 --> 00:47:07,970
If there were a piece of advice you
have to, someone out there, someone
who has a challenge that they have

729
00:47:07,970 --> 00:47:12,230
endured, they're overcoming someone
that wants to create an exciting future.

730
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:16,070
Any piece of advice, any one specific
piece of advice you'd love to offer.

731
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:16,520
We'd love

732
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:16,940
Les: to listen.

733
00:47:17,450 --> 00:47:19,400
I think there are a lot of
people who are really suffering.

734
00:47:20,205 --> 00:47:28,274
Today who feel very alone in that
suffering who feel isolated, who
feel like they're broken, like
there's something wrong with them.

735
00:47:28,455 --> 00:47:35,265
And, and it's a lot of it because
they they've got this idea of
what they are supposed to be, what
life is supposed to be for them.

736
00:47:35,535 --> 00:47:41,984
And I think the question becomes
is how can you see your suffering
in service to the rest of humanity?

737
00:47:42,194 --> 00:47:46,274
How can you begin to ask the questions
of what teaching does our entire.

738
00:47:47,010 --> 00:47:52,230
World need today that can be taught
as a result of what you were going
through with your own suffering.

739
00:47:52,410 --> 00:48:01,920
Because I think right there in that
space is the place where your suffering
becomes shared, not where you feel alone,
because it's easy to get sucked inward

740
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:08,040
on suffering and want to, you know,
become reclusive and, and cover up and
become dark in his, stay in the darkness.

741
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:09,540
But we need that suffering.

742
00:48:09,540 --> 00:48:12,900
We need you to share that story because
when we, when your story becomes.

743
00:48:13,509 --> 00:48:15,220
That's a part of my story.

744
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:22,569
Energetically creates light for the
rest of us to begin to find more,
hope, more joy, more life, and
we get to surround you with that.

745
00:48:22,569 --> 00:48:30,549
So, um, it's really about just how
can you integrate your suffering
into life so that we may be able
to see the light in you through it.

746
00:48:31,484 --> 00:48:31,964
Matt: Awesome.

747
00:48:32,055 --> 00:48:33,915
Uh, you did not disappoint today.

748
00:48:33,915 --> 00:48:44,775
You went so many places today, all back
to the theme of love and being able to
accept with, with an open heart and with
a curious mind, whatever's happening

749
00:48:44,775 --> 00:48:51,555
right now, not as a problem, but as an
opportunity to lean closer into the people
we care about and to serve the world.

750
00:48:51,555 --> 00:48:53,055
And I love the message today less.

751
00:48:53,055 --> 00:48:57,015
So one of the reason I love you,
can you share a one last, I'm
going to ask you to share how.

752
00:48:57,785 --> 00:48:58,475
Connect with you.

753
00:48:58,475 --> 00:49:01,955
If they want to find you on any
social media or website, how do people

754
00:49:02,015 --> 00:49:02,915
Les: find out more about less?

755
00:49:03,005 --> 00:49:03,395
Sure.

756
00:49:03,455 --> 00:49:05,825
Well, first and foremost,
you can email me.

757
00:49:05,945 --> 00:49:07,715
Don't put me on your spam emails.

758
00:49:07,715 --> 00:49:10,805
If you're actually listening to
this and like, oh, well there's
somebody else I can put on my list.

759
00:49:11,465 --> 00:49:11,995
Now email me.

760
00:49:12,215 --> 00:49:16,385
I mean less, which is with one
S at epic fusion dot light.

761
00:49:16,415 --> 00:49:17,465
That's epi.

762
00:49:18,154 --> 00:49:26,765
Fusion F U S I O n.life, my website, which
is about to blanch here, as soon as epic
fusion.life as well, you can check me

763
00:49:26,765 --> 00:49:31,565
out on all my social channels, which has
less, is more life or less is more.life.

764
00:49:31,625 --> 00:49:38,495
Uh, Facebook, I got a page, their
Instagram, all those things less is
more all with one S I had to adopt

765
00:49:38,524 --> 00:49:42,634
the affirmation of less is more
to overcome being less in my life.

766
00:49:45,210 --> 00:49:45,660
Matt: I like that.

767
00:49:45,690 --> 00:49:47,790
Can you share with our audience,
one thing just came to mind.

768
00:49:47,790 --> 00:49:48,570
Can you show their audience?

769
00:49:48,570 --> 00:49:50,130
What is your license plate look

770
00:49:50,130 --> 00:49:50,520
Les: like?

771
00:49:50,790 --> 00:49:53,490
Ah, it says my license plate.

772
00:49:53,550 --> 00:49:58,050
I can't, I can't show it to you,
but it says love w N Z, which
everybody goes, what does that mean?

773
00:49:58,050 --> 00:50:03,120
I got love wins 30 years so that
when I'm honking at you and screaming
at you and giving you the finger,

774
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,300
you can look at my license plate
and you can know that love wins.

775
00:50:05,300 --> 00:50:05,730
So love me.

776
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:10,880
Matt: Hopefully, not too many
people are screaming at you.

777
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,460
Uh, as soon as you go
buy them that big truck.

778
00:50:14,090 --> 00:50:14,300
Les: Yeah.

779
00:50:15,260 --> 00:50:16,040
That doesn't have it.

780
00:50:16,610 --> 00:50:18,020
You know, love wins is the key.

781
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:19,820
That is it for all of us.

782
00:50:19,970 --> 00:50:20,360
Awesome.

783
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,570
Matt: Well, thank you so much
less for, uh, taking the time
to share with our team today.

784
00:50:23,570 --> 00:50:27,170
And, uh, we love you much
appreciated and, uh, look forward
to seeing it the retreat soon.

785
00:50:27,470 --> 00:50:28,070
Les: Absolutely.

786
00:50:32,529 --> 00:50:35,589
Thanks for listening to the
eternal optimist podcast.

787
00:50:36,009 --> 00:50:42,520
You can check the show notes for
information about today's episode,
and please share the show with that
friend who is wanting to think bigger.

788
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:43,750
We'll see you next time.