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Matt Edmundson: Hello and welcome to
another episode of the eCommerce Podcast

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with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

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The eCommerce Podcast is all about
helping you deliver eCommerce wow.

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And to help us do just that,
today we are chatting with

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Vikram Saxena from BetterCommerce
about all things Omnichannel.

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We're going to get into what
Omnichannel eCommerce is.

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As things currently stand in 2024
with the maestro himself, Vikram.

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So don't go anywhere, grab
your notebooks, grab your pens,

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because you're going to want them.

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Now, if you are new to the show,
if this is your first time with

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us, a very warm welcome to you.

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It's great that you're here on the show.

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Love the fact that it's
still growing every week.

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I'm still looking at the numbers going,
oh my lord it's amazing what's going on.

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Warm, welcome to you.

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the website eCommerce podcast.net.

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And whilst you're there, have a look,
have a gander, maybe, at eCommerce Cohort.

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This show is brought to you by
the wonderful eCommerce Cohort.

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That is our monthly mastermind group.

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You can be a part of it.

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Come join us.

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We're in there every month.

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It'd be great to meet you and you can find
out more information at eCommerceCohort.

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com if that's something
that tickles your fancy.

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Now that's the show sponsor.

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Let's talk about today's guest, Mr.

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Vikram.

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Yes, from teaching Microsoft
Office, remember those days,

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to pioneering in eCommerce.

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Vikram turned a coding hobby into
BetterCommerce, revolutionising retail

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with customisable, budget friendly tech.

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His journey from a self taught
coder to a CEO showcases a leap

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from corporate life Two filling a
critical gap with an API first Lego.

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I love this Lego like approach
for mid market retailers.

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Now he's not just an entrepreneur.

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Oh no, he's a visionary making
eCommerce accessible advocating

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for growth without growing pains.

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Love, love, love that.

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We are all advocating for eCommerce, which
I think is why we're here, Vikram, but

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it's great to have you on the show, man.

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Thank you for joining me.

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Vikram Saxena: Thank you so much, Matt.

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It's a pleasure being here.

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I've been hearing a few of the
podcasts and it's absolutely amazing

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what you've got, what you're doing.

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It's just phenomenal.

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Matt Edmundson: Oh, bless you.

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We enjoy it.

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We enjoy doing it.

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We get to meet awesome
people like yourself.

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What I liked about your bio what I,
what made me smile when I was reading

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it is you are a self taught coder
and it started out as a hobby and

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has now ended up as your business.

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And if I'm honest with you,
that is exactly my story.

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I just started doing something for a
hobby and it turns out it's now my career.

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Only I didn't build an eCommerce platform
like you did with BetterCommerce.

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I just built my eCommerce
empire, but it's good to,

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Vikram Saxena: brilliant.

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Matt Edmundson: yeah, it's
good to share that, isn't it?

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It's good to have that in common.

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How did you get started in coding?

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Did you just have a go one day
or was it more intentional?

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Vikram Saxena: No, actually, I
was quite disillusioned when I

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was at the college stage and I had
no idea what I was going to do.

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So a friend of mine suggested, there's
this opportunity of getting a job

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to train people on Microsoft Office.

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I said, I've never seen it.

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He said, no worries.

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I've never even seen Microsoft Office
and that was Microsoft Office 97.

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Matt Edmundson: Wow.

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Vikram Saxena: he said, no
worries, you can talk really well.

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Why don't you just go
and give an interview?

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Maybe they select you
and train you for it.

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I just went for the interview
and they just selected me and

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three months I taught office.

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I still remember my first day I was
standing there and I was teaching them

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things that I had never seen myself.

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I was opening a menu, I was opening
a menu, clicked on File New, it

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created a new file and I just repeated
whatever it did on the screen.

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Matt Edmundson: Wow.

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Vikram Saxena: but within three months,
I literally burned the midnight oil

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and somehow it just took my fancy that
this is what I want to do in my life.

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Computers, that's what I wanted to do.

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And then within three months, I got
bored of Office, then next three months,

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I focused completely on the networking,
hardware, assembling PCs, myself, Windows

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95, installing, uninstalling, doing
all of that networking bit as well.

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And then I got bored of that as well.

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And then I said, I want
to become a programmer.

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That was the next logical evolution.

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But everybody said, you don't have
educational background, you don't have

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a degree in technology, you can't be.

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So I said, fine, I picked up a book, which
read Learn ASP in 24 hours and you may not

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believe, but I actually sat with that book
for 48 hours from page one to page last.

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And those two days were the
enlightening part for my life.

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And I said, this is what I'm going
to do for the rest of my life.

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And that was the beginning.

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That's it.

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Matt Edmundson: Fantastic.

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I love that.

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Your little Damascus road
experience ASP in 24 hours.

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I started in I started creating
coding websites in 1997.

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So as you're teaching office, and in my
head, Vikram, I'm showing my age slightly.

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I think we both are by
talking about Office 97.

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Was that the one with the
little paper clip in the

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Vikram Saxena: Yes.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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That's the one.

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Yeah.

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Indeed it was.

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It was.

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Yeah, my, my first, yeah, my first
rendezvous with the computers.

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Yeah.

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Matt Edmundson: I was still
using PCs back then as well.

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It wasn't until later I became, a Mac
fanboy, but yeah, it's fascinating.

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Yeah, so I started
coding websites in 1997.

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Got married in 98, one of the first
websites I did was our wedding

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website, and it's funny I, like
you, I got bored with a few things

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along the way and yet here I am.

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I didn't learn ASP I learnt PHP because
it felt like it was slightly easier to get

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Vikram Saxena: Yeah.

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Matt Edmundson: I took the easy
road, Vikram, I took the easy road.

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Yeah,

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Vikram Saxena: of us survived and
both the technologies have still

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survived, in some form or shape.

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Matt Edmundson: you do much coding now?

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I do

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Vikram Saxena: I still do.

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I, yeah, I know I'm
completely hands on actually.

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I still spend my weekends learning new
stuff, practicing new technologies,

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writing codes for some new solutions.

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I've built a solution over the
weekends over the last six months,

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which basically automates the process
across all software organization.

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And it's not just project management,
it's across team, project, infrastructure,

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assignment, allocation, everything.

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And all of that I've done over
the weekends all by myself.

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Matt Edmundson: Wow.

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Keeps you busy then.

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I, unlike you I, we took on some
a young chap called Mark Jackson.

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He came to us fresh out of university.

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He's still with us, Mark.

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This is years ago.

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I don't quite remember how many
years ago now, a long time ago.

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Mark came and joined us
fresh out of university.

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He had a degree in electronic
engineering and I taught him

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everything I knew about coding.

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It took about 20 minutes and then
and then he took it over really.

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And so now he's a director of
all things technical and the.

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Vikram Saxena: Brilliant.

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Matt Edmundson: The skill level now
in coding is just something else.

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Compared to what it was when I was
writing, when I wrote the first

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eCommerce website, it's chalk and cheese.

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So I still get the basics.

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I still get the fundamentals, but
yeah it's way beyond my, I'd have

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to, I'd probably have to spend
six months trying to catch up now.

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My son, my eldest son is actually
a much better programmer than I am.

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And

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Vikram Saxena: very good.

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Yeah.

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Matt Edmundson: yeah I, unlike,
so unlike you I, I do miss it.

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The coding aspect of it.

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So how come you decided to
write BetterCommerce then?

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What was the story behind that?

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Vikram Saxena: So basically, in 98,
I started off one year was primarily

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into corporate trainings, and then I
moved on into the programming world.

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So about 10 years, I stayed in the
corporate world, working for companies

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across Europe, and I lived in Germany
for about three years, worked for

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a very large enterprise business.

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And then I learned a lot of new things,
how to build platforms at scale, when

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you are, and at the time when we built
that platform back in 2004, it was

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much bigger than Amazon at the time.

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It was a B2B web store, but it was much
more in terms of revenue and volume that

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than Amazon that was doing at the time.

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Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

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Vikram Saxena: And then when I quit
back in 2007, I started my own IT

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services business, and I was very happy
doing it because I wanted freedom.

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I wanted freedom.

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I'm not cut out for corporate bureaucracy
and, all of that repetitivism around.

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So I wanted to build something
of my own and have a much more

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friendly culture and environment.

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So 2007 is when I quit
and I started on my own.

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So I had been doing a lot of IT services
business and we did a huge project.

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We built a platform for a company
called Tech Data back in 2011- 2012.

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Which basically brought all the software
giants of the world in one place.

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So if you remember back in the day,
if you wanted to buy a software,

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you would probably walk to PC
World, pick up a box, and that box

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would have a CD and a license key.

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So we built a platform which
would eliminate all of that.

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Now, if you think about the logistics
behind that box, what you were

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doing, what the behind the box was
happening, was basically PC World was

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buying that box as a proper goods.

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from the distributor.

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Distributor was sourcing it
from the manufacturers, which

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is the software vendors.

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And it was all being shipped, right?

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So we built a platform to eliminate
all of that and make it completely

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digital and just in time.

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And at the time it was called
Electronic Software Delivery.

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So we built a digital vault, which
would store software license keys

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from hundreds of vendors in the world.

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Across Europe, U.

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S.

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and everywhere and even today
that platform is very much in use.

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So if you go to Curry's website and
you buy an Xbox or Office or Adobe

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or Symantec, you're basically using
the platform that we built because

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even Curry's uses our platform in the

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Matt Edmundson: Oh wow.

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Vikram Saxena: Yeah, so like Curry's
across Europe, you pick up any giant

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retailer, if you're buying software,
chances are you're probably using

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the platform that we built for them.

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So that gave us the confidence of, doing
something at a very large scale and we

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were doing some eCommerce websites and
what we found was, that the eCommerce

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websites or the platforms available around
the time, they were either, Shopify is

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of course brilliant and to get started
off, my exposure has primarily been into

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mid to large scale businesses rather
than people who are just starting off

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eCommerce or starting off their business.

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So we realized that the options
available were either Magento or,

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Salesforce or Demandware back in the
day, which became Salesforce later

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on, or, Hybris probably started off.

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And what we found was that these
were very complicated to set up.

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These were very difficult to, configure,
and you needed pretty much an army

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to get them up and running on the
life cycles of implementation was

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around 24 months, 18 months, and the
budgets ran into a couple of millions.

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Coming from that enterprise background,
but having that agile approach to

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everything and simplifying things,
we said, we want to build a midway

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between Shopify and Demandware, which
basically offers your enterprise

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grade capabilities and scale.

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without burning a hole in your
pocket and without burning

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a couple of million dollars.

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So that was the reasoning behind it.

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Plus, when we started to build
it, what we also found was

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that, people had to go through.

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So for example, if you are
building an eCommerce business,

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you would probably need something
to manage your product data.

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That's where your PIM comes into play.

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And then you need something from
an order management perspective.

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And then there are these OMS
providers and then you have WMS

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providers and then you have analytics.

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And before you realize, you probably,
from a primary stack perspective, you

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need 10 different softwares to build them
together, to build an end to end stack.

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Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

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Vikram Saxena: Forget about 50 or 70
plugins that you drop on your Shopify

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website for just getting the basic run.

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Forget about those.

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And what is the trade off behind that?

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I don't even want to go there because
it just slows down your website, in a

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difficult ways that you can resolve.

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So we said, we started building with
PIM then gradually built an OMS for the

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businesses who did not want to, go for a
full large scale, which didn't have a very

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large scale ERP budgets and all of that.

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So we said, we'll build a
smaller OMS, a smaller WMS with

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some WMS capabilities as well.

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And we will offer them the analytics.

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So the idea was that we will
build these as Lego blocks.

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And that's where this comes from,
that when we offer a solution, we

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don't just say, you take the whole
thing or just, do something else.

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We say, start your own journey.

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And if your problem is product
data management, I'm Try to use

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our PIM and then see how it goes.

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And our PIM will potentially work with
whatever platform that you today are on.

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So that's how we started off.

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And that was the thesis and philosophy
behind building this platform

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and being hands on and being very
business savvy as well from the

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perspective of business processes.

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I knew where can we cut down a lot of
flab, where can we make this simple.

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And I've always believed,
complexity is very easy to do.

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the simplicity.

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Matt Edmundson: true yeah.

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Vikram Saxena: It's the simplicity
which takes a lot of time to

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build and create something.

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Matt Edmundson: No, I totally agree.

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The, you totally was it, Steve Jobs
said something about that, didn't he?

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About simplicity being the hardest thing
in the world to do or something like that.

288
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But it's I totally agree with you.

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Complexity is so easy to do.

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So you've got this platform, then
you've got BetterCommerce which is

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if you've never come across it it's
like you say, it's a sort of a.

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A step up in a lot of ways
from Shopify as a platform.

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You've got some big name clients,
we were talking about this

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before we hit the record button.

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You've got Fragrance Shop,
which is a large retail chain of

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fragrance stores here in the UK.

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So the client that I immediately
recognized when I was looking at your

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website So you're obviously, Fragrance
Shop own bricks and mortar stores.

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They've got their online stuff.

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So you've obviously got a great deal
of experience then trying to get the

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omni channel thing to work, which
is, what we're talking about here.

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So.

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How do, with what you know about
Omnichannel and where it's come from

304
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the last, five years or so, and probably
accelerated slightly with COVID,

305
00:14:50,485 --> 00:14:55,905
but what's the state of Omnichannel
as things currently lie in 2024?

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00:14:57,130 --> 00:14:59,610
Vikram Saxena: I think to be
honest, a lot of businesses are

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still struggling with the basics.

308
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Today there's so much of hype and
buzz around the AI, but I think

309
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people have forgotten that a
lot of basics are still missing.

310
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A lot of businesses still struggle
to get their basics in terms of, they

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have different systems which have
the store related customer data and

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they have different systems where
their online customers are sitting.

313
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Getting them together, they have a
pipeline which runs probably once

314
00:15:24,515 --> 00:15:28,494
a day or once a week or different
frequency and that also breaks often,

315
00:15:28,985 --> 00:15:29,295
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

316
00:15:29,574 --> 00:15:32,725
Vikram Saxena: which I think
Is a much bigger problem

317
00:15:32,725 --> 00:15:34,185
than bringing new buzzwords.

318
00:15:34,215 --> 00:15:37,475
Of course, every CEO and every CTO
wants to add those buzzwords to their

319
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profile, to their business, from a
market perception perspective, but from

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offering value to the customer, a lot of
businesses are still struggling with that.

321
00:15:48,605 --> 00:15:50,839
And the primary reason behind that is.

322
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Every technology provider, their
solutions sold in that name

323
00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,870
without much substance behind it.

324
00:16:00,950 --> 00:16:04,439
And no offense to anybody, but
a lot of solutions are driven

325
00:16:06,380 --> 00:16:07,890
value delivered to the business.

326
00:16:09,055 --> 00:16:10,895
Matt Edmundson: Sorry, Vikram,
you just broke up slightly

327
00:16:10,895 --> 00:16:12,205
and your camera's frozen.

328
00:16:12,465 --> 00:16:14,035
Just repeat that last part again.

329
00:16:15,289 --> 00:16:15,499
Vikram Saxena: Yeah.

330
00:16:15,499 --> 00:16:19,169
So what I meant was, a lot of
solutions are driven more by the sales

331
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oriented numbers and presentations.

332
00:16:21,864 --> 00:16:24,764
I think the actual business value
delivered by them in the proof.

333
00:16:25,064 --> 00:16:25,364
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

334
00:16:25,614 --> 00:16:31,204
Vikram Saxena: And I think there is still
a lot of work to be done by a lot of

335
00:16:31,214 --> 00:16:35,884
businesses in the area of omnichannel,
to actually become properly omnichannel.

336
00:16:38,264 --> 00:16:41,074
Matt Edmundson: what do you mean what kind
of work needs to be done, do you think?

337
00:16:42,054 --> 00:16:45,014
Vikram Saxena: I think bringing it all
together is still a bit of a challenge

338
00:16:45,034 --> 00:16:48,664
for a lot of businesses because they
tend to have a lot of departments

339
00:16:48,684 --> 00:16:54,914
and then I'll give you a small you
know a narrative we are only so as

340
00:16:54,914 --> 00:16:59,419
a consumer when you are shopping you
know when you are in the tube or when

341
00:16:59,419 --> 00:17:02,389
you're walking, you're probably looking
at a website on your mobile, right?

342
00:17:03,089 --> 00:17:06,719
Then you happen to get to your
office, you will probably open

343
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up your laptop and probably open
up the website there as well.

344
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:13,799
Maybe, if you were willing to
buy, I still struggle to put

345
00:17:13,799 --> 00:17:15,239
in my card details in my phone.

346
00:17:15,239 --> 00:17:18,689
Of course, today's generation is
different, but sometimes I'm still

347
00:17:18,699 --> 00:17:22,239
more comfortable of entering my card
details into the laptop rather than

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00:17:22,239 --> 00:17:25,439
on my mobile phone a lot of times,
especially when I'm moving or I'm

349
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on mobile or somewhere outside.

350
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:30,879
And then, you will potentially
go to the store as well.

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00:17:30,879 --> 00:17:35,849
And you will know at the end of it, you're
probably going through all these three

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00:17:35,849 --> 00:17:37,599
different channels of the same brand.

353
00:17:38,194 --> 00:17:40,154
But you may be just
buying it from the store.

354
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Now a lot of businesses, what they
do is they treat each of these as

355
00:17:44,444 --> 00:17:49,144
a separate channel and there are
different people responsible for each

356
00:17:49,144 --> 00:17:53,184
channel and a lot of times there's a
competition set between these channels.

357
00:17:53,454 --> 00:17:57,144
Okay, my store revenue is this
much, 10 percent more or my

358
00:17:57,154 --> 00:17:59,714
online revenue is this much or my
mobile app revenue is this much.

359
00:18:00,279 --> 00:18:04,849
Instead of competing with each other,
they need to start feeding and nurturing

360
00:18:04,969 --> 00:18:07,459
the customer journey across the board.

361
00:18:08,439 --> 00:18:12,159
So there's a bit of a paradigm shift
more than technology solutions are

362
00:18:12,159 --> 00:18:15,569
of course one part of it, but I think
there's a significant element of

363
00:18:15,689 --> 00:18:20,119
mindset and a paradigm that has to
be brought in that consumer does not

364
00:18:20,129 --> 00:18:23,489
differentiate between channels when
they are interacting with your brand.

365
00:18:23,499 --> 00:18:24,279
Why should you?

366
00:18:24,914 --> 00:18:27,264
Matt Edmundson: right, it's a
very good question, isn't it?

367
00:18:27,265 --> 00:18:30,729
So why do why do companies still do that?

368
00:18:31,310 --> 00:18:33,360
Why do we differentiate
across channels like that?

369
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:35,680
Vikram Saxena: I think a lot of
times we're looking for people.

370
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:40,140
So we make people accountable to
drive business for one channel.

371
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And of course.

372
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,530
And there's a lot of pressure that comes
from the top, but they don't realize that

373
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there's always going to be an overlap.

374
00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:52,950
The journey may have, and this
again goes back to the same problem

375
00:18:52,950 --> 00:18:54,290
that has been there for ages.

376
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,630
Where do you give the
attribution for the sale?

377
00:18:57,025 --> 00:18:58,035
Did that attribution.

378
00:18:58,495 --> 00:19:01,865
Now this is where, you potentially,
your omni channel, if you do

379
00:19:01,865 --> 00:19:05,135
the omni channel right, you can
get a little bit of sense of it.

380
00:19:05,185 --> 00:19:10,055
Now it is still quite vast, but you can
still make a little bit of sense of it.

381
00:19:10,465 --> 00:19:14,005
Now, how would you make sense of it
is, for example, if you implement

382
00:19:14,005 --> 00:19:18,085
the right level of CDP, which is
basically your customer data platform,

383
00:19:18,145 --> 00:19:19,645
capturing their event history from.

384
00:19:20,370 --> 00:19:22,110
Web, mobile app.

385
00:19:22,580 --> 00:19:25,280
And then if they make the eventual
purchase from the store, and if you're

386
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,990
capturing their mobile number, you
can basically merge it all together

387
00:19:28,990 --> 00:19:34,960
into one single customer and single
order, bring it all together.

388
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:40,430
And that data at an aggregate level gives
you a much better picture of how many

389
00:19:40,430 --> 00:19:45,090
people are interacting with your brand
in which channels and which channels are.

390
00:19:45,470 --> 00:19:49,210
generating more sales and how are
they actually driving to that?

391
00:19:49,970 --> 00:19:52,580
Now, they may have looked at a
different product on the web, but

392
00:19:52,580 --> 00:19:54,820
they may have bought something
else when they went to the store,

393
00:19:59,050 --> 00:19:59,370
Matt Edmundson: It's an

394
00:19:59,410 --> 00:20:00,260
Vikram Saxena: idea is

395
00:20:00,450 --> 00:20:03,860
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, sorry, you just
froze there for a little second, but it's

396
00:20:03,860 --> 00:20:07,440
interesting, isn't it, that consumers,
and this was something actually, we

397
00:20:07,470 --> 00:20:10,770
talked about this with Neil Hoynes,
the chief data strategist from Google.

398
00:20:10,770 --> 00:20:13,780
He was on the show recently talking
about a similar thing, Vikram, is in the

399
00:20:13,780 --> 00:20:16,050
sense that people are not linear, right?

400
00:20:16,090 --> 00:20:17,260
Your customer's not linear.

401
00:20:17,260 --> 00:20:20,090
They don't go from A to B,
from B to C, from C to D.

402
00:20:20,180 --> 00:20:23,250
As much as we'd like to think that's
the customer journey and we can.

403
00:20:23,835 --> 00:20:27,505
We can draw that out on a whiteboard,
it's not actually the case, right?

404
00:20:28,095 --> 00:20:32,545
It's like a jumbled ball of wire where
everything's all a mash of things, right?

405
00:20:32,565 --> 00:20:33,555
Is that what you're finding?

406
00:20:33,650 --> 00:20:35,450
Vikram Saxena: yes, absolutely.

407
00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:36,280
Absolutely.

408
00:20:36,410 --> 00:20:37,120
Absolutely.

409
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,780
Now, I think the secret lies
somewhere in trying to get a

410
00:20:41,950 --> 00:20:43,670
little bit of patterns out of it.

411
00:20:44,790 --> 00:20:47,940
The amount of interactions that
they have had with your brand,

412
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:49,620
irrespective of the touch point.

413
00:20:50,090 --> 00:20:55,220
And if you start bringing that together
and tying them into the sales, that

414
00:20:55,230 --> 00:20:59,560
helps you build that connection
with them better and add a little

415
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:00,880
bit of stickiness to your business.

416
00:21:01,550 --> 00:21:05,150
For example, what we've done with
Fragrance Shop and I'm, I'm, they're

417
00:21:05,180 --> 00:21:06,660
absolutely a phenomenal brand.

418
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,910
Now, if you imagine they have about
250 stores across the country and

419
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,175
despite all the COVID and everything,
their year on year was just Minus

420
00:21:16,175 --> 00:21:18,035
1% through the whole period.

421
00:21:18,085 --> 00:21:19,215
And how did that happen?

422
00:21:19,665 --> 00:21:24,605
What we did was we built a solution
for them that would enable their

423
00:21:24,615 --> 00:21:28,445
stores to become mini fulfillment
centers during the COVID period.

424
00:21:29,150 --> 00:21:31,420
And that solution was
developed and delivered to

425
00:21:31,420 --> 00:21:32,760
them within two to three weeks

426
00:21:32,995 --> 00:21:34,724
Matt Edmundson: yeah,

427
00:21:35,670 --> 00:21:39,490
Vikram Saxena: So that unlocked a
huge amount of inventory for them.

428
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,020
Because eventually, the online
sales are all driven by inventory.

429
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,540
If you are king, if you have the
inventory, now typically your

430
00:21:47,550 --> 00:21:50,580
online businesses would only
reflect the inventory that is

431
00:21:50,580 --> 00:21:51,950
sitting in your big warehouses.

432
00:21:53,305 --> 00:21:56,855
Whereas you have those mini stores
and a lot of times you would

433
00:21:56,855 --> 00:21:58,045
say click and collect is fine.

434
00:21:58,065 --> 00:22:01,035
But what about using them
as your fulfillment centers?

435
00:22:01,325 --> 00:22:04,245
And they thought about it
right and well done, good time.

436
00:22:04,485 --> 00:22:07,085
We built a solution, really a quick one.

437
00:22:07,405 --> 00:22:10,705
And the beauty of this is where the
beauty of headless comes into play

438
00:22:11,265 --> 00:22:13,075
when your solution is all API driven.

439
00:22:13,085 --> 00:22:15,485
You can just build anything
as a front end on top of it

440
00:22:15,745 --> 00:22:16,005
Matt Edmundson: Yeah,

441
00:22:17,235 --> 00:22:20,605
Vikram Saxena: without trying to reinvent
any logic or anything around that.

442
00:22:20,625 --> 00:22:21,455
We just built that.

443
00:22:21,945 --> 00:22:24,315
And they unlocked a huge
amount of inventory.

444
00:22:24,375 --> 00:22:28,155
They increased their sales
volumes and they came out of COVID

445
00:22:28,455 --> 00:22:30,535
pretty much almost unaffected.

446
00:22:31,345 --> 00:22:34,265
And if you look at the results
that they've declared last year,

447
00:22:34,295 --> 00:22:36,185
their sales have grown 28%.

448
00:22:36,655 --> 00:22:37,055
Matt Edmundson: yeah,

449
00:22:37,245 --> 00:22:38,535
Vikram Saxena: It's all in public domain.

450
00:22:38,905 --> 00:22:39,205
Matt Edmundson: Yeah,

451
00:22:39,775 --> 00:22:43,875
Vikram Saxena: People say high
street is dying and fragrance shop

452
00:22:43,995 --> 00:22:46,705
is constantly thriving, which I
mean, makes me immensely proud.

453
00:22:47,425 --> 00:22:49,775
And the guy who drives it, I
know him personally as well.

454
00:22:49,825 --> 00:22:53,195
It's he's absolutely a
dynamo from that perspective.

455
00:22:53,195 --> 00:22:55,255
His sense of business is
absolutely phenomenal.

456
00:22:56,135 --> 00:22:57,725
And he catches the pulse.

457
00:22:57,725 --> 00:23:00,635
If you look at it, if you wanted to
buy a perfume, you would probably

458
00:23:00,635 --> 00:23:03,495
go any website and these are, this
is such a commoditized product

459
00:23:04,125 --> 00:23:05,215
You could buy it anywhere.

460
00:23:05,215 --> 00:23:07,815
You will do a price comparison
and you can buy it anywhere.

461
00:23:07,815 --> 00:23:11,185
But despite all of that, their
sales are constantly growing.

462
00:23:11,705 --> 00:23:15,785
28 percent in this day and age, year on
year growth is absolutely phenomenal.

463
00:23:16,305 --> 00:23:18,585
Matt Edmundson: it is when you're
already as big as they are, right?

464
00:23:18,595 --> 00:23:20,995
And that's the, that's a phenomenal thing.

465
00:23:21,445 --> 00:23:27,205
I love this idea of the mini,
warehouse, like each store becomes

466
00:23:27,205 --> 00:23:28,335
a sort of a mini warehouse.

467
00:23:28,335 --> 00:23:31,275
One of the things that I was that I
saw some companies doing well and other

468
00:23:31,275 --> 00:23:35,335
companies not doing so well during
COVID, like I said to, the corner

469
00:23:35,335 --> 00:23:36,845
shop down the bottom of the road.

470
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:40,600
He obviously has his, he has his shelves
full of goods, not as much as, say,

471
00:23:40,650 --> 00:23:44,840
the big supermarkets like Asda or Tesco
here in the UK, but he had some stock

472
00:23:44,890 --> 00:23:50,550
and he had a captive audience, in a lot
of ways because people were around, and

473
00:23:50,550 --> 00:23:54,950
it was like, the ones I saw do really
well were like, actually what I can do

474
00:23:55,110 --> 00:24:00,220
is I can put all of our stuff that's in
the shop online, people can order their

475
00:24:00,220 --> 00:24:02,530
shopping, they can click and collect.

476
00:24:03,215 --> 00:24:08,075
Or, we can do a free delivery if they
live within 500 metres of the shop,

477
00:24:08,135 --> 00:24:11,235
and the guy would just literally walk
around, with a trolley and the bags,

478
00:24:11,235 --> 00:24:13,055
dropping them off for different customers.

479
00:24:14,060 --> 00:24:16,890
And it's very different for him
now in a lot of ways, but having

480
00:24:16,890 --> 00:24:22,180
that small warehouse mindset,
and actually we are a store.

481
00:24:22,620 --> 00:24:26,210
We can do click and collect
and we can do local delivery.

482
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,450
I saw that unlock a lot of
things for people over COVID.

483
00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:33,150
It was one of the things that sort of came
out of it, which no one was, I didn't,

484
00:24:33,180 --> 00:24:36,790
I, it's not something that we were all
expecting or thinking about, in eCommerce.

485
00:24:36,790 --> 00:24:39,855
And actually when you looked at it,
you're like, restaurants who did the

486
00:24:39,855 --> 00:24:43,185
same thing, here's our menu, come click
and collect, or doing local delivery.

487
00:24:43,805 --> 00:24:48,095
It, just merging their business with
the online world in a way that, and

488
00:24:48,095 --> 00:24:51,905
I think here's the success thing for
me is when it comes to Omnichannel,

489
00:24:52,725 --> 00:24:55,835
you've got to do it in a way that
makes sense for the customer, right?

490
00:24:56,155 --> 00:24:56,975
Vikram Saxena: Absolutely.

491
00:24:57,265 --> 00:25:00,205
Matt Edmundson: and if you can do that,
which is what the fragrance store has

492
00:25:00,205 --> 00:25:01,885
done, I think you can win every time.

493
00:25:02,185 --> 00:25:06,085
What are some of the other things that
you've seen work well with Omnichannel?

494
00:25:06,085 --> 00:25:08,275
I'm really curious because obviously
you've been dealing with this a lot.

495
00:25:09,525 --> 00:25:09,855
Vikram Saxena: Yeah.

496
00:25:09,885 --> 00:25:13,015
So I think one more thing that
has worked really wonders for the

497
00:25:13,025 --> 00:25:14,685
business, especially in last few years.

498
00:25:14,695 --> 00:25:16,915
So we had built a capability
called membership.

499
00:25:16,965 --> 00:25:20,995
Everybody knows Prime membership,
Amazon Prime is the biggest example

500
00:25:20,995 --> 00:25:24,415
of a membership model, where you
basically pay for that membership.

501
00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:28,680
And you get, free shipping next
day or things, so many elements.

502
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,790
And there's of course the
video content is another.

503
00:25:31,255 --> 00:25:32,455
Side benefit of it.

504
00:25:32,455 --> 00:25:35,275
But their primary goal is not the
video content, its primary goal is

505
00:25:35,275 --> 00:25:37,255
to get you to the store and shop

506
00:25:37,575 --> 00:25:38,035
Matt Edmundson: Yep.

507
00:25:38,145 --> 00:25:38,565
Vikram Saxena: and more.

508
00:25:39,705 --> 00:25:43,025
And I think fragrance shop,
again, innovated in that area.

509
00:25:43,025 --> 00:25:46,405
So we built a membership model
capability in the platform,

510
00:25:46,465 --> 00:25:47,860
which they used to the hilt.

511
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,800
And they offer three levels of
membership and they sell these

512
00:25:51,810 --> 00:25:53,470
memberships, not just online.

513
00:25:53,470 --> 00:25:56,050
They sell these memberships
when people walk into the stores

514
00:25:56,535 --> 00:25:57,035
Matt Edmundson: Okay.

515
00:25:58,630 --> 00:26:01,360
Vikram Saxena: and all of this
is done through our platform.

516
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:05,350
And the beauty of this is now they
have a store infrastructure, which

517
00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:08,730
is probably quite, nobody would want
to change the store infrastructure,

518
00:26:08,730 --> 00:26:10,740
which is across 250 stores.

519
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,250
That's a huge project in itself.

520
00:26:12,250 --> 00:26:13,800
You don't know just the hardware itself.

521
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,260
So we didn't want to touch
any of those elements.

522
00:26:16,260 --> 00:26:19,090
And now this is where, again, the
beauty of the headless or the API

523
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:20,400
first approach comes into play.

524
00:26:21,140 --> 00:26:24,970
Because we built it in a way that their
store, so what they did was they, their

525
00:26:24,970 --> 00:26:29,590
store software then it essentially
uses our membership module and starts

526
00:26:29,590 --> 00:26:32,760
to sell those membership capability
to the customers who are walking in.

527
00:26:33,710 --> 00:26:36,260
And the beauty is the moment
you buy that membership, you

528
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,930
instantly get 20 percent discount.

529
00:26:39,530 --> 00:26:42,920
So you are buying a fragrance,
let's say Chanel for 70 quid.

530
00:26:43,050 --> 00:26:48,260
And now you, somebody tells you, if
you pay just another 10 quid, 20 quid

531
00:26:48,260 --> 00:26:49,650
are automatically going to come off.

532
00:26:49,910 --> 00:26:50,330
Matt Edmundson: Yep.

533
00:26:50,690 --> 00:26:52,570
Vikram Saxena: 20 percent is
automatically going to go off.

534
00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:56,180
Plus you will get additional 20 percent
vouchers for your next two sales.

535
00:26:57,035 --> 00:26:58,025
for your next two purchases.

536
00:26:59,185 --> 00:27:00,115
Yeah, absolutely.

537
00:27:00,285 --> 00:27:00,695
Good.

538
00:27:01,515 --> 00:27:06,205
So customer buys it and that
then brings in a huge amount of

539
00:27:06,205 --> 00:27:08,895
cascading effect, a domino's effect.

540
00:27:09,365 --> 00:27:13,765
So you have unlocked a revenue
stream, a recurring revenue

541
00:27:13,765 --> 00:27:16,125
stream, which never existed, right?

542
00:27:16,135 --> 00:27:21,175
It's a brand new revenue stream in a
business model, which you, not a lot

543
00:27:21,175 --> 00:27:22,415
of people would have thought about.

544
00:27:22,935 --> 00:27:25,925
Secondly, you built the customer loyalty.

545
00:27:26,275 --> 00:27:27,575
Customer's not going anywhere now.

546
00:27:28,030 --> 00:27:28,390
Matt Edmundson: Yep.

547
00:27:30,825 --> 00:27:32,235
Vikram Saxena: And this model,

548
00:27:32,730 --> 00:27:33,210
Matt Edmundson: yeah, sorry.

549
00:27:33,210 --> 00:27:33,910
Go ahead.

550
00:27:35,635 --> 00:27:39,505
Vikram Saxena: and this model,
I think has shown phenomenal

551
00:27:39,505 --> 00:27:41,005
success in just last two years.

552
00:27:42,015 --> 00:27:44,745
The volume of paid members, and
these are all paid members, so

553
00:27:44,745 --> 00:27:46,195
people buy these memberships.

554
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:46,890
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

555
00:27:48,090 --> 00:27:50,310
Vikram Saxena: And they sell it,
I think it's on their website.

556
00:27:50,350 --> 00:27:54,230
They sell it for 15 quid, 25
quid and 35 quid or 45 quid.

557
00:27:54,580 --> 00:27:56,060
So there are three tiers of it.

558
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,390
And what we've also seen is a lot of
times people buy the first time 15 quid.

559
00:28:00,770 --> 00:28:04,460
And then they eventually upgrade to
45 quid and it's an annual thing.

560
00:28:06,755 --> 00:28:07,825
Matt Edmundson: it's powerful, isn't it?

561
00:28:07,825 --> 00:28:11,225
We've had Chris George on the show
and a few others talking about

562
00:28:11,225 --> 00:28:13,165
subscriptions, talking about memberships.

563
00:28:13,215 --> 00:28:18,255
There's a big show in Dallas in
June called SubSummit, a big show

564
00:28:18,265 --> 00:28:21,495
all to do with subscriptions and
memberships, which actually I'm yeah,

565
00:28:21,495 --> 00:28:23,245
to small plug, I'm going to be there.

566
00:28:23,265 --> 00:28:26,225
We're going to be doing a live
eCommerce podcast stuff there on

567
00:28:26,225 --> 00:28:27,665
parts and panels and stuff over there.

568
00:28:28,015 --> 00:28:32,485
And I really like Subsummit and I'm
really curious by what they're now

569
00:28:32,485 --> 00:28:37,615
calling subscription commerce and how
that has morphed into now membership

570
00:28:37,665 --> 00:28:41,175
commerce and how memberships.

571
00:28:42,595 --> 00:28:43,245
like levels.

572
00:28:43,345 --> 00:28:47,475
So I've just done a workshop for eCommerce
Cohort a sort of mastermind group.

573
00:28:47,875 --> 00:28:50,905
And we talked about the three levels of
retention, the sort of the basic level,

574
00:28:50,905 --> 00:28:57,225
which most people do level one, which is a
sort of a more advanced level, I supposed.

575
00:28:57,660 --> 00:29:00,410
Is when you move, you transition
your business from a straightforward

576
00:29:00,410 --> 00:29:03,530
eCommerce business into a
subscription based eCommerce business.

577
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,810
And then there's another level of, again,
another, another place to go deeper,

578
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,380
which is membership commerce, which is
really exciting, I think at the moment.

579
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:17,480
And there aren't that many companies who
are doing the membership eCommerce model.

580
00:29:17,675 --> 00:29:20,295
I think it's still less than
like a few percent, less than

581
00:29:20,315 --> 00:29:22,305
5%, I think last time I heard.

582
00:29:23,215 --> 00:29:26,455
And there's some insane opportunities here
because like you say, you look at Amazon

583
00:29:26,455 --> 00:29:32,355
Prime and you, the, one of the key reasons
Amazon has been so successful is because

584
00:29:32,435 --> 00:29:34,355
we all buy Amazon Prime membership.

585
00:29:34,515 --> 00:29:38,295
Incredible business model that works
off something called the sunk cost

586
00:29:38,295 --> 00:29:41,075
fallacy, which is something you
should actually get your head around.

587
00:29:41,075 --> 00:29:43,755
If you don't know about that, go and
research sunk cost fallacy because

588
00:29:43,755 --> 00:29:45,795
it's how members, why memberships work.

589
00:29:46,285 --> 00:29:49,735
And in terms of, bringing around that
loyalty, I think it's really clever.

590
00:29:49,745 --> 00:29:53,115
So the fact that the fragrance shop
are doing this now I think is really

591
00:29:53,115 --> 00:30:00,035
fascinating and making that work in an
omnichannel approach is blindingly clever.

592
00:30:00,395 --> 00:30:05,125
I think, and it's, I can see why they're
now getting that growth because their

593
00:30:05,125 --> 00:30:09,505
membership structure, I imagine, is going
to catapult them further and further.

594
00:30:09,505 --> 00:30:11,655
I'd love to talk to the guys
that decided to do this.

595
00:30:11,655 --> 00:30:15,720
I wonder whether they listening to
you talk about it, whether they've

596
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,020
actually priced it slightly too cheaply.

597
00:30:18,020 --> 00:30:22,030
I wonder if they wanted to maybe
be a bit braver at the start.

598
00:30:22,030 --> 00:30:22,510
I don't know.

599
00:30:22,510 --> 00:30:23,730
I'd be really curious,

600
00:30:23,730 --> 00:30:24,080
Vikram Saxena: yeah.

601
00:30:24,090 --> 00:30:27,600
And of course, and I was on the
board of Fragrance Shop as well at

602
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,030
some point, when we started off.

603
00:30:29,030 --> 00:30:31,064
So at the time in the discussions as well.

604
00:30:31,765 --> 00:30:35,505
That we were talking about where should
we price it and the idea was to, because

605
00:30:35,505 --> 00:30:39,675
this was a completely unheard concept
at the time when we started off and

606
00:30:39,795 --> 00:30:42,895
especially in such a commoditized space,
if there's nothing unique, they're

607
00:30:42,895 --> 00:30:47,145
a multi brand retailer, they're not
even producing that product, right?

608
00:30:47,275 --> 00:30:49,015
So they're just trading into that product.

609
00:30:49,065 --> 00:30:52,375
So the idea was how do we
differentiate and why do we charge?

610
00:30:52,375 --> 00:30:53,675
What is the value proposition?

611
00:30:53,685 --> 00:30:54,545
How should we start?

612
00:30:54,545 --> 00:30:57,595
So there were different surveys
that were done around that as

613
00:30:57,595 --> 00:30:59,375
well to get to this pricing.

614
00:30:59,385 --> 00:31:00,485
And of course, I can.

615
00:31:01,275 --> 00:31:03,355
Pass on your message and see
if they are interested and they

616
00:31:03,355 --> 00:31:04,665
can, of course, come back to you.

617
00:31:05,225 --> 00:31:05,915
on that front.

618
00:31:05,935 --> 00:31:07,115
But yeah, it's been fascinating.

619
00:31:07,175 --> 00:31:07,525
Yeah.

620
00:31:07,745 --> 00:31:08,095
Matt Edmundson: to know.

621
00:31:08,365 --> 00:31:11,125
The thing that I've, the thing that
I've learned about all of this, Vikram,

622
00:31:11,125 --> 00:31:14,745
with the membership commerce, because
we're about to launch a new eCommerce

623
00:31:14,895 --> 00:31:20,195
site, a new brand of beauty product,
which is going to be a membership.

624
00:31:21,005 --> 00:31:22,265
Driven sites.

625
00:31:22,475 --> 00:31:22,835
I don't know.

626
00:31:22,835 --> 00:31:24,365
We're not the first
beauty brands to do this.

627
00:31:24,415 --> 00:31:27,445
We're going to, the main sale
in effect is the membership.

628
00:31:27,445 --> 00:31:31,075
And we've priced it quite high, so
it's gonna be like a hundred bucks

629
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,575
a year to be a member of  the site.

630
00:31:34,535 --> 00:31:36,910
And what I've learned
is and time will tell.

631
00:31:36,910 --> 00:31:37,930
When we launch it, I'll let you know.

632
00:31:37,930 --> 00:31:39,100
I'll keep everyone updated.

633
00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:40,810
But the thing that I've
learned in all of this is.

634
00:31:41,415 --> 00:31:46,715
You've got to offer at least three times
the value of the membership, and if

635
00:31:46,715 --> 00:31:48,395
you do that, it becomes a no brainer.

636
00:31:48,455 --> 00:31:54,295
I can charge 100 membership if I offer
300 worth of value for signing up.

637
00:31:54,295 --> 00:31:56,925
And as long as you do that I
think you'll do quite well.

638
00:31:56,925 --> 00:32:01,615
Because like you say, once you, once
somebody is a member You then lose all

639
00:32:01,615 --> 00:32:04,095
the competition, don't you, because
they're paying their membership.

640
00:32:04,105 --> 00:32:05,825
They're gonna keep coming back to you.

641
00:32:06,430 --> 00:32:11,560
Vikram Saxena: It has a very huge
domino effect, if you may call it

642
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,010
because they're just going to come and
a repeat value that it brings to your

643
00:32:15,010 --> 00:32:16,700
business is just absolutely phenomenal.

644
00:32:16,945 --> 00:32:17,275
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

645
00:32:18,700 --> 00:32:22,170
Vikram Saxena: And if you can start,
capitalizing on that data, it just

646
00:32:22,170 --> 00:32:23,440
becomes even much more richer.

647
00:32:24,380 --> 00:32:28,170
Then you can see how many people
are upgrading their membership at

648
00:32:28,260 --> 00:32:30,000
what juncture are they upgrading it.

649
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,450
And one huge, another element
that you would have seen, if you

650
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,140
I'm sure Black Friday is huge.

651
00:32:35,570 --> 00:32:38,080
Now, if you remember Black
Friday used to be pretty much

652
00:32:38,140 --> 00:32:39,690
one day Black Friday, right?

653
00:32:39,700 --> 00:32:40,790
And then the boxing day.

654
00:32:41,570 --> 00:32:46,610
So ever since this membership has come
into play, Black Friday has almost

655
00:32:46,620 --> 00:32:49,530
become like a two month season for them.

656
00:32:49,530 --> 00:32:53,860
It's not just one day anymore because
they don't do flash sales anymore.

657
00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:55,970
Those flash sales are now
restricted to members.

658
00:32:56,225 --> 00:32:56,725
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

659
00:32:57,910 --> 00:32:59,130
Vikram Saxena: So that's another way.

660
00:32:59,150 --> 00:33:02,390
And if you look at it, it's a
very interesting way you get

661
00:33:02,390 --> 00:33:04,020
discounts when you become a member.

662
00:33:04,030 --> 00:33:05,670
To become a member, you spend money.

663
00:33:05,690 --> 00:33:06,860
So it's a very interesting.

664
00:33:07,530 --> 00:33:10,670
Circle that goes in and you
just get hooked onto it.

665
00:33:10,805 --> 00:33:11,355
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, you do.

666
00:33:11,965 --> 00:33:12,195
Yeah.

667
00:33:12,670 --> 00:33:18,210
Vikram Saxena: And you somehow manage to
break free from that discount oriented

668
00:33:18,250 --> 00:33:21,220
business because discount oriented
business is good to get your customers

669
00:33:21,220 --> 00:33:25,890
on board, but sustainability becomes
a bit of a challenge in the long run.

670
00:33:26,105 --> 00:33:26,465
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

671
00:33:26,555 --> 00:33:27,095
Yeah, it does.

672
00:33:27,255 --> 00:33:28,025
Yeah, you're totally right.

673
00:33:29,165 --> 00:33:31,955
Totally it's a, it is brilliant
and I Vikram, I've really

674
00:33:31,955 --> 00:33:33,035
enjoyed talking about this.

675
00:33:33,085 --> 00:33:35,755
So you omnichannel, right?

676
00:33:37,115 --> 00:33:41,820
If I'm just starting out in e-commerce,
I get how, if I am the fragrance shop and

677
00:33:41,825 --> 00:33:46,745
I've got 250 stores around the UK I need
to be thinking about omnichannel, right?

678
00:33:46,745 --> 00:33:47,755
And I get that.

679
00:33:49,060 --> 00:33:52,850
If I'm just starting out but I have
a brick and mortar store, and I'm

680
00:33:52,850 --> 00:33:55,620
not just being online only, but
I've got a brick and mortar store

681
00:33:55,970 --> 00:33:59,670
how does it make sense for me to start
thinking about this, if that makes sense,

682
00:33:59,670 --> 00:34:03,940
what about the, can I call them the little
guy in a non disparaging way, but do you

683
00:34:03,940 --> 00:34:05,010
know what I mean the person where it's

684
00:34:05,090 --> 00:34:05,710
Vikram Saxena: I understand.

685
00:34:05,790 --> 00:34:08,420
Yeah, it's been, it's just one
or two stores, potentially.

686
00:34:08,420 --> 00:34:12,370
And we come across quite a few of them
as well, who have got just one or two

687
00:34:12,370 --> 00:34:14,210
stores, but they are still decent size.

688
00:34:14,230 --> 00:34:17,605
They're not, you know very small,
but now they're competing with

689
00:34:17,615 --> 00:34:19,265
the likes of the online world.

690
00:34:19,655 --> 00:34:21,225
So they struggle from that perspective.

691
00:34:22,185 --> 00:34:23,745
And I can really get that.

692
00:34:23,745 --> 00:34:28,095
So for them also, I think, you can
say whether it makes sense for me

693
00:34:28,095 --> 00:34:29,955
or not is not the right question.

694
00:34:30,515 --> 00:34:32,915
The right question is when
should I really go for it?

695
00:34:32,935 --> 00:34:34,765
Because it makes sense for everybody.

696
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:35,810
Matt Edmundson: Okay.

697
00:34:37,330 --> 00:34:38,740
So when should I go for it?

698
00:34:40,060 --> 00:34:40,600
I love that

699
00:34:40,825 --> 00:34:44,795
Vikram Saxena: The moment, you want
to start building customer loyalty

700
00:34:44,845 --> 00:34:50,225
and add that, personalization element
to it as well without getting creepy.

701
00:34:50,705 --> 00:34:55,445
Now, for example, you know what we've
done now, personalization, this is a very

702
00:34:55,455 --> 00:34:58,815
important clause that I always add, please
ensure that you're not getting to the

703
00:34:59,000 --> 00:34:59,750
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

704
00:35:00,175 --> 00:35:01,635
Vikram Saxena: Because
that puts people off,

705
00:35:01,925 --> 00:35:02,315
Matt Edmundson: yep,

706
00:35:03,299 --> 00:35:05,449
Vikram Saxena: a lot of times when
you're talking about something and you

707
00:35:05,449 --> 00:35:09,549
see an ad, something similar to that on
Facebook, it's just unbelievably creepy

708
00:35:10,049 --> 00:35:11,629
and you just hate it at that moment.

709
00:35:11,775 --> 00:35:12,345
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, you do.

710
00:35:12,349 --> 00:35:15,249
Vikram Saxena: So coming back to the
topic, basically what we did with

711
00:35:15,249 --> 00:35:17,629
Fragrance Shop right at the beginning
when we started off their omni

712
00:35:17,849 --> 00:35:21,459
channel solution, so we were capturing
significant amount of data from what,

713
00:35:21,869 --> 00:35:26,709
just like Google Analytics, we had built
a event hub system, which basically

714
00:35:26,729 --> 00:35:29,919
captures the complete event stream of
what customer does on your website.

715
00:35:30,165 --> 00:35:30,495
Matt Edmundson: Yep.

716
00:35:31,769 --> 00:35:34,569
Vikram Saxena: Now, that event stream,
when we start putting together in

717
00:35:34,569 --> 00:35:37,909
conjunction with, now whenever the
customer comes and buys from them,

718
00:35:38,049 --> 00:35:39,249
they capture their phone number.

719
00:35:39,659 --> 00:35:42,579
Now when you do e receipts,
typically customer will give

720
00:35:42,579 --> 00:35:44,049
you their email or phone number.

721
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:47,789
So we tie up that information from
a customer identity perspective.

722
00:35:48,579 --> 00:35:52,629
And whether it's mobile, web, or store.

723
00:35:52,879 --> 00:35:55,889
Now we've got the customer
identity sorted out more or less.

724
00:35:56,195 --> 00:35:56,585
Matt Edmundson: Yep.

725
00:35:56,964 --> 00:35:59,244
Vikram Saxena: And we can also do
it from a retrospective perspective.

726
00:35:59,564 --> 00:36:03,244
Let's say, somebody came onto
the website seven times before

727
00:36:03,244 --> 00:36:04,354
they actually made a purchase.

728
00:36:04,374 --> 00:36:07,904
So we could actually tie it back to the
first time that they came in because

729
00:36:07,904 --> 00:36:09,724
we log everything on that perspective.

730
00:36:10,114 --> 00:36:12,044
And all of that goes against
the customer history.

731
00:36:12,044 --> 00:36:15,874
Now customer may have created a ticket
in let's say Zendesk or whatever

732
00:36:15,874 --> 00:36:17,504
ticketing system that you may be using.

733
00:36:17,894 --> 00:36:19,284
All of that also comes in there.

734
00:36:19,434 --> 00:36:22,474
They may have posted a review
for you on Trustpilot or FIFO.

735
00:36:23,174 --> 00:36:25,654
That also we pull and bring
it all together in that one

736
00:36:25,654 --> 00:36:26,754
single customer profile.

737
00:36:27,394 --> 00:36:31,304
Now the moment, now if you look at
it, the amount of data that is sitting

738
00:36:31,304 --> 00:36:35,624
across the globe and across the internet
of your brand, it's just phenomenal.

739
00:36:36,674 --> 00:36:40,754
The moment you bring it all together,
it starts to make sense and it gives

740
00:36:40,764 --> 00:36:42,134
you a little bit of sense of customers.

741
00:36:42,714 --> 00:36:45,864
Now the way Fragrance Shop utilizes,
and I think every store should

742
00:36:45,864 --> 00:36:49,804
potentially do that, is Basically,
what they did the moment customer gave

743
00:36:49,804 --> 00:36:53,294
their phone numbers, I can see that
you've been buying from us quite a lot.

744
00:36:53,644 --> 00:36:55,644
We are happy to offer
you a 5 percent discount.

745
00:36:56,144 --> 00:37:00,224
So they started schemes initially
when the membership wasn't there, or,

746
00:37:00,284 --> 00:37:03,314
there's this new launch of product
Chanel that you bought last time.

747
00:37:03,364 --> 00:37:04,984
We've now got a new version of that.

748
00:37:05,784 --> 00:37:09,904
So these things, and when you get
accessibility of that data right in

749
00:37:09,924 --> 00:37:12,514
there, at, in the hands of the people.

750
00:37:13,019 --> 00:37:17,509
Who are interacting with the customer face
to face that just makes a huge difference.

751
00:37:18,955 --> 00:37:19,285
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

752
00:37:19,389 --> 00:37:21,959
Vikram Saxena: course that requires
a little bit of training as to, what

753
00:37:22,069 --> 00:37:25,629
level of conversation you should
be having in terms of what level of

754
00:37:25,659 --> 00:37:28,309
information you should be sharing with
the customer that you know about them.

755
00:37:28,745 --> 00:37:29,045
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

756
00:37:30,685 --> 00:37:31,735
But yeah.

757
00:37:32,555 --> 00:37:32,825
Yeah.

758
00:37:33,955 --> 00:37:35,425
, that's a whole other episode right there.

759
00:37:35,425 --> 00:37:35,755
Vikram.

760
00:37:35,755 --> 00:37:36,235
I'm not gonna lie.

761
00:37:36,449 --> 00:37:36,809
Vikram Saxena: Yes.

762
00:37:37,589 --> 00:37:37,919
Yeah.

763
00:37:38,705 --> 00:37:39,645
Matt Edmundson: A whole other episode.

764
00:37:40,835 --> 00:37:41,875
When should I go for it?

765
00:37:42,925 --> 00:37:49,335
It's a great question and I love how this
applies to folks who are just starting out

766
00:37:49,375 --> 00:37:54,075
I love how this applies to the fragrance
shop and I love how this applies to

767
00:37:54,075 --> 00:37:59,555
everybody in between Vikram, listen, I've
loved talking to you, man, and people

768
00:37:59,555 --> 00:38:03,115
watching the video, I'm sorry, your video
froze for quite a lot of it, but we could

769
00:38:03,115 --> 00:38:04,615
hear you just fine, which has been great.

770
00:38:06,625 --> 00:38:10,485
If people want to reach out, if they want
to find out more about BetterCommerce,

771
00:38:10,505 --> 00:38:14,015
about some of the stuff that you
do, what's a good way to do that?

772
00:38:14,989 --> 00:38:16,969
Vikram Saxena: So they can
reach out to us on Twitter.

773
00:38:16,979 --> 00:38:20,789
That's BetterCommerce_ they can
reach out to me on LinkedIn.

774
00:38:21,129 --> 00:38:24,339
I'm searchable very easily
on LinkedIn by vikramsaxena.

775
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,359
They can also reach out on my email.

776
00:38:26,359 --> 00:38:28,369
That's vikram@bettercommerce.io

777
00:38:28,965 --> 00:38:29,615
Matt Edmundson: very good.

778
00:38:30,085 --> 00:38:30,585
Very good.

779
00:38:30,585 --> 00:38:33,035
We will, of course, put all of
those links in the show notes.

780
00:38:33,035 --> 00:38:36,425
Now, Vikram, I have two more
questions before we wrap this up.

781
00:38:36,935 --> 00:38:40,135
Question number one, you've
used this, you've used the

782
00:38:40,135 --> 00:38:41,445
phrase a lot, and I'm curious.

783
00:38:41,925 --> 00:38:44,765
I wonder if you could just explain
it a little bit, what you mean,

784
00:38:44,765 --> 00:38:46,035
just for those that might not know.

785
00:38:46,125 --> 00:38:48,835
And that's the phrase Headless
Commerce or Headless eCommerce.

786
00:38:48,865 --> 00:38:50,435
What do you mean by that phrase?

787
00:38:51,549 --> 00:38:55,179
Vikram Saxena: So headless commerce,
what it means in a very layman term.

788
00:38:55,179 --> 00:38:59,539
So today, a few years ago, if you
ask me In simpler terms, from a

789
00:38:59,539 --> 00:39:03,089
technology perspective itself, let's
say earlier, the way we were building

790
00:39:03,089 --> 00:39:06,719
our solutions, they were more like
there's a server and there's a client.

791
00:39:06,839 --> 00:39:10,579
Now client is typically, and then
there is a browser, which is basically

792
00:39:10,579 --> 00:39:11,959
accessing that client as well.

793
00:39:11,999 --> 00:39:14,339
Now, sorry, client is your browser.

794
00:39:14,759 --> 00:39:18,189
Now, if you look at it, how the
devices and the form factors have

795
00:39:18,189 --> 00:39:20,169
evolved over a period of time, right?

796
00:39:20,229 --> 00:39:22,089
Earlier, the only channel was website.

797
00:39:22,089 --> 00:39:25,599
So people just build solutions, which
were sitting on a server, and they

798
00:39:25,599 --> 00:39:26,809
would be rendered on the browser itself.

799
00:39:27,265 --> 00:39:30,195
Now, over a period of time, what
has happened is you've got mobile

800
00:39:30,415 --> 00:39:34,755
devices, you've got Apple TVs
and fire stakes and all of that.

801
00:39:35,125 --> 00:39:39,345
So your form factors have just
multiplied in the forms and shapes that

802
00:39:39,365 --> 00:39:41,595
we had, none of us had ever imagined.

803
00:39:42,075 --> 00:39:45,475
And it's almost like living through
a sci fi film like we used to see

804
00:39:45,475 --> 00:39:47,825
in the likes of Minority Report.

805
00:39:48,485 --> 00:39:48,805
Matt Edmundson: True.

806
00:39:48,865 --> 00:39:49,435
So true.

807
00:39:49,465 --> 00:39:49,885
Yeah.

808
00:39:50,055 --> 00:39:50,555
Vikram Saxena: Yeah.

809
00:39:50,745 --> 00:39:54,835
So now what has happened is now if
I wanted to incorporate the similar

810
00:39:54,875 --> 00:39:58,325
elements, now I was offering I had
a promotion in them, hypothetically.

811
00:39:58,745 --> 00:40:01,355
And I was offering 10 percent
and all the logic for promotion

812
00:40:01,355 --> 00:40:02,995
engine was built into my website.

813
00:40:03,375 --> 00:40:06,365
Now if I wanted to do the same thing
on my mobile app, I would have to

814
00:40:06,365 --> 00:40:10,155
incorporate almost similar stuff
into my mobile app technology as

815
00:40:10,285 --> 00:40:14,255
Now if I was building an app
for my Apple TV or Fire Stick,

816
00:40:14,315 --> 00:40:15,445
I would have to build it again.

817
00:40:16,395 --> 00:40:21,175
Now instead of doing all of that,
what Headless did was took all the

818
00:40:21,175 --> 00:40:22,755
complication and all the logic.

819
00:40:23,100 --> 00:40:29,630
On the server side and created
another lightweight layer, which

820
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,450
became your presentation layer and
presentation layer pretty much is

821
00:40:33,610 --> 00:40:35,410
dependent upon the form factor.

822
00:40:35,410 --> 00:40:40,430
So then you build something specific
to that form factor without hard coding

823
00:40:40,430 --> 00:40:43,600
or without putting any logic in there.

824
00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:45,060
Yeah.

825
00:40:46,070 --> 00:40:51,540
Now this form of technology or
this approach has always existed.

826
00:40:52,070 --> 00:40:54,450
Basically, what you're sitting
on the backend is primarily

827
00:40:54,470 --> 00:40:58,650
API, which would just take plain
data and return data structures.

828
00:40:59,710 --> 00:41:02,660
This has always been there, I've
been writing code with APIs.

829
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:07,240
We built a system back in 2003
with API first approach, but it

830
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:09,100
wasn't called headless at the time.

831
00:41:09,190 --> 00:41:13,740
And then gradually, of course, there
is a lot of engine that went behind it.

832
00:41:14,290 --> 00:41:19,560
And then gradually this word was coined,
I think back in 2013, 2014, when it

833
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:20,794
became quite a bit of a buzzword.

834
00:41:21,555 --> 00:41:24,145
Driven by marketing, but
essentially I think it's primarily

835
00:41:24,145 --> 00:41:26,065
just API driven architectures.

836
00:41:26,570 --> 00:41:30,670
And all the logic and complications
sitting in the APIs, then your front end

837
00:41:30,670 --> 00:41:36,040
or your front end of presentation layer
is a lightweight presentation designed

838
00:41:36,050 --> 00:41:40,080
for the specific form factor that you're
targeting or your consumers are using.

839
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,740
I hope I have not got too
technical and it's a simple enough.

840
00:41:44,250 --> 00:41:44,810
Matt Edmundson: No, I get it.

841
00:41:44,810 --> 00:41:48,330
It's, in effect, what you're saying is
the server does the work and it will, it's

842
00:41:48,330 --> 00:41:51,080
a lightweight display mechanism, whether
you're using a mobile, whether you're

843
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,660
using a laptop, whether you're using
Apple TV, it just seamlessly works now.

844
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:59,240
And it's a, it's much, the other
thing about headless commerce is

845
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:02,170
actually, it's in some respects,
it's much faster and lightweight

846
00:42:02,170 --> 00:42:04,090
to, to develop in as well, isn't it?

847
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:05,670
Which enables you to.

848
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:09,310
Do things like, in a matter of
weeks, create a system whereby

849
00:42:09,310 --> 00:42:12,630
all of your shops become mini
warehouses and stuff like that.

850
00:42:12,630 --> 00:42:14,360
There's a lot of advantages to it, right?

851
00:42:14,370 --> 00:42:15,310
A lot of advantages.

852
00:42:15,460 --> 00:42:15,770
Vikram Saxena: Yeah.

853
00:42:16,330 --> 00:42:17,200
Matt Edmundson: No, thank you for that.

854
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,560
My second question, my final question,
we are starting this brand new feature.

855
00:42:20,990 --> 00:42:24,330
Okay, so Vikram, you're actually
the first person, you're the

856
00:42:24,330 --> 00:42:25,950
guinea pig in this whole thing.

857
00:42:26,510 --> 00:42:27,540
You get to be the first.

858
00:42:27,540 --> 00:42:29,350
I don't know if that's a good thing
or whether that's a bad thing, but

859
00:42:29,390 --> 00:42:30,920
Vikram Saxena: I love being a guinea pig.

860
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,265
Yeah.

861
00:42:33,650 --> 00:42:36,140
Matt Edmundson: we are doing this
thing where I live stream I'm going

862
00:42:36,140 --> 00:42:39,620
to start live streaming on the
eCommerce Podcast Instagram channel.

863
00:42:40,170 --> 00:42:43,810
And one of the things that I will
be live streaming is Matt's Q& A.

864
00:42:44,460 --> 00:42:49,040
So I get to answer, so I need
from you a question that I can

865
00:42:49,050 --> 00:42:50,820
answer on that live stream.

866
00:42:51,690 --> 00:42:55,130
And I'm going to record you, I'll
play the recording of you asking the

867
00:42:55,130 --> 00:42:57,210
question and then I'm going to answer it.

868
00:42:57,210 --> 00:43:01,390
So I need it, what's one question from
you for me that I can answer on that, does

869
00:43:01,390 --> 00:43:03,020
that make sense if I worded that well?

870
00:43:03,070 --> 00:43:03,710
I hope I have.

871
00:43:04,020 --> 00:43:04,760
Okay, good.

872
00:43:05,050 --> 00:43:08,040
Vikram Saxena: I need to ask you a
question that you want to answer on.

873
00:43:08,515 --> 00:43:09,115
Instagram

874
00:43:09,380 --> 00:43:09,950
Matt Edmundson: Exactly.

875
00:43:10,010 --> 00:43:11,270
And don't, be kind.

876
00:43:14,665 --> 00:43:16,285
Vikram Saxena: did you
mean don't be kind or

877
00:43:16,350 --> 00:43:17,180
Matt Edmundson: No be kind.

878
00:43:17,180 --> 00:43:17,370
Yeah.

879
00:43:19,940 --> 00:43:23,300
Don't ask me, don't ask me
like how do you, I don't know.

880
00:43:23,300 --> 00:43:26,940
I've got to answer it in 60 seconds
in a lot of ways, but yeah, be kind.

881
00:43:28,815 --> 00:43:29,355
Vikram Saxena: No worries.

882
00:43:29,855 --> 00:43:33,520
I'm gonna ask you the most talked
about subject that is today.

883
00:43:33,570 --> 00:43:37,650
What do you think is gonna happen
to the AI and how do you think

884
00:43:37,650 --> 00:43:41,090
that is gonna shape the world of
e-commerce in the coming years?

885
00:43:41,655 --> 00:43:42,305
Matt Edmundson: Very good.

886
00:43:42,725 --> 00:43:48,025
Okay, so if you want to listen to me
rabbit on about AI and eCommerce, make

887
00:43:48,025 --> 00:43:51,795
sure you follow us on our Instagram
channel, our brand new, we're slow to

888
00:43:51,825 --> 00:43:54,705
put the party here, we've been doing
the eCommerce Podcast five years, we

889
00:43:54,705 --> 00:43:58,565
have literally just launched or started
to launch our Instagram channel, a

890
00:43:58,745 --> 00:44:02,745
little bit behind, but do follow us on
Instagram at eCommerce Podcast and yeah,

891
00:44:02,795 --> 00:44:04,065
I'll be answering the question on there.

892
00:44:04,245 --> 00:44:04,705
Vikram, listen.

893
00:44:05,735 --> 00:44:09,965
Absolute legend man, really appreciate
you coming on to the show and and talking

894
00:44:09,965 --> 00:44:13,915
about what you guys are doing, talking
about Headless Commerce and and just

895
00:44:13,945 --> 00:44:18,215
some of the ideas that you guys have been
playing with the with the fragrance shop

896
00:44:18,215 --> 00:44:22,495
has just been absolutely brilliant and
yeah, I've got pages of notes which is

897
00:44:22,495 --> 00:44:26,665
always a good sign, so super huge thanks
my friend, it's been an absolute blessed.

898
00:44:27,820 --> 00:44:28,660
Vikram Saxena: Thank you so much, Matt.

899
00:44:28,660 --> 00:44:31,150
It's been absolute pleasure
and delight to talk to you.

900
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:32,290
Matt Edmundson: Fantastic.

901
00:44:32,590 --> 00:44:35,970
Just a reminder again we will of
course link to Vikram's info in

902
00:44:35,970 --> 00:44:39,770
the show notes, which you can get
for free along with the transcript

903
00:44:39,770 --> 00:44:41,680
on our website ecommercepodcast.

904
00:44:41,700 --> 00:44:44,230
net and of course if you sign up
to the newsletter which I talked

905
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:47,850
about at the start, you will have
that coming straight to your inbox.

906
00:44:47,940 --> 00:44:50,220
Totally free, totally
no dramas whatsoever.

907
00:44:50,820 --> 00:44:52,120
It's going to be coming straight to you.

908
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:56,540
So there you go, a huge thanks
to Vikram for joining me today.

909
00:44:56,900 --> 00:45:01,320
If you haven't done so already, do check
out The eCommerce cohort, the sponsors

910
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:07,140
of this show because I am sure they
would it's, they me we're part of it.

911
00:45:07,140 --> 00:45:08,670
I'm sure they would love to hear from you.

912
00:45:08,970 --> 00:45:11,730
And if you haven't done so already,
make sure you follow the eCommerce

913
00:45:11,730 --> 00:45:14,220
podcast wherever you get your
podcast from because we've got yet

914
00:45:14,220 --> 00:45:16,035
more great conversations lined up.

915
00:45:16,380 --> 00:45:18,150
And I don't want you to miss.

916
00:45:18,150 --> 00:45:22,255
And in case no one has told you
yet today, let me be the first.

917
00:45:22,255 --> 00:45:23,405
You are awesome.

918
00:45:23,445 --> 00:45:25,595
Yes, you are created awesome.

919
00:45:25,645 --> 00:45:28,165
It's just a burden you've got to bear.

920
00:45:28,165 --> 00:45:29,275
Vikram has to bear it.

921
00:45:29,585 --> 00:45:30,395
I've got to bear it.

922
00:45:30,845 --> 00:45:31,985
You've got to bear it as well.

923
00:45:32,115 --> 00:45:33,055
It's just the way it is.

924
00:45:33,235 --> 00:45:36,875
Now the eCommerce Podcast is
produced by PodJunction, the

925
00:45:36,875 --> 00:45:38,425
new name for Aurion Media.

926
00:45:38,695 --> 00:45:43,115
You can find our entire archive of
episodes on your favourite podcast app.

927
00:45:43,135 --> 00:45:46,385
The wonderful team that makes
this show possible is the fabulous

928
00:45:46,385 --> 00:45:47,965
Sadaf Beynon and Tanya Hutsuliak.

929
00:45:48,345 --> 00:45:51,625
Our theme music was written by Josh
Edmundson, and as I said, you can

930
00:45:51,625 --> 00:45:55,755
find the transcript and show notes
on the website at eCommercePodcast.

931
00:45:55,865 --> 00:45:56,325
net.

932
00:45:56,865 --> 00:45:59,125
But that's it from me,
that's it from Vikram.

933
00:45:59,135 --> 00:46:00,755
Thank you so much for joining us.

934
00:46:01,045 --> 00:46:02,985
Have a fantastic week
wherever you are in the world.

935
00:46:03,285 --> 00:46:04,075
I'll see you next time.

936
00:46:04,435 --> 00:46:04,905
Bye for now.