Now the amount of analysis you can do of your rides, the amount that you can see during your workouts is just at a whole nother level.

And the one hand, you know, I love it.

I'm a data geek.

It's great to look at.

There's a lot of ways you can use it for, for really good training.

On the other hand, I'm sure you've talked about this a hundred times.

There is that potential to really get caught in the weeds and lose the big picture.

And so it's finding that balance, I would say is the big challenge right now.

Hello and welcome once again to the Tridock Podcast.

This is the February 21, 2025 episode and I'm your host Jeff Sankoff, the tridoc an emergency physician, triathlon coach and multiple Ironman finisher.

Coming to you as always from beautiful sunny Denver, Colorado.

The voice you heard at the top of the program was that of my guest this episode, Trevor Connor.

Trevor is the CEO of the Paleo Diet and the co founder and CEO of Fast Talk Labs.

He's also the co host of the very popular Fast Talk podcast as put out by that group.

And he joins me to chat about his long career in cycling and how he sees the future of endurance sport, particularly cycling, evolving, as well as what lies in store for Fast Talk Labs.

And that's coming up in just a little while.

Before we get to that conversation, Coach Juliet Hockman is going to join me to answer yet another listener question on the Medical Mailbag.

This time around we are going to be examining the science behind the claims being made to suggest that hydrogen rich water can cure pretty much all that ails you and improve your exercise performance as well.

We're gonna find out if adding this gas is really all its proponents would have you believe, or is it just more hot air?

We'll give you our take.

Before all of that, I wanted to take a moment to chat briefly about the recently released USA Triathlon Report on 2024, the year in Review.

The review that was put out by USAT recently begins with a high level overview of American athletes successes on the global stage.

At the elite level, While of course there were hopes for individual medals in triathlon at the Olympics in Paris, that did not come to pass, but the success of the mixed relay team and of several para triathletes at the Paralympic were rightly highlighted.

For me though, the most interesting and important parts of the report related more to expanding membership and participation than they did to the successes of elite athletes like Taylor Knipp and her confreres.

USA Triathlon membership grew to 302,000 in 2024 and this marks a 1.6% increase from 2023.

The average participation per event also reached an all time high with 354 participants per 120 per race.

Although total participation slightly declined from 287,000 in 2023 to over 280,000 in 2024, these numbers still reflect the highest engagement with triathlon since pre Covid times.

Grassroots racing experienced significant growth with over 3,600 races held across 1,034 events nationwide.

Shorter distance races and diverse multisport formats including Aquathon and Duathlon contributed to this expansion.

With the continuous conversation ongoing about the imminent demise of our sport, this report to me demonstrates more than just a glimmer of hope that much of the consternation about the health of triathlon is maybe, maybe just a little bit overblown.

Yes, there are certainly still threats to triathlon and the long term health is anything but completely assured.

But seeing stability and even growth in membership numbers as reported by usat, especially when seeing growth of smaller local events and participation and investment in youth, all of those things give me a lot of reason for optimism.

When you add to that the recent announcement of sellouts at large Ironman branded events including Oceanside and Chattanooga 70.3 and the Ironman in Texas, I can't help but think that we are on a sure footing than maybe we have been for a little while.

Of course, time will tell.

What do you think?

I hope that you'll leave a comment in the private Facebook group and join the conversation about this specific topic there.

Do you think triathlon is still in danger?

Is this a sport in decline or have we reached sort of an equilibrium of types or maybe even a period of growth?

If you're not a member of the Facebook group, please do search for the podcast on that platform.

Answer the three very easy questions and I will grant you admittance so that you can comment and ask questions that you might want to have answered on the Medical Mailbag before we get to the Medical Mailbag for this episode, I want to ask once again that if you haven't already done so, please consider leaving a rating and a review wherever you download this content.

It is so incredibly helpful to making this podcast more visible among the veritable forest of Triathlon related shows and it can really, really help others find the show.

Recently a few people did leave reviews on Apple Apple podcasts and I want to give them a shout out.

Try hard Ron in Pueblo wrote.

Thank you for all of the research based information and insight.

I don't miss a week and love listening when doing my workouts.

You are entertaining, informative and make me feel smarter about my training.

AJ Thrifty and these are obviously Apple usernames that people have entered.

I don't know what their actual names are otherwise I would give them a call out.

AJ Thrifty wrote, Dr.

Jeff presents a balanced and fair view of what training and supplemental modalities can help or harm triathletes.

This is a fantastic resource for anyone just starting their triathlon journey to experienced vets and finally, an anonymous listener wrote On Apple Podcasts, Jeff has done a tremendous job of putting together episode after episode of legit science based content to help endurance athletes be their best without being suckered into marketing hype on supplements and gimmicks.

His guest interviews are also excellent and focused on triathlon.

Thank you to all of those of you who have contributed reviews like that.

I am eternally grateful for them.

If you want to give specific feedback that is perhaps negative in a way, and maybe you want to give some constructive criticisms, please don't be shy.

Reach out to me@tridocloud.com I am always looking for ways to improve the program and my listeners are the best source of that kind of feedback.

Hey there podcast listeners.

Are you a fan of the show?

Well, of course you are.

You're here, right?

But are you the kind of fan who'd like to get even more try talk podcasts coming your way in the form of your own private feed with bonus episodes that come out about every month or so?

Well, you can do that.

And you've heard me say how for about the price of a cup of coffee per month, you could become a Patreon supporter that gets you access to those bonus episodes.

And if you subscribe at the $10 per month level, you get a thank you gift in the form of this pretty cool BOCO Tridock Podcast Running Hat.

I'd love to have you along.

So many other listeners have joined like Justin, like Stephanie, like Layla, and many others, and I'd love to have you join their ranks and become a Patreon supporter who shows their love for this podcast by helping defray some of the costs that go into making this show and bringing it to you on a bimonthly basis.

So head on over to my Patreon site, which is www.patreon.com tridockpodcast and see how you can contribute and get access to those bonus episodes.

I'd love to have you along for the ride.

It's been a great journey so far.

There's a lot more great stuff to come.

As always, I thank you just for considering and thanks for being here.

I'm joined once again by my friend and colleague, Juliette Hockman.

Juliet, how are you?

I am great.

How are you?

I'm doing fantastic, although I am just thawing out from a long run in the frigid temperatures.

My goodness, February has been very cold here.

How's it going out in Hood River?

Has it been as chilly?

Not as cold as where you are, but definitely very wet.

We're going through all the possibilities of moisture falling from the sky in this day alone.

But I decided today I would get out and embrace winter rather than bitch about it.

So I went out and skied for a little while and I'm glad I did.

Oh, good for you.

Good for you.

I like to think about my our friend Kelly, who is down in Brisbane, Australia right now luxuriating in the final days of summer.

And I always think about this time of year when I'm hating February, thinking about how ha her summer's coming to an end and our spring is going to be starting.

Yeah, she gets a badge.

She gets me back in September.

So anyways, if Juliet's here and we're having our little.

Our what are we had tata tats about the weather, it must mean that the medical mailbag is here once again for another segment, which means that we are going to bring you another listener question.

And Juliet, what question do we have?

Who's it coming from and what will we be discussing on this segment?

This question comes to us from a listener and life sport athlete Alex Rademko.

Alex, thanks so much for being curious and sending this in.

Alex had been reading about hydrogen enriched water and he wanted to know what we had found out about it.

Doing a quick Google search before this episode.

It is all over the press.

Easy to learn about for sure.

But I know that Jeff and his fine team have gone down the rabbit hole on this one.

So what can you tell us about hydrogen enriched water and its effect on performance for endurance sports?

So the first thing I'll tell you is that when Alex so Alex is one of my athletes who I coach.

Alex is actually getting set for his first ever 70.3 coming up in just a couple of short weeks in Campeche in Mexico.

So he is in the final bits of his training and he's been doing amazing work.

So I think he's gonna have a good debut on the 70.3 circuit.

But when Alex reached out to me and asked me this question, my immediate response was, you do know that hydrogen is an integral component of water.

In fact, there are two pieces of hydrogen in every molecule of water.

I thought for sure he was pulling my leg.

But no, you astutely noted when you did the quick Google search, I did the same and found out, oh, this is a thing.

Yep.

So I think carbonated water, but instead of using carbon dioxide, you use hydrogen gas.

That's essentially what hydrogen rich water is.

Actually, the second thing I thought of was when he said this to me, I was like, what are you talking?

Like heavy water where they use deuterium instead of.

No, not quite the same.

No, this is like hydrogen gas infused water.

And I started going down the rabbit hole like you said, and shout out to Nina Takashima, who was the intern who helped me out with the research on this particular episode.

And if you're wondering who Nina is, you should definitely pay attention to the newsletter that'll be coming out next week, because the next newsletter, the supplement form of this podcast, will come out on Friday and we'll have a feature all about Nina.

So if you're not already a subscriber, I hope you'll become one.

At any rate, Nina did some research and what we found out is basically the history of this is that hydrogen as a chemical is a very good electron acceptor.

It reduces substances.

That's a fancy way of saying it's a really good free radical scavenger.

So within living systems, as we've talked about many times, when we do a lot of exercise, when we are under stress from inflammation or anything like that, we form a lot of chemicals in the form of free radicals.

These are things that have an extra electron.

The most common one is oxygen.

It's called an oxygen, a super free radical in the form of an oxygen that's got this one little free electron that's sitting there.

And there are a lot of things that will scavenge free radicals, and hydrogen is just one of them.

Hydrogen just happens to be a very good acceptor.

And when hydrogen grabs onto one of these oxygens with its extra electron, it just forms water.

So it neutralizes that oxygen and forms substance that we all need and detoxifies those free radicals, but it can also detoxify other free radicals as well.

So scientists began to look at hydrogen and its reducing capacity in the test tube world, in the lab, and they started to do experiments on cell cultures, and they wanted to see how good hydrogen would be at detoxifying different kinds of problems, cancers, inflammatory processes, things like that.

And lo and behold, in the lab scenario, it works quite well.

Hydrogen actually does a pretty good job of neutralizing all of the different evil humors that are involved in various different physiologic processes.

So the next step becomes what happens if we give hydrogen to animals and to people and how do we do that and what will happen?

Unfortunately, as so often happens when we try to translate the lab work to work within humans, things don't always go in a straight line.

And as a result, there are quite a few papers that we were able to find.

And a lot of them are anecdotes, a lot of them are hinting at possible beneficial effects.

But very few really good studies and very few really earth shattering findings.

But let's dig in.

So the first of these is a paper that came out just last year.

It's called Hydrogen Water Health Benefits.

And this is, it's not really a paper, sorry.

This is more of an article that was on WebMD.

So like you said, Juliet, there are a zillion different things out there online about this.

Hydrogen water is one of these.

Alkaline water was all the rage a few years ago, I remember.

It seems to have been displaced by hydrogen water, which kind of is the hydro.

So hydrogen ions contribute to acidity, but molecular hydrogen, which is two hydrogen atoms bound to each other, do not contribute to acidity.

So it's not really the opposite of alkaline water.

But anyways, okay.

This was an article that looked at a host of different studies and summarized what was found.

And it turns out that hydrogen waters, when it's been given to patients with like liver cancer who are undergoing radiation therapy, comparing that to people who got placebo, the people who got hydrogen rich water seemed to have improvement when it came to the side effects of their radiation therapy.

They reported a lot of subjective improvements, things like decreased fatigue, decreased hair loss, some of the skin problems related to burns that you can see with radiation were better.

And they said their nausea, headaches and soreness related to their cancer also seemed to be a little bit improved.

This was a review article in the lay press, so I don't really have any true results, but I can just tell you that was a 30,000 foot view.

And there were other studies that have been done and very small studies that suggested that hydrogen rich water could improve inflammatory state, it could help with cholesterol.

There are even some studies that have suggested that the cytokine storm that we see in sepsis related to Covid could be attenuated using hydrogen.

So a lot of interesting ideas but nothing fleshed out with good science.

Another paper, and the title of this paper will probably give away a little bit about what's going on here.

Hydrogen Extra healthy or a Hoax?

A systematic review.

This is a paper that looks at like almost 600 articles that talks about hydrogenated water or hydrogen rich water or all kinds of different ways that hydrogen has been used and talks about the various things including health benefits and exercise.

So one of the things that hydrogen has been suggested to help with endurance performance is to attenuate fatigue and also especially to help with post exercise soreness and things like that because it will scavenge all of the negative things that you lactic acid and all of the all of the chemicals that are produced when you break down muscle from a really hard workout.

And some studies have suggested most of the studies done in this are by a particular individual by the name of Botek.

Sounds like a Czech name.

Bowtech.

B O T E K Sounds like a pharmaceutical company.

Yeah, it could be.

But anyways, this gentleman named Bowtech has done a lot of studies on this.

He has found that hydrogen rich water seems to help with ventilatory efficiency in cyclists.

He says that it reduces lactic acid buildup.

He has showed that it can help runners in endurance, particularly slow runners, if runners who have really good fitness and runners who already have really good performance don't seem to benefit from hydrogen rich water.

Which is odd because he says that well trained cyclists do.

But his results stand out because most other researchers don't seem to show the same thing.

At any rate, in this review paper, one of the problems that this review paper Hydrogen water extra healthy or a Hoax pointed out is that in many of these studies there's not any standardized protocol about how much hydrogen you should actually give.

And it's very hard to measure how much hydrogen people are taking.

And so you'll see hydrogen levels all over the place.

And the people who are getting benefit seem to not get the same dose.

So let me explain what I mean by that.

So they're giving hydrogen rich water in a concentration of about 2 parts per million in the water and then they give the same quantity of water.

So If I weighing 165 pounds drank this amount of water with hydrogen in it and then say my son Adam drank the same amount of water and then you test us both, we didn't get the same dose and many of these papers don't show a dose response.

So that's one of the things, whenever.

And I've talked about this in other things that we've looked at.

Whenever you have an agent, a chemical or a drug or whatever, and you want to prove that this drug is doing something, you would like to see the biological plausibility, which there is here because we said it's a free radical scavenger.

But you also want to see a dose response that the more you give, the more effect.

And most of these papers don't show that.

They.

They seem to be very scattered in terms of their response.

Let's talk for a second.

Like, when we're talking about hydrogen enriched water, I haven't taken chemistry since ninth grade.

Are we talking like H3O?

What are we.

What are we talking?

Like, in one extra molecule of hydrogen, you can get these hydrogen.

They make bombs out of hydrogen.

Things can blow up with hydrogen.

So what are we talking about here?

Hydrogen.

So water is H2O, which is two atoms of hydrogen, one atom of oxygen.

Hydrogen enriched water is still the same H2O, but now there's hydrogen gas added.

And hydrogen gas is diatomic hydrogen, which means it's H2.

So it's two atoms of hydrogen bound to each other.

And as I said before, when I said carbonated water.

So everybody's probably familiar with the SodaStream device that you can buy.

And when you buy the SodaStream device, you buy these canisters that have dry ice inside of them that's basically solidified carbon dioxide.

And when you liberate that carbon dioxide, it pressurizes your water and it causes some of that carbon dioxide to dissolve in the water.

And then when you open your bottle of water, that carbon dioxide starts to come out of solution in the form of those little bubbles.

That.

That's why we get petiton au petiton or bubbly water.

And all it is, it's just dissolved carbon dioxide in the water.

You can dissolve any gas in water, but different gases will have a different propensity to dissolve.

So when we dissolve nitrogen in a fluid in like water, like, that's why, for example, most beers have carbon dioxide in them, but Guinness has nitrogen.

And the bubbles in Guinness are very small.

They're totally different.

And it's because it's nitrogen gas instead of carbon dioxide.

When you do hydrogen gas, you don't tend to get the bubbling quite as much because hydrogen doesn't dissolve very well.

In order to get the bubbling, you have to dissolve a large amount of the gas in the water.

And then when you release the pressure, then that gas comes out.

Of the solution and forms these little bubbles.

But because hydrogen doesn't dissolve in water terribly well, then you can't get a huge saturated amount of hydrogen in the water.

And then therefore, when you release the pressure, you don't get all this bubbling.

There are a couple of different ways to get hydrogen dissolved in the water and you can buy these online.

There is a way to actually pressurize it with gas, but that obviously is very dangerous because we don't want to be sending pressurized hydrogen canisters in the mail.

As you mentioned, that is a bomb waiting to go off.

Anybody who wants to know what happens when hydrogen gets lit, just look at some vintage footage of the Hindenburg.

That's the most well known of the hydrogen gas explosions.

And the other way of doing it is to pass an electric current through water.

And when you do that, it's called electrolysis.

And what that does is it causes a reaction that breaks apart the water molecules and liberates oxygen gas and hydrogen gas.

So you can buy these bottles on the Internet.

They're very expensive.

Anywhere from like a hundred.

I think we saw 140.

I think.

Yeah, yeah, about 140 bucks.

But they go up to 300 bucks.

And you basically pour regular water into this canister and then you charge it with your USB and then you flip the switch and you see the water starts bubbling.

And what's happening is it's, you're creating oxygen and hydrogen in this bottle.

Because hydrogen doesn't tend to stay dissolved in the water.

You have to drink it right away because otherwise the hydrogen is just going to evaporate right off and go away.

You're not going to.

You can't make this stuff and store it.

It doesn't, it basically has to be drunk pretty much right away.

The other thing is like you're liberating pure oxygen and pure hydrogen gas in this little bottle.

So don't light any matches.

I don't, I don't think it's a large amount of gas.

Who knows?

I don't taking any chances.

Anyways, it's not inexpensive.

And we found a study that looked at swimmers.

This was a hydrogen rich water supplementation.

The title is misleading.

Promotes muscle recovery.

After two strenuous training exercises performed on the same day in elite fin swimmers.

Randomized double blind placebo controlled trial.

And basically what they suggested was that using hydrogen rich water seemed to promote some muscle recovery in elite athletes.

But that was hard to really justify based on what they actually showed in their results because again, they did not have a Good dose response.

So people were all over the place.

They also their recovery was a little bit hard to measure.

It seemed to be measured, it seemed to be based on their ability to repeat efforts.

But it, it was all over the place.

It was not the best study, but again a hint that maybe hydrogen water seems to do something.

Another one about hydrogen rich water to enhance exercise performance.

This one was a study that collected nine other studies and basically across the board, all over the place, Some studies that showed improvement in sprint times, another study showing no change at all.

I think one of the most important findings here was there was a study from 2022 which said this study observed no significant changes in race time, average race heart rate, rating of perceived exertion immediately after the race in any athlete who used hydrogen rich water.

And again, that's one study selected.

There are other studies in here in which they found some results that were positive.

A bunch of mix.

But I think hydrogen rich water now has been evaluated for over a decade and it's one of these things where if there was anything earth shattering, we would have seen it.

And it's not, there's no major signal here.

There's a study about why should you be drinking this?

And the take home what is hydrogen rich water?

Why should you be drinking it?

This was by a freelance health writer on a running site and basically her findings or her conclusions were there's really not enough research to endorse spending money on hydrogen rich water.

And ultimately hydrogen rich water is very similar to alkaline water in that it's probably not going to hurt you, but it's also probably not going to help.

And we've talked a lot about supplements and about things when we've talked in the past and it all boils down to this idea of how much are you paying?

Are you going to get any potential gains for what you're paying?

And a bottle of water, if you're buying bottled water, costs about 60 cents a bottle.

Hydrogen rich water, when you factor in all of the costs to make it is somewhere about $2.50 to $3 a bottle.

It's pretty expensive for no obvious great benefits.

There's, as I said, very small potential signals of benefit here.

But certainly after more than a decade of a lot of different studies, we haven't seen anything major come out yet.

And I think we've spent a lot of time, you and I, talking about where we want to focus our attention as athletes.

Do we want to go tiny little potential benefits or do we want to instead invest in ourselves and get more sleep and eat better and focus on better training and quality.

And to me, this is another thing that, look, if you want to use this, by all means, knock yourself out, but I just think you could be spending your time and effort on other things.

Right?

Yeah.

We've often talked about it's so easy to look for the quick and dirty silver bullet, but those are rare, let's just put it that way.

There's a couple of things that you found over the however many years of this podcast.

In fact, we are going to do that for the hundredth episode.

When is your 200th.

200Th.

200Th episode.

Yeah, this episode is 165, so we got a little.

Wait till then.

Oh, okay.

All right.

But we will be doing that.

We'll be doing that for LifeSport.

Right.

We have a chalk talk coming up where I'll be talking about that.

So that'll be the intermediary.

But Juliet, you and I were talking before we started recording that.

I'm finding more and more there's this gravitation to these very kind of peripheral.

They're not really pseudoscience because there is science behind hydrogen and what it can do.

But it's amazing how you get this kernel of truth and this kernel of scientific study and people just run with it and take it to the bank and make gobs and gobs of cash off it because there are so many people out there who are just looking for answers and looking for ways to improve their well being and improve their life.

And I'm not sure why it is or what it is about this point in time of where we are that makes us all so susceptible to this.

Social media definitely is one of the ills that promote that I think is to blame.

But as much as a civilization, we have gotten smarter because we've got hundreds of years of learning experience that we've built on to get to where we are now.

Geez, we send people into space, we do all of these things and yet we still fall victim to latching onto stuff like this.

That doesn't really.

And I don't know.

Do you have any thoughts about why we're always looking at these things?

I think that in general, people have less time than they used to and so there's less time to train, have less time to do the basics and are looking for the quick fix.

And in everything, not just in training, I think the social media, I think that's correct.

Because I mean, look, if you're a professional triathlete and you're looking for that extra 1%.

You're looking for 5 watts, right?

Yeah.

And this is your whole job.

You might be really searching around the edges for this particular training plan or this bike position in the wind tunnel or this nutritional supplement that'll make you feel better, et cetera.

But most age.

But I would argue, and I think you would agree that the huge majority of age groupers, the best thing that we can do, and you're an age grouper, I'm an age grouper, so I'm not dissing age groupers.

We're age groupers.

The best thing that we can do is consistent training day in, day out, year in, year out, building, building to get to the performance goals that we've set for ourselves.

And so that extra one degree in the wind tunnel that might cost us $20,000 to ascertain is not going to make a whit of difference for me when for me, if I could just run more consistently, that's going to make a bigger difference.

Or for Joe over here, who if he picked up two minutes in transition because he practices them, then that's going to be better than that one want or whatever it is that you might find in the wind tunnel.

So I think that we see the pros testing this and testing that, and the pros have to have a social media presence.

That's part of the deal.

It's part of their business.

And so they're talking about this supplement or this position or this product or whatever.

And of course age groupers are going to look at that and say, oh, I'm going to try that, because Lionel tries that or Paula tries that or fill in the blank, whatever athlete it is.

I think that because information is more easily a spread through social media and it's.

You're just, we're just scrolling through and seeing what people are doing that people are more willing to try more different types of things.

When as we started this conversation, day by day, what we really need to be doing is consistent training day in, day out, eating better, getting more sleep, taking care of our mental health.

That's a theme that we've come back to frequently.

This idea of the antelope versus mice.

Right.

You could spend all your effort chasing after a mouse, but what you really need, what we really need, because we are age groupers who have not reached our maximum potential, we need to be looking for the antelope.

If you get to the point where there are no more antelope, that's when you focus on the mice.

Right.

So that's A theme we've come back to over and over again.

And I think that is, that's important to restate.

But I think there's also this.

I think there's also this thing, and I know you and I both feel it because we're both in the same age group.

And that is, as we've gotten older, it's harder to recover, it's harder to train at the same intensity that we did not that long ago.

We find we're getting injured more frequently, and we're always looking.

And I think we fall victim to this just like everybody else.

We're always looking for something to try and help us stay healthy, to try and help us be more resilient.

And the reality is there's probably no magic bullets.

There are a few things that we can try.

I have tried this year incorporating more stretching.

I know that's something that you're really big on.

I'm not doing it because I think it's going to make me more injury free, because I know the research suggests it doesn't, but I got to tell you, it makes me feel a lot better in the mornings.

I don't feel quite as stiff, but yeah, I think it's just the frustration of the fact that we are all, like you said, we're busy.

We do so many things, we have so many things, demands on our time, so many demands on us.

And if there's any possible way to get a shortcut.

And that's really what most supplements are, right?

They're short, they're.

They're viewed.

We probably don't think of them that way, but that's what they are.

It's.

We think by taking something, it's going to make us train, race or recover better.

And that's why we take them.

And the reality is probably not going to.

You also just said this really interesting thing about.

So you and I are in the same age group.

I think that most people know we're in the 55 to 59 or.

What is it, 50, 50.

That's it.

We don't have to narrow it down anymore.

And I think that a lot of athletes discover triathlon in middle age, right?

And so at the beginning, they see these phenomenal gains, right?

Their power numbers go up.

If they haven't come from a background of running, they might break PR, they might break their 5k PR and their 10k and their half marathon.

And it's really exciting.

They're swimming.

If they didn't grow up, swimming will get better and better.

Right?

And so that's really exciting that here you are in your 40s and your 50s and you're still making these gains.

Right.

But there is a tipping point.

My fastest 5k ever, I was 50.

I am never seeing those numbers again.

Right.

But I only realized that this year I'm going out and doing these fart lick runs and I'm looking at the paces, I'm running and I'm thinking, oh, my God, I am never running this.

And that was only seven years ago.

Right.

And so I think that there is a tipping point.

Until about two years ago, I could ride with any woman in my area, no problem.

And now I'm finding that I'm beginning to slide down the other side.

And I think that's hard.

And so we're trying to hold on to, as you say, we're.

It takes more to stay in the game.

It takes more stretching, it takes more pt.

It takes more gosh, I was just out cross country skiing and I swear to God, I fell in the snow and I couldn't get up.

It was deep snow.

But I finally reached out to my friend, I said, you're gonna have to pull me up.

I can't get up.

And so I do think you begin to feel the deceleration of everything.

Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah.

But the other thing is, and I know we focused a lot on the athletes, but.

Right.

My question is almost bigger than that and I.

We're not gonna have time to answer it here.

And I don't think there is an answer.

But it's not just athletes that gravitate to stuff like hydrogen rich water.

It's society in general.

It's all over the Internet because it's not just going to athletes being marketed to everybody as a, as the latest and greatest panacea, that's.

That will fix all that ails you.

And there's no evidence that it's going to do anything except set you back a couple of hundred bucks for the bottle and then who knows how much more for whatever it is you need to keep the bottle working.

And I don't know, I just.

But you and I compare notes all the time.

You'll have an athlete or I'll have an athlete who tries or goes and does something, either takes this supplement or goes for this special treatment or whatever it is.

And you and I share stories on this and, and at the end of the day, as long as no harm done, if people want to go and do these and it makes them feel better and it makes them feel like they're doing something to preserve their health or push off aging just a little bit more or whatever it is.

Look, some people go and buy a new Jaguar.

Yeah.

Some people, yeah, I don't know.

Bide bling, whatever it is.

And so it, at the end of the day, people get to choose and your job is just to say, okay, but it's probably not helping you.

Yeah, yeah.

And we're in.

We're about to start a string of episodes where we're going to be talking about these kinds of things.

I think that's why I'm attuned to it right now, because I've talked to both of the interns about the next couple of subjects and they're both in this sort of realm.

So.

Okay, as you'll see as time comes up, well, that is the conclusion of another episode.

Thanks Alex, for sending in that question.

And thank you to all the readers who or readers, all the listeners and readers of the newsletter who have sent in questions for the upcoming episodes.

If you have a question you'd like us to answer on the Medical Mailbag, there are numerous ways that you could submit them.

Probably the easiest one is to drop me a line.

Send me an email@tridocloud.com you could drop it into the Facebook group that is set up specifically for listeners of this podcast.

You can search for Tridoc podcast on Facebook.

Answer the three easy questions.

I'll grant you admittance.

You can join the conversation and ask your questions there and hear it answered here on the Medical Mailbag on a segment in the future.

Juliet, thanks so much for joining me.

This is another good conversation.

I look forward to chatting with you again on the next episode.

Thanks Jeff.

Have a great rest of your weekend.

Podcast is Trevor Connor Trevor raced in the pro peloton for nearly 20 years, getting on the podium at some of the largest races in North America.

He started his coaching career working with the National Development Program at Pacific Sport in Canada.

From there, he coached the Colorado State University cycling team to number two in the country and worked with several semi professional and amateur teams throughout Canada and the United States.

From 2011 to 2020, he wrote the monthly training articles for Velo News magazine.

This is also where he first became the co host of the popular training podcast Fast Talk.

Trevor's Master's thesis advisor was Dr.

Lauren Cordain, the originator of the popular Paleo Diet, and Trevor has been the CEO of the Paleo Diet since 2018.

He founded Fast Talk Laboratories in 2019, where he continues the Fast Talk podcast that focuses on producing information on Endurance sports training for top coaches, physiologists, and professional athletes from around the world.

And coincidentally, is where I got to meet him about a couple years ago.

Now, Trevor, welcome to the tridog Podcast.

It's a pleasure to finally get you on the show here.

Thanks for getting me on the show.

And I gotta say, when you said 20 years in the professional peloton, boy, did you make me feel old.

Yeah, I know, right?

It's a.

Think about that.

When you.

When you look back on a long career, it's.

It's with a certain degree of satisfaction, but then also with this knowledge that, oh, my goodness, it's.

It's a lot of water under the bridge, right?

Oh, it is.

Well, I still won the last pro races I ever did.

I.

I had this kid yell at me, and I.

I had gotten in the habit of when somebody yells at me, go.

Just saying, don't yell at me.

I've been racing since, you know, since before you did your first race and suddenly realized, oh, God, like, think of how many years I've been doing this.

And just said to the kid, don't yell at me.

I've been doing this since before you were born.

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah.

It really does catch up with you quickly.

So tell us about how you got your stuff.

Where are you from in Canada, and how did you come to cycling?

So I'm originally from Toronto, and, yeah, I don't have a particular.

There was this one incident that just made me realize I wanted to get into cycling.

I've always ridden my bike.

I always loved doing it, and it was just one of those things of slow progression where I tried my first race, and I loved it and got into racing and then said, hey, I want to take this a little bit further, and said, you know, I want to go to Canadian Nationals.

And the first time I went to Canadian Nationals, I had a great result.

And they had a little pamphlet there for the National Training Center.

So I just went, no, sure, let's apply.

They won't accept me.

And they did.

And then I had to make the decision of, oh, do I want to completely upend my life?

And said, you know, for a couple years, this would be fun.

So it was never fully planned out.

It just kind of progressed.

Had I planned it out, I actually would have done it a little differently.

And cycling was not a huge thing in Canada.

I mean, I grew up a fan of cycling only because of.

Gosh, I'm blanking on his name.

Steve.

Right, Steve.

Who.

Who raced in the France a few years.

Why can't I remember his last name?

Yeah.

And so whenever somebody asked me to remember a name, I instantly forget.

It starts with a B.

It'll come to me in a second.

Yeah, we'll look it up and we'll put it in at the end.

But, yeah, he was the first Canadian cyclist of any renown that I remember.

And that was what drew me into being interested in following cycling.

But it was not something that we really did growing up in Montreal.

We had.

Hockey was really the primary thing, and.

And yet you found yourself doing it and really drawn to the national kind of scene.

Was there much of a scene in Canada?

Yeah, actually was.

And so Steve Bauer just came to me.

Sorry, I blanked too.

But I was actually really lucky.

When I was at the national center, we were in kind of a golden age of Canadian cycling.

So I was there with Swain, Tough ryder Hesdal, Melanie McQuaid, who, as you know, is, you know, three time XTERRA World Champion and could keep going with the names.

I mean, I was basically the person at the back of the group, just not saying a word because everybody was three times stronger than me.

But we had a really strong contingent of Canadian cyclists who were going over to Europe and performing well.

So I was very lucky to be part of that group and to have them all at the center in British Columbia at that time.

So tell us about your work with FastDalk.

Let's transition to what you've been doing more recently.

And how did Fast Talk Labs come about and what has been kind, because I've been really impressed since I've come to know about FastDoc and been involved a little bit and really watch its growth.

How did you come to begin that company and.

And what has been the kind of the trajectory of it?

Yeah, so as you said, it started at Veloneus.

I was writing the coaching article for the magazine every month, which I was loving.

It was a great opportunity.

And for what they were paying me, I was putting in five times more work than I should have because it was just this great opportunity.

So I'd spend 15 hours researching every article and rewrite it like 10 times before I'd submit it.

But I'd been doing that for a few years, and the one thing that had really bothered me was articles had to be a thousand words.

And I never really felt like I could cover the topic.

And I was working with a cycling club up in Toronto and running their.

Their morning trainer sessions.

And during the trainer sessions, I would just sit there and talk physiology and training.

And one of the athletes came up to me and said, you should do a podcast.

And I wasn't really into them, so I looked them up and just said, hey, this is kind of a, a neat idea and it would be a way to dive much deeper into these subjects than I thought.

So I went back to Vella News, said, hey, you know, what do you think about doing a podcast?

And they said, oh, those are going nowhere.

Why would you ever want to do one of those?

So I said, would you let me do one through you?

I'll do all the work, I'll pay for it, everything.

Just let me put it out through Veloneus and give me a co host.

And they were amenable to that.

So that's kind of how fast talk started.

And for years it was just through VEL News and we were getting a good listenership.

So they kind of went, oh, there is something to these podcasts.

But eventually it was going well enough that Chris Case, who is my co host and I talked about and said, you know, we think there's a business opportunity here.

So we, we went out on our own and, and just explored this whole idea of just getting good science about endurance sports training out to as broad an audience as we could.

And now almost like a full fledged platform with coaching and lots of discussion and great articles for athletes.

And it's just kind of evolved in a very natural kind of way.

And, and I gather Chris has really come back and almost taken it over as you've moved more into the paleo diet thing.

Well, I work with both.

I'm the one person who works across both companies, which means I'm the one who's always tearing his hair out where everybody else works with one company or another and has a little more time to focus on it.

Chris, his ability to put out good content and to get it done quickly is extraordinary.

There was a time at Velo News where they a bit of a mass exodus.

And so for six months, Chris was putting out a magazine every month with just him, one writer and a photographer.

So, you know, I knew when I set this company up, I'm like, I want to do this with Chris.

I've never seen somebody capable of doing what he's doing and he has been nothing but great.

And you know, he, he cares about the quality of the content and he gets a lot of good content out there.

So, you know, I really trust him to just say, chris, go find good writers.

Let's get good stuff up there.

And I Know, it's going to be great.

Yeah.

It's so important to have someone like that that you can trust and really let go with a project like this.

You've been around the sport for a long time.

I love asking people who have been in endurance, especially in a niche sport like cycling, as long as you have the question about what kind of changes have you seen and.

And what are the things that kind of resonate with you as being most impactful as having changed cycling in the last 20 years?

Oh, boy.

No, there's a good question.

Are you talking about the highest levels or just in general?

Well, I mean, you could think about it in both ways, both for those who are operating at the high level, but also for the average cyclist.

Yeah, I would say it's not going to be anything unexpected, but I would say there's two sides to the coin.

It's the amount of detail, the amount of information we can collect, the amount of analysis that you can do.

When I was getting into it, they were talking about, oh, wow, the amount of data we have now is incredible.

And all we had was heart rate and you had some training software, but it wasn't very good.

And I'm sure you remember the days when you were sitting there with that little IR sensor, trying to pull the data off of your heart rate sensor.

And I love going back and looking at my data then and going, I can't even see what's going on in this ride.

There's so little information there.

So there was a lot of training by feel.

Now, the amount of analysis you can do of your rides, the amount that you can see during your workouts is just at whole nother level.

And the one hand, you know, I love it.

I'm a data geek.

It's great to look at.

There's a lot of ways you can use it for, for really good training.

On the other hand, I'm sure you've talked about this a hundred times.

There is that potential to really get caught in the weeds and lose the big picture.

And so it's finding that balance, I would say, is the big challenge right now.

It is such an issue, especially with athletes who are fairly new to the sport, who love to get sucked in by all the technology and will immediately get consumed with all of the different, not just the toys that they can have, but also what the toys are giving them.

And I know as someone who's been doing my own podcast now for the last six years, we're constantly reviewing different devices and we're always keeping our mind on this idea.

Okay, just because you can measure something, does that mean you need, need to and how is that going to really be helpful?

So when you think about the different kinds of streams of data that have become available, can you think of one or two that really have stuck out as being kind of really important and maybe one or two that you sort of maybe think, you know what, I don't need this.

Well, I think there's a ton that are coming out where I go, I don't need this, particularly because I think, think more and more.

You know, the, the life changing metrics are coming out every six months that I don't think are fully tested.

They haven't done the scientific research on it and so I'm always skeptical of it.

So you know, with me I still really look at the, the four primary numbers, which is speed, cadence, power, heart rate.

And I think the, you, you know, the software is letting you do more and more with those four numbers.

But I haven't really seen anything that I look at and go, yeah, this is a fifth that I'm going to look at constantly.

I mean, every once in a while look at heart rate variability, things like that, but it's using them in conjunction that I find really valuable.

And you'll get a laugh out of this.

Going back to the old days, I used to have a power sensor and had a heart rate monitor and neither one could measure both.

So I used to have to every ride open up an Excel sheet, export my data pulled into the Excel sheet and line them up so I could see what was going on with my heart rate relative to power.

And I think that's a really important thing to look at because power is an external metric.

It shows you basically how hard you're moving the bike, but tells you nothing about what's going on inside your body where heart rate is an internal metric.

But saying I was riding at 160 beats per minute doesn't tell you were you going faster than everybody?

Were you going slower than everybody?

It's just an internal measure and I think it's really important to have that external metric and that internal metric side by side so you can get the whole picture of what's going on with the athlete.

And I've been finding more and more ability to analyze those two together.

But I think it's critical.

Well, take a step back.

About 10, 15 years ago there was a kind of a movement saying heart rate's outdated, stop looking at that.

It's just power.

That's all we need.

I think that was a mistake.

And I'm glad to see us moving back to.

You really need both, and you need to see them together.

Yeah, Yeah, I agree.

I think that the inter.

Interplay between the external and internal.

I like the way you.

You put that.

Is really important.

I think that a lot of coaches and athletes will use RPE and power, which is, I think, a fair.

Almost a fair substitution, but heart rate as sort of that check on rpe, because sometimes you feel great, but your heart rate's telling you something a little bit different.

And sometimes you don't feel so good, your heart rate's telling you also something a little different.

So I think having those things interplay together is really nice.

I agree with you.

When you look at the.

Sorry, go ahead.

So I was going to say you brought up rpe.

So we just.

Literally, a couple days ago, we're talking with Dr.

Steven Seiler, and he's getting excited about respiratory frequency and read some research, getting ready for that conversation with him.

And the central governor in our brain that regulates our perception of effort is the same one that regulates breathing frequency.

So they're showing multiple research studies that breathing frequency and RPE line up perfectly.

Yeah, I'm not surprised.

Yeah, I'm not surprised.

Right.

Because when you think about RPE and how RPE is often taught to athletes, they often say things like, are you able to hold a conversation?

Are you able to speak in more than one or two words at a time?

Because that gut refers back to respiratory rate.

So that's really interesting to see that somebody actually has studied that and put that to paper.

So they're working right now on devices to measure respiratory rate.

So going back to that, I haven't really seen a new metric that I'm excited about.

That's one I really want to try out.

Because reading the research, I think there is some potential there.

Yeah, that's fascinating.

When you look at the bike itself, there's been so much technological advancement in bicycles.

Now, granted, I think that it's the athlete that drives the true advances in terms of how fast you go and how much success you have.

But let's face it, we all love our bikes.

When we think about the technological advances in bicycles, and there's been many.

I mean, electronic shifting, disc brakes, carbon wheels, on and on it goes.

What are a couple of things that you sort of look at from the time that you were racing as a pro to now that really sort of stand out as things that you think are most impressive?

Oh, boy.

Are you asking the wrong Person.

My newest bike is from 2014.

I've never done electronic.

I do have one bike that has disc brakes, but I am the biggest retro grouch you will ever meet.

Part of the.

Part of my explanation for that is, you know, I still go to races.

I still go to races where they have support, they have a vehicle following that can get you a new wheel, things like that.

And so I don't want to be on disc brakes because they will always have a rim brake wheel in those cars.

And I have to keep it simple.

When I go to a race, I do all my own mechanic work.

I don't want a bike that I'm going to be up for six hours trying to do repair work on.

So I look at it from a very different perspective, and I talk with mechanics who are at the Tour de France and like, you have no idea how difficult our life has gotten.

You know, we used to be able to.

To get a bike in shape for the next day.

Used to take less than an hour.

Now it's hours per bike, and we stay up all night.

And you can see they can't even do a quick wheel swap.

So on the.

The cars at the Tour de France, they have to have a whole bunch of spare bikes on the back of the car because they're just going to give you a new bike.

So, you know, my answer to that question is I think there's some really neat advances.

You know, the electronic shifting is great.

The disc brakes are much quicker.

I personally think all the integrated housing and integrated top stems and all that sort of stuff look nice, but I think they're more aesthetic than any sort of performance gain.

But I'm always just concerned because most people can't now fix their own bike.

If you're out on the road and you have any sort of issue, you're in trouble.

Yeah.

So.

And if you travel with your bike, learning how to do all of it, to be able to pack your bike and then put it back together again is a real.

It's a chore.

It's very daunting for a lot of people.

So I don't disagree with you on that.

There's nothing wrong with being retro.

Would you call it a retro grouch?

I love that.

I think that's pretty cool.

I am a giant retro grouch.

But, yeah, I had a friend who bought an $8,000 bike, and then he was traveling to a race, and he wanted to pack it up into his bike bag, and because of the integrated stem, he couldn't fold it up.

He had to take it to his bike shop and they had to use special tools that you could get the handlebars off.

And then the question is, when I get there, what do I do?

Yeah, I want to shift gears a little bit and ask your opinion.

There is always a discussion going on.

I think it reflects the angst among triathletes about the health and vitality of multi sport.

There's always this question about, oh my gosh, is triathlon on the decline, things like that?

I don't know that cycling has really faced that.

I think cycling is in a really good kind of place right now with the emergence of Tatte Picacha and of course Remco Venable and all of the others who are out at the front of these big races.

There are, however, some concerns about the fact that cycling is becoming harder to watch.

And as cycling becomes more and more behind paywalls, it stands to lose viewership.

And as it loses viewership, then you lose what a lot of sports do when they go behind those paywalls, which is lose younger viewers.

And if you lose younger viewers, then younger viewers will take their sports attention elsewhere and not necessarily get into cycling.

Do you have any concerns that that's a valid thing to be worried about?

I mean, is cycling potentially cutting its nose off despite its face because it's so in the pursuit of profit?

You know, that's a really good question and I hadn't thought about it from that perspective.

I also, you know, I'm being very regional here.

I think it is doing very well over in Europe.

North American cycling has been on a big decline and is at the lowest I've seen it my entire time.

It is a struggle.

And you saw about, say 10, 15 years ago now race organizers getting out of races because they were having a hard time getting sponsorship.

And it's because sponsors would say, why do I want to sponsor this race?

We're not getting TV ev time.

We're not getting exposure to, except to anybody who's just there at the race.

And as soon as the sponsors pulled out and race organizers said, we can't put races together anymore, that's when you start to see the decline of North American cycling.

So, yeah, I would be concerned that you would end up having the same issue over in Europe.

They might initially make a lot of money off of putting it all behind paywalls, but they got to be real careful of sponsors saying, you know what, we're not getting the exposure we want anymore.

We're going to look to other Sports where we can still get exposure if it goes that route.

Yeah, that's what happened here.

And they're going to be in big trouble if that happens.

Yeah.

The other, the other thing that always worries me about cycling's popularity in North America is just the threat against cyclists, the continued animosity towards cyclists who just want to be outside riding on the roads, that I think drivers.

What's always lost in the conversation is that cyclists are drivers, too, 99.9% of the time, and pay for those roads and want to just make use of those roads in a means to either commute or get fit or train for something.

And yet there is just this overt hostility and literally, as we've seen in the last couple of years, drivers who will, on purpose, purposefully hit cyclists out of some.

I have no idea what's motivating it, but that also concerns me a great deal.

And I don't see any movement in that dialogue, despite groups like.

It could be me and various other organizations who are trying to shift that dialogue.

But I don't see it changing.

And I wonder if you or your colleagues at Fast Talk have thought about it or talked about it and have any ideas of how to make this be more of a friendly environment for cyclists.

I heard a real sobering thought from somebody who knows a lot about this, who said basically 2 to 3% of drivers, if they could hit you, kill you and get away with it, they would do it.

Yeah, that is definitely sobering.

It is a sobering thought.

But it's an important thing to realize when we are out on the road.

One thing we're never going to change is there are going to be drivers that just don't want us on the road, and it doesn't matter what we do.

They hate having us there.

They're going to honk at us.

I'm sure you've been smoked, which is when a diesel truck passes you, they shift down a gear and push out all this smoke that goes right in your face, and it's awful.

And they do that just because they don't like the cyclists out there.

That's.

I, I don't think that's ever going to change.

The most promising thing I, I've.

I've heard of recently.

I'm sorry, I.

I think it's spoke.

Safety is the name of the company.

You know Dr.

Andy Pruitt.

Yeah.

He is working with this company that is now working with many of the car manufacturers and many of the bike computer manufacturers like Garmin, where they are creating an interface where cars and bike computers can communicate.

So, quite literally, if you have a Garmin on your computer, on your handlebar, and a car is coming up on you and the car doesn't see you, the Garmin and the car will communicate and the car will take control and swerve the car away from the cyclist.

And car manufacturers are excited about this.

They're getting on board.

So I would actually say I'm not sure we're ever going to get a lot of car drivers to stop hating us, but I think something like this and seeing this become something that's required is going to save a lot of lives.

And, you know, Andy keeps giving me updates and it's really exciting what they're doing.

Yeah, that is exciting.

And that would be potentially really interesting technology.

I mean, we have the radar which warns the cyclist but does nothing to tell the car.

And to have something that goes both ways would be fantastic.

So we've seen there is pedestrian avoidance available on some of the newer cars, so cyclist avoidance would be nice, too.

Following up on that and a completely different technological question, you and I think it was you and I.

I know Griffin for sure, and I have chatted about this.

And that is the impact that artificial intelligence, or AI, is having on endurance athletes and coaches specifically.

I know in triathlon, AI is having a pretty big impact in displacing coaches.

There's one big company that sounds a lot like what I call myself, and they have unfortunately kind of sucked up, hoovered up a lot of the athletes and are really causing a lot of problems for independent coaches.

Do you see this as a positive thing, not necessarily running coaches out of business, but the emergence of AI in coaching as a positive thing?

Or is this something that we should all be thinking, maybe pump the brakes a little bit?

Well, I've got to first say I have a bias.

I think coaches are great.

I think it's great working with a coach, so I'm always going to support the coach.

So just know my bias is a little towards the coaches here.

Yeah.

And it's quite possible at some point that the AI is going to do just as good, if not better, a job than the coaches.

And I'll still be yelling and screaming, hire a coach.

You know, I have that bias.

But I think my answer to that question right now.

I read this really interesting study where they had computer software create a training plan for an athlete, and then they had somebody from the British Cycling Federation, one of their top coaches, also create a plan for an athlete, and then they compared which plan was better and basically said the AI plan was better.

And I've heard proponents of AI cite the study again and again and again.

So I went and read it and what they did was they just took the two plans, put them into some training software and determined, figured out which one had a better mix of ctl, TSB and atl, which is a hypothetical.

But my point is that's great.

But I guarantee you within three days the athlete's going to be off plan.

And how good is the AI software going to be at talking to the athlete, encouraging them to go out and do their training and everything else?

I don't think.

I think the plan is a very small part of coaching.

I think the most important part of coaching is the interaction and dynamic between the coach and the athlete.

And I don't think AI is there yet.

Yeah, yeah, that's something I have said as well.

The intangibles that an individual, the human intelligence brings to coaching.

Right.

In the time that we have left.

Trevor, tell us a little bit about the Paleo diet and how you came to be the CEO of that company and what it is exactly that you're doing there.

So I'll try to give you the short version here.

So I ended up towards the end of my cycling career going to Colorado State University because I really wanted to study exercise science and nutrition.

And I came from a traditional sports nutrition background and it was a requirement when I was there that I took Dr.

Cordain's course.

And I will tell you, having studied traditional sports nutrition, the course just infuriated me.

I thought he was dead wrong and I couldn't believe the things he was saying.

I was actually so frustrated, I spent the summer after the course trying to prove him wrong.

And as I read the research, in my efforts to prove him wrong, I just kind of went, wow, this actually kind of makes sense.

I really couldn't find major holes and without really even knowing it, I just slowly moved to the Paleo diet.

And I was 38, 39 at the time.

I had given up on cycling, cycling at the highest levels just because I was struggling.

I was getting sick all the time.

I was having issues.

And that winter I had one of my best winters ever.

Didn't get sick.

Even though I was a full time student with a coaching business, I could train really hard.

Went to Canadian nationals on my 39th, 9th birthday and missed third place by a wheel length.

I was broken away almost the entire refer good hour of the race in third place and they caught me on the line.

But still, you know, at 39, I was pretty happy with that.

And the next year, at the age of 40, I went back and raced a a full season in the pro peloton and at one point had myself top 10.

And that was all the diet and just completely convinced me there was something to this.

So reached out to Dr.

Cordain, said, you know, I'd love to be your graduate student.

So I became his final advisee and just kept working with him after I graduated.

And in 2019, he decided to retire and he handed me the business.

Wow, that's fantastic.

And now the business is producing cookbooks, I understand, as well as different foods too, is that correct?

We're doing a whole mix of things.

I'll admit to you that the biggest struggle here is figuring out a business model for it, because we're really just trying to help people eat healthier.

And one of the things we're actually fighting is there are a lot of people that got into the Paleo movement going, oh, make a ton of money, because this is really popular.

And the discovery Paleo diets basically just go to your local farmer's market and just buy fresh food.

There is nothing to sell, which we see as well.

And so we're really just trying to get people back towards more natural foods, eating whole foods that are nutrient dense.

And as I said, there really isn't a product to sell.

So it's mostly just advocacy for healthy eating.

Well, you won't get an argument over here.

I think that's great and that's important work you're doing.

Well, Trevor, I can't thank you enough for joining me for a really interesting conversation.

I think it was pretty wide ranging.

We covered a lot of topics in the short time that you had here with me, and I really appreciate you taking the time.

I look forward to my appearance on Fast Talk Labs, which will be coming up about six weeks from now.

So I am looking forward forward to that.

And until we speak again, thank you so much again for joining me on the TRADAR podcast today.

Well, it was a real pleasure and, yeah, excited to get you on the show.

It's going to be a lot of fun.

What's up, everybody?

My name is Joe Wilson and I'm a proud supporter of the TR Podcast.

The Tridar Podcast is produced and edited by Jeff Sanov, one of my good friends, along with his amazing interns, Cosette Rhodes and Nina Takashima.

You can find the show notes for everything discussed on the show today, as well as the archives of previous episode@www.tridog podcast.com do you have any questions about any of the issues discussed on this episode or do you have a question for consideration to be answered on a future episode?

Send Jeff an email@trydoc trial.com if you are interested in coaching services, you should really reach out to jeff@tridocoaching.com or lifesportcoaching.com where you can find a lot of information about Jeff and the services that he provides.

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Search for it and request to join today.

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The Tridark Podcast Be back soon with another medical question and answer in another interview with someone in the world of multisport.

Until then, train hard, train healthy.