So in this episode, we're delighted to welcome on Emma Starlin from Evolved Energetics Academy, who is a trainer and master practitioner in emotional freedom technique, or also some of you may have heard of it as EFT tapping. So welcome Emma.

Hi, thank you so much for having me

Yes, welcome and pleased to meet you.

and you and you.

Emma, the reason we got in touch with you and asked you if you'd like to come on and be a guest is because I was listening to a video a short while ago, I'm part of one of your groups, and I was listening to you talking about resistance. as I was listening, I just was immediately taken the fact that very often when we're at events, there's nearly always somebody who will come up to me and say, That's me. I'm a nervous driver, or I'm an anxious driver. Um, I don't like driving here, or I won't drive on the motorway, or I don't like driving somewhere I don't know. And whenever I sort of said, well, you know, you can, there is help out there, there is help available, we can, we can help you. Very often the response is, oh, no, that's okay. I'm quite happy where I am. Or it's not the right time at the moment. And this has happened even to some of our podcast guests, actually. And on the one hand, they say they would dearly love to be able to overcome these feelings about driving. And then on the other hand, They're very resistant. The resistance is immediate. And so I thought of that when I was listening to you and I'm like, right, we need Emma on this is so relevant.

Bless you. Thank you for that. Yeah. And speaking from personal experience anyway, I used when I got my first car, I was a very nervous driver. So I, um, Totally get how it feels to be paralyzed at the wheel. And I mean, it got to the point with me where I almost fainted in the outside lane of, of a, of a dual carriageway doing, you know, 75 miles an hour with a lorry just on the inside of me. So I get that crippling fear and that was before I started doing EFT. But the beauty of, of working with the resistance underneath it is actually, it isn't your fault. It's a survival mechanism, right? And it's inbuilt in us. And you don't know if you've heard of this phrase, but the hardest thing about fear is the fear itself. We get fear of fear, you know? And the thing about change is that sometimes for a lot of people, It's easier and more comfortable, even though it's awful, staying where they are than facing that fear and having to do what it takes to get over it. Because let's face it, if you're petrified of driving for whatever reason, whether you've had an accident, whether it just scares the bejesus out of you, don't do it. To actually get past that, you would have to face that fear. Realistically, we, none of us run towards fear with our arms wide open going, yay. You do it. So it's just inbuilt in us. We run the other way. So it's first of all, a survival mechanism, and that is really hard to fight. And especially when you have got maybe years, even with me, it was quite a lot of years before between passing my test and actually getting my car was probably about 15 years. That's a long time to not be driving and not be getting skilled in it and not be feeling confident, right? And so you're kind of starting all over again. But for whatever reason it is. Over time, fear builds upon fear, builds upon fear and the neural pathways grow along with that. So, you know, it's just fascinating that you can use EFT to work on this and I can, I am a walking advert for this because that's exactly what I used to do when I got my first mini Cooper. I didn't know it was tapping at the time, but I used to do it in the car. And within a couple of months I was driving up the motorway like nothing had ever happened. So it is really easy to do. But it's almost like getting over that threshold of, Oh, I'm going to have to face my fear and then doing it. And the key is to regulate your nervous system so that you can get over that threshold. Because it's that threshold that's stopping you. And it's because the fear of the fear, right? So something about driving and being confident driving, something about it doesn't feel safe. And it might be because there's been something in the past that's happened to you. You might have witnessed something happen to somebody else. It might be something in the present. Um, like, I don't know, if you have dizzy spells. Like I said, you know, I felt I nearly fainted at the wheel. If you have dizzy spells, then you don't feel safe to be driving. Maybe I get that. And it's very responsible, but also there's an anticipatory image of future issues that sometimes we get. So if you're thinking, Oh God, but what if I set off to Leeds, let's say, and I'm bombing up the M62 and something happens. What if some car pulls out? And what if, what if, what if, what Whenever we do things like that, we get in these images in our brain and it paints a picture of a problem. And immediately our nervous system goes, see, told you it wasn't safe. And that just strengthens that neural pathway that there's something wrong. I can't do it. It's not safe, you know, and on and on and on we go. So yeah, it's all about survival.

Wow. I said so much. You mentioned there, there was so much, you mentioned So would you say, I mean you mentioned the hardest bit there was just taking that step over that threshold and then you know, almost facing the fear. So, is it the first phase is just admitting it to yourself that there's a problem or is it something else?

So I think people can admit it, but I also think that when you admit it, and this is in my experience and in that of my clients with different things going on for them, not just this, but especially when it comes down to things like anxiety. If you look at the way society is today, you know, we're supposed to be perfect, really, aren't we? We're supposed to do the house, the car, the dog, the kids, the job, the whatever, the blah, blah, blah. And whenever we don't do something perfect to somebody else's societal expectations, it's deemed not good enough. So when we get anxious and it stops us doing something, There's this whole what we call an outer casing of judgment, right? So, somebody might say, I'm a really anxious driver, in brackets, and that makes me feel ridiculous. Or, I'm a really anxious driver and I feel so stupid because I can't get past it. You must have heard that in some of your talks, right?

absolutely.

It's that judgment, in part, that needs dissolving first, because if you're sat there going, I'm pathetic, I'm such a loser that I can't, what, what's wrong with me? Then it's going to keep you there, isn't it? But if you, if you work with that as well, you're right, that kind of first threshold, it doesn't mean the nerves automatically just go away completely, but it's, it's almost close like. If you were going to go and do public speaking, the worst part of it is that 30 seconds before you actually get in the spotlight on the stage. Once you're there and then the adrenaline calms down and you're in the flow, it's, it's easier. Once you get going and you get over that threshold, it's like a feedback loop. The brain, the eyes see that you are driving and you're okay and you're safe and you're managing it and it's a feedback loop and the brain goes, Oh, I can do this. But that threshold point. It's so difficult and that's where people, a lot of people stop if they could find a way to ease the nerves and the anxiety at that point and the fear and get over that threshold, then it starts to get easier and you get that feedback and that evidence that you can do it. And it's like, Oh, I'm not a loser. Oh, I can do this. This is cool. But yeah, that threshold is just so key to get past. You know,

And I suppose that will be different for everybody, won't it? That, that threshold will be different places for everybody as well.

a hundred percent. Cause it might be like, I can pootle around town to my heart's content. But if you asked me at the moment to go and drive on a motorway, there would be a little bit of in me because I don't do it very often anymore. And because I have a memory of nearly fainting in the outside lane of a dual carriageway, overtaking a big lorry, which was not conducive. And I had to kind of. Do certain things to stay awake, to not faint, to pull in, to then go and stop and have a really sweet hot cup of tea so I could get home, you know, and it's, it's things like that. But the brain is basically scanning all the time in the present or the anticipated future for, am I safe? Am I safe? Am I safe? And if you're thinking about something that you may do in the future, that in any way feels unsafe or like it's too big. I can't do it. I don't have what it takes. And I'm actually not willing to put myself out there and try because it's too scary because it in any way reminds you of something that's been or something you fear might happen. Forget it. You won't do it. But that just builds a neural path, what we call a neural pathway to the same thoughts over and over again. So the key is catching yourself really. When you start to have those thoughts of I can't do it. And I'm a loser or whatever comes after that. And when you use tapping, what you do is you lessen the emotional charge. Cause if, I don't know if you guys have been through this or you've got something else that you think about and it makes you fearful or anxious or a bit like, you know, there's that bit of a clench, right? You know how it goes. That clench in the body is the emotional charge when we think about doing the thing that we're scared of. What tapping does is it soothes that emotional charge so you can get over that threshold and go and do the thing. You know? Yeah,

and it is. I mean, tapping is something that I've been doing for years and it just helps you unstick. I think where it's particularly good is when you just have that sort of block, that emotional block that you just don't seem to be able to, well you can't logic it away because it's emotional. I don't know. You can try and logic and problem solve it as much as you want, but actually, for emotional blocks, the tapping just releases something really nicely. Now, I know when when I heard you talk before, you talked about different types of resistance. Could you mention a couple of different types of resistance that maybe might be some of our listeners might go, Oh, yeah. That's me. It all comes down to bass survival, but there are a couple of other variations on a theme, aren't there?

the biggest one is safety. Is it safe for me to do this thing? And that is real nervous system, survival mechanism. Am I going to die if I do it? Essentially, you know, and if there's any fear there, the fear is telling you, you might do. because it's so out there. And so that will stop people in their tracks. And with that, it's just, it's a case of calming the fear, calming the fear, calming the fear, and then trying a little bit, getting the feedback and going, Oh, I can do it. And then just keep working on that. Some of the other types of, I, we had a big list in that program that you mentioned that was 12 resistance keys, but when you boil all of those down, because some of them overlap, what you tend to come down to is the big four, which is able, am I able to do it? Do they believe that they can actually do it, that they've got the skills or the ability to do it in the first place, to do it safely? Willing. Am I willing to do what it takes? Am I willing to face this fear head on, run towards it with my arms open going, yay! Because nobody really does, are they? Worthy. This is a huge one. Worthiness, right? Am I worthy of having what I want of doing this? Now that might sound like a really silly thing to attach to this, but actually being able to drive and take yourself off wherever you want to go, that's massive personal independence and your sense of freedom, isn't it? And so if at all you've been told in your life, you know, that you're rubbish or you're not good enough or you're not worthy of having what you want, the brain can attach that to different things. And so we can make that attachment of I'm not worthy of feeling free and having my independence. And that can keep us. stuck as well. If we've got low self esteem, not worthy is probably quite a big one. And then safe is, is the biggest one. Safe underlies everything. And then you've got that in two parts. Is it safe for me? And then is it, is it safe for others if I do this? So for example, if I was still having fainting fits in the car and I had children, which I don't, I might be saying to myself, I'm not going to do it because what if something happens to me and my children are left without a And, and that is, it's a very real possibility. There's no judgment around any of this at all, but that fear keeps you in the grip, right? So able, willing, worthy, and safe are the four sort of big ones that all the rest come under, you know? So willing, you've got motivation and things like that, but you know,

Yeah, and I'm sure that people listening will be nodding along, listening and nodding along. Because, I mean, the safety for yourself and for others, I think the safety for others plays for a lot of people. There are people who will say, I'll do that on my own, but I won't do that with a loved one, loved people, loved pets, whoever, you know, whatever it is. So, people often will value somebody else's safety more than their own. And the worthy one, This is something so lots of driving schools when they're doing their advertising this is what they're marketing they're marketing the freedom to have your driving license to change your job drive wherever you want you know take your family places they're they're sort of This, you know, this is part of the marketing is, you know, your license equals your freedom. This is the dream having a driving license enables you to have this dream. So if you don't feel worthy, then maybe you don't feel that you deserve. That, that you're not worthy of being able to apply for a new job, being able to take your family places, being able to visit places. Mmm.

You make a really good point there actually, because if I may just chuck this in the pot, it might not even just be about the driving. The driving might be something that. People are unconsciously using as a buffer. So if, let me flip it on its head and say. If I had to do this, if I got over my fear of driving, what would I then not be able to avoid doing? What would have to change? Right? So I might have to take hubby to work. I might have to take my kids to school. I might have to run around after mom. I might have to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And actually, if you don't drive and this isn't a judgment and it's not conscious, it's a secondary gain thing. It's part of the hidden benefit of staying where we are.

Yeah. Mmm. This is

know, it's a sticky one, right, it's horrible and it feels horrible saying it but, but it's a very real human conscious thing, consciousness thing, you know, we don't mean to do it.

We look at it from a driving test, you know, and people will fail their driving test and it, yes, they do something wrong, but when you look at some of the real reasons why people fail a driving test. is passing a driving test now means they've got to do something and they go I don't want it I

Yeah.

Yeah we did we did a whole podcast about the fear of success because What does it mean? And we teach this on our workshops with driving instructors. We get it up there as a, as a reason. Watch out for this reason because it's often hidden. It's one that is hard to uncover, isn't it? But when you hear somebody say, Oh, well, I can do this, but I really don't fancy doing that three hour drive to go and visit. You know, my mum said she can't wait for me to drive up and visit and, you know, we're always then having to say, well, just because you passed your driving test doesn't mean that you're going to have to do that immediately. You may set up a whole six month plan to work towards that, you know, it doesn't, it's, it is a really sticky one. I think it's great and you've opened my eyes a little bit to probably dealing with, Client students, whoever I'm working with, those four points is, is quite a simple way to just just ask people, isn't it? You know, are you able to do this? Are you, willing worthy as it's safe? Is there a, one that I should use first, or should I, or does it really matter is, or do I have to answer all four of them to say, right, okay, I can do this now, or

That's a great question. Shall I give you a little tool so that you can work out which one is at the root of the problem? Would that help?

I'll go on now.

Yeah, it's super simple and you actually already have the tool because it's your body. Um, way that we get people to test is if you think about the difference between thinking something in your head, you can kind of hide behind that, right? When you say something out loud, your brain hears it differently and all of a sudden it becomes very real, right? So what you get them to, what you could get them to do, and I work with my. clients and students with this is I'll have them just like make contact with their body. You don't have to do this bit, but this is just helpful and have them say out loud. I'm able to, I'm able to go and drive, or I'm able to pass my tests. And then when they say it out loud, ask them how true it feels. Because they will have a reaction to that. They'll have a visceral, a somatic, a bodily reaction to it. Because if they don't believe that, it'll be like, Oh, no, that don't feel true at all. If ten is completely true, how true did that feel? Like a two. I'm not able to do it. I just can't do it. I haven't got it in me. Or whatever. And you could say, what are you telling yourself about that? What stories are coming out? And see what the self talk is. And the same, I'm willing to do what it takes to pass my test. No, I'm not. That's only a 3 out of 10, right? You could say, I'm worthy of passing my driving test. That's a 10. Or, yeah, that's a 10. Then you know if it's a 10, it's not really a big deal, because they're almost there. It's safe for me to pass my driving test. I'll put money on safety being the biggest one. Safety or ability, usually. But, everybody's different. But when they say it out loud, ask them, How true does that feel? Not, how true do you think it is? How true does it feel in the body? Tune in, see what sensations they're getting. And if they're not sure, you can kind of say, well, when you said that, did you notice any kind of clenching off in your body, you know, any sort of pushback, any resistance? Yeah, I did a bit got a fluttering of the stomach, that kind of thing. It's all a sign that your body's going, no, it's not safe. It's not safe. Don't do it. And the lowest scorers are the areas that you want to look at. Because they've got the most, so

I love that. I love something that seems so simple to use. And that's the beauty of that, isn't it? It's like four areas that you can look at or four questions. And then just, you know, just ask simple questions and you can tell from people's faces. I know as soon as you ask those questions and they, you

and you, and you can also tell if they're saying no, no, no, it's a 10 out of 10 and they're going, you can tell if they're telling the truth, right? But there's always some kind of hidden thing. And I just think if people can understand their motivations and the reasons why they aren't doing it, they can then stop judging themselves. And what I hope people take from this is the relief that you get when you realize this is not you, it's not your fault. You're not doing it on purpose. There is a very good survival reason why for whatever reason it is, there's a very good reason why your brain Does not want you to go and do that thing. And it doesn't matter what it is. And there's ways to deal with how you feel about that and the things you make it mean about yourself. But once you dial that down, you're actually then just dealing with the facts. And don't forget what happens in a stress response is that. If that's your prefrontal cortex, right, that wraps around the rest of the brain, when you're in a stress response, you may, you probably already know this, but the prefrontal cortex disengages because it's not needed to run away or to turn around and fight or to hide from the bear or whatever. And so when that's disengaged and effectively it's gone off to the bar for a virgin pina colada, cause we're talking about driving, so there's no alcohol involved

Yeah.

and you can't think straight. You really struggle to think straight, make a decision, be resourceful, be creative, whatever it is, the, the faculties, the, the executive decision making that you need when you are driving. And this is probably what people don't realize is behind it is that executive function isn't there. If you're driving and you're stressed out of your tree, that's going to be disengaged. And so your reactions will be slower. And so you, it will be feel harder because you just do like all of a dither. But when, if you tapped before you drove, once you got over the initial fear, that reengages, you're in full command of your faculties, you can make quick decisions, quick movements, reflex actions. And so you're completely, you're a lot safer. Do you see what I mean? And so people maybe don't realize that that is the process of disengaging of the brain. And again, they're berating themselves for it. Oh, why can't I just sort it out is what I always hear. Why can't I just sort this out? Because you're having a biochemical response. It's not your fault. This is how the body, whoever designed this needs a serious talking to, because it really doesn't go with the modern age, does it? In a way, there's that many stressors that come out as all the time. And then you've got your phone probably beeping in your bag or whatever else. I switched mine off when I'm driving. Cause I can't stand it. But you get me, there's all these things coming at you. You've got a very low window of tolerance for any more stress before you hit that roof. Whereas if you tap and it brings down the stress in your body, you re engage the brain. Then you go driving. You're a lot more bound to be successful and clear headed and able to make good decisions and have good reactions and have a successful outcome.

And it sounds so when you, when you, a bit like when you talk out loud, it just makes more sense,

Yes. What is it about that, that jumbles things up in there in the head? I do not know, but yeah. That's

But that's, that's, that's it, isn't it? It is just like, it's a simple explanation like, oh yeah. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. And because we often use the phrase about your brain flying out of the window. So you're in the car and suddenly you've left the brain behind. The logic, logic has flown out of the window and it is that sort of feeling. and that leaves people, that then creates these experiences that play into that safety aspect next time they come to drive. So you're building up either these experiences of driving that was scary, or you're building up positive experiences of driving of, yeah, I can do that. That's okay. And that then helps you build your confidence. Suppose one of it's one of these topics that we could talk for ages on, couldn't we?

absolutely,

And your face said yes.

because I love it. Literally, I could talk about this hours come home and I, and having struggled with this personally, it's even more, it's even closer to my heart, you know, because it, it stopped me doing so many things. I, it really did. I was living half a life because I wouldn't go anywhere, you know?

Um,

And nobody deserves that. Everybody deserves to have the freedom, if they're physically able, to get in a car and go where they want to go, you know? I mean, my mum is on two sticks. She's had one hip replacement, the other one's on its way out. You know, she's in a wheelchair. And so, a lot of the time, and it's very difficult, and one of her biggest frustrations is, she can't just get in the car and go, because it's difficult. too hard, it's too painful, it's whatever. And when you lose that sense of personal freedom, everything else just feels really difficult, doesn't it? So I'm a big advocate for, empowerment and things like that. And I think this is one of the areas that it really shows up for people.

But it's, it's one of those simple things where you've got to ask probably those four questions first off, and it's not going to be, all right, I can do it, so I'll just go and do it then, but it is just taking those simple steps. It's not going to happen literally overnight. It's going to take simple steps and progress to where you want to get to.

Absolutely. And what you can do is if you do take a simple step and you get in the car and you drive around the block, for example, and you're feeling nervous, there's a couple of things that you can do before you set off. One of the quick cheat places is underneath your collarbones, right at the middle. You know how, if you get anxious, we typically, we could typically rub under our collarbones like that anyway, all the tapping points are under there. So our body knows what to do. We've just been taught to forget. So if you rub your collarbones or, you know, or just tap under there for a couple of minutes and just breathe out for longer than you breathe in, cause that switches on a relaxation response and then try tapping at what I also do is. If I'm going slow enough, and I don't advise this, it's just sort of like tap the side of my hand on the steering wheel just a couple of times and then drive a bit further and maybe just tap the other one a few times, because that is a really big resistance point in tapping on the karate chop of the hand. Obviously, I wouldn't do it going on a motorway, but if you just pootling around the corner, or you can pull up and do a little bit more and then go a little bit further, you know, the point is, is you're soothing as you're driving. you're telling the brain that it's safe at the same time, you know,

Yeah. And so for the people who are listening, that point that Emma was talking about is underneath the side of the hand underneath the little finger. So just so that you're not trying to get in the sides of your hands on your body. thumbs. So I can just imagine people driving now. Yeah. It's underneath the side of the hand. That's sort of like bony side bit, um, underneath the little finger. And of course, this is something that people can do gently when they're at traffic lights. There are points when before, pulling away and, safely at the side of the road, but traffic lights when the traffic lights on red. So there, there are a few moments where, you know, depending on your experience level that you can do that while driving. Yeah, lovely. And I was also thinking, picking up on the willing, the, am I willing to do this? One of the things we've noticed is the people who come to us for one to one help are the people who suddenly become willing. to do something about it. And the reason they've become willing is because they've been forced into it. So they weren't, they didn't come to Willing willingly. Something has happened. So they've either moved or they've had children or they've no longer got a partner to drive them around. So there's become a need. They've got a new job. so they suddenly needs to be able to drive. And that's Makes them more willing, so that gets them over that threshold a little bit. And then once they've made that decision, actually, they all do really well working towards it. So that just sort of popped in my head there that that is a really interesting one as well. Am I willing to do it? What's my motivation?

and it's really funny in what you say there, because I see it a lot with my clients as well. They'll do it if it involves somebody else or something outside of themselves. And that again, may come down to worthiness. Well, if it's just about me, then it doesn't matter. It's not important. And

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah,

worthy sneaks in there. It hides out in other camps. So what

in other places. Yeah. So it really comes down, one of the messages that we put across consistently is doing detective work. So, very rarely is, driving the root cause, somebody's actual, you know, skills of driving. It's normally other things. Um, so we often talk about do the detective work. So here now Emma's just given you four new questions that you can ask yourself, which are the beginning of doing the detective work. So talking it out loud, asking yourself those questions, seeing which ones, yeah, sort of like maybe popping a hand on your chest. of that area under your collarbone or around your heart area. Seeing how true the statement feels and then that gives you those clues, because you're being a detective, that gives you those clues to then go, ah, these are the things that don't feel true. This is something I need to Ask myself more questions. Explore a bit further what might be going on here and continue your detective work from there. So it's just coming at it from a different angle, isn't it? Love it.

same place is also a very good question because that can be sort of the secondary gains and the, the hidden things that we're not conscious of. You know, be compassionate with yourself when you ask that because we're not asking you to flagellate with a stick, you know, self flagellate, beat yourself up with a stick. It's just about being really honest about what, what's keeping you where you are, you know.

yeah, definitely. And it is non judgmental, you know, it really is being kind to yourself. Don't judge yourself about what comes up. There's reasons for all of these things. And like you say, most of it comes down to safety in one way, shape or form. So when we invited you onto the podcast, was there anything that you thought, Oh, I really want to talk about? This, you know, is there, was there a tip or something that you wanted to, to share?

I think for me, I, I've, I've already blurted out most of the stuff that I get really passionate about doing this, but I think if it's one thing, it would be this. It's not your fault. And I hope that you take some sort of relief from that. And that can help you when, catch yourself when you're having that conversation of, God, I'm such a loser, or why can't I sort this out? Or what's wrong with me? They're seem, they seem fine or however it manifests itself. Just remember that this is a survival mechanism. It's in the body for a reason. And just be curious and compassionate about. Why it's showing up, you know, because it's to protect you always, it's to protect you from something. So what is it trying to protect you from, you know? And if you can work with that, then you can be a lot more understanding and open and curious about moving forward. And the second you become open and curious, as opposed to, and, you know, rah, and kind of angry about it or frustrated. Can you see if you're frustrated? There's a reason that the sign for anger is a clenched fist because it's clenched. That's what happens with your energy in the body when you relax and let go and just come at it with open curiosity. You let it go. The tension dissipates naturally in and of itself. Take a couple of deep breaths and you can just look at it and be the detective with a much more compassionate hat on, you know, for what comes up, what the answer might be really.

wise words?

Long earned, hard earned over many, many, many years.

but this, this is probably it as well, because you're coming from your experience, isn't it? And Emma, I know you work with lots of different people for lots of different things. So, sort of like, we've come to you to talk with The Spin on Driving, but actually, this can work for all sorts of things, all sorts of goals that people want to work towards. If people want to find out more about what you do, your training and, to work with you, where do they find you?

I live on Facebook predominantly, so you can find me under the Facebook address and then forward slash Evolved Energetics. I'm also that on Instagram. Um, my personal profile is Emma Starling. I'm always happy to connect with people and I am over on LinkedIn under just my full name as well. and I actually do, if people want to sample how this is, I hope it's okay for me I do a daily tap and I've done it for Eight years or more now for free on initially on Facebook and now also on YouTube and LinkedIn. And I go live every day and I do a little bit of tapping every day just to show people what it feels like so that you can experience it in your body and go, okay, yeah, I do actually feel more relaxed because once you, believe me, once you just. Sample how the body reacts to tapping and how much more relaxed. It's like a, like a power down. I do it in the morning. So you can start your day from that regulated place. You never look back. And if that's one thing I can gift people, it would be that. So they can just get a little bit of relaxation in their day and in their nervous system and make the next decision from there.

Lovely. And I was going to mention it if you didn't, so I'm really pleased that you didn't mention it. And so before we wrap up, You mentioned a little bit before about you learning to drive or, your feelings about driving originally. How do you cast your mind back to when you first learnt to drive? When you were learning, what did you find the most challenging?

Well, my driving journey was one of two parts. My initial instructor, I had 20 lessons and failed. My second instructor, I had six lessons and passed with flying colors. And it was all about, for me, it was all about, being nervous about how I was being perceived. But that's just because of my driving. childhood stuff and personal things. Um, but I think the thing that struck out for me the most was, it was things like roundabouts and junctions because it wasn't straightforward. Like turning left, that's easy, right? Anyone can do that. Reversing around a corner, Slightly more difficult going around around about it's all about judgment, isn't it? And if you put one foot wrong where you go a little bit late, then it could be trouble and turning right into a filter lane. Oh my goodness. They really panicked me. I didn't like those at all. And then my second instructor was very, very relaxing and just put me in a state where he was like, you're absolutely fine. You're in control, very reassuring. And it, it switched something in me, you know, and then it all just kind of flowed from there. But initially it was like the fear of doing something wrong and the fear of causing an accident, I think were the two biggies for me. Yeah.

So what would be your advice to anybody who's learning at the moment, who's struggling with those same things?

Yeah. Go steady, make sure that you regulate before you go in a session and everything will flow from there. Because if you're afraid a hundred percent of the time, it means that you're. Prefrontal cortex is somewhat disengaged and you're dysregulated so just take a minute before you go in a lesson and tap underneath your collarbones and just breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth. I promise you it will be a lot easier after that point if you do that.

Yep, lovely. So on that note, I think we'll leave it there. That's brilliant. Yeah, great. Emma, thank you so much for joining us. Yes, thank you.

Thanks for having me, it's been an absolute pleasure and I didn't realise how close to my heart this was so thank you for that. What a joy!