And never once was I ever given a book by a person of color.

That's insane.

Yes. That's it. It doesn't, it doesn't happen today. We have new diverse folks, particularly for youth and for adults. But what you get again, is that book banding, that sense of suppression that they're taking us backwards. And it fits in line with that whole idea that, you know, blacks were forbidden to read and write. We weren't supposed to be educated. So in one form or another, you can call it black, It's still continuously about suppression of power and voice and denigrating rather than, you know, welcoming these wondrous citizens into the American system.

We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor, how we didn't even talk about this topic because we were afraid.

Executive perspective.

Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective Podcast. A safe space where we discuss all matters related to race, especially race in corporate America. I'm your host, Tony Tidbit. And we are live at WNHU 88. 7 on the Richter Dowdy University of New Haven podcast studio. We want to thank. The University of New Haven for allowing us to be able to record this, uh, important topic at a black executive perspective podcast. The students are back. So go chargers and have a great semester. We want everybody to graduate. All right. Number two, we want you to continue to follow our partnersCODE M Magazine, whose mission is first to save the black family. By saving the black man. So please check them out at CodeMMagazine. com. That is CodeMMagazine. com. So today, as you guys all are aware. Black history faced significant challenges, yet its relevance is more crucial than ever before. Engaging with history fosters self esteem, purpose, and resilience by highlighting the trials and triumphs of our ancestors. Without understanding history, we lose connection to our cultural heritage, which is essential. For personal growth and empathy. Our guest today, Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes will share her journey and discuss the importance of African American history through storytelling. She will show how these narratives build self esteem, empathy, and a deeper appreciation of cultural heritage. Let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Rhodes. Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes is a New York Times best selling and award winning educator and writer for both youth and adults. She is the Virginia G. Piper Endowed Chair at Arizona State University and the founding director of the Virginia V. Piper Center. for creative writing. Dr. Rhodes focus on environmental and social justice and believes through multi dimensional character driven stories, barriers break and empathy blossoms. Her talent is to combine African American heritage and history in both content and style and to emphasize it's relevant for modern audiences. Dr. Jewel Parker Rhodes, welcome to a Black Executive Perspective Podcast, my sister.

Thank you so much. That was just a beautiful introduction. I really appreciate it. You, you nailed the, the essence of what I try to do. So thank you.

Well, more importantly, thank you. I mean, at the day, you are touching lives all over the world, right? And, you know, one of the things that we'll definitely dive into is history is under attack today, right? And especially Black history. Okay. Absolutely. And the importance for, you know, African American people and not just even African American people, all people, To understand history as we, as we kick this off, you know, It, it, without knowing what our forefathers and foremothers accomplish or the trials and tribulations or, or all the things that, the mistakes, the, the, all those things, we're rutherless in terms of how we move forward because we're not planted with the seeds and the branches and the roots of that history. And so, I'm so excited to have you on today to talk about how we can get to digging up those roots and holding on to those roots and more importantly, watering those roots and sharing those branches. To not just African American people, but all people, all people around the world. So what's your, you know, and look, I know you ready to, you chomping, you, you, you, you about to come through the screen, Alright? So don't get me wrong, we gonna get you there. 'cause I'm excited too, because I wanna share with the audience what you've been doing and I want them to hear from you. But before we get deep. Tell us where are you, where you reside, and a little bit about your family.

Okay, I actually live, uh, in Seattle, Washington, so it's, uh, right now, a bright, sunshiny day. Uh, which is sometimes Seattle? Yes! Yes! It is. They

must be our lucky day. And

I have, um, I have a husband Brad and Brad is a Scotch Irish Norwegian. Uh, and we've been married for 40 years and we have a son and a daughter. And, uh, our son actually is black appearing a black man, uh, and our daughter. No, she's a black woman. She's white appearing. And so the whole issue of race and history and the mixing of the flat, you know, the mixed flat stew of African American peoples, which have made us African American peoples, not just Africans. We have lived that and live that journey of how society was trying to tear you apart because they don't believe you go together. So, as you said, with yeah. When I write, all my writing in one way or another is about our common humanity, and that skin tone is actually a superficial variant. There are over 4, 000 skin tones, but we always act as though it's just a strict dichotomy. So I write for adults and for children saying, you know, um, No, humanity, we're, we're all one. We're all mixed flat stew. And if we really want to get real about it, uh, at Arizona State, we have the Institute for Human Origins and we have Lucy's Bones and Lucy was a black woman. And as her children move, they just adapted color. So I love, Everything you said, you're so eloquent. And, um, it's what I try to do with my writing in my life. Show love, empathy, and compassion.

Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. And I appreciate you sharing. Now I'm, I'm going to be bold here is because, you know, I couldn't wait to get you on and talk about what we're going to talk about today. Which you just got finished talking about Lucy's bones. I'm automatically going to want you to come back, dive into that, right? Because you said Lucy's bones and make sure you know how to Lucy's bones. We got so many other type of bones and so many other different type of colors. You know, I'm used to neck bones cause that's where we grew up in Detroit. Or hand bones. Or hand bones, right? But you told me about Lucy's bones. So. I hope I can get, you know, I'm giving this invite now. So I hope by the end of the episode, you say, Tony, I'll come back on and talk about Lucy's bones,

whatever you want. And actually I must tell you, you know, how Lucy got her name. It was named after the Beatles, Lucy in the sky with diamonds. So we got to bring that in, you know, it's like, Whoa, yes.

I'm

all

for Dr. Rhodes. Yeah, she this, and I think I know, but I love our audience to know. You know, this is important. Why did you want to come on a black executive perspective podcast to talk about this topic?

Oh, well My whole life has been such a journey seeing um, I was part of the academic generation That created and helped You know, enforce the idea that stories about women's stories about ethnic groups were important. So in the Academy, we did not have ethnic studies or black studies or women's studies. My generation did that. I was also the kid who grew up in a world of Dick and Jane. So I did not even know that black people wrote books until I was a junior in college. And then I became adamant about Have the sense of us seeing ourselves me Discovering myself and my my journey has been a long one. You know, I'm I'm 70 years old and It's kind of like hey, we're still going back, you know with the murder of George Floyd the book banning So I kept coming back thinking things would become better and better as a civil rights era child, but we are going back and my books are banned now. So it's kind of like I feel with the power of the black executives, the power of the people, my people, um, you can continue that work, which you're doing. But also I wanted to speak to those who are fathers and mothers, uh, because I write for youth and young people. And adults, but particularly for youths, they have got to know the history. And as schools ban books, they're going to go back to when all I knew was Dick and Jane, and as schools won't even allow them to talk about the race riots and destruction of Jacksonville, Florida. And you go there for the, you know, the WB boy Du Bois conference and, and you see all these black faces. What do you mean? They can't know their history. But if you allow me one, one story, I was in Boston and. I was talking to a group of young black men about Ghost Boys, which is about the murder of Trayvon Tamir, but built on the foundation of Emmett Till. I was a child when Emmett Till was murdered, so I had that historical perspective of why is it still going on, you know? And then of course the men, like George Floyd. But this young black boy came out to me outside of the classroom and said, Dr. Rhodes, You mean this is a pattern, the killing of black children? It's a pattern. And then he looked at me and he said, you know, I always thought it was me. And I just broke down and had to hug him and cry that he had internalized, you know, this idea that because of his skin color, the problem was him and nobody was teaching him. Even though he was in a, you know, all black boys school or in a black community or mixed race community or whatever But our education system and our community have to help lift him and knowing the historical connections He was able to understand it's a pattern that has nothing to do with my own self esteem So that's why I do what I do and it took me a while Tony because I had to gather all of my My self esteem, when I started, you know, writing my first book when I was a junior in college, my classmates said, well, why didn't you tell me your characters were black? And I'd say, well, why don't you tell me your characters are white? And I learned how I had been indoctrinated, that I was reading white. So particularly when people like Toni Morrison came along, Alice Walker, they were my guideposts. And I started, Writing one part to discover myself, right? And then after I made myself more whole by knowing about my history, that it's sort of, I switched to telling the youth, let's have you start younger. So you don't have to wait to be a junior in college to know where you come from and who you are.

Right, right. I mean, listen, Dr. Rhodes, I mean, you, I was just in here mesmerized by hearing Um, what you were saying, why do you want to come on and then the story you talked about with the young man and, you know, I want to read something here that is part of your, um, biography. Right? So before I go there. You definitely ready to talk about it, right? You already I told you coming through the screen

Well, it also I love saying your name because my sister is a tony so it's like tody's you know Whether it's an anthony or antoinette or tony with an ie or an eye or why I love Tony's.

Okay. Well, I love it. And guess what? That means we're going to, we're going to talk about it. So let's talk about it. Dr. Rhodes, what I would like to do. Um, I want to go back.

Okay.

Because you just got finished saying, uh, you know, you are around. When Emmett Till, uh, was murdered, you've seen a lot of different things go on. You talked about, um, you know, you writing, uh, your first book when you were a junior, I believe, in college. Excuse me, you wrote your first book when you were eight, nine years old, if I remember correctly. Well, a little

tiny little story. A little story.

But the point I want to make is, even as you're, um, telling us, um, this information since you've been on thus far. It's all, it's all been in the story form. Okay. And I've learned a long time ago. People don't remember facts. They remember story. So I want to read this. Um, and this was in your bio story and I quote, and I believe this was in August 8th of 2017. My grandmother taught me how to tell stories. I grew up in a three brick, uh, three story brick house in Pittsburgh, raised by my grandparents. My dad lived there too, my aunt, my sister, my three cousins. They made nine of us totally squeeze in this building. None of us ever finding more than a few minutes of solitude at a time. To escape the heat and clutter, my grandmother and I sat on the stoop while she told me stories. Stories about our family, slavery, her Georgia childhood, stories about love, death, and life. I still vividly remember the lessons she taught. You never need an excuse for joy, she would say. Prejudice is sinful. All flat flows red. She told me, wear clean underwear. That was, that was all our parents. Don't let anyone ever think there's trash in you. I didn't realize it then, but my grandmother was also carrying on the African American oral tradition, turning me into another storyteller in a line that's continued for generations.

Oh, Tony, I'm so glad you read that. Um, I think of my grandmother every day and she actually died just as I was starting to make the decision that I'm going to be a writer. But one of the things I think that happened to me, um, Is that the American education system by having an absence of other cultures that, you know, it was sort of like there was no sense of, Oh, what your grandmother taught you is the most valuable when you're a kid from the kid's perspective. And I remember sitting in a college classroom and having this professor say that anything of value and worth done in the world has been done by white people. Western civilization. And I just knew my bones. That's not true. So literally, I had to undo a mis education and dig into the roots. And that's why people like me at that era, we were the ones that said, you have to get us into the academy. We need to have majors because I went through eight years of undergraduate and graduate schooling, uh, all my elementary to high school and never once. Was I ever given a book by a person of color?

That's insane.

Yes, that's it doesn't it doesn't happen today. We have new diverse books, particularly for youth and for adults, but what you get again is that book banding that sense of suppression that they're taking us backwards. And it fits in line with that whole idea that, you know, blocks are forbidden to read and write. We weren't supposed to be educated. So in one form or another, you can call a book banding. Now, it's still cool. Continuously about suppression of power and voice and denigrating rather than, you know, welcoming these wondrous citizens into the American system. And that happens in corporate politics, happens in politics, politics, academic politics. Um, so I want, I want the legacy to continue on. So my grandma, my appreciation grew for her, you know, that I had to undo to see clearly. And then it was like, Oh my God, you know, so every, every novel that I write, there is an elder, there is a grandma or a grandfather figure. And That has to do with the fact that our schools say this is the right way and sometimes then they demean our family values and particularly for grandma. Um, she never finished the third grade, you know, my father and mother didn't graduate high school. So the projection of the stereotype of the kids from my north side community in Pittsburgh, then was, you know. Handicapping. Do you know what I mean? And so it's like, so because they couldn't see and they were offering this other thing, but they didn't say, bring along your roots with you, you know, and my grandparents and father, um, they were busy making a living. So it's literature. Through writing, through discovering myself, that I realized that always black families have been the bulwark, and what happens is sometimes we don't see their power because we've been miseducated, or the society tries to pull us away from that power into a white western tradition that we don't see. And that's why I'm here. Models that rather than, nah, I tell the dozens. I exaggerate. You know, I talk like the folk and on the porch. And one of the things that really freaks me out is that a lot of black youth aren't necessarily reading black Speech block. I try to capture black oral speech in my novels and all the copy editors say, Oh, but that's, you know, not standard English. And I'd say leave my words alone. I know it's not. I'm writing from the rhythm of my grandmother on the porch. And I'm powerful enough now to do that after all these, all these years. So just like Tony Morrison was a revelation to us, you know, 40 some years ago, we still have it. Yeah. Western linear storytelling and Western standard English telling black stories. And I wanted to have children hear that grandmother's voice, hear their father, our uncle's voice, and recognize that black people tell stories differently. It's focused on rhythm, orality, and sometimes it's not beginning, middle, and end, sometimes it could be the end. And then you get to the middle or maybe the beginning, you know, and that every culture has its own way of saying it But again, a lot of black writers are being um taught western traditions in terms of creative writing or other kinds of writing

Right, right. So it was funny You said a lot there It's funny though because you're right we you know Our our parents when I was coming up, they don't they don't go in Numerical order and beginning, you know, my mother would say, my mother would say, I'm gonna kick your ass. And then I'm gonna tell you why Punishment comes first and then I explain right which is explained first, right? And then the punishment but you know But that and look we're making fun. But here's the thing though. You said a lot um, and I you know as you were as you You We're, um, talking. I was just flashing back to my own history, right? And how I grew up and I can imagine and I was trying to put myself or jettison myself going back in terms of being that young kid and hearing my mother tell stories or my uncle or whatever the case may be. And then when I go to school, I don't see those stories. They don't show up on in the book. There's nothing, you know, uh, based on what grandma, grandpa said, you know, even going back to what your, your grandmother said. Prejudice is sinful, flat colors, red. You don't see no book when you was coming up in school. That said that, right? So a lot of times to your point, what you were saying, a lot of times we don't until we get older, we don't even, you know, Really understand that what our parents are telling us how valuable that is when we leave and go to school, we're looking for some connection to that that substantiates what they told us right now. We learn that later on as we get older, as we are trying to navigate the world. But if you're 8, 9, 10 years old, you want to see some of that show up in the school lesson or some of that. from in the history book, because then that makes you that that's part of that plant, that part of that root that you feel good about you. And then if you don't hear that, and all you hear and and all you seen is a Western civilization standpoint, right where your face. Your stories, your, your written or oral word is not even there. How does that make you feel good about you?

It's time to rethink your protein. Adderalabs protein bars are crafted with high quality protein, double the leucine and enriched branched chain amino acids, essential for optimal muscle recovery. There's finally a protein bar that works as hard as you do. So visit adrelabs. com and use the code BEP to get 20 percent off. That's adrelabs. com promo code B E P.

I can give you an example, uh, there was this young girl in California who was telling her story to the class and she was using exaggeration, which is a great technique, you know, for, for black humor and black culture exaggerating, you know, your mama, you know, and how big is that, you know, and she was berated and called a liar. Because she was using a storytelling method that the teacher just simply couldn't empathize with or appreciate, you know, the same with the whole notion of connecting it to the school to prison pipeline or connecting it to Emmett Till's death or Tamir Rice's death that. Children, in particular, are so vulnerable because they're not, they're not seen, or the way that they're seen, they're seen as more sexually mature, as older, you know, or, or, or, you know, thuggish in a way that's not apropos or right at all. And when I was writing my novel, Black Brother, Black Brother and Ghost Boys, you know, I would find videos of, um, like a five year old girl. Being handcuffed and put into a police car and it makes you wonder what could a five year old possibly do to have that happen? Or I saw a clip where these young boys were playing shoot em up and that's part of our society, you know, which we're trying to get rid of, you know, but I grew up during the western era and certainly didn't know all the politics about that and all the oppression, but you know, there's just playing shoot em up. So we have detective stories of the thing and a police officer, you know, came and told them. You know, I could have killed you, you know, I could have seen you as a threat and the girl, the boys got so scared. The remark was made that how lucky those boys were, how lucky to have had this nice police officer tell them they can't play. Guns like a white kid because of these other kinds of things and I'm like what that's not a favor That's another way. No, that's not a favor. That's another brutalizing of our our children So I always wanted to write for children and I spent writing for adults, trying to become good enough to write for them, to try to have the complexities of literature so that they could understand nuances of what's at work in our society that opened up their, their minds and their hearts. And I also wanted to write for the classroom. So one of the things that I have accomplished, and I really love this is a lot of teachers teach my books in schools and I That also came from when I was raising my children, every black history month, you know, they read the same book, Virginia Hamilton, Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, which is a wonderful book, but why is it, you know, my kids are 36 and 34, all the years difference between them and over the years, there was only one black text they got, which was better than the none that I got. But I wanted my books to be in the classroom because it's more powerful that way, because the teachers then have to start talking about culture and understanding it. So they don't call a child a liar for using black storytelling methods or don't demean, you know, a black child because, Oh, you didn't take part in the Oklahoma land rush. Oh yes, they did. Black people were there. Uh, so it's that discovery.

No, that is awesome. And I love to. You know, you, you're saying that you, your, your books are being taught in the classroom. Give us a couple of examples of what, what type of books, what's the name? Well, ghost

boys is, um, a national, national bestseller, and it's taught all over the world. It's a way to talk about racism and implicit bias. And I don't demonize anyone. But I show the complexity and in my, my book, cause it's from a black perspective, um, African American ghosts and spirits are real. Grandma taught me that the line between the dead and the living is very, very thin. flat out! I know, I know! flat out! Laughing Sorry. No, you know what

I'm talking about. Yeah, that's right. I don't like that too. flat

out! Well, my, I'm convinced my grandmother, she was the wife of a Methodist priest. Preacher, but she was also a hoodoo lady. I know it. So, so when I started thinking about how to write the book, you know, it starts with the murder and then the boy comes back as a ghost and he meets the ghost of all the other dead children. And he's wondering, why am I doing this? Why am I meeting the ghost? And one, I wanted. See, to me, it's a Western tradition to have a book that builds up to the young black man being shot and everybody else gets woke. Okay? That's one tradition. I wanted to honor, because I think it's more appropriate to the black tradition, that, That person, even in death, has power. They are not a victim. So my ghost boys are looking for people who have good hearts, uh, open minds, who aren't racist, who are going to do something to make the world better. So I posit Emmett Till in Thurgood Marshall, you know, he was there at the trial. And in my book, The only other person that can see the ghost boy of my character Jerome and Emmett Till is Sarah, the white police officer's daughter. Her dad is wrong, and she and her dad have their thing. But why could she see it? Because there are some young white students. Kids who do have that good heart. We are making progress. You don't have the racism and the implicit bias. And then there's Carlos, you know, who's, you know, the Mexican American kid, um, who like had the gun and feels guilty about his friend, but he connects with the black family because Dia de los Muertos is like, you know, uh, the black folks coming back and he decides to become the older brother to the black the sister that survived. So I probably didn't say that very well, but it's a very complicated book and it's left so that kids talk about, well, did the police officer, was he racist or did he have bias? And then talk about, but does it matter? Cause the kid is still dead. And then the idea that if we're going to, um, You have to honor, honor the dead. And so the book ends with the message, a little poem, you know, of Jerome, the ghost. I can go on now. Cause I found somebody who's living. Only the living can make the dead better to make life better. I found somebody living to carry on for justice. So he says, don't let me or anybody else tell this tale again. You know, so we've got to keep passing it down through the generations, but not just in our culture, but across cultures. And if we're trying to honor the dead, then it's sort of like we owe it to the slaves that were thrown off the slave ship because, you know, they were re They were being hunted by the insurers of the British, um, the black people and all people that died in 9 11, you know, the, the, the, um, you know, the Buffalo soldiers, the black men who fought on the union side for freedom to fight discrimination. I always stop and say, what right do I have to complain, you know, things are getting better and we're going to make them better yet. But my books always had that affirmation that an individual has agency and power to. Art, storytelling, relationships, even calling out your parents and saying, no, that's not right. He was only 12 like me because you can love your parents, but still disagree with them. So it's that agency I want the kids to have so that they can get to their growth faster that it took me to get to mine.

That is awesome. Let me ask you this question. Is that book banned now?

Yes. In parts of Florida. You're kidding me. Hold on. Yes. Yes. And actually, I did think about, you know, and I spent two years and that book nearly broke me because grandma also taught me, um, you don't do unto others, or you do unto others as you want to be done unto. But having been part of a stereotype Repressed race. How dare I turn around and do that to somebody else, you know, so the book is perfectly balanced, you know With it ask questions and discussions and it's inclusive so you could have Hispanic kids in other books have Asian kids or I always have multicultural characters So the white kid sitting in class can see I have a role to play too as well as a black kid seeing Oh, I'm not just the victim and everybody else's victim You know, getting enlightened, but I even have power. My ancestors have power, and now I'm one, one of them. So the Miami Dade police chief, I believe it was, um, basically went to the school board and said that this taught kids to hate police and the school board banned it, which is really interesting because then you think about the logic of why should a police officer tell an educated school board about what's right for curriculum? Um,

It seemed like they were just looking for any reason to get rid of any African American book. Yes, they

were. So it's actually for Seattle. They're going to have a video that they're going to spread around because Seattle is a city of literature, UNESCO city of literature. And they're making a big deal Point that they don't ban Ghost Boys. Um, because it's California, parts of California, parts of Utah, parts of Texas, you know, ban it. And now there's like Romanian editions. There's a Persian edition, uh, you know, Taiwanese, um, Chinese, you know, uh, you name it. But another book of mine that's banned in some places, it's Black Brother, Black Brother. That's the book.

Dr. Rhodes, I'm sorry. I just got to back you up for a second.

If you like what you hear and want to join us on this journey of making uncomfortable conversations comfortable, please subscribe to a Black Executive Perspective podcast on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hit subscribe now to stay connected for more episodes that challenge, inspire, and lead the change.

Okay. Sure. I heard, I heard what I heard. Yes. Okay. You're, and I could have been wrong, right? I might have missed it. Your book, Ghost Boys, now there's versions, uh, uh, uh, a Chinese version. There's all these other versions of your book. That can be read across this world.

Yes.

From different groups. Yeah. And it's banned in Florida. That's what I'm hearing.

Yes. That's what I'm hearing here. Yes. There's a, uh, in Hong, in Hong Kong, uh, there's a international school where I get letters from them every year. I've done zooms with kids in Sweden. There's a German edition, you know, the British edition and Romania. Yeah. And then it's really interesting how they do the covers and the pictures. And, but yeah, that this novel is, uh, read internationally and it's banned in parts of America.

That is, that makes, that makes no sense. Sense. No sense. No sense. However, number one, thanks for sharing that. I mean, if everyone listening, you got to go pick that book up. She's got a ton of them. Okay. But you got to get that because that, that speaks right to the heart and I love the story. Now you wrote, uh, uh, look, uh, I could be here all day of all the books you wrote, talk a little bit about magic city, which is about the Tulsa race riot.

Well, when I was starting to write, uh, You know, when I was a junior in college, I would just say very quickly. First and foremost, I latched on The character Marie Laveau, the voodoo queen from New Orleans, because I love to cook and I had a Louisiana cookbook and in that book, I learned about this powerful black woman and started delving in. Why is our spiritual traditions seen as so quote barbaric unquote, and it's much deeper than that. And so when I got done with that, I'm like, looking for what else do I want to write about? And in 1983 and parade magazine, there was an article article and a picture of a black community, Deep Greenwood, that had been bombed by the U. S. National Guard from the air and completely raised. And over 4000 African Americans were given green cards and told to be living tent cities during Oklahoma when it's cold. And then there were the unmarked graves, the mass cemeteries. They think anywhere from three to maybe hundreds more people are buried. And they've just now started uncovering them. I think they've uncovered two that they've been able to identify. There were 11 uncovered in 1921 in a mass grave, but they're now going through the process of trying to designate who, who are these people. So I wrote a novel about. Magic City about Oklahoma because I was like, how the heck did Oklahoma people, black people get to Oklahoma? I've never heard of Deep Greenwood. I never heard of, you know, a Tulsa race massacre. And it's like I just started digging and exploring, um, and actually discovered it was hooked up to the idea that we had all our black soldiers, the World War I vets, the 369th men who fought bravely. And a segregated army who, when they came home, you know, and marched down, you know, New York streets and in Harlem with their bayonets, that literally Klan membership that had been on the decrease in America increased when they saw this block. Yes, this block. brave, strong manhood. And throughout the next couple years, they were always these red summers, you know, in Chicago, in Atlanta and different kinds of magic cities or hometowns in Kentucky's with the blocks when they got home from work were told, Oh, you get on the train, you're leaving here. So all of that history, plus, you know, the timing of it and a young black man was accused of assaulting a white woman. And that's what's done. Was excused so supposedly for the bombing as it turns out, they were doing a land grab. They wanted to put a railroad through the town, but they use the white woman as a trope, you know, and actually, this white woman, Sarah Page said, Dick Roland, the shoe shine. No, he didn't touch me. And they ran her out of town because she was a working woman, so she couldn't have been a good woman anyway. So it was also trying to show that they used different groups of people against one another. And also at that time, Oklahoma, they were lynching Jews, they were lynching pro labor people, they were just like a lawless stream. But in Magic City, it was like, I took Jewish and African American history and combined them. Because I'm a young man who Wrote a dissertation about Magic City, who since has gone on to write wonderful books. His name's Scott Ellsworth. You know, he talks about prior to them trying to lynch Dick Rowland, they had, in fact, lynched a Jewish man. And that it's part of the Jewish community that was trying to keep uncovered the story of the Tulsa race. Massacre. So I started putting in Harry Houdini because we're the spiritualism movement and he was Jewish and he was trying to bring people back from the dead and then here comes. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. And then in one time, he almost died himself because he was trying to do a trick and the ground was too harsh and he couldn't get out. But in my novel, my right. My black character, his name is Joe, based on Dick Rowland, the shoeshine and a white woman's name, Mary. So Joe and Mary, the Christian theme, um, Joe, uh, Joe's brother comes back from the war as it goes from the war. And it's sort of like, Hey, I got my own tradition, you know, and it's his brother who's telling him that the magic and the spirituality. So by the end of the novel, my young black man does not leave. He's on the train to get out of Oklahoma. But he jumps off and says no I am going back I am going to fulfill my dream and be part of my community. You're not gonna run me out of town So for me, it was a very spiritual enlightening moment But that book was out of print and then they reissued it for the hundredth anniversary which was in 20, I think, uh, or 2021. And then George, George Floyd was murdered in 2021. And then people started talking on TV about the Tulsa race massacre, but in Oklahoma, they never taught that. And a lot of people in American history didn't know that, that there was an uncovered, you know, race, race riot. But I had written that novel in 19. So I've always been interested in like, how come I didn't know this? And a lot of my books were ahead of their time. So Magic City was reissued, Douglas Women about Frederick Douglass, um, and his black, illiterate wife and his white, uh, literate mistress, um, was, you know, uh, made a big, big splash. They are reissuing that in 2025. And some people even call me the grandmother of urban fantasy because of voodoo dreams. And I got the Octavia Butler award, but I just followed my own curiosity and dug at stories that. Maybe we're just, well, they were not too early for this world, but the world treated them as though they were too early. And so now I'm getting more of this appreciation for what I was doing and have been doing my entire career.

Rightfully so. Right. Rightfully so. You know, it's interesting. Um, you know, and when we look back, you know, I always said, um, Marvin Gaye, okay, was ahead of his time.

Yes, he was.

Okay, his music today still, you know, uh, it's, it's, it hits the net on the head on the nail today. And it was written 50, 60 years ago, recorded 50, 60 years ago. And that's what I'm hearing about you as well. Right. Is that you're telling stories, stories that people don't even know about stories that you wrote 30, 40 years ago that now everybody's digging into. Oh, we didn't know that we, and this is the, and this goes back to how we, we started, how history is so important. Okay. Knowing history. Black, white, Jewish, the whole nine yards because at the end of the day, without that, we're again flying rudderless. We don't have anything to plant and we're making stuff up. And then more importantly, and I want to jump to big brother brick was a big brother, black brother. Okay. I want to go there because that's interesting as well. But One of the things, especially in the African American community, especially when we talk about our youth, and I'm, and I'm even putting myself in this because I dealt with this growing up, is the lack of confidence of being an African American young boy or young girl, not seeing Other people that look like you and then not being able to read. I remember when I was a kid, um, my mother started dabbling with Jehovah witness. Okay. And they would come by and do a Bible study and then they would have their books and stuff to that nature. And I remember at Bible study and they would have all these pictures of white people, you know, in heaven. And I asked as a 10 year old, I never forget this. I think it was nine. I said, where did black people come from?

All right.

And then I remember the lady saying, and she was black and she said, oh, they came further on down the road. Okay. And it just, I just like, I, you know, I didn't push back, but how did that make me feel when I'm seeing all these other people that God loves them. I'm seeing pictures of them, but they, I don't see nobody that look like me. Okay. So this isn't so important and not abandon it. I mean, it, it, it, it, it, again, we can go into that, but talk a little bit about black brother, black sister, and you can respond to what I just said too, as well.

Well, you know, um, that whole idea of justifying, you know, skin tone, which made it easy or for, you know, the slave masters to track people down in America. They had also that, yes, that, and also the Irish

was the indenture servant, but they melded in and look like, and change their

name. Yes. And, and, uh, And also then the idea that black people were the children of Cain, you know, so you were the bad son and that's why you practice. Yes. Yes. Yes. The

Bible to say you supposed to be a slave.

Yes, exactly. And, um, you know, you can just go on and on and down the line of how that skin tone, that color has been, been, uh, been used against us and just how wrong it is and how it still lives on. It's like when you, I said, when I talk to children, I talk, have you ever like put dye in a glass of water and then you want to like get the color out? So I add more and more water, but it never, you can never get it out, you know? And it's kind of like this kind of like the drip racism in our culture. It's still there. You might not see it. It might be diluted in some spaces, but do not fool yourself at it. That it's gone away. Just like, you know, when we had, uh, the watching, my son went to the march in Charlottesville, you know, Jews will not replace us. And that was like, that's the Tulsa race massacre, Jews and blacks, forget of it. And then, you know, Trump gets elected on and on and on, but black brother, black brother, I was just trying to point out how. The skin tone. Some black kids get put in the school to prison pipeline, which then affects their entire life. And if a child is expelled or suspended too frequently, that also affects their entire life. They're less likely to graduate from college, high school or college, and they're more likely to end up in a prison system. So I've watched how, you know, my son and daughter have grown up and people will swear to me they can't possibly be brother and sister. One of them had to be adopted or I might. It was my mother's, my daughter's nanny, or my husband would get pats on the back. Oh, you adopted a black child, you know, but if you look at us, our features, we're family. You can see it. It's, it's right there, but people, and you said the word don't see. They project what they think is there, but they don't see. So the message of Black Brother, Black Brother, because the two brothers stand strong in loyalty and love, is that, I'm going to be me. You know, and I'm telling the children, be you. Even if others don't see you. So it turns out they've got the problem, the speck in their eye, not you. And it's also about fencing. I don't know if you know, but in the last two Olympics, we've had more diverse fencers, you know, in a Baji Muhammad, uh, in, in a hijab and, um, uh, wonderful black men, black British men. And a lot of that was due to this great man named Peter Westbrook, who runs a fencing club for many years in New York city that he would. Give lessons and still does, uh, to youth for free. And from his studio, he started this whole mission of black kids, getting scholarships to college, traveling the world, winning world class titles. And I have a nephew in law who's one of them, you know, and change the sport and change that perception that. Oh, fencing is only for rich white people, you know, and black people, because you're poor, you could play with a ball. Um, but in fencing, it's a game of strategy. It's an individual sport with a team sport. But I come to find out that Alexander Dumas, who wrote all those great fencing novels, he was a black Frenchman.

Wow,

how come I didn't know that because I actually like swords and fencing and so the kids learn, you know The three musketeers they were probably black and that alexander Yeah, well, there's a show where they have one of them is black. Right, but I would I say they could all be black because um, alexander dumas father Was known as the great black general He was the powerhouse of napoleon's army and when they invaded into africa He was such a Statues black man on this beautiful black horse that Napoleon got pissed off because all of the Africans thought oh He's Napoleon so the story of him being disappeared came up in the story of the man in the iron mask and the prejudice came out and It's just interesting but a Bach man He was an intellectual a famous general the best fencer and they disappeared him and when he died He died He was buried in a hopper's grave and France has a great cemetery for all their great authors, you know, like Victor Hugo, you know, uh, and it wasn't until a couple of decades back that they, uh, re interned, you know, Dumas in the, in the French literary cemetery and gave him the honors due. But what does that say to all the. Black kids who could say, well, I'm not good at this sport, but I can do this sport because there are people who have done it and done it greatly. The same for swimming, the same for hockey, the same, you know, all those things that there are opportunities that our children could benefit from. And I think of all the lost great black fencers, the polo maker, the things that their lives are already limited because we're not seeing images. So this guy uses fencing and fencing, you wear the mask. So we take off the mask. Then you see the color of the black man. Yes, yes, but that book is banned and I think it's banned because it's still for some people. The idea that people could marry across races is still awful. So when we talk about, you know, the white supremacist and you can't tell me they're not mixed flat, they're just fooling themselves with ever. They think they're pure white, but it's. I think it's literally banned because it's, uh, it's anti miscegenation. People don't want to think that a black and white person or a white and Japanese person, and Peter Westbrook, by the way, is Japanese and African American. They don't want to believe that love exists because the black Brother ends with all the kids in the school doing a project of exploring their own heritage. And the boys are wearing t shirts. Heritage is lit. You know, what's yours? Or, you know, it's wonderful to find out these stories. So that's a wondrous ending. And yet that book is banned.

You know, what's funny though, you know, and let's go back to that spirituality. Right. I remember as a kid, six, seven, we used to watch the old Earl Flynn movies. You remember when, right. And he would pull out his sword on guard and then me and my brother would grab the curtain rods and we would, you know, try to fence blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. What if we saw a black Earl Flynn? Yes. Yes. Yes. Saying on God. All right. And again, it just don't, I don't know, but I'm shocked that that book is, you know, it's just so disheartening that these books are banned. Okay. Um, But what's not disheartening is me and, um, Noelle sitting here being memorized, uh, mesmerized by the stories that you tell, okay, and the education in those stories, because a lot of the things you just got finished talking about throughout this episode is some, a lot of stuff. I had no clue as well. Okay. And. As I'm sitting here listening, and I, I again try to think not just of myself, but other people who would know these things, how they would feel up and feel good to hear how these stories make you feel good. Yeah, right. It makes a self a sense of, of, of appreciation, a self of accomplishment, a self of you know what? I'm not alone. I is not. You know what we do? We were fencers or we did. We, you know, they thought we were Napoleon or we can go over and over and over, right? And that sense gives you a, that, that, that knowledge, I should say, gives you a sense of Confidence.

Yes.

That if they did it, if I can learn about them and they and I can see them and hear their stories, then guess what? I can make my own story. So one thing I want to ask you, because I know you're writing some new book. So tell us about the new book

that you're writing. Um, well, actually I finished it and it's called wills race for home and you can get a preorder discount on Barnes Noble for the next two days. And actually, when I wrote magic city line, right now, and it's 35%, if you remember, but I had, um, Uh, written in Magic City that, you know, how did black people get there? And I had written that they had gotten there from the land, land rush. But in Will's Race for Home, it's a middle grade novel. I go into it deep. And it's like right after 25 years after Emancipation Proclamation, you know, and I put in Juneteenth down in Texas and it's a father and son who are sharecroppers and they see Land rush 160 acres for those who come to the unassigned lands, before Oklahoma was a state and they make the journey, and I did not know that there were hundreds of black people who were making that journey. There was even a movement to create a black state with a owned black mayor in Oklahoma before it became a US state. And one of the things that they meet, they meet a young man, oh. Not so young, but a man named Caesar, he was a soldier, a sergeant in the Union army. And he's just trying to get to water in California. He has killed and killed in order to help come make people free. And he lives in a world of the cowboys where anytime anybody sees him, they want to shoot. You know, it's kind of like that, you know, I want to prove that, you know, my gun is faster than, than your gun. Plus in Texas and in Oklahoma, you have the Confederacy. And so there's these ex Confederate soldiers who are after him, but he decides, I'm going to put my guns down and I'm going to go with his father and son, help them claim their land. And he actually can't. Can't succeed at that and he has to he has to leave But one of the messages that he says is that I would fight the union I fight on the union army over and over again if it meant up their world could have a boy like you To have a young boy because he has to make the journey by himself The last part of it will it's will strength that carries them through and he claims the land And then these white men try to steal it from him but Will surprises them because he can read his mama taught him and he's just wonderful. And then Will makes a decision. Well, do I want to be this gunman or do I want to be the father like my dad? You know, and no, what do I want to be? And he makes a decision. And to me, that's why all of our generations of ancestors have worked so that. Every child would have the equal right to decide their own future based on their own inner passions and to make those decisions. So it's like, yeah, Caesar, you have to go because as much as you did for me, I don't, I can't model my life on you. And Caesar bravely says, yeah,

did you ever see the movie Shane? You know Shane, who got shot at the end? Shane. Shane, the Cowboy movie, right? The Cowboy movie. There's a scene where I, I

have Shane. Shane saves the white family. Um, but he has to go out and kill some people. uh, and the little boy you know, is crying. Shane, come back. Shane come back. You know? 'cause he's been so meaningful to the family. Mm-Hmm. My story is a reverse of that, where a black man one had the courage to say, no, I'm just gonna be. Bring you trouble not because of who I am but because I fought for freedom And even though the war has ended the racism still exists Okay So i'm going to leave and a young black boy instead of saying shane come back or caesar come back Has a strength to say Yes, you have to go and he's going to stand on his own two feet as his own young man And to me that's a classic difference between what a white boy could do in those times Versus a black kid and the way in which our children are Sort of pressured to grow up in a different kind of way, or like we were talking earlier, weathering that they get weathered by race. If they're 12 years old, 8 year old, whatever, even though we might not imagine it. And so my books try to fight against that weathering and those black land rushers, they were the ones that went ahead and, you know, 20 some years later. Bill Deak Breedwood, the richest black community in America, called the Negroes Wall Street. And then what happened? It was bombed from the air. So that sort of sense of history, you know, we take two steps forward and then step back, or the wave crashes forward and then it pulls, you know, the the The sand stuff in and seeing that pattern to the historical novels, to all of our history, I think, can help keep our resilience strong. Um, but certainly, um, you know, when, when was the last time, like, we talk about Bass Reeves, you know, the black, You know, Marshall, but just even the idea that, yeah, there were black people everywhere in this world, and we don't know their stories. So, as a Western writer, I have a particular advantage because I don't just have to talk about the South to North migration, but I wanted to talk about, you know, there were a lot of black people went West, and my family actually went to California for a while originally, and that made all the difference in the world for us in our sort of generational accomplishments. Thanks. Wow, we're everywhere.

Yeah. Yeah, we're I mean not only we're everywhere, but we have a story to tell and when there's a history about this as well Final thoughts. Where do you want to leave the audience? Dr. Rhodes?

More than More than anything, I want, I would, I would like you to read my books and share books with my children and share books with, with the schools. And quite honestly, my personal philanthropy is giving away lots of books, you know, cause I never had any when I was growing up, but wherever you are, wherever you live, I'm sure there's a boy scout or girl scout troop, or there's a public school that doesn't have a library. Um, there are, kids in the juvenile justice system who could use books. You know, if you're going to buy a book, if you can buy one for yourself or don't buy one for yourself, but buy and give one to someone else who can't get it. Books have gotten expensive. And I have a letters from editors who once told me, you know, black people don't read books. And that was why they couldn't publish me and diversity. We have more diverse books, but they are retrenching that again, we're going, we're going backwards.

Right.

But rather, Then all of that, it's the touching of that one child. So someone who can't afford, has the need, should know, just be generous and give it to that, that person. Um, please, you know, um, and if you need help, uh, I, everybody in my family, they know if you want to get a present from Jewel, it's going to be a book that She donated or hundreds of, I'm giving hundreds of books in New York city. I, if you need help, I'll be happy to help you. That is all I do. Cause I've been across our country and I've been in schools that were predominantly black where literally they had no books or they had one or two. I've been to a school in Chicago where it was all black and they had everybody from K through eight come to see me, but the library couldn't afford to have My book, they didn't have it, you know, and also they didn't have any little letters for the little kids to send the check in with from their mama and dada to buy a book. Right? And I remember this driver saying to me, Oh, this is very special. Your publisher sent you to an audience. It's not going to buy your book, but they sent you anyway. And I was so cool. hurt because I had just come from a school out in the suburbs that had every bell and whistle you can imagine that was predominantly white and every single one of them had their little pieces of paper signed so I could sign and give a book to them. So it's not just black people, it's rural people, um, Native people, Hispanic people. The underfunding of public education is awful, but a child having one book that they could hold. It can change their life. It literally can. It changed my life and helped make me who I am.

Amen to that. Dr. Oh my God. Dr. Jewel Parker Rhodes, we want to thank you for coming on a Black Executive Perspective, sharing your story, your perspective, the history that we all need to learn. And more importantly, your last message about Giving and sharing books to our youth to make sure that they can grow up and learn about who they are. And more importantly, how that could change their lives, change your life. So I want to thank you. We're going to put your information up on our website. We want to help push books to school. So I'm going to circle back with you where we can discuss with me and my team and yourself and how we can partner and we can push out and give out a lot of books because I just think someone like yourself. I mean, and again, you're very accomplished, but I just think there's so much that you're doing that we need to help amplify that. And push that out so more people can see it hear it and get involved with it.

Oh, thank you No, i'm there. I'm there. I'm there to help, you know, and uh, lots of times I will in fact get busy But particularly for title one schools. I try to give my heart sometimes i've i've flown there Or done zooms in particular because that kid was me That, you know, and it's so many more and having, it's like that Langston Hughes's dream deferred. We are still having too many undereducated children or miseducated children having dreams deferred, but worse than the dream deferred, they don't even know that there are dreams they could have. They don't see it. Exactly,

exactly. Thank you again, Dr. Rhodes, but stay there because Dr. Rhodes is going to help us with our call to action. So I think it's now time for Tony's tidbit. And the tidbit today is also based on what we talked about with Dr. Rhodes and the tidbit I quote, to ignore African American history is to ignore a crucial part of our collective story as a nation. It is through understanding and acknowledging this history that we can work towards a more inclusive and edible future for all. And you heard that today by Dr. Rhodes. So also, every Thursday, please, Don't forget to check out needs to know by Dr. Nasingha Burton, who brings the knowledge on things that you need to keep up on. Right? So every Thursday, check her out, tune in. She's going to give you the insights, the knowledge on the issues that matter that's here on a black executive perspective podcast. I hope you enjoyed today's episode, uncovering history and empowering the self confident self with a conversation with Dr. Jewel Parkin Rhodes. So now. I think it's time for our call to action. And for those, if this is your first time listening or watching a black executive perspective podcast, our mission. Is to decrease all forms of racism. And to do that, we have a call to action called less L E S S. And this is something that every person, every human being can do on their own. So we can be able to decrease all forms of racism. So L stands for learn. You want to learn as Dr. Rhodes talked about, you want to learn about history that you don't know. You want to learn about cultural nuances from different races so you can become more enlightened.

And E which stands for Empathy, learning and understanding and sharing different perspectives. Empathy is, but brings a compassion that we have to our own sort of human nature, you know, across every sort of distinction of age, gender, religion, race, et cetera. And finally, S. Share. Talk. Share. Give what you know to others. In particular, tell your stories to your children. Encourage your grandparents to tell their stories. Share your views of the world.

Absolutely, and the final S is You wanna, we wanna stop all forms of discrimination as it walks into our path. So if you hear Auntie Gail say at the Thanksgiving table something inappropriate, you say, Auntie Gail, we don't believe that, we don't say that. And you stop it right there. And by everyone incorporating less, L E S S. We're going to build a more understanding, more inclusive world. And more importantly, we'll all see the change that we want to see. Because less will become more so you can follow a black executive perspective on all the podcast platforms. You can also follow us on our social Facebook, LinkedIn, Tik TOK X in YouTube at a black exec for our fabulous, passionate. Oh, yes. Dr. Parker Jewel Rhodes. We love you to death for the lady behind the glass. Noel Miller, who's making all this happen. I'm Tony tidbit. We talked about it. Guess what? We learned about it today and we're out

a black executive perspective.