the view real quick.
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Hold on, let me just change the view so that I see you.
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um
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better because that way, okay, this way I won't be distracted.
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All right.
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Okay, so here you are.
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Do I look like I'm looking at you?
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Okay, great.
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a little bit, but mostly you're looking at me.
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Okay, all right, so.
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um
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Okay.
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You made mention of an article by Adam Grant and the thought I had when you were talking
about that was that sometimes those softeners or you made the point that what Adam said in
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the article was the softeners can sometimes actually assist in getting the outcome you
want.
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And I thought, well, I wonder how much does that have to do with the double bind that in
particular for women, right?
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the double bind around, uh, you can't be both likable.
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Can't be both perceived as likable and capable.
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Right?
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Right.
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The more likable you are, the less capable people think you are.
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And the more capable you are, the less likable people think you are.
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And so by adding the softener, you're sort of hedging towards you can like me still, even
though I'm going to say this thing that I'm going to say next, but you're, I'm still
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likable.
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Yeah, it's complicated.
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And this is why even the highest level executives and leaders are still coming into a
coaching session and wanting to work on communication because every conversation, every
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person that you encounter is going to be different and present its own challenges for you.
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mean, when I think about communication as a coaching topic, I really think about it as
what you said earlier, which is it's the interpersonal.
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It's about
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working effectively with others in how we are trying to communicate our message in a way
that they will hear us.
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Which, go ahead.
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well, and to your point about context matters, are you speaking to someone you report
into?
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Are you speaking to a peer and trying to influence your peer?
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Are you speaking to a direct report, right?
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That the words you choose, the tone of voice, the body language, all of that should be
thought through.
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have the authority in that relationship or not?
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And I've even encountered recently a few leaders who are having a challenging time
embodying a more directive, or we might say assertive, to use Jefferson's language, style
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of leadership, because it doesn't feel like them, or it doesn't, there's a discomfort
there.
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Part of, I think what you were talking about earlier in coaching is that being, who do you
want to be?
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And so there may be again some inner dialogue to work on around, it's okay to be
assertive, to hold somebody accountable.
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It's not the same thing as being mean to your partner, being likable, right?
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right, right, right.
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Now you had said there was a point you wanted to make about defensiveness.
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Do you want to make that now?
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Yeah, well we were just sort of talking about the, I can't remember exactly how we got to
defensiveness, but one of the last chapters in the book, chapter 11, was probably my
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second favorite around defensiveness.
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And Jefferson talks about how to be less defensive.
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What are some strategies and communication we can use so that we are not perceived as
defensive?
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And obviously in his work as a trial lawyer,
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being perceived as defensive could be the same as being perceived as being guilty.
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So in his line of work, it's particularly important.
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when we're, let's say I'm delivering feedback to you and you come off as defensive, I'm
gonna feel like you're not hearing me.
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And then he also gave some tips for how to work with others in a conversation to.
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decrease their likelihood of defensiveness.
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And I thought there were a bunch of really great reminders about fighting fair that we all
need to hear over and over and over again.
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know, things like don't say, well, you always forget to load the dishwasher or don't
deflect, you know, when you're confronted with a different accusation.
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like, yeah, well, you never make the bed.
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That's not a way to go, right?
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It's not a productive conversation.
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So you created that and made me laugh a little bit.
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Were there any things in the defensiveness chapter that you found particularly resonated
with you?
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Yeah, well, was one.
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ah Actually, this was in the Was it the difficult people chapter when you're talking about
defensiveness?
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I don't know.
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Was there an actual chapter called defense?
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There's assertive voice.
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It was difficult people.
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What?
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I think the actual chapter title was defensiveness.
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Well, I was caught.
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I was particularly captured by difficult people.
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So there was, there was a couple things in the difficult people chapter.
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Um, one, one was like, uh,
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Um.
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the justification apology.
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"I was just kidding." Or "I was just joking." I was just, that one gets me so that one
gets my goat and his comeback is the best.
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And your response "Well, then be funnier." or "Then find new material." or "I was just
messing around." "Well, I wasn't." you know, like sort of taking the, taking the, the legs
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out from underneath that.
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Well, I was just kidding.
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So was good.
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and we're almost at time here.
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Okay.
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I will, I will finish with this.
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And then if there's one final comment you want to make, can, uh, so in addition to the,
I'm using the phrase, "I'm confident that." - Incorporating that phrase.
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the, he made the distinction of another way to prevent people from getting defensive is to
say, "Well, I see things differently."
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or "The way I see this is..." And so you're signaling to the other person that you're
sharing your perspective.
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And I like that.
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And I've been using that already around the house.
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So um I think it's a good book.
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I do recommend people read it.
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Alessandra, any final thoughts before we wrap up?
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I feel like there are a number of phrases just like the ones you pulled out just there
that were particularly helpful to you that you're going to go out and try now.
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Again, these small little shifts.
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I imagine I do recommend this book.
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I have been recommending it to my clients for the last couple of weeks.
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I don't know if I mentioned earlier, but he's made a number, a whole library of little
short videos where he's capturing these pieces of advice.
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So sometimes I have clients who prefer audio or who prefer video, who just don't have the
time at the moment to read a whole book.
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Or it might be a nice way to just re-emphasize a small tactic that he gives, which is just
to send them, you know, a 30 or 45 minute video clip.
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I think the chapter on assertive voice, he has a compilation of a whole hour's worth of
short 30 second tips.
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So those are
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are fantastic.
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Again, for most readers like you or I, who have been deep in the literature of
communication and the research for years, trying to both improve personally and support
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our clients and their growth and their goals, you know, maybe 70 % of this is stuff we
know already or have come across previously, but it's always a good reminder.
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And there's this handful of new pieces, new tidbits of advice.
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that he brings and he was really fun to listen to.
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He has a very nice southern accent, by the way.
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So some audio books can be a little irritating, but this one was actually a lovely listen.
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And again, for those who prefer video, it seems like he's really out there promoting the
book and generating all sorts of content around it, depending on people's preferences.
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He's got a little bit of everything for folks.
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00:09:00,894 --> 00:09:05,255
the main platform YouTube or Instagram or what?
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uh I believe he has it all.
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I don't know exactly which one is his main one, but as with many books right now, I think
he has a whole website dedicated to this and to his personal brand.
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But I know that he is on TikTok and he does have a YouTube channel.
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So it's very easy to Google.
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know, if you put in Jefferson Fisher, assertive voice or confidence, you're going to get a
series of videos to watch that are summarizing some of these tips.
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Awesome.
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Thank you, Alessandra.
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Okay.
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So if people want to follow up with you after hearing this episode or watching this
episode, where can they find you?
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Yeah, well, I don't have the easiest name in the world to spell, uh but I will say given
that there are not that many Alessandra Zelinski's out there, I am fairly easy to find.
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I'm on LinkedIn and I have a website Alessandraselinski.com with a contact form, which is
probably the best way for folks to get in touch with me.
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Hmm.
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I don't know what happened.
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00:10:15,329 --> 00:10:17,593
We lost her for a second here.
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Maybe she'll come back.
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Alright, can we try that again?
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Okay.
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Sorry, it totally blipped on me and then was just a circle of death.
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00:10:54,167 --> 00:10:57,367
Okay, I will go back to that.
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You said, how can people get in touch with you?
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Oh, shoot.
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know.
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Are you there?
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Alessandra, are you there?
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Okay, you're back.
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00:11:16,073 --> 00:11:16,553
You're back.
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00:11:16,553 --> 00:11:17,460
You're back.
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00:11:21,837 --> 00:11:22,422
can hear you.
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00:11:22,422 --> 00:11:25,310
mean, I saw you there for a second.
139
00:11:32,150 --> 00:11:34,259
Okay, here I am, sorry.
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Okay.
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All right.
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00:11:39,417 --> 00:11:42,272
let me ask the question again.
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00:11:42,272 --> 00:11:43,402
How about that?
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00:11:44,283 --> 00:11:45,783
Okay.
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00:11:46,785 --> 00:11:51,207
And tell them like the link will be in the, you can tell them the link will be in the show
notes or I will.
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00:11:51,207 --> 00:11:54,710
uh And let's see here.
147
00:11:54,710 --> 00:11:57,431
So you can spell it out if you want to.
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00:11:57,431 --> 00:12:00,333
Is there an easier LinkedIn handle?
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00:12:01,270 --> 00:12:02,061
Nope.
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00:12:02,093 --> 00:12:03,494
Okay, all right.
151
00:12:05,207 --> 00:12:08,983
So Alessandra, yeah.
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00:12:10,247 --> 00:12:18,281
All right, Alessandra, if people want to connect with you after listening to or watching
this episode, where can they find you?
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00:12:18,314 --> 00:12:27,867
Yeah, well, I am on LinkedIn and I have a website under my name, alessandrazielinski.com,
which has a contact form, easiest way to get in touch with me.
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00:12:27,867 --> 00:12:36,730
Of course, my name is a little bit difficult to spell, which makes it complicated, but we
can put a link in the show notes.
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00:12:36,730 --> 00:12:44,961
The positive side of that is there aren't that many Alessandra Zielinski's out there, so
I'm pretty easy to find on Google.
156
00:12:44,961 --> 00:12:50,872
Yeah, you could probably Google, would it be a leadership coach or executive coach?
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00:12:50,872 --> 00:12:52,273
Alessandra.
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00:12:53,477 --> 00:12:54,357
Yeah.
159
00:12:55,420 --> 00:12:56,206
Okay.
160
00:12:56,206 --> 00:13:01,095
I did find one other person years ago with the same name, but just one, not like 15.
161
00:13:01,095 --> 00:13:03,881
So to be pretty straightforward.
162
00:13:03,881 --> 00:13:06,841
Alessandra with two S's.
163
00:13:07,181 --> 00:13:07,601
All right.
164
00:13:07,601 --> 00:13:10,301
And definitely the link will be in the show notes.
165
00:13:11,101 --> 00:13:14,221
Alessandra, thank you for joining me today.
166
00:13:14,221 --> 00:13:19,508
I really enjoyed our conversation and maybe we'll be back with another book in the future.
167
00:13:19,508 --> 00:13:22,635
Yeah, well you know I love talking about books, so I'm happy to.
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00:13:22,635 --> 00:13:23,637
Thanks for inviting me.
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00:13:23,637 --> 00:13:27,535
This was fun and I hope other folks will check the book out.
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The Next Conversation by Jefferson Fisher.
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Definitely recommend.
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Okay, cheers.