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David

[0:00]Well, today I brought Jim and Martha Brangenberg on the podcast. They are hosts of I Work For Him podcast. They've been doing that for over 12 years and have a few thousand episodes, and they've done radio before that. They have a passion to activate followers to live for Jesus and treat their workplace as their mission field. And they also have started the Tapestry Project, although I don't know how long that's been going, and I'll let them explain that to you later. So welcome, Jim and Martha, to the show. So thanks, David.

Jim

[0:30]Glad to be here.

David

[0:31]Yeah. You've interviewed lots of people, lots of business owners. And I guess, what is one favorite way that you have seen that these people honor God in their business that you've seen?

Jim

[0:44]I think the coolest part is when a business owner understands that they are not a business owner, that they're a steward and that the business was meant to do a lot more than just provide a paycheck, but that it was meant to impact a community, that it was meant to impact everybody connected, that the faith of the business owner was meant to not only impact the customers, but also the vendors and the employees and be a blessing to their family and also be a blessing to the community. When we see a business owner that gets that, that's the purpose. That's amazing.

David

[1:17]Okay. Very good. Martha, do you have one too?

Martha

[1:20]Well, I think very similarly, but also really in my heart, just when we see somebody living out, loving their neighbor and realizing that their neighbor at work is the person that they're rubbing shoulders with, that they are doing a project with, that they're serving in customer service or whatever they may be doing, that they look at it, that it's not just a nighttime and weekend neighbor that they live next door to. It's the neighbor in their workplace. And that's just powerful.

David

[1:49]Yep. And that's neat because most of us spend most of our time at work, you know, not even at home or asleep. Most of our time is at home. So, yeah, get that through our head. We can have great ministry. Very good. So take me a few minutes. How did you guys get into podcasting or the radio ministry? And you've been doing it for a long time. What started you on that road?

Jim

[2:13]You know it's just a god thing uh when we realized that we when we turned 40 all of a sudden somebody had brought to our attention that our work mattered to god we had spent the first 20 years of our marriage the first 20 years of our work lives frustrated with the fact that we have felt a call to ministry but also felt a call to run businesses and when we realized that that business we're running was really a call to ministry that that was our mission field that set us loose but it also enabled us to see that, wow, there's a lot of business owners struggling with this. And so God was churning something in us. And between 2006 and 2012, we prayed often that God would show us, we knew he was churning something that had to do with business. We asked that God would show us what he wants us to do by giving us a name for whatever it is we were going to do. And in 2012, he gave us, I work for him. And it was, and I said that night, I said, Lord, I get how I can mentor and disciple four or five Christian business guys, but how do you challenge thousands of people? Because this is like an epidemic in Christianity where Christian business people separate their faith from their work.

Jim

[3:22]And about 90 days later, I was speaking to a group of people in Tampa Bay right before we launched the Christian Chamber of Commerce in Tampa, about five ways to incorporate your faith in your workplace. And that was the day we launched I Work For Him on the radio because I sat down in the room next to the only lady I didn't know. And she goes, Jim, I have a Christian radio station, and I really think you should talk about that on the radio. So that was February of 2013, and we went on the air in April of 2013 and have been releasing at least once a week or multiple days a week ever since then. But it was driven by a passion to challenge every workplace believer, not just business people, to let their faith impact their daily workplace.

David

[4:05]That's neat. And that's what I've seen in life, too, is like God's the connection. I know one of my college students, not college students, college buddies, I saw him after and he was a youth pastor and we're talking and he goes, whenever I pray for God's will, I just say, God, be blatantly obvious because I'm really slow. Just be very obvious what God wants me to do. And yeah, God shows us what to do step by step.

Martha

[4:33]And day by day, sometimes hour by hour, we don't really know, but we walk that out in faith, trusting that we are being good stewards of the time and the talents that He's given us and the message, because that's really what this is about. It's about the message that we're learning on our journey and wanting to share with other people.

Jim

[4:52]It's about a paradigm shift, David, about shifting the mindset from work is work and church is church, but to the fact that our work is part of our worship. That's a big mind shift.

David

[5:06]Yep, you live for God all the time, not just on Sundays. For sure. Very good. So you guys still operate businesses as well as the podcast then?

Martha

[5:18]We actually do.

David

[5:20]Okay.

Martha

[5:21]I'm kind of laughing because, you know, it's funny on all of our journey, you know, when you said at the very beginning and you were asking, like, how did you get into this? I'm like, well, it's really God's fault. No, it's God's plan. We're just walking it out. But we are kind of finding ourselves back in the practitioner space of doing some stuff locally renovating buildings and starting businesses locally that help in the area flourishing. And so we are doing that. Again, not, we didn't really sit down and go, well, what's this 10-year plan? And what is this going to look like? But God just keeps opening doors, and we just keep walking through them. So for a long time, we were running a full-time business and doing five days a week, an hour a day of live radio, and that was not sustainable. So at a point, we had to say, okay, Lord, you're showing us that we can't do any of this well if we're doing all of it. So we had to surrender the consulting business that we had at the time and say, okay, we're all in. And went all in with I work for him and slowly have been moving back into some entrepreneurial stuff because it's in our blood. And there's no better way than to be a practitioner. When you're walking it out yourself, it's a whole lot easier to talk about it.

David

[6:39]Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Because I understand that. You start struggling with the same things. I know there's people at work when I started my new job. They tell me this is how things are because of X, Y, Z. I believe them. But after about six months, I see why. Oh, yeah, they're right. It's kind of the difference between knowing in your head and knowing by experience. And it's the same way with God, knowing him in your head or knowing him by experience as well. Yes. Very good.

Jim

[7:10]And to know when God's in your wife's head, that's a real paradigm shift. So it used to be like, okay, what's God really saying? And now when I hear Martha say, you know, I've been thinking, and I'm like, okay, but let's do it. Because God speaks to our wives, and they listen a lot better than we do. So that's just one of those things.

Martha

[7:30]That's a lot of pressure, Jim.

Jim

[7:32]I'm okay with the pressure being on you and not me. It's way better.

Martha

[7:34]Oh, thanks.

David

[7:36]Okay. You said it was your goal to activate followers to live for Jesus and making the workplace your mission field. How's that going? Like today versus five years ago? Can you see progress in the workplace?

Jim

[7:50]So that's a great question. Because we're a radio broadcast on a podcast, we don't get a lot of interaction with our listeners. We do get interaction by download numbers, things like that. But you can look at the whole movement. We're part of what's called the faith and work movement, which is a movement across the country and around the world that.

Jim

[8:09]It's all about unleashing workplace believers on their workplace mission field. So what we could see is that when we first went on the air 12 years ago, there were two podcasts talking about this and there were two radio shows. I don't know of any radio shows today about it, but there are now at least 200 podcasts talking about this. There are a thousand books talking about this. There are ministries. There's at least a thousand ministries. That was a tapestry project you hinted at at the opening of the show. God is moving and more and more people are getting it. The next generation, so the kids that are 20, 30, they want their work to matter the minute they get out of college. Whereas a lot of us were satisfied with getting a job and maybe when we retire, our work could matter. And so what we're seeing is there's a real paradigm shift in Christianity in the United States to recognizing that there should be purpose in everything that we do. But it's a big paradigm shift because for hundreds and hundreds, if not 1,700 years, the church has pretty much said, hey, the highest calling is pastor or missionary. The rest of you, you're there to support the pastors and the missionaries. And that's what we're overcoming. 1,700 years of pretty bad theology.

David

[9:29]Yeah, no, that's good. Neat. Very good. So in saying that, what are some practical ways for me or somebody else to be a missionary in our workplace?

Martha

[9:43]Well, it's really not that daunting. I think for a lot of people, it's just opening up their eyes to realize that if Jesus Christ really is the Lord of our lives, then he changed everything, all 24-7, not just Sunday morning and maybe Wednesday night or whatever framework you want to put that in. But He changed all of us. No matter what we are doing, we are ambassadors for Christ. And so over time, we actually created something called the I Work For Him Nation that actually gives five very simple steps to help people kind of on their own, put it into practice. And so, Jim, why don't you list them off?

Jim

[10:31]Well, it's like the guaranteed plan to turn every workplace into a mission field. It starts with this. Start praying for the people that you work alongside by name every day. We all interact with people every day. So pray for those people by name. Then start looking for ways to serve them over and above what your job requires you to do. David, it's so easy to do what our job requires us to do, but we go on over and above and to help other people. Then look for ways to befriend people.

David

[10:59]Or do it cheerfully because sometimes people do their job, but it's not with a good attitude. We're going to get to that.

Jim

[11:06]Hang on.

David

[11:06]Hang on. I'm sorry.

Jim

[11:07]We're going to get to that. We're going to get to that. Okay. You're going to pray for people by name every day. You're going to look for ways to serve people over and above what you're required to do. You're going to look for ways to befriend those people you're praying for outside of work because work relationships are one thing, David, but the other thing is having real relationships with people. Then you're going to look for ways to pray with people because we often, because we're working with the same people every day. We are interacting with them. We know what their regular demeanor is. So when they come in one day and they don't look so hot or they look like something's really bothering them, you can say, hey, what's going on? And they're like, I'm fine. And then you pull out the line from the Italian job and say, really? Freaked out, insecure, neurotic, and emotional? How are you really doing? And then you shut up and you listen. And while they're sharing with you, you realize, wow, they've actually shared something real with me. When they're done, you say, hey, thanks for sharing that. Can I pray with you about that right now? All of those things are how you turn your workplace into a mission field. It takes time because when you pray for people by name, it changes your heart, not theirs. But all of those things hinge on one thing. You need to be the best, the brightest example of a worker in your position. Everything you do needs to be defined by excellence. And those five things turns every workplace into a mission field because all of a sudden you'll start to see people the way God sees them. It's an amazing transformation. And it all happens in your mind. And then it starts to happen for real in front of you.

David

[12:37]Very good. Very good. So it's prayer, praying for them, finding ways to serve them, getting a relationship with them outside of work or building a good relationship. What's the fourth? them praying with them praying

Jim

[12:53]With them right

Martha

[12:54]And then be a no worker.

David

[12:56]How your work ethic you know how you work okay exactly

Jim

[13:00]Yeah simple stuff none of that's from jim and martha it

David

[13:03]Should be a normal thing i don't know it

Jim

[13:08]Should be but i'm telling you what david it's not

David

[13:11]Yeah yeah okay um so if when people start doing this that's that's really good by the way um i i've I got connected with your stuff and started, I made a list. Praying for everybody was too much to start off with. So I just, my department, just listed the people in my department to pray for in the course of the week. So we're just starting there. It's a good idea. What are some mistakes that people make that we should try to avoid when they try to go make the workplace through ministry?

Martha

[13:47]That's a great question. I think that some of just kind of some general ideas that come to mind is, you know, of course, people that just any one of those things, if they make a mistake, you know, if they...

Martha

[14:04]Act inappropriately, if they hurt somebody's feelings or whatever, that they take the time to go back to them and to apologize and to build those bridges back up and to mend that relationship aspect of things. Or if they fail to get something turned in on time, to mend that area of excellence. Whatever it is, we're all human. We're going to fail. We're going to make mistakes, going back and remedying it and then moving forward. I think the biggest mistake is getting stuck in thinking that I'm too far gone. I've burned too many bridges. I've been too crabby to too many people at work that I can't possibly, you know, get a better reputation, you know, for Jesus. And I think that's the biggest mistake is feeling that you're stuck and that you cannot change because God can work in our hearts and our lives every day if we surrender it to him. So start small. Just like you said, you know, of course, we're not asking you to pray by name for all 500 people in an organization unless God calls you to that. But start with a couple. Start with the ones that you have you're rubbing shoulders with on a daily basis that you really do have relationship with and pray for them and pray with them and befriend them. You know, all of the things we just said, and you'll see God show up in mighty ways.

Jim

[15:25]And I think, David, to add to that is one of the mistakes I see often is that people think that this is a Bible something moment, that this is all about evangelism. And it's so much more. People need to see Jesus in you before they need to hear about Jesus in you. And so your faith needs to be real so that you've got so people, when they hear you share the gospel, they know it's real because they've seen it in action. And so many people think that faith at work is all about sharing their faith at work, which that's part of it, but it's so much more. It's a recognition that that work came to you as a gift from God, that God gave us work as a gift in the garden before sin existed. And that when we work at work, it's not for the boss, it's for the Lord.

David

[16:14]Yep. One of the examples that comes to my mind, and he probably wouldn't hit number five very well because he always wasn't a good employee this way but he was so loved jesus that he wanted to tell everybody about jesus and he would he would stop his work just to if he's in a conversation the break time was over and he'll continue talking to you about jesus about this and that and just like if you would like work super hard and just talk to people on your breaks and not waste time all the time people might listen to you more but you know he never he never got that and that's That's one of the things I've seen of people. Like you said, if it's just about sharing your faith, granted, there are times when, yeah, you know to continue going, but he did it like all the time, every single day. And so people are just like, he's like, put them off.

Jim

[17:04]And that doesn't work. That's not how we're going to track the gospel.

David

[17:08]He tried, but yeah, there's a couple of interesting characters there. Tapestry Project. Tell me more about the Tapestry Project. It sounds really cool.

Martha

[17:18]Well, you know, have you ever looked at a beautiful tapestry that's hanging on the walls, whether it be in a museum or in somebody's home? The reality is the backside of it has a whole bunch of threads that are knotted and strung in different ways, and they're pretty messy. And it's amazing of what the front of the tapestry can look like in that situation. And that is what we have seen as the overarching, God kind of gave us a bird's eye view of all of the people that are really speaking into this, the faith and work conversation. And what we all see as looking very messy, and it's like, there's people in Seattle, there's people in, you know, all over the place, there's digital, there's virtual, there's in on in person, all these different things. God said, I am making a beautiful tapestry out of all of this. But the problem was those people don't know each other. And those people don't know that they're reproducing the wheel over and over and over again and using kingdom dollars to do so, right? So God just really laid it on our heart to say, okay, you've met all these people. You've learned about organizations that are speaking into this space. Start to organize it, not into an organization, but into a format where people can actually find other people in their state or in their area or in their expertise or in their industry that can help them.

Martha

[18:44]To befriend each other so that they could then have conversations. Because we believe in the kingdom, we are not there to compete, but to complete. And so in order to do that, you have to know who each other is. And so the Tapestry Project has really started at that level of organizing it in a format so that people can actually even just say, who's out there? Because we look, so often we're in silos and we're doing the work that God's called us to do. And I'm just going to stay focused and focus on this. But what you don't realize is that some friend in some other city has spent a year writing some curriculum that you could use if you knew that it was out there and available instead of spending your time rewriting something that you maybe don't feel called to do, but you think it's needed. And so that's really the beginning of the tapestry. And then we have high hopes for some future phases of it that just haven't happened yet. Jim, if you want to kind of share.

Jim

[19:42]Well, one of the goals is to then start connecting these people very intentionally, but to do an interview with every ministry leader, to have them share their mission and then be able to have somebody, Hey, I want to connect you to David Schmidt from Redeeming Business Today. Here's David's story. Listen to it before you call David or reach out to David via email. And that would be a great resource to get out there to help people network. Almost not like LinkedIn because LinkedIn doesn't have videos, but to be able to say, Hey, before you spend time for half an hour on a phone call with David, you should hear his heart.

Martha

[20:10]Like a virtual telephone book, almost.

Jim

[20:13]Well, yeah. But it gives you a chance to get to know these people. That just kind of takes some money to be able to do those kinds of things. And so far, the Lord hasn't said, move forward on it. So we're just continuing to disconnect people manually the way we have done it for the last 12 years. And it's amazing. The other day, I had an opportunity to connect a guy from Idaho, a guy from London, England, and a guy from Johannesburg, South Africa, all together on a phone call. And that was hilarious. All working on very similar things with just a slightly different permutation, but all about discipling workplace believers for six months. One was working on a phone app. One was working on a six-month written curriculum. And another guy was working on a digital curriculum. So just put them all together and say, hey, why don't you guys talk? Maybe there's some synergies here. So the Dapstack Project is really just that.

David

[21:07]Very good. I love it. I love it because I'm there, you know, I'm, I'm a lone person. I don't know anybody out there. And I've been amazed over the past year, how many people I've met, even not just through the podcast, but through other ways, all the Christian business people I didn't even know existed. You know, I was like, Ooh, look at that. Look at that. And like you said, you just, that, that net keeps going bigger and bigger as far as people I know and growing. And it's, it's been very neat, very neat journey. Um, there are started earlier, but I did it. So here we, here we are, here we are.

Jim

[21:40]We didn't get started till we were 40 and really we didn't get started till 47 really being preachers on this stuff. Um, but it's, God's done amazing things and he's moving. You know, I tell people there's just one central coordinating figure in the entire faith and work movement. They're like, really, who is it? I want to meet him. I'm like, it's the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is doing this all over the place. And that's important to understand that this is a move of God.

David

[22:07]Very good. So how can my audience find out more about you? If you want to find out more about the tapestry project or the I work for my nation and all that stuff, how can they get a hold of you?

Martha

[22:18]All of that is on our website, Iworkforhim.com. That's Iwork4him.com. And there you can join the nation. It doesn't cost anything, but all those steps are out there for you to print out, be reminded of, commit yourself to. The Tapestry Project is out there. If you want to get more detailed information on the tapestry or a document that is more sortable, you can email Jim, all of that is there. We have the Awakened Podcast Network out there for podcast platform for, that's our collection, our curated collection of podcasts all across the country that are speaking into this space. Lots of resources, including in subscribing to our podcast to listen to those. So I work for him.com.

Jim

[23:00]And it's not just the I work for him podcast is the I retire for him podcast. The she works for him podcast. Those are ones and the daily I work for him power thought. All of those are stuff that we produce on a regular basis.

David

[23:13]Very good. Very good. And I will put all that stuff in the show notes so people can get easier. So one more thing. What is one challenge? I'm an engineer. I'm a coach. I'd like to narrow things down. What is one challenge you would like to leave with my listeners today?

Martha

[23:30]For me, I would say the very first thing would be to just start tomorrow, getting out of bed and praying for those that you're going to work with tomorrow and just ask God to, reveal to you how you can love them in a new and different way.

Jim

[23:47]And my thought is this, you've been lied to, you've been told all your life that you're a second tier citizen in the kingdom because you're not a preacher, you're not a pastor and you're not a missionary. That was a lie. God desperately needs you where you are. Some people get called to the pulpit, some people get called in the mission field, but the majority of us get called to a cubicle somewhere. Your co-workers need to meet jesus and you may be the only jesus they ever meet you have a powerful call on your life don't miss it

David

[24:21]Love it very good well jim martha thank you so much for your time encouragement today and next steps for y'all listening is to check out our show notes there will be links in the sites and contact information for i work for him to get a hold of jim and martha and i encourage you to sign up for the newsletter because that's a great way to communicate Not to miss out on future episodes or opportunities. Friends, thank you. That's all for now. I trust you've been inspired to redeem your business. Redeem your time. Buy it back. Walk worthy of God's great name.