[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence-based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information myths and those classic old wives tales.

[00:00:27] I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is the Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 186 of The Science of Motherhood. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. Thank you so much for joining me today. Today's episode is proudly brought to you by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village, providing evidence-based continuity of care to bridge the maternal support gap when new mothers need it most.

[00:00:54] If you are pregnant. If you have got a little one on the way or you've just given birth and you're finding it a little bit challenging, maybe you might consider having a doula. If you want a birth cheerleader, someone in that birth space who is going to be your rock and be able to cheer you to that finish line, or you want someone to be able to hold your beautiful baby who you trust.

[00:01:26] Who can make gorgeous nourishing meals for you when all you're doing is eating toast and Tim Tams. Yes, that was me. Maybe you wanna consider having a doula. We have got doulas across the east coast of Australia, Melbourne, Hobart, Sydney, Geelong, Newcastle, Brisbane, and Gold Coast. So you know, if that sounds like your thing, head over to our website, I fill your cup.com, click on offerings, and then you can see pregnancy and birth doula or postpartum doula offerings there, and send us a message if you've got any questions. You can contact us via the website or drop into our dms on Instagram at fill your Cup underscore.

[00:02:17] Alright, let's dive into today's episode. We have got the such, oh my gosh, this woman is so funny. Victoria or Vic Vanstone on her bio, on her website. It's so cool. She's like, I live on the Sunshine Coast in Australia with three uncontrollable brats, a scruffy dog and a very patient husband.

[00:02:42] You'll hear from her accent, she's originally from the UK. She's been writing about motherhood and what she calls her zigzaggy journey to sobriety for two years. She's also the host of the podcast, Sober Awkward, which is pretty cool. That's come out of her sobriety journey. But today we are gonna be talking about her brand new book called Mumming.

[00:03:10] Which you will hear in the podcast interview is absolutely hilarious. It's essentially about her journey for a year, trying to be a better mum, and as she says, just failing all the time with it. It is. I I rec like, like, it's like it's a longitudinal journey. The, the book is made up of, of kind of short stories and pivotal moments, and it is so funny.

[00:03:38] I was laughing out loud the entire time I was reading it. It is just a breath of fresh air around, you know, the expectations of motherhood. In contrast, the reality. She weaves in huge like rage moments. She goes to rage walks every day, which is a fantastic, I love it. She has the most incredible mum hacks, which uh, yeah, you can note them down as you read them.

[00:04:05] Spectacular, but it's just so authentic and I think it pretty much sums up a lot of our lives and it's just so nice to have someone go yeah. These are all the flaws and we are just living through it and we are just trying to do the best that we can. So if that sounds up your alley and you want a really good laugh, head over to our show notes.

[00:04:32] There'll be all the details to buy Vic's new book, mummy. Uh, so without further ado, he is Vic Vanstone. Hello and welcome to the podcast, Vic Vanstone. How are you?

[00:04:46] Victoria Vanstone: I'm fine. How's it going? Thanks for having me on.

[00:04:48] Dr Renee White: I'm bloody freezing at the moment, to be honest. I'm here in Hobart and like it's ice, ice baby.

[00:04:55] Victoria Vanstone: I won't show you out of my window, but it's actually a beautiful sunny day here on the, on the Sunshine Coast. Yeah, on the east coast, but it has been raining for weeks and weeks and weeks. But okay. Yeah, we've got a lovely weather today.

[00:05:06] Dr Renee White: Well, you can take the rain. Like that's the thing about Hobart, people say to me, 'cause I'm originally from Melbourne, they're like, oh my god, how's it look like living in Tasmania?

[00:05:14] I'm like, honestly, it's bloody beautiful. Winter is stunning. I will take the cold and just no rain at all 'cause that's what Melbourne is. I cannot stand the rain like it drives the batty. The rain. Yeah. I don't like it.

[00:05:27] Victoria Vanstone: Yeah, especially, especially, I've got a white couch and a dog. Oh, stupid. That is a major fail, and if anyone's listening, don't ever, ever buy what you think is a really nice couch and spend, God knows how much money on it 'cause couches are ridiculously expensive nowadays. What's so my first, I dunno, my first couch was a hundred quid. Like I don't understand why couches of thousands of dollars now. So I thought, oh well I'm gonna spend the money. I'm gonna get a nice one, I'm gonna get a white one. So it looks all boho and nice in my lounge and now it's just got.

[00:05:56] Like muddy dog prints over it.

[00:05:57] Dr Renee White: It's grey now.

[00:05:58] Victoria Vanstone: Yeah. And it makes me feel really stressed every day. I'm, oh my fucking dog. Get it off the couch.

[00:06:03] Dr Renee White: Oh my God. Our couch is like the bane of our existence. Like we, I don't know what the fuck was going through my mind, but we had this gorgeous like black leather couch and during COVID lockdown, in Melbourne, I think I went like, we all went a little bit, uh, you know, glitchy and I had thought, I had this idea in my head that I was like, if we get a new couch, it will make us feel so much better. And in between like one of those, you know, let out of your house moments. We dashed to a furniture store.

[00:06:38] I think we sat on like five different couches and we're like, yes, that's the one. That's the one we're gonna get. Yeah. 12 weeks later it arrived. Can I just tell you, Vic.

[00:06:46] Victoria Vanstone: Oh God. What?

[00:06:46] Dr Renee White: It was not, it was not the couch that we sat on in the showroom. It has been giving us back pain, hip pain. We could hardly actually sit on it these days, and I'm just like, we're stuck with it and because we've spent so much bloody money on it as well, I'm just like.

[00:07:05] Victoria Vanstone: We could be talking about children right here. Now this is exactly the same thing, isn't it? It's, it's like, it's a huge thing to go into. You spend loads of money on it, it gives you back pain, it gives you hip pain, it fine. Like you spend up like wiping the surfaces of it all the time and making sure it's okay. Yeah. It's basically like having, buying a new child.

[00:07:24] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that is, I loved your segue. I, I love, this is what I love. I love your segue for all those playing at home. I'm gonna put it up here. Uh. It's called Mumming Vic's new book, which can I just tell you, I was crying with tears when I was reading this and like, I, I rarely say this, absolutely laughing out loud through the whole bloody book.

[00:07:51] There was so many pearlers. I was just like, this woman is amazing. I can't wait to actually meet her on the podcast.

[00:07:58] Victoria Vanstone: And of course I was late because it was, I was actually sticking to the theme. Yeah. Of just being complete chaos.

[00:08:05] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. Which, for all those playing at home, the title, the official title is Mumming, A Year of Trying and Failing to Be a Better Parent.

[00:08:14] But there are some spectacular stories in here, but before we dive into the book and we've already touched on the fact that, you know, reality and expectations are probably two very different realms of our world. I wanna talk to you about be like free motherhood, like you are not even a mom, but like, 'cause I was a bit of a space cadet as to what motherhood was going to be like. Mm-hmm. What were your thoughts about what motherhood was going to be like? What were your expectations versus what actually unfolded for you?

[00:08:52] Victoria Vanstone: Oh, well, I was a complete party animal for 25 years. Mm-hmm. So I. I just thought, well, I'll get to the point where I'm supposed to have children, and that's what I'll do.

[00:09:02] I always wanted children. Yeah. I think mostly because I wanted people to be able to look after me when I'm old, but I, I think I wanted them, but I presumed stupidly that you popped them out and then molded them into what you wanted them to be like how you expected them.

[00:09:19] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:09:19] Victoria Vanstone: That they'd be sort of perfect mini versions of me, but without all the recreational drug use and promiscuity.

[00:09:26] Dr Renee White: That old chestnut

[00:09:29] Victoria Vanstone: should throw that in there. So like I was hoping that I would hide all the terrible things that I did, but my children would learn about the new me, who was obviously sober by the time my children started growing up. And I just thought, well, they're gonna be even more amazing than me because they'll never have alcohol in their lives and they're just gonna be these two amazing people, which of course they are.

[00:09:48] But it is a bit of a shock when you have them and you realise that. Actually, they have their own characters and their own personalities and they answer back quite a lot. So it was very, very different. And in fact, that transition between being a party animal and a mum, I found very, very hard because of course I'd been very independent and thought I'd just, you know, stick a baby in a sling and go off traveling.

[00:10:11] And I found that I'd gone from being the life and. Soul of the party to being stuck in a flat, in manly, on my own with beige wallpaper, wondering what the hell to do, and feeling very responsible for these young lives that have been put into my care. So actually I found the whole thing really overwhelming.

[00:10:27] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. Did you, did you go through a stage of like, a bit of anger and resentment? 'cause like, I, I, I went through like a, a bit of a rollercoaster of emotions, very similar to you. Super independent. Probably not the recreational drugs and promiscuity. Um,

[00:10:44] Victoria Vanstone: but that was before I got married though. The recreational? Yeah, I was in my twenties. Yeah.

[00:10:51] Dr Renee White: But like it, I got really cross with the world. Like I was just like a big f you and why didn't anyone tell me it was going to be like this? Like, like, do you think that there's. I mean, we always say this, I think on this podcast in particular, it's just kind of like, why do we not talk about this more around the difficulties and struggles of motherhood?

[00:11:14] Yeah. Why, like, did you go through a stage where you, like, did you have friends who had kids and you were like, I'm sorry. Uh, you are a shit friend because you didn't tell me how bad this was gonna be.

[00:11:26] Victoria Vanstone: Well, it's a like with the birth stories as well. I remember after having like quite a complicated C-section with my first child, I remember I kind of felt like, well, I'm not gonna tell anyone about this because you know, I don't wanna put anyone off.

[00:11:38] That's kind of what it feels like. Yeah. Isn't it? You don't wanna put people off. And of course, like the love for our children and the joy outweighs all of the negativity. But I totally agree with you. That there isn't enough said about those specifically, those first few months when you are kind of thrown into this role.

[00:11:55] Mm-hmm. And you go from having one identity to perhaps handing your own identity over to this little bundle of love in your arms. And that can feel really confronting. And that's definitely how I felt. It's like every part of me was kind of shed away and all I was was kind of this feeding machine that had to take care of this child and it felt like I didn't know who I was anymore.

[00:12:17] Mm-hmm. And of course that led me to kind of going out the weekends, which I'm really not proud of, but it's something a lot of mums do. And it led me to leaning on that kind of end of the day wine to go, okay, let me go back to who I once was, that you know, that person, last man standing on the dance floor party animal. Mm-hmm. So it led me into some really bad habits, actually, that exact feeling that you're talking about, because I felt that mummy wine culture, I was a perfect candidate for it because all I wanted to do was go, okay, I've been a perfect mum all week, now I'm gonna go out the weekends and just be who I truly am.

[00:12:50] Which of course was an over drinker. Mm-hmm. So that didn't work either. So I eventually had to find other ways to succumbing to the fact that I was now a mum. And who was that identity?

[00:13:01] Dr Renee White: Okay. I love that. Can we dive into that a bit more? Because it's obviously the premise of this book about understanding like you have this pivotal moment, and I'd love for you to kind of talk the listeners through that moment where you kind of get sight of what it was.

[00:13:18] My understanding was that you were kind of like halfway to your car, and then someone's just like, are you coming to this meeting? And you're like, oh, Jesus Christ. Okay. Yeah, sure. All right. Talk us through that moment and then maybe that light bulb of, oh, okay. Hold on a minute like maybe, maybe this is the moment where I can be quote unquote, the perfect mum.

[00:13:42] Victoria Vanstone: Well, I think I'd got sober and I'd been sober quite a few years, and so that became a new identity for me. But then I realised but there were other things in my life that needed to evolve a little bit of work as well, not just my drinking habits. And I, particularly that morning actually, I have developed a shouting habit, which I wasn't proud of.

[00:14:05] And I, I, I knew that it didn't make me feel good and I remember when my mum used to shower me when I was little, I used to just think, oh, I never used to think. I must change my own behavior. I just did think, oh, my mum's shouting at me and I don't like it. Mm-hmm. It never, it never made me think, oh, I must be a good girl, or I must do better.

[00:14:22] It just made me think, well, my mum doesn't like me, and it was a really horrible feeling and I remember before I had children. Thinking, well, I don't ever wanna do that. That's not who I want to be as a mum. I want to be this like, you know, bliss ball excreting Earth mother, which I presume

[00:14:37] Dr Renee White: how'd that work out for you?

[00:14:38] Victoria Vanstone: Within me, no, it didn't work out. And that morning was like the preschool shit show. Mm-hmm. I was running around like a maniac, looking for shoes, getting teeth brushed, and all the normal things that every bum does every morning. And I remember my voice. Getting so shouty that it hurt. Mm-hmm. You know when you sort of, yeah.

[00:14:56] That ogre comes out and your voice turns into something you didn't even know existed on this planet. And I'd been into school. My kid was wearing diving shoes. I was in a right old state, and a mum had seen me. It was after my son had said to me, mom, you are fired. And walked into, no, was

[00:15:15] Dr Renee White: so good, Thomas just like, oh my God.

[00:15:18] Victoria Vanstone: It's good because it's true. Do you know what I mean? It's. Like none of this stuff unfortunately is made up. And I remember instead of feeling like, oh my gosh, I'm so sad 'cause I've left my beautiful son at school. I walked out of the drive, you know, into the school car park going, oh, thank fuck. He's gone like

[00:15:34] Dr Renee White: I'm myself. Just leave tyre marks in the car park.

[00:15:38] Victoria Vanstone: Yeah. And I felt terrible. I do. Feel guilty a lot for, you know, the way that I have parented sometimes. But you know, that's something that runs alongside motherhood is all of this guilt and somebody ran over to me in the school park, car park. And handed me a flyer that was just some free parenting classes at my school.

[00:15:58] And, uh, she was like, I think you should come, I think you should see what happens. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna come. I knew it was the moment where I thought, okay, I've done this before with my drinking. I've reached out for help and I've changed and this is the time I need to say yes and do this with my parenting too.

[00:16:13] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and what was the process? Walk us through that because like. Was it a, like a structured thing? Like, and how did you feel through it as well? Like, I don't know, like I've never, I'm trying to think if I've actually been to a, I haven't been to like a specific parenting kind of class or anything. I think I've just spoken to a lot of people like this in a podcast and dived in Yeah, with stuff, but like how does it work?

[00:16:40] Victoria Vanstone: Well, it was just actually just other mums and dads just like me, who were having like various problems and shouting too much, and just feeling like they'd kind of lost control.

[00:16:50] That's what it, that's what it felt like for me too like I didn't know. I knew that I had a lot of bad habits with my parenting. Mm-hmm. Like stuffing kinder eggs into their faces while I'm doing the, you know, school shop. The usual yeah parenting short-term hacks that we use to get through the day. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of those.

[00:17:09] Like sometimes it's just you get to a, whatever works stage of parenting. Mm-hmm. You just kind of have to get through the day and things like that can be helpful. But I just knew that something needed to change and when I went there. It was more about learning my values. Yeah. And learning who I wanted to be as a mum, and alongside that, bringing in some strategies that I could use on a day-to-day basis that would help me understand my values and use them in a way that was gonna be productive in my house hold.

[00:17:38] So that was the counting method of 3, 2, 1, and then a consequence. So just having a bit of structure mm-hmm to my parenting rather than grasping at things that worked in the short term. Yeah, it was like putting a little plaster over everything really. Yeah. And then not actually dealing with the problem, dealing with it on a momentary basis and trying to get through the day, whereas in fact.

[00:17:58] The overall umbrella topic was me knowing my values, taking a moment and trying to do something that would instill ano a better value in me and a better value in my children.

[00:18:11] Dr Renee White: Yeah, and I'm curious to know, like were there discussions with the kids at the time of like, okay, shit's about to change and I need you to get on board with this because this is like we're.

[00:18:26] Like this is clearly not working for anyone in the family. What if you're happy to share like that look like with your kids? And also maybe for reference to the listeners, like how old were your kids at the time and how did you structure those chats?

[00:18:42] Victoria Vanstone: Well, the book is based on a year of me trying and failing to be a better parent, which was kind of from the beginning of 2024 to the end of 2024.

[00:18:50] So it was last year. My kids were eight, five, and 12 at the time of writing the book. Mm-hmm. And yeah, it was kind of structured in a way that. I wanted to get better. So I spent a year, I decided after that parenting class mm-hmm. I wanted just to spend a year of trying many things to try and get better at it.

[00:19:12] And I did sit down with the children at that time and say, right, I've learned this new technique, guys. This is something that we're gonna try and instill, not only to, I don't wanna shout at you. Mm. That is not what I want and I know you don't like it. And I realised it was causing them to shout back. I was teaching them bad values and bad habits.

[00:19:28] Yeah. So I was like, I need to break this habit. So we started with that, but of course, you know the book is about trying and failing. Yeah. And I'm very honest about the fact that all of the things that I put into place as parents, as a parent don't always work. And so it was a process of things sometimes going wrong.

[00:19:46] Occasionally something would work and you know, having a values stickers on the fridge alongside rewards charts and all of these different tools that I tried to implement that worked at different stages and didn't work at others when everything fell apart. Mm-hmm. Because that happens too, like in the book, there's a point where I have to say, right, this isn't working, so I'm gonna do this rewards chart.

[00:20:08] Everyone's gonna get a $5 at the end of the week if they do this, this, this, and this. And of course, day one is perfect, but day three there's stickers on all the light switches and there's, you know, pocket money has been sent to Santa's little elves and things like that. So things I tried, you know? Yeah.

[00:20:26] And I think that is my message with everything that I do, perhaps with sobriety and with parenting, is that I never, ever give up.

[00:20:35] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah. And also what I wanna talk about, a specific moment in the book, which just had me curling over with laughter and I just thought, well, played Vic, well played

[00:20:51] Victoria Vanstone: God, what the, I'm not sure I wanna know which guy it was.

[00:20:54] Dr Renee White: It was one of your mum hacks.

[00:20:56] Victoria Vanstone: Yes. Camping. It is good, isn't it?

[00:21:00] Dr Renee White: Oh my God, that was, yeah spectacular absolutely spectacular.

[00:21:05] Victoria Vanstone: Thank you very much.

[00:21:06] Dr Renee White: Please tell the listeners what, what you did. What did you do, Vic? Tell us all.

[00:21:12] Victoria Vanstone: This is not something I did. This is something I do on a regular basis now. Yes, and good for you.

[00:21:16] Dr Renee White: And I think more mums need to do stuff like this.

[00:21:19] Victoria Vanstone: Okay. I'm British. I've got to an age. I'm nearly 50. I like a thousand thread sheets when I go away. I think that's more the point than anything else. Yeah. So basically, I hate camping, right? Yeah. And I live in Australia, everyone goes bloody camping all the time.

[00:21:36] And I'm like, oh God, please, I please don't. This is one thing that I'm gonna be doning.

[00:21:41] Dr Renee White: Don't make me do it.

[00:21:42] Victoria Vanstone: My parenting too far. But I knew, I know that my kids love camping, okay? Because they love being there amongst all these horrible animals and dusty feet and nearly walking on hot coals and all the things that camping entails.

[00:21:56] So I gave in, uh, there was a weak moment I think in the book where I felt like I was winning. And when I'm winning I feel like, okay, I can do this and I can do everything that my kids want me to do. Yeah. And I give in to going camping and of course we pack the car up with for five hours, then unpack it again for five hours and have various arguments over putting up tents and blowing up mattresses that shoot me up in the air and all the, I even hate the sound of zips.

[00:22:20] I think I remember saying it like, I hate everything about, I hate the spoons and forks that are joined together. I find it all really creepy and gross. I just hate shouting car every two seconds for like the rest of my life.

[00:22:32] When I'm on a horrible dusty cam tonight, I hate everything about it. So what I do is. When the children have gone to bed, like I tuck them into their little sleeping bags, I do their zips up and I read them a story and give them a little peck on their head, and then I steal my, the car keys out of my husband's pocket, and we only camp within a five mile radius of my house.

[00:22:54] Yep. Because I then take the car quietly at five kilometers per hour outta the car park, and I go home and I sleep in my bed in my nice sheets, and I imagine my children in the glorified plastic bag, sleeping in the cold and I watch Netflix and have a bath. Yes. And then I come back to the campsite before they wake up, so they don't even know I'm gone.

[00:23:19] Dr Renee White: That is spectacular

[00:23:20] Victoria Vanstone: parent number one that I, I hand over to all the thank you camping, hating mothers in the world out there.

[00:23:27] Dr Renee White: I love this. It does, it does require a camping loving. Partner though, doesn't it?

[00:23:34] Victoria Vanstone: Yes, it certainly does, but actually I'm kind of beyond caring about that as well. He just knows he has to take care of the children. He can't leave either, so that's part of the deal.

[00:23:43] Dr Renee White: I love that so much. I, I want, I wanna know, what are your other mum hacks? What are the other things like as your coping mechanisms? Like if you have having a shit day and you're just like far out brussel sprout. What's your go-to like, I can imagine a lot of people sitting here listening, going, oh man, I'm at the end of my tether. Like, what are some of the things that really work for you now?

[00:24:07] Victoria Vanstone: Well, definitely my daily rage walk. Like, that is my favorite thing to do. Yeah, of course, somebody has to be there to look after the children again, but as soon as my husband's home, I'm like, right, I'm getting my trainers on, and I go and march it out on the beach.

[00:24:20] I usually listen to some horrible crime documentary podcast and just stride it out with the wind in my hair and, and get all of those feelings of anxiety that have built up throughout the day, because I don't cope with parenting all the time. Yeah. Like I'm quite rubbish sometimes, and I feel that feeling of like, oh my God, I'm just getting really stressed out right now, and I, I need a break.

[00:24:43] Mm-hmm. And whether that's five minutes or an hour or a trip to Italy, which I do do in the book, which I highly recommend. Mm. Sounds very privileged. But yeah, save up and do that if you can. Just a break for me, just that five minutes of going back to who I am, where that space between me and my children gets a little bit further apart where I can just breathe and just forget about sort of mundanity of motherhood for a moment and just stride along the beach with my dog, Sandy, who's an excellent companion coz she's the only person in my household who doesn't answer back.

[00:25:17] So it's just, um, it's just a moment of me really. That's what I like doing and whether that's going for a massage, going to get pampered, you know, whatever you wanna do, that just gives you that moment of me. Yeah. I was on a podcast the other day and the lady said to me, oh, you do realise all the advice you'd give is to get away from your children as much as possible. I'm like just, that's probably not the best.

[00:25:43] So yeah, just a few moments to yourself. And even sometimes for me, that can be turning around and putting the kettle on and just standing there while it boils. Yeah. You know, because I've got three kids, they're all very demanding and I love them dearly, but sometimes I just need a moment of me.

[00:26:00] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. And like to whoever that interviewer was point. It's like, but what do you expect? Like, like we actually are human beings. We require solitary like time. Mm-hmm. Me time. So we are better people when we are with our children. Like I don't think that that's an unrealistic expectation. Right? Yeah. And also.

[00:26:26] You know, I'm a firm believer that we just weren't meant to mother by ourselves. Like there's nothing where it's like I'm currently day Jesus, I don't know, like 10 of solo parenting at the moment. My husband's off overseas for work and stuff and all of my close girlfriends know, because this is a regular thing for us.

[00:26:50] It's just like, I just call on the, the, the village. It's kind of like, right, who's co-parenting with me this week? Or like, they always check in, how you going? Do you wanna meet for lunch or something? And it's quick stuff, you know? It doesn't need to be this big you know hoo-ha thing. But all it takes is just, Hey, do you wanna meet for lunch today?

[00:27:10] You have a chat with your girlfriend? Go for a rage walk whatever like I did this morning. Go for a run with a mate down at the beach, just like Jesus. You need to get away from your kids sometime.

[00:27:23] Victoria Vanstone: Yeah, I think it's really good, really smart advice there because I often, sometimes if I hear a mom say that she's not joining the, the mothering group or the mm-hmm.

[00:27:32] You know, after they've had their first child, I'm like, you've really gotta do that. Mm-hmm. Like, you can't, so what if I don't like them or what, you know, I don't really feel like I need any new friends. I'm like, you need to join the mother group after you've had a baby. Like that is so important and they become those people. Yeah. The people who are lending you the wipes, the shoulders to cry on, they are gonna be your support. And it does worry me when I hear sometimes that mums, oh, you know, I, I just, I'm quite happy on my own and like I'm just gonna bumble around with a baby.

[00:27:59] But those groups throughout my parenting have been the backbone, the support of everything that I do. They're kind of the scaffolding, aren't they around you? These people who just get it and you're like, I'm having a shit day. I don't know how to wrap a baby. I don't know whether I'm feeding the right food. 'cause we dunno a lot as single people in our brains.

[00:28:20] There's only so much information that we can take on. And I found with all the parenting books, specifically when I read them after having my first child, that I actually couldn't achieve a lot of the things that were written inside them. I kind of that's why I sort of wrote this book was 'cause I wanted to write a book for the struggling mums who couldn't achieve the perfect sleep routine and the perfect play routine.

[00:28:41] I just ended up feeling really, really guilty and like I could never achieve anything when I read those books. So it's kind of like the anti expert I'm trying to be and go, look, we can try all of these techniques and we can read a billion books. But the camaraderie of Mo other mums and that feeling of support that you get from people that are going through the same thing is so essentially motherhood, I think.

[00:29:04] Dr Renee White: Oh, absolutely. Like, and you know where I i, oh, oh. There's, there's actually research that demonstrates that we need to share experiences in order to thrive in motherhood, not just survive. And so we actually need that conversation happening and that observation and learning around of our community of like, oh, okay, that might be a different way of doing something.

[00:29:31] Like I, I still remember. My mother's group and I was like so new to the suburb that we moved into. We moved there when I was like 33 weeks pregnant. So I didn't know god damn soul and I remember meeting these women and on first blush, like, I was just like, I don't know if I'm gonna gel with these people.

[00:29:49] Like, I'm just like, what the heck is happening here? But then I remember there was like, you know, you know when you go to those mothers groups and they're run by, you know, amazing nurses, but a lot of it is very child centric and, you know, making sure that we're, you know, we're not gonna kill our kid. Okay, we get it.

[00:30:07] That's, but like, what about us? And I remember this girl like,

[00:30:10] Victoria Vanstone: yes, true

[00:30:11] Dr Renee White: opposite we are in this, you know, we're in the circle, there's biscuits in the middle, and we're blah, blah, blah. And like we're like, you know, holding our babies. And I remember this girl just like put her hand up and she was like, I'm really sorry, but can we talk about the fact that this is actually just really shit and we miss our old lives? And I was like, oh my God, I have now my fault.

[00:30:34] Victoria Vanstone: So good.

[00:30:35] Dr Renee White: I just eyeball her. I. Yes. Yes. And I was just like, oh my God. Thank God. Someone has verbalized exactly what has been running through my head, which is I have been career woman for like a million years, and then I'm like, holy shit, there's like a barnacle baby that will not let me put her down.

[00:30:54] Yeah. And now I've got like like, what, what, what is this life that I'm supposed to be living? I'm not happy with this at all, and I did not sign up for this shit at, you know, like I just, yeah. Expectations and reality just did not come together.

[00:31:09] Victoria Vanstone: I think society has an unrealistic expectation of mothers. I think the constant judgment from other parents, the mental load and the pressure to kind of do it right is kind of like it sits on us all the time.

[00:31:23] It's like there, buzzing alongside us and it's difficult to get away from, especially with social media now and you know, trad wife tradition, you know, traditional wife movements and things like that where there's certain expectations. And I am that mum for like 10% of the time. You know, I can make perfect chocolate chip cookies.

[00:31:42] I can wear an apron occasionally. It looks a bit weird, but I can be that person sometimes. But also, let's not just talk about that. Let's talk about what's hard. And normalize having good days and bad days. Mm-hmm. That's simply what I'm trying to do is say, look, it's okay. This is actually normal to feel like this and have these baby blues and to feel a bit shit sometimes.

[00:32:03] I must tell the story here very quickly. I don't wanna give too much away about the book, but there's a moment in my parenting journey, I don't know whether you were gonna touch on it, but like when I'm crying in the car park at school. And one of my besties comes up to me. She sees me in the car, she doesn't say anything.

[00:32:21] She knocks on the window. I wind it down and she just hands me a paper bag and I'm like, oh my God, what is this? She doesn't say anything. She walks away and I look inside and all that's in there is a bar of chocolate like lint sea salt my favorite. Yes. And a note on a yellow, I've still got it here on my fridge.

[00:32:41] Mm-hmm. A yellow sticky note that says on it sometimes parenting is fucked. That was it. That was all it said, and I was like, oh my God, this is all I want to hear right now. I don't want somebody to tell me that I'm doing it right or doing it wrong, or what I should do, or what I should try, because our mummy instinct is pretty good, quite honestly.

[00:33:02] Yeah. Like we are quite natural mothers without really realising it. All she did was say it's fucked. Mm-hmm. And that's okay. And what you are feeling is extremely normal. And that is literally the best parenting advice I have ever had in my whole life. Was my mate handing me that note yeah. Because I knew in that moment.

[00:33:22] That it wasn't just me. Yep. And that there were other women, other mums in car parks, outside school, gates all over Australia crying at the same time as me. Mm-hmm. And that's that same feeling you get in mother's groups. It's the same person who's lending you the wipes and helping you out and giving your kids the lift of school when you can't. It's that same feeling of, look, the, the, the mothering ship is sinking, but at least we're all going down together some days. Yeah.

[00:33:46] Dr Renee White: Yep. We're singing along together. Yeah.

[00:33:48] Victoria Vanstone: We're like the Titanic band, aren't we? That's

[00:33:52] Dr Renee White: absolutely, absolutely. And uh, I dunno about you, but like look, I have a, uh, we are very privileged in the sense that I have a quite a flexible work schedule and they are conscious decisions that we've made as a family.

[00:34:05] Like we are just like we. I am the default parent and, but you know, my workplace has a bit of flexibility around it. And so there was an opportunity that arose at the start of the year where one of the other parents had said, oh, you'll look, you know, my daughter's really interested in like singing and like there's lots of singing in our house and I'm thinking about getting like inquiring about choir and I was like, oh yeah, that sounds good.

[00:34:31] And there was three girls in particular, my daughter and two other girls, and there was there, we found a choir, but it starts at four 30 and that is not conducive to a regular work schedule. Mm-hmm. Yep and so I put my hand up and I said, look, I'm happy to take them. I'll pick them up from school, I'll take them.

[00:34:58] And you know, everyone meet at our house afterwards for the drop off. And just the sheer like it was, I don't know, like it was almost like an overzealous of like, oh my God, are you serious? Would you actually do that? And I was like, yeah, I would like, I could see that our girls are really passionate about this and this is something that they would all love to do together and we can make this happen.

[00:35:25] And I just. It kind of makes me really sad about the responses from other parents when they're just like, oh my God. Like, would you honestly like put your, like put your, I'm doing air quotes put yourself out. Yeah. To do that and I just think far out, like as I said, I am in a privileged situation. It is a flexible work environment, but even if it's weekend shit, like, you know, like.

[00:35:53] Extend out and be like, Hey, do you, if you see another parent who's suffering, like send that chocolate bar with the Post-It note that says Parenting is fucked, or I'm coming over, I'm gonna come pick up your kids. I'm gonna take them to the park for a week. I'm gonna like, you need to run a bath, throw on your favorite Netflix show and just chill out. Yeah. Like, why are we not doing more of that?

[00:36:18] Victoria Vanstone: I don't know because I think I do. You know what? I definitely think since COVID people are more kind of leaning towards not involving other people in their lives as much. Mm-hmm. Okay. It's definitely something I feel as a parent, and especially when you don't do kindie or mothers groups anymore, it can feel quite isolating.

[00:36:38] Mm. And I think for me, sometimes I don't, you know, 'cause we don't really call each other anymore. Yes 'cause that's kind of, no one phones anyone anymore.

[00:36:44] Dr Renee White: Someone calls me, I'm like, oh my God, someone's dead.

[00:36:47] Victoria Vanstone: I, I'm literally a caller, so every time anyone I call anyone, they literally think I'm calling to say this instead.

[00:36:53] So I, I feel really weird being a caller still. Okay. And I think there's, I, I definitely think it's to do with technology is that we are drifting a little bit apart as, as a community and as as individuals. We're sort of like, you know, we are separating a little bit because we do everything online like we are now. Mm-hmm. Instead of sitting and having a coffee together.

[00:37:13] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:13] Victoria Vanstone: So I do think it's really important what you say is to try and step in if you see someone struggling instead of going, or maybe they don't want me to be involved. Do you know what you've reminded me of a story of, my mum told me years ago as when a, a friend of hers had died and she went to see the wife.

[00:37:29] She didn't know the wife, but she went to see the wife, and the wife said, do you know what, you're the only person who has ever, ever. In this whole period of my grieving who has ever come round to see me and, and not called, and, and my mum has always said to me like, if. You know, someone that's died always go round and see the person rather than sending a text.

[00:37:47] And that's something I make sure I do now is to always, no matter how awkward I feel, and no matter how out of the comfort zone or you know, how, you know, stepping out of myself. I will, I would be by contacting that person. Yeah. Yeah. I always do it because I know that it's better to contact them than it is to leave it, because I think now we're like, oh, I don't wanna interrupt them, or I don't wanna get involved, and I don't want them to feel like I'm prying or mm-hmm.

[00:38:11] You know, we think too much about things, whereas in fact, I know, I don't care who it is. I would prefer someone to come round and see me, yeah. Than to send me a text or to call me. If I was struggling. Yeah. And I know that we, we kind of hide our struggles as mums as well. Yes. Because we don't want the whole world to fall apart around us.

[00:38:30] It's, you know, we feel like we need to stay in control. And that is quite overwhelming and is a lot of weight for one person to carry. And we do carry a lot anyway with work and children and everything else in between. Yeah. And it's just another layer of the responsibility of parents in modern culture where.

[00:38:51] You know, we are being compared. Yeah. There's expectations. We're trying to find coping mechanisms and you know, that unrealistic expectations, mothers, as you said. So there's a lot upon us really, isn't it? Mm-hmm. And that's why having these small groups of women around us to support us when we need them can become so important on the parenting journey.

[00:39:11] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. And on that point, was there anything, was there anything in your journey that you were like, oh, I'm really hesitant to share that? Or like anything where you were just like, well, I, how is this gonna land with the readers?

[00:39:28] Victoria Vanstone: Well, funnily enough, last week I was in Melbourne doing the audio book for this book. And when you were writing,

[00:39:33] Dr Renee White: oh my God, that's gonna be awesome.

[00:39:35] Victoria Vanstone: But when you are wr reading or writing as an author. The, you are actually just in each chapter. Yeah. Editing it and trying to refine it and trying to get it right, and you're just kind of in that page one at a time. But then when you're in five days in a studio just with, you know, the lovely producer there trying to get all the words right, trying to understand it and trying to kind of put it all together in your brain, a sort of cognitive way. I literally, especially with my first book, A thousand Wasted Sundays, that was about my journey to sobriety. Mm. There are some lines in there. I actually turned to the producer and said, why the fuck would anyone wanna know this about me? He's like, I'm not sure. I'm like, I haven't. It's too late, isn't it? It's too late.

[00:40:19] Dr Renee White: The ink is already dried.

[00:40:21] Victoria Vanstone: Yeah, the ink is dried and there's nothing I can do about it. So there are definitely, and also when I write books, I never imagined anybody would read them. Oh. Especially when I wrote that first book.

[00:40:31] It was like a diary of my life. Like what was happening in real time. Yeah. I never even considered that I would get a publishing deal and it would go out there into the world. It's quite frightening to think that those things that felt so personal and brutally honest to me, which is the same with my book Mumming.

[00:40:47] They were just things that were happening in real time and I never even considered that people would read it. So actually I think that's probably on my side 'cause I, it, I've got friends now coming up to me saying, was that me that you said like, is that me? Like, I can't believe you did that and you didn't tell me.

[00:41:05] I'm like, yeah, I'm sorry that is actually going on behind the scenes. I am a total mess. Even though at the school gates I might look like I have it all together. It is an absolute shit show and you'll know if you read my book. But I must say here, there is a mum that I talk about early in the book who's like this kind of perfect, Lorna Jane, tight, you know, tight buns, hair in a ponytail.

[00:41:26] Mm-hmm. Jogging along the sea front and everyone has said to me. Was that me? Was that me that you're describing? I'm like, no, I would never ever do that. My last thing I ever wanna do is to offend anyone in anything that I do. So of course, I, I kind of made up like everything I could possibly not like about a mum and I made a generic mum out of that. Yeah. So, yeah. So it's not any I know, just so you know. Yeah.

[00:41:51] Dr Renee White: I'd love to know like after, so you know, all these people coming up to you and saying, was that me? I'd like, what Were there, what type of reactions did you get in terms of like, did you have more people reach out to you and go, Hey, you know, can, can I help you?

[00:42:08] But then also did you get a lot of mums going, oh, thank Christ. Like it feels like you've just been living rent free in my brain. And that's exactly how I feel as well. Like I'd love to know their responses to you.

[00:42:22] Victoria Vanstone: Well, funny, one of the most torturous things are us authors do is to go, which is a really bad habit, is to go and look at reviews and to look at what the critics think.

[00:42:32] It's, it's really silly because obviously there's gonna be some people that like you and some people that don't. Yeah, of course. With this book and I'm prepared. I've got a pretty thick skin now. I've been doing this for like seven years and you know, I'm used to be called, called A-C-U-N-T occasionally. Oh, by people. I don't know. It does happen. You know, there's people out there,

[00:42:49] Dr Renee White: it's rough.

[00:42:50] Victoria Vanstone: Yeah, it's pretty rough, but they're. They're just mad. Yeah. We just gotta think there's some crazy people out there that just wanna say offensive things to people they don't know. And I'm quite happy with that now.

[00:43:00] Yeah. But I did go on to, I think it was Booktopia or Good Reads in the last week to have a look at some of the reactions, and I was so pleased there wasn't. There wasn't anything under five stars, and most of the women were saying, oh my God, I thought I was the only person that felt like this. Oh, and they were just all so lovely.

[00:43:19] Some people were saying they were just nodding along and laughing because these are the things we talk about as mums. When we get together, we talk about the time we left the baby in the crib and went and drove to school and forgot them and left them at home. We talk about all of our fails. They're the funny stories that come out of motherhood.

[00:43:36] So I wanted to write a book that would appeal to the mums that felt like they're failing. But And to let them know that we are all failing sometimes. Yeah. And that's okay. And especially to the mums that are conscious of their fails and feeling guilty about them. Because I was starting to feel a bit guilty about my shouting and about the way that I parented a lot of time, like having my swear day, which I have once a year with my children.

[00:44:00] All of these kind of things that other mums would look upon and go, oh my gosh, this woman is out of control. But these are the stories I hear on a day-to-day basis from mums. Is that I'm finding it hard, but this funny thing happened. Yeah. And that is really what it is. And for the mums that are struggling and thinking about, you know, trying to be better at it like I was, that means you are a good mum.

[00:44:23] Yeah. If you are thinking about your fails, it means you are conscious of them and that you want to do better and that's exactly how I felt. I was conscious of all of these failures and getting things wrong. So I took the time. I took a year. To try and better myself in various different ways, and that's what the book logs is just me trying and trying again, and often failing to try and be a better parent.

[00:44:47] Dr Renee White: I bloody love it. Hey Vic, we're gonna jump into our rapid fire to, uh, wrap all of this up. Are you ready? Yep. Okay. First question, what is your top tip for mums? Oh, gosh.

[00:45:00] Victoria Vanstone: Rapid fire. I think I am entering perimenopause, so rapid fire is not something I can achieve. It's more like my brain has slowed down slightly.

[00:45:12] I mean, of course, staying at home, at the camping. That's gotta be my top tip. And also, sometimes I just pretend to be a good parent. So in the book, I put some flour on my face before I went to school pickup, just so it looked like I'd been baking.

[00:45:28] Dr Renee White: Oh my God.

[00:45:29] Victoria Vanstone: So I think my top hack would be to jump through the loops and make it look like you're being a fantastic parent, even when you've got coals on lumps.

[00:45:39] That look like that was supposed to be like kale flavored muffins in the oven that now look like lumps of coal. Just don't let anyone know. No, just put some flour on your face. Yeah. Put that awkward looking kind of bakery apron on. Mm-hmm. And head to school like that. So at least the mums think you are half the mother that you actually are.

[00:45:58] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And just put icing on it. Icing fixes everything. Yeah. Yeah, just, but it has to be like dairy free and refined sugar.

[00:46:06] Victoria Vanstone: No butter icing.

[00:46:07] Dr Renee White: Yeah, all that.

[00:46:08] Victoria Vanstone: Everyone knows butter icing is the only way.

[00:46:12] Dr Renee White: Do you have like a go-to resource, whether it be a book, a workshop, it can be a poem, it can be a, a phrase or something like that for, for mums.

[00:46:24] Victoria Vanstone: I think there's one that I used within my journey to, to sobriety and with parenting, which is to play the tape forward, which has always helped me as, in fact, I'm thinking about getting a tattoo about it. Mm-hmm. Is to think about my behavior before I follow through with it. So I'll take a pause, take a moment, think about the responses to my reactions, for example.

[00:46:48] If I feel like shouting, I do the count on myself, so I almost give myself a timeout. Mm-hmm. I will go 3, 2, 1. Okay. The same tools that I would teach my children I can use on myself. So sometimes I need to play the tape forward, realise what my shouting will do, or my drinking or consequences are to my behaviors, and then take a moment to just reflect on what the consequences would be and reset.

[00:47:15] So just a moment, reset. It was the same that I used to have with cravings. Mm-hmm. Play the tape forward. Would it be a good idea to have a drink now? Is it a good idea to shout now? No, it's not. Reset, redefine what I'm gonna do and start again.

[00:47:29] Dr Renee White: I bloody love that. And yes, get the tattoo. I'm all for tattoos. I've got like four now. They all mean something very specific to me. Yeah. Of different chapters in my life. So

[00:47:38] Victoria Vanstone: yeah, I might just get help written on my heart, hand it, put it on it so the other mums can see in the car park. Instead of me having to cry, I am just gonna put my hand up and it just says help. I'm having a bad day. I need Lindt balls.

[00:47:51] Dr Renee White: I love that. Oh, last question, which we always ask our guests. We borrow this one from Brene Brown.

[00:47:59] Victoria Vanstone: Oh yeah. Love her.

[00:48:00] Dr Renee White: What do you keep on your bedside table?

[00:48:03] Victoria Vanstone: I've got a pile of books. I know every mums gonna say this 'cause people send me books. Now there's this thing when you become an author, they think that I know stuff, which I don't

[00:48:12] Dr Renee White: use my everyone stop sending the books.

[00:48:15] Victoria Vanstone: Stop sending the books. I love getting them, but they're, the pile is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And the other thing I have on my bedside table is my watch charger, my iWatch. Mm-hmm. Because now I like to, you know, see how long I go on my rage walk for. Mm-hmm. And I think it's getting shorter actually, 'cause my rage seems to dissipate quicker than it used to.

[00:48:34] But yeah, there's definitely progress, but there's no progress on the reading front. I. I just need to be on holiday to do that now. So yeah, there's a lot of amazing books and I'm reading Gina Chick's book at the moment, which I'm absolutely loving. She's a fantastic writer. So yeah, I just wanna get to a stage in my life where I can start on the pile and really get reading. That would be my dream place to reach, but we'll see. That's a few years off, I think.

[00:49:00] Dr Renee White: Work in progress.

[00:49:01] Victoria Vanstone: Yeah,

[00:49:01] Dr Renee White: it has been amazing having you on the podcast and as I started this, you're absolutely hilarious. I love it. I was like, yes. I said crying with laughter as I was reading this. Where can everyone find your book?

[00:49:13] Victoria Vanstone: Yeah.

[00:49:14] Dr Renee White: Popular

[00:49:15] Victoria Vanstone: Mumming. You can find it at Booktopia. Any of your local bookstores at Harry Hart org or QBD or anywhere like that, you go in and order it. You can probably get it from the library, but don't do that. I don't get any money if you do that. Yeah, come on guys. Get around them. Come on guys support the struggling offers in Australia.

[00:49:31] Come on. Uh, you can, I love it. The audio book, it was recorded last week. I think that's out on the 1st of July. And the ebook you can buy anywhere in the world. So if anyone's listening in a different country, you can download the ebook version of the book and you'll be able to get the audio version in a month.

[00:49:48] And my podcast is called Sober Awkward. We won the Best Wellbeing podcast in Australia last year, so

[00:49:52] Dr Renee White: yeah, well done. I saw that.

[00:49:54] Victoria Vanstone: Yeah. Thank you. That was huge. But yeah, so it's comedy again. We like to talk about light, serious topics actually in a kind of lighthearted way and kind of give, give everybody the opportunity to fail and talk a lot about love and resilience and just showing up 'cause sometimes that's all you can do as a mum is just show up.

[00:50:12] And I think my book Mumming is Ulti ultimately about, you know, unconditional love, which, which seeps out of every cupboard in my house. And I think at the end of the book I say, look, if somebody was to look through my window. They would see chaos and you know, ball bag written on the fridge and a child with their head glue gun to the dining room table.

[00:50:32] But they'd also see buckets and buckets of love flowing out of every orifice. And I think that is what as mums. That we give without question and if, if that's you, then I really recommend that you know, you trust yourself and trust your gut. And I know sometimes we fail and that's okay. Failing is kind of our superpower.

[00:50:56] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. And we'll have all of those details about your book in show notes. So

[00:51:07] Victoria Vanstone: My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:51:09] Dr Renee White: My pleasure. Alright everyone, until next week, see you.

[00:51:13] If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well. You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. Head to our website, I fill your cup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings, where every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself, ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and empowered, so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence. Until next time. Bye.