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Fawn has officially been
added to the growing list of

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Polyvagal Theory mixed states.

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I'll explain what fawning is and how
the Theory interprets it to deepen your

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understanding of the Polyvagal Theory.

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My name is Justin Sunseri.

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I'm a therapist, coach, and the creator
of the Polyvagal Trauma Relief System.

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Welcome to Stuck Not Broken,
where I teach you how to live

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with more calm, confidence, and
connection without the psychobabble.

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So, yeah, the Polyvagal Theory has three
brand new additions to the mixed states.

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We have appeasement, which I covered in
the last episode of Stuck Not Broken.

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Fawn, which I'll be talking about
in this one and intimacy, which

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I'll talk about in the next episode.

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Sadly though, in the new book,
our Polyvagal world, there really

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is not much information on this.

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At all they have.

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Maybe two pages.

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I think it's more like one.

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But maybe two pages.

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Uh, which is not just on fawn,
but it's on fawn and appeasement.

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And they don't really talk about
fawn in much detail whatsoever.

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It's really only like.

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A solid couple of lines where
they really try to explain how

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it's different than appeasement.

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And I'm not going to quote it
because I have the advanced copy

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and I don't know if it has changed.

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Since, uh, well, once it comes out,
I don't know if the quotes will still

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be relevant or the, exactly the same.

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So I I'm, I'm not going to quote it.

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Plus the advanced copy says
don't quote it for publication.

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So, uh, I'm not going to do that.

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But there's not much
there as of right now.

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There's not much there.

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Oh, by the way I do.

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Overall recommend the book.

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As of right now, I'll do a
book review on that in the near

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future, but just so you know yeah.

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I think it's a good read.

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It's worth buying.

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And I'll have a link in
the description for you.

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Again, review is coming soon.

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So fawn is not the same as appeasement,
at least through the lens of the Polyvagal

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Theory as I was researching fawn.

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It is confused with, or it is
lumped together with appeasement

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and maybe they belong together.

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I think you could make an argument there.

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Maybe it's not a super important
to distinguish the two, but.

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Porges believes or at least
him and his son, Seth.

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Who co-wrote the book
actually wrote the book.

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And then Dr.

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Porges gave it a stamp of approval.

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At least Seth and Dr.

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Porges believe that they
deserve to be distinguished.

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And actually Dr.

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Porges is in a, in a paper on
appeasement in Stockholm syndrome.

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I believe separated the two as well.

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So for all intents and purposes,
according to the Polyvagal Theory, fawn

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and appeasement should be distinct.

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I'm going to.

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We'll just leave it at that for now.

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Appeasement, as I mentioned last time.

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Involves the activation of
all the Polyvagal states.

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And as kind of a, I believe what
they called, it was a super social

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engagement or a super co-regulation.

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With the.

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Uh, the evolutionary intent
of deescalating or avoiding

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a life-threatening situation.

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For us humans, this would pop up
most extremely in like a hostage

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situation or a domestic violence.

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One.

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And appeasement the appeaser is joining
with their abuser or their captor.

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They are really aligning their values.

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With their captors and, uh, yeah,
I'll, I'll leave it at that.

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Cause I talked about it last episode.

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So go listen to that one.

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If you want a deeper dive into that.

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We are here for fawn though.

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Uh, fawna is very similar.

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I would argue with also the
intention of deescalation or reducing

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the potential of life threat.

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But instead of through
a pseudo co-regulation.

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Now it's through compliance
instead of through.

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The quote-unquote super social engagement.

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Now it's through compliance.

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So it's not co-regulating appeasement.

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To me as I'm understanding of this,
it's more about invisibility hiding.

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Uh, existing in a very.

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Uh, numb state, I think.

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And subservience.

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Fawning is about surrendering your
values and your agency in compliance to

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the dominant other that is really, um,
Controlling the situation dominating.

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The situation.

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Fawning is about quietly attempting
to please that other person.

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Uh, in order to extend those
moments of deescalation.

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It's a very, I think very
preventative kind of thing.

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Fawning  uh, involves preemptively
anticipating their needs and

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really not trying to rock the boat.

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Although that individuals already in
the situation that is extreme and,

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and, uh, potentially a life threat.

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This is very similar to appeasement.

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The potential evolutionary intent
of fawning, is that the predator

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or in our case, the abductor.

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The or abuser, but the
predator might lose interest.

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So if they're prey or if the captive.

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Or the victim of the domestic
violence, uh, situation.

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If they can anticipate the needs
of the other and preemptively.

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Meet their needs or keep things at
a, at a calmer level by surrendering

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their own values and empowerment.

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Then the predator might lose interests.

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In them, they might not see
them as a threat whatsoever.

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And that might reduce the defensive
activation or the aggressive.

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Activation the bullying or the
abusive kind of activation.

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Although, when I talked to Dr.

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Porges in my interview with him a
couple episodes ago, he did say that

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fawning may lead to increase risk.

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And he's, he mentioned specifically murder
and he said something, uh, something about

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things being more potentially severe.

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So I'm that kind of makes me wonder.

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Does the predator then in the
face of the fawning, potentially

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amplify, does their state.

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Get amplified.

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Uh, thus worsening the situation.

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So maybe there are state.

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As it, raises and boils over into a rage.

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It's going, has to be targeted toward it.

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Doesn't have to be, but their
behavioral adaptation is to targeted

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towards somebody, someone that they
can inflict their dominance on.

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So even though the fawner may
successfully preemptively.

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Keep things at a minimum as far as risk.

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Eventually for that dominant, abusive
captor, they eventually that, that

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stuck state doesn't really go anywhere.

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Maybe it's, you know, simmered down enough
to get through the day and get their

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needs met as far as the fawner but the
dominant individual in the situation.

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They're stuck states.

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That I would, I would
anticipate, I would guess.

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That intense, uh, hidden frozen.

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Explosive rage doesn't go anywhere.

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It's still there.

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So as it boils over eventually does get
directed toward the person who is in

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more of a fawn state as best I can tell.

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Or as best I'm understanding it.

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That boiled over rage ends up
reinforcing the, to the person

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who's in a fawn state that they
need to stay in a fawn, mixed state.

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They need to stay compliant.

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They cannot escape.

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They must continually, be
subservient or submissive.

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To the other, the dominant
one in this relationship.

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The biggest difference between
fawning and appeasement might be

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that the person who was fawning.

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As I'm understanding it doesn't
necessarily need to provide.

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Cues of safety.

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If anything in these
types of relationships,

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The person fawning.

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Probably needs to give no queues.

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Of safety or flight fight.

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They simply need to be.

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Hidden invisible subservient.

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They must relinquish all of
themselves to the other person.

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In order for that
person, the dominant one.

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To not explode in rage.

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I imagine that.

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If the fawning person did anything
that was out of line of that.

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Relationship.

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That it would potentially trigger that
explosive rage and the other person.

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So any attempts to get out of
the situation, any attempts to

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rationalize, talk to the person.

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Co-regulate actually may trigger
that other person into, releasing

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the rage that explosive rage.

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In the relationships with
appeasement, the dominant other one.

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Seems to the, the
appeasement seems to work.

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So the appeaser seems to be able
to provide cues of safety and not

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trigger the wrath of the other person.

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So a fawn in relationship.

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It seems like that.

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Shut down, hiding invisible, kind of a
flavor, And preemptively meeting the needs

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of the other one, as I'm understanding
it, that seems to be the role of, of

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someone who's in a fawn mixed state.

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But anyhow, I think that's kind of maybe
what Porges meant when he said that it

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might lead to increase risk, like murder.

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Being in a fawn mixed state means that
there is a heavy level of enmeshment

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with the other person's emotions and
really being able, unable to distinguish

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the self from the other person.

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Being a fawn state is going to have a
heavy dose of numbness and dissociation.

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They're going to.

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To be doing lots of self-sacrifice to try
to fix the problems of the other person to

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blame themselves denying their own needs.

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I look at this as pleasing versus
appeasing appeasing, like we said, in

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the last episode, It's about joining
with the other, like a captive who's

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assisting their captor with committing
crimes maybe, or, evading authorities.

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And also providing, you
know, cues of connection.

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Whereas with this pleasing of
fawning, this is more about tending

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to the needs of the dominant other,
and overly accommodating them

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and what they need or will need.

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At the expense of the self.

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I kept reading that fawning
probably has a lot to do with a

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history of childhood rejection.

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Shame neglect.

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And more.

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Uh, different types of abuse
basically, but it probably has a

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lot, or it's very much connected
to C PTSD, which is complex.

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Post-traumatic stress disorder,
a heavy association with that.

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And with, uh, relational
trauma, interpersonal trauma.

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You may remember from my Polyvagal.

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101 series that there
are two paths of trauma.

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One of those is the acute life threat
reaction where you go through a thing.

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That you survived and are left
in a stuck defensive state.

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The other path of trauma.

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Really fits in more with the
fawning, which is the, uh, chronic

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disruption of connectedness.

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And that would be more connected
with C PTSD, in my opinion.

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This is definitely gonna result
in a chronic defensive state.

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This could be really any
chronic defensive state.

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Uh, the CPTSD in particular,
I'll talk about fawn separately.

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But C PTSD results from the
impulse to connect chronically

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or consistently being cut off.

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Not only cut off, but
rejected and shamed as well.

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So that person's connection
impulses never completed.

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They don't ever actually get a healthy
attachments with a safe other, which is

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unbelievably important for our foundations
in life to be able to identify safety in

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others, but also within ourselves as well.

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Having a safe, other is
the foundation that we use.

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To build self-regulation and to provide
a co-regulation to others in the future.

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So what then are the states of fawn
since fawn is now a mixed state?

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In the book, it pretty much just says
that it's flight fight and shutdown.

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I'm understanding this as the
fight fighting state would

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be used for mobilization.

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But in this context, the person's not
mobilizing to escape or be aggressive.

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Instead they're using that
mobilization through hypervigilance.

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And they're using that
mobilization in order to meet

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the needs of the other person.

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But there's also, obviously I think
obviously a heavy amount of shutdown.

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When it comes to fawn.

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The dissociation, they're surrendering the
relinquishing of the self and one's power.

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Definitely comes from shutdown.

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So why would somebody fawn?

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Why would they stay in
an abusive relationship?

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I think there's a common question.

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So let's bring this back to what our
biological imperative is, or maybe

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one of our biological imperatives.

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And that is.

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To find safety because being on
our safety state, Is what allows

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us to optimize our resources for
health and growth and restoration.

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So our bodies are compelled.

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To find homeostasis to find
safety to self-regulate.

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But also yes.

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To receive co-regulation and
give co-regulation as well.

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So the biological imperative
is to find safety.

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I think these fawning relationships
don't really provide real safety,

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obviously, but there might be moments
of feeling something like safety.

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There may be moments in between
explosive rage episodes, where it

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feels like connection or a pseudo
connection or close enough to connection.

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It may feel like protection.

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It may feel like, or may, maybe.

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Predictable.

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Just like with appeasement.

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Again, the goal is always
safety to, to find connection.

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And appeasement brings.

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Kind of safety.

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It's not actual safety, obviously.

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But it is some level of connection and
that might do enough for the body to be

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able to reach some level of homeostasis
and still use resources for health and

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growth and restoration at least enough.

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So with fawning, it's like a pseudo
safety, not actual safety, obviously.

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There is a level of diminished threat
and there probably is some level of

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predictability and predictability.

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In and of itself is
kind of a cue of safety.

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But no, it's not actual safety.

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So that's fawning and that's kind of how
it could fit into the Polyvagal Theory.

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I have my questions.

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I have my doubts and I'm going
to try to flesh those out.

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In an episode for you next.

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And then I will go into intimacy.

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But for now that's, that's it
that's fawning through that

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lens of the Polyvagal Theory.

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I think it connects to
flight fight and shutdown.

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I think shutdown, especially.

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I think that's a huge part of this.

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And it also connects to the second
path of trauma, which is the chronic

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disruption of connectedness that leaves
somebody in a stuck defensive state.

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And when it comes to fawning,
it's going to be more of that.

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I think, I think more of the
shutdown stuck defense of state with.

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Some access to flight and fight.

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Thank you so much for joining me in
this episode of stuck, not broken.

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Being stuck can show up in many different
ways, not just fawning, but also anxiety.

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And anger and depression overwhelm.

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Panic fear and more.

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You're probably well aware of this.

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I don't need to tell you.

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I know.

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So if you're ready to take the next
steps on getting unstuck for yourself

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without spending a ton of money.

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00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,939
I invite you to consider subscribing
to stuck, not broken total access.

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00:15:05,439 --> 00:15:09,590
You will gain exclusive access to
the knowledge that you need through

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my Polyvagal trauma relief system.

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00:15:12,489 --> 00:15:15,219
You'll also have the option of
connecting with others and spending

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00:15:15,219 --> 00:15:17,110
more time with me in the community.

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00:15:17,620 --> 00:15:19,330
Plus a bunch of other stuff.

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00:15:19,660 --> 00:15:21,279
If you want to go even deeper.

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Into your untucking process.

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I'll put a link in the description
for you to learn more about

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00:15:26,019 --> 00:15:27,549
Stuck not Broken: Total Access.

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Thank you so much for being
a part of the podcast.

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00:15:30,479 --> 00:15:34,890
And I look forward to welcoming you as
a member of my total access community.

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I of course have a nifty gifty for you?

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When you sign up for my email
list experiences, we're talking

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00:15:40,650 --> 00:15:42,090
about the Polyvagal Theory.

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00:15:42,719 --> 00:15:45,150
And some foundational
pieces of knowledge here.

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00:15:45,630 --> 00:15:49,080
Uh, I have a ebook for you that
connects the Polyvagal Theory.

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00:15:49,530 --> 00:15:50,130
To trauma.

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00:15:50,630 --> 00:15:53,679
It is a full ebook, not just like
a little brochure or pamphlet.

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00:15:54,049 --> 00:15:54,739
It's a full on.

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00:15:54,890 --> 00:15:56,269
Uh, ebook that you can download.

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00:15:56,900 --> 00:16:00,620
And read at your leisure with a
cup of coffee or tea and a blanket.

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00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,439
Just sign up for my email list.

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00:16:02,499 --> 00:16:05,289
I'll have a link for you in
the description to that ebook.

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00:16:05,589 --> 00:16:07,119
Otherwise, thank you
so much for listening.

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I hope this episode has been a helpful
resource for you in learning about.

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And applying the Polyvagal Theory.

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To your trauma recovery process.

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Bye.