there is no amount of marketing that overcomes.
A bad product.
even if it's true for that, some, you know, 3 months, 6
months, 12 months, like over the very long period of time,
you know, the reputation in the product is the ultimate,
you know, determinant of value
impatience with action, patience with results, I think that
like defines the trust thing.
Authors now have their own audience.
They can sell directly through their website or, you know, link
people directly from their social media, their newsletter, whatever.
they may give away a thousand books.
Exactly.
But they'll get $10 million in business to their core business
or raise a hundreds of millions of dollars as a result of
having that book out there and getting it into the right hands
show me another marketing channel that like makes you money,
builds trust at a deep level and creates like high intent inbound
Eric, it's good to have you here, brother.
and I'm happy we get to connect and I've been reading this, this
is actually, this book here has been by my bedside for years now
since it came out The Almanac of Naval Akan, where you, I dunno
if you, yeah, I would, maybe you were the curator of that book.
the
I never, I never really know what, what verb to use, 'cause
write doesn't, you know, write, build, edit, curate,
create whatever you want to do.
But you're obviously doing a lot more.
But that's, that was the first time, you know, I was introduced
to your way of thinking and just like the sheer massive,
like just the work that would go into something like that.
I would love to dive in later on that, but I mean, yourself,
man, you're doing some, some very interesting things.
You know, scribe media is, is, you're the CEO over there.
So I mean, I guess how are you doing, you know, how are,
how are things right now?
Let's start there.
Like,
I'm, I'm learning to juggle.
I'm learning to juggle.
It's, you know, it's, it's hard to, Split your attention across
a handful of different projects.
But, it's also really fun.
And I think, you know, you, you just try to stay in a place
where you take the perspective, you know, look for synergies,
not, not distractions.
so find ways that things can like feed each other
and stack on each other.
And, you know, my, buddy David Center's got a great line.
It's like opportunity, well handled leads to more opportunity and
true.
Yeah.
as sort of you, if you do something well, it unlocks new
opportunities and, The opportunity cost of your time should
continue to go up over time.
Like that's a good problem to have.
And yeah, you just end up with a lot of balls in the air.
Yeah.
And you probably get used to it just even more and more.
I hope so,
one day, one day.
one day.
Well, I mean, I'm, I'm so intrigued by the story.
Like I was mentioning, you know, I've, I've known about
Scribe for a lot of years.
I've seen, you know, Tucker and Tucker Max speak about it.
I think he was one of the founders, right?
Or co-founders.
Founder.
Yeah.
Tucker and, Zach Obrat were the co-founders of Scribe.
that's right.
Yeah.
So, I mean, interesting story.
I would love for you to break things down, but you're
at the helm right now and.
I guess, yeah.
Where would you wanna start with that?
'cause I have some, I have some questions and thoughts, but I mean,
like this episode I feel like is, it'd be a great journey about what
you've gone starting as an author, a writer, and now wrote thing.
Yeah.
Cool.
Yeah, so I'll, if I do maybe the story of Scribe and the
story of Eric and they'll, they'll merge, in the third act.
But, we've got, like you mentioned, it's the right place to start.
Tucker Max and Zach obrien and Tucker is, you know, for people
who haven't heard of him, a very successful author, he's one of the
original like, blog to book guys.
I mean, millions and millions of copies sold multiple times.
New York Times best seller.
and so he got all these calls from friends, so
hilarious, hilarious guy.
like pathologically honest.
just a really, really interesting dude.
And, he's, you know, we were sort of reading each other's blogs
early on as he was starting Scribe.
So I also had been following Scribe since the very beginning.
And I think the vision that they had for where publishing was
heading was incredible and even more incredible 10 years ago.
And they've really like the, sort of the increased rise in hybrid
and people leaving the traditional.
You know, leaders leaving the traditional publishing and setting
up their own kind of more unique models that are closer to what
Scribe has done are all like really interesting sort of proof
points of their original vision.
And, you know, over 10 years they built up this
really impressive company.
you know, they, I think it was originally it was like bootstrapped
and grew like crazy, grew up to, you know, tens of millions and,
you know, dozens of employees.
And after eight years or so, they were.
You know, they're founders and they're ready to go do other stuff.
Tucker has a family and he's, kind of ready to retiring, go do his
ranching and write his memoir.
And, and, and Zach on the other side is like a super genius and
he went off and did, he became one of the biggest like bug bounty
hunters in the Ethereum ecosystem.
So he's like in the crypto world and they totally
went different directions.
Like both brilliant and interesting and awesome guys.
And, as they stepped back from the company, the guy who, who they had
hired as CEO before and who sort of took sole control of the company
after they left, I, it went off the rails a little bit, like, and
a little bit turned into a lot and there's a very, like Tucker wrote
an incredible kind of postmortem about this whole thing and some
of the psychological he did in that post where I think no other.
Business case study I've ever read has done, which is understand the
psychology of the leader that led to the mistakes in the business.
And then ultimately the, you know, the outcome that,
affected so many people.
It, it ended up being, quite an ugly bankruptcy actually,
which I got caught up in.
so
an author right?
At the
yeah, so, so that's like smash cut back to like act one of Eric.
like I, you know.
Came from the venture backed startup world.
I've always been a, a, like a big reader and writer,
and I love, like tweeting.
Turned into blogging.
Blogging, turned into writing this book, the Almanac Naval.
And, since Tucker, I'd been reading his blog and following him and, he
was just one of the first people I reached out to and I was starting
to talk to authors about, like, I.
How do you navigate this world of publishing?
What are the options?
It's very confusing.
It's only gotten more confusing.
so he was kind enough to take some time with me and lay out
the options and talk to me about my book and help kind of really
develop it and move it along.
I. And so I ended up, publishing that first book with Scribe
as an author in 20 19, 20 20.
And I had an incredible experience.
Like the team was perfect.
I learned so much.
It was a, a remarkably like, transformative experience.
And that book changed my life, you know, and, and as a model,
I thought Scribe was just so, I thought it was dead on.
I thought it was so correct.
I thought they were very, They were just really honest about
like, look, you as the author, the CEO of the book, like
you're going to front the cost.
You're gonna take the risk, but you also assume full
control of this thing.
You get to make all the final creative decisions.
You get to craft the book the way you want to, that serves your goals
and your life, and you're gonna get the full upside, which especially
in from a book like Naval, turned out to be life changing,
Yeah, that was what?
Million plus copies, right?
Yeah, I think we're, we're at a million and a half.
I think.
you know, all, all formats, all languages like worldwide.
so it's, it, you know, it's a big world, but, you know, not a
lot of books make it there, man.
it's, it's crazy.
I. You know, people.
Thank you.
I mean, it's, it is a testament to like Val's wisdom, I think.
And you know, the word of mouth around it has been just crazy.
So, I, I don't think it's, you know, I worked hard on the book,
but I don't think it's like, it's not some genius marketing
hack that I have, right.
It's just like a good product that changes people's lives and a lot of
people can get something from it and it's just, you know, had wind in its
sales very, very luckily for months
It's value, it's value packed, man.
Like, there's no, there's no fluff in there.
Like, seriously, if you don't have, I'll, I'll be linking it
in the, notes, all that stuff.
Easy
Thank you.
I loved, I love to see a copy that's just Yeah.
Beat to shit that's got highlights on every page.
It's all dogeared.
Yeah.
It's been in and out of the backpack a thousand times.
or, or like you said, people are like, yeah, you,
you've been in my bedroom.
It's been sitting next to my toilet.
You know, whatever the,
Whatever it's seen, you know, so you're top of mind and it's true.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's perfect.
I love to hear it.
or yeah, being gifted, like, I think being gifted is the best compliment
a book can receive, right?
So, when people are like, I gave this to my little brother, it
changed his life, he changed his major, dropped outta school
or quit med school or whatever.
The thing is that,
Yeah.
you know, sort of wrapping your head around some of these
principles does for people, so.
I, I immediately, I mean, especially with a book like that, I, and
an experience like that with Scribe, I immediately started
writing my second book, and which was the anthology of B and
that came out, like late 2023.
But that was the book that I was publishing with Scribe also, and
got caught up in this bankruptcy.
So, you know, when the, the sort of the house fell, You know, I took
a loss just like everybody else in that, but I also was like, man, I
feel like I owe this company, you know, something like, some level
of effort to save them after, you know, the, all of the good
that I got from them and all, you know, the wonderful experience
I had with the team and the respect I had for everybody there.
and so I started just making some phone calls and I, lucky enough
through just conferences and Twitter and friendships to know
people who buy companies, or, or.
You know, work in private equity or permanent equity.
Yeah.
So I started making phone calls and I found these guys, Eva
and Xavier, who run Enduring Ventures, who I'd met a few
times at, you know, at Berkshire Hanaway conference and, I think
Capital Camp, but a few others.
And, yeah, they're just good news.
They do, they run a long-term holding company that's so,
it's not a fund, they're not trying to flip companies.
They, they buy and hold for the long run and they have a background in
publishing and, and a background in, you know, distressed situations,
which like this definitely was
so, they, they knew the, the now situation you're in, but they also
had that long-term vision that, you know, they'll stick around with.
Yeah.
And they saw, they saw, you know what I saw, which is
like, this is a unique model.
It is.
It had been a great brand until this very moment, which basically
one guy like screwed it up.
and, you know, they're, they're just long-term thinkers
and so they, they saw the potential, I think, and they, I.
We're willing to, do some of the really messy, heavy lifting to like
try to, you know, in situations like that, there's no perfect solution.
There's no, everybody's gonna end up angry about something.
and there's a lot of pain to go around, like economic and emotional
yeah.
supporting what, thousands, I think what you have to say,
like 2000 plus, authors, right?
I don't know what was going on at that time, but trust, you
know, like there's a lot of that that probably is lost and
you're just like, oh, shoot.
You know, it's caught in the middle, right?
There were, there were hundreds of active authors and, a, a lot
of people got, It just ended up in really unenviable situations and
I've heard some, some horror stories and, I've been trying to like, have
conversations with those people and make up for that and do what we can.
essentially what ended up happening is we started a brand
new company, hired over some of the team and basically bought the,
the IP from the bank that, yeah.
So the, the kind of mechanics are, are interesting.
It's not my expertise, but, to my surprise, they called me after and
said like, we, okay, we got this new thing and we need somebody to run
it, and we think that should be you.
So I was like, all right, let's give this thing a
you, you raised your hand, man.
I mean,
Yeah.
that's like 90% of the battle right there.
Maybe more even you.
Yeah.
Yeah, and it ended up being a very interesting, like, you know,
most people I know who are CEOs either built their business from
the ground up or spent 15 years there and got hired into the role
after sort of working their way up.
And so I think, you know, there, there's this sort of, Search
fund and small business and small business acquisition and like
private equity world that, is full of kind of these weirdly
interesting, almost one-off stories of like, you know, seller
finance acquisitions and or, or privately funded or search
funded or independent sponsors.
And this ended up being like a very weird combination of all of
those, like kind of by accident.
But it's a very, it's a cool, it's a really cool world and very
interesting stuff happens in it.
Man.
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking of like the moment when you
stepped into the role as CEO.
Like, was there, I don't know, like was there, what was the
feeling that you had at that point?
Because you obviously probably learning a ton and things that you
didn't totally know about, like.
Was there something that maybe your gut was feeling that
like spreadsheets and all the numbers really weren't talking,
like there had to have been something happening there?
It's a lot.
I mean, you said it right?
It's a lot of learning.
It's a lot of getting oriented as quickly as possible, to,
to a lot of things, right?
Like you are meeting the whole team, you're meeting the customers, you're
trying to understand the processes.
there's so much to wrap your head around really quickly.
And, friends who've been through this before warned me, they're
like, you will get asked to make a decision in the first week
that you don't think you'll be ready for, for six more months.
And like, you just have to do the best you can with what you have.
So it's a very, it is a very like seat of the pants experience and,
but I, you know, all, all you can do is kind of keep doing your best.
And, you know, I'm 18 months in now and I, I'm still like,
I'm still trying to learn.
I'm still, there's so much, you know, you can't
possibly know enough.
And every additional piece of information helps, like every
customer you can talk to.
trying to understand your whole team's roles ever
more deeply and how they all fit together and the co.
Changing environments, you know, the different offers, different authors,
different tools, different vendors.
True.
so yeah, it's, it is already a dynamic environment and
then you're trying to play catch up on top of it.
But, it's also kinda what makes it fun.
You know, it's a very fun, I. It's fun to kind of be the, like, to
some extent, the nexus of all of that information and have it all
kind of like feeding into you.
It's a lot to process, but,
it's, it's very fun.
Like for, for somebody who's deeply and, endlessly curious
and hungry to understand all of this, like, it's fantastic.
right in the middle of it.
Yeah.
I mean, I see a bunch of books behind you, so it's like
you're literally surrounded by authors all day, every day.
Yeah, dude, it is.
I tell you, it is brutal to like have, you know, six to eight
author like meetings with authors a day who they, they explain
their book Heidi, and you're like, shit, I wanna read that book.
And then half an hour later you're like, that sounds amazing.
I would love to read that book.
and
having podcasts like this, like, I'm like, that's a great idea.
Shit.
Nope.
Don't focus, focus.
yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it is very easy for the, yeah, the, the opportunities
and ideas and, reading material in particular to stack up.
I bet.
Yeah.
Well, walk me through, there's like two, two ways I want to go
and I don't know which way it is yet, but like, maybe start
with the rebuilding trust.
Like, 'cause I was thinking the trust with existing authors, maybe
ones that, you know, and this leads me to like the model of scribe too.
I want to make that very clear.
I don't know which way, that goes because.
Yeah, I don't know.
I'll just leave that to you.
Yeah, I, let's, let's start with, the trust is the
foundation of everything.
So I think starting there, you know, I, I wrote in the, wrote
the first like annual letter, recently to kind of like the
community and the, the team and, I. I, I think this first year was
all about just rebuilding trust.
And I don't think, you know, it's not something you can ask for.
It's something you have to earn and it takes time and repetition and,
like to be trustworthy, you have to be reliable.
And to be reliable, people need a sample size.
And you know, there's some element where you can't speed that up.
You just have to be.
Conspicuously doing the thing that you are expected to do,
that you promised that you would do over and over again.
And, you know, if you're greedy for trust, it's much more, you
know, it's, it's, people hesitate.
It's a very, like, that's why I say you can't really ask for it.
You just have to earn it.
It's like, like they could smell it out that you're wanting
it maybe more or you know,
Yeah.
Well, when people like proclaim themselves to be
trustworthy, it's almost always a counter signal, right?
Like if they're leading with like, conspicuous, oh, like,
and, and frankly, the guy that used to run, scribe did this.
you know, he, he would do like lots of claims about transparency
and honesty and integrity and, You know, I, I, my focus
for the team was like, let's just go back to fundamentals.
Let's just focus.
We have to be flawless on the fundamentals of what we're doing.
We don't miss deadlines, we don't ship mistakes.
We just do the work.
And the best advertisement is the work on our desk.
And we're in the business of rebuilding a reputation like day
by day, week by week, book by book.
We're not gonna shout about it.
We're not gonna ask for it.
We're just going to do the work.
And, you know, I, I've never been one to like.
I do not like to advertise myself.
I'd rather like just do good work and let the work speak
for itself and let others sort of, if they feel comfortable,
you know, recommend tell other people that we did good work.
It's pretty, it's like a testament of what you did with,
with, the Naval book, you know?
Yeah.
I think, you know, you, you can't, there is no amount
of marketing that overcomes.
A bad product.
and e even if it's true for that, some, you know, 3 months, 6 months,
12 months, like over the very long period of time, you know, the
reputation in the product is the ultimate, you know, determinant
of value and that's just the right place to keep the focus.
I like that.
No, I would say like, you know, 'cause I was thinking is there some
kind of trust hack or anything, but it's, it's really doing
what you say, you know, because most people don't even do that.
Maybe, do it in a concise or effective manner that
helps everybody and, and just, just keep doing it.
Keep showing
up.
Like, don't
any, any trust hack I think destroys trust.
You know, it, it's kinda like, you know, I think we've all had
experiences with somebody who like overdosed on how to win
friends and influence people, and they're like, Hey Joe, it's
really great to see you, Joe.
How's your wife, Joe, Joe?
Like all of the like hacks that you're like,
we've, we've met one time.
Like, just be a human.
and like let, let the relationship develop normally.
so it's a very, yeah, I think it like you just.
You just gotta be the kind of, be the partner that you would want
That's good.
to be seen as.
Yeah, just walk the, walk the walk and keep your mouth shut
and, let it take care of itself.
Be patient.
man, patience is probably the, it's the toughest, but it's, it's true.
You just gotta let stuff develop as
I, I mean, I, I, I will quote Naval at least five times in this episode.
'cause it's an occupational hazard for me.
But, you know, impatience with action, patience with
results, I think that like defines the trust thing.
Like you must be obsessive and impatient about doing good work.
And you have to be patient with allowing that reputation
to, you know, catch up to the work that you're doing.
'cause it's always gonna be a la a lagging indicator.
Yes.
Yeah.
And that's layer, layer, everything with naval quotes.
'cause I know, I mean, there's old book obviously, but people love him.
So, and if you're not following Naval for whatever reason, and
Eric like, go find him on Twitter.
I'm sure it's probably the best place or X whatever.
So, but let's go to the, the, the model of scribe media.
Like, did things change from before?
I guess break it down in general.
'cause I know a lot of folks listening, watching.
Maybe have a book or thinking about a book.
I mean, let's be honest.
We'll, we'll address the whole tech thing and how there's
tools like AI now that could speed up their writing.
So people thinking, Hey, I could just do this myself.
Like, why would I go to Scribe and, you know, work with you guys?
Yeah.
So, the, I'll give you the, like the context f first is that the
whole history of publishing is basically, 150 year old business
model that the presumption is that most books are sold in bookstores,
that they're physical books.
the presumption is that they're marketed through
centralized media like TV and newspapers and magazines.
The presumption is also that you need like a big capital
investment upfront to like do a big print run of books and get
them all distributed in order to.
Sell books.
And when all those things were true a hundred years ago, even 50 years
ago, it made a ton of sense to have a traditional publishing model.
And where, you know, they give authors advances, they take control
of the copyright, and they basically manage the book in the inventory
of the book for a long period of time, and they just pay the author
some royalties for having written the thing in the first place.
And what is obvious to everybody living on the internet now
is like all three of those have actually flipped 180.
Like most books, this is not obvious, but most books, physical
books that you use now are print on demand, like almost
everything you buy on Amazon.
Like, so there is no need for a big upfront investment.
There's no physical inventory.
It's basically like selling a digital product and just like
Amazon takes care of printing and distribution for you.
The other is that most books are sold on Amazon or on other
websites, and so you don't actually need a huge, you know,
proprietary distribution network.
they still exist and people still buy from bookstores, but like the
majority of them are sold either digitally or through Amazon, even
when there are physical versions.
And third, like.
You don't need, you know, going on the late show or
the morning show doesn't move a ton of copies anymore.
It's like going on podcasts, newsletters, and being
recommended on social media.
and so through with all those as sort of givens, the model that
makes the most sense is actually like authors being in full control.
Authors now have their own audience.
They can sell directly through their website or, you know, link
people directly from their social media, their newsletter, whatever.
the authors have done all the work to de-risk the book, essentially.
the, the authors in many cases, like make more money from other
sources, you know, whether it's coaching, speaking, consulting,
you know, a, a fund, like whatever the business model is.
There's usually, especially for like non-fiction business authors
that we normally work with, lots of ways for them to win, other than
selling a ton of books and making money from the royalties themselves.
so there's a few authors that we've worked with that are like that.
So, David Goggins is, is the most.
Famous, and the highest selling, I mean, one of the
bestselling memoirs of all time.
And he, he basically couldn't get an offer that he was happy with
from a traditional publisher.
He's like, you guys are under undervaluing me, and, you know, if
you're not gonna pay me what I'm worth, I'll, I'll go do it myself.
And so he, he worked with Scribe and published, Can't Hurt Me
and Never Finished both with us.
Which means, yeah, both incredible books.
and he just went to war at like, only David Goggins
can like selling that book.
Right.
So for years and years he, he just like would speak and
market and go on social and talk about that book and sell
that book and go do interviews.
And he sold five, I mean the la this is an old number, but
it was in 5 million plus, you mean by closer to 10 by now.
and because he published with Scribe, you know, he paid us.
A few tens of thousands of dollars to do all of the publishing work,
but he kept all of the rest of that upside on millions of copies.
So he's gotta be one of the highest earning authors of all time.
He's out earning many authors who are actually traditionally
published, but even sold more books just because of how he went
about it and the risk that he took initially to get his full upside.
Wow.
Okay.
That's cool.
And thanks for breaking down all the different elements
of like ROI of a publish, you know, a published author,
Yeah.
So, so I should say like, scribe's model is like the opposite
of traditional publishing in that we don't offer advances.
We actually just charge a clear, fixed flat rate for the work that
a traditional publisher will do.
So you bring a manuscript to us.
we'll copy edit it.
We'll proofread it, we'll do cover design.
We'll do page layout.
We'll do illustrations.
We'll design all the final files the way you want.
We'll help you get uploaded for distribution and launched,
and then you make all the final creative decisions.
You keep all your rights and you keep all your royalties.
It's, which is for one, for people like me and Goggins who
are gonna go sell a lot of books.
That's a huge ROI on the royalties 'cause we're earning
two to four times as much as a traditionally published author
would on a per book basis.
But the more important thing is actually that there are thousands,
millions of authors that would, a traditional publisher would never
even consider because they'll only sell a thousand books or 10,000
books and they're trying to find people that'll sell a hundred
thousand books or at minimum 50,000.
Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense for them to take
the risk and do the work.
But I talk to authors every single day who wanna write a
book for their own reasons, just to impact the social issue.
Or they want to take the they, they want to get their message out there.
They want to claim like they wanna increase their credibility.
They want to tell their story, they want to give back to their industry.
They want to, Really connect deeply with their clients
or their potential clients.
And they may, you know, there's people that'll
only sell a thousand books.
They, they may give away a thousand books,
Exactly
but they'll get $10 million in business to their core business
or raise a hundreds of millions of dollars as a result of having that
book out there and getting it into the right hands and building trust
on a very deep level through the means of this like very important
timeless medium that is just really difficult to fake, like.
It really, you can't,
yeah, if you, you write a great book, like you probably know what
you're talking about, you know?
It's still more important.
Like I, I love your thoughts on this because you know, you have AI
and everybody feels like, you know, information's at my fingertips.
I could be, you know, knowledgeable in seconds on
whatever topic I, I want.
Or I can look up this person's book and get the summary of everything.
And the answer I would say is yes to that.
But the value of a book, like, I would love to hear it even more
from you going down this vein of.
You know, the ROI are the reasons why people would publish.
It's, it's kinda what you're stating here.
It's like you can make it your own on the front end, but there what
a business model should be defined on the back end, I would imagine.
And yeah.
Any thoughts on that or how scribe kinda steers people do that process?
Yeah, I mean, we like we talk to everybody.
We try to get an idea of what the context is that they're
publishing this book into.
So there are people who come in and say, I truly just
want to impact this issue.
And if I, you know, like one, author that I remember is, the
issue that they wanted to impact.
They're, they're retired.
They did it very well for themselves, and they're like, I
am dedicating years of my life and a large amount of money
to impacting gay teen suicide, and if I can save one life.
This will be worth it.
And I do not care about anything else.
I don't care if I sell like copies.
I don't care if I give 'em away.
I don't care like what it costs.
Like if I, as soon as I reach that threshold, I'm great.
I will keep reaching for two and three and four and a hundred.
But like, that's my, my measure of success.
And no traditional publisher is gonna care about that.
like that's a big risk to take.
But if that's important to you, and I think that book could
be good for the world who's, who's not gonna support that.
but mo most importantly, like if you just have a vision like
that, we will help you do it.
But different example, along similar lines is like, Paul Franco wrote a
book called, Successful Successions.
And it's a very, very targeted, and we, we often coach authors to do
this, like uncomfortably targeted.
So his book is for, Certified financial planners who own
their own firm, who are retiring within the next five years
Okay.
and they don't know, and they're like not sure how to transition.
They're not sure what a good transition looks like.
They're not sure what their options are.
And Paul's business is to buy those trans, the firms from people
transitioning out who are like retiring and just ready to be
doing a different chapter and.
So they search for this problem.
They see his book.
Amazon is a very underrated as a search engine.
so they search for it, they find it, they buy it, they read
it, and then they pick up the phone and call Paul and try to
see if he'll buy their firm.
'cause they like how he thinks and they trust him.
And they just had this experience of like understanding his
philosophy and his expertise.
And you know, as far as marketing goes, like you just
made, you know, four bucks.
To spend 10 hours with this client in this very high leverage way
that now they pick up the phone and call you and ask you to buy it.
It's not, there's no other,
Hmm.
show me another marketing channel that like makes you money,
builds trust at a deep level and creates like high intent inbound
Absolutely.
And I see it.
yeah, I'm partnered with, one of my partners is Mike ings here in San
Diego, and we, yeah, I'm, I'm one of the, the fractional, AI officers.
We consult ton of businesses, but you know, this program we do on
the back end, it's high level, you know, almost $10,000 thing,
but it's all driven by the book on the front end, and we see
where all the leads are coming.
It's all from the book.
And everyone I talked to.
Yep.
Read the book and like not even all the way through
and invested or needed.
I knew I needed you guys.
I'm like, there it is.
it's incredible.
It's so difficult to create that level of trust, and there's
so few mediums that can do it, and if you're out there like
dropping a bunch of paid ads.
It's that, you know, back goes back to that level of trust, like
when you were asking to be trusted instead of just doing something
and letting yourself be evaluated, as high, trustworthy or not.
it is just a very different, it's a very different kind of climb.
yeah,
yeah, it's, it's interesting.
I'm glad to hear you having a similar experience.
Absolutely man.
And there's, and yeah, I'm not gonna say, you know, paid ads
are evil or anything, but I think the big thing is, like you
said, like be in a place where people are looking for you.
Amazon, you know, don't gloss this over.
I know you didn't, but like for anybody who might've missed
it, Amazon is a search engine.
I don't know where they rank with everything, but
it ain't going anywhere.
And they're.
Apps, you know, integrated now with even, you have all the AI
stuff, you know, like they'll point there as a source too.
Like there's so being there, you need a book or some kind of product,
but yeah, why not give 'em the book?
Yeah, it's, it's, it is an incredible thing and, and the fact
that you need to have written a book to get a search engine results
page on Amazon is a very high bar.
There's, there's authors with us who are selling software
like B2B SaaS software, like big contracts through a book.
and because they're some of the only ones with a book out there about
it, and we work with it quite a few.
Organizations actually like publish a book as their organization or
have a systematic thing where like one of their executives publishes
a book every year that helps sort of build their mind, share each
in different ways That attracts, sometimes it's to attract employees
or partners or customers or investors, like whatever it is.
It's a very, you know, because it's not a traditional marketing channel,
I actually think it becomes really
Yeah.
I think so, man.
Well, with, and I want to go to go to ai 'cause I, you know,
it's obviously a hot topic.
It's only getting more hot by the minute, it seems
like when everything's getting cheaper, faster, you
know, tools for everybody.
of course you could write a book very quickly with ai, but I. I
wouldn't say it's all about speed.
You can write an effective book as well.
Like I'll, I'll say an example.
I'm an advisor of a company, called delphi.ai, and one of the
use cases, lesser known, is you can write a really solid book or
at least start the process because it's all based off your knowledge.
Like this digital mind,
we trump it.
So you can like literally pull in quotes and all that stuff from like
this podcast, I can make a book.
And that's actually the plan.
It's like, why not?
It's almost like a Tim Ferris's tribe of mentors
kinda style, you know?
But like how would you, I guess my question would be like,
how do you guys have people use AI or some tools to kind
of get that manuscript, the initial draft out of them?
'cause I know that's the biggest hurdle for most people.
Yeah, I mean the, the advance in transcription tools has been
huge over the past few years, which helps a lot because a
big part of our method, is actually interviewing people
and writing the book for them.
Like there's a lot of people have, you know, writer's
block is a real thing.
Talkers block is not a thing.
true.
Yeah.
so if you're sitting, if like part of our, you know, our, our scribes
that we, that our people sort of create a partner in writing their
book are not just great writers and not just thoughtful about
structuring the book, but really great, great engaging interviewers.
And so they'll really work with you to position this and outline
it and understand what you wanna accomplish, and then they'll.
it'll feel like a friendly conversation.
They just pull the information, the stories, the important principles,
the the key quotes out of you.
And that's the process for running into the book.
our, we are always like experimenting with ai.
It is still, I, I think it'll.
The end result will be to make the great people more prolific.
and there are things that it speeds up, but not, it's still not great
for like long form pros generation.
It just doesn't quite have the, like, the touch yet, that you want.
And so it, there are advantages to it, but it's just, it's
sort of a different trade off of like you spend more time
editing because you can't.
The first draft is a little further off.
and the, especially when you're trying to build a very long,
very thoughtful like thread of continuous ideas, it's much
easier for it to lose the threat.
And it's much harder to find when the threat is lost.
So you just have to, like, if you did AI generation, you have
to spend a little more time in editing and be a little more
concerned about the structure and the linearity of the thoughts.
But I think to your point, like depending on the kind of book that
you wanna write, if what you wanna write is a very disjointed tribe
of mentors thing where you're just like, here's an episode,
condense it down, plug it in.
I think those will be very commoditized relatively quickly.
I. Not that that makes it a bad format.
It could still be a great format, but like AI will unlock that one
sooner than a novel, for example.
but we, I've seen really good, like, it's just a great sounding board.
I mean, it's a tireless, tireless sounding board and,
proofreader and editor and it could just be a really good way.
actually I did a great, One of my very smartest friends about AI and
usage in general is, Sean Devine.
And, I had him on, I had him on my podcast, smart
Friends, and he was like, this was a year and a half ago.
And he's like, it's comp AI has completely changed how I hire.
I now hire for, two traits, which is like curiosity and endurance.
Hmm.
Yep.
Like the, the, the, I could be, I could be, misquoting that, but like
endurance or something very like it.
He's like, this is the most important thing.
Like you now have not just a bicycle for the mind, but like a nuclear
reactor for the mind, but it only really operates as long as you do.
Like, you have to keep the, you have to keep hitting
the ball back because it, it will iterate instantly.
And so if you're not re like feeding it something.
If you're not reacting to it, if you're not, continuing
to push and refine it, then like it stops working.
And so, you know, can you put in a 12 hour day with like a relentless
volley partner who's just like hitting the ball back instantly?
It's like playing speed playing, right?
Yeah.
It's like playing chess against the computer.
Like it moves instantly and you're like.
Fuck.
I need to think.
Yeah.
so, you know, that, but for all work is like a really
interesting psychological shift and knowing that, you know,
this is another one that Sean mentioned that's counterintuitive,
but like options are free.
I. When we're working with a human, we're used to being
like, gimme three good options.
And I'll pick one because saying, gimme a hundred good options, and
I'll pick one would be psychotic.
Mm-hmm.
and so, so like, but with AI you can say, gimme a
hundred, gimme a thousand.
I hate all of those.
Gimme 2000 more like, okay, now rank order them.
Now throw away anything like.
It's very, there's some counterintuitive things about it
that, you know, a lot of writers I think are relearning how to write
and with, with new tools and, you know, I like, I very much love my
job and I love talking to authors all day, but I've also like, shit, I
wish I could just, I block off some time and really like wrap my head
around working with these tools.
Oh, I bet, man.
I mean, it's a, it's a monumental task and it's, it's good that,
yeah, I position at least myself in a way that I can monetize that
and be the source of that truth.
but yeah, man, I mean, it's, it's changing and the thing I always just
say is like, just get your hands on something that you can stick with
and really understand and grasp and, and like you said, be curious.
You can keep going down the rabbit hole.
yeah.
I mean, I'll, I'll just plug this here.
I know at timely, you know, deep seek is, is like making
all the, the world news it seems like, but perplexity is
like my go-to research tool.
But when you hook the two together, which you can now,
it's like insane amount of real time searching plus reasoning.
And it's, it's talk about like deep research in seconds
very cool.
Try that out.
Yeah,
All right.
it's, it's pretty sweet.
But, how about like Naval?
I wanna, I wanna bring out some philosophy, like some
things that have impacted you through, especially through
this journey of, you know, becoming the CEO of Scribe Media.
What, 18 months ago?
And like, one of the quotes that Naval just sticks out to me
is that happiness is a choice.
And I, I genuinely believe that's true and that's
kind of, I don't know.
Some people feel like happiness shouldn't be the thing that
you strive for, but it's like, why the hell not?
Yeah.
I don't know what else is there?
And, and yeah.
So how does maybe that quote or something like that from
Naval helped you through?
I'm sure like burning it out throughout the nights,
you know, figuring it just the stressful times.
Yeah, I think, You know, choice is almost, he has said it's a choice.
He has also said it's a skill.
And I think like skill is actually a more useful frame because you don't,
when you hear happiness is a choice, it's almost, it almost makes you
feel guilty, you know, or something.
It's like,
Yeah.
just choose to be happy, dumbass.
Like, what's wrong with you?
Don't, you know, there's a switch you can just flip.
And like, while that.
Like, wow, that's probably true.
You have to do some work to build that switch, right?
or remember that it's there or you know, have it
in arm's reach, you know?
So I think the skill framing.
Reminds you that it'll take time to get better at, and that you
should expect to have to work at getting better at every day.
But it also, you know, it will yield to effort and intention.
And if you work on becoming happier, you can become happier.
I also remember, I've been following the ball for long enough to know
that like he wasn't always happy and he didn't always focus on happiness.
He didn't always value happiness.
and so saying that it's a, you know, a, a choice is
not to imply that it's easy.
but that you, but that it is.
Something that you can control with effort over time.
and it's funny, you know, he's, I think he spent a long time
being unhappy while getting rich and then got rich and is like,
Hmm, that didn't make me happy.
maybe that's a different quest.
And so like, I think not that many people.
That, you know, I know some really happy people.
I know some really rich people.
I know very few, like very happy and very rich people, especially,
you know, Naval who went on the quest to become both of those.
It's not like he was born happy and happened to become rich.
It's not like he was born rich and happens to be happy, like he
started without either of them and deliberately built both.
And so this book is very much like.
Here are the principles and the tactics and the mindset
that he used to go from, you know, not that, to that.
And, you know, he, he's got an interest.
Like, his description of this is like, if you wanna know how to lose
weight, you don't go ask somebody who's been skinny their whole life.
They're not even gonna know what you're talking about.
Like, you, you don't find somebody who was, you know, got up to
600 pounds and then got back down to, you know, 1 50, 1 60.
Like that person knows what they're talking about.
'cause they've been on both sides and they've had to
fight the fight to get.
You know, to, to overcome the thing a bigger, they, they beat a bigger
dragon than you're trying to beat.
And like that's the person who can teach you.
and so I think, you know, when you're filtering for people to
read, people to emulate heroes, you know, there's a lot of people,
talk in a game that, they learn from somebody else, not firsthand.
And that's just a different, you know, there's a different level
of knowledge that comes with that.
that's a good frame.
Yeah.
And.
Yeah, that, and I know Naval, you're absolutely right.
Like it, it's cool to see that progression.
And I know you outlined that a ton in, in the book.
Like is there something that you, either from the Almanac
or, or just studying naval, that keeps you grounded?
Like is there a tactic that you go to often?
I, there's a lot on the happiness side.
There's a lot of little ones that just became habits, that, that
I think he, I mean, he's such a good distiller and he comes
up these sticky little phrases.
And so, some of these seem very small, but if you do them every day,
if you do them multiple times a day,
It does, I think, meaningfully change your, like, base
level of happiness.
And so, two in particular, there's one that, you know, I drink coffee
every morning and he's got one that says like, if you can't be
happy with a cup of coffee, you won't be happy with a yacht.
I
Which is, which is a beautiful encapsulation of everything
that you need to know about, like learning to appreciate
the things that you have and.
Take it.
That reminds me, and I think about it on my first cup of
coffee every single day and just like take a second with the
steamy mug before your first sip.
And you're just like, this little thing is a fucking miracle that
I can just really appreciate.
And if I can't learn to appreciate this, there's no point in
striving for anything else.
So like practice appreciation with this thing in this moment, this
humble thing, and let that be like a moment that is complete of itself.
It's like very mindfulness.
It's like that moment of zen that that you just
carved out for yourself, you
Yeah.
And, and you can, I think he had another one about a toothbrush.
that's like whenever he is brushing his teeth, like he, he uses
that as a moment to just like, concentrate on the feeling, like
how good the toothbrush feels.
Like don't look at your phone.
Don't think about the tasks that you're supposed to be
doing, like, or could be doing.
Like, just be very present.
and having those triggers that are things that will
happen to you all the time.
And another one is, when you feel the sun on your
skin, look up and smile
Hmm.
and just like tiny thing.
I mean, you live in San Diego, so you'll, you'll have
to stop doing that at some point and go get some shit.
Go get some stuff done.
Yeah.
don't stare right at it.
Important,
Yeah, Huberman sets to stare at it, but it's gotta
be low on the horizon.
I know we're all doing that these days.
But yeah, just little, little things that stick with you.
so yeah, I, some of those are, have worked their
way into my daily life and
that I, I really appreciate.
yeah, thanks for Sha.
Is there one that hasn't worked?
Like, or one that you just like, all right, Naval, that sounded really
good, but it's fucking useless.
one, one that I'm still struggling to implement, that I think Naval
is probably better at than me is, is just like, He's got a
very, it's almost a Buddhist, approach of the, like, only the
individual ascends or transcends.
And that it is a pretty hard line on like, you're
not responsible for other people's feelings or happiness.
and that's just a really difficult thing in practice
day to day, you know,
Yeah.
you've got people you love around you all the time and you
care about how they feel and how their experience is going.
And, and I'm not actually sure that it's like ideal.
To totally separate, you know, it is not ideal for your relationships.
It might be, you know, if you want to go become a monk and like take
complete, perfect accountability for your internal state, and you're
just observe, observing like the objective neurochemicals in your
brain and how much dopamine you get, maybe, yeah, it is optimal to like.
Totally separate from all relationships, but that's at least
not the way I want to live my life.
And so there's a lot of times when, you know, that is just
a, a messy area of trade-offs, I think, around relationships.
And when you, when you do choose to take on other people's emotional
states to show empathy and work through something together and,
you know, or, or share, you know, share pain, share experiences,
And not jump to conclusions too quickly or try to solve
it for someone else, or maybe even yourself sometimes, you
know, just like let it simmer.
Something usually connects for, for
yeah, yeah, and, you know, but he's, he's decades into this
journey, so it's possible that I, that's just a naive take from me.
But, it is, I, that is an extreme.
I think he's got a relatively extreme stance, and it comes
from the philosophies that, you know, that he's right in some
of the extreme, some of the philosophers are extreme by nature.
so I, I don't disagree with it so much as like, have chosen a
different path or at least live a different path in the moment.
And, yeah, we're, we're all, we're all on different paths
at different places, so,
Absolutely, man, different upbringings and all that.
So, you know, gotta keep that in mind.
We're all starting in different places, which is totally fine.
Give yourself a break, everyone, please.
So I, well, that leads me to this thought of like, you've had a,
you've worn a lot of hats and still do, you know, author, curator, I,
I call you an author, obviously.
and, you know, founder, investor, podcaster, you know, and all
these things Now, CEO, like.
I'm thinking of fulfillment, like that's the frame I have here.
So is there like a, a myth, almost like a toxic myth
that you think that you had to unlearn in this process?
You know, for as a C or any of these hats, like has
something come up that you've reframed over that those years?
I want to say I've sort of given up on the concept of done.
Like there is no, there is no finish line really, like any, any
given finish line is arbitrary and,
I, I will always be working on something and just trying to find
good way, high leverage ways to like, make the future better.
and.
That, that work will never be done, and I'll never be
quite satisfied with it.
And that's like I have to learn to, learn to exist in a state of
happiness without anything being like done and complete and at rest.
so, you know, there's another, there's a neval that's like,
happiness is peace and motion and peace is happiness at rest.
mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a
And so learning to become like peaceful and in motion.
At the same time, learn to be happy and satisfied without feeling done
'cause, you will never be done.
is is a constant quest.
and I'm not good at it, but I, I feel lucky to have at
least learned that that's.
Something that I need to get better at.
and try to, you know, refocus on and just, you know, live in that space.
And some of the people that I admire the most are
really, really good at that.
You know, they even under high stress, you know, heavy fire, they
can be peaceful and productive.
And I think that's the mindset to have to stay in the game for
a really long time, which is what you need to do if you're gonna
have great compounding results and great relationships And,
You know, easier said than done, especially when you hold yourself
to high standards and you care a lot about, you know, what you're
doing and who you're doing it with.
But, that's, that's a goal.
That's a focus.
I love it, man.
I kind of want to end it right there 'cause that's, it's impactful.
Thanks for sharing.
Definition of done.
Yeah.
What is that?
Yeah.
Make, yeah.
So thanks for, thanks for sharing, man.
And yeah, who, I guess a couple things, like who are
you following closely now?
Obviously Naval, Balaji.
I think you have something with Musk coming up here, right?
Yeah, I'm working on Elon Musk, very like, tough to pit
down, but I'm very focused.
I'm, I'm focused on the like.
First few decades of building that he did, and like what
makes his mindset and his approach really unique in the,
the scale of problems that he tackles and how the intensity
with which he tackles them.
I think there's something for all entrepreneurs to learn in that.
And so that's really the book that's coming together, this year.
Yeah, I'm, I'm excited about it.
I hope that it'll, I hope it's helpful.
I hope it helps, you know, birth another, a generation
of a thousand Musks and, you know, usher in a golden age in
the next industrial revolution.
That's the, that's my humble hope for this book.
Nice.
I love it.
Yeah.
yeah,
yeah.
I, I follow, I, I think, Casey, er is, is a little more technical
than like naval or Musk.
but I think he's an incredible talent, un
underrated, under followed,
Very, very much in the tech world, but like brilliant.
brilliant guy.
I don't follow 'em, so that's great though.
Add 'em to the list.
Yeah.
Hi.
Highly recommended.
Cool.
Awesome, man.
Well, Eric, dude, this has been a pleasure and thanks
for being so open, honest.
I know you are.
And first time we chatted, but like yeah, we, we went there.
So
Cool.
Of course.
Tha thank you for having me.
This is, very fun.
Yeah.
In scribe media.com, is that the best place?
Or where else should they find Scribe and then also find you
Yeah, if you, if you're thinking about a book, if you think a book
can help build your business, if you've got a, a strain
notes app full of book ideas,
or Otter
Yeah.
Perfect.
Yeah.
so come, come just chat with us.
and we're happy to like, take you through that, scribe media.com.
Just get a, a consult with somebody on the team and, yeah,
all my personal stuff is at ejorgenson.com and I'm on Twitter
X all the time, at Eric Jorgenson.
So happy to, to DM or, you know, get you on the newsletter and
Yeah.
whatever el whatever else you're interested in.
Go check it out, the podcast and everything.
We will link everything, show notes, description, make it easy for you.
So Eric, thank you my man.
Mm-hmm.
Appreciate you.