Welcome to another episode of The Genius Podcast.

My name is Karen Doyle, your host and founder of The Genius Project, an

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YouTube channel on this week's episode of The Genius podcast.

I'm talking to a very beautiful person who I met many years ago,

I think back in 2006, possibly.

It's a very beautiful Corrine Linzel.

Now, Corinne is going to share a little bit about her story, how she

was able to navigate trauma and loss.

And sometimes it's really hard to know how to get through these experiences.

And the book she's written, learn to Fly, is really this companion.

It's a book that gives permission to people to feel their grief and

then to give them some goalposts and navigate complex grief and trauma.

So I hope and pray that this episode is a blessing to you.

Well, Corinne, welcome to the Genius Podcast.

It's lovely to have you joining us today.

You're based in Sydney, so we're not too far away from each

other, but great to have you.

Thank you.

Thanks, Karen.

Really nice to be here.

Well, you and I go back quite a long way.

I am trying, I was actually trying to think when we first connected, and

I think you might have been a youth minister or something in a parish.

Is that when we first connected?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was, I think it was in the lead up to Sydney World Youth Day.

Okay, so that's 2007, 2008.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so it was, yeah, it was, um, I think he came and done

it, like did a talk around.

Oh, I, I can't even remember.

Think it's own relationships I think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Theology the body stuff.

Yeah.

Yes.

Mm, that's right.

So, and then we've sort of woven in and outta each other's lives.

It was before your children, I even think it was.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

So we had Olivia in August of 2007, so it must have been okay.

It was prior to that cuz I wasn't pregnant.

Yeah.

So it could have even been oh six.

Yeah.

Bit of history there.

Yeah, just a little.

Yeah.

Well, it's so nice to see your face and, and you're such a beautiful person.

And my life's been blessed, um, just by the conversations,

interactions we've had over the years.

And I know everyone who meets you comes away feeling that from your presence.

But before we dive into today, I'm wondering if you can share a

little bit about your background.

Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Yeah.

Um, I'm, I grew up in the Sutherland Shire in Sydney, and, um, a very

devoted granola Sharks fan, I must say.

Um, I now live in Penrith, which is like, I, I don't think anyone saw that coming,

that I'd leave the Shire, but yeah.

No, Sydney, um, Yeah.

And um, yeah, I went through school, I went through up to year 12.

I did a degree in social work and um, and then later on I've done a master's in, uh,

social change and community development.

Yeah.

But my whole working life has been around what I dub the helping profession.

And um, so I started working in disability support work when I was in year 12.

And, um, that kind of led me to a, to a very interesting

path and took me overseas.

I did a, um, a stint at a summer camp for special needs kids and

the New Jersey Foster kids over in the States, and it was the hardest

work that I think I've ever done.

Why was that?

Because I think what I saw in that, I think it was.

The foster ki the foster system over in New Jersey at that time was

incredibly broken and, um, very unfair.

And, um, we had kids who, they were siblings and they wouldn't see each

other throughout the year because they.

Fostered elsewhere.

And then they'd have various difficult relationships with their siblings at

camp because they knew that if they got close they have to separate again.

So it was just constant heartbreak and constantly seeing, you know, this pain.

But it were the, it was these young people that really stayed with me, even though I

was there with the skillset that I had for the special needs and the disabilities.

Um, it was the foster kids that stayed with my heart and I knew coming from

that I needed to get into youth work.

Okay.

And so that, um, yeah, so I, I did some studies, some, um, Just

some basic studies around youth, youth work and what have you.

And I ended up becoming a youth minister for 10 years, um, in my local parish.

And, um, really looked at that a little bit holistically as well.

And it was at the time that youth ministry wasn't even a thing.

In parishes in, in Australia.

And so there were probably three of us in Sydney and you know, we

connected quite, quite well and we knew each other very well and we

supported each other because we were developing this ministry model really.

And um, yeah, so I was, I did that for a decade and then, um, Worked in various

areas in social work, um, as well.

And probably one of the most insightful jobs that I had done, which molded my,

uh, I guess the church work and the social work stuff was a role that I had with the

National Council of Churches in Australia.

Around their safe church program.

And that was auditing, um, safeguarding training in

different Christian denominations.

And it was in the time of the Royal Commission into institutionalized, um,

abuse, and it was incredibly eyeopening.

But what I saw was, um, a sheer determination to be doing the right

thing and to be, you know, going forward and moving forward, um, in

some progressive and reforming ways.

So that was, that was really eyeopening.

But yeah, and I landed a role, um, almost 10 years ago now in

Vinny's, where I am still today.

And I've had various different roles.

Within Vinnie's, but yeah, I'm, I'm still, it's, it's definitely

been my, um, employment of choice for the last 10 years.

Um, so yeah, so I've gone from casework to, um, to management and now I'm in

what I like to call organizational leadership and where my role is

the mission and pastoral care.

Partner for the Samin Topo Society, and this is about kind of bringing

the purpose of the organization through the organization.

Fantastic.

So embedding that with staff and volunteers and Yes.

Um, yeah, it's, it's taken me into various different avenues and, um, such a journey.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's interesting, looking all the way back to your experience in New

Jersey, those seeds of just what you were going to do with your life have

been consistent, even though what you've done has looked a little bit different.

Yeah.

And that's true.

And that's what attracted me to social work, to be honest,

because it was such a broad.

Qualification that you could go in so many different ways.

That's right.

You know, you could go down the health road, you could go down the

government road, the not-for-profit.

Yes.

Homelessness, counseling, all sorts of things.

So yeah.

Yeah.

Gives you that variety.

I was a bit the same with nursing.

It was general, but yeah.

Could sort of choose different areas.

That's it.

Yeah.

That's fantastic.

Well, interestingly, recently, and this is sort of why I.

Invited you on the podcast is you've published your first book.

Yes.

Um, and I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about that because

you have this background in social work, but you also have your lived

personal experience, which I guess has brought you to a place of writing

this book to be a gift to others.

Um, you went through a great tragedy, you and your family mm-hmm.

Some years ago now, and Yeah.

And that journey, I, I guess I connected with you I think a couple,

maybe a year after that happened, and we've had a few conversations.

So when I saw that you published a book, I, I just feel so proud of you.

I just wanna say huge congratulations because it is such a gift and we haven't

even talked about what it's about yet.

No.

But I will let you share your story.

Um, the book is Learned to Fly and it's just looking at complex grief and helping.

Adults navigate that journey, but would you share a little bit about,

I guess, your own journey and what led you to writing that book?

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, and I think thank you for, for your words about the book as well

because it really is something that I'm incredibly proud of too.

Um, it's the most significant thing that I've done in, in my life to

date, and I think it is the most significant thing that I've done

because of the sentiment behind it.

And, um, and also what, what I've been, what I've been able

to see happen with it so far.

And so I launched Learn to Fly this year and, um, it was actually, it took me

probably a couple of months to write it.

Which is bizarre in the writing world, but, um, it took over two

years for it to come together.

Okay.

So I had the book written and, um, and then the whole process afterwards.

It's a self-published book.

Mm-hmm.

So, um, you know, the illustration journey and then the, um, kind of book

design and getting it all together, it took quite a long time, which.

Was a bit unexpected on my end, but um, I learned a lot.

So the book itself, um, thank you.

As you said, it's called Learn to Fly, and it is a book, um, designed to,

I guess do two things, um, to allow people who are grieving to have, I

guess, an avenue for their grief.

It's a real permission giving book.

Around, um, you know, your grief is your grief, but it's also a book that's

almost like an education for people who might not know the right things

to say or how to be and things like that, which I think we find ourselves,

um, in that position all the time.

And I know I definitely was probably that person before I

had my own personal experience.

Yes.

With grief, you know, you just, you mean well, and you don't know.

You know what you don't know.

So this is one of those books that really does try and, and help both, both

players in the, in the grief journey.

So I guess what led me to write the book, as you mentioned, that

our family had suffered some.

Incredibly traumatic loss with, um, the loss of my brother.

So my brother was 39 years old.

My brother was 39 years old, and he, um, was in a relationship with his partner.

It was on again and off again and, um, yeah, he was murdered by her.

And, um, that just.

Kind of spiraled into the most traumatic experience that we have ever gone

through as a family and as individuals.

And, um, he, his house was set on fire and his house was actually, um, on the

same property as my parents' place.

So they saw it all unfold.

And so their, their grief is, Yeah, their trauma, I should

say, is really horrendous.

And, um, you know, we ended up going through a, a homicide investigation and

that was, that was tumultuous and that was, you know, just a horrific in itself.

And that process itself and the, the, the legal system, you know,

we, Jeffrey died in 2017 in October.

And our murder trial wasn't until February, 2022.

Wow.

Sorry.

2020.

2020.

And so that just goes to show that length of time that it takes, and it

took them eight months to arrest her.

And that was really, really difficult for us because, uh, we obviously

didn't know what she was capable of.

And so we were incredibly scared for our own lives.

And, um, you know, what, what might have happened next, but we, um, yeah, we, in

the end, she, she spent four months in prison and then she was released on bail.

And then that again, kind of shook us quite a lot and it took us right

up to January of 2020 when we were preparing ourselves to go to trial.

We had a lot of, um, prepping by, um, You know, just, just the legal

people around us, and obviously this, we weren't represented at all.

It's, it, it's definitely not us, um, in the court system.

But, uh, all of us were giving statements in the, in the, in the court case and

there were so many different elements to the legal journey and, um, various

different appearances in court and.

We attended every single court mention and, um, so did a number

of his friends, and it was really, it's one of those things that

you literally mentioned in court.

It's, it's called a mention and you're mentioned the case is mentioned and the.

Whoever's, whoever's kind of dealing with it just escalates it to the next level.

It just has to go through this system.

Yes.

So from local court all the way to the Supreme Court.

And so we went there and all these mates were there each time, and it was just such

a witness of who Jeffrey was to everyone and, and just that great power, but.

Um, yeah.

Came to January, 2020 and we're all breathing down the neck of Covid.

None of us knew because it was, our lockdown was gonna happen.

Our lockdown happened in March.

So our, our, um, trial was scheduled for February, 2020 and, um, What happened

was we had, um, a knock on the door by our detectives and they came to us and

said, look, there's not gonna be a trial.

And we didn't know why.

And, um, at first thought we were thinking, maybe she's pleaded

guilty, um, you know, and it's gonna, it's gonna be settled out

of court or something like that.

And he said, no, actually, um, she was found dead last night.

So she took her own life just before I did realize that part

of the, the story we were, yeah.

So just before we were meant to, um, go to, go to trial.

And what that did for us was added more trauma Absolutely.

To our story and to, and to Jeff's story.

It, it meant we couldn't have our day in court.

Yeah.

It meant justice for Jeff was just so far away once again.

Yeah.

And, um, how do you unpack.

How do you unpack that again?

Like how do you, how do you make sense of all of this?

And the biggest take home for me from that is she once again,

took control of the outcome and we just felt so incredibly lost.

And it was just one of these things of like, well, well now what

we've, we've got all this energy to build up for justice for, for

my brother, and where does that go?

What, what, what, what's gonna happen with that?

So, It has been incredibly complex, incredibly layered, incredibly traumatic,

and um, I, I personally have separated two things in my brain and I don't know how

it happened, but I have lost my brother.

That's one thing, and our family has gone through a homicide and I haven't

combined the two, and I'm sure I will one day, but I just think that's too painful.

Yes.

So somehow my brain has split them and so I can talk to both very differently.

I can talk about the loss of my brother and the grief of, of losing

my brother, and I can also talk about.

The events that happened that night and, and everything that

happened after that as well.

So yeah, it's, um, it's, it's, um, it's a, it's definitely been a very

hard journey and it's something that, um, I guess I have, you don't

know how you're gonna deal with it.

It's the worst possible.

Thing to go through.

Absolutely.

And it's um, it's one of the most heinous things to have happened and people

around you also dunno how to deal with it either and, and dunno how to be.

So that's, that's pretty much how the book came to be because it, it

really was a matter of, um, in the midst of the pain that I was in.

There were a lot of people who wanted to help and wanted to say the right things,

and sometimes they just said the wrong things, the missed really dumb things,

and you're just like, oh, and it hurts.

And you just, I had this mantra of they mean well, they mean well, they mean well.

Because you have to protect yourself.

And you, you are, you're going, everything's different.

Everything's slower, everything's, um, Everything's changed, and for me,

it's, for me, I, I definitely felt a fundamental shift in me because

everything that I identified as being a social worker, being a Christian,

being a sister, being a daughter, all of that had to be redefined for me.

I had to really, really assess if I still wanted to be in social work and

this sort of work, considering the complexities of now that I'm dealing with

my own trauma and how that came to be.

Mm-hmm.

And knowing everything I know about domestic violence and the.

The narrative around domestic violence being around violence against women.

But what about male victims and female perpetrators?

Yes.

And just all of that.

So it was a very, very confusing time.

And whilst my, I've got two brothers, so Jeffrey is, is the one who passed

away, and Nathan, my other brother.

So I'm still a sister.

But it, it just had to shift.

Yes.

And that relationship and those relationships had to shift.

And just being a daughter, like I had to.

Almost care for my parents become carer.

Yeah.

And being the youngest and, um, kind of having that responsibility, you know,

of, and it wasn't, it wasn't put on me, but it just, it evolved to be that.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yes.

And so, yeah, so everything and just, just concepts of, um, you

know, of my faith just was shattered.

Shattered in an instance.

In an instant, and you just go like, wow, this is one event

that has changed my whole life.

Um, and this is gonna be a long journey.

Yeah.

A long, long journey.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Well, Corrine, firstly, I just want, I mean, I have said this to you, but so

sorry for your loss and what you've had to go through, because I've known you

before and, and I touch base with you during and, and now again, and mm-hmm.

It's, it's not, it never goes away, does it?

It's constantly there, and as you said, it totally shifts the

trajectory of your own life and the roles that you play in identity.

And, and, and we can have a loss, like we can have a person in our life, whether

it's a grandparent or someone passed away.

But like what you're saying here is there's just this layer upon layer upon

layer of grief and this compounding.

Impact of grief, um, but not only grief, but the trauma as well.

Yeah.

In so many different areas.

And I think it's, it's even traumatic.

Just not just, but the whole shifting in roles within family,

that's a trauma in itself.

Yeah.

So there's all, there's a, the big and the obvious trauma of the way in

which your brother passed away, but there's all those other ones and.

And I guess in terms of writing this book, you're really trying to

help people navigate that journey.

And just hats off to you because you know, I've worked with lots of people over the

years and it doesn't mean that you've got it all worked out or that you're over it.

Cause I don't believe anyone ever gets over something like this.

But the way in which you've been able to offer that, and I guess channel

that grief, To be a gift for others.

So that grief and that suffering is not wasted, I guess.

Mm-hmm.

Is what I'm saying.

It's, it's, it's a bizarre kind of thing, isn't it?

And it's hard to put words on, but I know that many people will be blessed through

your writing, and I'm interested in.

Just that concept of complex grief because whether it, it's not necessarily a death.

It could be a divorce.

Mm-hmm.

It could be financial loss.

Lots of people face complex griefs, and I think they don't actually put

language to it that that's actually what's happening and that makes the

experience all the more overwhelming.

Yeah.

I've heard people say, oh, well, it's not like I've lost anybody.

Or it's not like, uh, you know, this has happened or I've been

to war and now I have p t d.

We, we don't really validate.

And I think you mentioned the word permission giving book.

Mm-hmm.

That we need to give people permission to actually, their

experience is their experience.

Yeah.

And that those feelings and that experience needs to be

validated and then navigated.

Can you speak into, I guess, that idea of.

Trauma coming from lots of different things and the compounding impact of that.

Yeah, and I think what it, I think you're right, it is compounding

and what makes it complex, I think is the ties to our identity.

Yeah.

And that's where, um, you know, where you can really become all tangled

up or, um, you know, you become a bit undone and things like that.

But I guess it's where you are not.

Where it's unseen, you know, where it, it might be, um, Where somebody has

had and, and, and will take, will take death for, for an example where somebody

has had an illness and you've had that ability to prepare for something.

Yes.

And you know, and it's almost a release and, um, going okay.

This is, this is a natural, you know, end to that.

And as difficult as grief is in, in those circumstances, when the

loss is sudden or traumatic, um, it adds those complexities to it.

And so this is where we look at where there, where there could be

loss from property around natural disasters and things like that.

Where, and the other element to, I guess, trauma or.

Um, kind of something like an event is often it's very public.

The event.

Yes.

So we had a lot of media around us, like for a long time and, um, coming out

of the woodworks and, and things like that just to get the story and, um, I

remember one time my parents were doing a press conference, a, a media conference

with the police, um, in Parramatta.

So that's like an hour away from where they live.

And by the time they got back there were, um, news channels in their backyard.

Wow.

So not even out the front of their place, but actually on their

property, in their, in their backyard.

And it's very invasive, isn't it?

Yeah.

And what was really difficult about that time is, For three months.

My parents' place was a crime scene and they weren't even

able to live in their own home.

And we, I, I stayed with them.

We, we lived in a, a hotel for three months and just to kind of have that

then invasive space in, in there.

So it's like, It's just the unfairness and the, um, you know, everyone kind of

wants a piece of the story and things like that, and yet you've lost your

person and how to, and, and so, yeah.

So anyway, going back to sometimes, you know, with natural disasters,

it's a very public thing or there's a collective trauma, there's a

community experience, isn't there?

Yeah.

But then it's an individual loss as well.

And so, you know, if people are.

Feeling it more than someone else.

They might feel like they're not allowed to feel what they're feeling

because someone else has got it together better and things like that.

So, you know, and, and you just hear about it when it's say, um,

you know, road trauma as well.

And, um, you know, I, I'm just very reflective at the moment of the bus

crash that happened in the Hunter Valley recently and how public that

was, but that they're going to be, 10 families of private loss there and um,

you know, and then you have really high profile cases where, um, people are.

Very vocal about, you know, oh, they, they're, they're full of forgiveness for

the person who took, took their person.

And then it, then you get, if you are not there, then you get that guilt

of going, oh, well I'm, I'm not a, I'm not, I'm not as good of a human

being if I can't forgive the person who, um, took my brother, basically.

So, you know, it just, it, it really messes with your mind and it really does.

Um, you know, where, where there's that element of.

An event and then, um, people are really interested, um, in all of that.

But I think, um, what people really want, and this is what I've noticed, is

that they want the good news story and they want the bounce back to happen.

Yes.

And for somebody who is grieving, that's almost a burden that's placed on them.

And, um, And I think what needs to happen more in our society is we need

to allow people to take as long as they need to, to be in their grief and grief.

Um, I mean, we've got grief theories.

We've got the Kubler Ross theory of the stages of grieving.

And interestingly, that was never really.

Um, a process for people who have lost someone.

It was designed originally for people who were dealing with their own

illness and their own imminent death.

Yes.

And it's become whatever it's become the model.

Model.

Yeah.

And, and we've kind of allowed that to be the socially acceptable way to deal with,

with grief and kind of put parameters around, well, you should be here,

or, you know, all this sort of stuff.

And.

And that's where, you know, we get words like closure.

And, um, you know, time heals or wounds and things like

that, which is so unhelpful.

Yes, so unhelpful.

So, yeah, no, it's true.

I, I worked for many years at, um, in a main hospital in Sydney

doing oncology palliative care.

Right.

So I did a lot of that palliative care, grief counseling with families

there and, and Coler Ross was a big model, but I would agree with you.

That doesn't necessarily translate into other areas.

So.

That's right.

It's.

That that doesn't exist.

And, and it has no, it has no value.

It definitely does.

But there's some really incredible grief theories out there.

And there's some really, um, I'm gonna go back to the word, but permission giving

theories, um, that allow people to, to stay connected with their loved ones.

And there's a really beautiful one that I think, um, as Catholics, we.

Can probably intrinsically understand, which is continued bonds.

Yeah.

And just continuing that, that relationship can exist and

it's, it's a new relationship and that, that was new to me.

Um, my relationship with my brother Jeffrey has changed in his death.

Than what it was when he was alive.

Like it's very, it's a very, very different relationship.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, you know, I, I don't think I would, I know that I wouldn't have

photos of my brother in my home, you know, for, for, for that sense.

But, you know, or talk to him every day and things like that, but, Yeah,

so continued bonds is something that, um, you know, we, I think we, we

deeply understand because we, we have that, um, modeled to us in our faith.

Yes.

And, um, we, we look at that.

I mean, we just look at.

Say even Jesus and the, the gift of him giving us the Holy Spirit and things like

that in a sense is that continued bond.

Mm-hmm.

And um, also even just our relationships with the saints and things like that.

That's right.

We can have, we, we know that there is this continuation of life and life giving

life beyond this world and um, yeah.

No, that's beautiful.

Corrine, I'd love to, I just hear from you perhaps, what did you learn in this

journey that, I mean obviously that's packaged in your book, but what would be

some of the key things as someone who's walked through grief, um, I guess that

you needed, and, and I ask this question because people listening will either

be going through grief or they'll be supporting someone going through grief.

So there's two different sort of questions there.

There's, what did you need as a grieving person?

And then I guess we can look at what can people do and support people,

because I think you're right that so often people dunno what to say and I

find people tend not to say anything.

And, and I think I don't, my experience has been working with people just

through my nursing is it's much better to say something and perhaps get it

wrong than to not say anything at all or acknowledge the, the loss.

Yeah.

Um, but then there's also, if we are going to say something and support

people, like what is helpful and what is not, and so let's begin with.

Firstly, what did you learn?

What did you need as a person going through grief?

And I ask this because there'll be women listening to this who are

navigating their own loss course.

It might be through marital loss, financial loss, um, mental health.

It might be through death.

What do, what do we need to do to, to get ourselves through those seasons of grief?

Yeah.

Thank you for bringing this up because I think, um, What happens is, uh, thank

you for saying, you know, it's, it's sometimes better to say something and

get it wrong rather than not say anything because it can be very isolating.

And, um, even, even when people say, you know, oh, we just need some space, or

things like that, don't take that as, um, you know, as a way to give distance.

Always, always, always connect with them.

Um, Because I think, and I can only talk from my own experience and, and I've

gotta say writing the book was my process.

Mm-hmm.

It was a hundred percent my process.

There's, there's characters in the book that reflect things

that, that happened to me.

Um, it's, there's, there's nothing kind of made up in the imagination in that sense.

It's all, it's all things that happened and that were said.

And, um, but yeah, I think the, for me, the biggest, um, I guess disappointment

that I had around support was this feeling of being abandoned by those that, um,

I was really hoping would stand by me.

And, um, you know, I, I did, it took me a really long time to work it

out, but I did figure it out later that, you know, it was just a really

hard thing for everyone to navigate.

And, um, people just didn't know what to do and what to say.

So my advice, I guess, well, I guess what I needed was for a sense of love,

just a real sense of you are loved, we've got you, we're here if you need

us, you know, reach out, but we'll keep talking to you like that sort of thing.

Um, I absolutely needed to feel like I was doing the right

thing by staying connected, you know, to Jeff and one of the.

The things that we did as a family was, um, we named a star, um, after

Jeff, or, well, we picked a star and mum picked a star and, um, it was

one particular night and we had this star gazing app so you could find

out what the actual star was called.

Yes.

And so mum picked this, the brighter star that she could see on the night, and.

The Star app told us that it was the star at the location of M 15,

which was super significant because Jeffrey's birthday was, is May 15th.

Oh, wow.

And so we were like, oh, okay.

That's totally Jeffrey.

Yes.

And so, um, and so that, that particular star was part of the constellation.

It's the, it's the nose of the horse of the Constellation.

Pegasus.

Okay.

And so a Pegasus has become, Something really significant to our family.

And um, you know, just the symbolism of it.

And there's, um, spoiler alert, there's a Pegasus on my book.

Oh, very nice.

So there's a Pegasus in my book.

That's right.

Yeah.

There's symbolism.

That's right.

And so every, everything in there is very symbolic.

Um, but also just as I said before, I had this mantra of they mean well,

they mean well, they mean well.

So I think just having this.

Deep understanding that people really do mean well.

They, they're not set out if they're, if they're coming to you at your

time of, of loss, they're, they're coming to you because they do care and

they don't really wanna muck it up.

So even if they say the wrong thing and it's stings, um, it's,

they, they really do mean well.

So it's kind of just taking it.

Uh, with the intention that it, that it's given as opposed That's right.

To what they actually say.

Um, and I think what I, what I said before about that burden of the good

news story or the bounce back and just, you know, don't rush, having to

have it all together and be capable and all of that sort of stuff.

One of the things that was told to me many times, and still to

this, to this day, is, you are so strong and it's like I never knew.

Strength felt so weak because I'm, this is not, this is not what I think strength is.

So, um, it's, it's recognizing what they're seeing in you is this

resilience or this tenacity or something to kind of keep going.

I, I wholeheartedly believe that, for me it was grace.

I dunno how I got through some days.

So some days I was definitely carried some days.

People helped me walk through it.

Um, others, I just don't know.

And so I actually do mention that in the book and talk about

this concept of transcendence.

And that's what I mean is this, this concept of we're being carried.

We don't know how we're getting through, but we are.

So to, to take that pressure off us, to have to bounce

back and, and what have you.

Yeah.

Um, but advice to people, um, helping people go through, like going through

grief is, as I said, just show up.

Um, you know, that's, that's probably a, and everyone's going to be different.

Like some people really like the pragmatic stuff and, you know, having,

having dinner cooked and things like that and bringing a meal over.

Um, but some people just want.

A sense of normal, like I, like, I wanna be invited to, to that party.

I wanna be able to laugh and not feel guilty and, you know, so,

so I don't need to wallow all the time and things like that.

So just always invite, always show up, always do that sort of thing.

Um, I think people are really afraid to mention the loved

one's name around people.

Yeah.

And, um, sometimes that's all they desperately wanna talk about.

Is, is that person and not mentioning their name is not taking away

the fact that that person's gone.

And sometimes just hearing someone say, Jeff, you know, it just goes, oh, he

meant something to someone other than me.

And yeah.

And thank you.

And you know, I, I saw, saw recently a friend of mine, friends of mine

who lost their, their dad recently.

Um, A friend of theirs sent them a photo of their dad that

they had never seen before.

And so they're like, oh, they've got a new image of their dad that they never had.

And for that one person, it was just them sharing a photo.

But to, to these, the sisters here, they were like, oh my gosh, this is my dad.

And you thought about my dad and you thought about me.

And you know, it just made such a difference.

Yeah.

And hence so much so.

Yeah.

And like I, I, I think we hear this one all the time and this is not a new, um,

kind of mind blowing thing to mention, but you know, that first year is.

Not necessarily the only hard year.

And um, you know, I actually find that it's the second year.

That is the harder year.

We always found that people who went through cancer and they went into

remission, even though that first year was a year of treatment, it

was actually the year that they went into remission, it was much harder.

Wow.

And, and I found that sort of walking with people, it's that second year

of grief after that first anniversary because it becomes also permanent.

Yep.

And I think that's what's really challenging as well, that that first

year is made up of funeral and, and if you've got other complexities dealing

with that, for you it was a court case.

Yeah.

And just those layers.

But then once it becomes permanent, I think that's where, but that's

also the time where everybody goes away and goes back to their life.

Absolutely.

There's that loss.

Even though I think people need to understand grief takes a

very long time to walk through.

Yeah.

Even though that first anniversary may have passed that second

year is even more critical.

It is Karen, and I think you're, it's exactly correct.

And I think that first year is, is the first year without the person

and then the second, third, fourth, you know, all that sort of stuff that

permanency is, is the, is the absolute realization that this is now how it is.

Yes.

And that that is never going to change and that is devastating.

And, and so I think for.

If you've got somebody going through grief, or if you know somebody who has

lost someone even a while ago to just be super mindful of the significant dates.

Yes.

So it might be the anniversary, it might be their birthday.

Yes.

It might be something else that, you know.

Um, To just acknowledge it and just, you know, I'm thinking

of you, all that sort of stuff.

Stuff.

I've got a funny story for you.

Not that this is funny, but my father-in-law passed away.

It'll be, it was 13 years ago and his birthday is the 20th of June.

But for some reason on the 10th of June, I got all confused.

I was busy filming a project, so I texted my mother-in-law just thinking and

praying for you today on Paul's birthday.

It's like, anyway, she wrote back and.

And she said, oh, it's not till the 20th.

And I was like, of course I know that.

So the 20th was a couple of days ago.

I was like, hi, just say me again.

Yeah, me again.

But, um, she thought, she goes, thanks for thinking of me.

I said, well, I prayed for you anyway twice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And but even 13 years on, I, I find that.

I transcribe those things each year.

You know, the birthdays or the moments where say a loved one may have gone

into hospital and not come out.

That's it.

Like I really try to acknowledge that in people's life because, They

are because you're reliving it.

Absolutely.

And when everyone else has moved on, yeah.

There is that sense of isolation.

And I think, you know, we are created in relationship for relationship.

This is where we thrive.

This is our purpose.

As human persons like, yes, we, we need that community and.

It's so important to just come around people Yeah.

In whatever they're going through.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, and just, um, I mean there's something incredible that, that

we took from the loss of Jeff, which is, um, when Jeffrey died.

So Jeffrey was, Jeffrey went straight to Royal North Shore Hospital, which

was, it's probably about an hour and 20 minute drive from where we are.

And, um, He spent three days, two and a half days on life support.

And, um, the first doctor who spoke to us, um, when, when we got

there, um, told us that, you know, there's 20% chance of him surviving.

So we, we knew, we knew in, in that moment.

But, um, what, what we were able to do was, um, Look at the, at the aspect

of organ donations and, um, we had the org, the donate life care team

come and talk to us and, and talk to us about what, um, con the consent

that they need from family as well.

And, um, what Jeffrey was able to do with his organs whilst, whilst he passed away.

Um, Was he his, his organs, his heart, and both of his kidneys

were able to be donated and he was able to save three people's lives.

And so therefore, three people were no longer terminal.

Three people now got a second chance at life.

And to me that was that.

In all honesty, that was the only thing that we had that kind of allowed us to.

Make meaning or make sense or something out of this, because I think

when you lose someone or something and you're going through grief is

you try and make meaning from it.

Mm-hmm.

You need answers, you need, you know, or we need meaning to cope with it.

Absolutely.

And so if you can create, um, That, that for you in that sense,

um, you know, you, it, it just can settle some part of the pain.

Yeah.

And so, and so we've, we've got that and that's, um, There's actually at this,

so this book is called Learn to Fly.

Um, it's the, the title actually came before the book.

Okay.

I knew it always gonna be called Learn to Fly.

So it's taken from the song Blackbird From the Beatles.

Yeah.

Um, but there's a little, there's a little blackbird in my book.

Oh, beautiful.

It's.

Not a character in the book, but it is featured three times and that that is

the three people that, um, Jeffrey saved.

And so, like I said, it's, it's my, it's so much my process Yes.

That every single page of that is significant.

Yes.

And um, and yet it's also been a gift to other people and.

It's not even just the people that are in my circle that just

wanted to support the book.

And, um, I do wanna say one thing a, about kind of the overwhelming

nature of what happened with the book.

Yeah.

And that was, um, I did a Kickstarter campaign to, because

I, cuz I've self-published, so I had to somehow fund it myself.

And so I did a Kickstarter and I don't know if you know much about Kickstarter,

but you basically set a target.

And, um, you have like a, um, A timeframe.

And so they recommend to do a timeframe around 30 days.

And, um, so I did that and they, they say that it, it allows you to have

momentum, but it's also not too long that people kind of lose interest.

And so I had this massive, I had a.

Content creator, um, you know, that I, that I had come along and helped

me out and, uh, we had a schedule of all different kind of ways to

get people to, to jump on board the Kickstarter for the 30 days.

We had a, it was, it was pretty sleep anyway.

My Kickstarter was fully funded in eight hours.

Eight hours.

That's amazing.

So what was I gonna do with the rest of the 30 days?

That's incredible.

Yeah.

And so it said straight away to me, it wasn't just, I've got a whole heap

of people who are cheering me on.

It was, yeah, who just like you?

This, this needs to be out there.

Yeah.

And so, Um, so that, that was the kind of the pre-stuff.

And then afterwards, the amount of people that have contacted me after reading it.

And I had one of my friends contact me and said, I bought the book for my

nana because she just lost her husband.

And, um, she has.

Written me a card to give to you.

So next time I see you, I need to give you the card.

Anyway, the card is so beautiful and basically it says that ever since she

got the book, she has read it every single day and like, I don't know

this person at all and, and just, just the impact that it's having.

And one of the things that I really wanted to make sure that came out of

this book, Is that it was a beautiful thing for somebody to pick up.

So it's beautifully illustrated by another wonderful Catholic woman.

She's pretty special Kate on she and, um, so her artwork is delicious.

It's so amazing.

And, um, It is, it is a book for adults and I think some people look at it

and think that it's a children's book because it's an illustrated book.

But that's the point.

Yes.

When I was, when I was, um, in that, those really early days

and those active, um, grief days.

People wanna do things and give you a lot of things.

So I was given a lot of tools.

I was given a lot of books, a lot of books that I still haven't read

to this day, and some books that I would pick up and read the first line

and be like, no, no, not doing that.

Um, but it was the children's books around grief that was so beautiful

and just captivating and just made sense because everything is harder

and everything needs to be more.

Simple.

Yeah.

In those times.

And so I was like, why don't we have this for adults?

And that's really, that's, that's where it's, that's how it's,

that's how it's coming about.

So you've written it for yourself essentially, but it's been a

huge blessing for everybody.

Yeah.

And such a gift.

Corrine.

So look, tell me where can people find, get a copy of this beautiful book.

Yeah, absolutely.

So I do have a website.

It's, uh, learn to fly book.com and, um, On there.

It has a link to all the different places that you can buy it, but you can

look on Amazon and things like that.

It's listed Amazon, internationally, so wherever in the world you want to, um,

buy the book, you can get it from there.

You can.

Fantastic.

Well, I'll put a link in the show notes and really encourage people.

I'm a big believer in having some books because even if we might not go through

this journey ourselves, chances are we will encounter somebody who does.

And, uh, the purpose of our life is to be a gift.

So if we can give somebody something that's helpful, I often have a few

books on my shelf where I buy multiple copies that I just have so I can give

to someone if I meet them and they're going through a difficult time.

So I'll be getting a couple of extra copies of your book, but thank

you so much, cor, for your time.

Thank you for the gift of being so vulnerable with your

story and, and sharing that.

I know that you haven't done that intentionally, it's just

sort of unfolded the way it has.

But as you said, so many people.

I'm just so blessed and it's become such an anchor and a tool for people.

So thank you.

Yeah, not a problem.

Thank you.

Liz, I hope that conversation was insightful.

If you are going through your own grief or you know of someone who is navigating

that season of life, can I invite you to check out Corinne's website?

The book is found on www.learntoflybook.com.

Um, really encourage you to get a copy and just have it on

your bookshelf for people who.

You might meet throughout your life, but you can offer this

book as a beautiful resource too.

Ladies, next week we are starting off a new cohort of the Catholic

Women's Masterclass, and I'd love you to come and check it out.

This masterclass has been such an incredible journey of

transformation for so many women over the last couple of years.

It's really about learning how to develop some rhythms of renewal, going

back to the basics and building your life really intentionally so that

you can flourish and grow into the.

Fullness of who God has created you to be as a woman.

If you'd like to find out more about this masterclass, you can find

out more by visiting the website, www.geniusproject.co, and just

check out the masterclass page.

You can also send me an email.

Karen Genius project.co.

If you've liked what you've heard on the Genius Podcast, can I

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Until next week, ladies, I hope you have a beautiful week.

God bless you, and I look forward to you joining me next