If you've ever tried to give something up, pick up something new, or change

your behaviour, you'll know that making the decision, setting the goal or

the resolution, that's the easy bit.

Now making it stick, especially when the novelty has worn off, or life

has got in the way, is much harder.

Last week we had Alasdair Cant on the podcast, and I'm delighted to say

that he's joining us again to continue our discussion on behaviour change.

We recorded this one a few weeks after our first chat, but I wanted to share

this with you now because at this time of the year, so many of us are in that

all important phase where we've made the big decision to improve or change

something, but we're now into the period where willpower alone isn't enough.

So if you want to know how to make meaningful change that's based on

what your heart really wants, I'm sure you'll enjoy the second part

of my conversation with Alasdair.

If you're in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you're feeling

stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options.

I'm Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog

Hello, I'm Alasdair Cant, I work as an, uh, uh, specialist around

behavior change and growth.

And had been speaking with Rachel, uh, a little while back about, uh,

behavior change, particularly in the context of working with clinicians,

uh, where they will be caught up in all of this, uh, with themselves and

those around them with their patients.

And, uh, we apply motivational interviewing into this, where helpful.

It's wonderful to have you back, Alasdair.

We only spoke a few weeks ago and uh, there was just so much in there,

so I needed to get you back, not just to help me with my particular

issues and behavior change, but also 'cause I think these nuances of

behavior change are so, so important.

Because a lot of our listeners, not only are they managing behavior change for

their, their patients and their clients and their customers, helping them, you

know, live healthier lives and modify their, um, their illnesses by, you

know, behavior change and, and making things more healthy for themselves,

but also we struggle with it so much.

We know there's such a pandemic of burnout in the NHS and healthcare, and

not just healthcare, but we're seeing it, we're seeing it all over, aren't we?

Yes indeed.

And, and that's what I love about this podcast is who's looking

after those, who are after us.

The one thing I've noticed though, is that unfortunately there is no

magic ticket to cure stress, to cure burnout, to make us feel better.

It's all about what, what we choose to do.

And yes, there's a huge amount of stuff that needs changing in the

system, in the jobs and everything.

That's where above my pay grades.

So this podcast really focuses on what you can do, what, what you can control.

Which does come with a health warning.

I do need to say that.

What we don't wanna do is resilience, victim blaming nowhere where

it's like it's your fault that you are stressed and you can't

cope and et cetera, et cetera.

And we put you in this dreadful environment so that, in no way is it

that, however, and I'm sure you've seen this in some of your, your clients as

well, but there is something around the fact that often we don't take

control of the things that we could do.

But that's 'cause it's, it's, it's really hard.

And behavioral change just seems to be so difficult.

Why is that?

Yes, I think you've described something very, very well there.

It can feel overwhelming.

It's such a big thing.

There are so many uncontrollables that we then give up on what

we might control for ourselves.

And, uh, into all of that.

I. is this dynamic whereby we often are aware of things, but uh, we externalize

them and it's all going on out there and it doesn't feel that we can attend

to the things that are really close in.

And that first thing is just being aware of it.

Oh, this is, gosh, this is what's going on for me.

So for example, I, in, in, in my work with clinicians and, and I'm sure you'll

experience this with that listening out as I was doing with you, I'm listening

very carefully, not just to words that are said, but uh, what's behind it.

I'm listening also for emotion.

Uh, what, what is going on?

So I could hear at times that some things you were saying,

but your heart wasn't in it.

Uh, there's no problem about that.

It's that you get a buzz from your work and sometimes you want to keep

on going because you're enjoying it.

And yes, there are other things to be done which are a bit more

boring, but, you know, let's get honest about it with ourselves.

And that's partly what I'm trying to do is draw out

what's, what's really going on.

So, for example, sometimes there's the emotion is fear.

With clinicians, they are fearful of consequences of overlooking things, of

being taken to tribunal, whatever it is.

Let's get real about that because that can take the pressure out a

bit by just firstly acknowledging it even before we do anything.

Do you think there's other fears?

So yes, we've got a lot of fear about being sued, essentially about,

you know, how do you say no and someone might , . Quite literally,

if you say no or you set boundaries around your work, there might be

really, really serious consequences.

Sometimes.

I do wonder though, if we've got a bit of a fear of, well, if I

do set boundaries around my work, let, let's forget about what other

people think of us and whatever, what does that mean for me?

And if I do actually make the change that I say I want to make,

what if I suddenly find that things aren't any better, and then it's

then I can't blame my job anymore.

I can't blame anything else.

Or what if I find that actually I can't do it, or I suddenly not as significant

as I used to be, or this or that.

There's lots of stuff under that.

Oh, absolutely.

There are stories we tell ourselves.

I was thinking, you know, for, for the work I do is around, a lot of it is

around addiction and dependence and, and I, I, I realized a few years ago

that by being real with myself, that I am dependent on alcohol, uh, more than

I would have liked to have acknowledged before, but it, it, thankfully, it's

not problematic dependence, but I would struggle to live without the substance.

And that's okay.

Once I was able to acknowledge that and take some pressure outta the,

the, the whole thing of I've got to give up for the whole of January, I

then was able to significantly cut down my alcohol use by building in

some laps, because there are some times where I was just losing joy in.

Life.

And then getting to an age where I just thought I don't know how, um, in my

sixties, how many years will I have of enjoying really decent ale or whatever

it is, and, or, or things that, so with certain foods that go with that,

that, that's where my triggers were.

And actually being able to really work with that, I got much more success from

trying to do something that, as you were saying, was partly pleasing others.

Not that thankfully no one's complained about my drinking,

but nevertheless, I just thought this is a good thing to do for my

clients and just to be doing this.

And actually I got, as I say, it, it, it, it, it worked for

me, but that's because I was able to be honest with myself.

Is it that we tell ourselves a lot in terms of behavior change.

I ought to, I ought to do this, I ought to do that.

So whether it's with alcohol and side note, I've just started

a 30 day alcohol experiment.

The guides who do the The Naked Mind book.

It's wonderful in terms of not depriving yourself, but just saying,

let's see what it's like and let's look at why you want to do et cetera.

So if anyone would like to, rather than feeling deprived through

dry January, want to think, let's just see, then just, just

Google the alcohol experiment.

It's a bit called The Naked Mind by Annie Grace.

Totally brilliant.

And I hear a neutrality and let's see.

Oh, we're wondering, there's a lovely, it's not taking a position.

It's, uh, that, that, that, that I think is, is really helpful.

Yes.

It's particularly around this time of year, I ought to lose weight.

I should, um, uh, get better sleep.

I, uh, need to and so forth.

Now we mustn't dismiss those, those, those can be helpful.

Guilt can sometimes be, um, a good motivator in the short term.

There's nothing wrong with that.

Um.

The, the, the issue is that's all the mind, and then it's,

it's what's in the heart.

What do we really want?

And that was where our conversation was having about, you know, Rachel,

what do you want to do here?

Because, uh, we know what we ought to shoot do.

Uh, and that's the head and it's trying to connect the head and the heart.

And that once you get to the, the real long-term motivating factor is

what we, what's called heart's desire.

Once we get to something that we really want, we will then be able to keep

it, uh, to, to, to keep things going.

So, so for me, for example, I, I realize that, that at my age I

have been quite shaken by some of those struggles some people around

me have had with their health.

And that's, I realized I want to have a quality of life in my later years.

And it's partly driven by fear.

I will admit, fear of disability.

And, and that's got me going into doing some things that I wouldn't

ordinarily have done, such as Parkrun, which is, you know, in my mind a stupid

thing to do on a Saturday morning.

But actually there's something that has, I, I've been working with

something that's real for me, and it's a fear of, um, not being as

mobile, uh, because I've seen it and it's, uh, and, and it scared me.

So it, it, it can be very different for different people.

But in my head, I know I ought to be active.

Do I want to do it?

No.

Many better things to do on a Saturday morning, thanks very much.

But what has happened is I want, I want to ensure I, uh, have

a quality of life that is, is, is going to be at least, okay.

So that's, that's where the, the, the, the difference between the,

I ought to, I, I should, I need to, which is, has some merit, but

mid to long term, what do we want?

What is it that's, that's going to keep this, whatever this change

is that's gonna keep it going?

Alsdair, I'm just curious because we all want to feel well, we all

want to, you know, feel relaxed, feel calmer, feel well, work less,

spend more time with our family.

We maybe sometimes we want to spend more time with our family.

Um, so when I'm thinking about this behavior change, about, about wellbeing,

about all of that, we do want that.

Well, we want the feeling that we get when we get to it.

So why is it so difficult to really collect, connect

with that heart's desire?

Why is it that the other voices shout louder?

The fear voice shouts louder, the, the ought to the sort of obligation

towards patients or colleagues.

Why does that shout louder than our heart's desire?

Is, is It.

because we haven't articulated our heart's desire well enough?

It It is often quite complex in that there are many factors,

and one of the annoying ones is a thing called real life.

Yes.

there are, it's almost like there's a invisible tide running that works

against what we really want, uh, because that, that gets in the way.

And into that play, the patterns that are set for us, the traps that

are late for us, all sorts of things where we, uh, react, uh, to the,

and, and, and do something that would be not what we particularly want to

do, but we've just always done that.

And that's the difference.

What we're trying to do is.

What, what you've described in terms of the hearts desire is,

is to help us to rework that so that we respond rather than react

to life around us as best we can.

Now, it's not to say that from time to time for good reasons, we will

simply have to let go of what we want and just do what we ought to do.

And that's, that's understood.

But what we are talking about and, and I think in, in the work that you're

doing is about our, the patterns of, of our behaviors because that's what

we're trying to shift over time.

And that's where we attend to the things that are, uh, the more

responses that are going to be more constructive, uh, and, and helpful

rather than, um, just same old ways of reacting to the world around us.

Yeah, so there's something about connecting with your heart's,

desire for the motivation, and then there's something about the habits

for the sort of hacks, as it were.

Because if something is a, something is a habit, You just,

it's just completely automatic.

Like nobody thinks, oh, I really ought to clean my teeth.

We just do it, don't we?

Because it's, and it's weird, it would be weird not to do it.

And if we haven't got a toothbrush, we probably go out and buy

one because it's, you know, it's just so ingrained in us.

Brilliant.

So what you've just said there is really significant because you used

the word think, you just said it as uh, momentarily, but if thinking doesn't

happen, behavior doesn't change.

And that's where repeated actions where we get to a point where, uh,

just don't think about it, um, for good or ill will, um, establish norms.

And that's why with brushing your teeth, our teeth, we don't

think about it, just do it.

We've got into a pattern, which is a good pattern.

Um, but uh, just doing that other last email or just doing this because, or we

always want to do it tidy up or whatever it is, that may not be as as helpful.

But if we think about if we do it a little more mindfully,

whatever the expression is, then at least we're calling to a place

of consciousness, something which would otherwise be unconscious.

It is pulling it out of unconsciousness, isn't it?

And I'm always really surprised in coaching, both being coached

and coaching people, that that's the point of change, isn't it?

When suddenly you have this massive insight and realization.

About something that was there.

That was there all along, right?

That's it.

That's it.

So the jargon is internal recognition, but let's call it light bulb

moment or the penny drop moment.

Call it what we like.

It's that, it's, that's what, again, will shift behaviors.

How do we get that internal recognition?

Is it possible to do it on our own, or is it much easier to do it when you're

talking with somebody or maybe listening to something or reading a book, or?

Oh, Rachel, it's all of the above.

It can be someone just listens to something in the radio and,

uh, they hear something said, uh, and it lands very powerfully

for them because it's very real.

It, it could be that, um, you know, in, in our work as coaches, we listen

to what people say under their breath because that's where they speak a truth

and we just reflect that back, and they hear themselves perhaps for the first

time they hear themselves of afresh.

That will often create a light bulb moment.

So for example, someone might say, oh, that's just typical me.

And I'll say, that's typical.

You know, you'll just help 'em here and say why?

And, and then explore what that is.

So that can create a light bulb moment.

But sometimes it is, um, something a bit more extreme as for me,

with my neighbors around me.

We lived in an area where there's a lot of very mixed housing.

It's wonderful.

And I am, uh, on call to help people not have falls when they're

with el more older neighbors.

And that was the light bulb moment for me, thinking I don't want my life to be

like this in when I'm in my eighties.

And that, and it, it was a fear thing.

Now that fear doesn't usually take you very far, but it does for me.

It's for, you know, certainly so different things for different

people, I'm afraid there, there just is not a, an easy answer to that.

So sometimes in clinicians will be tempted to say things that, that sort

of put the frighteners in people, it, it will work for some, it won't for others.

It actually works for very few people, I would say..

cause that, I think that's where the guilt then comes in, the oughts.

Yeah.

I know I ought to do this, do that out, sugar, do this, do, do

park, ride every week, whatever.

But you know, I, at the moment, I don't really want to do it, but,

You're absolutely right.

And it, it fuels two things, particularly.

One, is it this sort of adult child relationship, uh, doctor patient,

um, but also it's simply short-lived.

If we, we can start off because, oh, I, oh, I'm scared.

I'm good because that doesn't last long.

Just like with, we know that with, um, the police, uh, have monitored

this, there's lots of research about when people pass a a, a road accident,

they will tend to slow down for a certain number of miles afterwards

because they've been shaken and thinking about their own speed and

so forth, and that doesn't last long.

So they have a fright, but they go back to the old patterns that we're

talking about of speeding perhaps.

Patterns.

Patterns.

It's all about patterns, isn't it?

much is Yeah.

Right.

Let's see if we can spot some patterns in me.

So last time we spoke, Alasdair, I was talking about wanting to put some

boundaries around, around my work.

And before, before I carry on, I just want to put another caveat in,

in that, um, I'm in a, obviously in a position, I'm not working

on the frontline currently.

I'm not, uh, not seeing patients.

And I think it's much, much more difficult when you have a pa a sick

patient at your door extras that need seeing urgent, urgent paperwork.

So I just want, I just want to caveat that, and, uh, I, I do, we do have

a talk all around how to say no, when, when, when someone's gonna die.

And, and one of the things that talk is, well, it, if genuinely

you say no and you stop working, it's gonna cause severe patient

harm, then, then don't say no, you know, do something different.

But this conversation we're gonna have is about those times where

there's that extra thing, those things you ought to do that,

that's, that's not life critical.

It's not life and death critical.

You know, no one's, no one's gonna die.

It's not gonna cause patient harm, but still, we, we keep doing it 'cause we

feel obligated to our colleagues, our peers, or it's a pattern we've got.

So I just wanted to, I just wanted to caveat that, and in the hope that this

conversation's gonna be just useful and maybe there might be some light bulb

moments from people recognizing some of the same sort of thought processes

that I'm having around all this.

So last time I talked about the fact that, you know, I would really

like to stop work at a decent hour.

Uh, you know, I would.

I would say 6, 6:30.

But I'm regularly working till 7, 7:30 just because there's

so, there's so much to do.

And in my time, in my line of work, you could just keep going.

I mean, I could work 24 hours a day, eight days a week if I, if I wanted to.

And I think that's the same probably.

I'm sure it is for you, for, for anybody.

But I realize my children are growing up.

They're not gonna be, you know, one of them's already at university.

Um, I'd love to spend more time with the family.

I'd love to be available to chat to my other half when he, when he comes

home, you know, rather than head in, I've just gotta get this finished.

And what invariably happens is that I'm then rushing to cook dinner

and it feels like a real chore.

So then, and I've got myself a meal.

I've got myself a meal, so it's easy.

I just have to go and get it.

But it's half an hour of cooking.

So it's lovely and I like doing it and it's a great time when

people congregate in the kitchen.

But something in me, even though I put the intention in the

beginning of the day, right?

And I said, even put an alarm on my phone saying at half five you start

to, you know, sort yourself out.

I'm still like at half six I'm going, oh, just this

thing and this extra, extra.

I'm pushing it, pushing it, and suddenly it's quarter past

seven, I haven't even started.

Everyone's like, where's tea?

And I'm racing and I'm feeling guilty and annoyed and all that.

And we talked a little bit about what I could do last time.

I think we talked about, you know, starting to do the shutdown routine a

little bit earlier, plan things a bit.

Yeah, so that's where we sort of got to on that.

Lovely.

Yeah.

Thank you.

And I, yes, and I hear that there's, um, a whole number of

things there that it, it, you recognize that the work is endless.

Uh, the, the demands are, uh, always going to be there.

And I, I'm wondering what that does for you when you acknowledge that.

Well, first of all, makes me feel a bit panicky because there are

always things that I, I ought to be doing in, in, in work.

You know, I ought to be doing more on social media, for example.

I ought to be checking in with my team more.

I ought to be make it, you know, being a bit more systematic.

There's all sorts of things I don't feel I'm particularly good at sometimes

in, in running an organization.

So there's a lot of oughts and you know, you then see other people that,

that appear to have it all together, but doing, you know, writing a book and

doing this and that and the other, but there is only a finite amount of time.

And one of the things I teach is you need to prioritize and decide

what you're gonna spend your one world and precious life on.

So yes, it, there's a, a combination of panic, but also excitement as well.

So there's panic in, oh, I'm not, I'm not doing enough to be able to

promote the podcast, for example.

I'm not doing enough follow up of, of various things,

but there's also excitement.

I do, I'm an Enneagram seven, so I do get excited by new stuff.

So I love, you know, I often buy online courses from people, work through them.

'cause I'm like, oh, that's interesting, let's do that.

And actually for me it's, it's really enjoyable sitting there.

Doing an online course, and if I don't get the, the, the, the, the

basic admin done that I need to get done, then I don't have the time to

do the stuff that really excites me.

Yes.

No, that makes a lot of sense.

And a, a couple of things here, Rachel, who is saying that, that you

ought to, uh, be spending more time on social media or writing this or,

uh, look, looking out for your team?

Well, I guess I, I mean, it's, it's, it's my voice in my head, but if you

listen to anything about how to do podcasts and things like that, it's

sort of like, yes, you've got to promote it here and promote it there.

So, you know, so you can, you can tell, you can tell people about it.

And I always feel I didn't grow up in the, you know, when I went to

university, no, mobile phones, I'm sure, just like you, I say, you know,

I'm not a digital native, so I'm, I'm a bit clum, I feel like I'm really

clumsy on social media and I don't particularly like it 'cause it, it

makes me compare myself to other people and then I, so I never feel good.

When I look at social, I never feel good.

When I look at social media, I feel anxious and I feel other people are so

much better than I think well, that's what social media is for, isn't it?

So it's not a joyful thing to do, but I know that in this day and age

when when you've got a podcast that you think helps people or whatever,

then that's one of the main ways to get, to get stuff out to people.

So, so that's one of the, that's one of the, oughts, because know,

actually it would, it would mean the podcast has more impact if I did that.

Cause that's a really lovely example of where it's coming from your head.

Um, whether it's because externally you recognize it's a good thing

to do to be more effective.

Um, but you could hear that your heart's not in it.

So that's a question that we'd have to look at who can, can

support you with that, for example.

I really appreciate your honesty, Rachel, about the excitement you

get as well from all of this.

Because that tells us something that this, this is, this is a driver

for you, if I can use that word.

This is something that is, is keeping some of this going.

And by being honest about that, it suggests to us that setting

an alarm may help a little bit.

Um, knowing that you should have a 5:30 begin to wind

things down may help a bit.

But what we are hearing is something that is external that puts a stop where

you want there to be a stop that because the o otherwise, what I'm I'm hearing

is there's this a part of you that will hijack however good a plan you've got.

That's a hundred percent true.

And when I'm thinking just on a sort of meta level about, um, doctors and, you

know, people that have clinic lists and things like that, a, a, a, a big driver

for them, possibly is to, to achieve.

To achieve.

So get stuff done, to be thought of well, and to be needed by patients,

you know, to be needed by your team, by your patients and stuff like that.

And it can, and I think sometimes we don't recognize

that because it feels like such a burden, but that is the driver.

And so yeah, if you've got a, a stop going, I've got to, I've got to

leave now, then if it's for something where someone else needs you, like,

like we can all get to our parent, well, most of us, and let us a di

emergency, parents evening school place, things like that, because

the kids need us, that's a family.

It's an obligation.

But if it's just getting home to talk to the family, that's not such a big need.

Therefore, it's not such a, a motivator.

For a moment, let, if I can now just push you a little bit on this.

So who is it and or what Is it that is going to help, that

will create a hard boundary?

Well, things that have helped in the past is, um, when I've had a, a

commitment that I've got to get to.

So things like I used to do, I set a while back, five years ago, tennis

course, you know, when I wasn't seeing patients at a certain point, I think

it was at five till six or something.

But that made me stop what I was doing and, you know, go off and do it.

Or exercise, you know, if you've got a, a commitment, a class to

get to or something like that, that that's, that stopped you.

'cause it's a, you, you've got an actual deadline, ver versus a, a soft

deadline that you've put in yourself.

If you know you've got to, there's something happening in

the evening with the families, you've got to be, be back for that.

So, um, that would, that would help in, in the past.

Plus, yeah, I think the more overwhelmed you are with, with jobs, the longer

you are to do, the longer you, you, you feel it, is, then the, then probably

the more you'll just do that extra little thing, that extra little thing.

And there is that, that time blindness to how long things things take as well.

And, and also if it feels like doing the email or something's

an obligation to somebody else, you're more likely to to do that.

To do that as well.

And I think with doctors, that's absolutely true.

Like if it, if it's your own project, then yeah, that

might sit on the backend.

But if it's somebody else that needs something for your, that's, that's

you, you, you, you know that you can't let, you can't let them down.

That would be just dreadful.

It makes a lot of sense.

And that, that, that, what I'm picking up here, listening to your language

is you've got some actual boundaries that help, such as commitment to

somebody else, exercise or something.

And then soft boundaries.

Now notice the language there because that tells us how to,

you described that earlier.

You want to be there for your children at this season where they are around,

and it's the extent to which that is an actual or a soft boundary.

That's your choice.

Yeah, that's interesting that think about the soft boundaries because when

you've got the soft boundaries and you tend to have soft boundaries with

things like maybe friends and family where you know, you could go and meet

them, you don't have to, or family just gonna be there in the evening.

That feels like something that, that that can be broken.

No one's gonna complain at at you, but if you break it enough times over

six months, then then you've broken your own hard boundary type thing.

This is, this is what you're dealing with.

And that, that's why this honesty about it is so important because when

there's an excitement about the work and a sense of, commitment to other

people, to attend to an email and all sorts of things, then given what you've

described, there's no way that you're going to keep to some of those soft,

but it's just not going to happen.

Let's get real about it and stop angsting over it or choose to do

something different that would work for Rachel Morris in the, in

creating different, uh, boundaries and patterns to make it what I

call, you know, the jargon is a hard stop, which just says that's it.

And, and the question is who, who would help you with that?

Yeah, no, that makes sense.

'Cause my, the reason I'm not saying anything, I'm just thinking

how on earth would I do that.

Great question.

You ask yourself a, a really pertinent question, how would you do that?

And that's where then you can work out small and bigger ways

of, of making that happen.

Now, I, I put it to, Rachel, I think perhaps you are

already doing some of it.

And this is what tends to happen is that we overlook, the, some of the success

because we just see it as, because the lapses tend to have more authority

in our lives than the, successes.

Uh, and it's just what is, what's, what's good enough to be able to

help things progress in a, in a helpful direction, in this case,

towards having more time at, uh, meal times with your children in

the cooking and the preparation.

To, to, to progress towards something rather than it be an

absolute that you always keep to something may be more useful,

And just a side note, Alasdair, do you, do you find that that is, that

is where people really struggle with behavior change when they, when they

put in a, it's got to be like this, and then as soon as a fail, oh,

that's it, that's, it's all gone.

That's it exactly.

The, a lot of work I'm taking up is to help people recognize

that, um, we set ourselves up sometimes for all kinds of reasons.

There's, um, lots of, uh, sort of pressures around us

that collude with that set up and it becomes almost a trap.

It, it, it's, it's such a, a big leap of change.

And of course people feel a sense of defeat and failure

and shame, all sorts of stuff.

And actually lapse is part of the journey of change

from which we can learn.

And building that in and actually recognizing the success, that's part

of a journey where there are lapses as much as the setbacks of learning.

You can get so much more from that and take away a lot of that guilt and

actually then do that discovery of, oh, this is what's going on for men.

And, uh, just what we enjoyed before that neutrality of, oh,

let's just, let's just be curious about this, what's going on?

Rather than I've got to do and keep to such and such,

which can just feel daunting.

It's interesting 'cause the other day, I'd set some alarms

'cause I forget, I forget things.

If I've got a call to do or, you know, webinar or something like that.

I'm so paranoid about forgetting it that I, I, I'll set an alarm and I'll

think to myself, how, how much time do I need to get to the computer to make

sure it's all turned on and, you know, um, and so I set like 15 minutes in

advance to make sure it's all, all fine.

But, um,, I found myself ignoring the alarms I'd got when

I was in the middle of stuff.

I'd be like, oh no, that alarm alarm's gone off.

Yeah, but I've still got a little while, still got five minutes before

like, call that and then forget it.

And then sometimes I'd just completely forget the course.

So I made this commitment to myself that I would back my wise self.

So my wise self when I'm doing the planning that set the alarms

that said, you need to do this.

I'm just gonna follow that for a week.

And so the other day I set an alarm 20 minutes early because I think

I was, I had a personal training session, so I knew I need to stop,

put all my stuff away, sort stuff out, get down, go to the changing

rooms, get a glass of water, go out, and I thought, oh, I don't need 20

minutes when the alarm went off.

No, I'm, I'm gonna do it.

So I forced myself to do it.

And I got there.

It was very chill.

I got there, I got there in time.

I got there two minutes early and I was like, that was so much better.

I was so much better because I actually backed my older wiser self because

I, I'd done it, I'd done it already.

So I guess my question is, if, if I then decided throughout the week that

I'm gonna stop, like at this point, you know, bar, bar, bar emergencies

coming in, and sometimes they do, and you have to, you have to adapt, how

am I gonna make myself back, back the intention that I already, that I already

had in the, in, in, in, in the, it's the in the moment stuff, isn't it?

Yes, indeed.

There's a couple of things particular that stand out, uh, from what you've

said, firstly, that your alarms are be, are no longer alarming.

Yes.

You know, and that's, and that's something just that, because they

become so part of what, of a norm.

And so it's just thinking about how you use them best.

But as importantly, for behavior change to work for ourselves and those around

us, we, there has to be reward in it.

Um, that we have to get something from it unashamedly and, uh, really

hold onto what that sensation you had.

Wow, this feels good.

Two minutes early at the gym or wherever it was that you were, this feels good.

Now, that is, it is the feelings that we hold onto long after we forget the

detail of quite what was going on and what, it is this sensation and that

is, um, what we were going to do.

So having had that, then aiming to perhaps replicate that a a little bit

and that, that's, Rachel, will tend to drive that change, because, you know,

in your, in your inner self and that less conscious state, this is worth it.

I get something from it.

Does that mean then that if, if you want to do a behavior change

that, that you want to last, at the beginning you might just have to rely

on willpower a little bit and go, right, I've committed to do this.

I'm gonna do it so that you then get the reward from doing it, and then

that starts to then back up the sort of internal motivation and, and the

internal reward system that's going on?

Exactly.

'cause I, I've got the advantage here.

I, I, well actually partly I can hear in your voice and energy, but also I

see in your body language, uh, that will power, I'm going to do this now.

This is partly you're momentarily having to go counterintuitive to that part

of yourself that is so excited by just tucking in that little bit of thing.

Just, I don't need 20 minutes to prepare.

I can do this in 11 minutes so I can tuck in this, I can do that.

That is a real part of Rachel that is drive, this excitement of doing that.

And that's the bit that is for whatever we call it, what we like to be tamed or

to be, to be, uh, acknowledged and, and, and to be work, work with differently

because, um, that Rachel will tend to win over because it creates, uh,

fun and excitement of whatever it is that is, uh, that it does for you.

So you are absolutely right.

The willpower to say no to that, Rachel, 20 minutes is what we need.

Sorry, Rachel, but we're, we're going to do something differently.

Uh, and you know, so it's, it's speaking to ourselves positively in that way.

The problem I think comes when it's maybe other people.

So when we do some, when we do some training, um, we do, uh,

some stuff around, obviously wellbeing, prioritization

and all that sort of stuff.

And, uh, we've talked about prioritizing and we talked to the

group about how important it's to go those three things that are really

gonna move the needle for you, really move the dial for you, you know,

have a massive impact on your life.

And then we give them a scenario of, right, okay, you know, that you've made

a commitment to go, to go swimming.

You know, you've had a really long day.

You've managed to, you finish your, finish your list, whatever you've

done, half an hour paperwork, you had just shut your computer

down, you've got half an hour.

The swimming pool shuts in half an hour.

You know, you know it's gonna make a massive difference to you.

You're on call for the rest of the week and your colleague comes in and

they says, oh, they just want to talk.

Can I talk to you?

They've been thinking of leaving, but they've had this conversation

several times with you before.

You know, it's not a big deal.

You could talk to 'em tomorrow when you're fresh, blah, blah, blah.

How many of you would just stop and talk and like, at least half

the group, like, no, I still would like stop my swimming or whatever.

That, and I think that is, that is the issue.

We can be, we can know ourselves, but as soon as other people get

involved, that sort of guilt and the wanting to please, but wanting, it's

not even a people pleasing thing.

It's more of a real compassionate thing.

We are all people pleasers.

That's the way our brains work.

But it's that real compassionate, I want to be there for my colleague.

I, I want, I want, I want to help out.

And I think that's what derails us so many times.

You know, I've committed to do the Parkrun in the, on the Saturday morning,

but my kid needed me to take them somewhere 'cause I just wanted to be a

ni a nice mom or someone else needed me.

So I did that and then I've completely lost that commitment I had to myself for

that thing that act actually gonna be better for my kids in the long run, or

my colleagues in the long run, you know?

Yes.

It, it, it is hard, and I, I appreciate you, you not, uh, recognizing that it

is not a casual, uh, labeling people as being people pleasers the rea.

This comes from a place of compassion for another.

And, um, I, I think it's in that moment.

It, it just, this is why with, uh, behavior change preparation is, is

put, even just working out, this is some things are likely to happen.

So what, what we picked up from that example you gave there, uh, was that

the, this is has happened before.

So this colleague has come to a number of times.

What do we do when that is because this compassion to them

and compassion to ourselves.

So for example, in that moment I would try to be really positive

and say, this is really important.

I want to make sure I can, uh, give this some, some space and time.

And then you just be, then it's being compassionate.

So that's the compassion to that person.

And compassion to yourself.

I can't do this now, but it is, I want to do this and it's important.

Let's make sure, uh, you know, whatever it is.

But the compassion goes both ways.

So I really like that, what you were saying about that, the sentiment of it,

but it isn't just towards other people.

It, it has to be in the round.

Um.

You know, there's more we could say on that, but I, I think it's,

a lot of it is if, if we don't plan for these real life scenarios,

then they, they will trip us up.

Um, because that what, what you described was a classic reaction.

Oh, that's off.

Okay, let's sit.

And before we know it, uh, that that precious half hour window has gone.

Uh, and that's, you know, if, if we plan, we're going

to build it into the plan

so you'd get people to maybe list out all the different

things that might stop them.

Or some of them.

I mean, it may be unrealistic to all of them, but you could, you could

think about, and it's, and I will admit as a parent, I, I practiced

some phrases with my children because it was endless, some of the demands.

And I would say things such as, and I know it sounds a bit of stock

phrases, but look, this, what you've said is really important and I don't

want to be, um, distracted now.

I can't deal with it now, but let's talk about this after we've watched

whatever it is we plan to do.

So it's firstly being really positive.

This is important.

I'm hearing it, and I want to be fully here for you rather than

be distracted or whatever it is.

I know I wouldn't say it as a pat phrase, but, um, I, I learned to,

uh, recognize that shadow side of me what you describe the people pleaser.

I just want to, as a dad, the, the guilt of I've got to be there

when, uh, you know, my child says.

Now, occasionally that is true.

They might, I might hear an urge, urgency.

Just think this is a, a, a moment.

But that's what we're talking about is breaking patterns.

And if this becomes a pattern, then we're not looking out for ourselves.

And then we become, uh, caught in the trap of constantly, um, meeting other

people's demands and, and, and then becoming resentful and, and worn out.

Yeah.

And I think we see that happening all the time, don't we?

And uh, I think.

Having those stock phrases is, is really, really helpful.

Um, the problem is people then might react to the stock phrases.

You know, I, I did, uh, with one of my children wanted to

talk to me about something and I was, I had just had such a day.

I just, I said to them, I'm so sorry.

I, I just haven't got the capacity to, to look at this now or think about it.

Actually, it wasn't even, it wasn't anything big.

It was just trying to choose Christmas presents.

I was like, talk about decision fatigue.

I said, I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry.

I, you know, and the reaction I got was, oh, you, you know, you care

about that so much, you can't even talk to me about this, whatever.

And I thought, well, you know what?

The react, that's a, that's a you problem, not a me, not a me problem.

I'm so sorry.

I said, I can't, I can't process this.

I'm sorry if you're upset about it, but it, it felt awful.

But actually I was very glad I,

that's a good example.

'cause uh, I mean, children know us intimately so they will

know how to find that chink.

And that's the first thing we, we, we, we get that.

But also, um, you're absolutely right about stock free.

I, I'm very careful with clients.

I just keep trying to change the expressions.

I have to say the same thing because partly I enjoy what I do and I don't

want it to become formulaic and anything like same old, same old.

And so, so, you know, I'm, I'm aware in our world, uh, using things like,

oh, I'm curious about what you've said.

I notice it, you know, all of this can become just jargon and meaningless.

So I'll just say, um, you know, I, I'll just sense, or I've picked up

this, or I'm wondering about that.

You just have different ways of saying the same thing because yeah, stock

phrases can sound empty and, uh, and, and we have to check ourselves for,

am I being real when I say to that colleague, you know this, this is

really important and I do want to give you, uh, this, the proper attention.

I I can't do it now?

Now you, so you find your way in which you can hand on heart say that

authentically, um, but being true to them and to yourself with compassion.

I think I've heard it, it phrased as, um, say Yes.

to the person And no to the thing.

No to the task.

So you're saying, yes, you are really important.

I would love to talk to you.

Um, but I can't do that now 'cause I, you know, I, I need to go

And it takes practice.

It takes practice.

Yeah.

You're absolutely right.

But interestingly, we can do that to patients.

We practice at saying to patients, or some of us are, you know, particularly

with gps and a patient comes a list of 10 things, you know, there's no way

you can deal with that in 10 minutes.

So of, you know, get very practiced saying that's really important, tell

me, what would you like to talk about?

One thing you really take, I'm so sorry we can't talk about today, but

let's talk about that another time.

So, you know, we are maybe not good enough at actually putting

boundaries around how much we're gonna talk about or when we're gonna

talk about with, with patients.

What else do you find comes up in terms of the things that stop us?

The things, So.

with me, it's my excitement just wanting another thing done.

It's, it's, it's not wanting to let people down it's obligations.

What, what are a common themes in the people that you work with?

Well, I, I think just picking up on that, that there are,

what, what you described, there was a transferable skills.

We can do some of this.

And what we tend to do, what one of the blocks is we have a

perception that because it's this area in it, then it's different.

And, um, very often there is, you know, there's, there's,

when we listen carefully, often it's a love story within it.

You know, love for our children, love for the, I think there's, there's,

there's, there are a lot of factors that come into play, which are very powerful.

And just being really aware of those is, is so important.

What's actually going on for somebody in what is really at the heart of this.

So that's why I'm listening.

What's really going on here without it being over analytical or therapy.

It's, it's simply, um, being aware of that.

And into that as, as well when it, the whole arena of behavior change.

It's, it's recognizing that there will be a, a number of factors that play

into all of what goes on day to day that are often missed opportunities because

we are not living in that moment.

We don't see it as easily because we're just going from one thing to, and it's

just trying to slow down slightly.

An interaction, just a conversation, just being aware

of how things are being said.

So things happen very quickly and that's where, uh, behavior change

is harder because there's just, we're metaphorically bouncing

from one thing to the next.

And it's finding a way, partly through it might be a breathing technique or

just being in the moment as best we can, because that is where we can then

bring to the realm of consciousness.

Even just fraction of a setting can just be a, a very short space of time where

we can just be a little more self-aware.

And, and, and that a lack of self-awareness and just, you know,

when people describe a, a, a drive to their work and they think, gosh, I

got here, but it was an automatic pie.

I wasn't thinking about it.

That's an example where they've gone in their head somewhere and actually

sometimes it's, it's, they're not live it, that there isn't a fullness of life.

And being able to be fully themselves in a way that would then be able to be

aware and take note of what they need to in order to check, keep change going.

And that's how we get into unconscious automatic reflex

behaviors that entrench old habits rather than, uh, do things afresh.

So again, that is usually counterintuitive.

Rachel.

We, we, we, we will, um, we say things quickly, we do things.

So in this conversation, sometimes we've taken a moment to pause.

Think about how we're going to respond.

We may together wrestle with something and then just tease something out.

And, and we achieve insights in ways that save time by doing it that way.

That's the fascinating thing.

Rather than ping ponging with lots of different ideas.

And it can often when conversations are, are kind of not, not quite

competing monologues, but they're just lots of monologues that actually

aren't as fruitful as they might be.

And that's as true when we're with other people as sometimes with ourselves.

And I love the way you've brought that into this conversation.

We, we talk about taking the pause the whole time.

You know, when you're in the corner, when your amygdala's flared

up, just taking that pause to get yourself back into parasympathetic.

Think about what do I really want?

Being conscious of your reaction rather than unconsciously saying, Yeah, yeah.

sure, let's have that conversation now and I'll, I'll forget about the,

the swimming I was gonna do later.

But even taking a pause going, can you just give me a second?

Go get yourself out and just saying, what do I want to do?

What's the right thing?

Well, not what's the right thing to do?

I don't like the right and wrong.

What do, what have I decided to do here and how can I be

compassionate to this person?

How can we both get our needs met and in the thing that I, I need to do?

But you are right when it happens so quickly.

it.

It it does, and I really like that expression just to take a pause.

It's, it's something about an inner permission just to allow ourselves,

um, just a, a moment or a pause.

Um.

I was working with a, a fantastic, uh, head teacher that she, she would

discover when, this is a slightly related but connected thing, and

she'd say, let's treat ourselves.

She would say to the whole school, let's just treat ourselves to a

little perspective here, because everyone's, it was gonna lose.

So we can somehow get into reaction because we lose sight of a perspective.

We, we feel overwhelmed.

Um, we don't give ourselves that moment to just stop and think.

There's all sorts of things that go on and, and allowing something different

in the, the, the space just momentarily can be so helpful as you've described.

I love that phrase.

Let's treat ourselves a little perspective, 'cause that's like, that's

like a real, it is a, it is a gift.

It's a real gift, isn't it?

It is.

Yeah, so during this conversation, as I've just realized, how much

behavior change really is about being able to grab onto the long

term perspective in those short term moments where everything is telling

you, I'm too tired to, do this.

That person in front of me needs me.

I've got to react to this and that.

But then being able to bring those long-term perspectives to the forefront,

first of all, you needing that.

that light bulb moment, what did you call it?

Intentional internal recognition

recognition or like

of what the long-term perspective is.

'cause unless you've got that, there's, there's no point.

There really is no point and, and actually something

that really matters to you.

But then being able to access that all the time, even when you get

the, the lapses and life and the emergencies and all that stuff.

That's fantastic, and I think you've articulated that beautifully.

And, and, and the one thing I would say is that, you know, often again,

we just say things like, oh, there's no point if it's not long term.

Of course, short term, there is some point we can salvage everything.

We can, we can get some treasure from almost everything if we're willing to,

uh, look again at it, um, just with, with the sort of care to ourselves.

And, but, but what you describe is absolutely accurate there.

Yes.

It's, it's the long term that we're working to because that will

be what really creates change.

We tend to use a, uh, a phrase that, that we teach called power mantras,

which is, I am choosing to do X so that y even if Z. So sort of thinking

what pushback you're gonna get or, um, what's gonna stop you in the future.

Have you got any sort of quick phrases or quick hacks that, that

you help people with to, just to bring to mind those, those

long-term decisions and commitments that they've made to themselves?

I'm a bit of a one trick pony in that there's many things I have, but

because I work very live, um, with people, I, I, there's very little I

can draw out of a hat, if you like.

It is just, I, I, I don't have many of these, uh, wonderful expressions.

Um, but it, it give me a situation and, and I will help people find, articulate

something that that's gonna be useful.

And it may come from an example I have as we've had a few

things along this conversation.

But in a way, Alasdair, that's.

I guess.

it's actually much more powerful if the person comes up with it

themselves anyway, isn't it?

We know that.

We know that from coaching.

People need to come up with their own why and they're probably their own.

Their own thing that's gonna just, mantras whatever,

whatever they can use for

Yes.

I think you're absolutely right.

And that's with metaphors that are, that they just live and breathe for

metaphors that, that, I mean, that's a, can you just say a little bit about,

about how metaphors can help people?

Well, if, if, um, very often the world that we are in is

different to another pro, well always, it's gonna be different.

And often it's quite dull and it's, uh, it doesn't have the same meaning.

And if, if, uh, sometimes my clients, if they are, um, particularly, let's see,

uh, uh, into a recent one was football.

It's not particularly my thing, but this person is really into football

and, um, they had had a setback in their parenting and was at the risk of

not being able to have, um, access to their child because of, uh, behaviors.

And they were feeling like giving up.

Now what I was able to convey just to help 'em work out that

their tenacity as a football fan.

They're keeping in their, when they, you know, they, they can have a few

wins, their team has a few wins, and then they have a setback, and yet they

stay in as a fan and in parenting things occasionally will go wrong, and it's

what they do with that to then get back.

And now being, making a connection through football really.

Spoke to that individual because it's their world, it's not mine,

and they will then create something.

They then took that on and said, yeah, I, you know, they recognized

a quality they had about their ability to stay in against the odds,

that tenacity as I was describing, just a sort of level of commitment.

And that they could translate that into noticing, actually they

can also do that as a parent.

They had already been doing that as a parent, but somehow had seen it too much

as, uh, a chore rather than that love, and they really saw a difference there.

Um, it, it definitely wasn't my kind of metaphor.

It would not have worked for me.

Uh, I, I don't hate football, but it just, I don't have anything like what

my mates seem to get from it, but that's metaphor we want to use them generously,

and it comes from active listening.

What matters to that person?

So I listen to you and if I hear the adventure and the excitement

in certain kinds of things, we've got to attend to that and enjoy

it and, and, and harness it.

And if you like, allow it to channel energy positively towards change

rather than me trying to impose my metaphors or phrases that can feel

as, as you were describing earlier, a little bit canned and jargonistic

and not meaning to, but just somehow that's how it could come out.

So my job is to listen carefully to what's going on in somebody's world.

I, I had a, a recent example with, uh, a professional working with,

uh, this, uh, client caught up with in someone's controlling behaviors.

And, um, she'd happened to the, the social, it was a social worker

who'd happened to overhear that the, the person had been watching, uh,

a tele program called Married at First Sight, it's, it's something

I'm not familiar with, but it worked.

She, she decided just to watch it and it happened that this episode was about

controlling behaviors, and mean, or, or at least there was enough in and there.

And it was a brilliant, uh, way of being able to have a really potent

and a, a, a great conversation about, uh, something that's not easy around

the, the behaviors through the lens of a television program that would

not have been her world, but she took the trouble to just, what is that?

I'll just have a look at, oh, there's something here.

I love that.

I love that it, and you know, everything you know about communicating with people

and, and getting points around and stuff is about story and metaphor, isn't it?

And, and as you were saying that actually the, the metaphor that came to,

to me is one that we've started using a lot and it really spoke to me from

the emails I've got from other people, is about how you see your to-do list.

And I originally, um, heard this from Oliver Burkeman, who wonderful,

wonderful writer, sort of anti productivity guru as it were.

And he was talking about books that he wanted to read and how

he, he had so many books he wanted to read and he used to see them

as a bucket, a bucket of books.

He had to get to the bottom of, he had to read one, then

another and another, and another.

And that just putting lots of pressure on him.

And instead he started to see the list of books he wanted to read as a river.

Like the, all these books that he could read flowing past him.

At any point he could just take one out the river and read it or

put it back and it didn't matter.

And, uh, we started talking about seeing your to-do list as

a river rather than a bucket.

And for me, that, that actually, when I'm thinking about putting a

boundaries around my work, actually Yes.

my to-do list, the stuff that we could do is, it's a river, it is endless.

And actually, what is it that you're gonna take out of the river that

day and finish and what you're just gonna let, let, let go past?

E Exactly.

And notice that will will work for one.

I mean, that's 'cause it, to me it sounds so much less threatening the

river, but to another person, they might just feel over, would be sucked in.

But that it works.

Uh, no, I really, I really get that and you're, uh, I'm not a frog that is based

on, as I understand it, a metaphor of, um, uh, of how we describe, uh, stress.

Yes.

It does have the unwanted side effect that people keep giving me things

you just see behind me, there's a frog on my, on my bookshelf.

It is the joy unex, and this is actually a fascinating, I know not to make too

much of This, but in behavior change, there's always unexpected outcomes.

There's things that, that we'd never necessarily anticipate

Just a quick story about unintended consequences.

I, um, was going to the, the gym.

I got there.

I was slightly late for my tennis lesson, and so I sort of went

through the bar and it stopped.

I couldn't get through with my card, and I was like,

there was no one at the desk.

It was really early in the morning.

I'd, I'd bang my leg on it, and I had to wait for five minutes.

So someone came up to the desk and I said, well, my car is not working.

They looked at the thing and I went, oh, sorry.

Happy birthday.

That was just a reminder to say Happy Birthday to you.

I was like, I'm late for my tennis lesson.

I've got a bruise on my leg.

I'm really frustrated.

And that was also that you could wish me Happy birthday.

That was their, so their intention kind of backfired

So they put this habit in.

They'd obviously wanted to hack a and create behavior where it, it just

reminded the staff to be polite and pleasant, but they totally backfired.

I thought, Oh what a great, what a great example there.

Right.

yeah.

No,

that's,

I obviously got over

that's lovely.

Yeah.

No, but it is, it is.

It's, it's, it's, uh, Putin for, and it's, it's a lovely initiative, but

actually it's, uh, yeah, in that moment because there was no one at the desk.

That's brilliant.

yeah,

But then it's all right to change and it's all right to try stuff.

Right?

So they tried

yeah.

obviously didn't work.

Let's, let's think of another way they could wish Happy Birthday, et cetera.

or, or or that you recognize that and you know, you things, there will be

blips, but actually that's probably what you've described as accept

is accept is an exception because mostly people would be at the desk.

So it's probably overall a good initiative.

So again, you tend to write it off, say, oh, well that didn't work.

Well actually, overall probably it does work.

Um, uh, but in that moment it didn't.

And that shouldn't be given too much authority.

Okay.

That, that's a really good point, isn't it?

'cause we so quickly write stuff off when it fails once.

exactly.

I. And that is part of my top tip would be to say that because

you, you use the expression fail, and it is not about failure.

That is a very finite term that, uh, we will have setbacks.

That is part of, of things.

And once we are able to, uh, embrace them and learn from them,

we will be able to progress.

Now the other thing is within that, um, time of year, there are so many,

uh, demands upon us and it, it does get, it's a particularly challenging

season for many people because of lack of light and, you know, the

vitamin B and all of, of, of, of that.

And just attending to what's going on for us with, you know, it's

with kindness and I know that can be an overworked phrase, but it's

really, uh, letting go of our intention with behavior change

becoming yet another demand.

What we want is that this be something, a bit like the river

is just along the way, we are flowing towards who we want to be.

We want this to be something that is meaningful and

workable, uh, for ourselves.

So I think that's the, trying to reframe all of that rather than, um, this is

another obligation or another demand.

And then the, the, the other thing is just, uh, that recognizing that the

habits we've got into have probably become unexpectedly comforting to us.

It, it, it's a, a, a pattern which has worked for us.

And it may have become unhealthy or unhelpful, but nevertheless, recognizing

that as we move to different behaviors, there's temporarily some discomfort.

And that is okay.

And actually it's the courage we can find within ourselves to keep

going with that being a little bit counterintuitive, that will help

us to create new norms and, and new ways of, of being that we want.

But we have it, it, it's just recognized.

We'll have to go through some discomfort, which is why the

kindness is so important.

I love that.

And I think that is, is so important.

'cause when we experience a discomfort, we're like, well, hang on, this was

supposed to make me feel better, but it is actually making me, making

me feel worse in the short term.

the short.

Exactly.

And it will, it will come good.

And I think that thing about being comfortable, you know, these, these

habits are unexpectedly com comfortable.

So, you know, going back to yours with getting the excitement

that, oh, just that little email.

It, it, it is, it's a comfort place.

It's what you're used to.

So yes, you're absolutely.

Um, if people wanna get hold of you, find out more about your work, how can

they find out more about you, Alasdair?

Yes.

The easiest way is, well, uh, my, my name.

I know it's a Scottish name, but it's Alasdair Cant, so

A-L-A-S-D-A-I-R-C-A-N-T is probably the easiest way because there

are many ways to get in touch.

It's probably through my name,

Great.

We'll, we'll put the link in the show notes, so get in

Yes, that's probably the best way to do it.

Thanks for listening everyone, and we'll speak soon.

Rachel, it's been a great pleasure.

Thanks for listening.

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