PJ Ellis (00:38)

today we're joined by a former England international rugby player who has spoken openly about identity, race, the pressure of professional sport, and is now using his platform to drive change, to champion mental wellbeing, and to basically inspire the next generation. Welcome to the pod, Luther Burrell. How are you, mate?

Luther Burrell (01:00)

⁓ what an introduction. Great, great intro. Thank you, gentlemen. Yes, I'm very, very, very good. Thank you for having me.

PJ Ellis (01:02)

you

Well, to be fair, mate, it's easy to make that sort of introduction when you've done all the things that you have. You do some wonderful things with the foundation. No doubt we'll come on to that. Tell us a little bit more about then Luther Burrell, who is he, what you've been up to and what you do in Mukka.

Andy (01:08)

Welcome.

Luther Burrell (01:24)

Yeah, okay. Well, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? So Luther Burrell, I am a Yorkshire man, if you can tell from the accent. I'm currently residing in Cheshire, so all of my Yorkshire following will be disappointed with that. I've been the other side of the border. Been out of professional sport for two years, but I believe that I'm still playing the game, but just in a different fashion at the moment. So I'm from Huddersfield, spent over a decade in elite sports.

internationally, played premiership for a number of years, premiership champion, European champion, played for my country, played for the barbarians. I pinch myself and you can tell by the smile on my face that every time I have this conversation, I absolutely love it because...

It took 75 years, shall we say, for somebody from Huddersfield to go on and represent England in rugby union. it's something that I'm immensely proud of, immensely proud of, lads. And coming away from the sport, I have delved into the world of philanthropy and the set up of foundation about ⁓ creating as much impact as we can on the communities across England, because I believe I have a obligation.

to share some of that knowledge and share some of that experience on the generations that are to come. So that is something that really fills my cup. It's tough, it's tough work, of course it is, but it's thoroughly enjoyable. It's thoroughly enjoyable and somebody's gotta do it, so why not me?

Andy (03:01)

Fantastic. Love that. had a quick scan at your LinkedIn. It was a bit of prep. And I saw, I think it's probably your biggest post, I think, Luth. And I think the headline was, I am in survival mode every single day. Is that still the case or has time's moved on?

Luther Burrell (03:15)

Mmm.

Yeah, it absolutely is the case. So you think about the nature of my life over the past 20 years. So it was my birthday the other weekend, lad. So I just, I feel like it's crazy you get older and you just, you're reluctant to tell people how old you are. So through gritted teeth, I am now 38 years old.

PJ Ellis (03:39)

gonna get on Wikipedia

Andy (03:46)

God, don't say that.

Luther Burrell (03:48)

And so you think about the nature of my life over the course of, you know, 20, let's say 23 years where I've been in and around that professional setup. It's been an absolute journey. been, it's taken an unwavering amount of discipline and will and routine to get to the levels that I managed to reach. And throughout that journey, you're always provided with purpose.

And every day you wake up with purpose and you fit into a team and you have certain routines and regimented sessions that you know that you have to conquer. You know that it has to be all about the team and not about Luther Burrell. But yet you also then have to think about how can Luther Burrell be the best version of himself for the team. And then that day comes when you no longer do this anymore and you think

crap, know, where, where, where do I go now? And so my last professional game was barbarians November, 2022 and the transition from that world of elite sport, because it's not the real world. No matter, you know, and I'm pretty sure every elite sportsman will tell you that it's not, you're not in the real world. You're in this entertainment business and

I would go into training, I'd have my kit done, I'd have my breakfast, my food, ⁓ medical expenses, doctor, dentist, you name it, physio, massage, everything, you name it, done. And I come away from it and I've got to figure out how to work a washing machine, use a cooker, ring up the NHS, register at the doctor's, ⁓ all of these things. I say that tongue in cheek, but...

I guess you understand the analogy that I'm referring to here. becomes a huge transition and a huge identity. I don't want say crisis, but you wake up a little bit lost. A little bit lost.

And you throw mud at the wall. I'll talk about my journey anyway here because I've had to throw mud at the wall to see what sticks and see and understand and understand where's Luther Burrell gonna position himself in society because all of a sudden I'm not the most important thing anymore. know, and so I've got mortgages, children, partners, bills, everything to carry on paying for.

with no regular income stream that can manage these day-to-day faculties. So that was one of the biggest hurdles for me in the early parts of my transition because...

I was quiet.

shy of looking inwardly and saying, you know what, Luther, you need to deconstruct yourself because you're not, you need to face fact that this is not what you're going to do anymore, but that doesn't mean that you're not going to be relevant or find relevance or be able to use everything that you've learned over the course of, you know, 20 years and put that into something good and energizing and fulfilling and do it with.

and find meaning through all of this struggle. So in Iran, I've told you a brief kind of spell in terms of why I use that word survival because

It's very much survival mode out there. know, nobody's coming to Luther Burrell with a magic wand and a silver spoon and going, here you go, come and do this or there you go, have that and I'll pay that for it. you have to find something in you and a passion. And sometimes, in fact, I'm going to take that back because it's not, sometimes you have to do stuff you don't want to do just to make ends meet actually.

And that, that itself is a humbling experience when you're doing things that you don't want to do, but you have to do it for the greater good. And that's just the position that you're in. And you know what? That's not where you're going to rest, but that is, is part of the journey to get into where you want to be. Six, 12, 18 months, 24 months down the line. Right. So, yeah, look, it's been, it's been a, it's been a humbling experience. One that I've, I've, I'm thriving in it now though.

I actually love it, you know, it's not normal really.

Because I'm still in this in this survival mode, right? Every single day. Okay. What's what's happening today? What do need to do? Okay. How can I, how can I attack it? How can I win the day? How can I seize these moments? How can I have this conversation with PJ and Andy and ultimately be the shed some light, shed some, some impact, but also keep it real authentic and honest as to what actually is going on in, in, in, in life and what professional sportsmen.

to go through when they come away from the sport.

Andy (09:02)

Yeah, it's an interesting reflection for me, Luther, is the reason we're chatting today is because of your foundation. A colleague of mine, Nick Brown, was in the room a few months ago when you were talking about your story. He put his hand up to get involved. David Muir is on your board. David then came to an exec dinner we did, never met David before. He went back, told Louis Hill, who put his hand up to help you, that he'd met me.

He knew we did a podcast and kind of made the connection. I think, so I totally get your story in the transition. It's the same if you're retiring from a company as well as, you know, having worked there for 40 years, you just can't put your identity on, on what you did. But is it, is it interesting when you kind of just think about that and go, realize how many people actually help you along the way versus, you know, what's the difference between who's helping you and you feeling like you've got to still do it for yourself?

Luther Burrell (10:00)

Yeah, that's a great question. One thing that I would say when people asked me probably six, six to 12 months ago, what I'm doing now, I would tell them I'm a professional networker and they would say, well, you get paid to network. I was like, yeah, but not in the currency that you're probably thinking. And that was essentially what I attacked. That's why I leaned into my network so heavily that I would just immerse myself into crowds that I...

was unfamiliar with. Like, you know, David Muir, he's massive in sort of tech and educational tech. And that was so alien to me. But through recommendation and a mutual connection, I was like, I need to be around David and understand a bit of his world and see if there's any synergy there. And then you think about, you know, whose chair in my board is Paul Hamer?

who is former CEO of Sir Robert McAlpine, multi-billion pound infrastructure there. You know, you think again, that just comes from the power of the network and leaning into these people that have walked down the path that you are hoping to walk down and they can navigate you. There's so many blind spots in, you know, on this journey that you need to surround yourself with people that can go, well,

You know, it's not blind anymore. This I want to shine a light on it because we've been there and done it. Therefore we're going to make sure that it's a little bit easier for you to walk down that path because we believe in buying to what you're trying to achieve here. So, um, yeah, 20 question, it's been, it's been amazing for me. And one thing that I used to say throughout my whole professional career is those you meet on the way up. You're always going to meet on the way back down.

So you need to treat everybody how you would like to be treated. You need to treat everybody with the integrity that you hope people would have towards you. You need to have a good moral compass.

And don't be afraid to lean into these people that are in these corporate boxes. So when I was injured playing for Northampton Saints or I was playing for England and I was injured, I would go to these corporate boxes and I would just meet the sponsors and have a chat with them. And before you know it, I know their grandparents and their kids and their kids birthday. And before you know it, you're part of the furniture. that's not...

That's not contrived. That's just through conversation and good people coming together. And I always believe that good people generally find good people. And if you can surround yourself with the right infrastructures and people that can advise you on this journey, you're going to set yourself up for some sort of success and contentment. that's ultimately where I find myself. Yes.

It's survival out there because you want to create more opportunities. want to, for me, I want to have more impact. I want to do more in the world. I want to have bigger, leave bigger footprints in the world. Because I don't know, I just feel I'm a very positive and have a positive outlook on life. And I want to help, I want to help as many individuals as possible from an impact, from an educational standpoint. I don't, I don't.

want to talk about this toxic positivity from a motivational standpoint, but people need an element of that in their day to day lives. So, you know, I'm striving to try and just create as much impact as I can.

PJ Ellis (13:46)

And I'm sure you are, mate. I've looked at the foundation. It's fantastic stuff that you do. I'm an ambassador for a charity called Sport For Life UK. Might be worth you guys talking, because you do some very things that will compliment one another. We'll talk about that in a bit. ⁓ Luther, barbarians, 2022, three years ago, right? ⁓ How can I put this right? If I was down in a pub now with you, I'd be saying, you're a geezer, good lad, great sportsman, know, done all the things that a lot of us would have just

Luther Burrell (13:59)

Definitely.

Mm-hmm.

PJ Ellis (14:16)

wish to have done, right? You find yourself in this transition in peace, you know, you find in this new identity, et cetera. And this is, I'm asking myself this question, so I find this difficult, but I know it's actually once you've got through it, you do find good people. Have you found it quite difficult to ask for help? And if people do find it difficult to ask for help, what would your advice be to those sort of people?

Luther Burrell (14:42)

Yeah, yeah, I struggled with that. Even throughout my my playing career and I had the best people in terms of coaches and and influences to help me on that journey. But even when you in those environments, you feel that's a sign of weakness. If I'm asking for help, then well, that means I'm not good enough. you know, it's a

I'm not as strong as what people believe that I am. So I can't ask for help. need to figure it out all on my own and just hope for the best and see what happens. And that was my mindset for long period of time. ⁓

Throughout my career, I broke down that barrier, that boundary that I'd put up there.

And guess what happened once that boundary was removed? My career went through the roof because I was developing a lot quicker and I was leaning in and having been more transparent with myself actually and being honest with myself and taking my own accountability because I needed to be better. I needed to evolve in certain areas of my career. So then you fast forward.

and you come out of the sport and you think, ⁓ no, okay, what do I do? ⁓ And you go back into that fight or flight type mode. And I was in the fight mode, but it was the wrong mode in terms of, I just felt I was gonna figure it all out on my own because I played for England and I'd won a premiership and that's enough to carry Luther through, it's fine.

you'd be all right, mate, because look what you've done. It's fine, people look. And actually, it turns out people do not care. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I think leaning into that and actually when I said to you, need to deconstruct myself, that was part of that. I needed to...

PJ Ellis (16:39)

Hahaha!

Andy (16:40)

That's right.

PJ Ellis (16:42)

Or

maybe assume you don't need the help. You know.

Luther Burrell (16:58)

look inwardly and say, know what, Lucy, you haven't got all the answers, mate, because you haven't you haven't been in the corporate space. Yeah, you're okay. might have done some appearances here, but you haven't been in that environment and lived it or at least surrounded yourself with people that have. So I started going to a networking event because I thought at first networking, you know, I don't know what am I going to talk about? What do I have to offer in these networking events?

And there's this stigma as well around, would they want to listen to me? It was like this, the complex that people have around.

been out place, not being good enough, uneducated, shall we say. And I thought, yeah, okay. So I went along, had a really great time, met some amazing people. It was free, coffee, free tea, free slices of pizza. So that was great. I thought, yeah, I'll do this again. And so I did. And then I went from one to another and my little black book now is amazing. I have so many contacts.

PJ Ellis (17:57)

in.

Luther Burrell (18:09)

learned so much on that journey and it's led me to do things like

Like I did a course for diverse leadership in the boardroom, for example, which I never thought I would do. ⁓ Like I say, it led me to be able to understand the governance of foundations and be aligned to certain companies. ⁓ You know, let's say meet David, meet Paul. All of these people that I have in my network now come from me openly admitting that I need to be stronger.

And the way that I do that is accepting that I need help. That's not a sign of weakness. And so my advice would be exactly that. Unfortunately, individually, you're not going to have all the answers. So you need to seek help in the best manner possible. And only positive things will come from that in the messages that you're trying to articulate.

You know, and when it comes to problems as well, you know, a problem shared is a problem halved. And that is such a true quote. Like it is because I've had so many problems thrown at me. And if I hadn't spoken to people within my network about them, you know, I honestly, don't know if I'd be here, gents, you know, because it's, it can be so heavy. It can be so emotionally taxing some of these, these adverse moments that come into your life. And if you don't find a way to have conversations.

And I think as a man, it's very difficult as well. I'm not just talking about the mental health side of things, but you know, sometimes men, we just think it's mature and we know everything and we can solve everything on our own. And that's that, especially coming from such a barbaric sport as rugby. But actually more strength comes from, from, from saying, do you know what? I don't have all the answers right now.

I'm not where I need to be. need to surround myself with people that have been there, that have done that, that can help me get to where I need to be in, like I said, six, 12 or 18 months time. And the only way I can do that is by swallowing my pride and saying, do you know what? Could I please have a little bit of guidance? Could I please just have a little bit of help in terms of what would you do in this situation? What do you think about this? This is where I'm at at the moment.

And these are the conversations. I've just literally had the conversation before we jumped on this podcast, literally exactly that conversation because I'm at a point in my life now where I'm trying to explore other avenues as well. ⁓ These guys, you know, they, couldn't believe that I was so vulnerable about exactly where I'm at and, know, what I'm trying to achieve. so you just, know, and the overriding message that I would say with that is that is ultimately a sign of.

One, healthy masculinity, but two, maturity and strength.

Andy (21:06)

Yeah, yeah. Just before we should probably talk about your playing career a little bit. I know we're not a sporting podcast, but I think it gives some good context, but just go back to that question you posed yourself there. What do I have to offer? Right. That's the question you said you didn't know the answer. Well, let's answer that question today. Right, Luther. What do you have to offer today then?

Luther Burrell (21:27)

Well, that is putting me on the spot, it? So I've lived a life that many people would dream to step into my life and is unique to me. No one can write my story for me and that itself is unique and an offering of its own. I have the ability to...

assist many, many different institutions, industries, generations as well, I would say, by the life exposure that I've had, the lessons that I've learned, the times that I've failed, picked myself back up.

By no means am I anywhere near where I'd like to go. There's still a lot more education and learnings that I need to take from people like yourself and other members of the public. today, I'm Luther Burrell. I've spent 18 years in elite sport. I'm the CEO of the 12 Foundation. I have a wealth of experience in...

performance culture, team disciplines and.

I'd like to think.

I'm an overall pretty decent bloke.

PJ Ellis (22:51)

Lovely way, what a lovely thing to say. I mean, that's enough, isn't it? You're an overall, you know, a decent bloke. Andy leads on his LinkedIn with Dad First, you know, it's a lovely way of at things. ⁓ Sport then, you you talk about that leadership, you know, that stuff that came out of, you know, what you've got to offer now around team, ship, culture, all that sort of stuff. Is there anyone specifically in your career, a captain, a gaffer that helped you with that?

Or there's too many to mention maybe?

Luther Burrell (23:21)

No, no, no, so look I've this is this is the nature of the this is why I believe I am quite a well-rounded

were around an individual at spotting poor management, good management, good leadership, poor leadership, because I've had some of the world's best coaches. I've also had some of the world's best coaches, but I'm not the world's best coaches, you know, if that makes sense. So they...

they have a negative effect on the group rather than perhaps the positive effect. I've had, so Jim Mallander, my coach at Northampton, he was fantastic to me.

Why? Because for the first time in my professional career, I was immersed into an environment where I felt I belonged.

You know, one of his first opening lines to me when I signed there was, know, Luther, we're going to give you everything that you need to make sure you can be the best player out there. And all we require from you is, you know, 100 % effort. And I just thought, wow. And that was a man that stuck to his word and not just him. There was Paul Grayson at the time who was...

Our backs coach who was phenomenal at that period of time for me and my development. He just, he really understood me as a, a, as a player. And we had, we had Dorian West, who was quite, quite a character as well. So you put these, these, these guys together and it just, it just worked. Unfortunately, Paul Grayson left and we got another backs coach in.

who was also a fantastic bloke in terms of my development.

why why they worked for me i'm to tell you in literally 10 seconds is because they would say to me luther

you go out onto that field and when you make a mistake, technical mistake, we're going to review it, but that's going to be that's going to be on us. So if I if I made a technical error like.

had really poor technique and I missed a tackle. Instantly in the game, would, that would be thinking, no, that's gonna pop up in Monday meeting. And so for the rest of the game, I'd be in my head. I'd be thinking, I've missed that tackle. And so I would have these conversations with the coaches that, know, I missed a tackle. All I think about is Monday meeting and they would go, okay, well.

what you need to not think about is Monday meeting because Luther, if you miss a tackle, that's not because you're not good enough. That's because we haven't done our job in technically teaching you how to tackle properly because you're brave enough. That's why you're here. You're good enough. That's why you're here. He said, so when it comes down to the technicalities, you know, that's our responsibility. So don't think about it too much. That doesn't mean Luther, you go out there and miss 20 tackles a game. You you still go out there and put your body on the line. But from a technical aspect, you know, if your technique's wrong,

Andy (26:20)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (26:20)

I'm

Luther Burrell (26:27)

That's on us. need to do a better job at coaching you. But Luther, what you need to be thinking about is if you're not getting up off the floor quick enough or that ball goes in the air and you're not running fast enough, you need to be in your head about that and us pulling you up for that on a Monday morning because that doesn't require talent. So you do all the stuff a hundred percent that doesn't require talent. You're fine.

Andy (26:48)

Yeah.

Luther Burrell (26:55)

Everything else we can we can work upon, you know, so don't be thinking anymore about Monday meeting because you might have thrown a ball into touch with poor technique or you've missed a tackle with poor technique. Don't worry about that. It's fine. That's our responsibility. What you can take control of is your effort. Make sure your efforts 100 percent and we'll be in a good place. And honestly, wow, the way that just was lifted, I was like, blow me neck. I could breathe. I could I could breathe, mate, because I was putting

PJ Ellis (27:21)

Thank

Love that.

Luther Burrell (27:25)

You

know, all this internal pressure. And so, I just, just, there's no surprise that my most successful years were at Northampton Saints. And, you know, the first year we were there, 2013, Premiership Final, first time in the club's history, we lost. Because, you know, we went down to 40 men in the final. That was a bit of controversy. One of our teammates got sent off for telling, saying the ref was a cheap.

That wasn't the best moment. Then the following year, 2014, get to the Premiership Final again and we win it. And 2014, I played for England and it's just, you know, I could go on and on about how these moments and these conversations allowed me to just breathe and go, right, okay, just put the effort in, just put the effort in every single day and everything will work out because you have the best.

managers and coaches to technically make me the best. So what I can control is my effort levels. And if I'm outworking those that are in a position of where I need to be. So, you know, let's think about the time at that moment in time, the centres were like a Billy 12 trees, a Brad Barrett and there were Jonathan Joseph, Manu Tuilang, these amazing centres. In my mind, I'm thinking, if I can outwork them.

then I'm going to be somewhere near getting myself selected for national honours because technically I'm going to be given everything else. They're going to technically teach me how to be the best rugby player. So what can I control? I can control my mindset, my discipline and my effort levels. ⁓ And then it will just come down to, you know, the decision making whilst you're in that pressure cooker and who essentially makes the best decisions when you're in the heat.

the heat of the battle.

PJ Ellis (29:24)

So I'm just jumping in. If you're enjoying these conversations, well, we are bringing those to life at Witton Grid live at Millennium Point in Birmingham on the 30th of January, 2026. real talk, life lessons, even a moment to breathe, proper takeaways you can use straight away. Get your tickets at wittongrid.co.uk It's going to be a good one, Bab. Right, let's get back to the conversation.

Andy (29:52)

Question, question. We've got a friend of the show, Luther, who was part of the Royal Marines team who put Gareth Southgate and Harry Kane through the paces in 2016-17 in preparation for the World Cup. And you've played for a few teams, you've played different codes, you started off doing rugby league and rugby union, you've done England. again, a lot of people who listen to this are focused on culture and building high performing teams. Is there a way that you've seen that how can you accelerate, what's the key?

to building a high performing team quickly.

Luther Burrell (30:26)

Yeah, so there's many different policies in there. think, excuse my language here, but there is the no dickhead policy. That is essentially one of the key fundamentals and that runs from military to elite sport. It's all about the people that you employ and the people that you surround yourself with and you create a culture within that where the culture filters that out.

So if there's people within that environment that are entitled, that are too self-absorbed, the what about me culture that you have built, or a leadership team that can instill certain values and boundaries to your peers that will filter out people that have the egos, the what about me movements, ⁓ people that are self-absorbed.

the arrogance and the people that have too much ego to...

to benefit the group. ⁓ How do you do that quickly? You've to stress test as quick as possible. As quick as possible, you've got to stress test. You've got to see what people are made of, what people are prepared to do. Are people committed to the cause? Are people just here for a good time? Are people just here because they want to clock in and clock out? You've got to find ways within your structure to stress test as quick as possible. Iron out some of these...

intricacies these creases because and everyone's everyone's different mate, know, you can't just say one size fits all and you gotta have you gotta have a culture where You know, it just fit but there are a certain set of rules that we go by every single day and One of the one at the top of the top of that ruling Should always be something along the lines of we're doing stuff that we do the stuff

that doesn't require talent to the absolute max. And then we focus on the, ⁓ the KPIs and then we focus on, the marketing campaigns and then we focus on, you know, making sure we're hitting our targets, but it's all up. It's about making sure that your environment first and foremost is a place where people feel valued and, and a sense of belonging so that they're going to do the extra bits of work that are going to be required when.

shit hits the fan essentially because that's gonna happen. That's nature of the beast. And so you want people that when that happens, they're your people and they're gonna stay on that front line and they're gonna continue to show up and deliver in that pressure moment.

PJ Ellis (33:15)

That level of allyship, think it was, was it Clive Woodward talked about that team ship sort of vibe, know, what does that look like, you know, turning up on time needs to look like the same to everyone within the team. And it's that sort of responsibility that you all take on to build that culture.

Luther Burrell (33:29)

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's exactly that. it's people within your environment. So if you're a leader and you're the boss, let's say, you want your people to manage themselves. within that, so you want them to have their standards. This is our set of rules. This is our set of guidelines. These are our standards. So you...

You know that if an employee is having to sit down in front of the CEO, something must have drastically gone wrong. So you want to create an environment where you actually, like you say, you have that allyship. Yes. And you hold each other to account. You have to hold each other to account. But that also works in terms of you can seek to, you can go to your peers for help. You can seek help within that because you've created that culture. So yes, if you get something wrong, we are going to hold you accountable.

PJ Ellis (34:08)

Yeah.

Luther Burrell (34:23)

But actually, do you know what? We're also gonna help you so that doesn't happen again. And then you build out certain blocks and foundations from there so that, you know, as a leader, you don't really have to do much then. You just need to make sure the ship is going in the right direction.

PJ Ellis (34:43)

That is bang on. Honestly, I wish I'd known that when I had a business many years ago. ⁓ Did you find that, know you've spoken publicly about things that you really are passionate about, racism in sport. ⁓ Did you see that allyship then? Did people follow you? Or did you actually see some people, for want of a better word, it and didn't support you when they probably should have?

Luther Burrell (34:47)

Thank

Andy (34:48)

Thank

Luther Burrell (35:09)

Yeah. ⁓

say one thing that I developed quite quickly is coming away from the sport is emotional intelligence. I had to really work on that. It helped having a really emotionally intelligent Mrs. She's great.

because in those moments I had to really think about you know what am I feeling okay what and then what are they feeling okay and what do these moments need from me right now you know because it would be so easy for me to I guess throw my toys out of the pram and just go into victim mode

with everything that's really transpired. And I could have gone about it, I could have gone about it in a different way. So let's just say that, lads, because you think about the catalog of people that have done this before me. So let's say Azeem Rafiq. So I know Azeem Rafiq because of moments like this, unfortunately, it brought us together and I know him. Now, Azeem went a different route to me.

he was actively playing and he him, him, him, him. Point the finger. While that was going on, I was thinking.

don't know really that's the right way to go about it because what that does is it gives a beautiful media outlet a place to go and shine a light and deflect the actual problem, know, and it did exactly that because then perpetrator gets all of this light and then so many people have

their say and it creates this whole media storm and then somebody else is over here doing the same thing. And actually it takes away what you're trying to achieve. To the point where so many people actually got involved with that particular case, you know, he's had to leave the country. You know, ⁓ and I thought, I don't want to be the person that...

Andy (37:22)

Hmm.

Luther Burrell (37:30)

could potentially hinder somebody else's lifestyle? So do I think there is room for change? Yes. If I air my particular moments of time and articulate them in the right manner, can I, do I really believe that I can create change, institutional change at that, which is

That's a big thing to do And I believe I believed it and so I went about it in a way where I want to name any players I'm gonna name Nothing like that. I'm gonna say this is my experience. This is what got said It's not acceptable. I've heard this here. This is where we need to go and People that have played with teammates He needs to listen

Point the finger back at me. Lucy you need what you're doing. Why are not naming name name name names name names do this? That is such a reactive thing to do and the whole Reason why I did it because one I don't want to be a victim and two. It's never about retribution. It's not about retribution I don't want to take anybody to court. I don't want to file a lawsuit. I don't want to make any money I want to I want to have Change generational change for the greater good of the sport because I love the sport. It has a transformative power. It served me so well and

It needs to be better. We need to have better standards. ⁓ And that was my mission. And I never strayed from it. Never strayed from it. And trust me, I had carrots dangled many a times. ⁓ I just, I never strayed. was like, right, this is where I want to go. And I'll tell you who were like some of my biggest allies, the female rugby team. And there's no surprise that, you know, earlier this year we've seen them making record numbers because they just get it.

They get it. They've been absolute trailblazers, you know, and they get it because they had discrimination for playing rugby as women. They had discrimination as black women playing rugby because she's got a rule, Muslim woman because she has to wear a hijab. know, women that said they should go, they belong in the kitchen, they shouldn't be on a rugby field, X, Y, Z, you know. They've had the discrimination for years, so they get it. And so when I spoke, they were like, I get this guy, I get him.

Yeah, they were great. like I said, there's no surprise as to why they managed to fill out Twickenham Stadium earlier this year the Homeworld Cup because they get it. They are unapologetically themselves. They are super authentic. They delve into the communities. You know, they're raw. They welcome everybody. They have honest conversations as well, by the way. Let's just lean into that a little bit. You know, they actually have the honest conversation and

They don't appear that everything is is is okay when when it's not they're not trying to look after themselves. They're actually trying to look after the team and the sport because they understand if that grows then they grow. So yeah, look. I could name on one hand the amount of players that reached out to me in that moment. In terms of in terms of support.

Andy (40:49)

Thank

Luther Burrell (40:54)

There's somebody I class as a close friend of mine now that worked for the Rugby Player Agency, the RPA, who was fundamental in terms of being a soundboard and giving me some direction. But I will say it was an extremely lonely place, lads. It was an extremely lonely place. And I'll tell you why, why, because there an investigation going on and the investigation initially, they wanted to be done internally.

And I said, I said, no, I said, don't want an internal investigation. think if we're going to have any sort of progress here, we need to get an outsource team in to do it properly. Because you do an internal investigation, you can paper paper over your cracks. You can, you can turn a blind eye to that and you know, just turn you back on that. And so I say, yeah, but that's okay. But that, you know, so we need to get an out, we need to get an outsource. And they did. I was really surprised that they actually did that. And then, you know,

the figures that came out were were humbling for them. Let's say say that the stats that came out. 69 % of people that they spoke to that had involvement in the professional game had faced discrimination of some sort. So that's a huge number. things needed to change. And it has. That's the let's just end it there in terms of this this topic, because

Andy (41:59)

Mm.

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (42:23)

Good.

Luther Burrell (42:25)

It wasn't all for nothing. And as much as it cost me a hell of a lot, it did. To this day, you know, it has. The mission was a success. And so I can sleep at night knowing that.

PJ Ellis (42:28)

Fair play mate, fair play.

Bravo mate, bravo.

Andy (42:47)

Yeah, well done, well done, mate. Total respect for that. And

as you say, let's move it on and leave it there. Right. Perfect. And so pleased to see it is moving on. And I love watching the red roses. They're fantastic. You know, really, really entertaining. So let's move forward then to the foundation. So you should maybe just tell us a little bit as why have you done this? Why have you set it up and what are you looking to achieve?

Luther Burrell (43:11)

Yeah, so I took myself to India to do some philanthropy work and ⁓

Throughout my career, as a professional sportsman, we often get told to go to children's hospice, children's hospital, and do some work in the community and help. It's massive part of rugby culture as well.

I used to thrive on doing it because if I think back to my early years, Luther Burrell being 12, Luther Burrell being 10 years old, I remember when these sports guys would come into schools and do a bit of coaching or bit of motivational conversations. I'd be like, wow, I remember. And I think about my heroes like John Olomu, for example.

and people that I looked up to like Jason Robinson and another one.

and these individuals that I kind of followed suit.

And I thought they had such impact on my life because of the community that I was from, because people of success didn't really come from the community. So when we had somebody come into the community that was successful, it was like, wow, amazing. And it just stuck with you forever. And so when I used to go out into the schools as a England rugby player or a Northampton Saints player, a Premiership winner,

and I would be in Northampton and they'd be like, oh my god, look at the Braille bar, look around these kids, you're thinking, these people are so bothered just to see me. And you put a smile on these children's faces. And I loved it, it really filled my cup up, being able to inspire and have an impact from a career standpoint. And so I took myself to India, to Calcutta, to do some charity work and...

It was in the midst of all of this that we've just delved into.

and you think.

Blominec, I feel like my world is coming in, like the walls are just, the pressure's building. And I come to India, to Kolkata, and I spent four days with the community and these children. And it made me feel like the problems I was catastrophizing were nothing.

They were nothing because I never I was pleasantly taken aback. I never felt Rugby could have such impact in a place like India. I should have known better by the name Kolkata because when I when I when I went to one of the venues This is these these gentlemen came to meet me. These are these local Indian men. They were like Luther

I like, hi lads, are okay? Come on, come on, let me show you, let me show you, let me show you. And they took me into the, and I'm talking this clubhouse, wasn't anything spectacular. It was like a traditional, like Sunday league type clubhouse. And they take me in and they're taking me in and there's all these like crazy patterns and decor. I think it was like Diwali around that time as well. Yeah, it was. So it was like, it was a bit crazy. And he's like, come on, come on, come on. He's literally dragging me, this fella.

It's all these mountains about 17. He's dragging me. He's dragging me. Okay, we go. We go and he takes me upstairs to this cabinet and it's going look look look look look and I said what he's like this you you and this you and this and he was like The cold cuts a cup the original cold cut a cup was there and I was going Like I was like what's going on I couldn't believe it I couldn't believe it and so he then

Andy (46:56)

⁓ wow.

Luther Burrell (47:04)

looked after me and he took me into the community and every morning I would work with these these children about 40 children and we'd walk about a mile every morning and a couple of mornings it was it was dry and humid but it was it's you know that wet kind of humidity in the air it was not great but we'd go around to these houses and we'd pick the children up but they won't I say houses their house is a a steel tent with

perhaps some of them has no real doors on. And it's about the size of utility rooms, some of them.

some of them just a little bit bigger and they've got a family of five in there.

No clean running water, know, no cookers, no washing machine, things like that.

Yet the children every single morning, the biggest smile on their face, parents biggest smile on their face, they're welcoming me, come and look at my house, please let me show you in my house. Like so proud of where they live. And I'm telling you, I could barely fit in the door. I know I am six foot four and 17 stone. I could barely fit into the door. You know, if I sat down, I was scared that I was going to break something. So I actually...

politely sometimes declined, which they took offence to, so then I had to just go in and immerse myself in there. But I was doing it because I didn't want to break anything. So when I was doing this work and I seeing how happy these children were that I was there.

Not only just because I was there and they knew I was this sports person, they didn't know that I was anybody, you know, from like Tom, Dick and Harry. They just knew that I was, I'd done something. They know what, but they knew I'd done something. And it filled up their cup with so much joy. And so we would walk, need to, I should find the picture for you. We would walk through the village and we'd pick the children up and the parents would be like, okay, come on, take them.

And we'd walk mile to the, to the, this little piece of grass and it was next to a flyover where people would just fly over, throw the rubbish out, cans, glass bottles, you you name it. It was there. And so we'd have to sort of walk the line, get in the line, we'd pick up all the crap before the training session started. Well, they'd do that with such joy, you know, it'd be like a little game to them. It just didn't matter. And then we'd start playing and

the absolute elation and joy and they just had no worries whatsoever because they had a rubber ball in their hands, they were with their friends and they were with their coaches and little community workers and this is what they look forward to doing every single day and I just thought to myself...

My problems are nothing really comparatively. I'm blowing up things that I can't control in my life. Catastrophizing so much that I can't really control. Just enjoy, enjoy your life. know, enjoy what you're doing. Enjoy being here. Enjoy being in the moment. You know, enjoy being present. You know, don't be putting too much pressure on yourself. And it was breathtaking. And so on the flight home.

I was on my phone and my laptop and I was thinking, I came setting up a charity and started doing this and then I put a few things together and then I spoke to one company and they put something together for me. It wasn't quite right. And then I went back to the drawing boards and then I met, I spoke to a couple of people from Northampton that used to me when I was at Northampton. And then they put me in touch with David and then David was like, right, let's do it. This is that, is this, I'm buying into this. I love it. It's great. I'm buying into you like the energy and.

what you're trying to achieve. And it's amazing that how many people like good people find good people and good people generally just help and have impact. Right. And for me, that was my mantra. But it led me down the path of looking at poverty and homelessness and access to sport in our country, because I would think it would just be there. It just be there and everyone's doorstep. But it's not, you know, it's simply not there.

And I'm going to tell you a story that a success story from this. We've not been going long, by the way, but I'm going tell you a story because it literally made me cry.

I down to a school to do some stuff and it was sort of East London and we do this T1 rugby concept where it's just, it's like touch but you set up a scrum and it's just pass, pass, pass and run and create and these children run all over the gaff and they're having an amazing time.

They loved having me there again because they didn't know who I was. It's not like, you know, ⁓ bloody Cristiano Ronaldo. Like there would no Cristiano Ronaldo if you walk through the door, but they loved the fact that they could see a piece of themselves in me and they knew that I'd achieve something in life and they bought into that. And it's that relatability concept, isn't it? If you can be somewhat relatable, then people are going to buy into who you are and what messaging you're trying to portray. so, ⁓

I went down and I spoke to them and we did a bit of a Q and A and we played the rugby and the T1. before I get onto the one individual, I'll tell you some of the questions that really made me laugh. also told me that we're onto the right thing here is, um, Luther, so how long you played rugby? Yeah, I can't play rugby for this in here. Okay. Sweet. So Luther, what car do you drive? Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, okay. Yeah, sweet.

PJ Ellis (52:49)

Yeah, I you were gonna say something like that.

Luther Burrell (52:56)

Nice, Uther, yeah, yes sir. How many bedrooms does your house got? I was like, yeah, yeah, okay, next question, okay. So when you played for England, did you make a lot of money? I was thinking, and I was honest with them, you know, I said, look, when we played for England, it was like, know, 20, 20 or a thousand pound a game, you know, and then when you play for contract, this is sort of money you can make.

Andy (53:02)

All right.

PJ Ellis (53:12)

Yeah.

Luther Burrell (53:25)

You know, I grew up in a, in a two up, two down house in a very rundown area, kids, you know, and I got out and I made something of my life because I wasn't, I wasn't falling victim to my circumstances. And my overriding messaging here is some of you may not be in the best circumstances, but you don't have to fall victim to them. You know, you don't have to fall victim to them circumstances. You can choose which path you want to go down.

I said is the one thing in life that you will always be able to control. It is your choices, children. It is your choices. So if you make tough, positive choices, nine times out of 10, you will be OK. You will be OK in the end. And let me just lead you on to this this one, lad. And I picked up on him.

like a radar, guess just must be the performance element of my brain. I just thought this kid is he's like a gazelle. You know, he was just never played with me in his life. Like a gazelle. like flapping neck. So I went to the teacher and I looked at him and you know, I seen he had he's wearing the old plimsolls, you know, the old school like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, you wear them, you think you're really rapid in them, aren't you? But they're no good.

PJ Ellis (54:37)

Yeah, the black ones here, the little slip on ones here.

Thank

Andy (54:45)

you

Luther Burrell (54:46)

They're no good for concrete, let me tell you. So that itself was like a flippin' We need to be able to tackle that element and provide something there. But that's somewhere down the line. ⁓ Them shoes, the particular shoes were from lost property. So was like crazy. Didn't even have access to his own shoes. ⁓

And in my head at that moment, I'm thinking, what have I got in the car? What have I got? must have, I think I had some Yeezys in the car and I'm thinking, I'll just go and get my Yeezys. I don't even wear them anymore. I was going to get them. Then I'm thinking, if I do that, then I'm going have to find another 20 pairs for the rest of the kids. So, so I can't, I can't do that. I can't do that. ⁓ so I had to, I just had to swallow that. But I said to them, I said to them, I said to the, B.T. teacher, said, he's, he's got some up, but he's really enjoying himself.

PJ Ellis (55:27)

Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Luther Burrell (55:43)

bought into his rat, what an athlete, unbelievable. And I just kind of said to him, said, mate, I said, you've got something about you. I said, you absolutely amazing athlete and never played before. He was like, no, I said, do you enjoy it? said, yeah, mate, it's great. Like I loved it. His big smile on his face. I was like, mate, amazing, amazing. Well, well done. I thank you for your effort type thing. Um, I wasn't trying to push him into anything, just sort of saying, you know, you have got something there. You should probably look at.

leaning into that. Anyway, month and a half later, get a phone call. School, he's joined the local rugby club, up, they've looked after him, boots, trainers, kit, you name it, is there, of the star players, better behaviour in school, just an all-around better young man and I'm thinking, honestly I was emotional, thinking this is why we do it, this is why we do it.

Andy (56:25)

Thank you.

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (56:39)

Yeah.

Luther Burrell (56:41)

You know, improve attendance, it sorts the discipline out. They have a sense of belonging. You can also help with other elements, like putting clothes on their backs, sometimes food in their bellies, you know, and also it's creating opportunity, right, for something that they didn't know before. So I honestly, even I have this conversation, I'm like, I've got a little bit here that's just what's to be emotional, you know. So that's, ⁓

Andy (57:04)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (57:08)

I'm rightly so, mate.

Luther Burrell (57:11)

I'm not sure that's why we do it and it's why I have to do it. And I said to you, why not me? Why not me? And like I said to you before, I remember those, let's say superstars or celebrities, sports people, whoever they were at the time, would come into school and ⁓ see us. And it would be from like the local.

Andy (57:20)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (57:22)

Why not?

Luther Burrell (57:39)

Huddersfield Rugby Club, Huddersfield Giants rugby team or local, you know, Huddersfield Town football team or something like that. Then I remember that. So why not be that person? It has to be me that has to go and do that because, you know, no, no one can tell my story better than me.

Andy (57:58)

effect.

PJ Ellis (57:58)

100

% man, I absolutely love that. absolutely love that. That's where it went all wrong for me then because We just had like the animal man used to come in to remember him used to come in with like snakes and that and Eagles we didn't have like inspirational sports people we just had a gaze that come in with like a parrot ⁓ Luther we could talk to you all day. Honestly, it's been a real privilege. Thank you for your time I know you're a busy guy and

Luther Burrell (58:11)

Yeah.

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (58:21)

But we always end with a few takeaways mate, cause I mean, there's quite a few, right? And there'll be a lot more than I say here, but check this out.

Good people will find good people. Throw mud at the wall until the good thing sticks. Be honest with yourself. No one is coming to you with a magic wand. Those that you meet on the way up, you'll meet on the way back down. Power of deconstructing yourself. ⁓ Always have a no dickhead policy, but stress test this ASAP. ⁓ man, I could go on. The importance of breathing. Focus on the controllables.

Problem shared is a problem halved. Luther, you are doing brilliant things. Continue to inspire and impact, like you've said, with a capital I, mate.

Luther Burrell (59:07)

Thank you, lads. Honestly, it's been great. been great. I love being able to just share my story as well, mate, with good people.