Welcome to the Peak Revival Podcast.

My name is Ner.

Today we are having a special episode where it's behind the scenes of me and

my work, and I'm being interviewed by my lovely co-host, Melissa, who is on my

team, who is the head coach on my team.

So welcome Melissa.

you so much for having me.

I'm very interested to get to know you a little bit better, and I'm sure

all of your listeners are as well.

Dig deep for the questions.

All right.

All of these questions have been drawn from your active

BBB community at the moment.

So as you mentioned, I do run the Buy buy burnout program.

I am the head coach there, and I've reached out to all our lovely participants

and all our lovely clients, and then we've put together a list of questions for you

that we are all very curious to know.

So

let's jump in.

Let's jump in.

in.

Uh, I think first and foremost, people wanna know, how did you get here?

you have obviously a naturopathic background.

All of your work was created from this experience.

Um, what did those clinic days look like and how did you get here?

Clinic days were very busy.

So I was in clinic for about 10 years and I loved it.

Like I was the person who went straight into clinic after she graduated.

Right?

I was one of the very few, and it was nerve wracking, but I loved it.

And I remember at one point for a very brief moment, I went working

for another company actually called Nature Sunshine Company, if

you've ever seen their supplements.

And I worked with them and I wasn't in the clinic, so it was a full-time job.

And I think I lasted about three months.

And I was like, I can't do this.

I just love to be in clinic.

Right?

And so I quit.

They were really unhappy with me.

And then I went back to my sweet spot, which is being in the clinic.

So I loved working with people, I loved helping people.

I love this work.

growing up, you know, we went to see the naturopath and the homeopath.

We didn't go to see the GP much at all, my mom cooked everything.

Everything was organic and nutrition.

And so that was a big part of my upbringing.

And so, when I was about 13, 14, I was like.

You know, in school people were like, what do you wanna do when you finish?

I said, I wanna be a naturopath.

And people were like, oh yeah, that makes sense.

People were already like, that makes sense.

Right.

And um, so from a young age, I knew what I wanted to do, loved being in clinic.

And then, you know, clinic also has a lot of challenges as

well because you're very busy.

Well, I was, anyway, it was like back to back six days a week and there's,

you know, a business to run as well.

So it's not just the naturopathic side.

There is a business side as well, which I think that when you graduate,

you don't know the business side.

You are just well trained to be a naturopath.

You do so many clinic hours and you're just immersed in this stuff,

but not the business side of things.

And I didn't.

Love the business side of things.

I liked it, but I didn't love it.

And as a bus, you know, the clinic was very busy and I just got to this

0.1 day where I was, you know, it consumed a lot of my life, right?

I was, you know, thinking about work, I was thinking about my

patients, on after work and time off.

And I always looked a bit, I always looked stressed, right?

And obviously I'd hit burnout.

and I remember having this moment in the clinic one day.

I was standing in my dispensary.

I was in between patients and I just stood there and there was all

this, you know, people from the next door shop were coming in talking.

And the other guy that I, you know, the acupuncturist that I was working with,

he was talking, I was just had this moment, you know, it was like a flash.

And I went, five years from now, my life is going to be exactly the same.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I was like, I can't do this

anymore.

I actually can't do this anymore, even though I loved

it, but I just couldn't do it.

I knew I just couldn't do it anymore.

And it was in that moment that I went, you know what?

I am going to leave the practice.

And everyone, like, I have to say, everyone was against me on that decision.

Like everyone close to me was like, you're crazy.

Like this is such a great practice, you know, such a great business.

And I was like, yeah, but I just wanna do things differently.

I wanted, I wanted a break first, and then I wanted to do

things differently and bigger.

And so when I finished up in practice, I remember it being a really hard,

you know, hard to leave, right?

Because, you know, I had so many patients, right?

Over the years I had, I had so built up such a relationship with my clients

that, people were crying like I was crying, you know, I was crying.

People were crying.

It was really hard.

Anyway, it was a hard moment.

And, um, and I remember when I had a break and I was like, I don't

think I'll ever go back to business.

I was like, I don't wanna do business anymore.

It's too hard.

It's too, oh, it's consuming right.

But I didn't know then what I know now.

Like I don't find it like that Now.

I definitely, if I knew then what I know now, I'd probably, I may

still be in practice, but I do much prefer what I'm doing now.

but if I understood, yeah, like the things that I understand now, it would've

been an easier process for me or an easier journey to, to run the clinic and

the business being as busy as it was.

And so the days in clinic We are busy.

Lots of, lots of clinical experience, you know, seeing lots of different things

and helping people in all sorts of ways.

And the way I specialized in burnout was I went through burnout.

And the other thing that I saw in my practice was everyone had some element of

stress that was really holding them back.

And at the time I didn't know how to help them.

Like, I would sit there and I'd ask them what else is going on?

Like, and they'd be like, oh, you know, just family, my children, my

partner, my, you know, finances, my health, like, whatever it is.

And I would just listen.

And that was the best I could do then.

'cause I, I couldn't coach them.

I couldn't really help them in that way.

So I thought, but listening was a

lot.

was really transformative for them because no one was listening, like

they weren't talking about it.

We see that a lot on the calls too, where, you know, we, we, we host the

weekly coaching calls with the Bye-bye burnout program, where women are able

to come and discuss what's going on in their lives and get a little bit more

in depth and personalized support.

And on these calls, a lot of the times it is just wanting that space to be

heard, wanting somebody to listen and somebody to put intention and care

into what's going on in their lives.

Because sometimes you don't have these outlets.

Not everybody has these outlets to be able to just talk to.

Today, I felt bloated and I felt tired, and I felt right, like just having that

space to let it go is really powerful.

It is really powerful.

That's, you know, it's definitely what I've seen in my work.

Like I think, you know, now we talk to chat GBT or whatever, do

you know, like it's not the same because it's something about that

relationship, you know, with the practitioner and with your patient that.

Does a lot of the healing work.

Like actually they proved this scientifically.

Like they, you know, I went very much into the placebo effection,

understanding why some people get better and some people don't.

Because that's something that I saw in my clinic.

You know, some people were doing all the right things and they

weren't getting better and it's just like, that is really weird.

Right.

and when I understood more about, you know.

The placebo effect, how the mind influences the body to heal.

And that all comes down to the nervous system.

And then they did this a piece of research where one of the scientists or professors

he, he basically told his patients in this study that they were receiving a placebo.

Like it wasn't hidden.

He was just like, I wanna see what happens here.

I'm gonna tell them, here is your vial of medicine, but it's placebo.

They're just sugar pills.

And what he found is that his patients still got

better.

And what he put it down to was the relationship between the

practitioner and the patient.

So that being heard, that being held, that having that space, you

know, was actually just as medicinal as anything you are going to put

in as a supplemental medicine.

Right.

And you know, that's something that we've recreated online

because yes, that one-on-one relationship is really powerful.

But I noticed when I started Byebye Burnout online, actually the group is even

more

powerful, which I didn't think.

Was something that was ever gonna be like that.

I never, I never thought, I really did think that you needed the one-on-one.

Like I was

convinced.

And then when I took it online and I saw the transformations, like you see it all

the time in the group, the changes it that people, it's like, it's incredible.

The community is super, it's really important in this healing space because

so often, especially with online programs, people are managing these things.

On their own and they feel like they're alone.

And when you feel like you're alone in your healing process, you feel like

you can never get better because there must be something wrong with me, right?

I am.

This is only happening to me and I'm the special case and something will go wrong

'cause I have this, this, this, and this.

And then you get into a community and you're like, whoa, you have that too.

Like you feel that way too.

And then it gives this spark of hope of.

Wow.

Like I'm not alone in this.

And it is possible to feel, seen and feel heard and be supported

and create new pathways for healing that rely on connection and

relation and supporting each other.

And that really is what the benefit of those calls is.

And of that space is that community space.

So yeah, I see it.

I see it all the time that face-to-face, um, and the importance of community.

Um, but I'm curious for you, now that you are outside of that space, now

that you are now running these programs online, do you miss being in practice?

I don't miss being in clinical practice like, you know, back to back appointments.

Um, and I still obviously have private clients, but I do like

doing things in a bigger space.

I do love doing group calls, like I have to say, like the bigger group stuff is

really kind of where my jam is right now.

That really.

That is really satisfying for me.

and there's something about holding that space as well, which I find, like

when you have women on the call, like, everyone's holding that space together.

And if you don't know what I mean, like, it's kind of hard to describe what that

means holding the space, but there's some kind of energetic shift that happens

on those calls where kind of everyone is contributing in some way and It's

like, yeah, you don't feel alone or you all feel kind of in the same boat.

And there's something hopeful about that because you're all on this journey

together and there's just, there's so much to that that a one-on-one

interaction is not gonna give you.

And the other thing is with the online space, is that you

guys are in the group every

day.

And so they're getting responses every day.

You don't have to wait to see me in two weeks time to get

your question answered, right?

You're getting answers daily, so that makes a huge difference because if you

have a question or a concern or a doubt, and you're not sure, like that is going

to stop you from doing or moving forward.

I do.

Uh, I love the online space.

I love the group work.

And that's something like for 2026, you know, if you heard my podcast at the end

of 2025, I really talked about how, you know, I wanna build, you know, Esther

Perel, you know that relationship coach?

She was talking about building your village or your tribe.

And I'm like, yes, that's what I wanna do for my personal life.

Build the village, but I also wanna do that in my business.

And that to me looks like doing more in-person stuff, like doing

retreats, doing bigger group stuff.

Yeah.

I love that.

I love that.

That's beautiful.

what did you find was missing in the wellness space that made

you feel compelled to create the Bye-bye burnout program.

Yeah, so it was definitely, I went through a lot of iterations

because it was my own journey.

So the nutrition and the supplements all very important.

But I, as I mentioned, I was going through the, you know, the placebo

effect, how, what are the other ways that people get better without any treatment?

And so I really explored that area for many years and the work that I

was doing with my clients was, forget about supplements and, you know,

herbs, we are just gonna focus on mindset and your stress and, and your

bad relationships and habits and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Right?

And I thought, this is, this is it, this is the key difference.

Right?

But actually the results were really lackluster.

They weren't that good.

And I was like, Hmm, this is really interesting.

Okay.

So, and then I combined them.

I went to the extreme of it's all this and then it's all this, and then combining

them was where the magic really happened.

That's where the, the biggest results, the fastest results, the results that

we see in the community, it's like, wow.

that's where that happened.

So really understanding, yes, physiologically, you know, changing our

nutrition and changing our biochemistry and reducing our stress, but also going.

Beyond the body, like in a sense of let's go further upstream.

Like what's going on in the mind, what's going on in your life?

Like that's something that we really don't explore.

We explore it in a sense of, gotta get over it, gotta get tough.

I gotta push through, gotta overcome my behaviors, you know?

That's not really understanding it, right?

That's just kind of trying to put some more pressure on yourself, but really

understanding how the mind works and, and how we operate and where our life is at

and where do we really need to kind of step back and see where the deficiencies

and where's the excess in our life.

Where are the gaps?

and spending a bit of time there.

So really looking at the, you know, the body, the nutrition, but also the

mind and the spirit of the person.

Do you know, it's not just about, the physiological stuff, it's also, you

know, you as a spirit, as a person.

are you having your spiritual needs met?

You mentioned this kind of all or nothing mindset.

and this is something that I see a lot in the program with the women

who are moving through the program.

And when they feel as though they can't do everything perfectly,

they abandon it completely.

I think we all have this perfectionist mindset.

You speak about it on your podcast, you speak about it in the program.

Um.

If you couldn't do something perfectly, would you completely abandon it?

And how does this mindset of perfection actually drive burnout rather than

creating a pathway for success?

Yeah, I think at the end of the day, like I remember years ago I was on a podcast

and I, and it's something like Freedom Wellness or something, and I thought.

Yes, that's what it's about.

Wellness and health should be about freedom, not about risk, not about

like this perfectionist routine that's, makes you feel anxious or

that if you're not doing it a hundred percent correctly, then you're failing.

Like, health should be about freedom.

It shouldn't be about, you know, being so all or nothing, right?

All or nothing.

I don't, I don't do all or nothing in my life.

I look at that as just a, a way that we sabotage ourselves from

getting the results that we want.

That's actually really a sabotage habit.

So when people come into the program, I am, and even with my

private clients, I'm like, what?

'cause people say to me, oh, if I can't do all of these things,

it's not even worth it, is it?

I'm like, even if you did just one thing.

Just one.

And you did that consistently, you would get results.

Like you would see a massive shift in say, six weeks, right?

You just did one thing.

So this idea that we need to do everything in the perfect order, in

the perfect way, you're just not going to have a perfect week, six weeks,

three months, it doesn't exist, right?

And so as long as you can be consistent.

And you know, even with the BA burnout program, we look at like 80%,

like no one sticks to it a hundred

percent.

If they stick to it, 80%, that's, that's where the results are, right?

That's, that's pretty much what the people who are going gangbusters,

they're doing about 80% of it.

You know, they're having some bad days.

They're falling off the wagon, but they're getting straight back on because

they have nothing on it, because they don't have the all or nothing attitude.

That attitude it derails people and then they're like, oh, I can't stick to this.

This is just another thing I can't stick to, you know, I'm,

I'm gonna try something else.

And then they just keep repeating the same pattern, so.

all or nothing I don't do, I just, I like to add things into my life bit by

bit.

And that's why the program's delivered like that, right?

It's delivered exactly how I like to do things is like bit by bit and you're

stacking habits, so it feels not, not overwhelming, it feels almost effortless

and there's no pressure behind it.

So I think people really wanna know because coming back to this all or nothing

mindset, the perfectionist mindset.

Obviously people you will have bad days.

It is normal to have bad days.

It's normal to just have those.

Days where it's not happening, you know, things aren't working properly, and if one

little thing goes wrong, it just blows up.

We, you know, you talk about this a lot with, in regards to bandwidth, but I think

people are really curious and want to know what does a bad day look like for you?

how throughout this process and all of the learning that you've,

you've developed, how have your thoughts changed on those days?

So what was it like, maybe what did a bad day look like before versus now?

Well, definitely before it was different.

So if I had a bad day before, I would be the person who would

catastrophize about problems.

Like something happened in the business, I'd be like, oh my gosh, this is so bad.

This is so bad.

I would be stressing about it.

I'd be thinking about it.

I'd be talking to someone about it.

Like, this is so bad, so bad.

So I would really catastrophize problems.

And then my bad day was all day.

that's in terms of something happening in my day, but I could still have

a bad day food wise, you know, where you have a complete blowout.

And I think the difference today compared to back then, because you know, I, I speak

to people, I have friends who are really.

Rigid with their diet and you know, we do Christmas lunches and things

like that, and you'll see me, I'll eat gluten, I'll have a glass of wine.

I'll do the things that even though I don't do the majority

of the time, I would do them at those times because I'm not rigid.

I used to be rigid and it was really unhealthy for me.

I had so many food issues.

I had so much food anxiety that everything I ate reacted.

In my gut.

And I just, you know, I remember my mom saying to me at one point years ago,

she goes, it's like you curse your food.

And I was like, yeah, because I can't eat that.

I can't eat that.

This is bad, that's bad and this is bad for this reason and that reason.

It was just like, oh my gosh.

And so when I see people like that, like I would never slip back at into that pattern

because I don't think that's healthy.

I think we are more resilient than.

Every single morsel of food is gonna bring us down.

Like, you know, I talked about, um, this was really funny on that

episode of the diary of a CEO

we were talking about this last weekend, me and some friends, how.

Steven, what's his name?

Bar Bartlett.

He said that he had two glasses of wine and then that night he didn't

sleep properly, and then the next day it threw him out all day with

his workload and his podcasting.

And then actually for the next three days, he said it took him three

days to get back into his normal routine from two glasses of wine.

Yeah.

And someone in the comments below said.

Wow, how soft do you have to be?

And I, and I thought that was hilarious because that's what I like, that,

um, that's my personal opinion too.

Like, I don't want to be so optimized that I can't handle two glasses of

wine, and then my three day half my week is thrown out like that.

That doesn't seem optimized to me, I'm not ever that rigid, right?

Where there's these really hard rules and it's very distressing and it's

very hard to keep to them, and it can suck the joy out of life, right?

You go to nice events with people and there's nice food and

you're like, I can't eat this.

I can't eat that.

I can't eat this, you know, look healing during the healing phase.

Obviously we talk about in the program that's important, that's a hundred

percent important, but that's, you know, six weeks, eight weeks out of your life.

and, and maybe if it's longer too, that's okay as well, but.

You know, I think overall, like you wanna enjoy life, you wanna have

freedom, you wanna have freedom with food, that's really important.

And so my bad days now, the other day, I think when we were talking about prepping

this podcast, I was like, that day I was like, yeah, well I didn't, didn't

have breakfast until like lunchtime, like I broke my own rules, you know?

'cause it was such a busy morning.

I had appointments and I had meetings and it was like from

6:00 AM it was back to back.

but I was okay because I'm not burnt out anymore.

Right.

When I don't stick to a routine, I don't carry as much, there's

not as much weight on that, right?

I'm not like, oh, I've broken it.

It's a bad day.

This is really bad.

Like I broke my, I've ruined my whole week.

Now I've gotta start back again.

And do you know, you know, that's the stuff that I hear that a lot of people do.

So I just look, I'm just straight back on the next meal,

straight back on, you know, back into my habits.

And a bad day to me is not.

The catastrophe that it was before.

So the days that I have low bandwidth, I just know that I have low bandwidth

and I'm just like, you know what?

You have no bandwidth.

You're not gonna get this done right now.

You need to just take a break for five minutes or do something

else until your mind creates more bandwidth and then you can come

back to it.

And that has served me very well.

It's allowed me to do a lot more work, get a lot more done, be very productive

without feeling that catastrophe at all.

But also without that overwhelming

Mm-hmm.

And so speaking of low bandwidth, you know, like we, you talked a lot

about what they are and how you can handle them, but how can women tell

the difference between laziness?

And low nervous system capacity.

laziness is just not ever normally laziness because there is still a

metabolic process that's happening there.

So either they don't have the energy.

Right, or they're in that kind of freeze response, right?

That, that they can't actually do another thing.

They have zero capacity.

So one of the things that I see with women who are, are burnt out, who have

mitochondrial dysfunction, uh, they just don't have that energy production.

And so it looks like laziness, but really they just don't have that energy.

The body is conserving their energy.

Whatever it has, you know, for metabolic processes, it's not,

there's not enough overflow.

to do things that they need to do because really a high think

something like exercise, right?

Our desire to exercise is a natural desire due to a surplus of energy.

It's not as if we have to go, okay, now I've gotta go to the gym.

I'm so tired, I can't be bothered, I'm so lazy, whatever.

No, actually there isn't a surplus of energy there, so therefore you're using

your willpower to push you through.

and in terms of the nervous system, quite often people stuck in that freeze response

Hmm.

won't be able to do more.

They won't recognize why, but they just have such a small capacity to

take anything new on, and so everything feels like it's just too hard.

It's just too much.

I can't, like the, the brain just goes, no.

Right.

So.

laziness, unless, you know, like even teenagers, like that's about the

only example I would give laziness.

And, but still they're going through a massive growth spurt, so that's

why the energy's being used to grow.

Um, and that's why it looks like laziness.

So very rarely just laziness.

There's a lot more going on internally.

Mm. Yeah.

'cause again, I see this a lot in the, in the calls and in the community

where people feel like on those days where they have low bandwidth, if

they stop that internal dialogue that they have with themself is,

I'm lazy, I'm not good enough.

Um, what would you say to these women when they're having these.

Thoughts of I'm not good enough.

I have to continually keep doing and keep moving and keep going and

pushing through in order to feel enough and to feel like you've had a good,

successful day, that you feel worthy.

Yeah, it's interesting.

Like I, I feel like, uh, that's more of a habitual pattern.

So, you know, if you don't have a productive day, how does

that make you less good enough?

if your output is, determines whether you are good enough, then yeah, you're

gonna have days where your, your sense of self-esteem is gonna fluctuate because

you are, you're basing it on external output, which is, is not the case.

Right.

We are.

You know, we are good enough.

We, we, we should, you know, that's just not being able to tap into that

self-esteem or that confidence because the mind is telling us other things.

Right?

Oh, you did that really badly.

I can't believe you said that.

That's so embarrassing.

You know, like, like that's just the mind, right?

But you know, when the mind quietens down, you don't feel

like you're not good enough.

Right?

You don't even think about it.

It's not even something that comes up.

But it's only when we are being super hypercritical because our mind takes over.

That we start to then go, well, if I do more, then I'm

enough.

that's a losing battle tying, tying your self-esteem to your output.

And I think that's a really hard one.

I've done podcasts on that because I've definitely seen that for myself, that,

you know, if I'm achieving, then I'm enough, you know?

But that, that's a trap because the goalpost is always

moving.

You know, and I think as soon as you can get awareness and disconnect from output

and productivity and achievement and just know that that sense of enoughness

is something that you are, is a feeling that you're connected to when you don't

have a lot of crap going on in your head,

No.

when you're more centered, when you're more quiet, that's,

that's a natural feeling.

What are some of the unspoken things that you've learned from helping over

10,000 women throughout the program?

Yeah, so I guess some of the things that we haven't spoken about is.

You know, I talk about in the program the rescuer profile,

you know, the rescuer mindset.

And again, I'm bringing a lot of my case studies into this because, you know,

that's something I discovered for myself.

So a rescuer is someone who is always rescuing people in a sense

of, overcommitting to things, helping everyone leaving themselves last,

and then, they can become resentful.

And so.

It takes up a lot of your, your time and your space and

your bandwidth and your energy.

so I'll give you an example that, you know, in my work, I have had

moments and a lot of moments that I'm like, I just wanna make it as easy

as possible for them to do so easy.

And then if they don't find it easy, well then that's on me.

I need to make it easier.

Like I then make a breakdown easier, make it more clear, whatever.

Right?

And I got to that point where I realized.

the fact that they, you know, if someone's struggling with

something, then that's not.

You know, it's not on me that I haven't made it easy enough for them.

Right?

In fact, a rescuer turns people into victims, and that's, that's the biggest

lesson I learned is that as I'm trying to make it and do it all for them

and make it as easy as possible, then I'm saying to myself that they don't

have the resources or the ability to do it on their own without me.

And so therefore I've created a victim.

And then what happens is a victim will, you know, turn against you.

Right.

And so, you know, we'll say to mothers in the group, like, you're

doing everything for your kids.

And no one appreciates that.

You feel resentful, but the kids become like the victim and

then they become the aggressor.

Like they don't appreciate anything.

They fight back with you.

And it's like, while the rescuer role is very nurturing and very helpful, like

without rescuers, I don't think we'd have nurses and doctors and all of that, right?

People who really wanna make a difference.

So I don't think it's all bad, but I think there needs to be awareness of.

how much are you being a rescuer in your relationships, in your

work and just in your day to day?

'cause that is extremely draining and just takes a lot from you, and

it doesn't serve others either.

I think that's, you know, the big lesson that I learned, it

doesn't really serve people.

And so that's, you know, probably one of the, you know, things that we talk

about early on in the program that we haven't mentioned here on the podcast.

The other final thing that I would mention is hyper vigilance.

So, you know, we see people in the program that have been.

Exhausted chronically that I've had.

Chronic gut symptoms, chronic thyroid conditions, autoimmune, just chronic

symptoms, right from whatever cause.

And one of the things that I've noticed in my work, which makes a

huge difference, is to recognize how much the hyper vigilance, which I'll

explain, but how much the hypervigilance is contributing to the symptoms and

really exacerbating them, if not.

Prevent, like being the block to healing, right?

And so hypervigilance means that, you know, I'll give you an example.

When someone's tired, they've been chronic fatigue for years, and

so the energy goes up and down.

And so when it's down, they're like, oh, why am I so tired?

I'm so sick of being tired.

I've done everything.

What am I not doing right?

What did I eat yesterday?

What about, did I take all my supplements?

Or why?

Why am I still like this?

I can't stand being, I'm doing all the right things.

This is so frustrating.

Like that mental conversation or it's like.

I can't do this 'cause I won't have the energy or I can't eat that because you

know, that's gonna affect my health.

So that's hypervigilance and that keeps the stress response active all day.

It causes that slow drip drip of cortisol all day long.

Which then has its downstream effect, right?

It starts to hijack other systems of the body, changes our hormones, changes our

biochemistry, creates inflammation, breaks down our gut, breaks down liver detox

pathways, like so much is happening that then makes sure that the symptoms stay.

And so a lot of people, when I have that conversation with them, they don't

realize that, yeah, that's what I do.

I really do that.

And it's, it's like going to war with your body.

Like they don't realize it, but that, that hyper vigilance is like you're in

resistance.

Yeah, so that's probably along with all the, you know,

the dietary and the mindset.

But those are the other two things that I think that are really

important that when women come through the program that they see that.

Beautiful.

Amazing.

Well, thank you, Melissa, for your interview style.

Thank you so much for sharing with us Wena.

Um, I know I learned a lot and I'm sure anybody listening also learned a lot and,

Amazing.

thank you so much.