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Eddie: Previously on WebJoy.

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Jason: And so failure is just information.

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All failure is temporary.

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Now it's part of the learning loop.

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And so the goal is to try something and
see whether it works so that you can then

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make a better informed decision next time.

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Michael: At each failure of
learning how to do a for loop

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learning, how to do an if statement.

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When I gave up, I didn't start at zero.

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I had my save point.

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I'd accrued some knowledge of programming
and it led me to be able to transition

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that and going with the metaphor here,
instead of using fire, I use ice and

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that ice tactic was to take that same
approach for an if statement and apply

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it to web development and that allowed
me to progress to the next stage

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Eddie: Welcome to Episode 6 of WebJoy.

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Kelly: Sometimes I'm writing a
product requirement document,

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sometimes I'm designing a UI.

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Sometimes I'm taking someone else's wire
frame and coding out the end design.

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And sometimes I work on tooling.

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There's no normal.

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It's nice that no matter who I'm trying
to help, there's something I can do.

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Hey did you beat that boss?

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And just having this bonding
moment of, oh, what did you do?

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What was your tactic?

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Did You choose it?

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Did you melee it?

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Did you magic?

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And so it?

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It's open world and it lets you
play the role that you wanna play.

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I love it.

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Eddie: I'm your host, Eddie.

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In this podcast, we interview guests
about their origin story and what

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makes them excited and joyful.

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To be part of the tech community.

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I hope you enjoy today's episode.

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"This is Like Real
Life" with Kelly Harrop.

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Welcome to another episode of WebJoy.

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Today, we have Kelly with us.

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Kelly: Hi, Eddie.

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Eddie: So if you just want to give
everyone a brief introduction of who

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you are, what you do, where you work,
you know, just a general overview.

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Kelly: Yeah, I'm Kelly Harrop.

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I am the UX Engineering Lead
for the Intuit Design System.

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I've had a history of
working in design systems.

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Love systems, love design, love code.

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So getting to do what I enjoy

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Eddie: Awesome That sounds great.

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How did you get involved in tech?

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Where was your origin story?

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Kelly: I have a very weird origin story.

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I started as a video game model, uh shout
out Charisma+2, my old modeling agency,

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and Yvonna Lynn for  signing me up.

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Through her, she had some connections
in the gaming industry and she helped me

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land my very first job out of college.

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So I started in video games doing event
production, graphic design and just

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trying to figure out what I wanted to do.

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Took a few jobs after that here and there
still trying to figure out what I wanted.

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And Ultimately I really loved UI.

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I loved just everything about  the corner
radius of a button really fascinated me

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I don't know if that's, um, normal or
what, but I was obsessed and so I worked

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for a few companies doing white labeling
mostly, which is having just like a

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standardized experience and then themeing
that experience for different companies.

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Over the years done both the design
side and the engineering side, product

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management side of all of that.

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Eddie: That sounds like a fun journey.

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Starting from modeling, to product
management and now UX engineering and kind

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of all these different things in the way.

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How did the transition
between those roles work?

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Kelly: I've always been really
interested in shipping out, whatever.

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So when I was a kid, I
just wanted to make games.

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That's all I wanted to do.

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And I would just figure
out, okay, I need to do art.

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I need to  figure out how to make this
art, do something interactively with

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whatever was available: action script,
just using jQuery, whatever I could

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figure out and just throw it together  to
have something almost playable And later

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on, when I was doing web development, I
really just fell in love with HTML, CSS.

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And just love that there are rules.

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I love rules I love if it's like
grammar or like just anything with

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structure I'm obsessed and This was
something where I'm just like okay,

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accessibility there are rules, there
are ways to do this the right way.

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And I just love that structure.

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I had that kind of development
mindset but I hadn't really coded

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professionally I had done more design
work  and so when I started working.

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I focus more on design because that was
ultimately something that I felt like I

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could just jump in and not break anything.

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I felt less Like I was just gonna
ruin everyone's day  if  a pixel

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was off so I started with design and
then when I started working, there

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was this kind of hidden expectation.

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Oh, like you can code this too.

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Right.

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And I was like sure.

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Okay, the last time I touched
HTML was in maybe like middle

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school, but I can totally do this.

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So I just went back to what I knew, I
knew the rules, I knew accessibility.

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I knew if you're using an anchor,
use an H Ref  don't make it a

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button and things like that.

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Use a button when you wanna use a button.

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Those kinds of rules.

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Really just helped me anytime I
wanted to learn something, I just went

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okay what's the right thing to do.

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I went through like 20 different
answers on Stack Overflow and everyone's

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arguing about what the best solution
is And I was like well,  I'll just

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combine they'll mix and match there.

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And and you know we'll
we'll figure it out.

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Eddie: Nice.

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Well, you sound like you fit in cuz
that's pretty much what all of us do

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Grab three or four different stack
overflow answers mix 'em together

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and hope that Actually works.

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And if it actually
works, you just ship it.

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If it doesn't then you start
tweaking things and try to figure

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out when it suddenly starts working.

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What is it that you really
enjoy about being a UX engineer?

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You've gone through a lot of
different roles and it seems like

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at least for now you've settled into
being a UX engineer, what keeps you

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there and what keeps you excited

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Kelly: I would say that
no sprint is the same.

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Eddie: Yeah

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Kelly: I do a lot of context
switching So sometimes I'm writing

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a product requirement document,
sometimes I'm designing a UI.

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Sometimes I'm taking someone else's wire
frame and coding out the end design.

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And sometimes I work on tooling.

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There's no normal , which you know,
some folks might not like some folks

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like me, I get restless So just having
that kind of diversity in my  sometimes

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daily work can be exciting and there's
always a different problem to solve.

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It's nice that no matter who I'm trying
to help, there's something I can do.

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If a designer needs help, I
can jump in and help them.

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Developer needs help I can jump in.

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Just being an advocate for as many
people as possible has been the driving

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force of "Hey, I don't know that yet,
but I want to find out because then

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I can help you" And so that's how I
stumble through and stay up till 2:00 AM.

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Just watching YouTube videos going.

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Oh, that's how it works.

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Okay.

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Got it And then sharing
that out with folks.

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Eddie: Nice!

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Yeah, at my previous company we
didn't have any UX engineers  so

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I actually led the effort.

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We hired two UX engineers cause
we had two different teams

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that were working on stuff.

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So we got a UX engineer per team
to help be their advocate and

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work with the product designer.

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And like you said, they just
did so many different things.

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They might be helping create the
design system in Figma one day And

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then the next day they're working
on the component library, that's

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implementing the design system and
help giving accessibility tips or CSS

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suggestions to the front-end engineers.

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Definitely is a role that you like you
said every day can even be different.

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And you shift between a lot of things.

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Kelly: Yeah.

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I have a very similar experience where
it's funny, like a developer will

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complain this component is garbage.

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It doesn't have a prop for this really
custom specialized thing I needed to do.

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Why doesn't it just do it out of the box?

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And so then there's a learning
opportunity there teaching about

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performance and you can make the component
do what you need it to do by just

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customizing a little bit with some CSS.

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So I think one of the biggest
things that I try and educate and

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up level is that the design system
doesn't solve all your problems.

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There's still development that
needs to happen on top of that.

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And I love just being able to do
those demos, do workshops, write that

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documentation, give those examples
because then it shows you if you use

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the design system,  we don't have
to like have this, 2MB button to

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do something, it can do the basics.

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Then you can add on that functionality and
add on that customization that you need.

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That's why I love design systems
because it can start off so small,

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but then you can show the potential
with really complex interactions.

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Eddie: That's awesome.

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If you're building something from
scratch, you have to think of all

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the details And by having the design
system some of those smaller details

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are already taken care of, which means
you can look at more of the context

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and you can contextualize what you're
doing more in that specific instance.

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Which is cool, right?

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To not have to look at three
different levels all at one time.

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With this podcast, we like to
talk about, a topic of joy.

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So I just wanted to ask you  what's
something that  brings you joy

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and what's something that you've
been really enjoying lately

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Kelly: So when I'm not working
on design systems and tech, I am

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100% obsessed with Elden Ring.

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And for those who don't know,
Elden Ring is a video game it is

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on multiple different platforms.

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I play it on Xbox, but it is
from FromSoftware and they

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make all the dark souls games.

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And this is my very
first FromSoftware game.

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And.

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Totally obsessed.

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I've watched YouTube videos about
the lore I'm on the subreddit

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constantly just on Twitter.

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I think it's becoming an Elden Ring,
Twitter account and apologies to my tech

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followers are going, oh, not another Elden
Ring post and so it's just been on in

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the back of my mind all day, all night.

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Eddie: It's funny because I didn't realize
until as we were talking was that like you

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00:11:09,774 --> 00:11:13,204
got started working In the game industry.

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And then you have shifted over into
the more general tech industry.

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So it's kind of brings
us full circle, right?

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Like of course you enjoy Elden Ring.

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00:11:20,684 --> 00:11:22,544
Of course you enjoyed
working in the game industry.

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It all overlaps.

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That's really cool.

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What do you think you enjoy
most about Elden Ring.

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Kelly: I would say with other games
there is a set number of animations, like

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everything feels very AI and very obvious.

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So if you like Dodge two times
roll it's like oh this feels like

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a very scripted event And I feel
what Elden Ring gets right is that

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It's just kind of unpredictable.

205
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There's so many different animation sets
from someone who's made video games,

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just the amount of diversity in terms
of the movement sets and how they move

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you remember the fights, you remember
the encounters they're so challenging

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and it's just fun to watch someone
on Twitch or find a friend who's also

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00:12:08,531 --> 00:12:11,341
playing and go Hey did you beat that boss?

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And just having this bonding
moment of, oh, what did you do?

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What was your tactic?

212
00:12:15,661 --> 00:12:16,501
Did You choose it?

213
00:12:16,501 --> 00:12:17,246
Did you melee it?

214
00:12:17,366 --> 00:12:18,296
Did you magic?

215
00:12:18,296 --> 00:12:19,076
And so it?

216
00:12:19,131 --> 00:12:22,611
It's open world and it lets you
play the role that you wanna play.

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I love it.

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My first FromSoftware
game and I'm now hooked.

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I'm a fan.

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I wanna play all the other dark
souls games just to see what I've

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been missing out all these years

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Eddie: It was funny because when you're
talking about fighting the monster

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and how you can fight them in so many
different ways and they're all a little

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bit different I think the one thing that
kind of stood out to me was it reminded

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me a lot of the Zelda game on switch.

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I don't play a whole lot of video
games, but that I was addicted

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00:12:51,317 --> 00:12:53,087
to for probably about two years.

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Now I'm eagerly awaiting Zelda You
know, you're talking about oh, you

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can do all these different things And
that's one thing that really stuck

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out to me about that one was I'm very
amateur when it comes to video games.

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I used to play like a lot of
Final Fantasy's growing up

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Haven't played as much recently.

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With Zelda, I really had no idea what
I was doing So I was just throwing

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random stuff out and sometimes it
filled miserably and, uh, he died.

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But other times it actually worked out and
I was like, whoa, I don't think that's how

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I was supposed to beat him, but it worked.

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Kelly: Right As long as it works.

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Eddie: exactly

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Kelly: Yeah.

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I really just like the,
perseverance aspect of it.

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You die, you get back in there, you
just go at it again What's interesting

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to me is every time I died, I would
try and go, what did I do wrong?

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What did I do?

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Did I roll too quickly?

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Could I have jumped there?

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Did I, did I roll?

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Like, should I have rolled forwards?

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And it's one of those things
where I'm studying every movement.

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I'm trying to understand why
did I mess up And it's funny

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because sometimes I'll walk away.

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I'm like I can't deal with this
And then I'll come back an hour

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later and just beat the boss.

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I'm like Hey, this is like real life.

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Like I'm working on something.

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It's just not going my way.

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Just take a breather, come back.

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Oh, problem solved.

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So I feel like there are a lot of
parallels with how I approach beating

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this game and my daily work life.

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That is just kind of interesting.

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Just shows I will not give up.

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I will persevere I will get back  in
that dungeon and finish it cuz I

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wanna get all the achievements.

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I'm a completionist.

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I like feeling that
sense of accomplishment.

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Something I forgot to mention was
I used to be a professional gamer

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Eddie: Oh wow Cool

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Kelly: which is how I got
into the modeling and working

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in that kind of environment.

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People just go, oh, are you gonna
become professional with it.

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And I have to say just because I spend
an exorbitant amount of time does

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not necessarily mean I'm good It just
means I really enjoy the experience

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Eddie: Nice, that's funny.

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And it's funny that you talked about
how you approach video games and how

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that kind of mirrors your real life,
none of this was scripted  but for

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those listening along and Kelly hasn't
heard the episode right before this, I

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was actually talking to Michael Liendo
and we actually were talking about

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how you can learn through failure.

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And as we talked, we ended up
stumbling into video game talk.

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And the idea that you have these
save points and that you learn

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from failure in video games.

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It's how you progress And yet when we fail
in real life we get nervous about that.

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And how, if we  embrace the mentality of
when we play video games in real life and

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just realize that Hey you try something.

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It fails.

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Try it another way.

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Try to learn from what went wrong.

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That's a great way to
approach learning in life.

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It's so funny, like you had the
exact same mental model there, so

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we didn't script that that's real.

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Uh, you know so yeah

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Well I know we're coming
near the end of time.

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So as we wrap up typically we like
to just see if there's anything that

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our guests want to share with the
audience any kinda resources or things

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that the audience would find helpful.

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Kelly: Yeah.

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I have a couple things.

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One, I recently started a podcast
with my co-host Adekunle Oduye

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who is a UX Engineer at Plaid.

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And so it is a podcast about
UX engineering and what it

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means To be in that role.

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So if you wanna learn more about
what we do in our day to day, that

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is something that we started up
So we only have a few episodes for

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now, but we are working to build up.

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I guess the other thing was I
recently was a speaker at Config,

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which is one of Figma's conferences.

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And so I talk a little bit about what
our design system team has been up to

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that's on YouTube and go check it out

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Eddie: I will include a link to
both of those in the show notes.

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So if you all wanna check
out either of those feel free

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to check out the show notes.

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I definitely recommend the
Code and Pixels podcast.

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That's actually how I stumbled
across you, Kelly, I found

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that podcast listened to it.

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And so then started following you
on Twitter and thought, Hey, it'd

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be fun to have you on this podcast.

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Definitely recommend everyone go
check out, subscribe and enjoy

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getting a more clear picture about
UX engineering cuz I know it's just

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not as common in the industry so I
feel like people don't understand

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as much about what goes on there.

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Kelly: Yeah thanks.

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Eddie: Thank you for coming on the podcast
today Kelly it's been a pleasure just

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talking to you and getting to know your
story, talking about some video games.

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Kelly: Yeah, thanks for having me on.

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Eddie: Thank you for
joining us for episode six.

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This is like real life with Kelly Harrop.

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You can find out more about Kelly
on her Twitter @KellyCodesChaos.

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You can find links to everything
we talked about in this episode, as

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00:17:59,508 --> 00:18:03,168
well as a link to Kelly's website
and Twitter in the show notes.

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00:18:03,948 --> 00:18:07,218
If you enjoyed this episode, please
consider rating and reviewing it

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00:18:07,248 --> 00:18:08,808
in your favorite podcast directory.

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00:18:09,168 --> 00:18:15,018
And following us on Twitter @WebJoyFM
thank you and have a great day

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Next episode on WebJoy.

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Emily: I get a lot of personal  personal
satisfaction, from those moments, when

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you take a step back and really think
about the big picture  on what we're doing

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here in software, I think it's easy, to
kinda get swept away and in the bugs and

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00:18:39,072 --> 00:18:41,377
the backlog and you know, oh my goodness.

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The sprint and story points
and all of that stuff.

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Thinking about the big picture  it's
really fulfilling what we do sometimes

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00:18:49,007 --> 00:18:52,477
if you really think about it and your
product is providing a good service

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00:18:53,396 --> 00:18:56,426
Just having the ability to be like, you
could read a book or you could watch a

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00:18:56,426 --> 00:18:59,416
YouTube video, or you could read this
blog cause it's shorter, or you could

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00:18:59,416 --> 00:19:03,826
listen to a podcast or an audio book or
something like you've got so many options

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00:19:03,826 --> 00:19:08,236
to learn about whatever developers,
relations, product management, these like

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00:19:08,236 --> 00:19:11,176
18,000 product manager podcasts right now.

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And I love every single one of them.

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I try to listen to as many as I can.

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Cause it's just so fun.

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How much is out there?

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I love it.

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00:19:16,966 --> 00:19:21,041
It's a total game changer, I think
for people to learn in different ways.

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" Eddie: So many options to
learn" with Emily Patterson