Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some Blueprints

of Disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,

we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know

we need. Welcome to Blueprints. Can you introduce yourself, please? Dalia, can you go first?

For sure. I'm Dalia Deryawad. I'm a member of the Legal Support Committee. I'm a Palestinian

organizer based here in Toronto. And I'm Rachelle Friesen. I'm also part of the Legal Support

Committee for those that have been criminalized for Palestine solidarity and located here in

Toronto. For those that have been criminalized for Palestinian solidarity, I... That is a

growing number, is it not? And we don't even just measure that by the amount of rests that

we're going to talk about and the treatment by the Toronto police and the media and whatnot,

but. Just the act of criminalization and the language of criminalization just absolutely

surrounds Palestinian solidarity work, doesn't it? And just the way you phrased that, I imagine

that you forgot your hands full then. If that's what you folks are doing. Rachelle, can you

maybe give me an idea of the scope? Because let's just set the stage. I'm on Twitter, X,

whatever, and I'm getting enraged. There's folks out there trying to imply that the police haven't

cracked down on all of these disruptive protests. and terrorist supporters. They're very upset

about this, that not enough resources have been spent policing you folks. I imagine you've

got something to say about that. You want to give us a broad idea of just what Toronto police

have been doing in relation to Palestinian solidarity work? Sure, I mean. I think when we talk about

criminalization, the first arrest took place on October 30th, 2023, and 13 people were arrested

and given trespass tickets on that day. There's been a few other trespass tickets since then,

but we don't actually count them because really that has not been the trend moving forward.

That's sort of like the first and last day we really got trespass tickets after that day.

Everything escalated to charges. So since October 30th, TPS has arrested and charged 93 people.

Now, some of them have been charged twice for like two different events, who we lovingly

call two timers. And some of them have multiple charges for the same event. So we don't actually

know the total number of charges laid against arrestees. But that number, like because that

number would be far larger than 93. So that's just the very basic numbers. And I think. At

first, when, like I said, arrest happened, it started with the trespass. And then within

a couple of weeks, it moved to folks getting a lot of mischief charges. And then it went

to mischief or unlawful assembly while wearing a mask. And most recently, it has moved towards

assault of a cop. Those seem to be the most frequent charges. And so that's sort of how

it's progressed. in terms of the last year, in terms of charges. And I think otherwise

in terms of trends, most, when we started off in the fall, most arrests were happening on

site. Which makes sense for a trespass charge, right? Yeah, and then what we see come January,

and I would say this also happens as the hate crimes unit gets more funding because they

get an increase of funding as well in January and you get the surveillance structure coming

in on top of the city. In January, we start to see an increase in phone calls and people

getting called to turn themselves in after the fact. And then come March, phone calls seem

to be very predominant. And then what we start to see is before perceived escalations of actions,

we have an increase of those phone calls. So like ahead of April 15th, where there was an

international call out for escalation, we had three people get arrested. the beginning of

May when everyone was wondering, will there be an encampment? Is the encampment starting?

U of T is putting up fencing. But is there an encampment happening? And the week where that

is suspected to happen, we get the phone calls of three different people from three different

events to turn themselves in as well. And we have seen that throughout. So we knew as the

Legal Support Committee, end of September, beginning of October, is going to be a sweep of people.

And I think it's what we had. And so we grew our committee at that time. So we would be

able to provide more support. But those are some of the trends we're seeing. And I'll hand

it to Dahlia for things that I might have missed in that in that trends and in that data. Yeah,

I mean, I don't think you've missed anything. I mean, I think one piece I'll add on is, is

the conditions that we've seen for folks. So those have kind of escalated as well. We have

seen bail conditions. Yeah, so after folks have had charges laid against them, their bail conditions

have escalated in nature. So we have conditions, non-association has been relatively common

for folks arrested together or for the same event, which means you cannot converse without

the presence of counsel. And then there are... We had some folks who had a protest ban placed

on them as a condition, which then got dropped once their lawyers went to court because it's

a clear violation of folks' charter rights. And then there are also regulations that are

restrictions of being five, that arrestees cannot be 500 meters, like they can't be within 500

meters of specific locations. So I think those are just. you know, some of also the added

forms of repression or, you know, criminalization that people have faced and often people's,

you know, attorneys will challenge conditions. Thus far, some non-association charges have

been dropped, but not all, so, you know, it's because of the large number of arrests that

varies. I'm gonna link a few episodes back to this one because we did talk to Ms. Squasson

about... her bail conditions and how they were impacting her based on her arrest. And we spoke

with Anna Lippman about the being charged while masked, adding that additional charge. So it's

no wonder Rochelle says like the number of charges is likely so much higher because we find cops

or the crown adding charges after arrest or. you know, trying to just make the issue more

complex than it is. Just one thing to add, I feel like Rochelle, maybe you've mentioned

this or not, but I think we've also, one of the trends that we've tracked is a bit of public

outcry related to how police respond to a thing. So like how people respond on Twitter and like

what does Ionist's response for that does impact that specific piece of like how much criminalization.

and folks protesting the genocide receive. And I think that's also a piece of like TPS's interests

being very closely linked to folks that will have power and hold capital and hold power.

And so, you know, I don't think this is shocking to say that the police's interests are not

those of the general public, but those of capitalist interests and the state itself. It's not shocking,

but I'm not sure we quite. think of their actions being dictated in the same way politicians

are. I think we forget that. We assume, although they are an oppressive tool of the state, the

fact that they are led by public outcry. Just for as I think sometimes just doesn't jive

with us because no matter how much public outcry we seem to make There doesn't seem to be the

same response but I want to unpack a few of the things that you folks have mentioned and

Although it's maddening to hear the escalation of police tactics, clearly they saw, you know,

trespassing charges were not going to deter anyone and then mischief charges were not deterring

anyone. Even when we pair that with really oppressive bail conditions and, you know, holding them

for 24 hours, you know, taking them to separate stations, they tried all kinds of things to

just make it as stressful as possible. not just on like any activist, they're typically organizers,

folks who are leading these actions or planning them or, you know, allegedly doing what they're

doing. And so it's very tactical on their behalf, but it also is a sign of how relentless the

movement has been, right? Because surely, well, maybe you should folks should answer this,

but. Do you feel like it has had the effect the police are looking for? Because now you're

at the point where folks are getting charged with assaulting police officers. That is a

completely different charge, right? It looks different in print. The consequences are much

more severe. Also, it's my understanding that all of these charges are also being investigated

for hate crimes. You know, and publicly so. You know, we are also investigating these for

hate crimes is the phrase that will actually come out of the police officer or the police

release. And it'll accompany the name, age of those charged. I think it's important to note

at this point, and you could correct me if I'm wrong, no one has been convicted of any of

these charges. And I think that's like when we talk about. There's the psychological element,

there's the physical element of people getting beaten by the police, and then there's also

the material part. The fact that every Palestine, anyone that's arrested in support of Palestine

gets investigated by the hate crimes unit. That gets published through TPS and then it just

gets regurgitated by mainstream media. No one has been convicted, but what that does effectively

do is... It creates an atmosphere where doxing can happen. So people then getting tormented

online, people have had their employer called, people have lost their jobs. This is all I

would say very intentional. I know, so for example, I was arrested at some point. I know there

was a press release that came out that said it's being investigated by the hate crimes

unit. I had to tell my employer this. Now I'm very lucky that my employer supports me, but

that's not a comfy thing to do to be like, I'm being invented. You should know this is what's

happening and this is how it's going to be spun. And while the state has continued to try to

escalate either through listing charges online, weird charges. Someone the other day was arrested.

for taking a flag off a vehicle and somehow that made mainstream media, an Israeli flag

off of a vehicle and that somehow made mainstream media. But what it's trying to do is completely

dehumanize this movement that is ultimately trying to stop a genocide. Right? And I think

the state keeps thinking the harder they crack down, the more they surveil us, the more they

harass us. We're going to be scared into our homes to not do anything. But there is a genocide

going on. Um, I don't, I do not see people slowing down. I do not see people stopping. Um, because

yeah, there is it. The ultimate struggle is to stop the genocide and what is going on in

Palestine and in Lebanon, um, and to that people are just going to continue. Yeah, and I think

I will also just to build off of that, I think there is something to be said about the mask

falling more intensely or purposefully or what have you more starkly when it comes to the

Canadian state and the Canadian state is a settler colonial project and its loyalties are with

the settler colonial state of Israel. And you see that very clearly like the TPS is intended

punishment is because the earlier forms of escalations they had against people who were protesting

this genocide were not deterrents. They did not serve the purpose. They had it, so they

kept escalating in the hopes that would make people stay home and hide and be afraid. But

like Rochelle said, the stakes are so high, the stakes are either a genocide continues

or we put a stop to the genocide. And so when people look at it that way, they don't want...

Even folks from... who've been arrested and who are dealing with these charges and who

we've spoken to as the Legal Support Committee, they're not deterred. On the contrary, they

want to highlight the insanity of what has been the media coverage of this and what has been

the TPS response to this. People have been so severely docked that for a few individuals,

their addresses have been shared online, like their home addresses. These are people who

have not been charged of anything. Like you said, nobody's been convicted.

It's showing very clearly that the media regurgitates what the police is saying right now. And we've

been kind of entering a place where the media is refusing to do its due diligence to ask

the side of the arrestees or the side of people in the movement who are doing this work. And

they have received, I think prior to October 7th, the Toronto Police Chief. did a whole

presser about the quote unquote effectiveness of TPS. And that's the thing, TPS is using

this criminalization to show its effectiveness when in reality it has not been a deterrent.

And in response, there was a statement that was put out that was debunking all the lies

that he put out. And there was a media contact person put out with that release. And the media

did not pick it up at all. And they ran with the TPS's false narratives, even though there

were parts of it that were lies. And that's often the case. And I think we've seen that,

you know, at one point after March, the March 30th protest of land day when, you know, TPS

brutality was in full display, because people on the ground were covering it and taking videos,

the media covered it well, with the press conference that came after. And then from that point onwards,

it was like, there was my assumption not backed by anything, is there were some type of unspoken

directive of do not cover anything unless it comes from a police officer's mouth. And that

is what we have seen. The fact that the media hasn't covered the fact that their protest

ban conditions is wild. Like you'd think they'd run with that, but instead they're running

with the flag story. And so like the fact that they ran with the narrative that somebody was

trying to flee the country when that wasn't the case is also wild. Like they just keep

running with these stories. And then a good example, a recent one is like on September

11th, when there was the violence outside of a police station. The only reason the media

began to cover that was because police reported quote unquote minor injuries when we've had

we had eight people go to hospital with serious injuries. So just to say that like It's not

that the tactics are not working as intended. They're having the opposite effect on the movement

because people can very clearly see that the Toronto police are the arm of the state and

the state is a settler colonial state that will not stand like will not do anything willingly.

There is no appealing to the morality of settler colonial states and so I think like an unfortunate

silver lining is that the brutality has like and attempts at criminalization have highlighted

that so clearly at this point in time, particularly a year into this. And I think just to jump

off of that, there was this amazing press conference that really spoke back to the violence that

was received on land day. And again, since then, it's been silent. We did a criminalization

of dissent press conference on June 17th. It was beautiful. It was amazing. We got no coverage

from it. There were two other press conferences this summer, specifically around TPS. either

doing consultation or their tactics. We might get a camera there, but it won't go to air.

We have written statements that, for example, there was a press conference for around the

Indigo Kills Kids, and we brought up the beating at 51 Division and state repression. What's

happening with Indigo is just an extension of this whole state. Anything that criticizes

TPS has been very, very hard to get into the media, which is why we're starting to ask a

lot of questions because the 51 division beating was one of the biggest police beatings of the

public. And that is who we are. We are the public. There were hundreds of people outside 51 division.

It was the biggest police beating of the public since the beating at Lamport Stadium back in

the summer of 2021. And who covered it? And instead what we are seeing is these manipulations,

right, of situations. So they have their TPS press release, then you have media just regurgitate

it, maybe change a few words around, word for word. And that's where you also get like, for

example, back in May at the encampment, there was a marshal that was arrested at the encampment

and the Toronto Star originally published, now they eventually changed it. information from

the press release about how this person had been previously charged in January over the

overpass. But what they didn't include was that person's charges were dropped because the judge

had said that there was not enough evidence to convict this person. And yet they didn't

publish that part in the media's mind. And in TPS, what they did was like, oh, this person's

at the encampment. See, not only did they cause problems here, they caused problems back in

January and published what they were charged with, but not that there was no, there was

no stands for that. Or you think about like, in terms of my arrest, I was arrested, I was

arrested at the airport. I did not know there was a warrant out for my arrest. I was going

to the US for two days to visit a colleague of mine. It was US immigration that informed

me of my arrest and handed me over to TPS. And what does Demp Q do? He makes a statement saying,

this person was left trying to leave the country, which then CTV originally ran with this person

was trying to flee the country. Now we got a retraction printed on that because I was very

angry. But this is the manipulations that are happening. So yeah, like when you folks say

people aren't deterred, that isn't to say they

I don't want, and I never want to scare people away from doing that work, and I'm so glad

to hear that people aren't. But this has real psychological impact on people, and materially.

You've already mentioned people are losing their jobs. We've heard folks having to change addresses,

you know, for the very reasons you've talked about, either doxing or never knowing when

the cops are looking in at them. And this... Let's talk a little bit more about the tactics

too that play into that psychological impact. Let's talk about the turn-ins to start because

there's going to be listeners who have no idea what that is. You mentioned it just briefly

when you were talking about the trends, how they used to arrest people on site and now

we're finding you know sometimes months later. So you've gone to a pretty innocuous action,

a sit-in perhaps, with a mask on. and months later, right as you're in the thick of organizing

an escalated action likely, right? The cops know these significant dates for us. You are

starting to get phone calls to turn yourself in. And Rachelle, when I spoke to you earlier,

you told me about these turn-ins and... you know, cops don't have a warrant to come get

you. They'll say, you know, come turn yourself in. And at first I say, you know, are people

listening to them? Because I was just like, fuck you, come get me. I'm in a different circumstance.

OK, so that was me not really thinking of other people in that moment. I said, you know, are

people actually listening? And you're like, well, yeah, because the alternative is when

they do get a warrant or you might not even know and you're at the airport or they'll come

to your work to pick you up instead, which is hella awkward. maybe they'll come at like four

and five o'clock in the morning and kick the door in like we've seen. And so can you explain

a little bit about what leads up to these requests to turn ins and just you did a great job either

one of you just maybe you've experienced it yourself but to give folks an idea of what

people experience before they actually get arrested or turn themselves in. maybe start us off.

And I think also just kind of to what you're saying, like, yes, people aren't deterred.

And like you said, people are feeling the impacts of this, like, like Rochelle said, it's psychological,

it's physical, it's material, like these things should not be. I can't even think of the word

in this moment, but like they should not be under categorized or made light of because

those impacts are very real and the punishment. that the state is trying to impose on people

is very severe. And that is the point. So with the turn-ins, I think there are different ways

in which we've seen like TPS surveillance and harassment taking place, against people protesting

this genocide. One of them, when we have like asks for turn-ins, there's the Toronto police

calling folks on the phone, asking them saying like, you know, come in, we have a warrant

for you, we wanna arrest you for this specific thing. And what they will have is a form 10.

And a form 10 is what you get when you are released, when you're released and leaving post having

had charges laid against you. And what the police should be doing is getting a warrant for your

arrest and then giving you a form 10. So the police are skipping a step. and willy-nilly

doing whatever they want because they can get away with it. And people don't always have

like we've there's been I don't know what a form 10 is. I have no fucking clue. And that's

the thing, like the distinction between the two is something that we've been working on

educating folks like in the movement about because and educating the public about it, because

you wouldn't know that when police come. door knocking at your house or when they call you

on the phone that you should ask, like, do you have a warrant for my arrest? And that's the

first question you should ask. And someone had a really great response for that when the police

door knock them is they and Rochelle was on the phone with them as this was happening.

But they knocked on their door and the police ask the person asked the police, do you have

a warrant? And the police were like, dancing around the question. They're like, it's a yes

or no question. Right. There are like, what if they just say yes? You're like, oh, okay.

They have to show you the warrant, you know, you have to say it's like the movies. Exactly.

And so if they don't have a warrant, really you can like make them get the warrant. This

is their job. But sometimes it makes sense because people don't want to wait for the warrant.

If there is, if you, if you have kids in your house and you don't want the police to raid

your home, that's a real concern. Like it can be very traumatizing for folks who've had their

homes. raided in the hours of like during dawn, early morning, 5am, 6am, their kids were traumatized

as they saw parents cuffed or parents were traumatized as they saw kids cuffed and brutalized. And

so- For posting, posturing indigo. Not just indigo. So we've had home raids outside of

that as well, where it was like the children being arrested in the home and the parents

being forced to sit as this entire raid was happening in their home. And so like, it's

been for different, you know- forms of protests that have happened, but just to say that it'll

come much later, it'll be a scare tactic in a form to harass you. And sometimes it's a

type of information gathering because they don't really, like getting a warrant is having a

judge say that, yes, there's enough here to charge this person with these things. Whereas

without that, you're saying like, the police are making the decisions on their own. So I

think those are some of the distinctions to be made is like they have, they're operating

with quite a bit of free range and they're like running with it. And asking those questions

is kind of trying to have your own back a little bit. But it's not to say that they won't get

a warrant later. It's just to say that if you have the ability to wait, and there is also

quite a bit of anxiety and stress and depression and hypervigilance that's associated with waiting

on a warrant. Because they don't care about you. They're not going to, with Rochelle, for

example, they did not inform her when a warrant was issued for her arrest. really trying to

fuck with people and it works because leaving people in a precarious state where they don't

know where they stand, like once you've been charged with a thing, things start moving forward.

But if it's hanging over your head as that this may or may not happen, this may happen after

the action or it may happen three months in advance, you're leaving people in the movement

in a perpetual state of anxiety and stress and that's intentional because you never know what's

Yeah, maybe I'll leave it there and pass it over to our shell. I know I went on for quite

a bit of time. Well, I was just going to say, like, and I think that's also sort of like

part of design of their plan. Right. So like, it is our right to wait for an arrest warrant,

which sounds strange to say in and of itself. But like executing that right to wait until

you have an arrest warrant will just will create additional anxiety and stress in your house.

or in your home when already there is the whole entire surveillance of the state. So like people

have reported to us of police cars parked outside of their buildings or outside of their homes,

of suspected police vehicles. People have been followed home from protests. People have been

followed going for a walk in the park. People have been followed going about their daily

life or have experienced harassment, either because they're being followed or like you

go for a drink downtown and you walk out of the bar and what do you know? There's somebody

there from a bike cop from 52 is on his beat and he recognizes you from a protest. So why

wouldn't he take the opportunity to harass you on a Friday night? Like the violence that is

like the psychological pressure. and the violence that the TPS is trying to enact on us. It's

very intimate at this point. They're outside of our homes. They are inside of our homes

sometimes. They are calling us. They are door knocking us. They are following us. They are

yelling our names out from their cars as we, our names out from their cars as we walk down

the street. But again, I like what... It's not stopping us. We are gonna keep going. And I

think it's also just really important to highlight in these moments. And this is like part of

abolition, right? Is the strength of the community, right? So like 93 arrests, we have a community

of people and we've been in touch with every single one. And if we aren't in touch with

them for whatever reasons, we're in touch with their family members to make sure they are

okay. People are showing up for each other to do jail support. People are showing up, like

I've said before, like gift cards for food delivery. You don't generally cash them in. You just

send them along in other directions. Like the community love. Yeah, the community love is

like, we know we are on our own in this city. We know we're getting doxxed. We know we can

be doxxed online. We know we can get harassed in the street. We know people are getting death

threats as well in the movement. And it is very clear, as we all know, the police do not keep

us safe. In fact, they are the leading cause of us being unsafe. But we have built such

a strong community of love and support where nobody is left behind. Can we please talk more

about the support pods? Because... when you talked about them before, that was the real

silver lining to the discussion. Because as you're talking about all of this, like my blood

is boiling and I'm making faces. How come I'm going, oh, I'm so mad hearing all of this.

But this isn't to scare people again, right? We do want to air this stuff. But before we

get to the support pods, I want to go back to that paranoia a little bit. Because, you know,

hearing Rochelle. It sounds like paranoia to somebody who is oblivious to what's going on,

right? Like someone totally outside the movement who thinks cops are just the good guys still.

They, I think, would be like... Of course, they're outside your house. You live in the city. There's

cops everywhere and you're imagining it. And to a degree, that is part of it as well, right?

So you know it's happening. You see it happening, but you can't ever even confirm it. Like some

of them are phone calls. You know you're getting phone calls from cops or like they're yelling

your name. But then there's those other times when then now you're looking at like every

car sideways and heaven forbid we start looking at each other sideways, because we've been

picked up What they do when some people are picked up is try to turn them, you know, and

so Yeah, like the psychological impact that it has on the individual but then How they're

trying to make us change who we are and how we operate Right into something we don't want

to be so rather than becoming paranoid and, you know, ramping up security so tight that

people can't enter the fray anymore, right, from the outside. You folks have found a solution

of sorts, a solution, a mitigation, support pods. Tell me more. Tell us more about those,

that community support that is so necessary under this kind of suppression. I mean, I can,

like a... Just one piece to add to like what you're saying, like we have had several arrestees

report that when they were in custody, they've been spoken to by Chris, who is a cop inviting

them to be a confidential informant and to quote unquote, let TPS know if their comrades are

up to anything or quote, if they are here of anything that could be a risk to public safety

end quote. So just to say- Wait, wait, did you say Chris? Like do we have, is this his name

Chris? Oh, he says, we don't know. His name is Chris. It's like the most basic name. Do

we have a photo of Chris? We do not. And it's just like, it's like the basic name that's

picked, but it's been Chris. Oh, it could be a different name. Okay, I gotcha. Yeah, like

it could be like five different dudes being Chris, but anyways. So, and I will say that

like, just, I think one of the things to, like, when we're looking at these tactics and these

arrests, like one thing is to divide. people in the movement doing this work and make them

distrustful of one another and turn us on each other. Another piece is to isolate people and

make them so they're in silos. And one thing that we in the work that we do is like, we

focus on movement lawyers and there's a question of who is representing folks who've been arrested.

And that's because You know, all these charges or these charges are criminal charges. And

some criminal lawyers response to their clients is do not talk to anyone, do not say anything

until this ends. And that is not the approach of a movement lawyer. And a movement lawyer

will make sure that you are still surrounded by community and you are not isolated from

the work that you were doing. Um, that really is for most of us, you know, very important

to us. Like we don't feel like we're happy to be sidelined and not be able to. work to end

this genocide. And that's not a thing that like sits well when the state is coming down on

you to be like, and now I'm out. And so the support community is to make sure that we're

bringing folks together who've been arrested and providing them the supports that they need.

And so there are different supports that we provide for people. One is connecting them

with attorneys. Another is connecting them with other arrestees, knowing and announcing. you

know, that the only criteria here is that folks have been charged. So this isn't necessarily

a secure type of setting. But you when you talk to other people, you kind of combat the gaslighting

that the state is putting us under, because when you're like, oh, like this, this happened

with me or like, you know. So having those things can help kind of with the psychological impact

that these things have. I think some people who've been arrested have been. organizationally

affiliated, so their organizations have had their backs, but then other folks have not

been. And so we've tried to make sure that there are individuals around those people so they're

not falling through the cracks. And so there isn't a question. Everyone's receiving support

regardless of the social capital they may have. And another piece is, which is a gentle plug,

if we may, is the Toronto Community Justice Fund, which is to support people materially.

So if you have $5 to spare, please, please donate because the money... in that fund is going

to our steeze. And for some people it's covering their rent. For some people it's replacing

doors that have been knocked down for the police. And for others, it's helping with lawyer fees.

So just to say that that's something that is really essential because the material piece

of all of this is, you know, very, very present. I just want to say, if you go in the show notes

for this episode, that will be the top link. under the reference materials that you see

there for the Toronto Community Justice Fund. So we'll make it as easy as possible for folks

to donate. Because I know like we don't want to talk about the material impact, because

when you're talking about stopping a genocide, and it's the same thing when we talk about

the impacts to activists, all of them have said the same thing, like as Rochelle did before

we started recording, like I don't want it to be about me and my bail conditions. And when

we're watching what we're watching and. We're, you know, horribly inspired by the. the courage

it takes to be in Gaza right now, you know, and the people fighting as part of the resistance.

And so it pales, it seems, you know, to talk about it, but it's still real. It's still real.

It could act as a deterrent if we didn't have these safeguards in place. But as I hear you

describe it, and I don't know why it didn't occur to me earlier, it's like the Toronto

police realize they are making like a tight-knit club of organizers that have been through hell

and back. and have endeared themselves to one another and like that are come up with terms

like two timers as though Like in you're an elder now as opposed to someone that needs

to you know Lay low and be ostracized because you've been criminally charged and it's like

it's having the opposite effect I know it is having that real effect on people but In general,

they're just stoking the fire. And that happens as you delegitimize the state, right? They

don't realize that their actions are actually fueling their demise. So this kind of planning,

this kind of organizing is so important. Is there anything else you want to add about like

the community supports that you do, because it was hard to watch that 50 that 51 division

beating that Rochelle talked about that was jail support for a previous action. And we

talk about that on the show. Like you've got to do jail support. You've got to be there

when your comrades are released. You you have to be there while they're inside. Like police

need to know that there is people waiting for them to. hold them accountable. And so that

matters to them. It matters to the individuals inside. And so to see them come out and beat

the people who were on jail support, that was really hard to see. Not that all of it isn't,

but I don't, what other kinds of support should people be prepared to have, you know, like

maybe a spare room, a spare bed for the odd folks that need to. relocate or is there anything

else that you found yourself needing that maybe weren't so obvious to you at the beginning

that you've had to kind of develop support systems for? I mean spare rooms, spare beds are always

useful for folks because even um like even if you're in a if you're in a constant state of

hypervigilance um it's not even necessarily that there is an actual threat. But if you

can't actually calm your body down in the environment that you are in, we've often recommended to

folks like, just like go to a friend's for a couple, like remove the air valve from the

situation so that the hyper, so when you come home, you can actually like know what is threat,

what is not a threat. And I think like something that is starting to be built is like, people

providing because our movement is, it's dynamic. It's not monolithic. We have healthcare practitioners

in our movement. We have lawyers in our movement. We have mental health practitioners in our

movement. And so we do have therapists that do pro bono therapy and debrief sessions for

folks. We definitely have healthcare practitioners that will advise people on how to get documentation

of injuries. or something like 51 division. And so like, that's sort of like also part

of the beauty of our movement is that we are, there are so many skills and everyone is providing

what they can as they can, so that we can keep going. And yes, we're all a little, we've all

aged a lot in the last year. We've all learned a lot in the last year. But none of us are,

none of us are sidetracked from what is actually happening and the genocide that is happening

that needs to be stopped. Yeah and I think to like to build off that like one piece that

I would say is to focus is to like diversify their support and by that I mean like don't

I mean like it's great to have one person that you're very close with but talk to multiple

people that you trust and love and who If it's don't like, and I say this because different

people will say different things to you and they can get help give you perspective. And

it's, that's always helpful. I also will say that like, it's a good grounding to know that

like settler colonialism and the state are more brutal when we are effective and they are not

brutal and a vacuum. They have a vested material interest in supporting the genocide. and they're

not going to let go of that material interest reluctantly. They're going to be made to let

go of it. And so it's not a situation of like, I think we've used every possible way of framing

why the Canadian complicity in this genocide needs to end. It's not about saying it better.

It's not about like, it's been said, it's been made clear. Like all these things have been

done. There are reasons they're trying to also like do this is I think it's scary for the

state to see. Like I think Palestine ends up being scary because it brings people in from

various sectors. You have writers, you have artists, you have lawyers, you have mental

health professionals, you have parents at the TDSB and the PLL district school board and

every district school board around mobilizing students and university and it is showing that

there is. a united front against a settler colonial project. And so then it raises the question

for the state of what does this mean for the settler colonial state of Canada? Because if

everybody's uniting against the end of a settler colonial project in the Middle East, what will

that mean for the structures that exist here? And what does that mean for the capitalist

class that has been profiting off of indigenous genocide here? And I think I realize I'm going

broader than the TPS, but just to say that, like, the state is backing the TPS. Like we've

I know we haven't really touched on Project Resolute and the coordination of RCMP with

OPP, with TPS, with the federal government, with all the things. But just to say that settler

colonial states are sinister and the reason they use violence is because they can't fight

ideas with anything more than violence. And that's what they're doing right now. And the

insanity is the idea that they're fighting is that genocide is bad, which should be a no-brainer.

Genocide is bad. Like, I don't. you know, don't do genocide. I, anyways. And to the state,

that's a controversial statement, which just is because it's a state that was built and

is built on genocide. So. The reality is, it isn't a controversial statement. It's what

you just described behind it. And we have plans for the Canadian Seller States, so no wonder

they are afraid, because this is working up. into exactly what we need for a political revolution,

right? All the sectors coming together, working together, learning how to maneuver through

these state institutions that are also adapting at the same time. So it's not even like a trial

run. It really is a fight against imperialism largely, right? Like I think at the beginning,

I didn't want to correct Rochelle when she said like, the ultimate thing is stopping the genocide.

And it was like, yes, that is the most pressing thing. But we know that will lead to so much

more, right? That we start to destroy the imperialist machine altogether. So the fact that they are

seeing these parallels and understanding, and let's just hope everyone within the movement

is understanding it too, right? Like that they're not just going to stop the genocide. They'll

free Palestine and then we will free ourselves, right? Which is why we also see more crackdowns

on like indigenous protests here in Canada. So like on... I know podcasters can't see this,

but Canada Day, oh, fuck that day. There was the protest that was where indigenous folks

traditionally go and walk to the water. They were told that they would not be able to do

that because of Palestinian protesters in the crowd. We saw this during River Run. clutch

my pearls, children heard from Turtle Island to Palestine, occupation is a crime, and we're

seeing increasing crackdowns on Indigenous solidarity. There is even things like there was a protest

back in August, which was a protest to be in solidarity with Tyler, who is Indigenous and

shot by the police. And on Twitter, people said it was Palestine activists shutting the city

down again. Um, and so we're seeing this connection because it's all the same shit disturbers everywhere.

We can't keep track of the things we're trying to stop and they don't understand solidarity,

right? It's so perplexing for them that you act as one movement, right? They need to label

it and the most explosive label possible right now is Palestine, but Dahlia You brought up

Project Resolute. It's not even in my notes to talk about, but I don't know why I was just

so angry about TPS, and this is TPS, but it's grown beyond that from what I understand from

previous discussions with people, Rochelle. Can we talk about how that, so folks might,

was it the breach? It was the breach. The breach, I believe it was the breach, we'll link the

article, wrote a piece on Project Resolute. But at that time, it was primarily just Toronto

Police Services, I believe. And it ties in also with the other story we talked about where

inside the Attorney General's office in Ontario, there is a committee tasked with advising police

and I imagine they are all wrapped up in Project Resolute or at least it's all one giant piece

of the puzzle right um what do you know about that now and Because it's gone beyond just

Toronto, right? And I'm glad that we're sharing this. And although 93, I imagine Toronto's

been the hardest hit in terms of police oppression. But like, I have no idea. Montreal, McGill,

there were a lot of arrests. Like, do you have comparable figures? This must be replicated

in other urban centers at the moment. To some degree? I don't have a sense of those statistics,

to be honest. I think... There have been different things that we've seen early on, and we saw

in Calgary specific responses of police. And I also will say part of the way in which they're

operating with Project Resolute is like cloak and dagger secrecy. And there isn't clarity

on who's doing what and who's coordinating with who. And the pieces that are clear is that

policing forces across different... you know, regardless of whether it's federal or provincial

or local, police forces are coordinating with one another as to how to respond and the respond

to what? To the Palestine movement. To suppress it. Yes. How fucked up does that sound? I mean,

insane, but. For what? OK, you know. No, but I think it's a fair question. I mean, and so

like the they're coordinating with each other to. suppress this and then also there are parts

that are like the federal giving orders to local police as to how to respond and then like or

the city council doing that and like different ways of decisions being made that are less

about like yeah I mean I think it's like I think it's again like one of those pieces that the

there's also coordination. I mean, I'll speak more locally, but there's like we know that

there's coordination between the Crown and the police, for example. And so like the Crown

and the Toronto police. Yes. And that has and so I just to say that it's like all these types

of coordination is just to say that like the state is coordinating in all its levels. We

don't have the details of that. But in reverse, we're trying to coordinate on our side to make

sure that we have each other's backs, because that's as much as we can do. And I will say

that also in terms, there are questions that are, I know maybe Rochelle can speak to this

a little bit more, but one of Israel's biggest exports is testing tactics on Palestinians

and then exporting it to policing in countries like so-called Canada. And so that is another

piece of it, of like our tactics. I mean, my assumption. is that tactics that are being

right now used on the Palestine movement will then be used against other movements. And this

is important for every movement in the city because soon it'll be helping and it'll be

transit and it'll be everything else that people are fighting for using the same tactics. Because

I think it's, I mean, in thinking of a sinister, the armed force of the states, the way they

think, this is a good test subject. This is a good way to see. what would suppress people

and what would make them move away from something they are ideologically aligned with. Everybody

who's in this movement is against the genocide and against the settler colonial project in

Palestine and against imperialism. How do you, if you suppress them, then you can apply that

model elsewhere. That's my own theory. I haven't mapped that elsewhere, but that's what I assume

they're doing. Well, and we are seeing that at the micro level, the very, very small example

is the fucking truck at protests. The Rubble Loose truck? No, no, no. Our trucks. Oh, yes,

we've heard, yes. Our trucks, which like, if you've ever gone to protests here in Toronto

prior to 2023, we've always had speakers on trucks, like both like tech speakers, we've

always had people on the back of trucks. This has never been an issue. Like any parade, right?

And now suddenly it is a major issue. And we know what this is about. We know that like,

It's like strategic incapacitation where the police are finding one minor thing that they

can focus on that they can then gain access to our movement spaces. So the fact that they

need to like scrutinize the truck means that they get to enter protest spaces means they

get to like test out organizer discipline. Are people talking to the cops that shouldn't be

talking to the cops? It's all a plan for them. But That truck thing has now applied to River

Run. It has, I believe it applied to the Migrants' Rights March as well. Moving forward. Precedent

has been set. Our truck is the thing, which is so stupid. But I think also when we go back

to how these settler colonial states are intertwined in learning from each other and sharing things

from each other, there are things that get lost in sort of like the history. Um, that in like

2008, Stockwell day signed a public safety agreement with Israel, which would mean that Canada and

Israel would share information on, uh, border control, prison population, and I believe crowd

control. Um, so that's 2008. It was a public agreement. It was a public declaration. I believe

it did not go through any sort of procedure in the house. and then it was reaffirmed in

2015. That's still there, which means also, when we talk about links to settler colonialism

and fascism, when you go to Canada's website about who is a international stakeholder on

public safety, it's fucking Ben Giver, who is a fascist Israeli politician, who actually

when... Israeli soldiers were arrested for the rape of a Palestinian prisoner. This fucking

politician decided that he was going to break down the prison doors to release them out.

This is who the Canadian state has decided is a stakeholder on public safety. I'm just mouthing

the word trash. He's trash. Sorry. Yeah. That's even kind of. No, I will be on trash. So I

was. trying to look up the, there was a ricochet article that I wanted to send here in the chat

that was about the, it's about the Canadian police chief's meeting that they had in Halifax.

And one of the things, and it's really like incredibly racist and chopped up in all types

of different ways. They're trying to claim that police are now being doxxed online, which is

laughably hilarious. And like their feelings, which is just like, cry me a river. Public

safety officers, oh no, we know their names. Yeah, like how, yes, like it's so hard and

painful for them. But the part that's interesting is like one of the Ontario Provincial Police

Commissioner, one of the things that he says is that like individuals coming to Canada from

the Middle East, from Middle Eastern countries where they, where quote, the use of violence

is an acceptable vehicle for social change, end quote. So just to say that there's also.

quite a bit of racism attached to this. I know we haven't touched on it. I think it's like

an unspoken piece to this audience of this podcast, I assume, but like that's also alive and well

and underlines a lot of the narratives that TPS is funneling out to the media and that

the media is grabbing onto because it feeds into like an Islamophobic, anti-Arab, anti-Palestinian

sentiment, xenophobic sentiment that's just like these immigrants coming over, fucking

everything up for us. when these immigrants are saying we want to go home, but we want

our home to be liberated, just at least for myself. I won't speak for the rest of my people,

but that is an interesting piece because it just outlines also the anti-Indigenous racism

that the journalist who wrote that piece experienced. But I think it's just also just to say the

police chiefs coordinate with each other. They converse. They're not going to tell us how

often they collaborate, but I would assume it's a lot. Like, when you are a psychopathic fascist,

you need others to stroke your ego, to be like, you're a good boy, and that's what's happening.

And so, like, you know, sorry. I slid over to that article and I saw, like, victimized in

quotes, and I just had to come back to the screen because I was going to start laughing and I

just can't deal with cops feeling like they're victims at this point after all that we've

heard about their fucking behavior and their complicity. And I will say it is like also,

like I think it's interesting, and we've seen this happen, at least with Israel, but it's

like a page out of their playbook to take the narratives that Palestinians are using to then

as their own and repackage them. And it's like the TPS is doing the same thing where Israel

will be like, we are indigenous to the land. And then, but then they'll burn down the land

and, you know, they do their, and TPS is doing the same thing of like, our police are getting

like minorly injured. but also we had hospitalized eight people with like severe injuries. No,

like that's the asterisks to all of it. So it's just like the playbooks are being exchanged

with one another. I just want to note like going back to the explicitly racist comments there.

If you look at the mandate for the committee that I referenced earlier, and again, we did

a whole episode on the attorney general committee. They are tasked with examining protests that

center on conflicts in the Middle East. So they didn't go as far as to say Palestine, because

that would be super obvious and I guess they can't use the word Palestine. They're using

the CBC's language guide or something. But they explicitly do say that, you know, anybody trying

to stop conflicts in the Middle East is worth examining for hate crimes. And... You tie that

into the recent designation of a terrorist group, how that is expanding and how likely that will

then add a layer to the investigations around activists. Do you have you ever corresponded

with this known terrorist group? And then that adds to this hate crime level of charge that

could be levied. So yeah, we don't know exactly who's talking to who, but like you say, it's

just so obvious that it's manufactured right from the top down. And, you know, that just

flies in the face of all the checks and balances we're supposed to have. And I love it. Dahlia's

so flippin', like, they won't even tell us how often they talk to each other, but we know,

we know they meet up in their little caves and... plot against us, but you sound a little crazy

when you say it, but like it's the level to which the surveillance and the suppression

of our form of democracy, I say democracy, people think the ballot box, I mean, I'm assuming

the listeners know who we're talking about. Because when I said to you like respond to

what? You said Palestinian protests, but you know, they wouldn't apply this shit to any

climate event. An indigenous led one, sure. But if Greenpeace got, you know, I remember

we had a big climate march and it was huge, it was really fucking big, but we did nothing.

We just walked down university and we made a turn and like there was, they were the state

can deal with that, right? They can deal with us demanding a carbon tax or whatever the fuck

we were asking for at that point. I don't even remember what the point was, what the demands

were, but like they can kind of placate around that. But when those protests explicitly center

on the colonial state, right? And the questioning of that use of state violence, all of that,

that has to just, they've got to squash that as harshly as possible. If they know it's good

for them. Of course, and I will say, I think early on, like in the trends that we tracked,

one of the things that we were kind of highlighting or seeing is this attempt at building a specific

narrative of this idea of quote unquote good protesting versus quote unquote bad protesting.

And that was like, and not like clearly stated objective of the criminalization they were

doing, but it was very obvious that they were trying to send a message to everybody who was,

you know, coming out. against the genocide to say, here are the ways in which we're okay

with you protesting, here are the ways in which you shouldn't protest because we will lay charges.

And then that started to escalate where a lot more things face that. But that's also part

of why I would say like, we haven't seen so many arrests at protests, like at the mass

mobilizations that happen at weekends, because those are quote unquote good. But then if it's

a more direct action piece than that is. bad and you need to teach you that that's quote

unquote bad. And she's using quotes for every time she says good and bad, because I'm thinking

and I'm like, no, you're thinking it's the opposite. Like we love our marches, but it's called blueprints

of disruption for a reason. So exactly. And I think it's also just that also, you know,

it's like you're saying about climate protesting. It's this idea that like come out and say the

things, but don't actually disrupt the status quo and don't disrupt the flow of capital and

don't disrupt. You know, everything that's happening don't inconvenience people too much, so to

speak. But like, in reality, the point of protest is to be disruptive and is to disrupt capital,

the flow of capital and to disrupt the status quo. Because you're asking for change and change

does not come when we like, you know, we're not like, you can't appeal to the morality

of the state because they have no morality. Like They're continuing their genocide on indigenous

peoples of this land. What makes us think that they're going to care about the indigenous

people of Palestine? Like, you know, like it's not it's like, you know what I mean? It's like

a false equivalency. Well, every industry does. It wouldn't even be like, you know, nefarious

to acknowledge that point. You know, that police chiefs across Canada. I mean, if you believe

in police forces, they should be talking to one another in the hopes of doing their jobs

better. We know that's not what they're doing. I mean, it is, because they do want to do their

jobs better, and their job is to suppress our work, right? So, I mean, we would kind of mock

them if they just lived in silos and operated without networking. I mean, we don't do that.

No industry does. But I think just knowing that these tactics will likely just become more

and more normalized. the less noise there is around them, which makes you coming on here

to share these details so important. But it's like striking that balance between letting

everybody know what the cops are doing and how you could possibly mitigate it, right? Rather

than trying to stay in the lane they're trying to put you in, right? Because I think one of

the most valuable, no, I can't say that. One of the things that hit me was when you mentioned

the type of lawyer. And it was so black and white, like night and day there, the two approaches

of. maybe two different lawyers where one would say, you know, lay low, don't talk to anyone,

like typical lawyer advice. We've all kind of seen and heard it in the same movies where

you're asking for, where's the warrant? But then you say a movement lawyer and, and it's

not just the movement lawyer, it is the movement, right? Where we add sunlight to things and

we are accountable to each other and we are open facing as much as possible. And so Yeah,

no, just mentioning that, like, it's a logistical thing. Like, when you get arrested, don't just

call any fucking lawyer, right? Like, know that there are two different approaches you can

definitely take. One is beneficial to the movement as a whole. One may protect you a little bit

more. But in the end, it's arguable, right? It's arguable whether trying to deal with this

on your own and trying to, you know, just avoid those charges altogether is probably not in

your. best interest either. But it so back to the balance, I go on tangents, that's the ADHD.

But it's a you want to share this, you want to share this, but you don't want people to

be scared. Right. So before I let you folks escape, do you have anything you could share

with the audience who have heard all of these things? They are mad. But you know, at the

same time, we've planted a kernel of what you could likely expect. Should you engage in any

meaningful way. So other than the kind of practical steps that you've provided, you know, in terms

of forming community support, having legal support, a know your rights education within circles,

you know, is super important and adapting that to like practicality, like you'll have rights

that are in the constitution and on paper, and then you'll have the way the police are applying

things. Because even like good or bad protests, that is shifting. You know, apparently Spider-Man

costumes on awnings, like that became a no-go all of a sudden. As you said, things just added

to it. You'll have people saying, be safe, don't get arrested when you go out. And you look

at them and you're going, I don't know what they arrest people for these days. That's changing

all the time. Like, okay. Like that's just not even practical anymore. So what can you say

to folks that, you know, we're thinking like, I wanna go out, I don't wanna get arrested.

I mean, I think there are a few things to say. I think, like you said, I think there are know

your rights that are really helpful and important. to, you know, information is power here and

to equip yourself with what you can do to protect yourself is important. You know, ways to protect

your devices, you know, wearing masks, doing these things is important, but also I would

say there are a few things. Like I think the number of 94 is scary and though it's not like...

The state is coming after people and the state is not arbitrarily arresting people. The movement

has had tens of thousands of people in it and the number is large, but the people who have

not been arrested are larger. And so that's an important piece to highlight is like they're

coming after people and not because of who they are individually. That's a piece that like

often when we connect with the RSDs we say like we'd say to them is like. This is very personal

in that it's happening to you and you're the one that they're charging or trying to charge

with these things. However, it's not about you at all. It's them trying to make an example

of you more broadly. And so you, and it's dehumanizing in that you no longer are an individual in

that manner, but just to say that like they're doing this because they're trying to see what

will freak people out. And again, the more knowledge we equipped ourselves with, the safer we can

be to also, once there's an attempt to criminalize somebody, if you've done your due diligence

and you've tried to have your own back, then a lawyer will take over and they'll have your

back. And so I just think that there's quite also a bit of resources behind the movement

and people who have set up structures to make sure that we are supported in the work that

we're doing. And so I think that those are maybe the things that I would, I would. badly folks

with. And I would just echo everything that Delia has said. And the thing is, is like,

94 is a lot. But that means we also have a very vibrant community of care for each other and

with each other. And I would say like, it's not the general, it is tens of thousands of

people that are part of this movement. and only 94 have been arrested. Are we expecting more?

Of course we are. And if that happens, will you be invited to this community of care and

support and love? 100%, you will be a part of that. You will not be alone in this. And I

know the state and how TPS releases these individualized reports, how the state individualizes your

case, how they make it seem all individual. We continue to push back and be like, no, you're

not alone. We are part of a collective. And that's just sort of part of the movement. There's

something so inherently powerful in that where I just feel a little braver hearing it, honestly.

And Ms. Squastin had similar sentiments that really kind of stayed with me on, you know,

when she left being arrested and was greeted with like smokes and her favorite snacks. And...

it sounds like so small of a gesture, but in that moment where it did feel like all about

you and you're probably doing everything you can to not freak out because you don't want

to give the cops an inch and but internally it's so much stress and then just to know that

isn't you know something you have to face with on your own and even to think of it as a community

joint to make a such a positive out of it. I thank you so much. for doing that kind of work,

for taking that on. I was so disheartened when I asked Rachelle, like, do you think, you know,

eventually you'll be arrested too, perhaps just because you're doing the work that you're doing,

not even necessarily the action they've arrested you for, you know? And I expect it. And that

made me mad. That made me mad that someone that's doing this work had to resign themselves to

that. and had to just operate with that in the back of your mind, but that neither of you

have let it daunt you at all. I hope that gives our listeners the courage they need if they

needed it. So thank you both very, very much, not just for coming on the show, which I totally

appreciate you taking the time out to do because... We will try to boost this as much as possible.

People need to be talking about this, like especially the investigating for hate crime. I can't believe

the media didn't really pick up on that point. You named a couple other points that should

have been blown up and that you folks spent time focusing on. But for me, that one is so

it's out there with every release. They don't even need somebody to tap them on the shoulder

and be like, hi, they're doing this. Like they are getting that information with every press

release. And they must surely go, well, why is it being investigated for a hate crime?

I don't know. And they just keep rolling. Right. Or they do know and they're not saying anything.

So thank you for amplifying this too on top of the work that you do supporting, acting

as legal support for those folks. And again, it's the Toronto Community Justice Fund that

we are going to link at the very top of our show notes if anybody has anything that they

can donate to that. Please do. But thank you Dahlia. Thank you Rochelle. Yeah. Thank you.

That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Also

a very big thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Halu-Quintero. Blueprints of

Disruption is an independent production operated cooperatively. You can follow us on Twitter

at BPofDisruption. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting the status quo, please

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