Hi, everyone. Welcome to Orange Hatter. Today you're listening to a conversation I had with Vivian. thank you, Vivian, for coming on the show. I'm so excited to dive right in because I think you have a really interesting story to share. Can you start by giving us a little intro on your

background? Yeah, for sure. So my name is Vivian Chang, and I was born and raised in Beijing. And then later on spent my entire adulthood abroad in North America and Europe. So right now I'm in West Coast, Canada. I'm relatively new in Bitcoin. Actually, I'm only a class 2021, but have have the privilege to really delve into the space in the past few years. So right now I work In marketing and PR for Bitcoin companies and I'm, I'm running my own podcast called Life with Bitcoin focus on the human side of Bitcoin. Tell

Us more about Life with Bitcoin.

Yeah. So I was working with many Bitcoin companies and because I'm in marketing and PR. So I'm usually the one who was like reaching out to different conferences and podcasts to try to place my clients onto the show as speakers. And what I realized is that there's so many great Bitcoin content out there, but a lot of them are very technical and they talk about what's been happening today in our society. And those are very timely and relevant and important content. What I realized is that not everybody is technical, not everybody likes numbers. And let's face it. We live in a quite chaotic and can be depressing worlds. And I find these content a little bit. stressful sometimes personally, and they are like, and should anxiety inducing. So I actually feel like, Oh my God, like what I'm going to do in this world after watching these content. And I, when I first got into the space the biggest hurdle for me to get Bitcoin was actually the technical side. I'm not a technical person at all. I didn't grow up liking numbers and I wasn't good with numbers. So for the longest of time, I didn't take the time to learn it because I thought it was. Too technical for me because I'm not from a computer science background where I'm not a cryptographer and it is just too complicated for me to even bother to try it until I'm in the space and I realized this is not the case and it was actually the human side of Bitcoin that get me hooked provides how it provides freedom, how it provides options. For people, not only in emerging markets, but also for basically everyone in the world. And this is when I realized, oh, we're there's, there's a gap in this space that we, we should focus more on the human side of Bitcoin. Cause if you think about it, it is the Bitcoiners, the individual people, the combination of individual people are driving this force is all of us building, hodling. Spreading the word and bringing new people onto the space that the wall ultimately make the difference. So what I really wanted to do is to focus on individual transformations, focus on individual Bitcoiners journeys and change and transformations through the lives of Bitcoin. And we're also very early to the point that we don't necessarily see a lot of Bitcoiners in real life. So I thought it's a great opportunity for us to get to know Bitcoiners individually and to learn from Bitcoiners.

Yeah, our a mission is so aligned. Very, very exciting to be talking with you, especially as women. I think we feel very isolated in even within the small space of the Bitcoiners. And so connecting with other women is so important. So I just want to applaud you. I think you're doing amazing work and, you know, keep going, keep going. This is very exciting. Do you mind if we dive just a little bit into your background? Just, you know, setting a stage for people to understand where you're coming from. You're originally from Beijing. Can you tell us a little bit more from the money side of things, what life was like growing up,

right, growing up. I guess I was a very normal kid growing up. And I belong to the one child generation. So I'm the only child in my family. It's, I guess it's It's good in a way because they have all the resources and love and cared only for me because I'm the only child, right? I think growing up, I've, what I've witnessed about money is the, the transition from cash economy to a digital currency economy. I remember when I was growing up when I was a kid, then people were using cash all over. I don't think China has a particular. Phase of credit card, even so the transition between cash to mobile payment happened almost instantly. Or within a very short period of time, And most people don't have a credit card. They literally just transitioned from cash to paying with WeChat Alipay those mobile payment giants that's out there. And even just a couple of years back when I went back, there are vendors. They don't take cash anymore. If you want to buy something with cash, they would actually say that, Oh, we don't take cash. You pay with your WeChat. And it's weird because. Cash is fiat and they don't even take fiat. So the mobile payment side of things already got so sophisticated that you can't go out without your phone. You need to tap your, like traffic card, the, the transportation card when you're getting on a subway, getting on a bus, and you need to literally pay for everything with your phone on WeChat or Alipay for caps some places still take cash, but I've experienced in the past is that they don't take cash anymore, and if you have like a 100 yuan bill, And sometimes they simply don't have the change and they wouldn't even let go of the business cause you just cannot deal with money. So it was definitely very interesting growing up witnessing. That change and versus in Western world, like in Canada credit card is very normal. Some people have multiple but in China, I don't see many people even have the need to get a credit card.

I did not realize that. That's, that's a really interesting fact. I feel like using a credit card changes our perception of what money actually is. So when we spend money, if you have a lot of cash and you're handing it out as you're spending it, you feel the pain of it leaving. But when you're swiping the credit card, you don't necessarily feel the pain. So if in your culture, you completely skipped that credit card phase, what kind of psychological change toward money did you notice or not notice between using cash that they can feel in their hands and just swiping with a phone.

Right. The process will be the same, like the trend, the psychological transition will be the same because now you're removing the face of actually giving out the money and it's all very digital. So the, the pain of spending is obviously removed. And with credit card, obviously you can kind of have a limit. You have a credit limit and you can. Spend more money before you even have it. And even though trying to kind of skip that phase of having credit card, there are many like businesses that are dedicated to small loans and they make it so user friendly that you can just. Borrow money at a rate very, very fast without much credit available. So this is another problem that the young generation of China is facing is that they are kind of getting sucked into these little loans. And then before they realized. They're like, Oh my God, I'm, I owe 2, 000, which is a lot for let's say a 20 year old who's, still receiving money from their parents. But want that extra upgrade for lifestyles and they get hooked into these small loans. And then when I realized it's like, Oh my God, I can't, I can't deal with this. And the interest pile up. So the pain of spending money is definitely reduced by going digital. And even though the credit card phase is skipped, people still are struggling with debt.

That's interesting. So it's really kind of like a credit card, but. Not called a credit card because they are still dealing with credit, right? Yeah. So, okay, so you went into Bitcoin through your job. You were initially intimidated because of the technical side. How did you overcome that and become so convinced that you are now running your own podcast about Bitcoin? Right.

So I'm among the lucky group because I see so many people that are Trying to work for Bitcoin, trying to switch from a fiat job to a Bitcoin job. And I did it backwards. So I was freelancing at the time and I got a part time gig servicing Bitcoin company. Without any knowledge or experience, but I'm, I'm someone who's always on the lookout of new things. I like to surprise myself. So I pick up the job and for a while I didn't need to get into too much details of it. And I struggle a lot. Like I remember walking on the street, listening to this podcast, talking about blockchain one on one. And I was just so overwhelmed and, and bored, to be honest, and I, I just, I feel like I, I need to learn about this thing that I'm not particularly interested in. And that lasted for a few months. And I think it's really started to shift after I understand, I understand the technology enough to the point that I know that, oh, you can use it for remittances, you can use it as a store value to fight against inflation and that's during COVID. I'm the only child in my, in my household and growing up, I feel this massive guilt. Because I feel very fortunate to have a family full of love and care and support. I'm financially provided for. I have good resources and opportunities around me versus, you know, kids in Africa, kids in many underdeveloped markets. They're starving. There's no electricity or water. And these things bother me. So I... Avoided news for years, for years and years and years. Like growing up, I didn't really watch news. I tried to disassociate myself from it just to avoid the massive guilt that I feel as a survivor or as a, as a lucky person. Until I realized, Oh, like what Bitcoin is and what impact it has for these markets, these places. And I got hooked by how much option it gave to people, how much autonomy it gives people to actually pursue what's important in life, like love, meaningful connection, build a legacy, self esteem, confidence. Like I can go on all day, but these are the things that Bitcoin actually eventually allow you to pursue. Versus before you're just really struggling to put a roof on your head, to really provide. materially for your family and loved ones. And there's very little energy and resources left to pursue and really go after what it's like to be a human. And by working in the space that I'm lucky enough to start to make an impact, and that's highly fulfilling and gave me a sense of purpose Everybody complains about not enough women in Bitcoin and I feel that myself, but they do exist. I've seen so many great women in a space that I've connected with. We are out here. It's just, we're kind of outnumbered right now, but it's not going to be forever. And this is partially because the content out there are so technical and political or politically driven or where they talk a lot about the macro side of Bitcoin. And it's all good and well, but for women, we approach the world in a different landscape. Like, we are just completely different from, from men, and we approach world in our own philosophy in a more emotional and fluid way and we focus on the little things. while having a, having a low time preference. So these things are not as well represented in the space. So, I saw the gap. I feel like this is something that I can contribute to. And for the longest of time, I've been trying to find an angle for myself to be in this space. How can I contribute even further? And the thing is, I'm not necessarily a speaker because I'm not particularly knowledgeable in many of the aspects that Bitcoiners talk about. However what I've also realized is that there are a lot of great speakers in the, in the space, but they're not enough. Great moderators. And I want to be that person. I want to be that person. I want to be able to ask good questions. I want to be able to evoke insightful thinking to dig into the personal stories of Bitcoin to the point that people feel relatable. People feel encouraged in their day to day life to keep huddling, to keep fighting. To connect with underrated Bitcoiners in the space and to share their personal stories, either they work in the space or not and share with everybody that you're not alone. We're in this together and there are so many Bitcoiners out there living their lives, trying to be their best self and. To gain strength from it and myself as well, like I've gained so much good strength and energy from the people I've, I've been connected with in the past few months. And I'm really grateful for the opportunity.

I think it's so true that men and women do think differently and they do approach Bitcoin from such a different lens. And like you said, there are Bitcoiner women out there. They're less vocal. Maybe they're even invisible because they value their privacy above all. But they are out there and we are going to reach them. We're going to unite them. I'm going to share our strength, our stories, which is why you and I are talking together today. Can you think of an example of someone that you have encountered that their outlook in life has transformed because of their contact with Bitcoin.

Oh, yeah, of course. So I work with a lot of emerging markets, and that includes people in Latin America, Africa, Southeast Asia, and all over the world, like Middle East countries. General consensus is that sometimes they are, they were not In the space per se. And then before Bitcoin, it was very much of a, I don't know if I have an option. So I have to, I have to play along because I have no other option. But then after Bitcoin what I realized is their whole outlook on life would change because now they have, they have the opportunity to opt out, to preserve their, their wealth, especially in countries with very high inflation. They were able to really preserve their wealth, and to have the luxury to think on a low time preference, because if you're in countries like Venezuela, Argentina was hyper hyper inflation, even if you want to adapt a low time preference lifestyle is not possible, because you have to provide and you have to get the most of what you what what's in your pocket. So it's you can have a low time preference mindset, but it's just simply impossible to implement. But Bitcoin actually enables people to to live that life, to really start to act upon their beliefs. And that's huge because it's the alignment of action and beliefs that will create the most productivity. Otherwise, you're going to be constantly frustrated and hopeless. What I encounter the most from people in these markets are one word. It's hope is that Bitcoin brings them hope. Otherwise. It's just coping. Otherwise it's just reacting to their current circumstances without a long term perspective. They're just getting by by the day. And it's, it's frustrating. But Bitcoin actually offers them hope and a positive outlook for their own life and their family's lives. And to have hope in anyone's life, it's a huge thing.

Yeah, for sure. Just to clarify for the listeners out there who are not familiar with that concept of time preference, low versus high, would you mind going into a little bit of detail about

that? Yes. When we identify ourselves as Bitcoiners, we're not just investing in Bitcoin we hold a collection of values and beliefs that make us Bitcoiners and one of them, one of the most important ones is low time preference. So low time preference is kind of like delayed gratification. It means that you're willing to sacrifice today in order to get. To gain more in the future, and when you have a high time preference, it means you want to... Maximize the satisfaction today versus in a low time preference standard. You're constantly thinking about the future. You are not in a rush to see results right away. And you're willing to wait and be patient and work. To secure more prosperity in the future. And women naturally have that because when they start a family, have kids like kids, don't just grow like overnight, right? It takes decades and decades of care and love and support for a kid to really mature and have their own life. And women naturally have that low time preference when they become moms. And I've talked to many people. And they've told me that women moms actually get Bitcoin way faster than the dads because they're open minded. They're constantly thinking about the future, what's the best for their family and children to the point that they already have a low time preference to adopt themselves into the Bitcoin mindset. They just don't know it yet.

it's really interesting you said that because I have observed the opposite, actually. So my husband and I, we went to two homeschooling conferences last year, and the total attendees of those two events combined were about 25, 000. So pretty massive number of people. And what we found was almost every single family that came by, the dad was the person who was in charge of finances and when I tried to talk to the moms about Bitcoin, she would say, well, my husband handles the finances. And then, and then like, that's it, that, that ended the conversation. And I have found that to be true in a lot of places that we have visited. There seems to be this sort of delegation a natural delegation because When you're running a household and you've got kids running around, you've got to divide and conquer. Everybody can't do everything. And so you have the men, working and handling their finances, the wife or the woman would, do the childcare and mostly, mostly, not all the time, there's a generalization, but that's what I have found. And that's one of the reasons why I'm personally working hard to reach moms out there. Because like you said, they are already. Looking at the world in the same way, and yet right now, it's a delegated task. Understanding money, understanding investment. It's a delegated task, but they have direct influence over their kids through just the amount of time that they have with their kids being the majority caretaker, mostly, mostly. And so that's an interesting observation that you have made. Yeah, tell us more, like give us some examples. Are you able to describe some people that you have come across and maybe you and I can put our heads together and see how we can communicate better to one audience

or another. Yeah. So I learned about this through one of my guests. So I talked to Billy Junjo and he's a content creator for Bitcoin in South Korea. And he creates Bitcoin content on YouTube and, and a Bitcoin newsletter. And what he shared is that that the moms in the household are more open minded. And because they, they are the primary caregivers in the, in the household, that they're naturally thinking about. the future of the kids more the future of the family more. And they have and women are, women generally have less ego. They don't have as much ego as, as man to always be right. They don't have the need to always be right. And when versus, and that's what he observed too, is that the man usually have this mindset of, of I already know everything. And I don't want to admit that I have something that I don't know. So there's the ego parts that men have to get across when they come into the space of Bitcoin, because it's a very complex subject and it takes a lot of, you need to properly go down the rabbit hole and make time and effort to learn about this before you can fully understand, and a lot of people. May not be able to get past the ego stage to admit that everything they've told what they're used to around them is a lie and that takes courage and that takes The ability to unlearn yourself and not everybody can do that quickly.

That's really interesting. I wonder if that has some cultural aspect to that. So Scott and I, when we travel, we were experiencing that most Bitcoin meetups are, I would say 90 percent men. It's very rare for us to come across a meetup that has at least 40 to 50 percent women. Very, very unusual. And mostly what we have encountered is. The men would come to the meetup and the wife would stay at home and watch the kids. Yeah, that's what I've seen too. Yeah. So we're trying to have more family events Scott and I have a meetup. If we can get the whole family involved, then it is no longer a man or woman thing. It's just a family thing.

That's such a good idea because if you think about all these Bitcoin conferences if any of them are listening is that if you have a dedicated babysitting area where you get all of the kids together and do like kids workshops for Bitcoin, and we have seen a common creators for children's book in the space and maybe we can get them together to host something online. to have the kids create a piece of art to go through the book together and have some opportunities for them to get exposed to Bitcoin in a engaging and informative way to the level that they can understand and really grasp the idea in a very young age. The potential is huge because you're spending the least amount of effort and making the most amount of impact in the next

20

years, right? that's what I observed when we went to the homeschooling conferences is you have the main event, the main hall where all the vendors are, and then they have the speakers and everything, but they have a dedicated children's room and it's divided into, I think, two or three groups based on age. And while the parents are roaming around, the exhibit hall, the children are building friendships and doing activities and they look forward to the conference with their parents and it's not a alright mom or dad They're going and we're gonna be stuck with a babysitter kind of thing So if we can make our Bitcoin conferences family friendly and have that right the parents go into exhibit hall they go to the you know, the workshops and then The children, like you said, they have games and authors reading stories and crafts and things, just exposing them so that it's a conference that everybody looks forward to every year. That would be amazing. Yeah, that would be. Let's talk about your parents. Are they orange pilled? Are they resistant? What's going on with the older generation? Right.

They're not orange pilled. I would put it that way. They know that I work in Bitcoin and They think I'm living a very mysterious lifestyle because they cannot fully grasp what I'm doing. They know I'm hosting a talk show and I've recorded episodes at home when they're around. I think at this point in life, cause I've been abroad, I've been on my own since I'm 18 years old. So they've kind of have to, by now they've, they've have enough, a lot of respect and support of how far I've already made for myself. And they're very proud of that and I appreciate that. And to the point that they respect and support how I choose to live my life. even though they don't fully understand what I'm doing or see some risk. And like many people out there, they're, they have a slightly skeptical view. They don't know how stable this industry is. They don't know. If it's safe both legally and in a lot of other aspects they don't have a complete understanding of what Bitcoin is. And I try, I don't really actively try to orange pill them because it's, more than just Bitcoin. It's not just Bitcoin. If I need, if I want them to fully understand Bitcoin, it's hours and hours and topics after topics of their own belief systems. And I don't want to just poke the, the beehive and get all bruised by and they wouldn't like it either. And they've gone through lives long enough to. To believe in what they believe in, and I'm not going to necessarily meddle with that, and ruin our own relationships I feel like for me, I'd rather be a daughter to them, and I love them, I care for them, and I support their decisions in life and I want the freedom to live my own life I try to keep our relationship very loving and caring and try not to get, like, I'm a peace seeker, like, I don't try to get into fights actively with them, to the point that I actually spend very little time talking about Bitcoin with them, and both of them, they don't speak English, I will ask them to watch my show if they were to speak English but they don't. So, they will just have to trust me that I'm using my best

judgment. That's a very healthy attitude toward orange pilling. I think everybody has their own journey, right? You never know what might trigger them to start asking questions. So yeah, exactly. Yeah. What about your friends? What is it like talking to other 20 year olds about

Bitcoin? Right. So my current friend group they are, some of them are Bitcoin investors and they are huddlers, but they wouldn't necessarily be Bitcoiners, like they wouldn't identify themselves as Bitcoiners. They're not quite familiar with the values, my belief systems of the, the Bitcoin ecosystem, and that's totally fine. I would consider them normie friends or friends with a good Bitcoin exposure, and that's great financially. I am not toxic at all, like you can, in my own social circle, if you're not on Twitter. And follow me on Twitter. Like they can typically have no idea that I'm a big quitter. Like in my personal Instagram, it's a private account and there's like zero Bitcoin content out there. So I try, I'm, I'm not like toxic in that way. To have to like never shout about Bitcoin and talk about Bitcoin all the time, like I'm not that person. I'm already working in the space enough and I like to expose myself In different aspects, and I don't think I'm fully defined with only the label Bitcoiner, and I have like many other sides outside of my work and in my social life. But I make sure that people around me that I care about do know I'm a Bitcoiner to the point that if they have any questions, I make myself available to answer these questions. I make myself available to help them set up things cause it can be very confusing, all the address and copy and paste and the anxiety of setting up a transaction. Like I've been through all of that, so I'm there to help them if they need. But I'm not going to be the person that actively like hold the flag of talking about this all the time.

Again, I feel like that is such a healthy way of viewing it. my husband and I, when we talked to our four kids, we have this sense of urgency because we have lived through, decades of experience in the current financial system and we've felt the pain of it. Being so unfair. And so we have this sense of urgency to pass on our knowledge and our wisdom. And of course, the more you try to do that, the more your audience is going to be like, Whoa, Whoa, that's too much, you know, so I should take the advice from you and just like, chill, just sit back and relax.

I think at the end of the day, it's about what they care about. And like I'm coming from a marketing background and the number one thing we kind of learned is that you have to understand what your target audience wants in this case. Like, what do they care about? Because just like I started live with Bitcoin to focus on the human side, because I don't care about the technical stuff. Like I don't care about. Like, banks falling down, it's too much, too much for me. But I'm, I'm interested in humans. I'm interested in human stories and how they've become who they are. So you just have to understand what they care about and what they think is cool, especially for kids. Like being cool is a big thing. And then try to spin Bitcoin or find the commonality between what they think is cool. And with Bitcoin, and they'll be like, Oh, I want to be cool. And how can I be cool through Bitcoin? And then they will be like, more interested,

right? Okay, so how can you be cool with Bitcoin? What would you suggest? For kids? Well, for I would say high schoolers and up, I think little kids are easy. They are so easy. They have no filter that they have put up no walls. You tell them something like okay I love working with the little kids, but I'm talking teenagers and up.

Mm hmm well, just thinking on the spot, maybe like sometimes like a Bitcoin as a payment message. So for example, if they're into, let's say K pop, and then they want to buy this piece of CD or this, this poster from someone on the internet, and then you can pay them by Bitcoin, and he arrives instantly or, or this person only takes Bitcoin, you have to buy it with Bitcoin. Otherwise, you cannot have this CD that you really want. You have to find a use case there for them. So that can be one thing. And then maybe when you give the money, but instead of give them pocket money, you say, I'll only give you this money in Bitcoin. And then if they want the money, they'll have to, like, figure out themselves how to receive, right? Because they want the money. They will go through the hustle just so that they can receive that pocket money. And then they go, actually go through that learning process themselves and figuring things out. It's a great entry point for Bitcoin. Later on when if they have some Bitcoin left, they're going to be saying, Oh, like it's going up. It has doubled and tripled. And then they'll be like, Oh, this is this is something because normal money doesn't do that.

That's so true. Here's my concern, though. I have four kids. The first one I was able to orange pill, she went into Bitcoin as it was sliding downward when I went from 68 to 16. And so if we were to give them a wallet and they're watching their money go down the slide. What do you tell them? Because it's still going up and down right now.

Yes. And this is particularly why I, why I'm not toxic and talk about Bitcoin with all of my friends because of this, because of this, like, I don't want to be that person. And if they ask for my thoughts on Bitcoin, I will tell them, if you are not willing to hold it for at least two years, just don't bother with it at all. I tell them before they get into it to have the mindset of hodling. Before I even tell them to get into it, because it's guaranteed if they see the price going down from 60 to 16, then obviously they're going to be like, what the heck, right? But I think to your question, it will come back to the fundamental values of, it's, it's not just money, it is money, and it's primarily money, but it's way bigger than money, and it's about the type of person you want to be. It's about the life you want to create for yourself and the people you care about now and the future and I would actually go back to the roots of values and beliefs and why this is created in the first place and what is the impact because most kids are, especially bitcoiner kids are provided for and When you were a kid, and rightfully so, you don't have the understanding of how the monetary system work, how the society work, and I would actually take a step back to uncover some of the information about how the society works, how a family work, and the importance of having money and the importance of creating a life for yourself and how Bitcoin ultimately allow you to do that. And the very concept of Proof of work and lower time preference well, help them to build that conviction. And if you give them a wallet with some Bitcoin in it, you should advise them at least don't touch it for a couple of years. And then maybe you'll have some pushback, but they will know in two years. Do you

have some resources that you can recommend to young people that are really cool that accept Bitcoin or is Bitcoin

only? A really good educational source that I have that, that I can recommend. It's called Why Bitcoin Only? I think it's whybitcoinonly.com. It's it's actually put together by a friend of mine and you can find why Bitcoin only on Twitter as well. This is someone who spent endless amount of hours to put together a comprehensive. Logical order of Bitcoin on the internet by the most prominent thinkers in the space and put together a comprehensive guide for people to understand. The concept Bitcoin is implication. So it's definitely a really great resource to look into. If, especially if you're like the researchy type. There's so many good information out there, but that site and the account is one of the most comprehensive and well put together guide that's out there about Bitcoin. And so that's on the educational side. There are many, many companies and resources brands are accepting Bitcoin. And I know that like for teenagers, for example, a lot of the time they spend on listening to music, like, like pop culture. And they are right now we're seeing artists taking kind of Bitcoin donations or Bitcoin tips. And maybe if they find. The artists that they like, they wanna support and they can support in Bitcoin. And these are great entry points.

the two men you interviewed in the K-pop industry, Billy and Beck. They were mentioning specifically about K pop music and one of them mentioned that there's a lightning store. K pop is so popular now with young people. It doesn't matter which culture you're from. Everybody loves K pop. So what website were there specifically addressing when they were talking about the K pop lightning store?

Right. both of them, they're working on a Bitcoin music project called The Way You Believe, and the website is wyb.so. The background is Chani. He used to be an K pop idol, like a solid K pop idol in a singing group. And then later on he became professional producer and singer songwriter. And he can, he originally connected with Jimmy Song and then got inspired to do a Bitcoin music project called the Way You Believe, because Bitcoin changes our way to believe. About many things. So that's the idea of the song and they're trying to leverage the influence of K pop and the well production of it to bring Bitcoin mainstream. So that's the essence of the project. And what they were saying is that there's a a huge crypto culture in, South Korea, and very, very little people are actually Bitcoin only. So their music is on they have their own site, but it's, there is also hosted on a site where I think they have a lightning donation part and it's a website that hosts a lot of music projects and receive support through lightning network, I think.

Are you referring to the website? That's called wave lake.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's the one, yeah.

Okay. but wyb. so is their specific website for that project. Okay. I just want to gather some resources for. Young people who

want to go into Bitcoin with something fun. Yeah, and I even contributed my voice in their project. I was the first one to record a demo for, for their demo sound. Like I was acting as the lead vocal. So if you tune back to that episode at the end, you actually like hear my singing in

the demo. That's really fun. So you're also a singer. Well, it's my hobby. Very fun. And are you streaming for sats right now with your songs?

No. I would like to though. I would like to. Like singing is one of my, like, less known trades or things about me, but I really do enjoy singing. I played music growing up and music till today is like still. A lot of a source of happiness, and my speaker is permanently on when I'm at work at home so it's definitely, definitely an area of interest of, of mine growing up, so I, I think. Music things, just hobbies in general that people care about. And if we find a common connection between these hobbies and Bitcoin, then they're going to be, it's going to be natural for the, for everyone to, to get it at one point.

Yeah, for sure. So going back to your background of traveling. From China to Canada, to the UK, back to Canada, are you noticing any sort of cultural differences in terms of Bitcoin adoption?

Actually, I don't know because I don't encounter a lot of Bitcoiners around me. Most Bitcoiners I've seen are on Bitcoin conferences and naturally so. I think we're still very much, very early. In, in the space that we don't encounter, like it's still a very, it's a, it's a thrill if you see a bitcoiner on the street and you instantly identify them. Like I'm usually the one who wears like Bitcoin related shirts outside. And I sometimes get eyed for it because not everybody understand this. I have the statement on my hinge profile, which is like a app to meet people and. There's a question, a prompt called we will get along if, and I say it will get along if you're a Bitcoiner and I have people specifically, they match with me just to send a vomiting emoji to that very statement. So we're that early. So I don't actually see tons of Bitcoiners in the physical locations that I'm in and I'm hoping this will change

very soon. I'm sorry you get those messages. That's awful. Come on, people. That's rude. I talked to a Bitcoiner woman who said, I don't know if I can ever date somebody who's not Bitcoiner going forward.

I kind of share that. I kind of share that. It will at this point is not a deal breaker. But if if they send me the vomiting emoji to that very statement, of course, like that's like a that's like a no, hard no. But I also recognize there's so many Bitcoiners out there who don't know that they're Bitcoiners yet. Like they already have these values installed. They already believe they feel a steep signs of frustration with what's going on in the world today and don't know why and don't know how it can change. And what do you need to do is just introduce Bitcoin to them. And it'll be like instantly become Bitcoiners. Like these people are fine. But ultimately, ultimately I would definitely want my partner to be a Bitcoiner, like it's going to be a requirement,

I guess. Okay, any last suggestions for women who are still sitting on the fence about Bitcoin?

I think this doesn't specifically apply to Bitcoin, but really with everything women are very resilient just resilient species in general. And oftentimes the drawback of it is that we're too adaptive in the, in the sense that we sometimes take a more passive approach to adapt the environment around us, rather than taking a proactive approach to create the environment around us. So what I would encourage everybody that's out there, not only on the fence of Bitcoin, but on, but just in general to be more intentional in life, to think about if I'm, training myself to get used to something, or if this is something that I want and I like to have train ourselves to have more autonomy. To make more active decisions based on our beliefs and our values, instead of just accommodating people around us and trying to fit in the blank space, rather we create space for ourselves, we create the life that we want to live and take a more proactive approach, and when you start doing that, you will start to see so many things are wrong. There's so many things that you don't necessarily agree with, but you're playing along for the sake of it. Women are more on the front of peace seekers. So sometimes we would be agreeable just to avoid conflicts. Yeah, I suggest everybody to reconsider that approach. Just be more intentional and less afraid of putting ourselves out there. Make authentic decisions, be more true to ourselves and be more real. Social issues and economy is not a patent for men. And these things, if explained well, are not too complicated for everyday women out there. And this is what we're doing at Life with Bitcoin by focusing on individual stories, like those are the things on the emotional side. These are the things that women can relate better. And I believe it will help. And I'm very excited to do my share for the community. But yeah, just live intentionally. Do things with a more proactive approach. And we're already on the low time preference standard. So that's already done. And then. One day or another the, the puzzles will piece together and it will lead to Bitcoin.

Well said, well said. Thank you so much, Vivian. It was so wonderful chatting with you. Thank you so much for sharing your Bitcoin story with

us. Yeah, of course. Thanks for reaching out and to stay in touch. I'm B t c Viv, so B T C V I V on Twitter. And the show is called Life With Bitcoin. It's also on Twitter. It's Life with Bitcoin, but wi just n w so l I s E W. I'm on YouTube as well, and feel free to reach out if there's anything I can help.

Thanks for joining us today If the discussion with our guest resonated with you and you would like to dive deeper into the world of Bitcoin, don't miss out on joining the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club. The meetup link is in the show notes. Also, if there are women in your life whom you think would both enjoy and benefit from learning more about Bitcoin, please share Orange Hatter with them. Until next time, bye!