When I'm asked this question, so many stories come to mind.

But I love telling stories about songwriting because I do a lot of songwriting with people.

But nine times out of 10, 9.9 times out of 10, the people I'm working with have never written a song before, have never touched an instrument before.

And I invite songwriting in as a way to express themselves.

So people look at me like I can't write a song, and I say, you don't have to do the heavy musical lifting.

I do that.

You tell me your story.

So I'm thinking about a young woman who.

We did a lot of live music together for relaxation.

But she told me about her son and her son was 2 at the time, just a really little guy.

And she said, I want to give him something that he can always have because I know that I'm not going to be around for the rest of his life.

So I'd like to write something for him that he can have at his wedding.

So she and I wrote a song for her son, her two year old son, that he would then be able to play when he got married, whenever that was.

So she and I guided her and I asked her, you know, what do you want your son to feel when he hears this song?

What do you want him to think about when he feels sad or misses you?

What are some words of wisdom you want to pass on?

So she would tell me all of this and together we crafted it into verses in a chorus and recorded it together.

She would speak the verses, she'd say, you know, I want you to always remember this.

I want you to always think of this.

And I would play music in the background and then I sang the chorus because she didn't want to sing.

Yeah.

I'm not.

Are you familiar with the.

Are you familiar with the music in memory organization by any chance?

Because I see some parallels there to the work that you do and the work that they do.

I am, I am.

Were you interviewing them recently?

In a little.

We spoke to them a couple months ago actually.

Yeah, I think I saw that.

That's awesome.

So, yes, I am familiar with their work and I think we are all different sides of the same coin, as it were, or like different elements of the same sphere.

Like we are all doing the same thing.

We just approach it differently, which is so cool.

And that goes for performers and teachers, therapists, music and memory practitioners, researchers.

We're all doing the same thing.

It's just we're approaching it from different angles.

So I love the work of the music and memory Folks, I think it's extraordinary.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I agree.

Which is kind of the reason why we even wanted to have the conversation with you to begin with, because I'm just.

We're both so really fascinated at the connection that music and just mental health and Alzheimer's and memory have in general.

It's incredible.

Really, really fascinating stuff.

Definitely.

So when you started with the hospital, was this still a brand new program at that point or did they have something existing?

It was.

They didn't have anything.

And I'm really lucky that my mentor took a chance on me.

He was head of psychiatry and psychosocial care, we call it.

So Dr.

Gary Roden said, okay.

He said, I'll take a chance on you.

And I did a student internship for about a year and a half.

So I worked there as a student.

And he said, you know, kind of show us what this is and then we'll take it from there.

I did a research project and hung out with lots and lots of patients and families, and by the end of my time as a student, there was a high demand for the service.

So then it turned into a position.

Oh, wow, that's.

Yeah.

Can you share some kind of the research that you have done to show the effectiveness of your work?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I certainly started out researching the experience of being a recipient of music therapy while on a palliative care floor.

So we have a 12 bed palliative care floor at Princess Margaret.

And I captured people's experiences through interviews and recording our sessions.

And the two main themes that came out of that were comfort and connection.

They felt so fundamentally comforted by having the music, it feeling really connected to this idea of lullaby, of being soothed, of being cared for without words.

So when they heard music, live music especially, that's what came up.

And really connecting to their.

Either their identities, their family members, themselves.

To me, there was a sense of really linking.

And that didn't happen really with recorded music as much as it did with live music, but certainly there were elements.

I recently finished my doctoral research and that was in the experience of music therapy during assisted dying, which we know is now legal in Canada.

So that was the focus of my.

The last few years.

And another research project that we're working on is the experience of adolescents and young adults doing group music therapy.

So that's been really cool too.

Why did you, just out of curiosity, why did you decide to focus on music related to assisted dying?

So, great question.

When it became legal in Canada and people started requesting it at the hospital, they asked Me to be there.

And it.

It threw me for a loop.

I didn't expect that.

I don't know why I didn't expect that, but I just thought, wow, why music?

Why music as part of MAID is the acronym Medical Assistance in Dying.

And I kept getting asked to come to these procedures and to work with these people beforehand and to connect with their family after.

And I got really curious and it really affected me being in this work.

And I thought, I need to.

I need to look at this from a research perspect.

So I had the privilege of working with 10 people and 10 caregivers that were connected with each person.

And I got to spend time with them in the weeks leading up to their procedure and then during their assisted death and then connected with their family after.

So lots and lots of interviews.

And I titled the study Exit Music.

And that's been.

Is that after Radiohead?

It was very much inspired by Radiohead.

I love that.

Good call.

Wow.

That's fascinating.

Fascinating stuff.

I'm really.

Yeah.

I'm blown away at the connection that music has to our brains.

And do you know, maybe what it is about live music that might be the.

A little bit more resonating with people as opposed to recorded music.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think that, you know, the connections and the associations are.

They're always strong with music, but I always think that it's the reactions I can have and the adaptability of the live musician that I notice.

If someone starts to cry, I slow the music down.

If someone starts to fall asleep, I watch for reactions and I then can comment on them afterwards or gently explore them with people.

I've watched loved ones literally curl up with their.

With their person in their hospital bed because they hear a song that meant something to them at their wedding, and.

And then they can tell me stories and then I can react to that as opposed to.

The recording is so amazing and beautiful, but it won't slow down or stop or hand you a Kleenex box if you start.

Yeah.

That physical connection and the energy that's shared in the room is probably so impactful as well.

Exactly.

It's all about the relationship.

Like with any, you know, psychiatrist, therapist, counselor, that connection you make with someone and people have to trust you in order to let you sing for them.

I think when you're very vulnerable and that trust can often be very therapeutic in and of itself, that I show up even if things are crappy.

And I think that's the power of the live music therapist for sure.

What does your typical workday look like.

Hmm.

I'm often in interdisciplinary rounds in the morning, so that means our whole team meets and our whole team discusses every patient.

So that happens at the hospice, that happens on palliative care, that happens in bone marrow transplant.

So I try and show up to as many team meetings as I can, and then I offer my perspective from what I've seen from the patient.

And I often get new referrals that way.

So, you know, the physiotherapist might say, hey, Sarah Rose, like, our guy in this room is having a really hard with energy and motivation.

Can you meet with them?

Or hey, Sarah's.

This person is close to the end of life.

They probably have a few hours left and the family wanted to have some music.

Can you meet with them?

So I kind of get.

Triage is the word.

I get my referrals.

I think about who I'm going to see, and then I've got the day ahead of me to connect with different people and have sessions.

But right now I have two graduate students working with me, which is so great.

I have that once a year for a few months.

And so I'm teaching a lot as well, which is really fun.

Yeah.

Wow.

How do you prepare yourself mentally, daily or even throughout the day?

This is.

It always feels like the million dollar question because it can change day to day.

And I feel like it's something that palliative care providers in particular, but healthcare workers in general have to ask themselves every day.

And some days I'm better than others.

It's certainly tough to show up to the work every day.

At times, I rely really heavily on my team, like the docs and the nurses and the social workers and everyone from the housekeepers to the support staff.

We all really rely on each other and check in with each other, like, how are you doing?