[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to How To Be Human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: In this episode, Anna and I discuss vulnerability.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat, clear your mind, and let's chat.

[00:00:22] Nina Endrst: Hello.

[00:00:24] Anna Toonk: Hi.

[00:00:25] Nina Endrst: I'm really excited. I can't contain myself.

[00:00:27] Anna Toonk: I am too. It's funny sometimes with these, what I like about working with you, besides lots of things is besides everything it's true. I mean, one of our first meetings, I said, you were perfect, and it made you wildly uncomfortable, but I stand by it.

[00:00:41] Nina Endrst: But I also was like, she's right.

[00:00:44] Anna Toonk: You're like, listen, it makes me a little uncomf. to liked admit it it, but like thank you for seeing me.

[00:00:50] Nina Endrst: Just kidding guys. I'm obviously just kidding.

[00:00:53] Anna Toonk: Is you'll suggest things that I wouldn't. Ya know, which I guess is the whole point of light talking to other human beings. But ideally, but at first, when you were like, what do you think about pessimism and optimism? I was like, I don't think much about it. And then in preparing, oh, that's our topic today, pessimism and optimism. But I thought a lot about it.

This was a, I think Nina would probably won't well, she might agree with this. Let's see how it goes, but she's like a little bit of like a sleeper hit where she would say, she's very Aries and like, I am clear, I'm telling you, but like sometimes she sneaks a little medicine in there and you didn't even realize, and that's how I felt about this week's topic.

[00:01:38] Nina Endrst: Wait, wait back it up. Be more specific.

[00:01:42] Anna Toonk: Be more specific?

[00:01:43] Nina Endrst: You think I'm a sleeper hit? Did you say now?

[00:01:45] Anna Toonk: Yes I did. I don't know if that's a term I want and might be confusing words totally possible, but I think you're clear. I think every once in a while, you give me a little nugget and you know what you've given me, but I don't at the time. And then I'm like, oh yeah.

[00:02:04] Nina Endrst: A little sneak attack.

[00:02:04] Anna Toonk: You knew full well, you were like, let's see. Or maybe not. I don't know that

[00:02:08] Nina Endrst: No, I knew exactly what I was doing.

[00:02:13] Anna Toonk: Yeah, I had a feeling.

[00:02:16] Nina Endrst: I see what you're saying. I thought you meant I'm asleep at the wheel and then every now and then I pick up my head, and I was like, I resent that.

[00:02:24] Anna Toonk: Yeah, you're the least snoozey person. And it's kind of funny. Like, I mean, despite her perfection, occasionally Nina makes mistakes.

[00:02:32] Nina Endrst: I'm a perfectionist - it's bad.

[00:02:35] Anna Toonk: And I've never seen anyone get more mad than I almost am like, oh man, she missed this and she's going to be real mad.

[00:02:42] Nina Endrst: I know. Like I told Anna the other day, I asked her if she's...

[00:02:46] Anna Toonk: Not asleep at the wheel, not asleep.

[00:02:48] Nina Endrst: Definitely not. I'm like, what do you mean? What I asleep? Was that earlier? Was I tired? I was tired. I'm sorry. No, I asked you the other day. I'm like, did you know I was a control freak? Like what? I just found out that I am a perfectionist.

[00:03:00] Anna Toonk: I laughed so hard. I laughed so hard. And I was like, aw baby, no, you didn't know? Did you really not know?

[00:03:09] Nina Endrst: Well, here's the thing I feel like not really. It was a surprise attack. It was a sneaky one. I feel like because when people tell you you're messy all the time. I couldn't possibly believe that that would somehow perfectionism was like the opposite to me.

[00:03:29] Anna Toonk: That's a great point. And that's something that I went through in my own journey of realizing I am a perfectionist as well. I guess I'm a recover or recovering perfectionist. But that'll have to be something we dive into.

[00:03:46] Nina Endrst: So let's talk about what we're talking about, which is pessimism and optimism. Not choosing.

[00:03:52] Anna Toonk: Nope. I'm giving you some definitions. Pessimism: a tendency to see the worst aspect of things or believe that the worst will happen. A lack of hope or confidence in the future. I don't know why I find it so funny.

[00:04:10] Nina Endrst: Probably cause it's like New Yorkers.

[00:04:12] Anna Toonk: Well, it's so like brutal.

[00:04:14] Nina Endrst: It's exactly. That's what I think of New Yorker, right? Like it's just like, well, we're all gonna fucking die anyway. So might as well...

[00:04:21] Anna Toonk: And then it says like philosophy, a believe that this world is as bad as it could be or that evil will ultimately prevail over good.

[00:04:30] Nina Endrst: That's classic. I love that. That's so uplifting.

[00:04:35] Anna Toonk: Oh, shit. Like oh my god.

[00:04:37] Nina Endrst: The end is here.

[00:04:39] Anna Toonk: So then optimism. And this is according to the Oxford dictionary for both definitions. I realize I haven't been giving a source or I don't know. Maybe I do. Optimism: hopefulness and confidence about the future or the successful outcome of something. Philosophy, the doctrine, especially as set forth by Leibniz that the world is the best of all possible worlds.

[00:05:08] Nina Endrst: Stark contrast.

[00:05:09] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Yeah. We have like, I mean, what really got me about pessimism. I mean, so I went down this real rabbit hole in terms of these definitions, which...

[00:05:19] Nina Endrst: You can't say that anymore. That's a Q thing. Can't say it. Strike that from the record. You now have to say...

[00:05:27] Anna Toonk: Well, it comes from Alice in Wonderland, so those bitches can't rob us of that.

[00:05:31] Nina Endrst: But that's not what we mean by the way.

[00:05:34] Anna Toonk: No, I god, Q is like, let's round up the dumbest fucking people in wellness and like give them a political ideology. It's so bad. So, it was interesting. Like, I hadn't really thought about it, but I didn't think about how these are truly philosophies. And so anytime you get into philosophy all of a sudden it's like, I need an adult. Like I felt like I was drowning pretty quickly in research of just like all this stuff, because no one I think really wants to say something clearly.

In like in philosophy, you're sort of allowing for all this possibility. It was interesting though how it got down to like Nietzsche and like the theory of like morality and like all this sort of stuff. And I hadn't thought about how for me, I boiled down pessimism and optimism to essentially like, you know, the example of like the glass half full, the glass half empty or whatever, but also kind of good and bad, you know. But when I saw in the definition for pessimism a lack of hope or confidence in the future, I was like, shit, am I turning into a pessimist?

You know, because it's kind of garbagy out right now. But I think one of the best things we have in life available to us almost at any time is hope. And so the idea of committing your life philosophy to something with a lack of hope is like just crazy to me.

[00:07:07] Nina Endrst: I think it's so unintentional though.

[00:07:10] Anna Toonk: True true true true.

[00:07:11] Nina Endrst: You know, I don't think people even know that the things that come out of their mouths are mostly pessimistic. And I mean, I grew up around a lot of that I feel. So for me, I think I sometimes go to optimism, you know, to soothe because I'm like, okay, everybody else thinks it's going to be bad, but I have to be the one who's like, no, it's going to be great. It's going to be great. Or it's a hard no.

But it's, it's difficult I think when you grow up around people or you're around people in general that have a more pessimistic outlook to I think lean in when you do have a bad feeling and not feel like you're being negative. Right.

[00:07:51] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I think with pessimism, like I sort of call bullshit because if you think that everything's bad and there's no point and there's no hope and you have no hope for the future, then what are you doing here?

Like quit paying your bills. Like then just become an anarchist in my opinion. That so often I think people are pessimistic just out of fear, and it's like fear of disappointment, or it just seems like this like protective measure. I have a hard time really believing. It's also such a victim mentality, which you and I really try to stay away from. And I think like I just get, I mean, no offense to anyone listening who is a pessimist.

[00:08:33] Nina Endrst: I understand why you are.

[00:08:34] Anna Toonk: I get kind of grossed out though sometimes of this. Like if everything's bad and everything's negative and you assume nothing's ever going to work out for you, you assume everything's against you. I don't know, then like go find your cave in the mountain. I don't know. I also think that...

[00:08:49] Nina Endrst: Anna is serving realness today. I'm going to take a gentler approach to the pessimists. I don't damn you to the mountains of isolation. I think it's very, very closely linked to depression as well.

[00:09:14] Anna Toonk: Well, I was going to ask you like my mom's not a pessimist, but my mom I think is a bit pessimistic, but like actually she calls it like that she's a realist. And I would say I strive to be a realist, which realism doesn't get a full definition really because it's sort of considered a philosophy in relation to other things.

So it's difficult to really define it in of itself, but it's essentially like that you try to be in reality. What is real. You're trying to decipher what is real. And I think with both pessimism and optimism, I don't think either one is particularly real.

[00:09:49] Nina Endrst: Agree.

[00:09:49] Anna Toonk: And my question for you, like, it's something I resent, I guess, about both, to be honest, but maybe it's little bit easier to. I'm going to ask this first, because I think we're going to have a larger conversation about the toxicity of like toxic positivity slash like toxic optimism, but, or maybe blind optimism. But I think I resent sometimes with pessimism, how pervasive it is. That I feel when I'm around pessimistic people, I get envelop like in a cloud of their funk. Do you feel that way?

[00:10:28] Nina Endrst: Uh, I think, uh...

[00:10:31] Anna Toonk: Besides your guttural uhh.

[00:10:33] Nina Endrst: I can literally feel it. It's very and I use this word sparingly because it's very triggering for me to be around a lot of dense pessimism.

[00:10:46] Anna Toonk: Yeah.

[00:10:46] Nina Endrst: And it affects my body and it affects me and, you know, listen, I don't think the world's a nice place to live in.

[00:10:53] Anna Toonk: Yeah,

[00:10:54] Nina Endrst: I'm a realist, but I also tend to be pessimistic about the future sadly, on a global level. Because nothing has really changed except for global warming. And so when I look back, it has, but sometimes I look and I'm like, really, like, we're still doing the same fucking shit, you know? And there's still massive abuse happening everywhere.

I saw something today quickly. It was just like a headline. It was like, you know, no charges will be filed. I think it was like a prince, I dunno, one of those UK people. Royalty or something that someone accused him of sexual assault. He said he didn't do it. End of story, and I was like, oh, really not shocking. Next.

Like, I don't have an optimistic view about laws changing and I'm not saying I won't continue to be active as much as possible, but I don't feel optimistic about the system.

[00:11:52] Anna Toonk: Yeah, but could that be realist?

[00:11:55] Nina Endrst: Yeah.

[00:11:56] Anna Toonk: I mean, like that's what evidence supports.

[00:11:57] Nina Endrst: Right, right. Exactly. But I think I have a lot of shame and worry around becoming a pessimist. So often I've become optimistic. Anna called me out on this once and I was like, God damn it. She's right. But I'm really good at accepting that information. I think, I mean, I, I, didn't used to be great at criticism, but I'm good at it now. And I was like, that's very helpful.

But I like to tell a backstory about people often when they're like screwing us over, and Anna's like, you love a backstory and I'm just trying to like, you know. And, and I think because I have this fear that I'm going to say too much that is too negative and people are going to believe that I believe, and I don't have hope. And I do. That's why I'm fucking here. That's everything that I feed in my life is from a place of hope and really, truly.

Also super, super optimistic people drive me insane. And I know and scare me because I don't, I don't trust them. I don't trust that what they say. I don't trust what they're delivering to me. It's just - I dunno if that's the New York in me or the, like, I've been, you know, it's just, it reads as bullshit often. And I'm not saying positive people, I'm saying overly positive, overly optimistic people.

[00:13:25] Anna Toonk: Well, there's trusts involved, you know. So, I think if you don't know someone, and I think a lot of people who are optimists, maybe toxic optimist let's hold space for that. That if you say like, essentially, if you're just like, trust me, it's going to work out. Trust me. I'm like, bitch, I don't know you. Like and it might.

[00:13:47] Nina Endrst: You're going to be a star.

[00:13:49] Anna Toonk: And you're going to be a star. It's like, you may be incredible. You may do some of the best work on the planet, but I don't know.

[00:13:56] Nina Endrst: But also, you don't know. Right? Like let's just see what happens.

[00:14:00] Anna Toonk: Right, like it has to be earned in my opinion. So I find people weaponize it a lot. And especially, I think women are really tapped into avoiding being labeled negative, difficult, all these sorts of things. And I know for me that my Papa had a little bit of a drinking problem, AKA was an alcoholic, and it wasn't really addressed in the family structure.

[00:14:26] Nina Endrst: That's the Southern way of saying it, right?

[00:14:30] Anna Toonk: Honestly, possibly. Yeah. I mean they would, how would they say that? Yeah, well, he's maybe like he's got a problem with the bottle, AKA like he's alcoholic. He had just a little bit of a drinking problem, and I would be from a young age, and I would be a little like, this doesn't seem to be working. Is anyone gonna, like, I don't know, address this? And it was like don't be negative. Don't be like both about shit that was directly negative.

And I know like also too, when I've tried to talk to people sometimes about trauma or whatever, I've been just kind of like, this is what I'm working with, or this is what I'm dealing with, you know. It's like, don't be negative and it's fuck that. You know, like pain is negative. It doesn't feel good. I think people can be exploring complex things or reacting to something negative or processing trauma, and that doesn't make them a negative person or a pessimistic one. But this constant like, oh my God, you're going to be lost to the dark side or some shit is so oppressive, you know.

[00:15:36] Nina Endrst: Let's talk about funerals. Oh, go ahead.

[00:15:40] Anna Toonk: Sure, sure.

[00:15:41] Nina Endrst: I want to talk about silver linings.

[00:15:44] Anna Toonk: Interesting.

[00:15:46] Nina Endrst: The grass is greener, no not that one.

[00:15:48] Anna Toonk: Hate that shit.

[00:15:48] Nina Endrst: Hate that one too, but like he's in a better place. The positive spins.

[00:15:53] Anna Toonk: Bridget uses a great word for those, you know, and when we do DPC, Dead Parent Club, which if you are listener with a dead parent, you're welcome to join us every Wednesday, 7:00 PM, Eastern Standard Time in Clubhouse. But Bridget has a good rule about that, of like no platitudes.

[00:16:10] Nina Endrst: Ooh I love that. I just love that word.

[00:16:12] Anna Toonk: Same same, same, same. And I was like, oh yeah, that's what it is. I am very anti platitude. Cause like when has that ever helped someone? Like, listen, I've experienced a lot of loss and I'm still that asshole out there saying to someone who's recently lost someone like, I'm sorry. Like at least they're not suffering.

And I'm like, why the fuck did I just say that? But it's like, cause we don't have language, and I've gotten better about just saying to someone like, I hate this for you. Like that's it. That's what I mean, you know. But I think funerals and all of that. I don't think a lot of like stuff funerals, grief in general, has to be inherently negative.

There's also like a lot of power in ceremony and ritual and marking things. Like I know for tons of people, you know, tons of clients, like they're often dealing with something. Shocker, I guess, they're often dealing with something. Deep thoughts. But, I often like give them homework that's essentially like a ritual, you know, for what they're dealing with. Of like go read this thing or go, cause I do think we need, I personally learn visually and I think it's kinetic, but like touch, you know. Like to being able, I even touched my own like computer screen all the time, you know?

Cause it's just how it cements in my brain. So I think sometimes with either something that's pessimistic or optimistic or like positive or negative. It's helpful to have something that sort of like marks and encapsulates that, you know. Because even just saying like, oh yeah, I'm essentially negative or I'm pessimistic. I don't have any hope like how does that really help you in your day-to-day life?

[00:17:58] Nina Endrst: Yeah. And also I'm more interested too, not more interested, but I'm also interested in why or how we've become so uncomfortable with the possibility of being negative that we go over the line optimistic or positive or to ensure that we're not viewed as, or we don't hear ourselves as just like in a place of pain or quiet.

[00:18:26] Anna Toonk: I think it's social isolation. Or, I mean, don't you think like, I mean, I'm speaking as a woman. I think that it's like, you're always dealing with a little bit of this grab bag of like, what am I willing to be perceived as? You know, or like, what strikes do I want against me this time? You know, or something.

And so I think like sometimes I'm like, I don't give a shit, I will push harder. You know? Like, I don't care if you label me. I mean, honestly, my last job in television, it was really hard because I was sort of, or I was in a very technical role with working for people who didn't want to hear anything about technology and especially didn't want any negative news.

And so a lot of my work was essentially like workflow and like pipeline, you know, of like, okay, for this promo to make air by this date, this is what needs to happen. And they're always like, nope, never been interested in that a day in my life. Just tell me it's going to happen. And I'm like, it was infuriating and it, but honestly, one of the hardest parts was being like labeled negative and difficult.

When I was doing everything in my power, like to excel. You know, I was like, but I'm the hero I'm going to make it happen. How in the world do you think we can be at a television network and you can't care about technology? It was just like insane.

[00:19:49] Nina Endrst: I mean, it is insane. I think so many of the women that I work with and I feel this way too, are just not... My family didn't do this to me, which I'm very grateful for. My mother actually very much drilled it in early to be, you know, vocal and independent and not really give a fuck what people think. But also you go into the world and you just become in the world, you know, and people are demanding a smile of you and demanding that you receive advances from men you don't want with a laugh right. Or something.

And it just becomes so part of you, that's what grosses me out. It's like, there's a little story. It's about three seconds, but my dad and I were driving in the car when I was a little kid and he said something and I was in a car seat. I was very little, and I was like, Ugh, you men. And he was like really annoyed obviously. And I still feel the same about that. You know, it's exhausting. I don't have an optimistic view when it comes to men in general. And you know, like you said, data, evidence, facts, but I think so many women feel a little bit like they have to perform in order to get love and acceptance and a career they want, or a husband and a family. And it's like, parts of them just die, you know?

[00:21:21] Anna Toonk: Oh, oof, yeah, big time.

[00:21:22] Nina Endrst: And it's like, you're not pessimistic because you see the truth in front of you. You're not negative because you don't want to be treated that way. You're not difficult or a challenge to be with in any way. You're just damned if you do and damned if you don't

[00:21:54] Anna Toonk: Yeah, I think that it took me a while to be kind of like, I don't care, you know, like to a certain degree, to a certain degree, you know? I mean, I think we all always care a little bit. But that I was just like my own truth and validating my truth matters more to me than how I'm perceived. Because I think, honestly, I find often when people are like performing pessimism or optimism, it feels manipulative. That very rarely do I think people can just stand in it and be like, you know what?

Like, I have a lot of admiration, honestly, for when people are being optimistic or whatever, and you've done this to me when I've been like I'm in my feels and I'm not happy about it. And you're like, you know what, let's just hope it does this, or let's hope that it turns around or whatever. And I'm like, that's fair. Yeah. Like, correct. You're right. Like, I do hope that essentially, you know. I don't mind at all when people just own it or say like, you know what, I'm really going to direct my energy towards this outcome. I may not understand it from a pessimistic standpoint, you know? That to me feels, I don't know, it feels real, it feels like their truth or whatever.

So it gives me permission to like, figure out how I feel about something. But I think I have also felt just like manipulated in general. Whether it was like someone being like, yeah, like everything's bad so like kind of come to my side. Or like, everything's going to be amazing, and I'm going to punish you if you don't affirm that. There's been a lot of like manipulations on both sides, you know? So I'm a little wary of each. And I threw it to my Instagram.

[00:23:41] Nina Endrst: Oh, yeah you did.

[00:23:43] Anna Toonk: You know, asking people, which was kind of funny. I mean, I love all of you. I love anyone who will respond to something.

[00:23:49] Nina Endrst: She does. She does.

[00:23:50] Anna Toonk: I do. And I liked that some said I'm an optimist. And to be honest, it's how I survive. I was like fair. Someone else avoiding extremes of both is happiness. I was like, interesting. And then there was some stuff where people just decided to like riff, and I'm going to avoid those.

[00:24:07] Nina Endrst: But we appreciate you.

[00:24:09] Anna Toonk: We do appreciate you. It just wasn't exactly the assignment. Either extreme can cause undue emotional distress, try realism, which I thought was helpful. And then my friend, Almond, who I adore so I want to name check her here. I want to hear more about how pessimism and optimism can have both up and downsides. And I was curious, what do you think is an upside?

[00:24:31] Nina Endrst: Upside of each? And downside? Okay. Upside of pessimism is, I mean, protection, honestly. I think of it more as I think too much of it. I think it's both right. I think it can protect you from people. And this brings me back to something we have been talking about doing a course on, you know, trusting your gut and information. And something you said, which was, we can't just tell people who don't know how to, or who have never done that to trust your gut. There are steps you need to take. We all do to kind of like be comfortable at that point and understand like what's, what's what.

And I think with pessimism, sometimes there are a lot of people are not out for our best interest. Unfortunately, you know, a lot of people just aren't. Like, it takes time to find people you can trust and, and then you definitely find the ones you don't. And I don't think that it's pessimism is going to protect you from that. But I do think that there's like a wariness and I'll like, doesn't seem quite right to me that I would lean, you know, toward positive in that way.

But I think it's also the negative because you could miss out on something or someone because you're afraid of it, or you just think nothing ever works out because nothing ever has or that's your view on it. So I think it's both positive and negative up and down for pessimism. Optimism, the positive is peace and connection, I'd say. Every time I infuse hope, I feel more connected to something bigger than myself. And that's very spiritual to me. It is the way I can act, I would say. And the downside is gaslighting, denying people or yourself the feelings that you need to feel or the truth you need to see.

[00:26:27] Anna Toonk: I like...

[00:26:28] Nina Endrst: Like it all, Anna..

[00:26:30] Anna Toonk: I like all I do, but I also really like optimism as a pathway to connection. Like that's very interesting. Something I found interesting on some, I think it was a philosophy website was talking about that people who practice blind optimism, they had done an 18 year study on Canadians.

[00:26:53] Nina Endrst: That sounds boring. Sorry. We love you. We love you. But...

[00:26:59] Anna Toonk: And they found blind optimism people generally die because they don't get yes, because they don't get the medical treatments they needed. Which I thought was, it was like something about like an increase of like 313% or something. But I thought that was fascinating.

[00:27:21] Nina Endrst: Anna, that's fascinating. Good tidbit.

[00:27:22] Anna Toonk: Same. Yeah.

[00:27:23] Nina Endrst: I want to know yours.

[00:27:24] Anna Toonk: So pessimism, I would say a positive is maybe you're managing your expectations of if you're not expecting anything or hoping for anything, then you're not going to be disappointed if you get nothing, you know. A downside I think is a bit self fulfilling prophecy. And also it feels to me, I'm not saying whether or not this is accurate. I'm saying that this is the way I perceive it. In that you're taking accountability out of it. And that if you assume everything's against you and there's no hope and the world is terrible, then you're also not looking at what part you play in things. And often I know it fucking sucks. I hate doing it as well. If we will look at what part we play in something. We can figure things out..

[00:28:13] Nina Endrst: That's where your power, a lot of the power lies, right?

[00:28:16] Anna Toonk: Yeah. And it sucks. It sucks. I get it. I mean, I'm not a huge fan.

[00:28:21] Nina Endrst: But it's very liberating I'd say.

[00:28:24] Anna Toonk: It is. I mean, and I think there are times, you know, that lesson is especially painful, and other times when it's like it wasn't so bad. But I do think in the context of pessimism, like, it feels like this way you could be avoiding your own growth, I guess, in a way. I guess something about that. I'm not quite sure how to articulate that.

[00:28:46] Nina Endrst: I think you did a great job.

[00:28:47] Anna Toonk: Thank you.

[00:28:48] Nina Endrst: Wholly and completely. And would like to, yes, just pat you on the back.

[00:28:54] Anna Toonk: Optimism I think like, I believe I'm not a religious person, but I would say that I have faith and try to practice having faith, you know? And I think optimism's like similar to how you said it's like a way to connect. I think optimism for me is like,a way to be open to better or more, or just what I want, you know. That, which I think can be really hard.

I always say in life and tarot like a lot of the more like positive cards, I think are some of the most triggering because it's like, we have language for negativity, like, and we have support for negativity. If something bad is happening in your life, people know how to be like, I'm sorry. I'm not saying people do a great job, but it's there. But for positive things, we don't always have language around that.

And people can have so many feelings, and I think optimism can be a little bit triggering in that regard of, but ultimately really expansive. You know, that if you'll be like, okay, it's a little scary or threatening, but I'm going to have faith. I'm gonna put my eggs in this basket and hope for the best, you know. So that faith and hope component, I think can be really expansive. Like not just to our lives, not just for like getting some cool shit or whatever, but like for your spirit. I think it can literally be expansive for your spirit.

A downside is I think it's a way that people can dismiss people's lived or felt experiences. And at the end of the day, you can't like optimism or optimistically your way out of really horrific things. Or, you know, I would hope if someone was telling me about something that had happened to them or trauma, or whether that's a client, it's a friend, it's a family member, whatever that it wouldn't be like, you just have to have hope for better. What does that do for them in that moment? How does anyone feel seen or acknowledged?

[00:30:48] Nina Endrst: Feed the light. Feed the light.

[00:30:49] Anna Toonk: Yes. Choose love. You're you're really choosing fear right now.

[00:30:56] Nina Endrst: That is. Now let me say this because, and I want to ask you how something as well. That's something we wanted to talk about, which was toxic positivity and optimism, essentially. And just that that's a very big red flag I'd say. When somebody tells you to just choose love or not choose fear. And that's not the same thing as pessimism.

Being a pessimist doesn't mean you're negative. Right? And it doesn't mean you don't get to feel negative feelings and doesn't mean you don't get to feel pain. It doesn't mean people don't hurt you. Right. That's just life. That's real. And optimism is not a fucking ticket to Ascension or whatever the hell. Bloating included.

[00:31:51] Anna Toonk: Tickets to paradise.

[00:31:54] Nina Endrst: Being optimistic, overly optimistic is also not seeing the world that is very clearly before our eyes, you know, and other people's suffering and your own suffering. And that is also, I don't believe a healthy choice. And if a teacher or a, somebody is telling you that you must choose one and deny the other. I would say that's very dangerous.

[00:32:22] Anna Toonk: That's a red flag.

[00:32:23] Nina Endrst: Yeah.

[00:32:23] Anna Toonk: Yes, I 100% agree with that. And I also think any teacher, doctrine, therapist, friend, lover, countrymen.

[00:32:44] Nina Endrst: If you run into some country men, and they're telling you...

[00:32:49] Anna Toonk: If they tell you any it's much, like, I don't really believe in diets that eliminate food unless you, you know, like you, your body literally can't handle them. I don't believe in anyone who says any feeling is bad, you know, or needs to be eliminated or not felt. Or, you know, you're somehow less than, but, you know. It's always to some kind of like moving target, you know, that you're like, okay, like, so I'll try to, like, if you like, I'll try to eliminate all negative feelings. I'm just going to choose love.

I'm just going to choose love, not fear, but you know, like, I just broke my leg, but I'm going to choose love, you know. To me, it's just like bizarre and unrealistic. But anybody who tells you it should be all like black and white thinking should always be a little bit of a red flag, in my opinion. Like the goal in a lot of ways is to be able to live and exist in the gray. It's incredibly difficult. That's why we have like a trillion modalities, philosophies and things about how to cope with that, you know.

[00:33:47] Nina Endrst: I have a question for you. What are you currently pessimistic about? And what are you currently optimistic about?

[00:33:53] Anna Toonk: Ooh, I'm currently pessimistic I think about maybe it's like not feminism, but I am a bit pessimistic about I guess maybe gender roles or something. I'm not really sure how to articulate it. But I would say like we're in the U.S. I would say, like, I'm a little pessimist. I don't know if I'm pessimistic or maybe I'm skeptical that like, will white men ever really be fully held accountable

[00:34:29] Nina Endrst: Pessimistic.

[00:34:30] Anna Toonk: And sort of dethrowned, you know, as the power holders in America. I may, I think I'm pessimistic.

[00:34:38] Nina Endrst: I think we all are on this podcast.

[00:34:42] Anna Toonk: Fully pessimistic about that. And I have to grapple with it because like, I don't really want to hate anyone. You know, I don't really want to give anything that much space in my life to be honest. But yeah, I'm a little, like I get encouraged, but I was watching the testimony of the gymnast about the FBI investigation. And something, I mean, God bless those women.

[00:35:08] Nina Endrst: For real.

[00:35:08] Anna Toonk: Like unreal courage and composure that they do not owe anyone. They are survivors of sexual assault. Even if they are Olympians, those things, don't cancel each other out they're victims. And for them to be saying to Congress, the Senate, I don't know, I'm not always good with details, you know, like you knew and you did nothing.

I mean like sometimes, like I just get really overwhelmed by that kind of stuff, you know, about just like, when are we going to essentially, I guess, hold men accountable, abusers accountable. You know, I'm pessimistic about that. I'm optimistic about maybe I know I'm white and I know to anyone who is from a marginalized community or not white in America, it feels so slow.

It feels so like it's not happening, but I'm optimistic that something's happening in terms of maybe, maybe social justice, you know. Like I don't think racism is really being addressed, but I think even with more things being recorded. More people circulating these things. More people saying things like more people developing language or awareness and like things becoming normalized. That it's becoming less and less shocking if someone's like trans for example, or someone's non binary that like. This normalization or seeing some pathway to normalization of like traditionally excluded marginalized communities gives me some optimism.

[00:36:48] Nina Endrst: I love that one. I do. I agree with both.

[00:36:54] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I was gonna say, what are yours?

[00:36:55] Nina Endrst: I'm pessimistic certainly about the same. I don't think I really don't believe that white men will ever be held accountable or ever fall from this horrific and unjust throne that they sit upon. I mean, I just had a guy running for fucking local office who gives a shit. I mean, you know, like congrats, but he, he...

[00:37:19] Anna Toonk: I mean, who gives a shit but congrats.

[00:37:23] Nina Endrst: I mean, no, be part of your local government. But he drives down my driveway, which is a very clearly a residence. It's not on a fucking block and just drives down my driveway to drop off his, his face his white guy face on a piece of paper. And I literally because my dogs are barking. Milo was like, who is that?

I walked to the door. He's literally parked in front of my door, walking up my stairs. I shut the door right in his face. And I was like, no, sir, not today. Because I think that I have so little hope for white men in particular that it is certainly pessimistic and that's just the truth. And it's been that way for a long time.

And optimistic. I'm optimistic about more people healing. And I think that it will continue to be, but I'm also pessimistic about how much trauma we continue to perpetuate and cycle through. So, you know, just my daily up and down.

[00:38:29] Anna Toonk: Yeah, the daily circle, you know. So to wrap up a little bit. To leave you something that's really exciting about being me is I just constantly find new things to find annoying. And I, it's just, it's something I've accepted about myself, so I'm not annoyed by it all the time. But I know these little annoyances always have a glimmer of information for me, which is what I think I'm the most annoyed about.

But I feel like lately whenever I put something out in the world, people want to like gild the lily or tell me how it could be better. And I feel sometimes, you know, it's been interesting. It's been teaching me things. So I would say to people like in terms of pessimism and optimism, don't be afraid to define for yourself, what that is. I think if you take what the meanings of those things are and think about the components. Like, do you have hope? You know, like, do you have hope for the future?

That doesn't mean you have to become an optimist. Like I know a lot of people who do have hope who would be like, fuck, no, I'm not an optimist. And that's why it's like, realism is available for us all, you know? I had a really interesting experience prepping for this episode. Like just really kind of thinking about these philosophies.

And so I would say too, and thinking about what my story was around it, and it's so much of it was this fear of being labeled negative. And it just kept coming up for me over and over and over and over again. And I would also encourage anyone to like challenge that story that wanting to be in reality, doesn't make you negative. And even if it does so, be it, you know. You can only really exist and lead the life that you want, if you are in reality.

So. Is negative to other people, let it be. There are worst things to be called. And to maybe start making your peace around that or like whatever, maybe your hot button is. Like, I know some people who tend to be optimistic and people are like, oh, you just have your head in the clouds. Like whatever that kind of dismissive thing people have sort of like kept you from kind of grounding. Like wherever you have I think faith or hope. See if you can reclaim that for yourself.

[00:40:48] Nina Endrst: Yeah. Or wherever you feel the most you.

[00:40:52] Anna Toonk: Yeah, totally. Like give yourself permission to be wherever you feel the most you.

[00:40:58] Nina Endrst: Thank you for talking to me about this. I loved it.

[00:41:01] Anna Toonk: Thank you for talking to me.

I loved it. I love talking to you talking to me talkingto each other. Thank you for listening guys. We'll talk to you next time. Bye.

[00:41:15] Nina Endrst: That's all for today's episode.

[00:41:17] Anna Toonk: If there's a topic you want us to discuss, please submit it on our website at thesoulunity.com/howtobehuman.

[00:41:23] Nina Endrst: If you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at the Soul Unity. Listeners get two weeks free by going to our website and visiting our podcast page.

[00:41:31] Anna Toonk: Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.