Matt Edmundson: Welcome to the eCommerce Podcast with
me, your host, Matt Edmundson.
This is a show all about helping you deliver ecommerce.
Wow.
And to help me do just that today, we're chatting with Will
Hare from Bellevix about how we do advertising on marketplace
platforms like Amazon.
Yes, we are.
And we were just chatting, actually.
That's why he called me mid laughing when we
started the recording.
Uh, it turns out he's from Raleigh, North Carolina,
which I think Colby Flood is from, uh, there.
So I've just introduced those two.
If you're from Raleigh, North Carolina, give him a shout out.
Uh, Colby was on the podcast a while ago, actually,
uh, Facebook ads a long time ago, but, um, yeah,
go listen to that episode.
It was great as well.
Now, before we get into it, let me do the usual newsletter.
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eCommerce Podcast.
net right now.
Let's talk about Will, the ecommerce wizard and co founder
of Belovix who's been helping brands crush it on Amazon and
Walmart marketplace for over.
A decade.
The digital marketing virtuoso has turned Belovix into a
powerhouse agency by mastering the art of marketplace
strategy and showing brands how to turn their online
presence into pure gold.
Yes, he has.
Well, welcome to the show, man.
Great to have you.
How are you doing today?
Doing great, man.
Living the dream.
And that is quite the intro.
Will Haire: Matter of fact, I think we can just
end the interview here.
Uh, I'll be signing off.
That was wonderful.
Matt Edmundson: Living the dream.
Yeah, I, we, um, my brother and I. I'm sure we're not the only
people on the planet to do this.
We have abbreviated it to LTD. So when I call my brother,
I'm like, how you doing, bro?
He's like LTD. Cause we just can't be bothered to say live in
Will Haire: the dream.
Live in the dream.
Yeah.
Very military phrase.
Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: A little bit.
And then also in the UK, LTD, um, means limited company.
So it's uh, it's it's also a sort of a legal entity,
but I I just boring.
I don't know why you've mentioned it We
should change that yeah
Will Haire: Yeah,
Matt Edmundson: absolutely, absolutely, so how come
you live in the dream man
Will Haire: I'm honestly truly blessed.
I, uh, I run a boutique agency.
We help brands, um, scale on marketplaces and I
get to work with a lot of entrepreneurs like, uh, like
myself, where we're kind of all over the place, but we're
passionate about one thing.
In my case, it's helping these brands, but these brands.
Solve problems and supplement.
They solve problems in beauty, electronic space,
pet space, and they're fun.
They're inventive.
Sometimes they're eccentric, but like interesting people
tend to be eccentric.
So with that being said, my days are never the same.
I get to have great conversations with people like
you met and share kind of what we've learned on the journey.
We don't have everything down that it was a
great introduction, but we're always learning.
And as you, as you know, being in the ecommerce
space, dude, things change.
Like crazy.
Amazon did not operate the same way it did last year
and with AI coming in like it's just changing so fast.
So for somebody like me who loves to chase the shiny object,
I haven't stopped running.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it is so true and I think The thing
that I've noticed is the people that stop learning,
who feel like they've got it, they're not the ones that
are around after a while.
Um, because it just, it does change so much, um,
the space in, in many ways.
Uh, there's always new things to think about, nuances.
And I think competition's an interesting one, isn't it?
You know, you, you, you, especially with
places like Amazon.
Um, and Walmart, which I know you, you specialize in, um,
it feels like, and, and we'll correct me if I'm wrong here,
but it, it kind of feels like Amazon is a lot more competitive
than it has ever been.
Yeah.
If you want to get on there and start selling
stuff, it's no longer a case of I can put it on.
I'll sell a million of these because there's a hundred
thousand other people importing the same products
or doing something and trying to get that space.
So, which is why it's great to have you on the show.
Cause I want to talk about this.
I want to talk about how we as entrepreneurs of ecommerce
businesses, probably doing some stuff on Amazon.
Um, how do we compete?
How do we, where do we start, um, in 2025?
Will Haire: Yeah, it's, uh, it's very competitive and
to your point, like gone are the days where you could just
list the product in a niche category and nobody's there.
Like the, it's just, it does.
It happens rarely.
So rarely, like we don't really see it as much as an
agency, but how do we compete?
It's omnichannel presence in all transparency.
Amazon is only a piece of the puzzle, but we know behavior
On social media behavior on your website, how you engage
influencers and affiliates, they all spill over at the end of the
day, Amazon has done a really good job of building a platform
that has consumer trust.
People go on there.
They're going to read the reviews.
If they can't find your product, it's kind of a red flag.
Like, Oh, is it, is it even safe to buy?
And even worse are the brands that, uh, just let their, their
affiliates run, run the show.
It's like, uh, you know, uh, the, I don't know, the
criminals running the asylum.
That's the wrong analogy, but.
Uh, that's what it is.
So, uh, it's competitive and how do you get ahead?
It's, it's marketing and brand building is a big part of it.
And I wish it all happened on Amazon, but it doesn't,
but Amazon is a piece.
There is some building that goes on, but it's
a pay to play platform.
So a lot of what we'll do and what we'll probably talk
about is, um, how advertising plays and how retail media has
changed over the last few years.
Matt Edmundson: And that's the big thing now, isn't it?
With Amazon, you've, you've got to pay to play.
And I think.
The thing that I've noticed, uh, I mean, just to come back
to something that you said, actually, and, and I run an
e com company, run several e com companies, as I've
mentioned, one of which, uh, we do, we do okay on Amazon.
I mean, we're not breaking any records.
Um, but the thing that I've noticed with Amazon is, um,
that famous phrase, a rising tide floats all boats, right?
Yeah.
So the more I sell on the website, the more I seem to
sell on Amazon, the more I sell on Amazon, the more I
seem to sell on the website.
The more I do stuff over here, do you mean it, it,
it, my fear was with Amazon, if I start on that platform,
I'm sending people who would have come to my website.
So I would have known who the customer was.
And then my margin, obviously on my own website is significantly
higher than Amazon.
Um, but that doesn't seem to have.
I mean, obviously if someone buys from Amazon, they're
obviously not buying from my website, but the people that
buy from Amazon, I don't know who they are, but I'm kind of
guessing they don't, don't, they wouldn't have known
about us anyway, you know?
And so you, you kind of create that sense of brand awareness.
I don't know if that's what you find, you know,
this sort of this rising tide floats all boats idea.
Will Haire: Absolutely.
It kind of hits into what I was talking before and what,
what my hypothesis, and I read this in, um, man, modern retail
published an article recently on it, um, and essentially
like, uh, consumers value, convenience, uh, not only is it
trusting, but it is convenient two day shipping, perhaps
some of the same day shipping, which is insane, like the
logistical network and Amazon build and the trust, like.
It's part of people are willing to pay extra to get
something in a day or two.
But yeah, the margins with all the fee hikes the last year,
I mean, it's, it's borderline criminal, uh, but you know,
it's the cost of operating and there's never, you know,
cannibalization of, of sales.
Sure.
It can happen to some degree.
Like it's really hard to get somebody to do a behavior,
like taking them from Facebook and moving them to Amazon.
You're just going to naturally.
Lose people as there's more steps in the process.
Um, but they, to your point, they will find their way
there, whether they're just checking it or seeing the
better shipping times or all these other, um, considerations
when they're, when they're on that purchasing journey.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's, it is definitely a different
place to, to what it was when it sort of first started out
with this sort of, you know, where you could sell stuff
on Amazon, but I'm intrigued.
You know, like you say, the fees have increased, the
costs of selling on Amazon are really quite high.
So we had a beauty business for the longest time, and
one of our best selling products on that website had
a 16 percent gross margin.
Right.
Okay.
So there was no way you would've been able to
sell that on Amazon?
Not on, no way.
Not on, so the, the products you sell on Amazon have to
have really high gross margins to be able to afford their
fees and how that works.
So what I've tended to notice is there then has
been a a, a slight move.
On the products on Amazon, and I don't know if I'm sure
Amazon are aware of this.
I'm sure they have plans for it, and I'm sure, um, it's maybe
me just going slightly nuts.
So the products that you find on Amazon more and more
tend to be products that have higher margins built into them.
So you get a lot of the, uh, the Chinese products on, you know,
sort of people buying stuff from China import and trying to
sell it at a reasonable price.
I'm not having an issue with that.
This is just what I've noticed, for example.
Um, is that me just going, Crazy or is that, do you
see that actually happening?
Will Haire: No, you're absolutely right.
Actually, we recently lost a supplement brand
for that same reason.
Uh, the woman manufactured herself, you know,
we were doing good.
She was a seven figure brand on Amazon, but her margins were
tight on all their products.
She, uh, was really conscious of her customer, didn't
want to raise prices.
And then Amazon has the fair pricing policy.
So she couldn't have higher prices on Amazon.
And not our website.
And so what we ended up doing is taking her products
and doing fulfilled by merchant, which helped cause
it cut her, her, uh, her fees in half, give or take.
Um, but at the end of the day, she ended up leaving us because
the margins couldn't support it.
So even on the, the service side, like
we're conscious of it.
If you don't have, you know, at least 50 percent margin, gross
margin on your products, like with agency fees, with Amazon's
fees, like it's probably not going to be a good fit.
And that's just kind of right now.
That's just the way it is.
I'm hoping that, um, there'll be some pushback, but I
also think to some degree, they're phasing out some
of the smaller businesses.
Um, and they're making it difficult for some of
these brands to come on.
So I think slowly Amazon's transitioning to more
for established brands.
Um, and that's just kind of the, the lay of
the land at the moment.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
And I, I'm intrigued how that works, you know, like,
um, it, it means that, like, for example, you take a TV.
Will Haire: Um,
Matt Edmundson: I know full well what the, I know what
margins are on TVs when they're sold in store and
they're not great, right?
These guys aren't, they're not making massive amounts of money.
So they can't then go and sell those on Amazon, but
the manufacturer can, right?
And so Amazon then goes and makes a deal with Samsung.
So right, put your TVs on, on here.
Um, and And they sort of start selling those TVs,
which, which I find, I find quite fascinating.
So that I think this is, this will be another shift, won't it?
Amazon will go more and more to the brand.
So if, if you are an ecommerce business selling other
people's products, I think.
More and more, you might find Amazon difficult if
you are selling your own manufactured product with
a high gross margin, then Amazon, I think, is still
quite an interesting place.
So we, like the lady that left, we have a supplement
brand, for example.
So I understand the margins and supplements.
Um, and I understand the niche that we operate in and actually
Amazon is good for that, you know, and, and, and at the
moment it still works, but I'm not holding my breath that
it will be like that forever.
Um, so in the meantime, um, I mean, all that caveat said, um.
I am on Amazon.
How do I kill it?
How do I kill it on Amazon?
Well, what do I do?
Will Haire: Yeah, so there's a lot and just to kind of, uh, put
a bow on what you just commented on, like we primarily work
with brands, uh, a reseller, um, you know, uh, business
model, like it does exist.
I, I'm friends with a Canadian company that like all they do.
Is buy and resell products.
I think it will still exist to some degree, um, like
commodity type products where like people don't
really care about the brand.
They just want to get nails super cheap or
something like that.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Will Haire: Um, so it's still exist.
Um, it's just getting more difficult.
And I do think there's other platforms that, you know,
Timu and Sheen outside of the political stuff that's
going on, uh, is great platform for cost, uh, low.
Quality, low price products, uh, and there's a market for it.
People are always going to want cheap to some degree.
Um, so there is shifting consumer behavior and
as a result, there'll be shifts in how sellers,
uh, reach their audiences.
Um, kind of jump into what you were saying.
So how do we scale on, on Amazon?
It's definitely marketing and advertising.
And I'll talk like, um, at Bellavix, we use like
a bottom up approach.
So, um, everybody knows the, the user intent funnel.
So, you know, when we start advertising with the brand, you
know, we do want to make sure we occupy, we defend listings and
that we have a brand presence for advertising and it'll vary.
Some companies don't want to invest them much.
So they might be like, Hey, 10%, don't spend more than 10%.
Or I only want to invest when it's a 10 ROAS on branded.
I don't want to pay for customers that are already
customers and fine.
That makes sense.
And then a lot of what we'll focus on until a
brand's about a hundred thousand dollars a month.
Is getting people in consideration.
So remarketing using display advertising, uh, conquesting
going after competitors, uh, having a presence for
relevant search terms and kind of building that up.
And that's kind of the bottom of pro up.
And then when we get to a point where you got about a
hundred K a month in sales, turning on something like
programmatic advertising, uh, tends to be effective
and gives us the ability on Amazon to build audiences.
A lot of your, uh, listeners may be rolling their eyes.
I've tried it.
It didn't work depends how you use it.
Um, so a lot of times when we get started, we'll build
remarketing funnels and we'll go pretty heavy, um,
after competitors and just see what that row as is.
We also do some streaming TV, but that is a top of the funnel
and kind of a longer play before you actually see any type of
brand lift and Amazon will pull some brand lift reports.
I know some of our software like tech metrics, we'll
be able to kind of get.
That information too.
Um, so it really depends the size of the brand and
kind of what your goals are.
And what we found, and we don't do this, we work with agencies
that assist, um, but you may get a better return as opposed to
turning on DSP, doing meta ads, uh, working with influencers
tends to work really well.
We do a little bit of affiliate marketing with Levante and
stacked influence, and those tend to be pretty good if
we drive them to Amazon.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Will Haire: Indirectly, we get sales velocity.
We'll get more reviews when people buy them.
They tend to be in a better mood than Vine
program buyers because they generally get free products.
Um, and they'll share user generated content.
And user generated content in advertising happens
to work really well.
We actually have a case study that's being published on the
site now that shows that user generated content has better
conversion rates than something that's like traditionally.
Uh, built using a studio and I'm personally convinced
it's cause we're all on Instagram and tech talk.
And we just become accustomed to like discovering
products this way.
So it's very natural and.
Native, uh, to use advertising terms.
Matt Edmundson: Uh, well, jeez, there's a lot there, but
Will Haire: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Let's, um, let, for those that might
not know, let's define a few terms if we can.
What is programmatic advertising?
Will Haire: Yeah, programmatic is, uh, on Amazon demand side
platform, but pretty much just display advertising.
It's our ability to target customers on and off the
platform based on intent, contextual behavior, or how
they engage products, uh, and the Amazon platform.
Matt Edmundson: Okay, and you wouldn't do
programmatic advertising for someone that turns over
less than 100k a month?
Will Haire: Yeah, I mean, uh, it varies based on category,
but between 70 to 100k is generally where we turn it on.
Uh, we should be able to use pay per click and some of
these off Amazon methodologies will get you there.
In terms of brand building, DSP is not a ROAS driving
machine, which is why what you mean by DSP, uh, demand,
uh, programmatic advertising.
So it's referred to as Amazon DSP.
Um, so forgive me using all these acronyms.
I'm brainwashed by the Amazon machine.
Matt Edmundson: That's fair play.
I just, I'm aware that we ecommerce probably more than any
other industry I've come across uses three letter acronyms.
And so I feel like.
It's my quest in life just to get people to qualify
what they mean because what I, what I understand by
various things and what other people understand by various
things can be very different.
Um, so if I, let's, let's deal with the smaller brands
first and let's talk about strategies for them then.
So I'm turning over, I don't know, 10, 20, 30, 40
grand a month on, on Amazon.
I'm a sort of a smaller chap for better expression.
What sort of strategies then should I be focusing on?
So I, I need to maybe look at.
You talked about using meta, for example, and
user generated content to drive traffic to Amazon.
And this, again, you used a phrase sales velocity,
which I know is a very important thing on Amazon.
But talk about that and how that might work a little bit in
more detail, if you don't mind.
Will Haire: Yeah.
So typically when we see brands driving off Amazon
traffic, we would use something like Amazon attribution.
I think they changed the name, but I'm going to go with
attribution because that's how I refer to it, but it's
our ability to use these URLs so we could track behavior.
And we would want every unique campaign to have a unique URL
so we can measure the impact.
Like the toughest thing about Amazon is that
it's, it's a black box.
So therefore.
You know, if I'm driving traffic into this black box, I may not
know which campaigns perform.
It also doesn't communicate back to Meta, to Google, to
really any of these platforms.
So first things first is you're going to want an
infrastructure in place where you can get some measurements.
That can, you can feed to your, your advertising
team, whoever that is.
So they know these campaigns are working.
These attributes are working.
And then on Amazon, I don't like using skag
single keyword ad groups.
Um, and I'm talking more Google than meta right now.
Uh, but in the instance where we're driving traffic to, uh,
Amazon, I am a big proponent of this cause I do believe that it
gives us better insights into what's working and what's not.
I've.
Heard of brands using like Zon Guru, I think, and
other software, um, that somehow patches it together.
I'm, um, uh, a little hesitant to believe how accurate that is.
Um, so for the most part, I'd rather use Amazon
attribution and measure it.
And generally the conversion rate is not going to be, um,
as great as it is advertising directly on the platform.
Matt Edmundson: So the.
I guess the key question that someone's going to have
is, why would I, if I have my Google ads budget, um, a
thousand pounds or thousand bucks this month, whatever it
is, why would I use that to send traffic to Amazon versus
sending traffic to my website?
Will Haire: So Amazon has something called the
halo effect, and this is a really good question.
I get this all the time when I talk to brands.
Um, so when I mentioned, uh, earlier, their sales velocity
is like the number one KPI.
So if you could demonstrate to Amazon that this product sells
and that's done through sales per month or a given period of
time, then you'll technically rank better organically.
And we have some older case studies where we prove this
out using Google ads and stuff.
And the lift will vary, um, depending on the
category and the brand.
Um, and that is the main reason why it's like, if I know.
For this specific root keyword.
That's very relevant to my product.
Um, that the opportunity is like 10 million a month,
and I am doing a thousand dollars on that product.
Then I know that there's room for me.
So we may not want to do it all the time.
There is a point of diminishing returns, but to get the gears
going to kind of show Amazon that there is opportunity there,
that's the reason to do it.
And all transparency, I don't recommend driving
the entire budget.
Uh, I like to do like 10 to 20 percent of your
budget to just go over.
And I like to start with keyword queries that have Amazon in it.
So in your case, you sold the supplement.
So if it's a whey protein, people will go to Google and
be like, whey protein, Amazon, because we're lazy and why not?
And so like those are low hanging fruit that the intent
is already to buy it on Amazon.
So putting some ad dollars behind that makes sense.
I wouldn't do any branded.
I think at the end of the day, the value is
acquiring new customers.
So if I was building keywords or audiences that wasn't
remarketing, uh, I would direct those, um, those shoppers
towards my Amazon store.
And I like driving to the storefront versus the
product detail page because the storefront doesn't have
ads from your competitors.
You could showcase your unique selling proposition and
get a look and feel for the brand and build that trust.
As opposed when you drive to a product detail page,
uh, like myself, it's like, Oh, this is great.
Ooh, this is better.
Click, click, click, click.
Before you know, you paid to drive traffic to somebody else's
Matt Edmundson: store.
That's part of the problem, I suppose, with Amazon, isn't it?
So sorry, just a bit, just to clarify, if I'm running ads, I
liked your whey protein Amazon.
That makes a lot of sense.
Um, and I, I, I, so I, I'm a whey protein company.
They've not put in strawberry, they've not put in the size.
It's just sort of a general thing.
You're going to send them to the storefront, my whey
protein storefront in effect, um, rather than a specific
whey protein product.
Yep.
Um, if they put in the search a, a specific product, do
you still send them to the storefront page or do you send
them to that specific product?
Will Haire: I would continue driving to the storefront
just because I'm very conscious of other people,
uh, conquesting on us.
Cause like it's a common advertising tactic and
brands love when you steal audience from bigger brands.
So generally, cause your storefront page should
showcase all the products.
If it's done right, they should be able to add it to cart.
So they'll see the product that they're actually looking for.
And there's not really an act.
I mean, technically, yes, there's an extra step.
Click to add to cart, but, um, they're going to do
the same thing if you drive them to that Amazon listing.
So I would recommend just driving to the storefront.
Matt Edmundson: And so along, so alongside this,
are you doing ads on Amazon or are you just using metal
Google to drive traffic?
Will Haire: Yeah.
I mean, when we start with the brand, we primarily
start with pay per click.
Um, and we'll do the bottom, you know, automatic campaigns
like everyone else for keyword harvesting, and then kind of.
Once we get some data, we'll launch some manual campaigns.
We also do keyword research.
So we'll, you know, if it's a new to market product,
we'll, we'll start with smaller ad groups to kind
of train the algorithm.
If it's a product that's been around, then we're just
going to optimize, launch some additional campaigns.
But PPC is definitely where to start.
And if we want to talk about like low costs, cause
you mentioned like if this brand's under 20 to 30, 000,
let's just assume that they don't have great reviews.
You know, they may have great rating, but the quantity.
Yeah, those reviews may not be competitive.
Like whey protein is, uh, is competitive, you know, there's,
there's listings with thousands of, cause whey proteins
been around for a while.
Um, so we're big fans of like brand tailored promotions,
which is our ability to offer discounts to audiences, uh,
with specific intent models.
So like, uh, somebody who's.
Uh, purchased from you in the last year or somebody
who's high risk of leaving.
Cause they haven't, they purchased in the past, but
haven't purchased lately.
Um, we could conquest abandoned cart, which is
like low hanging fruit.
These are all audiences and you could pepper them with as
little, I believe as little as a 5 percent discount,
um, but these are people that have shown intent.
Uh, another great program that's cost effective is
Amazon's creator connections.
It's a relatively new program and.
It should be well, if it hasn't already, it is being
rolled out according to our Amazon resources to the
entire Amazon ecosystem,
Matt Edmundson: right?
Will Haire: It's your ability to it's your ability to
work with Amazon associates.
And these are, uh, affiliates influencers, if you will,
who will buy your product for some type of commission, you
don't even have to offer a sample and they'll promote it
on their LinkedIn or their, excuse me, on their social
media, wherever that is.
But we've gotten brands into, uh, articles, uh,
which help with SEO.
Um, you know, top 10 supplements of 2025, uh, as
well as some micro influencers that have done really well.
And they'll end up putting that on their storefront.
So then you start getting presence in other places
for customers to discover.
Um, that tends to be pretty effective.
So those are two low hanging fruit that, you know,
come to mind off the bat that can drive sales and
their performance based.
Matt Edmundson: So the, sorry, the, the name of the new feature
on Amazon, uh, again, was.
Will Haire: Uh, creator connections,
Matt Edmundson: creator connections.
Yeah.
So, um, for the longest time, uh, there's been
Amazon associates, right?
Um, is that all right?
Or you just dropped your coat?
Okay.
I just dropped my cup.
Will Haire: I'm sorry.
I didn't hear what you said.
I apologize.
Matt Edmundson: No, no problem.
So for the longest time on Amazon, we've had like, um,
We've had the affiliate thing, haven't we, Amazon Associates?
I have an Amazon Associate link, which I set up,
I don't know, 1973.
I don't think I've ever used it, but I think
there's something there.
Um,
with this new creator connections, are they
sort of revamping?
Amazon associates a little bit of they kind of gone.
This is a little bit outdated.
We need to update it here.
Will Haire: Yeah.
So the way it works, it's a dashboard inside of Amazon
that created connections.
You'll jump into it and essentially create
an influencer brief.
Like, Hey, you know, this is the product.
This is about it.
We're offering a 30, 20, 30 percent discount on all sales.
Um, they'll opt in, um, you'll get, it's a low volume
game, but you'll get these associates, they will purchase
the product through Amazon and they will create that
content, you'll have access to the content, you can use it
for your marketing purposes.
So it's very streamlined and I find that it works
better than, you know, like a Levanta, an Archer,
Phil, like some of these.
Platforms that already exist.
The caveat is, is like, you really don't have control
over who, who applies and how they get the product.
And also the volume is, is low.
Um, the ROAS is great.
You know, a ROAS is like 10 all the time, but like,
you know, in a given month for a brand that has some
popularity, you know, maybe 60 to 70, uh, of these affiliates
will actually participate.
Which is low.
And then, you know, some of them will buy the
product, but never post.
And all the issues that come when you're working with
some of these influencers.
Uh, but it's all contained on Amazon.
You just set it up and it runs itself.
And what we love about it, as long as the brands
don't have any restrictions with who they work with.
Um, what's nice is that it it's performance based.
So these people don't get paid unless they're moving products.
Yeah.
Um, so that's kind of the benefit.
Matt Edmundson: It's interesting that they're
revamping then the associates side of things, isn't it?
And, and actually affiliate marketing becomes a bit
more interesting rather than just taking whatever
it was, like one, 2 percent of the sales price.
Yeah.
Um, you can actually now go 10, 20, 30%, whatever the
brand believes on that product.
Yeah.
Um, which again, makes it a bit more interesting.
And I, I, I quite like that.
I wonder how many.
YouTubers out there that have done content on, you know, I
don't know, I, I'm just looking around my desk here, uh, the
Logitech, uh, MX master three mouse, um, and they go sign
up to this program and then just put that link in on their
YouTube or if you, is it a case of you have actually got to
buy the product for it to work?
Will Haire: Uh, they got the influencer has to buy
the product for it to work.
So, you know, you can give them samples and yeah, like if you
do samples, you get more volume.
Do the brands that we work with because the
quality of the influencer is all over the place.
Generally, we don't give away samples.
We'd rather be more aggressive on their commission, and
that's worked pretty well.
We start at 20%, but we've had brands go up to 50%, and
the higher that commission, the more volume we can get.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, but, you know,
Matt Edmundson: it's just a
Will Haire: crapshoot.
Matt Edmundson: That's really interesting.
That's really interesting.
So that's then helpful for some of the smaller brands.
What are some of the tactics you've found for the guys
doing over 100 grand a month?
Will Haire: Love, I love programmatic.
So, uh, that's the, uh, the DSP, the display
advertising, the type of audience to be skin build.
So like cut out anything that might be like,
um, medical related.
So like we've worked with brands that help people
with diabetes and stuff like that, like a pregnancy.
We have HIPAA laws here.
So like targeting becomes very difficult.
And so we would recommend using like a connected TV, um,
mountains, a really good one, or another third party platform
to help those brands scale.
But for your typical brand that sells supplement or beauty
products, uh, it's great because we're able to build audiences.
So like.
What we have found is that a lot of people on Amazon will
just focus on like the bottom of the funnel, those, you know,
conquesting product searches and their brand and what happens
over time is like, to your point, competition, more people
come in, you know, everybody has an anti aging product
if they're selling beauty.
Um, so it's like, how do you differentiate yourself?
And how you do that effectively is by leveraging, uh,
programmatic and building these audiences that are a little
higher up in the funnel that are related to you by lifestyle.
They're related to you by their demographic, their shopping
behavior, their hobbies and interests and a great way
to get started, which a lot of people neglect is like.
You know, I don't know a website that doesn't have
Google analytics tied to it.
And Google analytics, if you go on the backend, they share this
information about the website audience, you can essentially
take that and use that to get started if you work with an
agency in the, um, advertising.
Uh, partner network, um, like Bellavix is, uh, we get
access to Amazon resources and they can pull information
and help us build, uh, some of these initial audiences.
And 1 of my favorite audiences that they're able to build,
it's called an overlap report.
And so they'll, they'll take the ASIN in question that
you're researching, and then they get a bunch of information
based on the current audience that goes there and they build
this report and the overlap of that report are like the
common interest that these.
Uh, shoppers have, and we turn those in the audiences and
surprisingly, we get pretty good engagement and we look
for a lift in sales over time.
So like, if you're going to start DSP.
You know, you want to run it at least for six months and
you want to focus like, you don't have to spend like, so
a brand that's conservative and starting with programmatic
advertising, 10 percent of your budget is enough for us
to at least do the remarketing.
Uh, typically what we recommend is 80, 20, 20
percent of your budget going to this and allowing us to.
Test some of these different audiences, but
the KPIs are different.
We're looking for impressions, product, detail,
views, uh, add to cart.
So it's like, it's, it's softer metrics, but we know
that over time and, you know, Amazon has the Kantar report,
uh, Ogilvy for any advertisers who, uh, follow that, like we
know exposure is how you get.
People to buy your product.
And so this exposure allows us to kind of
build those audiences.
And over time you will see a sales lift.
That's how we've taken brands from that a hundred
thousand dollars a month to three, 400, 000 a month.
Um, so it does work effectively and some categories do
really well and others don't.
So it's, um, you know, it's something that needs to be
measured and reacted on.
It's not something you just turn on and forget about.
There are some categories that it just.
It might not make sense.
Um, we've worked with some beauty brands that we've
tried to do this and we just, we never really saw the lift
we were looking for after about a year of doing this.
And so we, we stopped, they, they ended up using meta and
Google and, and it worked out well, and we still saw
sales increase, and then we just focused on what we can
do on the AMS side with PPC advertising, and there are
some brands that, you know, we're working with a supplement
brand now in the, the green fruits and green space that.
Uh, we shouldn't see this, but we see a 7 ROAS on
programmatic and we're mid, mid to bottom of the funnel.
And it's like, what's different about those products?
I mean, yeah, there's nuances that are different, but like
7, I, I can't explain it.
Matt Edmundson: But you enjoy it while it lasts.
Yeah, exactly.
And nothing
Will Haire: gold can stay.
Yeah, exactly.
Matt Edmundson: Absolutely.
I'm curious, why don't you do programmatic advertising
for companies that are saying doing 10, 000 a month?
Is it a budgetary issue or is it an access issue?
It's always
Will Haire: budgetary.
Yeah.
So like we've worked with some private equity brands
that have the budget and they also understand full funnel
marketing and advertising and they'll sign off on it.
They get it.
They're like, yeah, let's do commercials.
We want to get, we want to build our audiences.
But most of the time, the brands that come to me that
are doing 10 to 20, 000, they're, they're smaller.
A lot of times I'm working directly with the owner.
Um, and they're just, they're, they're closer to the money.
So therefore they're a lot more conscious of how it's spent and
they want to see that row as, and, and I get it, you know,
early on, it makes sense, you want every dollar to count and
therefore, when I talk about.
Mid and upper funnel.
And I share all these KPIs.
They're like, well, I spent a thousand dollars of my 3,
000 budget and I didn't see a sales lift in the first month.
So like in those situations, it's just.
It's not worth it.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Slightly untenable.
No.
Fair play.
What's, um, what's one thing about Amazon we should all
know heading into 2025 that maybe we don't know right now?
Will Haire: Yeah.
Maybe most
Matt Edmundson: people don't know.
Will Haire: Yeah.
AI is definitely taking over.
So as of now, Amazon updated the title restrictions and they're
cracking down on longer titles.
So, uh, as of January 21st, uh, they have taken everybody's
titles and they cut them on their own using AI.
What we have found with AI is that, oh man, it's painful.
Uh, when they rolled this out last year, they, uh, they
changed some of our titles and we didn't turn it off.
And they ended up getting some of our listings suspended with.
The titles that their AI recommended.
So what I'm saying is like a brace AI, it's
not changing anything.
Be conscious of your listing quality for sure.
Um, but understand that, um, it's, it's not going anywhere.
It's, you know, I feel bad for companies like get Tita,
the reimbursement software where like Amazon is baking
a lot of those features in, and I know they have
a partnership with the.
With companies like that.
So it's interesting to see what AI is going to be taken over.
Uh, and where the human part of this is like, it's always
going to be in the brand and it's always going to be in the
creative to some degree, but you know, where is it heading
in terms of advertising?
You know, are we going to get a version of G max on Amazon where
it's minimum human interaction?
You just set the ROAS and let it, let it do
its machine learning.
Um, so it's.
We're on the brink of something, uh, monumental and it'll
change how, you know, we as agencies, but also as sellers.
Engage with with marketplaces and how we operate on them.
Matt Edmundson: That's really interesting.
So watch this space.
Uh, watch this space.
Well, listen, I am my question for you.
Well, no, actually it's that time where I remember
your question for me.
What's your question for me, which I'm going to
answer on social media.
What is it?
Will Haire: I want to know what's your most memorable
experience from living in Salisbury, North Carolina.
You shared a little bit about yourself and, uh,
North Carolina is now home.
So I would love to know what, what you remember most and
what you like most about North Carolina, because
this is where I call home and I really enjoy it here.
Matt Edmundson: Well, I will, I love North Carolina.
It's like my second home.
And, um, yeah, for those of you don't know, I used to live
in North Carolina for a little while, hence I have a slight.
When I say Carolina, I can't say Carolina like a British person.
It's Carolina.
And I don't know why it's very odd.
It's very, very odd.
Uh, so I will of course answer that question
over on social media.
Come follow me on LinkedIn at Matt Edmundson and you will find
me answering that question at some point, what I love most.
About North Carolina and I think everybody should go to
North Carolina at least once in their life And whilst i'm
not answering the question, you should also try cheer
wine while you're there.
Just want to put that
Will Haire: out
Matt Edmundson: Brilliant well listen had it's been
great talking to you man.
Thanks for coming on and sharing the um the insights I I see
that the sun is is coming out where you are because it's
shining into the lens a little bit You've got this angelic
glow going on um So if people want to reach out to you, if
they want to connect with you, the angel of Amazon, uh, how
do they, how do they do that?
Will Haire: Yeah.
Check me out on LinkedIn.
Will like, uh, Will Haire like on your head with an
E. Uh, I put out stuff every day to try to help sellers.
We're really in tune to the news and what goes on.
So follow me there and then check out our website if you're
interested, if you need support or need help, you know, we're
passionate, we're not a huge agency, but we like, um, we
like working with brands that have interesting challenges
and are, uh, our mission based.
So you can check us out at bellavix.com and Matt,
this was a lot of fun.
It was a really great conversation and great
getting to know you.
So thank you for having me on your show.
Matt Edmundson: No, it's been great, man.
Great.
If you, here's another three letter acronym.
Well, uh, what's your ICP, your ideal client profile?
Who do you work best with?
Will Haire: Go on.
We work with, uh, brands, uh, brands that own their trademark,
uh, and generally are doing at least a million dollars in
revenue because generally we can, they have a little bit
of an audience and they may be struggling on Amazon, so
we could help you guys get to that three, four, 5 million
range in a couple of years.
Matt Edmundson: Fantastic.
We will of course link to Will's information in the
show notes, which just, if you're on an app, podcast app,
you don't even need to tell you to scroll down, they'll
be there or come on by the website, ecommercepodcast.net.
And of course, if you signed up to the newsletter.
It'll be in your inbox.
Just the way it works.
So, uh, that's, um, that's great.
Well, listen, man, thanks for coming on.
Absolutely loved it.
Let me do this.
Huge round of applause for Will.
Yes, there we go.
So there we go.
That's enough applause.
Don't want your head to get too big.
Uh, what a great conversation.
Uh, now be sure to follow the eCommerce Podcast, wherever
you get your podcasts from, because we've got some more
great conversations lined up.
And I genuinely don't want you to miss any of them.
Uh, and in case no one has told you yet today,
let me be the first.
You are awesome.
Yes, you are created.
Awesome.
It's just a burden.
You have to bear.
Will has to bear it.
I've got to bear it.
You've got to bear it as well.
Now that eCommerce Podcast is produced by
the wonderful Podjunction.
com.
Uh, you can find our entire archive of episodes on
your favorite podcast app.
I think music was written by the magnificent.
Josh Edmundson.
And as I mentioned, if you'd like to read the transcript
or show notes, simply head over to the website,
ecommercepodcast.net.
But that's it from me.
That's it from Will.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.
I'll see you next time.
Bye for now.