Welcome to, but for Real, a variety show podcast co-hosted by two therapists

who also happened to be loud mouth.

I'm Valerie, your resident elder, millennial child free cat lady,

and I'm Emerson, your resident,

chronically online Gen Z brat.

And on the show we'll serve up a new episode every other week that will take

you on a wild ride through the cultural zeitgeist, mental health and beyond.

You'll definitely laugh and TBH sometimes maybe cry a little because

this is a silly and serious show.

Buckle up my friends, and let's get into today's episode.

Hi.

Hello.

We're back.

We are.

I'm so glad to be here.

I know we just had a morning Kiki with the team, you know?

Yes.

Love our monthly team meeting.

So fun.

So

fun.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

So intro question for today.

To kick us off, if you could tell your 14-year-old self, specifically

something you now know about bodies or body image, what would you say to her?

Well, it's funny that you chose that age.

Yeah.

That bitch has some issues, honey.

I'll say, why is being 14?

The trenches, oh my God.

Like worse than almost anything because 16, you know?

Dang.

So I would say, and of course, you know, she wouldn't listen.

Oh sure.

But I would say something to the effect of like.

There are so many more important things about you.

Yes.

Like, I know this feels so important right now.

Yeah.

But it's really not.

It's not that deep.

It's

not that deep.

Mm. What about you?

I feel like mine is kind of along the same lines and or just beginning

to like, again, she wouldn't listen.

Mm-hmm.

But just to kind of start like talking about like worth.

Mm-hmm.

Like

I really would want for her to know that like the worthiness

is not tied to how you look.

Mm.

It's like beyond, it's so much deeper.

Like the soul part of you, like your purpose, the passionate

part, like the things that people.

Love about you have nothing to do with what you look like.

Mm.

And like for a reason.

Right.

You know?

Yeah.

The worthiness is not all tied into just how you look.

Yeah.

And I fear it's a lifelong lesson.

Oh my God.

26-year-old me is also still not listening.

Right.

Most of our time, so, oh my gosh.

Now it's time for our first segment, tea and Crumpets, where we tell you what

we can't stop talking about this week.

So what is your tea this week, bitch?

It's

Sabrina Bitch Bitch.

It's Sabrina Carpenter's new album Man's best friend.

I need to listen.

Friends.

Yeah.

Okay.

Now listen, my first listen through, I also was having a bad

day, so I was just like, mm-hmm.

But much like Miss Sabrina Carpenter Earworm.

Okay.

So I was like, oh.

And so now every day I'm like.

Do you want the house tour?

Like, I'm just like going through it.

So like, kind of a lot of like pop culture Hot takes around this album

because the album cover is her, like on her hands and knees, like being

like pulled by her hair and everyone was like, this is anti-feminist.

Interesting.

And then the other people are like, this is K Honey yeahinteresting.

So the album, much like her other stuff is very kind of, it's just winding her.

Um, you know, like relationships with men and some of the like

ignoring like red si, like red flags, Uhhuh, um, and just like how she's

showing up in relationship with men.

And I just think it's tea, so.

Mm-hmm.

Listen to House Tour.

Okay.

House tour.

It's,

I'll put it on the list.

Good.

Okay.

Okay.

What's your date?

Oh my God.

I forgot to put one on here.

And then I, and then I just thought of it.

What was it?

It was, I am reading.

This book called, and I may get the sum of the title.

I think it's the Practice of Groundedness.

Okay.

It's Brad Stohlberg.

And it's one of those like, I mean, self-help, but also it's like deeply

rooted in both like the, you know, current science around wellbeing.

Okay.

And also ancient wisdom traditions, which I really appreciate.

Um, but it is, you know, self helpy and it's one of those where you're like, oh my

God, did they write this literally for me?

And I'm highlighting every paragraph.

And it's, I mean, it's kind of similar to what I might end up exploring, sort

of something in the neighborhood for my dissertation, but like for people

who are pretty ambitious and driven, like how do you honor that without

driving yourself into the ground?

Mm. Right.

Um, so I'm really excited.

I feel like I need that message really deeply right now.

Yeah.

I'm just excited to read the rest of the book and he is a amazing Instagram.

Follow Brad Stohlberg.

Okay, check him out.

Hmm

hmm.

Now it's time for step into my office where you get advice from your

favorite professionally qualified, personally peculiar therapist.

Dear M and Val, I've struggled with body image for as long as I can remember.

Growing up in the nineties, diet culture has been ingrained in my system.

My mom was always on Weight Watchers and my friends and I swapped slim

fast shakes like they were snacks.

Now in my thirties, I thought I'd be past all of that, but I still catch myself

obsessing over calories, comparing my body to others online and feeling guilty

when I eat something in quotes, unhealthy.

I don't know if when I'm dealing with counts as an eating disorder

or just lifelong body shame.

It feels exhausting either way.

How do I start untangling what's quote normal in our culture

versus what's actually disordered?

And is there really hope for someone who feels like they've been stuck

in this cycle since middle school?

Sincerely, in a toxic situationship with MyFitnessPal.

Oh man.

Woo.

The MyFitnessPal

right upstairs.

Yeah.

Of like logging, I mean, and, and yeah.

The days of where you had to just log it in right down.

Yeah.

The SlimFast too.

I was like, whew.

'cause when I was like Refeeding as a teenager mm-hmm.

There wasn't a lot of options.

There was probably Ensure Sure.

But like, that was kind of just for old people.

Yes.

Where I came from, there was no eating disorder treatment or anything.

So, uh, the deal that I struck with my dietician was that I would eat a

breakfast of a Luna Bar and a Slim Fast every day, which was like a fuck

ton of calories for me at that time.

Sure.

But it like weird breakfast, Luna Bar, a Luna Bar and a Slim Fast every day.

I can still taste it.

Ugh.

Um, but yeah, man, it's, I think.

This is a great example of how there's actually as horrible as it is to sort of

like hit a really dysfunctional bottom.

Mm-hmm.

And a full blown eating disorder.

If you don't hit that, you get to sort of get to stay stuck in this like,

low level disordered eating, obsessive place, just kind of indefinitely

unless you ever choose to work on it.

Right?

Mm-hmm.

So it sounds like that's kind of where the listener is of like, okay,

maybe it never got fullblown, right.

But it's, you know, uh, Jenny Schafer co-wrote the book almost anorexic.

Like, there's a lot of like more conversations these days

around disordered eating and sort of quote unquote subclinical.

Stuff.

Stuff.

Mm-hmm.

And, and it's like you don't have to accept that as your normal, so.

Mm-hmm.

There's a lot of strategies that we're gonna talk about later in this episode

that I think would be applicable here.

Yes.

But I'm curious, like what comes up for you hearing

this?

Well, and I think even just the first thing I focused on was, you know, the

nineties component, the diet culture.

And so you, you know, notoriously, I'm a 99 baby, but my mom, yo-yo diet Yeah.

Weight Watchers, Atkins, like always doing something.

And, um, you know, that, that, and, and not in a way of like, I blame my mom,

I don't blame my mom at all, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Just like the culture that she grew up in.

Also, um, of that time where even just like reading Weight Watchers, I was like,

you know, like, it just like has like visceral response for me because again,

like, not that everything is always so parsed out and black and white, but, um.

Like we said, the stuff that we'll talk about later and those like cultural

moments, those generational things mm-hmm.

That are really poignant here.

Um, no wonder it's still affecting you.

Right?

Yeah.

And like also if we flip that on its head now to 2025 of like, uh, some

of the normalization, even more so of disordered eating on social media mm-hmm.

Uh, which we'll get to, you know, but, um, that low grade simmer of

this being something across your whole life is so intensely you're not alone.

Right.

In that I feel like a lot of women that I know.

Uh, same thing.

Yeah.

Where it's just this thing that's always been there.

And so again, like parsing out really eating disorder or just the

body shame.

Right.

And even though it is like normalized in the sense of like, that's so typical.

It's almost more Right.

Common than not.

Yeah.

Um, again, listener, like it doesn't have to be where you stay.

No.

There are pathways through 'cause if mm-hmm.

Yeah.

If people can recover from, from full blown eating disorders, there can

also be recovery and healing from this kind of lower grade disordered eating.

It is very possible to reclaim your head space.

'cause that can be one of the like most miserable parts of it, right?

Oh sure is.

Even if you're not dealing with a lot of physiological symptoms necessarily.

Um, if it's occupying that much of your head space mm-hmm.

You don't have to live that way.

No.

Yeah.

Okay.

Take care, listener.

And listen, non, you know, there's more stuff to come.

Yes.

And now it's time for the DSM.

In our DSM, all varieties of dysfunction, spiraling, and meltdowns are welcome.

In this segment, we break down complicated concepts and common misconceptions

about mental health wellbeing, and tell you what we really think.

Of course, you peeped from the title and so far this week we're explaining

and kind of exploring eating disorders, cultural generational implications

of disordered eating and kind of parsing out what that means versus

eating disorders and just body image concerns kind of across the generations.

So I wanted to open us up, of course, with eating disorder 1 0 1, more

of the like psychological clinical component of this topic today.

And so in the way that we define eating disorders.

Serious mental health conditions characterized by persistent

disturbances in eating behaviors and related thoughts and emotions.

So this isn't quote just about food.

Um, it's often about control, shame, self-worth, um,

coping, all of those things.

And so I wanted to throw down like some relevant criteria and kind of, um, of

course this is not the whole picture.

Mm-hmm.

This is just a bit of a blurb from the DSM five, um, of what

is considered eating disorders.

So we have anorexia nervosa, so this is restriction of energy intake.

So we're looking at, um, low body weight concerns or intense

fear of gaining weight, and a large disturbance in body image.

So how you view yourself versus to what your body actually looks like.

The discrepancy.

Um, bulimia nervosa.

So this is recurrent, um, binge eating.

So.

Eating large amounts of food, um, with just this kind of imbalance or

sense of lack of control, not being able to stop compensatory behavior.

So vomiting or using laxatives, um, excessive exercise.

So for bulimia, um, it must occur once a week for three months,

which even that I was like, okay, having that clip there, right?

Um, binge eating disorder, BED, recurrent binge eating

without compensatory behaviors.

So this is associated with distress.

Um, eating a rapidly eating until you are uncomfortably full, eating when not

hungry, or, um, hiding or eating secret eating shame, secretive, things like that.

So, um, other specified feeding or eating disorder offed, um,

symptoms that are causing distress but they don't meet full criteria.

And this is actually really common.

And when people.

Um, are presenting to therapy and things like that.

So that diagnosis, I suppose, um, shows up a lot.

And then our I, which I feel like really didn't know a lot about.

Mm-hmm.

And now it's becoming, um, our, I became further on my radar the further

I delve into like, um, clinical stuff with neurodivergent, right.

Individuals in particular.

So our, I, um, avoidance slash restrictive food intake disorder.

So this is limiting food intake due to sensory issues or concerns.

Um, fear of consequences such as choking or your food getting stuck, um, or kind of

just this like lack of interest in eating.

And AFI per se isn't necessarily about the controlling of body image.

It's really focused on those sensory.

Sensitivities and challenges.

Um, yeah.

So yeah.

Any additions to any of those?

Yeah, I mean, I would say

there's

been,

you know, a lot of controversy over the years with some

of the diagnostic criteria.

Like for instance Yes.

With anorexia around like, Ooh, does the person have to be

below 85% of their sick enough?

Right.

Yeah, exactly.

Um, which there's a literal book called Sick Enough.

Yes.

'cause you know, a lot of times people will be struggling very significantly

and then still feel like they are not quote unquote sick enough to get help.

And so that's why we're saying like, even to like our, the listener who

wrote in that, um, there is no such thing as having to be sick enough

to, to get help and to want to heal your relationship with food and body.

Um, but yeah.

So it is very possible that someone can be anorexic and be a, a higher body weight.

Yes.

Right.

And if they're losing weight rapidly, they could be losing hair, they could

be having severe health issues mm-hmm.

Um, that are attributed to that.

And then, you know, no one would know.

Yeah.

Right.

Because people just don't assume that someone in a larger body would be

restricting or starving themselves.

So, um, that's really important.

And then also just the insurance.

I mean, that's the whole thing of like our frenemy, the dsm and like

the problem with, you know, how rigid these boxes of diagnoses are and how

insurance takes full advantage of that.

And for instance, like they might be more likely to cover someone with

anorexia or bulimia than someone who's given an OS fed diagnosis.

Sure.

Right.

So it's just, it's stupid.

Um, but it is the world that we live in.

Yeah.

So.

Uh, we try to, you know, get people the care that they need and, um, there are

a lot of, you know, really wonderful treatment center options of different

levels of care all across the country.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, some internationally too.

Um, so some stats that we wanted to throw out, about 9% of the population

in the US will experience an eating disorder sometime in their lifetime.

And that's like a full blown eating disorder that comes from, from Nita.

And I know people have feelings about Nita and I'm not gonna get

into that whole, um, tangent, but I'm sure that maintenance phase probably

has an episode about that I love.

Yeah, that's a great podcast that covers a lot of these issues in depth.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and we have known for a long time that eating disorders are among the highest

mortality rate of any mental illness, second only to opioid use disorder and.

I would say that, um, even sometimes is under-reported in terms of, say for

instance, if someone dies of a heart attack because they were purging.

Mm-hmm.

Um, which does happen that whether or not that actually becomes part of

the statistics depends on what goes on that person's death certificate.

Was it heart attack or was it bulimia nervosa, right?

Mm-hmm.

So probably under reported, um, same thing with suicide, that is secondary to

the distress of being, you know, caught up and tangled in a needing disorder.

Um, so it is, it is a very serious thing that really deserves a lot of, you

know, research and treatment efforts.

Um, also, individuals with higher body weight have a 2.5 times greater chance of

engaging in disordered eating behaviors as people of quote unquote normal weight.

Um, and receive an eating disorder, a clinical diagnosis of an eating disorder,

half as frequently as people who are considered normal weight or underweight.

So going back to the point I was talking about earlier, right?

Yeah.

Where it's like, well, we, you know, there's a lot of assumptions

of like, oh, you're fine.

Oh yeah.

You don't need to worry.

So, um, and there is more awareness now around like binge eating disorder

than there has been in the past.

Mm-hmm.

But even so, there should not be an assumption a, that someone who's

in a larger body does binge eat.

Right.

Or B, that if they have an eating disorder, that's the

one that they have, right?

Because we just don't know.

Yes.

Um, and then L-G-B-T-Q youth who have been diagnosed with an eating disorder

at some point had nearly four times greater odds of attempting suicide,

um, in the past year compared to those who had never, uh, suspected or been

given an eating disorder diagnosis.

So again, the correlation between eating disorders and suicidality.

Is significant.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

The, uh, the other stat about the higher body weight, it's one of those things

where like I can reflect to someone in a bigger body where I think probably it was

right as I was starting, my grad program just was like in a really stressful

transition and period of my life.

And so I found myself more often really engaging in disordered

eating and restriction.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and just like straight up not eating Yeah.

Throughout the day, you know, like getting by on a coffee and just

like not taking care of myself.

And I'd gone back to the doctor, um, after not going for so long of course.

And I was like, congratulated.

They were like, you've like lost 20 pounds since we saw you last.

I was like, good job.

Yeah.

I'm not kidding.

They were like, they were like, yeah, what are you here for today?

And I was like, antidepressants, like, I like am not taking care of myself.

Right.

And you congratulating me upon losing 20 pounds feels like

shit because I wasn't doing it.

Quote unquote, the right way, I was hurting myself, so it was tough.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so kind of, you know, moving into that pipeline of like,

what is disordered eating then?

So these are patterns of irregular eating behaviors that, again, don't

meet the full criteria for an eating disorder, but still very negatively

affect physical and mental health.

So some examples are patterns you may exhibit or have noticed

with other folks in your life.

Um, chronic dieting or again, that yo-yo dieting.

So just constantly going back and forth between different diets or,

um, you know, restriction skipping meals, uh, restricting calories,

um, obsession with clean eating, which is also called orthorexia.

Um, and I feel like there's probably even a, a bigger increase for

me in understanding orthorexia over the past couple of years.

Yeah, I really didn't know what that was until a few years ago.

Um.

So that's, you know, like completely cutting out sugar or dairy or, you

know, things like that where it's, but it's an obsession around it.

Uh, frequent guilt or shame after eating very rigid rules about food or exercise.

Um, and then using exercise primarily to earn or burn off calories.

Um, and this matters because people oscillate between disordered eating

and diagnosable eating disorders, probably across their lifetime

as we've been talking about.

And then the cultural normalization of disordered eating, um, cheat

meals, detoxes fasting, intermittent fasting, um, anything where, again,

there's too much preoccupation around it is making it acceptable and how.

These things are reflected culturally, um, in society at large and then

intergenerationally between families.

Yeah.

Um, a lot of my, you know, concepts around food are, because I was watching

my mom, because I was listening to the women in my family talking about

their bodies or juice cleansing.

Mm-hmm.

Or you're just not taking care of yourselves.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, it's a big one.

And it does feel like the noise is louder than ever.

Oh my gosh.

Because of the nature of social media Yes.

And content creation.

Mm-hmm.

That if content creators are going to continue to churn out more and more

content, which they have to do to like, stay relevant and try to go viral and

da da da or their audience, then they are constantly throwing out, well,

here's what you need to be doing.

Well, here's what you're doing wrong.

Right.

Like, all of that.

And so it's, if it feels like it's up to 11, like.

It, it really is, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, and one thing that I do wanna touch on is, 'cause I used to have

a misunderstanding about this is, you know, back when I was working

in residential treatment Yeah.

And this was, you know, over 10 years ago, and I've been vegan for nine years.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and that's, you know, for ethical reasons.

But at that point in time, my assumption was if somebody comes in here who's vegan,

they're just using that as a convenient, you know, way to restrict, right?

Yeah.

And, and it's orthorexic and it's like inherently like, what's your,

why are you so rigid about this?

Why don't you, why don't you have anything that even has a little bit of dairy in

it, or a little bit of egg, or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

And of course, like becoming vegan and learning about that world, I

have realized like, number one, yes.

It can absolutely be tangled up in disordered eating, and that has to be

looked at and there's ways of doing that.

My friend Jen Friedman wrote a book about veganism and eating

disorders with Rutledge press.

That is very worth checking out for anyone interested in that.

Um, because yes, it can get tangled up, but it's not inherently so.

Right.

Sure.

So it's, you know, things to look at are like, okay, is that person

being congruent with other choices?

Mm-hmm.

Like, are they wearing leather?

Are they, you know, doing these other things?

Like is it sort of like just the food piece and they're using that

as, um, it really is rigidity or is it something that is part of

their ethical sort of framework?

And the unfortunate thing is a lot of treatment centers still do

just assume that it's disordered and so they won't often support.

People coming in on a vegan diet.

Okay.

And they'll say, well, if you're gonna come here, you're gonna need to have

some dairy or you're gonna need to have, and that to me is so unethical,

like I would refuse at this point.

And there are a couple treatment centers now Asana is kind of one that was on

the leading edge of that, that was like, Hey, we will work with ethical vegans.

Like yes, we will sift through to see what is the eating disorder and what is kind

of the ethical choice, but we will get them the food that they need, you know?

And, and that's to me, like the benefit of this day and age is that we have

all of these options available, right?

So where it's like, okay, so we're not actually not gonna let you skip dessert

night because we have, you know, soy milk, ice cream or whatever, right?

Yeah.

So it's not about like, just get the convenient excuse.

But I think that's an important thing to, to think about with, um, not assuming

that veganism is, um, rigid or, or thoracic, but knowing that it could be.

Sure, yeah.

Cool.

So looking at the generational influences that we've started kind of, uh, hinting

at, um, speaking for the millennials.

Well, yes.

Uh, as the lister described that peak nineties, two thousands, the low

rise gene with the completely flat stomach that is just like biologically

impossible after the age of 14.

Um, that heroin chic aesthetic, the Kate Moss.

Mm-hmm.

The, you know, all of it, which of course this every, you know,

fashion is cyclical, right?

Oh, so it was Twiggy in the sixties and then they're, you

know, back in, in the nineties that is, that was kind of in again.

And um, and even, you know, there was a little bit of that coming

back around a couple of years ago.

Um, it's never fully gone away, right, sure.

But it's, there are these sort of like fashion trends that sort of make

this sort of cyclically popular, you know, the, the Kardashians are sort

of part of my generation, right?

Yeah.

And like seeing like.

When a couple years ago, like, it was like, what happened to Kim?

And like, who is the baby?

Right.

Oh my gosh.

So yeah, the tabloid culture.

Wow.

Oh my God.

Like relentless.

Yes.

It's just, it's seared into my brain.

Of course, magazines are a dying breed.

Sure.

But we still see 'em at the grocery store and Oh, people of it all.

Yes.

And, and just always the weight loss stories and everything.

Mm-hmm.

Um, the, of course all of the fad diets, like you mentioned, Atkins, south

Beach of, my God, the Special K diet.

I, I get angry about like certain things.

I'm like, what is special?

K There's no nutrients in it whatsoever.

It's like, so is that like the cereal?

Yes.

Like somebody crushed up a vitamin and, you know, put that in there and like

the freeze dried fucking strawberries.

I used to eat that all the time too, but I'm like, no, you're

gonna be hungry 30 minutes later.

Yes.

Deeply.

So.

Um, also, oh my God, at one point I. In high school, went to

Barnes and Noble and I mm-hmm.

Picked up this book that was, I forget what it was called, but it

was something like The Miracle, you know, whatever, whatever.

And it was, you were supposed to drink like several tablespoons of olive

oil, um, like at least once a day.

And that was like, oh my God, you'll just be like so satiated and like,

you just won't even, you'll like only want like one meal a day.

Right.

So I was, I mean, sure, because you're getting out Evu bitch.

Like, I'm scared.

I only did it I think a few days 'cause I was just like,

okay,

wow.

Oh God, I know.

It's dark.

Dark.

Okay.

And then of course the Biggest Loser.

There's like a new documentary about it.

I need to watch it.

I need to, it's only three episodes.

I binged it.

Oh my god.

Two nights ago in one night.

Oh.

And Jillian has gone off the Rails, honey.

And she was not Never really on the rails.

No.

But yes, obviously like exercise framed as punishment.

Yep.

Come on.

Grew up with that.

Come on.

Um, you know, I'm so bad I had a piece of pie.

I am so bad.

Mm-hmm.

Super sinful.

They're naughty.

Yes.

Oh my gosh.

And of course, millennials, you know, God bless.

We are more likely than our previous generations to seek therapy, but we

did grow up with extremely normalized disordered eating and body image.

Yeah.

That's what's interesting for me as someone that's like, in

a way, a millennial, right?

Like I sit in that cusp where like I was watching The Biggest Loser and you know,

I'm watching my, the adults around me go to like Weight Watchers or those meetings.

I think my, I mean my grandmother would go to.

Whatever the version of that is.

Yeah.

In the UK where you know you're doing the support standing there or

doing the scale in front of everyone.

Uh, slimming World, that's what it was called.

Slimming World.

I'm like, what?

Yeah.

So, you know.

Um, but with that, and now further into, you know, 2025 and the other realms,

there's a lot more exposure to the body positivity slash neutrality movements,

which we'll get into in a little bit.

But of course the social media is a double-edged sword.

So the inclusive representation of seeing people in different bodies working

out, uh, you know, approaching, but then there is kind of a, what I eat in

a day slash food content in general.

Mm-hmm.

Where I'm watching someone eating someone like in a small body, eating like.

The six crumble cookies of the week and like drinking an entire Pyrex Yeah.

Glass of milk.

And so, you know, and then the comments are like, well would

be interesting if a fat person was doing this, you know, Uhhuh.

And so like the internet kind of right.

Commentary around these things is like a little bit murky.

Um, of course filters, uh, face tune.

I feel like.

Why was I 14 years old?

Like taking selfies, listening to Taylor Swift and then face tuning

them for Instagram for people in my fucking middle school.

Like, nobody cares Queen.

Like nobody cares.

Why do you care?

Um, and then just, you know, the OZ epidemic or the GLP one, which

we'll get into, but you know, a lot.

I can't turn on Hulu without seeing Serena Williams.

A very decorated athlete being like, this is why I use GLP ones.

You know?

So it's just a bit discombobulating.

Yeah.

I think we're just seeing so much content all the time.

Yeah.

Um, and the, what I eat in the days in particular where.

It's really awesome and like the normalization around that.

And then sometimes again, just the how people interact with that

content is really interesting to me.

Yeah.

Um, and so of course greater openness about mental health across Gen Z

we're all depressed and scared.

And so, um, and also like the, what I ate in a day, it's like, it all

depends on who's posting it Yes.

And where they're at in their life.

Yes.

Like, that can be really helpful.

Like in normalizing, like I think of Sydney Cummings, who is this YouTube

trainer that I love and I'm doing her program right now, but she, she has like

a, I think a pretty healthy relationship.

She does talk about like, oh, make sure you're getting your protein right and

like, know your macros and all of that.

But she like seeing what she eats in a day.

I am like, oh, like she's just these very normal foods.

Mm-hmm.

And she's not really rigid and she, you know, had this really cool birthday cake

and, um, so I think it can be really normalizing, but then it's also like if

it's someone who's in a bad spot Right.

Or they're like, not well with food.

They're basically just giving a how to.

Yeah.

Which is like in my day, you had to read that on Tumblr.

Yes.

Not see a whole video on here's exactly what I ate too.

And you get to see it in 15

seconds or less.

And then you go onto the next one, Uhhuh.

And the next one.

And the next one.

So you know that that openness about it is good till it's not.

Yeah.

You know, and so there's willingness amongst young people

to seek help, which is great.

But then of course the rising rates of body dissatisfaction

and disordered eating, you know, and I see a lot of comments about

people that are, uh, whether it's.

Beauty content or fashion content in the realm of like body checking where

people are starting the videos out in like their underwear and like how

people interact with that content.

So it's a really interesting time.

Yeah.

I love seeing the, the quote unquote before and after ones

where like a, a trainer or someone will be like, take two pictures.

And one of them is just kind of them like, you know, you're holding

that strong posture, you're like strengthening your core, right.

Or whatever, and you look super fit.

And then they're like, and this was two minutes later when I just relaxed myself.

Yes.

And this is the actual same exact fucking body, right?

I'm like, yes, I do like those.

Yeah, those are

great.

Um.

So, yeah, just throwing, like recognizing some warning signs, right?

Mm-hmm.

So kind of what we were talking about in the realm of disordered eating,

but whether you're noticing this within yourself or your loved ones,

people around you again, just as preoccupation with weight or food mm-hmm.

Or calories or exercise or literally all of the above.

Mm-hmm.

Um, one that I think people don't realize until you're kind of there is avoiding

social situations involving food.

Yes.

So whether it's some of that, um, you know, I don't wanna be eating in front of

this person, or, um, they don't have like, food that feels safe for me at this place.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Where you're kind of aren't picking around or, you know, so kind of,

of that avoidance, um, uh, those physical symptoms, are you dizzy?

Are you losing hair?

Mm-hmm.

Is your gi just all fucked up and outta whack?

Are you having irregular periods?

You know, like the degree of severity across those physical symptoms.

Also, just like not feeling good.

Yeah.

Straight up, like knowing, feeling hungry or feeling pains in the stomach and then.

The being taught to ignore those cues of your body.

Um, and then yeah, just in general, the emotional distress tied to food and body.

Yes.

Are you just constantly ragging on yourself internally, externally, socially?

Not, you know, just Yeah.

How are you showing up and how you think and talk about food and your body.

Right.

And of course, like we kind of said earlier, people who are in like

full-blown eating disorder symptoms, whether that means you're severely

restricting your intake mm-hmm.

Or even, you know, like you're just not getting enough of a certain type of

food, like carbohydrates or something.

Or you're, um, purging.

Yeah.

Or, you know, excessive exercise that can show up on your labs and it

can, you can see like maybe there's certain, you know, minerals or, um,

why can't I think of words right now?

But there are things, electrolytes, um, that if they're out balance can

really take a dark turn quickly.

Mm. But the important thing, going back to the idea of sick enough is so many times,

like people who are in that struggle will almost use if they get labs back, and

there's like nothing really wrong, right?

They'll be like, well, see, I sh you know, if I'm still okay, then

I'm not doing good enough at this.

You know?

Mm-hmm.

Like, I need to try harder, I need to be more restrictive.

Yeah.

And so labs are not always an indicator that things are fine.

Right.

But they can be important to do, to catch warning signs of things are off course.

So, um, that is a really important piece.

And also, ideally, if anyone is struggling with, uh, disordered

eating behaviors, try to go to practitioners who understand this stuff.

Yes.

Right.

Because a lot, I mean the, the education that medical doctors get.

Is horrific.

Yeah.

Um, and so they can often say or do things that can just, you

know, intensify someone's mm-hmm.

Uh, negative feelings or they can miss really big red flags.

Um, same thing with dieticians.

If a dietician or therapist is not informed about this, then

they can be counterproductive.

Mm-hmm.

So specialists all the way.

Um, and then we wanted to talk about some of the, the frameworks that might

be helpful to explore and, you know, some of them will resonate for some

people, others might resonate more for other people and that's all good.

Take.

Good.

Exactly.

So body positivity, um, you know, I'm thinking like, you know, back

to, you know, the aughts and like the first Dove Real Beauty campaign,

which is like a case study in the advertising world of like, you know,

a successful campaign because mm-hmm.

It's spoke to something that people were not seeing, which is.

Real humans in the media at that time.

So body positivity is ultimately a movement rooted in fat activism that

challenges systemic anti-fat bias and affirms that all bodies deserve,

deserve, respect, visibility, and care.

And of course, you know, that's, I would say the, the, um, the,

when the movement is going well, that's what it's really about.

Sure.

But anything can get co-opted, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so body positivity can get co-opted by, you know, brands who

are sort of like, I don't know what you would call it, the equivalent

of like greenwashing or pinkwashing.

Yeah.

Like just trying to like up, you know, increase their sales, but

really like none of their models are over a size 10 or whatever.

Right?

Like, um, so it's,

I

think

of airy, like the modern uhhuh, like the do campaign to airy

to where they weren't like.

Um, you know, they weren't having models that were super thin.

Yeah.

And there was more like they were showing cellulite.

But then now, but like certain at, at a certain point, you're

not going above like an Excel.

So like Right.

Are you that accessible really?

Exactly.

People can buy your shirt.

Exactly.

It's like body positive, but only within a certain parameter.

Right.

Um, and why this matters, obviously it's like, again, when it's done well, it

can help shift the cultural narrative from your body as a problem to be fixed.

To guess what you're worthy exactly as you are.

Right.

Right.

And no matter what.

And it, and that it's really about like being able to see wider versions

of what is considered beautiful, worthy, like all of the above.

Right.

It is that personal self-love and acceptance, but it's also political.

Sure.

Um, challenges.

With body positivity is that it can, it keeps the focus on the aesthetic.

Yeah.

Because it is sort of like, well it's, you know, like, love

what you see in the mirror.

And I'm like, well bitch, it's still not the most important thing about you.

Like your body is the paintbrush, not the canvas.

Yeah.

So some people do feel that pressure to like, oh my God, I'm supposed to love my

body and if I don't then I'm not like a good feminist, or I'm not like evolved.

And, and I think that's a whole other type of fucked up.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and it can feel unrealistic, especially in early recovery.

Um, and the body is not an apology, I would say.

I mean, there are so many, gosh, I wish I had put more thought into

sharing resources here, but we can put more in the show notes.

Yeah.

But there, the body's non apology, I would say is takes us a little

bit into the body neutrality space.

Yeah.

Um, it felt too far.

It's, yeah.

It's probably appropriate for both because I mean, and gosh, the, the book is sitting

right over there on our bookshelf and.

It, I do think it is like a, it's a celebration.

Yeah.

Of like, she's just on the cover, like sprawled out in like a bed of roses.

Oh, I, and so see there's, it's like all of the above.

Um, but yes, it's there, there are a lot of great resources out there, honestly.

Like, just like following people and who are fat on Instagram.

Yes.

And who are, whether it's like they're showing their fashion or

they're, you know, whatever it is.

It's like being able to have that exposure to seeing more versions of beauty.

Yeah.

Maybe I'll write down, um, like some of my favorite creators that are like Yes.

In the body because I love those clip.

Yes.

And that's really put in the show

notes.

It's good exposure too for people who like, have this deeply

ingrained conditioning of like.

Only certain things are attractive and it's like, I'm sorry, how much

time have you spent looking at this?

Right?

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

So body positivity and I think people feel is, uh, you know, in the realm of body

neutrality where people kind of flip flop around between, but more of the definition

or parsed out of what body neutrality is.

So I would say a more recent approach.

Yep.

Um, emphasizing acceptance and functionality over the appearance.

Hmm.

So the focus is not necessarily on loving how your body looks, but

appreciating what it allows you to do.

So hugging your.

Hugging your kid, picking your children up, or walking your dog

or laughing with your friends.

So this matters because it's often that middle ground for those that are, again,

struggling with that body love feeling that that's maybe too aspirational or

they're not there yet, or they don't know if they can ever be there in that way.

And so it's less about the positive feelings per se, and more about

reducing that constant internal judgment, um, as well as external.

So, you know, I hate my stomach, can go to my stomach, digests

food and keeps me alive.

And so in my personal journey, body neutrality has been important.

Yes.

Um, because my relationship to my body is very fraught and avoidant.

And so when I'm walking up a flight of stairs, I'm like, oh, you know, whatever.

And then I'm like, my body carried me up a flight of stairs.

Yes.

Kind of like, thank you legs.

Thank you legs.

Mm-hmm.

Like, and people, I don't know, I've approached it and people think it's.

Cringe or you know, whatever.

And I'm like, we just at our resting, so much is happening

Yeah.

Inside of us at all times.

Oh God.

That we don't ever think of.

Right.

And like that's actually pretty fucking cool.

Thank you spleen.

Thanks spleen for I what you do.

But deliver is delivering, you know?

Um, so this resource I just threw down was, uh, for some articles

from the Center for Body Trust, which was kind of interesting.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and you know, again, we'll kind of backfill some

extra resources that we love.

Yeah.

But I think body neutrality, I think you can, the flitting

between positivity and neutrality.

Yeah.

And my personal sphere, I can have body neutrality within myself.

But body positivity I find really easy when I'm like following my

favorite fat creators where I'm like, okay, bitch, you look tea.

Yes.

And then it's like, but I'm not, I don't, my fat doesn't fat that way.

You know?

Like those thoughts.

So it's, the neutrality has been helpful for me.

Yeah.

And I also think with the positivity piece, like it's not, it doesn't

have to be like a, like I must love every single thing about my body.

Right.

But, but are there a couple of things aesthetically that you're like, damn, I

have nice eyes, or like my hair, whatever.

Yeah.

Especially the things that are either, you know, don't change about you or that

you are choosing like your hairstyle.

Mm-hmm.

Your tattoos or whatever.

Um, another resource that I love for body neutrality, and this is kind of

a wild title, but it's provocative on purpose, is living with your body and

other things you hate by Emily Sandoz.

Mm-hmm.

Um, it's.

Uh, from an ACT perspective.

And so act is sort of like, okay, what if actually a, your body's not

the problem, but actually your body image is not the problem either.

It's your relationship with your body image, right?

Yeah.

So we actually don't need to fix your body image and make you

love everything about your body.

We actually just need to help you get better at unhooking from

all the body image noise so that you can live your life mm-hmm.

And focus on the things that you value.

Right?

Love that.

So, so it's a great book and has a lot of good like exercises to explore.

Um, another thing we wanted to talk about is the idea of intuitive eating,

which is a framework that was developed by two dieticians in the nineties,

Evelyn Tripoli and Elise Resh.

Um, it's about helping people rebuild trust with their bodies

and rejecting diet culture.

They created these 10 principles.

Some of them are rejecting diet mentality, honoring hunger, respecting

fullness, discovering satisfaction.

There is one that is, uh, like the, one of the last principles of

gentle nutrition because, you know, I think that people can hear about

intuitive eating and if they only do like a very superficial examination

of it, they're sort of like, oh.

So like, I just basically like, just like eat whatever I want, right?

Like I just, like, my body wants like a half gallon of ice cream and

I just need a half gallon, and it's like, no, you're missing the point.

Right?

Right.

Entirely because your body doesn't actually probably want that.

Right, right.

Like your brain, your brain might, you're like, whatever.

You're sort of using the food to function as might want that, but if you're really

developing that connection with your body, that's usually probably not it.

Or at the very least, like.

Sometimes there is a little bit of a, of a rebound if you're coming

out of like a lot of, uh, long time of like a very restrictive mindset.

Yeah.

Sometimes there is a little bit of like, well, shit, I'm gonna give

myself more ice cream and then this and this, and, um, but that's not

usually where you'll land, right?

Because when we get to that principle of gentle nutrition, it is starting

to look at like, actually my body, I think is like craving veggies, right?

Mm-hmm.

Like, uh, when I don't get enough of them, I notice that I crave them

and that, you know, there are foods.

I think it's important to say that while we try to get out of the diet mentality

of good foods, bad foods, because that keeps people stuck in this restrict

binge mentality, that's just not helpful.

But some foods are more nutrient dense than others, right?

And we, I, I love that they call it play food instead of junk food.

Like, I, I can integrate play food into my, into my day-to-day eating.

But it doesn't need to be the vast majority of what I eat or

my body's gonna feel like shit.

Mm. Right.

So, um, yeah, the challenge is it can feel scary or chaotic at first if you've

been disconnected from your body's cues.

Sure.

Your hunger cues for a long time, if you're used to sort

of overriding those cues.

Mm-hmm.

Um, it can be helpful, you know, depending on where you're at on the spectrum of

disordered eating, obviously it can be helpful to work with, um, a dietician

and therapist who specialize in this.

Yeah.

If you're gonna explore that.

Um, and I will say that it is not appropriate for people who

are in the full blown eating disorder and an early recovery.

Yes.

Because like your eating disorder voice is too tangled up.

And so if you're just like, Hmm, what does my body want?

Mm-hmm.

Only salad, nothing.

Right.

Yeah.

So, um, but yeah, it can really, the more that you practice it more deeply,

it can help people reconnect with their.

Innate hunger and fullness cues.

Um, it can remove that more morality from food and just help

us look at it more functionally.

Right?

Like, how, what, how can this food serve me?

Mm-hmm.

Cool.

Um, and then one of the last ones wanted to throw down is health at every size.

A k, a and the abbreviation ha right?

Is it Hayes?

Yeah.

Ha.

Um, so this is a paradigm created by Dr. Lindo, Orlindo Bacon.

Mm-hmm.

Love, um, that focuses on weight, inclusivity, health enhancement,

eating for wellbeing, respectful care, um, prioritizing healthy behaviors

rather than someone's body size.

So I feel like there's, um, you'll see some, uh, MDs now that have like.

That market themselves as, or talk about or utilize haste principles

and their practice therapists, dieticians, things like that.

So, um, what matters for health at every size, of course, is it's

countering the myth that weight is the primary indicator of health.

Yeah.

Um, this is really important for me as someone, as a fat, as a fat person.

Um, it's, you know, supporting the sustainable health habits without

the harm of chronic dieting.

Um, and yeah, this is again, something that I never learned about

until I started at the Gaia Center.

Mm-hmm.

I'd never even heard that before.

This wasn't something that was discussed in my graduate program.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so it's been an interesting thing to learn about and to honestly talk.

To people about, um, just because there is so much stigma, um, you know,

very, very historically, we look at the BMI, um, and please go listen to the,

uh, maintenance phase episode about the bmi That totally changed my life.

Yeah.

Um, Aubrey Gordon and, um, oh no, I forget.

Yeah, I don't remember.

Love him though, king.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, fantastic.

But, um, you know, the, the association for size, diversity and health has

further educational things around this realm, which is interesting.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, it's of my, it's been cool.

One of my, one of my favorite resources of theirs is this like

three minute YouTube video mm-hmm.

Called Poodle Science.

Okay.

That they, they sort of use dogs as a metaphor to like show like if poodles are

sort of the, the medical establishment.

Yeah.

And they're like, well, they think that everyone should be a poodle.

And it's like, well, guess what?

Some of us are mastiffs, right?

Yes.

And if you try to, you know, make a mastiff of poodle,

like it's gonna be bad news.

Right.

So, yeah.

And I think that Hayes is something that, again, just like intuitive eating,

if somebody hears about it and they have not dug deeper to actually more

fully understand the ethos and the principles, it would be easy to poke

holes in and be like, what do you mean you could be healthy at every size?

Like if you're, you know, you can't even walk and you can't even, whatever.

Mm-hmm.

So number one, there's sort of the philosophy of, and this is,

you know, controversial, but like that nobody owes you health.

Sure.

Like, yes, there are elements of every thing related to individual

health that could be, you know, said to be public health issues.

Sure.

So like it, you know, in ways of Sure.

Smoking as a public health issue that affects us all if we're,

you know, if we look at the, all of the tentacles of that Right.

But, um, ultimately nobody owes.

Anybody else to be quote unquote healthy to begin with.

Yeah.

And then also just that idea of it's that there are other metrics

that are more valuable mm-hmm.

For really determining where someone's level of health is.

Sure.

Like biometrics that, you know, when you get labs and you, you know,

do your EKGs and things like that.

And that's the thing that gets missed when people are looking purely from A BMI

standpoint is someone could have a high BMI but have other excellent biometrics.

Sure.

And if their doctor is like, well you should lose weight because

your BMI, that's, it's just stupid.

Yeah.

Right.

So it's, it's just more nuanced as everything is.

Sure.

And speaking of nuanced is the great GLP one debate, right?

The OZ epidemic.

The thing that I like to say about this, and then I wanna hear your

thoughts too, is like, I think that part of what we know about.

Body weight and size.

Mm-hmm.

Is this idea of while certain life things can influence this, that

whether it's genetics or whatever, that people have their sort of

natural set point range mm-hmm.

That they tend to be at.

Right.

If they're not, say, eating in a really disordered way, they might tend to

have a pretty natural set point range.

And that natural set point is not always going to agree with like,

for instance, what A BMI chart says their body should be at.

Right.

Sure.

So some people just naturally are gonna have higher set points, and

the only way if that person either just wants to lose weight mm-hmm.

Whether it's for aesthetics or they feel like they really need to

because say, you know, they have difficulty with their knees because

they're carrying extra weight.

If that person wants to take GLP-1 instead of.

The only other way they can reduce their weight is to be continuously starve,

starving themselves for the rest of time.

Then I'm like, please take the GLP once.

Right.

So I think the problem is we shouldn't look at it as like, oh great.

Yay.

Everyone can be thin now.

Right?

Um, or it like, because you can take that, you should, right?

Mm-hmm.

Like that's, it's still, there needs to be a baseline level of

acceptance, compassion, dignity, you know, like in terms of, regardless

of what size of body someone's in.

But I, I think that the judgment around people who choose to

take this, uh, is also kind of shitty, especially for people.

If it's coming from someone who is in a thin body and they're like,

I just don't get why, you know?

Right.

Adele, you get the easy way out.

Right.

Or like.

You know, I just, oh, I just like her in a bigger body.

Mm-hmm.

It's like, well, bitch, that's not your decision because maybe there's reasons

that you don't know that someone felt like that was the right move for them.

Mm-hmm.

And what are your thoughts?

Yeah, I feel like it's such a intertwining, like complic.

I, I feel like I have such a complicated relationship with all of this right now.

Mm-hmm.

Um, off your point, one thing that I'm acutely aware of other people's

bodies, none of my fucking business.

Amen.

You know, so that could be the episode and like that really could be it, you know?

So like, again, your, the choices that someone individually is making

for their health overall is well and truly none of my business as I wish

for other people to perceive about me.

It's none of your business either.

So I think we really, the normalization of that, uh, needs to happen more often.

And then of course, just the avenues where, again, so many things.

Can be fine as they are until there's pipelines a bit where they're being

abused or misused or, um, misrepresented.

And I mean, people, people can really go into all of the, like,

we don't know a lot of the like long-term effects of medication.

Sure.

Right.

And, um, it's not lost on me about like from, I don't know, the eighties, nineties

where like fen was a thing, right?

And then the FDA was like, oh, just kidding.

People are dying off of this.

And so some of the associations made from that into the glp one

of it all where America and or society loves a miracle drug, right?

We love a miracle drug and science is amazing.

And I don't know, I just think it's very nuanced.

I don't seek to like, uh, I said the epidemic and so, you know,

like I was being a bit cheeky tongue and cheek about it.

It's none of my fucking business.

Um, I have people in my life that are on GLP ones and.

Um, some of them are having a great time and some of them are not.

And so that's even just been illuminating to me as well, where some people, um,

are really sick and, uh, someone in my life has lost a hundred pounds.

Yeah.

From not really changing anything, just eating less, taking the GLP

one and like exercise and other, what they've eaten has not changed.

And that's which is curious.

Right.

That's one thing that's kind of opened my mind a little bit but is, is like,

it's so case by case because I have heard of people kind of secondhand who like,

are like, oh yeah, I'm on this and I'm losing weight, but they're having so much

GI distress and it's like a lot, okay.

We don't necessarily wanna be losing weight 'cause we're

not absorbing nutrients.

Right.

But then there's other people that I've talked to like directly who've

been like, yeah, actually I feel fine.

And Right.

It's, you know, I'm not, I don't feel like deprived.

I don't, you know.

Mm-hmm.

I feel energized and so it's case by case.

It's so case by case.

And I will say that.

What the media also loves is drama of course Course and fear monitoring.

And so sometimes you'll be like, oh my god, it ozempic face or

like you're losing muscle mass.

And it's like, there's a great episode of science verses that kind of breaks

some of those things down and is like, actually what the science says is

people who are losing weight on GLP ones are not losing any more percentage

muscle mass than just anyone losing weight for any reason in general.

Sure.

Right.

So it's like, you know, be, be aware of kind of how the media tends to be.

That's a great episode.

Yeah.

Um, I don't know if they've done another one on it since then, but

Yeah.

It's case by case.

Yep.

Um, I was talking to someone recently, we were talking about GLP ones and

I was like, I think I feel about GLP ones in the way that I feel about IUDs.

Like, yeah, I have the Morena and like other people are like.

I couldn't have that one.

And I'm like, okay.

You know, you don't have to, it really just depends Uhhuh.

Right.

And everyone hates that answer, but like, I know, but it does, it does

just depend the cultural aspects of it.

I are challenging, you know, like it's, it's inauthentic for me to

say that, that I'm not struggling with the concept over Sure.

GLP ones as it impacts my personal life.

Yes.

Um, as, yeah.

Someone that's fat, but it's also just like, dude, like it's,

everyone's bodies are not my business.

Yeah.

I gotta just, you know, let other people do my, do my own shit so Well, and, but

for real, of course our relationships with food and bodies do not exist in a vacuum.

They are shaped by families, our society, culture, generational stuff.

Just all of the messages that we have been absorbing since Warf honey.

Mm-hmm.

If you have struggled, obviously please know that you are not alone.

Um, you are a human living in a society that definitely

profits off of your insecurity.

And healing is not about forcing yourself to love every inch of

yourself, if that is not your truth.

Ultimately, can we pivot to finding freedom from shame or learning to trust

your body really, no matter your age?

Your size, or your history?

There it is.

There it is.

Hmm.

And now our musical segment.

Now, that's what I call, okay.

Where Emerson and I each share a song with each other each week as representatives

of our respective generations.

We tell you a little bit about the song or artist, and then we press pause,

we share the song with each other, and then we come back for our live reaction

and we're capturing it all on a Spotify playlist link in the show notes for you.

My song this week is this like.

Haunting tear jerker.

Ooh.

Of a nineties rock song.

Okay.

Called Anna's Song by Silverchair, which is an Australian band.

Okay.

Um, and the lead singer Daniel Johns had struggled with depression and anorexia.

So he wrote this song, Anna, is this, this kind of, I mean, and it's poetic, right?

And it, and when you're writing a song, it makes sense to sort

of personify it in this way.

Uh, the personification is sort of a thing, right?

With like Jenny Schafer's.

Um, I'm looking at the books right now and all I'm seeing is goodbye Ed.

Hello Me.

Which is the follow up to live without Ed.

There it is.

So this idea of like, if Ed is sort of like a separate part of you Yeah.

Right.

That you can dialogue with, that you can acknowledge is not me.

So there is, you know, there is a, a, you know, helpful

thing about externalizing, but.

In the sort of nineties online Tumblr world of it all.

There was also sort of a romanticization that happened with like Anna and Mia for

anorexia and bulimia of like, these are, this is my girl, like she's my bestie.

And so it's kind of, kind of gross, but also again, when it's used in this way of

like a poetic kind of songwriting, he's not really romanticizing it in this song.

Sure.

He's more just like talking about this kind of struggle with this thing.

Interesting.

Um, and also as I was looking this up, I did not know that Daniel was

married after he was doing better.

He was married in the mid aughts to Natalie and Brule for five years.

So just Australian Power Couple.

Wait, what's her song?

Nothing's fun.

I'm.

I'm a lot of

faith.

Yeah.

Wait, shut up.

Okay.

Well, God damn guys, the, the video inside it was, we were

just like, trigger warning.

I'm also just like, what I, I, I feel like I say this every

fucking time that you bring, what?

It's just like those millennial ass songs where I'm like, what

I wouldn't give to just like.

Be a dude at that time that was like, uh, like,

like it's tea.

It's like he sounds good as far and a hair.

We had some good hairstyles.

I think so, yeah.

Okay.

That's your song.

So I picked a very Uber, a viral song via the interwebs.

Um, this song went super viral, viral on TikTok in 2022,

which is how I discovered her.

Um, Maddie Zam.

I think that's how you say your name.

Maddie Girl, if you're listening, you're not, but that's okay.

Um, her song Fat Funny Friend, so she competed on season 16 of American Idol,

which I thought was t because this song is co-written by Idol alumni, um, Katie

Turner and I've almost put her songs on.

Okay.

So like she'll future guest?

Yes.

Okay.

Like, kind of really love her stuff.

Um, but her discography kind of in general, to me, kind of, you know, the

array of topics of being raised religious coming out as queer body image identity.

So, uh, this song just resonated in so many ways.

I think there was, um, it made me think of the movie, um, the Deaf,

did you ever watch that movie?

No.

Wait.

Designated Ugly, fat Friend?

I don't think so.

Never watched it.

'cause I was just like, yeah.

But like very culturally like, was a beloved movie, I would say.

Mm. Um, so that kind of the trope of like being the ugly fat friend

or just like what that means, which is just like my whole adolescence

and young adulthood and onward.

So yeah.

I'm excited for you to hear that.

Hmm.

Damn right.

Wow.

Yeah, I'm like, first of all, that's my kind of pop song.

Oh sure.

Like, just, just beautiful voice.

Really great voice and just, I mean, fabulous.

Lyrics and melody and mm-hmm.

Just so good.

And then one of the things, I mean, the video was fantastic too

because, oh know, even just her lyric video, but Ric had albums Yeah.

The s but it was also like pictures and photos of her across many years.

And one of the things is like, you see her in that video at many different sizes.

Yes.

And of course we can infer, you know, some of that is I'm sure yo-yo dieting.

Mm-hmm.

But also like, and, and what you said earlier about like, caution do not

compliment someone on weight loss mm-hmm.

Because you do not know how they quote unquote, accomplished that.

Right.

Right.

And yet I think that that goes both ways as far as like if someone, like, I know

people who have been in larger bodies can sometimes get hate if they do lose weight.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

And so it's like that too of like, can we goes back to like

it's their own fucking business.

Yeah.

But like, that's just another thing is like, I hope.

Well, I was gonna say, I hope she hasn't received hate for, is she at Moments?

Has been, you know, in a smaller body, but I'm sure she has.

Mm-hmm.

And it's just the complexity of it all.

Yeah.

Oh, the, there's like a whole betrayal element.

Yeah.

I think to that there's probably like a whole episode we need

to, to do on fatphobia at large.

Yeah.

Like, and just what it means, you know?

Mm-hmm.

I would love to have like a another Yeah.

A voice totally in there about that.

But yeah, she's, she's cool and I think has openly talked about having,

uh, maybe like a gastric sleeve Okay.

Or stuff like that.

Yeah.

So.

And then back to the Adele of it all where there was quite the like cultural

of like how or she, yeah, yeah.

And like, can you sing anymore because you're not sad?

You know,

all

those things.

It's an interesting

wild.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And now for our last segment of the show, welcome to Fire Dumpster Phoenix.

It is rough out there y'all.

And we need all the hope we can get.

It's time to go dumpster diving for some positive news and rise from the

leftover Happy Meal ashes together.

So Valerie, what is your good news this week?

Oh my gosh.

I just brought this, this was perfectly snippet already,

so I'm just gonna read this.

This is, comes from the the monitor.

A biodegradable mushroom kayak proved seaworthy.

Oh my God.

Okay.

So Mycologist Sam Shoemaker, love, love Sam Shoemaker built the vessel using my

mycelium the root-like structure of fungi, which he cultivated in a mold and dried

for months before testing it at sea.

Wow.

He paddled 26.4 miles from Catalina Island to San Pedro last month.

And the, the material, which is lightweight, buoyant, and

biodegradable, offers promise as an alternative to plastic.

Hmm.

He said, I'm pleased with how far this project has gone,

but there's a long way to go.

And I'm just like, oh my gosh.

It's giving me a little bit of hope because we do need to be helping

companies come up with some better ideas.

Sure.

For single use plastics.

Wow.

Okay.

How fun.

All right.

I saw this one.

An animal story it's gonna get me every time y'all.

So a TikTok shared his story of inquiring at a restaurant, Cheddars.

Oh, kitchen cheddar.

Of course, we know a cheddar and their unforgettable

response to his dogs last meal.

So his username is cousin Homer, I believe, from Missouri.

He's a singer and multi-instrumentalist posting on TikTok.

Of course, he called Cheddar and asked for the best juicy steak with no sides.

And they were like, well, are you sure?

Like, you know, I just like have the sides.

And he was like, it's for my dog.

And I don't think she'll like eat any of it other than

maybe like a few french fries.

Um, you know, and essentially like, this is like her last steak.

So like giving her before a scheduled euthanasia, before a scheduled

euthanasia that evening, I believe.

So he shows up to get the food and, uh, you know.

They, the people on staff like had greeted him and came out and gave him a

card and they'd all signed it with their condolences and they comped the meal.

And I don't know, I feel like there's like a cynical part sometimes when these

stories happen because then Cheddar was like, you know, they'd made some kind of

thing of like, we were so grateful to do this, and everyone's like, corporations.

And I'm like, listen, I get it.

And also like, just like these threads of humanity, like yes,

really gr keep me grounded as someone very like existentially

anxious and everything like that.

So.

Bella, you know, his bestie of 13 years.

She got her blowout last meal with a big old juicy steak and just like a really

sweet human moment and like pet grief, we need to do a whole episode that, oh

my, yes, I'm a state because we both have a moment there, you know, but,

um, hug your dogs and cats and puppies.

Thanks Cheddar for like, you know, having some humanity,

right?

And like, you know, let's be real.

Altruism has always had an element that like, it feels good.

Yeah.

And so it's like, fine if a company also benefits from that, it doesn't

mean that there wasn't like genuine human care in that too, right?

So I just like, let us have something, you know, for God's sakes.

God dammit.

Alright,

listeners, that's all we have for this week.

Thanks so much for listening.

We'll see you next time.

Bye.

This has been another episode of But For Real, produced by

Valerie Martin and Emerson writer,

and edited by Sean Conlin.

But for real is the Gaia Center production.

The Gaia Center offers individual couples and group therapy for clients

across Tennessee and in person in our Nashville office, as well as

coaching for clients worldwide.

For show notes or to learn more about our work, visit gaia center.co or find

us on Instagram at the Gaia Center and at, but for Real Pod, but for Real is

intended for education and entertainment

and is not a substitute for mental health treatment.

Also, since we host this podcast primarily as humans rather than clinicians, we

are not shy here about sharing our opinions on everything from snacks and

movies to politicians and social issues.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode.

See you next time.

Bestie.