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Veronica: [00:00:00] In this episode, we take a hard look at the New South Wales planning system and ask a question that many in the property world are thinking, but rarely say out loud, is the system actually helping deliver housing or quietly strangling supply with approvals, delays, stretching timelines, increasing costs, and constraining supply.

Veronica: We unpack where projects are getting stuck, why merit has become such a moving target, and how uncertainty in planning decisions is reshaping risks for landowners and developers. Guiding the conversation is James Oldner, a planning and development lawyer who works daily at the sharp end of approvals, appeals and court processes across New South Wales. Drawing on deep experience with councils, planning panels, and the land and environment court, we wanna know what James is seeing play out in real projects where the system breaks down, how long delays are actually taking, and whether recent and proposed reforms are likely to unlock supply or simply add another layer of complexity.

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Veronica: [00:01:00] Our guest today is James Old know special counsel in Mills Oakley's Planning and Environment team specializing in planning and development law across New South Wales. He advises landowners and developers on projects of all sizes and regularly appears before councils, planning panels and the New South Wales Land Environment Court, which all gives him a deep, practical insight into how the approval system really works.

Veronica: Now this is gonna be interesting. James has been so much happening in this space. So welcome and thanks for joining us today.

James: [00:02:00] Thanks, Veronica. Glad to be here.

CB: ~ um,~ the number one story I was obsessed with last year was the changes in New South Wales,~ um,~ around Todd and, watching approvals. ~ um, you know, Um, ~coming to this year, it's still probably my obsession to try to understand this. ~Um, ~what's your take on. the action from Chris Minz and you know, obviously what's happening, just obviously explaining that would be really valuable, but also just really where you are seeing,~ um,~ action from not just developers, but you know, ~um, ~the whole industry, sort of where's it actually stacking up?

James: ~Uh, ~you're correct, Chris. There were a raft of changes over the last 24 months since Mins has been in government. ~Um, ~to put it simply,~ uh,~ the labor government, the men's government is giving it a red hot crack, and that is, they are giving it a red hot crack to overlay state policies around New South Wales to unlock supply, to get housing supply going and getting housing delivery going.

James: ~Um. ~So that's the, that's the hot take. It's become a mainstream topic. It's [00:03:00] in, as you say, you heard about it, everyone's heard about it. It's in the papers, it's in the, it's even in the Channel seven news and the nightly news. ~Um, ~from our perspective, it's somewhat difficult to keep up, but we're doing our best.

James: ~Um, ~we've learned so many acronyms that,~ um,~ I don't think I have the fingers and toes Count them on. Right. ~Um, ~so, ~uh. ~Let's just burn through a few. We had,~ uh,~ towards the beginning of the men's government,~ um,~ getting into play. ~Uh, ~we had,~ uh,~ new affordable housing rules around infill affordable housing and the bonus incentives that developers and proponents receive in response.

James: ~Uh, ~we then had the one you mentioned, Chris, which is the Todd acronym, transport Orientated Development. We had that one introduced shortly after. ~Uh, ~the big one though, from my perspective and towards the middle to the end of last year and absolutely moving into 2026, is the one that's called LMR, low to Midrise housing,~ uh,~ state policy,~ um,~ overlaid on into 171,~ uh,~ town Centers, railways and metros across New South [00:04:00] Wales.

James: ~Um, ~so that one is huge.

CB: I think I stumbled on your work 'cause you, do a few posts online. It talks about sort of the court battles, but also, you know, the feasibility of. Actually it costs to build because, you know, I think that then means that it doesn't make sense, even though the state government can zone something, it doesn't mean that it's a free for all and there's gonna be buildings rocking up all over the place.

CB: Like developers aren't a charity, right? So, you know, where are you seeing action actually moving the needle, right? You know, zoning's one thing, but where's actually do you think supply is actually gonna get built rather than just a potential?

James: That's a great question and we we're absolutely at the coalface of this question. ~Um, ~I can tell you that,~ um,~ the. Odd,~ uh,~ state policy. We have really seen not a lot of action. Full stop.

Veronica: let's clarify exactly what that means. So transport oriented development means just so people understand the difference.

James: That's it. So transport orientated development is the name and the told is the acronym given [00:05:00] to,~ um,~ a policy that has been inserted by the state government into. The broad sep. So that's, which is called the State Environmental Planning Policy in relation to housing. Right. ~Um, ~and so all of these state policies seem to be introducing into this broader state policy.

James: And so it's called the, it's actually located in what's called chapter five of this particular policy. Now, ~um. ~The transport orientated development had two stages. The first stage was introduced in May, 2024,~ um,~ and it applied to 37,~ uh,~ stations across New South Wales. So that is the 400 meter area ar outside of these 37 stations, and it chucked over the top of that area a blanket uplift, and that is to increase housing supply.

James: And ultimately, as we say. Hopefully housing affordability.

Veronica: And so what you are saying though is that it's really made no difference.

James: Yeah. And so that really goes to, I think, what Chris is really getting at,~ um,~ the viability of this particular scheme. [00:06:00] I can tell you, it might not be as strong as what we might talk about in a second, which is the LMR, because in terms of volume of applications coming across our desk. Very limited Todd applications, very high volume of LMR applications.

Veronica: So what's holding back the Todd applications if we. We get to the lmr, I wanna know what is making it unfeasible.

James: Yeah. Look, I have heard whispers,~ um, uh, ~at industry events, ETC,~ um,~ that the acquisition cost is really holding back these guys. ~Um, ~in addition to. Everything else that we've been hearing in the news since COVID, which is rising construction costs.

CB: So you're, you're expensive to get the land,~ um,~ you know, hold it, build. They're also burnt all their buffers, their risk tolerance. I imagine with these developers, I mean, you know, it's gotta be a lot lower than it was say, three, four years ago. Right. You know, they've, you know, developed a lot of, gone under, you know, they've burnt their buffers, so is it, they also now are just very strategic and go, if we're gonna build, we've gotta make sure these projects [00:07:00] stack up rather than run on really tight margins and make sure we keep all our staff and buy work sort of thing.

James: Absolutely.~ I mean, I mean,~ how many times have we heard that story of rising construction costs, and so to some degree, the approval timeline, which is something that we might get into in a sec. ~Um, ~that is arguably eaten up into the construction costs. So, yeah, absolutely. ~Um, ~we would have loved, it makes total complete sense, doesn't it, to have highly accessible,~ um,~ and density around these transport hubs.

James: ~Um, ~so whether ultimately it unlocks some time in the future and I see a few more of those applications, we'll have to wait and see.

Veronica: But you're also relying on individual homeowners, you know, being ready to move on, banding up with like-minded neighbors together a site that's big enough. I know there's certain. Organizations running around, knocking on doors, trying to sort of create these consortiums to sell and find buyers for them.

Veronica: But all owners think their house is worth more than it's really worth, you know what I mean? So, and they all think this is a windfall. So I imagine that, that's a very [00:08:00] tenuous,~ um,~ arrangement at best, trying to get enough like-minded individual property owners to be equally motivated and equally ready to meet whatever the market's prepared to pay.

Veronica: Right.

James: Absolutely. I mean, like I. I'm not the one door knocking. I mean, that's all done by the time it comes to me. ~Um, ~but I accept that. I think just the key marker off the top of my head is that the Todd Sep, or Todd policy includes a 21 meter minimum frontage size. So to your point, Veronica, 21 meters is probably a couple of sites, unless you somewhat enough to live on something quite big.

CB: Yeah. And so the, Todd's not happening but there definitely something happening with this low to medium rise. ~Um, ~which,~ uh,~ I think why I'm so obsessed with this story, and I think, It is such a pivot to what we all thought was a certainty prior, right? The, the power of NIMBYs and the power of, how many properties were built in, say, rose Bay or Mossman over the last decade, right?

CB: Like the collective wealth within the city was protecting and limiting supply and pushing all supply to greenfield of estate and pushing it to high [00:09:00] density in certain postcodes, and, you know, townhouses in the fringes and granny flats, but nothing's gonna change in these premium suburbs. That's flipped on its head.

CB: Right. And that changes everything. That changes. So is that how you view it as well? Like the world like basically flipped completely to the way the city is built gonna be built going forward.

Veronica: But can you also, before you answer that, explain what it is exactly? How does it differ from the Todd?

James: Absolutely. So, ~uh, ~it's. differs from the Todd, in the sense that we were just talking about,~ uh, um,~ a range of railway stations, I think we said around 37 railway stations across New South Wales. This state policy applies to,~ um,~ development areas within 800 meters of 171 town centers, train stations, and metropolitan city,~ um,~ railways, right?

James: So, ~um. ~This is everywhere. ~Um, ~it's in my backyard and it's probably in a lot of other,~ um,~ backyards. Right? ~Um, ~so it's way more broad than the Todd. ~Um, ~in terms of the uplift,~ um,~ it's splits,~ uh,~ [00:10:00] 400. Meters away from, let's, let's just use the town center as the marker 400 meters away from the town center gets a greater uplift in between.

James: Further away, 400 to 800 gets a slightly less uplift, right? ~Um, ~it's an interesting way of calculating what, 400 meters walking distance and what 800 meters walking distance actually is,~ um,~ topic for another day or perhaps a, probably a court decision.

CB: And then the affordable housing element of that, right? So like. you can build this stuff, but hey, if you only build a fraction, like a tiny portion, I believe you are gonna get a huge uplift. So it's like a no brainer, but it doesn't, does it really build much more affordable? you know, I mean, I'm guessing you're putting your personal belief, you know, should that have been a much higher percentage?

CB: And just explain, I guess, what developers have to do to get that uplift. 'cause that uplift, you know, is a huge benefit of, and makes feasibility much better to stack up. Right.

James: I'll answer it like this first,~ uh,~ I might blow your brain a little bit. ~Um, ~which is that,~ um,~ inside the 400 meters,~ uh,~ to the town center for the LMR policy,~ um,~ we can have in terms of controls, up to six [00:11:00] stories as of right, affordable housing component required under that policy stock, right?

James: what some developers are do, if it can stack up, is adding in addition to the LMR policy, what we talked about before, which is called the affordable Housing Division one policy inside of the stack. The same step delivering affordable housing, receiving an additional incentive, and possibly going up to eight stories in these areas.

James: That's what it looks like,~ um,~ in our view and essentially in the planning world. That is now the desired future character of these areas in 171 locations. In terms of what the affordable housing policy and those incentives look like,~ um,~ we have to provide a minimum of 10% of the total gross floor area of the development as affordable housing.

James: In response. If we provided 10%, we would receive. An additional 20%, so double the amount of affordable housing in terms of additional height and additional FSR, we can go up to [00:12:00] 15% affordable housing and in response, do the easy math up to 30 and 30%. SR.

CB: you know, you put 10% of your, and it doesn't determine which one's gonna be affordable, obviously. It's probably gonna be the, the least desirable part of the building, right? ~Um, ~but to get that, you get your extra two levels right, and that, you know, that's your penthouse, that's your better views, you know, that's your. Most highest cost. So you, you know, let's just assume all the developers are gonna pretty much do that. ~Uh, ~and then you're gonna start to see eight levels. And then that really does make the numbers stack up for a lot of developers in the premium suburbs where they can sell them for a lot of money.

CB: Like, and hence why I guess you're very busy.

James: Yeah, I, and I can say absolutely that, affordable housing policy is being taken up across the board,~ um,~ a lot of times. ~Um, ~so it, it's a popular policy. ~Um, ~It's not that,~ um,~ the affordable housing units are terrible amenity. That's not the case because have the affordable housing,~ um,~ dwellings are approved.

James: They must have acceptable amenity. That's the test. ~Um, ~so, ~um, ~look, I would certainly live in any one of the [00:13:00] affordable housing units,~ um,~ approved on my desk for sure.

CB: ~ um,~ I think why it sort of blows my mind is when you start on looking at this, you start to look at, you know, and particularly if it's,~ um,~ over 60 million, right? There's a, fast track part to this as well. ~Um. ~You can track this stuff online, it's very easy to get access to it.

CB: Right. Because it's all so, the mosmans, the rose bays, the double base,~ um,~ there's a lot going on you know, if you're reading the, the local paper, you might be getting a gist of it, but,~ um,~ these suburbs are massively gonna change. And, you know, that, might affect some people in a good way.

CB: And, you know, it might increase amenity, but it also affects some owners in there as well. And,~ um,~ yeah. What are you seeing?

James: ~Um, ~there is absolutely going to be change in these areas that the state government has decided that,~ um,~ in, it's not that, ~um. ~As we say, all of the area is going to look like that now. It's going to happen over a period of time. That's the future character in these areas. ~Um, ~Chris, to your point, yes.

James: ~Uh, ~when we're talking about feasibility, yes. These more expensive suburbs in terms of sale prices are the ones that are receiving the [00:14:00] high volume of,~ um,~ development applications and state significant development application at the moment. That makes sense purely on a commercial basis. ~Um, ~so you hit the nail on the head,~ um,~ where we're seeing lots of activity.

James: Mossman,~ um,~ which is North Sydney, L-G-L-G-A. ~Um, ~we are seeing lots of stuff down in Ulaa, LGA, Waverly, LGA,~ um,~ even down Southern Shire, LGA. So that kind of makes sense. Up to six stories, possibly up to eight stories. ~Um. ~In related to the second part of your question, Chris, about this fast tracked,~ um,~ new authority, right?

James: That's called the Housing Delivery Authority. Um, that's something that was introduced in November, 2024,~ um,~ as a ministerial order. It it wasn't embedded in part of,~ um,~ the framework of the New South Wales planning system. I guess to some degree it was more of an idea. Let's see how we go.

James: That's changed at the end of last year. We now have,~ um,~ the Housing Delivery Authority formalized into the Environmental Planning Assessment Act. So it looks like it's gonna be here for some time now. ~Um, ~in terms of what that is. Yes. ~Um, ~it has some key markers in respect of what your development application will [00:15:00] need to achieve.

James: ~Um, ~your development application will need, um, a sea of a capital investment value of over $60 million to start with. It will need to have a hundred plus dwellings. So, ~um, ~we do need to have a contribution to affordable housing, and we do need to essentially provide evidence and satisfy the housing liberal authority that we can commence, um, the construction within 12 months of the approval.

James: So you can see that's exactly what you're saying, Chris. It's fast track to a lot of supply.

Veronica: And so does it take away the complete agency of a council or neighboring owners, you know, dwelling owners to be able to object?

James: Not at all, Veronica. Um, absolutely there is,~ um,~ public exhibition of these types of applications. Essentially how it works is,~ um,~ a proponent will fill out a form. Summarize high level and expression of interest to the housing delivery authority. If it ticks the key markers,~ um,~ you'll then opt out of the expression of interest process, go into the what's called state.

James: You'll be declared state [00:16:00] significant development,~ um,~ in that process. ~Um, ~the Housing Delivery Authority itself is the consent authority. ~Um, ~but there will be public exhibition and there will be opportunities for everyone in the neighborhood to. Put forward submissions in addition to the council, putting forward submissions, those submissions will be considered,~ um,~ prior to a decision being made.

CB: I don't like this because it's gonna remind me of mascot towers or, I don't like this because. It's gonna affect wind tunnels or it's gonna cut down a tree. Like, you know, the typical reasons and the power of a community action group in the suburb that has put a lot of pressure on councils in the past to say no to a development. That those things probably won't get listened to is that the big difference? Like it's, they were able to sort of, you know, the action group to slow down any development in the past, but because of the state government jumping on, is the council fund a really hard to deny these ~um, ~developments?

James: two answers to your question. In [00:17:00] respect of the housing delivery authority pathway and the state significant development pathway,~ um,~ local controls are completely switched off in terms of both that pathway and,~ um,~ what we're talking about before. In terms of LMR,~ um,~ Todd,~ um,~ local controls will only be switched off if they are inconsistent with the higher order state control.

James: So just like for like Apple, for Apple, a height control in a state policy versus a height control in a local policy, the state policy will prevail.

CB: obviously very concerning, for communities, right? and there's a lot argument saying here that you're not building many, you know, how is this changing, you know, that housing affordability challenge, how is this helping us? Right. That's, that's some of the. ~ um,~ the concerns, right? Because these are not gonna be affordable apartments, but how do you view that when, you know, we have got a lot of people, you know, rental crisis. How's the affordability crisis? How do 500 apartments in Rose Bay, double Bay, Bondi? How does that affect help us, you know, and what, what's your view on that?

James: My personal [00:18:00] view is that,~ um,~ often we're seeing three to four bedroom apartments in these larger complexes, and that permits families to get into their areas that are otherwise tightly held by freestanding homes. That's my view.

Veronica: I'm curious about the, um, affordable housing. So 10, 15%, affordable housing.

Veronica: What is the definition of affordable housing? And so, so this put some real dollars on that, you know, say in Rose Bay for arguments sake. How, affordable would an affordable,~ uh,~ portion of this a development in that location? B. And I know it's relative. I get that, but it's in the whole context being interesting.

James: ~Um, ~it's going to be about 75 to 80% of the medium price in the local area.

Veronica: Right. Okay. So internet, which is affordable for that area, and we'll give, hopefully some essential workers an opportunity to get access to that. But it's still gonna be expensive, isn't it? In, particularly, you're talking about Sydney's Eastern suburbs, and I mean, these are principles that as this type of development,~ um,~ you know, state involvement, ~uh. ~Rolls out into other states. This is the sort of [00:19:00] thing that can happen in other states as well. ~Uh, ~we're talking about New South Wales here in Sydney, but the, principle and really how, the knock on effect is of these sorts of,~ um,~ initiatives and policies. It's how it impacts behavior that we're talking about here, right.

James: Absolutely. my personal hope is that these affordable housing units that we are delivering through the development application process through these state policies are absolutely capturing the key workers that need to be in these local areas to provide all the facilities that those key, those key workers need to provide.

James: That's my personal hope, and I really, really, really do hope that we see it through.

CB: ~ um,~ you know, because it's very emotional. Like, ~um, ~I've got clients in these areas. We've got clients with parents in those areas. ~Um, ~you know, who, who, they grew up in that area and they sort of. Know, very, um,~ um,~ nostalgic of what it was like to grow up in, you know, and it's also having a lot on the upper North Shore,~ uh,~ along that train line, you know, the koalas and Gordons and ~um, ~and it's highly emotional if you, particularly if you're personally impacted by it. ~Um, ~but you know, as a broader, like a city level, like how do people [00:20:00] feel a bit more calmer that it is the design quality and the build quality? Isn't gonna be replicated what we build in the 2010s and the two thousands.

CB: Like how are we much more confident that there's gonna be something that's, you know, aesthetically praising, built to last, adding value to the streetscape. And it's not just gonna be this, you know, a zetland type experience within these suburbs.

James: The answer is that,~ um,~ all of these applications will be going through the planning system in 2026, which is a very rigorous planning assessment in terms of merit. ~Um, ~to the extent that,~ um,~ I'm a lawyer and I work outta the land environment court and lawyers are needing to argue the merit. Of a number of these types of applications to have them approved.

James: So from that perspective, there is very, very rigorous assessment going on. It's not slack together, tick a couple of boxes get built. It's very detailed documentation, very rigorous assessment. listening to public, we said before, listening [00:21:00] to the public submissions and ultimately making a decision.

Veronica: So there's still some. Rails here. Then,~ um,~ can we talk about what some of those most common merit issues are? Those that will help a development, those that might derail one.

James: ~Um, ~obviously it was in the, it was on Channel seven news the other night, but Heritage,~ um,~ is a really tricky merit issue that everyone runs into,~ um,~ from time to time, US lawyers in particular, ~um. ~Heritage is tricky. ~Uh, ~it has a regime, like we were saying before in re in respect of how to go about assessing heritage impact.

James: ~Um, ~view loss is a very contentious merit issue. It's probably, you don't need to explain exactly why, but,~ um,~ if you take someone's views out, then you're gonna devalue their property. That's just the reality. ~Um, ~super contentious. ~Um, ~other ones are, I mean, we're talking about, ~um. ~Complying developments on some sites, and in some circumstances, it, may be appropriate from a planning and contextual,~ um,~ perspective to seek variations to the development standards.

James: that's a tricky one. That's a contentious one. ~Um, ~and then we run into things like,~ um,~ stormwater's [00:22:00] always interesting,~ um,~ biodiversity's, always interesting. So, ~um, ~these are all topics keeping us lawyers busy.

CB: think the other thing, right, is that in these suburbs, the, the quality of product, the buyer, and the developer to make a profit's gonna cost a lot. So they need a really high end product that looks good and. People are spending, you know, three, four, 5 million on these places. They're gonna want something that's,~ um,~ you know, really nice to live in and private and spacious and, you know, quality products.

CB: you know, and the setbacks and, and all that sort of stuff. you know, and, and all the engaging is like really top architects, right? it's not just getting, you know, like just thrown together and just push through and let's just build for fun.

CB: It's definitely not that right.

James: Hundred percent. Um,~ Um, ~so every time that you do a residential apartment building,~ um,~ in New South Wales, you need to consider the student to the same policy. ~Um, ~previously CEP 65, now it's,~ um,~ a chapter in the. Housing set as well. ~Um, ~you need to consider the apartment design guide as an additional layer of,~ um,~ control,~ um,~ that is [00:23:00] very detailed in respect of,~ um,~ making sure that the apartments that are getting delivered in New South Wales these days have excellent amenity.

James: That's, that's one. The second,~ um,~ set of controls that we very often see in these areas are located in their local policy, the local environmental plan. And they are controls called Design excellence controls. ~Um, ~they are, the consent authority must be satisfied prior to granting a development consent that the proposal achieves or exhibits design excellence.

James: And there are a number of considerations within that clause. So again, absolutely rigorous,~ um,~ assessment going on here.

Veronica: So when did that come in?

James: It's been around,~ um,~ for some time now. ~Um, ~I've been here at Mill Oakley for almost a decade and ~um, ~I can tell you it's essentially been here for the A DG itself is almost,~ uh,~ off the top of my head, a 2007 document.

Veronica: ~Um, ~

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Veronica: because what we're talking about here is very expensive [00:25:00] locations. Right. So it makes sense that you've got to build to a certain aesthetic. You know, you, got to build to a certain standard, otherwise you're never gonna sell your product. ~Um, ~it also makes sense they can sell these apartments at a price that makes it more viable. They can, they can make these. developments feasible, but how is it rolling out in less expensive areas where land is not as expensive, where the ultimate,~ um,~ capacity to spend money on apartments is less in the population.

Veronica: Are we seeing an impact elsewhere in Sydney in particular and in the state, or is it still more concentrated around those more expensive a areas?

James: At the moment, these controls, these state controls. I'm seeing around these more expensive areas. But that's not to say that,~ um,~ we're only looking at development applications that rely on state controls. ~Um, ~every day of the week, we are looking at,~ um,~ ordinary development applications right throughout New South Wales.

James: ~Um, ~and I can absolutely tell you that,~ um,~ let's call it lesser expensive. They'll be offended by that. ~Um, ~but that's the reality. ~Um. ~[00:26:00] There is equally a rigorous planning regime in place pursuant to the local control. So we have the local environmental planning policies. Like we said,~ um,~ design excellence clauses are everywhere.

James: ~Um, ~Penrith has a famous court decision out in Penrith where,~ um,~ the chief judge makes a comment on how that clause is to operate, so there's one for you. ~Um, ~but otherwise,~ uh,~ all of these LGAs also have,~ um,~ in addition to the local environmental plans. ~Um, ~from Orate policies, which are called development control plans.

James: ~Um, ~again, they are, expressing,~ um,~ a very strict regime, a number of considerations, character considerations, materials considerations. ~Um, ~so I'd have to say it, it is everywhere, Veronica.

Veronica: are they seeing as great an uptake as you are talking about? that's what I'm interested in. That. So the process may be just as vigorous, but is the interest, you know, in terms of what's keeping you busy or, you know, your colleagues busy,~ um,~ is that spreading across all sort of demographics, if you like?

Veronica: ~Uh, ~across Sydney?

James: Guess the typology. The, the answer to your question is, ~um. ~Broadly, no. Like I'm, we're not seeing,~ um,~ six story, eight story apartment [00:27:00] buildings everywhere across New South Wales. ~Um, ~what actually happens as you sprawl is the development typology will change. ~Um, ~so as you go more rural, you'll get more rural development typologies.

James: You'll start to run into industrial warehouses, data centers, storage, storage,~ um, um, ~I mean go further rural. We worked on some fantastic, ~um. ~Function centers for wedding venues,~ um,~ on stud farms, ETC. ~Um, um, ~we've done boarding house, we've done boarding houses, student accommodation everywhere around every major New South Wales,~ uh,~ university,

CB: from my understanding, like this is just for me tracking. I, I'm not an expert at all, but it's like that. You're definitely seeing an uplift of resi in the premium suburbs, but you know, they're stereotypical the Parramatta you know, in roads and I think, you know, Macquarie Park's got quite a bit going on and there's definitely some pockets that are starting to get, but they're obviously a lower price point and it still doesn't make sense for a lot of developers to build because it's actually quite cheap to build, you know, single story or double story.

CB: But to build like a high rise, it's the cost to build. That's obviously, you know, per square meter is actually up a lot. is that kind of [00:28:00] the, the cost to build upwards is actually quite expensive, in today's world rather than it was, you know, say 10 years ago.

James: That's right. And I guess also Chris,~ um,~ now that we're talking, we mentioned the housing deliver delivery authority for those larger scale developments, like that's going to be the consent authority moving forward, I anticipate for those types of developments. So the ones that we see,~ um,~ out at Liverpool, for example, out at Homebush, for example.

James: ~Um, ~all of that bigger stuff. Doesn't really come across my desk because those bigger applications aren't necessarily gonna find themselves inside of the court system. ~Um, ~there's interesting technicality around that as well, which is that the housing delivery or authority has a power not only to declare an application state significant development and then assess it and then be the consent authority.

James: It also has a concurrent power to rezone land so that it can uplift. the properties development controls, and it can change the zoning of land. It's got various broad powers.

Veronica: I don't [00:29:00] know, a, a bit scared about having all of that authority under one roof. Like is the potential for, I don't know, abuse of power here, or misuse or bribery even? I mean, ~um, ~does having all of that under one,~ uh,~ jurisdiction, is that a dangerous thing?

James: ~Um, ~I really hope we don't see any of that. ~Um, ~and I hope, I expect you guys don't either. ~Um, Um, ~when you put it like that, that's a little scary. But at the same time,~ um,~ let's hope these people who are made their way onto,~ um,~ that know what they're doing,~ um,~ know the agenda,~ um, um, ~act between the, the bumpers and deliver what's best for New South Wales.

James: ~Um.~

CB: I think from my understanding, like, ~um, ~just trying to dig around it, it's like there's a lot of, um, ex architects on there. There's a lot of, you know, the, the, this design E. Excellent. It's a lot of real, and it's quite a big broad path. And it's, I dunno if it's a, ballot sort of system or something to keep some bit more random sort of element to it.

CB: But, um,~ um,~ not to say that would,~ uh,~ defeat corruption, I mean, I'm just trying to find holes with this I don't like this to be honest. ~ um, Uh, ~but it's in Maclay Street in Pots Point.

CB: ~Um. ~It got approved on the 18th of December, like, ~um, ~pre-Christmas. That, that, [00:30:00] that's a bit convenient. ~Um, ~but it was like 60 affordable apartments and I think it's gonna be, I dunno, twelves don't, don't quote me on that. Like eight or 12 full floor. know, and I, you know, they, they're gonna be amazing apartments.

CB: I'm not gonna say they're not gonna be desirable, but you did remove 60, not you, but you, you know, the, there's 60 less apartments for Rent Inpost point and there's a lot of key worker housing there and a lot of people who won't be able to live somewhere else. And it is that one of the challenges you know, a reduction in supply rather than an increase.

James: that's a real tricky one, Chris. ~Um, ~it's,~ uh,~ an additional layer of, ~um. ~Consideration needs to be given throughout the regime in the housing state policy that we're talking about. ~Um, ~if a development is removing,~ um,~ existing affordable housing dwellings,~ um,~ it has, again, as I say, a regime, a number of considerations that must be considered by the consent authority prior to granting the development consent.

James: ~Um, ~but what really does [00:31:00] assist, or what that policy really desires is that if it's appropriate in most instances it is, is that,~ um,~ a contribution is paid by the developer into a,~ um,~ affordable housing contribution fund for the removal of,~ um,~ affordable dwellings. Now you can see where I'm going with that.

James: That fund is supposed to go to delivering further affordable housing dwelling. So, ~um, ~I can just say that,~ um,~ slightly different scheme, but we're in the city of Sydney. ~Um, ~the city of Sydney also has, in addition to the state policy, a local affordable housing contribution scheme. And there's public documents on the internet that we can locate that can.

James: Firm that the city of Sydney has recouped approximately $500 million in affordable housing contributions over the last couple of years.

CB: so it's, one of those ones that, you know, we're gonna get this situated and it's gonna be much harder to get those approved, but That happens too much. I think that's gonna be, you know, a real [00:32:00] frustrating thing for people.

CB: Right. ~Um, ~the other thing is, you know, aren't we just gonna see, like it's, I've lived in Rose Bay,~ um,~ um, obviously Bellevue Hill,~ um,~ try getting four kilometers at 8:00 AM in the morning. It's gonna take you 45 minutes. ~Uh, ~I now live 40 K in the city and I can get there in 45 minutes. It's hard, right?

CB: It's, it's peak hour traffic's tough. And if you start increasing supply in an area like that, there's no train station. ~Um, ~you know, yeah, you can go on a bus, but aren't we just going to, you know, increase and we're so addicted to cars. ~Um, ~isn't this gonna be a major challenge covering in the next five, 10 years with disc congestion?

James: We'll have to see Chris, but. I'm with you. ~Um, ~no one likes traffic. ~Um, ~we're all being encouraged or demanded to return to the office. ~Um, ~so working from home's a little trickier than it was in COVID. ~Um, ~that would've helped. ~Um, ~but yeah, look, we're gonna have to wait and see. I'm for additional infrastructure, um, we'd have to dig into what the state's policies are in terms of delivering additional infrastructure.

James: I know as you guys do, the metros are something that,~ um,~ are appearing a lot more. ~Um, ~you'd hope that just as just a [00:33:00] creative idea, you'd hope to see the fast trains one day as well. I think.

CB: But I mean, in Mossman you can't really put a train station in Mossman. You can't really put a train station in. I mean, double Bay's got access to Edgecliff, you know, depending on where you are. but Rose Bay doesn't. Right? And so like, you kind of say, well, how are you gonna get to work?

CB: Well, I can drive or I can get on the bus and. They're both on the road and, and you know, you could cycle, but good luck cycling on that road. ~Um, ~and if you're brave. So it's a hard one to get your head around, right? I mean, obviously they're talking about the train station and, that's something with this scheme is that, you know, maybe the, the zones or the town centers that they have have to change.

CB: If, if you haven't got, you know. Trained or really good access without getting in a car. And ~um, ~is that some of the things that you think you're gonna pop up?

James: Absolutely. ~Um, ~I'm as interested to see how this plays out as you guys. Absolutely. ~Um, ~it's in my backyard as well. ~Um, ~so, ~um, ~I will be affected. But,~ um,~ the interesting part is, Chris, that the, these controls do not apply to the town center itself. ~um. ~That's interesting [00:34:00] concept to think about it, isn't it?

James: In terms of you may have, if the town center controls, let's just use height,~ uh,~ lower than what's around it in the four oh oh meter area will essentially create a, what I've heard described as a bowl.

James: Now there's arguments for and against that I understand.

Veronica: ~ uh,~ what could the arguments for that be? I'm curious.

James: I've heard that,~ um,~ it's a more pleasant experience perhaps to walk around a low scale town center in contrast with a, a higher density, taller town center so that you can see more of the sky more trees.

CB: And where's the heritage overlays come into this? Like,~ Like, um, ~we all like our beautiful federation homes and the beautiful frontages and if we lost it across our whole city, you're absolutely right. And some heritage homes are more pretty than others, particularly the in a row, and they're. One particular street.

CB: ~Um, ~but that's another argument that a lot of people will say is that we're losing the, the fabric. ~Um, ~how is that protected? You know, and also the, the established [00:35:00] trees, like are we, cutting it down a, ~you know,~ 50, a hundred old sort of eucalyptus gum. Like you can't, like good luck. Even if you plant 10 trees, you're not going to, change.

CB: That's a lot of green cover you're losing.

James: Absolutely. So all of these things will be recently assessed Chris and weighed up in ultimately the decision,~ um,~ to approve or refuse. Application,~ um,~ trees, exactly what you're saying. Biodiversity, like, ~um, ~higher order vegetation,~ um,~ demands are,~ um,~ a greater expectation that it will be retained. ~Um, ~as part of the balancing aspect to these approvals or refusals.

James: Heritage itself is super, super strict regime. ~Um, ~every single local environmental planning policy has,~ um,~ a clause in it called Clause five 10. ~Um, ~which tells you how to go about assessing an application in respect of the impact to heritage significance. ~Um, ~as you guys may know,~ um,~ there's a lot of different categorizations of,~ um,~ heritage.

James: what heritage is. There's world heritage, there's state heritage, there's local heritage, then there's heritage [00:36:00] conservation areas, and then within the heritage conservation areas, there are. Contributory items, neutral items, detracting items. ~Um, ~all of these things are fleshed out in policies. ~Um, ~there are ways forward.

James: There are, things that you put more weight on and there are things that you put less weight on. ~Um, ~so ~ um,~ I'd describe it as,~ um,~ sometimes a hurdle to approvals, but perhaps right. Rightly so. In, in your view, Chris.

CB: I don't know if you're aware of the, there's a application in,~ uh,~ Mossman, I think it's 65 MOS Street. And,~ um,~ when I sort of looked at this, it was basically, I thought it was a house, but I think of these, actually a block of units, but it's a very low rise block of units.

CB: ~Um. ~It's like an, I think it's eight stories apartment block and it's a few streets back from the main street and that street just has houses. so, you know, it's a state significant development as well and you know, it's quite hard for the locals to sort of digest that right.

CB: When. You've got a house probably worth 10 mil plus, [00:37:00] and now around you you've got an eight story, building, like, is this sort of what we're going to start to see? and I think people need to be aware of it, that it's coming. Like, is this you know, you can't fight change.

CB: 'cause if it's changing, it's coming. Right? But these are the things we're gonna start to see.

James: I think absolutely we're going to see change. That's where we're at. ~Um, ~the Min's government, democratically elected by the people of New South Wales have introduced state policies on what, essentially they were voted into Parliament four. that's where we're at. ~Um, ~and there are 171 areas in respect of the low to mid-rise that are gonna see change.

James: and so what I said before in terms of planning, the controls are a component of what sets the future character of these areas. ~Um.~

CB: And that changes, right? Like, so that changes the value of every single property there, right? So, some people will be,~ uh,~ empathetic to that. Some people will be like, well, you know, it's, you've got 10 million house in Mossman. That's okay. But it does change and it also changes.

CB: Like, do you wanna live in Mossman anymore? you know, like if you were always [00:38:00] wanted to live here 'cause it was calm and it was quiet and it was private and it was, but now do I want that anymore? And like, yeah, okay. It's 'cause there's more cars on the road. And so I think it, really affects the livability of the suburb.

CB: Like it could still be great design, lots of stuff, and do you really wanna be in a construction site? 'cause this is like. They're not fun. I mean, your house Reno, your neighbor renovating is not fun. But if you're getting a six, eight story apartment are happening all around you, do you really wanna live in that?

CB: So do you think these are some of the things that it's gonna happen? It's gonna really, revalue properties because, you know, in and out zones cause it affects livability, right?

James: Absolutely, and I think, ~um. ~I'll have a plug here, but if you are one of those landowners and, you are a little unsure about what's happening around you, I mean, that's the point in time where you should be probably seeking professional advice,~ um,~ from consultants to understand exactly how things may look around you in the near term and the longterm to inform some of the decisions.

James: Like you say, Chris, am I staying here to be a part of this change or do I have other options? It's nice to have options. Some people don't. That's really unfair.

Veronica: ~um, ~So are you suggesting that [00:39:00] that's legal advice that these people need at this point of time? cause someone who is a planning,~ uh,~ specialist will actually be able to give them ideas about what is coming because that is something that, you know, I've talked about on. Other episodes, I've got huge empathy for people who are caught in this limbo land. You know, they've, bought, established themselves and set up their families, and sure, somebody who can't afford a 10 million home Muslim might be, you know, have zero,~ uh,~ empathy for them. But they're human beings who happen to have done well in life, and that's what they've. You know, where they've chosen to, put down their roots. I find that really, really harsh and it's not just in those expensive areas, it's, this is across the board, like you say, a hundred over a hundred town centers where this is, this is applies. It's gonna disrupt a lot of people's lives. So it. Someone who lives in Mossburg can afford to get legal advice. Someone who lives in, I don't know, Blacktown or somewhere like that, may not be able to afford that. So how do people, I guess, go through that process of working out what's coming, what do I fight, what Donner fight and, you know, avoid making crazy, silly decisions [00:40:00] that really will affect them long term.

James: I might answer that question saying not everyone will require legal advice at that very start of that questioning process. ~Um. ~Obviously the department itself has extensive,~ um, uh, ~parts of its website, which hopefully are able to be read by these types of people and so that,~ um,~ an initial digestion,~ um,~ can occur otherwise.

James: ~Um, ~town planners are really probably the first,~ um,~ I think, ~um. ~Town planners, um, we're working with every day of the week. ~Um, ~they're super resourceful. They've got boots on the ground. some specialize in certain areas. ~Um, ~and I expect that they would be readily,~ um, um, ~be able to be located by that.

CB: ~Uh, ~but I think, yeah, if you are buying in these areas or you, you already own, or your parents are in there, or your family or your friends, and you know, I think it's one of those times where you've gotta be making decisions, right? You've gotta be. You know, considering options rather than, you know, your head in the sand and just hoping it just sort of goes away.

CB: I feel like it's, you've gotta be factoring this into your decisions,~ um, uh, ~because it does, you know, have a huge [00:41:00] impact on, on your prices. And it's not all over Sydney, right? Like obviously I'm on the beaches, right? you know, we've got, we only got the bus, no train, and so they've sort of got away with it a little bit, you know, uh, but I think it's just important to understand like where. Your pocket is,~ um,~

Veronica: hugely widespread. My, my house is in one of those zones, you know, like a, I live in a conservation area. the house across the lane from me is heritage listed. So, ~um, ~it's a heritage item. So. but that doesn't mean that it won't necessarily happen to my door might ne get knocked on or the neighbors or whatever.

Veronica: So it, it's certainly widespread and it's something that, that we do need to be pointing people to. Okay. And that, look, that's a great. Tip around town planners as well as as a resource and perhaps, you know, you a bunch of neighbors together and contact one and have a session. I mean, that could be a cost effective way of getting some advice too. ~Um, ~James, have you got a property Dumbo for us? 'cause I'm sure you've come across many in your career.

James: ~Um, ~thought I'd, I'd be a bit more broader. ~Um, ~maybe giving a couple of tips to maybe some of your, clients potentially,~ um,~ guys, which,~ um,~ I [00:42:00] thought I, I have two. ~Um, ~the first is when buying a site, ~um. ~I think, and if you have de ~um, ~aspirations for development on the site,~ um,~ something that's regularly overlooked or often overlooked that ~um, ~I need to fix is the slope of the site is super important in respect of how your stormwater design is going to work.

James: Okay? So in simple terms, if your site slopes to the street. It should be regular, somewhat simple for your stormwater to drain to the council asset in your street. If your site slopes away from the street, gravity will take the water away from.

Veronica: you gotta pump it back up.

James: And funny you say that, Veronica, local councils generally do not like pump out systems. ~Um. ~That's something that we are stuck with at the moment. There might be a shift as we move forward over a couple of years, but local councils are, have a hard time relying on these pumps, which often break, often result in flooding,~ um,~ et tcs.

James: from my perspective, maybe when buying a house, as I said, [00:43:00] to be honest, my aspiration have a good hard think about the slope of the land. But if you are on those properties that slope away from the land, then we need to have a think about how we're gonna get stormwater off that site.

Veronica: And I'll be thinking if I've got one sloping to the street that my storm water's not a problem, but the house behind me, which might be higher than my house. What if their pump breaks and there's a flood and it come, I'll get overland flow over my property. So these are all very, very important things to consider when buying a buying a home.

Veronica: That's for sure.

James: A hundred percent. ~Um, ~the next one is,~ uh,~ if you are buying a,~ um,~ property,~ uh,~ with a development consent attached to it. And, then your aspirations are ultimately to deliver,~ um,~ that approved development. a couple of things to remember. Please be careful that a development consent is timed. It must be physically commenced within the time specified in that development consent.

James: If you do not physically commence that development, consent within that time, by one day, the development consent will lapse. Full [00:44:00] stop. ~Um. ~So that's important. Please keep an eye on that.

Veronica: what, what constitutes a significant commencement,

James: I tell you what, Morron, I've written that advice many, many, many

Veronica: ~uh, ~that you have?

James: But another thing to just, one more thing to be aware of is if you buy the house, it's got a development consent on it. ~Um, ~you want to live in the house, but you wanna make some modifications to the approved development, often that's the case. ~Um. ~If you have a modification application approved,~ um,~ achieving those modifications, my point is,~ um,~ the modification, the date that the modification application was approved will not reset or extend by way of right the period in which you must,~ um,~ commence the development consent.

James: So be careful.

Veronica: That's a good one. So a section 96 you're talking about, which is a modification,~ um,~ that it still, if, if it was five years from the day it was approved, it's deadline for commencement remains the same.

CB: you know, the idea that definitely, you know, they paid more because they had the approval. We're talking in these more premium suburbs and ~um, ~life has just, not let them build or they thought, and then that clock's ticking [00:45:00] and then it gets to a point where someone else can't probably start it.

CB: And so basically they just lose the value, right? Like it's gone. Like that's laps and they have to reapply and councils. And, and it, just because it was approved doesn't mean that it's gonna get reapproved, right? Or just because your Navy did something doesn't mean you are gonna get it approved.

CB: Like there's a lot of sort of myths, I guess, that people just naturally assume. And yeah, it can catch you out.

James: Correct. We'll, we'll go, we'll go straight back through the rigorous planning regime once again, if that's where we're headed.

CB: James, it's, it's a very good topic, this one. ~Um. ~You know, some people might be like, oh, well they talking so much about it, you know, but I, I do think it's, you know, a big topic in this year. ~Um, ~and I do think it's a canary in the coal mine thing. You know, I do think it's like, it's an, an example that could happen in, Brisbane, in Melbourne, you know?

CB: And,~ um,~ while it's only happening in 2026 in these suburbs. Like over time prices and costs are all changing and feasibilities are shifting. And who's to say it doesn't start to become much more widespread across the city. And ~um, ~you [00:46:00] know, and I think it's, you can start to plan for that, particularly if,~ um,~ yeah, if you think it might affect you.

CB: And also I think you made a good point around stormwater there, because I think if you start to get some, advice on it, you might say, well, look, my box. Really not at advertising for a developer. Like it's just what are the last blocks they're gonna want, or it's super desirable. It's really a key part of it.

CB: And you know, I need to potentially take advantage of this because I could get a lot more multiple of my sale price if I sold it to a developer because it's the missing piece they really need. ~Um, ~and so, yeah, I think, um.~ um. ~Getting that understanding and just accepting what it is. 'cause sometimes you don't want to hear the truth.

CB: ~Um, ~is the hard part.

Veronica: Thank you so much. That was great.

James: Thanks guys. Cheers.

Veronica Morgan: If you have a question that you'd like us to answer in an upcoming q and a episode, you can send us a voicemail or written question via the website. The elephant in the room.com au. Or you can email us directly at questions at the elephant in the room.com

Veronica Morgan: au.

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