1 01:00:00,416 --> 01:00:01,916 Well, we have to look at our 2 01:00:01,916 --> 01:00:05,541 foundational document, our constitution, the Bible. 3 01:00:06,458 --> 01:00:08,041 And it makes it so clear that 4 01:00:08,041 --> 01:00:09,916 these two things are two kingdoms. 5 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:11,708 They don't mix and the end of what 6 01:00:11,708 --> 01:00:12,875 They don't mix and the end of what 7 01:00:12,875 --> 01:00:15,583 Constantine started in the 1500s wasn't great. 8 01:00:16,041 --> 01:00:18,916 It ain't going to be good if we do it now. 9 01:00:19,708 --> 01:00:23,666 And I think we're actually experiencing something right now 10 01:00:23,666 --> 01:00:26,000 where Christians are trying to make 11 01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,708 that happen and it's going to be a disaster. 12 01:00:35,583 --> 01:00:38,708 All right, well, it's an honor to do this. 13 01:00:38,708 --> 01:00:41,000 I don't think I've ever interviewed both 14 01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,416 you, Dean Taylor, and you, Stephen Russell, at 15 01:00:43,416 --> 01:00:45,625 the same time in more of a roundtable discussion. 16 01:00:46,625 --> 01:00:47,500 But this is really exciting. 17 01:00:47,791 --> 01:00:50,333 Just for some reference, we're doing 18 01:00:50,333 --> 01:00:53,041 another project here at Anabaptist Perspectives, 19 01:00:53,041 --> 01:00:55,708 a documentary series on the origins of 20 01:00:55,708 --> 01:00:58,125 the Anabaptism and all of that, which we'll 21 01:00:58,125 --> 01:00:59,208 have linked and so forth. 22 01:00:59,375 --> 01:01:03,416 We wanted to have a conversation about things relating to 23 01:01:03,416 --> 01:01:04,958 that and the issues that were 24 01:01:04,958 --> 01:01:07,500 involved with the beginnings of the Anabaptist movement. 25 01:01:08,500 --> 01:01:10,291 And we're recording this in 2025. 26 01:01:10,625 --> 01:01:12,875 So we're right at the 500th year 27 01:01:12,875 --> 01:01:15,541 since the Anabaptism started, in 1525. 28 01:01:16,666 --> 01:01:22,250 So the big question I have for both of you is, do the 29 01:01:22,250 --> 01:01:23,541 debates that were happening around 30 01:01:23,666 --> 01:01:26,250 the Reformation time and that the Anabaptists were 31 01:01:26,250 --> 01:01:29,458 changing their views on and writing 32 01:01:29,458 --> 01:01:31,000 all this stuff and so forth, do 33 01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,041 those debates still matter today? 34 01:01:33,958 --> 01:01:36,791 And if so, how does it relate to our churches today? 35 01:01:37,708 --> 01:01:39,791 Basically, why should we care about 36 01:01:39,791 --> 01:01:41,333 the disagreements they had way back when? 37 01:01:41,666 --> 01:01:42,666 So Mr. Russell. 38 01:01:42,666 --> 01:01:43,375 You want to start us off. 39 01:01:44,250 --> 01:01:49,583 Well, one of the things that's important to me is I think 40 01:01:49,583 --> 01:01:52,500 that after the Reformation—there 41 01:01:52,541 --> 01:01:55,583 are two things that have really shaped the 42 01:01:55,583 --> 01:01:58,041 modern world and there are other things, but 43 01:01:58,625 --> 01:02:03,083 the Reformation itself set the Western world in a certain 44 01:02:03,083 --> 01:02:05,708 direction and so did the Enlightenment. 45 01:02:06,833 --> 01:02:10,500 And I think both of those things have pushed us more 46 01:02:10,500 --> 01:02:13,333 towards becoming hyper-individualistic. 47 01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:18,000 And so I think that one of the things that 48 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:22,958 I really hope I can encourage people to do 49 01:02:23,208 --> 01:02:26,583 is to recognize how the modern and 50 01:02:26,583 --> 01:02:29,458 postmodern world and way of thinking has shaped us. 51 01:02:30,041 --> 01:02:35,375 And we need to go back where we were still thinking in a 52 01:02:35,375 --> 01:02:38,583 way that was more aware of there's 53 01:02:38,583 --> 01:02:39,791 something transcendental. 54 01:02:40,208 --> 01:02:43,208 But our world has—the Western world has 55 01:02:43,208 --> 01:02:47,625 become, if not intellectually recognizing 56 01:02:47,833 --> 01:02:50,041 it, it's become materialistic. 57 01:02:50,333 --> 01:02:51,833 It's lost the transcendental. 58 01:02:52,458 --> 01:02:55,458 And so we can go back to a time, the Reformation, when they 59 01:02:55,458 --> 01:02:57,000 actually believed there's really 60 01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:58,791 a God and this really matters. 61 01:02:58,791 --> 01:03:00,958 And unfortunately, they killed each other because of that. 62 01:03:01,500 --> 01:03:02,166 That's a bad thing. 63 01:03:02,875 --> 01:03:05,291 But they actually believe this. 64 01:03:05,583 --> 01:03:07,416 And I think a lot of us modern 65 01:03:07,416 --> 01:03:09,458 Christians, we talk about God. 66 01:03:09,916 --> 01:03:14,625 But I don't know if we aren't acting more out of a 67 01:03:14,625 --> 01:03:18,583 non-transcendental kind of mindset, 68 01:03:18,958 --> 01:03:20,541 kind of a materialistic mindset. 69 01:03:20,833 --> 01:03:22,041 And we've got to do this. 70 01:03:22,541 --> 01:03:25,541 So I think going back to the Reformation and what the 71 01:03:25,541 --> 01:03:27,458 Church did before that can be very 72 01:03:27,458 --> 01:03:33,333 helpful because I think we've bought into something even 73 01:03:33,333 --> 01:03:35,375 without—always without recognizing 74 01:03:35,625 --> 01:03:35,666 it. 75 01:03:36,250 --> 01:03:38,000 So that's where history comes in. 76 01:03:39,125 --> 01:03:42,791 We bought into an approach to life that 77 01:03:42,791 --> 01:03:46,125 doesn't call for a real awareness of God. 78 01:03:46,666 --> 01:03:48,625 So I think that is one reason to go 79 01:03:48,625 --> 01:03:50,625 back while they still did believe that. 80 01:03:51,166 --> 01:03:55,458 Now, part of the place that we're at now 81 01:03:55,458 --> 01:03:58,208 came out of all of the disruption and all 82 01:03:58,208 --> 01:03:59,500 of the fighting and killing 83 01:03:59,500 --> 01:04:02,083 that happened in the Reformation. 84 01:04:02,791 --> 01:04:06,500 So there's some actual blame on the Reformation for us 85 01:04:06,500 --> 01:04:08,500 becoming individualistic and pulling 86 01:04:08,583 --> 01:04:10,083 back from the transcendental. 87 01:04:10,833 --> 01:04:14,333 But it's there that they still believe that. 88 01:04:14,791 --> 01:04:16,750 Everyone basically believe that very deeply. 89 01:04:17,500 --> 01:04:19,708 And so I think that can be helpful for 90 01:04:19,708 --> 01:04:22,791 us evaluating where we're at right now. 91 01:04:23,166 --> 01:04:28,916 Are we more like the non-believer in a way we think? 92 01:04:29,541 --> 01:04:32,833 Or is there a way to move away from that? 93 01:04:32,833 --> 01:04:35,250 And I think learning some of this stuff can help us there. 94 01:04:36,458 --> 01:04:36,916 What would you like to add? 95 01:04:37,500 --> 01:04:40,500 I remember when I was getting ready to do a class with 96 01:04:40,500 --> 01:04:42,083 ancient history and I was doing 97 01:04:42,166 --> 01:04:46,500 Greek and taking students to Athens and reading through 98 01:04:46,500 --> 01:04:50,083 Herodotus and some of these, Thucydides 99 01:04:50,083 --> 01:04:50,500 and that. 100 01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:52,125 And I remember I was really in the 101 01:04:52,125 --> 01:04:53,958 middle of them, reading that and everything. 102 01:04:53,958 --> 01:04:56,208 And at the same time, right around that 103 01:04:56,208 --> 01:04:58,000 time period, I went to the Sugar Creek Fair. 104 01:04:59,833 --> 01:05:00,458 I remember. 105 01:05:00,833 --> 01:05:02,541 So I'm reading the Thucydides and Herodotus 106 01:05:02,541 --> 01:05:05,583 and I'm showing up to Sugar Creek, Ohio in 107 01:05:05,583 --> 01:05:06,333 a little city fair. 108 01:05:07,250 --> 01:05:10,666 And as I'm there, I couldn't help but ponder all these 109 01:05:10,666 --> 01:05:13,916 sacrifices and assemblies that the 110 01:05:13,916 --> 01:05:15,000 ancient Greeks had. 111 01:05:15,625 --> 01:05:18,250 And then comparing it to I'm here at this Sugar Creek Fair. 112 01:05:19,083 --> 01:05:21,166 But if there was one thing I thought that would be 113 01:05:21,166 --> 01:05:25,750 categorically different is how secular 114 01:05:25,750 --> 01:05:26,500 we are. 115 01:05:27,708 --> 01:05:30,708 That in every culture up into the day, this is going to 116 01:05:30,708 --> 01:05:31,583 what you said, what you made me 117 01:05:31,583 --> 01:05:33,041 think of this, is that there would have 118 01:05:33,041 --> 01:05:35,541 been this sacrifice to this and that, God, that 119 01:05:35,583 --> 01:05:37,833 and this guy would have been doing something weird, but 120 01:05:37,833 --> 01:05:38,916 he'd been doing it in the sense 121 01:05:38,916 --> 01:05:40,000 of to Zeus or whatever. 122 01:05:40,208 --> 01:05:45,041 But now we are just remarkably secular and we almost have 123 01:05:45,041 --> 01:05:47,083 to put in our mind what you're 124 01:05:47,083 --> 01:05:47,916 saying there. 125 01:05:47,916 --> 01:05:49,625 And I think that's profound what you said there. 126 01:05:50,250 --> 01:05:52,541 It's that putting yourself in the 127 01:05:52,541 --> 01:05:57,083 ancient mind is that, is the recognition. 128 01:05:57,416 --> 01:06:01,625 And so when they talk about it and they meant this stuff. 129 01:06:02,291 --> 01:06:06,625 I remember when I went years ago to on a tour like similar 130 01:06:06,625 --> 01:06:09,791 to this in Amsterdam and we were 131 01:06:09,791 --> 01:06:10,708 with an archivist. 132 01:06:10,708 --> 01:06:12,250 This is way back in 2010 or so. 133 01:06:12,958 --> 01:06:15,291 And the guy was running it was an atheist. 134 01:06:15,625 --> 01:06:18,958 You know, I remember he was telling us all 135 01:06:18,958 --> 01:06:21,500 this stuff about the Mennonites and all this 136 01:06:21,500 --> 01:06:23,375 thing and ... was there, you 137 01:06:23,375 --> 01:06:25,208 know, and he's getting all upset. 138 01:06:25,458 --> 01:06:27,875 You know, he's like so at first he said, well, you all 139 01:06:27,875 --> 01:06:28,875 this, you know, all this if you must 140 01:06:28,875 --> 01:06:29,416 be a Mennonite. 141 01:06:29,833 --> 01:06:30,666 I'm not a Mennonite. 142 01:06:30,666 --> 01:06:33,750 He said, well, I mean, you must be a Christian. 143 01:06:34,083 --> 01:06:35,958 I'm not a Christian. 144 01:06:35,958 --> 01:06:37,000 He said, you're an atheist. 145 01:06:37,875 --> 01:06:40,125 And it was like you could tell ... in his innocence and 146 01:06:40,125 --> 01:06:42,166 everything was like, whoa, how 147 01:06:42,166 --> 01:06:42,708 can that even be? 148 01:06:42,708 --> 01:06:45,333 And he said, well, we believe these things and amen we do. 149 01:06:46,041 --> 01:06:47,541 And so it's not just empty history. 150 01:06:48,375 --> 01:06:52,708 It's not just things left, you know, that tapping in. 151 01:06:52,708 --> 01:06:53,416 That was good, Stephen. 152 01:06:53,583 --> 01:06:56,208 I think tapping into that is profound. 153 01:06:57,583 --> 01:06:58,541 And the reality of that and 154 01:06:58,541 --> 01:07:00,791 that we do believe Christ has come. 155 01:07:00,791 --> 01:07:02,750 We do believe he's given us the word of God. 156 01:07:02,750 --> 01:07:04,125 We do believe that he wants his 157 01:07:04,125 --> 01:07:06,125 kingdom to be established on this earth. 158 01:07:06,666 --> 01:07:09,291 And yeah, let's drink those waters where they're there. 159 01:07:09,875 --> 01:07:10,041 Yeah. 160 01:07:10,750 --> 01:07:15,666 And I would like to give a little advertisement for two 161 01:07:15,666 --> 01:07:17,666 authors that could be helpful in this. 162 01:07:18,416 --> 01:07:19,583 One of them is C.S. Lewis. 163 01:07:20,250 --> 01:07:24,500 And if you read his autobiography, he says very clearly, I 164 01:07:24,500 --> 01:07:26,750 started as a complete atheist. 165 01:07:27,250 --> 01:07:30,125 He moved towards belief in something transcendental. 166 01:07:30,708 --> 01:07:33,583 And then he says the spirit dragged him kicking and 167 01:07:33,583 --> 01:07:35,375 screaming into the, he didn't want to 168 01:07:35,375 --> 01:07:35,666 convert. 169 01:07:35,916 --> 01:07:38,541 But, and so he went from being what I 170 01:07:38,541 --> 01:07:42,041 would call a modern man, a modern thinker to he 171 01:07:42,041 --> 01:07:45,125 said of himself, I'm, I'm pre-modern in how I think. 172 01:07:45,416 --> 01:07:47,000 And I think that he could give us 173 01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:49,333 some help in that as well as G.K. 174 01:07:49,625 --> 01:07:56,000 Chesterton, who also was, he believed in what God was doing. 175 01:07:56,625 --> 01:08:01,000 And he, he, he foresaw so much of 176 01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,875 where the Western world was going. 177 01:08:04,166 --> 01:08:07,958 Hadn't gotten there yet in the early 1900s, but he saw 178 01:08:07,958 --> 01:08:09,708 where it was going and gave us 179 01:08:09,708 --> 01:08:10,333 a big warning. 180 01:08:10,666 --> 01:08:12,083 And sometimes when I read him, I 181 01:08:12,083 --> 01:08:13,625 feel like this man was a prophet. 182 01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:14,208 Yeah. 183 01:08:14,541 --> 01:08:14,750 Yeah. 184 01:08:14,916 --> 01:08:16,500 And think of what we're doing that he said, you know, the 185 01:08:16,500 --> 01:08:18,875 whole orthodoxy work, it were 186 01:08:19,291 --> 01:08:21,916 getting in a boat and we're discovering England and 187 01:08:21,916 --> 01:08:23,583 thinking that we're creating our, and 188 01:08:23,583 --> 01:08:24,916 we're discovering it's already there. 189 01:08:24,916 --> 01:08:27,625 And it's kind of like our path into Europe here is that 190 01:08:27,625 --> 01:08:30,000 digging into the ancient, the 191 01:08:30,333 --> 01:08:32,625 unchangeable, the faith that was there 192 01:08:32,625 --> 01:08:34,666 kind of goes with his whole concept too. 193 01:08:34,875 --> 01:08:35,000 Yeah. 194 01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:35,708 That's, that's amazing. 195 01:08:36,666 --> 01:08:36,875 Yeah. 196 01:08:37,125 --> 01:08:40,041 So, so to drill into it a bit more, the one we're talking 197 01:08:40,041 --> 01:08:41,541 about these debates that were 198 01:08:41,541 --> 01:08:43,500 happening in the reformation, and you start 199 01:08:43,500 --> 01:08:45,291 reading about these things, it gets pretty 200 01:08:45,416 --> 01:08:45,666 wild. 201 01:08:46,416 --> 01:08:47,666 Because people, like you were saying, they 202 01:08:47,666 --> 01:08:50,083 took this stuff really seriously and you get 203 01:08:50,083 --> 01:08:54,041 the sense that they felt the supernatur, the layer between 204 01:08:54,041 --> 01:08:55,708 the material, what you see world 205 01:08:55,708 --> 01:08:57,708 and the supernatural was hardly even there. 206 01:08:57,708 --> 01:08:59,125 Like it was just like the supernatural 207 01:08:59,125 --> 01:09:01,083 was just ready to break in at any moment. 208 01:09:01,083 --> 01:09:01,291 Yeah. 209 01:09:01,291 --> 01:09:01,500 Right. 210 01:09:01,791 --> 01:09:03,583 And so it really is a big deal to them. 211 01:09:04,333 --> 01:09:06,458 Tell me about some of the debates that were happening here. 212 01:09:06,666 --> 01:09:09,000 And I'm thinking specifically around the Anabaptists, like 213 01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:11,125 why you obviously have the Protestant 214 01:09:11,208 --> 01:09:13,541 Reformation is happening and Luther and all of these things, 215 01:09:14,083 --> 01:09:15,708 but the Anabaptists are doing 216 01:09:15,791 --> 01:09:17,500 something different here. 217 01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:20,666 What were the things that they were pointing at as like, 218 01:09:20,666 --> 01:09:22,250 that's not, that needs to change. 219 01:09:22,250 --> 01:09:22,708 It's not right. 220 01:09:23,208 --> 01:09:24,291 What specifically, what are 221 01:09:24,291 --> 01:09:25,208 the debates we're talking about? 222 01:09:25,708 --> 01:09:27,166 Well first I'd want to say they 223 01:09:27,166 --> 01:09:29,083 didn't disagree with everyone completely. 224 01:09:29,083 --> 01:09:30,041 I think so. 225 01:09:30,958 --> 01:09:33,958 There's Trinitarian, the Orthodox Anabaptists or the 226 01:09:33,958 --> 01:09:36,000 evangelical Anabaptists are as Orthodox 227 01:09:36,833 --> 01:09:39,541 about the Trinity as a Catholic or a Protestant. 228 01:09:41,208 --> 01:09:43,208 So there were a lot of things where they agreed. 229 01:09:43,541 --> 01:09:45,458 I think it's important to recognize that. 230 01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:51,041 But then what I, part of the reason I am where I am is they 231 01:09:51,041 --> 01:09:53,500 recognize that the church had 232 01:09:53,500 --> 01:09:56,208 lost its concept of how to form the church. 233 01:09:56,916 --> 01:10:00,208 You form it by preaching the gospel to people who can 234 01:10:00,208 --> 01:10:02,541 understand, helping them see their 235 01:10:02,541 --> 01:10:05,416 own need and then calling them 236 01:10:05,416 --> 01:10:06,708 to repentance and conversion. 237 01:10:07,291 --> 01:10:09,875 And then you, that forms a special, and then through 238 01:10:09,875 --> 01:10:11,791 baptism, you form a special community 239 01:10:13,375 --> 01:10:18,000 that recognizes there's a lifestyle that goes with this. 240 01:10:18,500 --> 01:10:21,000 And both of those things clash with both 241 01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:23,708 the Catholics and the Protestants because they 242 01:10:23,708 --> 01:10:27,791 had brought together the secular, the social, the 243 01:10:27,791 --> 01:10:30,583 governmental I should say, and the religious. 244 01:10:31,083 --> 01:10:32,416 And the Anabaptists said that 245 01:10:32,416 --> 01:10:34,958 doesn't, most of them said it doesn't work. 246 01:10:35,541 --> 01:10:37,083 In fact, it's our problem right now. 247 01:10:38,083 --> 01:10:41,291 Now, just wrote, and the reason it's the 248 01:10:41,291 --> 01:10:44,541 problem is because they stopped forming the 249 01:10:44,541 --> 01:10:45,458 church the right way. 250 01:10:45,458 --> 01:10:46,583 Are you really a Christian? 251 01:10:47,458 --> 01:10:52,291 And in the Schleitheim Confession of Faith, Sattler points 252 01:10:52,291 --> 01:10:53,833 out in the first article that 253 01:10:53,833 --> 01:10:57,333 the chief abomination of the Pope was infant baptism. 254 01:10:57,333 --> 01:10:59,416 That's the root of the problem and 255 01:10:59,416 --> 01:11:00,750 the Protestants didn't change it. 256 01:11:01,250 --> 01:11:04,541 So I think they saw clearly what the problem was. 257 01:11:04,791 --> 01:11:06,500 That didn't mean that everything else was wrong. 258 01:11:07,500 --> 01:11:07,708 Yeah. 259 01:11:08,208 --> 01:11:11,375 So infant baptism is a specific tangible one you could, 260 01:11:11,625 --> 01:11:14,375 like that was a huge division point. 261 01:11:14,750 --> 01:11:15,791 And the other thing that 262 01:11:15,791 --> 01:11:18,333 everybody was, so that always came up. 263 01:11:18,333 --> 01:11:21,666 And the other thing that always came up was the Lord's 264 01:11:21,666 --> 01:11:24,291 Supper and the Anabaptists, I would 265 01:11:24,333 --> 01:11:27,458 say, recognize that we have to 266 01:11:27,458 --> 01:11:28,833 recognize the body of Christ. 267 01:11:28,833 --> 01:11:31,875 It even says that in 1 Corinthians 11, and 268 01:11:31,875 --> 01:11:33,666 they recognized it as the people that were 269 01:11:33,666 --> 01:11:35,000 gathered to partake. 270 01:11:35,583 --> 01:11:38,958 And so there's something, it's not just symbolic, we are 271 01:11:38,958 --> 01:11:40,875 actually the physical body of Christ 272 01:11:41,083 --> 01:11:41,291 here. 273 01:11:42,041 --> 01:11:45,500 And so we're recognizing that the source of grace is from 274 01:11:45,500 --> 01:11:47,666 God, but it comes to me through 275 01:11:47,666 --> 01:11:48,708 my brothers and sisters. 276 01:11:49,458 --> 01:11:53,958 And so they also had a lot of conflicts with that. 277 01:11:54,500 --> 01:11:56,250 Wasn't that one of the big issues 278 01:11:56,250 --> 01:11:59,125 specifically for Menno Simons as a Catholic priest? 279 01:11:59,625 --> 01:11:59,958 Oh yeah. 280 01:12:00,166 --> 01:12:03,000 The transubstantiation issue of the Catholic Church that, 281 01:12:03,541 --> 01:12:04,708 well, first off, describe a little 282 01:12:04,750 --> 01:12:07,875 bit of transubstantiation just define that and then like 283 01:12:07,875 --> 01:12:09,625 some of his pick with that specific 284 01:12:09,666 --> 01:12:10,250 issue there. 285 01:12:10,750 --> 01:12:13,541 Well, very early on, I think within the first year of his 286 01:12:13,541 --> 01:12:17,000 being ordained a priest, he wondered 287 01:12:17,250 --> 01:12:21,333 as he was, the main job of a priest, the main way to bring 288 01:12:21,333 --> 01:12:24,500 grace to his people and to give 289 01:12:24,500 --> 01:12:27,708 them the opportunity to receive Jesus is communion. 290 01:12:28,333 --> 01:12:32,125 And he began to wonder, is this bread and wine really 291 01:12:32,125 --> 01:12:33,166 becoming the body and blood of 292 01:12:33,166 --> 01:12:33,375 Christ? 293 01:12:34,500 --> 01:12:38,416 That's the transubstantiation that the Catholics believe 294 01:12:38,416 --> 01:12:39,958 and the Orthodox believe that the 295 01:12:39,958 --> 01:12:43,000 bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ. 296 01:12:43,625 --> 01:12:46,041 The Lutherans believe that the real body 297 01:12:46,041 --> 01:12:48,166 of Christ comes into the bread and wine. 298 01:12:48,625 --> 01:12:49,791 The bread and wine is still there. 299 01:12:51,708 --> 01:12:55,375 Calvin believed that spiritually you receive Christ and 300 01:12:55,375 --> 01:12:57,500 Zwingli said it's just a symbol. 301 01:12:58,208 --> 01:13:00,541 So those were the categories that were out there. 302 01:13:01,041 --> 01:13:02,083 And I'm going to say there were like 303 01:13:02,083 --> 01:13:04,666 oceans of ink probably spilled on this, right? 304 01:13:04,833 --> 01:13:05,375 More than anything. 305 01:13:05,958 --> 01:13:07,125 And blood too, right? 306 01:13:08,083 --> 01:13:09,958 This was a huge deal. 307 01:13:10,708 --> 01:13:12,666 There's so much writing from all 308 01:13:12,666 --> 01:13:13,833 of these different parties involved. 309 01:13:14,583 --> 01:13:15,791 And then of course, Menno Simons wrote 310 01:13:15,791 --> 01:13:17,750 about this a lot and he goes through this whole 311 01:13:18,041 --> 01:13:19,916 process of, is this real? 312 01:13:20,583 --> 01:13:21,875 This transubstantiation thing. 313 01:13:21,875 --> 01:13:23,208 Anyway, continue on with that then 314 01:13:23,208 --> 01:13:25,375 because that was a main point for him initially. 315 01:13:25,625 --> 01:13:25,875 Yes. 316 01:13:26,083 --> 01:13:28,541 But then the second crisis of faith is he 317 01:13:28,541 --> 01:13:35,375 hears about a man in his area being executed 318 01:13:35,500 --> 01:13:37,666 because of a second baptism. 319 01:13:38,166 --> 01:13:40,500 He said, I didn't know of a second baptism. 320 01:13:40,750 --> 01:13:44,291 So he looks at the scripture and he becomes convinced of 321 01:13:44,291 --> 01:13:45,666 what is the most important point, 322 01:13:45,666 --> 01:13:46,791 how you form a church. 323 01:13:47,916 --> 01:13:49,750 You don't form it by infant baptism. 324 01:13:50,125 --> 01:13:53,000 You form it by getting people who actually 325 01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:56,291 understand who they are and then see from 326 01:13:56,291 --> 01:14:00,791 the scriptures, the preaching of God's word, what they are 327 01:14:00,791 --> 01:14:03,166 in God's eyes and then how God 328 01:14:03,166 --> 01:14:07,458 has provided a rescue from that. 329 01:14:08,041 --> 01:14:10,625 And then you form a church by these people coming together. 330 01:14:11,500 --> 01:14:13,541 So that's the first thing, although it's the second thing 331 01:14:13,541 --> 01:14:15,500 that he stumbled on, that Menno 332 01:14:15,500 --> 01:14:17,041 stumbled on. 333 01:14:17,500 --> 01:14:17,791 Yeah. 334 01:14:18,083 --> 01:14:19,208 Anything you'd like to add on this? 335 01:14:19,291 --> 01:14:19,583 Yes, good. 336 01:14:20,708 --> 01:14:23,291 You're asking the question, do these debates still matter? 337 01:14:25,041 --> 01:14:28,916 And I agree with Stephen that fortunately most of the 338 01:14:28,916 --> 01:14:33,333 things we agreed with and like, for 339 01:14:33,333 --> 01:14:34,875 instance, describing themselves 340 01:14:34,875 --> 01:14:36,833 within the apostles creed was common. 341 01:14:37,166 --> 01:14:37,541 Oh, absolutely. 342 01:14:37,833 --> 01:14:40,041 The Hutterites did this with Peter Riedemann's work 343 01:14:40,041 --> 01:14:43,208 explicitly going through the apostles 344 01:14:43,291 --> 01:14:44,625 creed and many of the different 345 01:14:44,625 --> 01:14:46,750 confessions were worked in that way. 346 01:14:47,541 --> 01:14:48,083 So that's good. 347 01:14:48,291 --> 01:14:49,708 And I'm really thankful for that to be part 348 01:14:49,708 --> 01:14:52,375 of that ancient tradition in the catholicism 349 01:14:52,583 --> 01:14:56,833 with a small C of being that they didn't strip that off. 350 01:14:57,625 --> 01:15:02,833 On the other hand, what they did do in that the idea of 351 01:15:02,833 --> 01:15:06,208 faith and the idea of following 352 01:15:06,208 --> 01:15:09,583 Jesus, I do think is very important and pertinent today. 353 01:15:10,916 --> 01:15:14,708 In the sacramental concept, yeah, one of the things that 354 01:15:14,708 --> 01:15:17,000 they were common to fight against 355 01:15:17,125 --> 01:15:22,250 was what the Catholics and even some of the reformers would 356 01:15:22,250 --> 01:15:23,625 have taught, but the reformers 357 01:15:23,625 --> 01:15:25,083 did go against this concept. 358 01:15:25,708 --> 01:15:27,750 It was ex opera operato, which means 359 01:15:27,750 --> 01:15:29,500 by the work, the thing is happening. 360 01:15:30,250 --> 01:15:34,000 So in other words, you could have a priest without faith 361 01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:37,333 technically go through the motions 362 01:15:37,416 --> 01:15:39,875 because he's properly ordained through apostolic succession 363 01:15:39,875 --> 01:15:42,000 and this church performing something 364 01:15:42,041 --> 01:15:45,458 that would give grace and would give it to someone apart 365 01:15:45,458 --> 01:15:46,833 from faith in both the priest 366 01:15:46,916 --> 01:15:47,458 or the believer. 367 01:15:48,833 --> 01:15:49,125 Oh, wow. 368 01:15:49,125 --> 01:15:49,500 It's happening. 369 01:15:49,958 --> 01:15:51,125 It's ex opera operato. 370 01:15:51,125 --> 01:15:52,208 By the work, it's happening. 371 01:15:52,666 --> 01:15:54,000 They pushed hard against this. 372 01:15:54,708 --> 01:15:59,041 So the idea of faith and everything was so 373 01:15:59,041 --> 01:16:01,625 important that the sacraments need faith. 374 01:16:01,625 --> 01:16:04,000 So like for instance, you have Pilgram Marpeck arguing 375 01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:07,666 against, he said, provide all the semantics 376 01:16:07,750 --> 01:16:10,875 on all these different levels of different 377 01:16:10,875 --> 01:16:13,166 trans-substantiation, con-substantiation, and 378 01:16:13,875 --> 01:16:14,416 all this type of thing. 379 01:16:15,125 --> 01:16:16,875 In 1 Corinthians, it says that what you're 380 01:16:16,875 --> 01:16:19,458 doing when you come together, it's not the 381 01:16:19,458 --> 01:16:20,041 Lord's Supper. 382 01:16:21,083 --> 01:16:24,750 And so your life, your community, you're not getting the 383 01:16:24,750 --> 01:16:26,375 grace ex opera, you're not getting 384 01:16:26,375 --> 01:16:27,125 it automatically. 385 01:16:27,708 --> 01:16:29,375 And that's the scripture you're ignoring. 386 01:16:29,791 --> 01:16:31,250 And that's a part of the conversation that 387 01:16:31,250 --> 01:16:33,791 on sacramental theology today that I think 388 01:16:33,791 --> 01:16:36,333 the Anabaptists have something very profound to say. 389 01:16:36,708 --> 01:16:39,375 And this idea of it being more than just 390 01:16:39,375 --> 01:16:42,666 the real presence in the bread in the gathered 391 01:16:42,958 --> 01:16:46,833 real presence in a theosis kind of way amongst the gathered 392 01:16:46,833 --> 01:16:49,250 community, it's powerful stuff. 393 01:16:49,875 --> 01:16:50,583 And that was brought up. 394 01:16:50,583 --> 01:16:51,333 And I think that's also 395 01:16:51,333 --> 01:16:52,875 something that needs to be said today. 396 01:16:53,583 --> 01:16:57,500 But with the Jesus following things, I'm so glad that 397 01:16:57,500 --> 01:16:58,541 people aren't killing each other 398 01:16:58,583 --> 01:16:59,958 for the most part these days. 399 01:17:01,041 --> 01:17:02,916 Yeah, because that happened a lot. 400 01:17:02,916 --> 01:17:03,583 It happened a lot. 401 01:17:03,583 --> 01:17:05,208 I mean, and C.S. Lewis talked about that. 402 01:17:05,208 --> 01:17:07,791 If you think someone's a witch, you've burned them. 403 01:17:07,833 --> 01:17:08,916 C.S. Lewis makes the point. 404 01:17:09,333 --> 01:17:10,791 Yeah, it's kind of what you do. 405 01:17:10,916 --> 01:17:11,791 But here's the thing. 406 01:17:12,583 --> 01:17:17,208 Some churches have formally repented of 407 01:17:17,208 --> 01:17:17,708 Some churches have formally repented of 408 01:17:17,708 --> 01:17:20,541 some of that theology that was backed it. 409 01:17:20,541 --> 01:17:22,500 I think Rome has to some degree, apologize. 410 01:17:23,166 --> 01:17:25,125 The Swiss Reformed have done that. 411 01:17:25,125 --> 01:17:26,583 I mean, explicitly, there's a plaque there. 412 01:17:26,583 --> 01:17:29,125 They talk about it when you're there in Zurich. 413 01:17:29,666 --> 01:17:30,500 But not everyone. 414 01:17:31,041 --> 01:17:33,125 And I would say that here's my worry. 415 01:17:34,166 --> 01:17:39,458 The same theology, given the same situation, will very 416 01:17:39,458 --> 01:17:40,875 likely create the same result. 417 01:17:41,666 --> 01:17:43,125 We have different situations now. 418 01:17:43,125 --> 01:17:44,041 We have different environment. 419 01:17:44,041 --> 01:17:45,000 We have a very tolerant. 420 01:17:45,291 --> 01:17:47,500 But notice how quickly things go crazy. 421 01:17:48,666 --> 01:17:52,916 I mean, remember, World War II was just not in my own 422 01:17:52,916 --> 01:17:55,583 father and grandfather's lifetime. 423 01:17:57,958 --> 01:18:00,708 Or at least my father-in-law, at least. 424 01:18:01,333 --> 01:18:02,291 Yeah, my father's too. 425 01:18:03,250 --> 01:18:06,541 So in that only lifetime, you had passionate, 426 01:18:06,833 --> 01:18:10,375 Bible-believing Christians supporting Hitler, 427 01:18:10,958 --> 01:18:11,500 supporting Nazism. 428 01:18:11,833 --> 01:18:13,500 There was something wrong in 429 01:18:13,500 --> 01:18:15,166 the theology that did not change. 430 01:18:15,875 --> 01:18:18,500 The circumstances change, and the result repeated. 431 01:18:19,625 --> 01:18:23,166 So my point is that when we come to face the teachings of 432 01:18:23,166 --> 01:18:25,291 Jesus, and I mean this charitably 433 01:18:25,291 --> 01:18:29,291 as possible, and I mean this also to me, can a person be a 434 01:18:29,291 --> 01:18:31,750 follower of Christ without following 435 01:18:32,166 --> 01:18:32,416 Christ? 436 01:18:33,166 --> 01:18:34,375 I don't know. 437 01:18:35,125 --> 01:18:39,416 It should be something that we go down to the core again. 438 01:18:39,833 --> 01:18:40,708 Let's start with Jesus. 439 01:18:40,916 --> 01:18:42,500 Let's put his plan for humanity 440 01:18:42,500 --> 01:18:44,750 back into action, and let's do it. 441 01:18:45,541 --> 01:18:48,083 And these doctrines do matter. 442 01:18:48,375 --> 01:18:51,208 And when you start to look at some of the 443 01:18:51,208 --> 01:18:52,875 statements and stuff, and you start to see 444 01:18:52,875 --> 01:18:55,750 wars bubble up in our own generations in our own life, 445 01:18:55,750 --> 01:18:57,625 you're like, the reason you're acting 446 01:18:57,625 --> 01:19:00,916 that way is because you don't get that basic point. 447 01:19:01,666 --> 01:19:06,708 And then I get very sad when I see even Anabaptists who 448 01:19:06,708 --> 01:19:08,750 don't understand the fundamentals, and 449 01:19:08,750 --> 01:19:12,250 they're so washed in just American pop evangelicalism that 450 01:19:12,250 --> 01:19:14,416 they don't even know these core basics 451 01:19:14,500 --> 01:19:16,333 of Jesus following teaching. 452 01:19:16,958 --> 01:19:20,500 And certainly they sound like 1942 453 01:19:20,500 --> 01:19:25,000 Mennonites in Germany, and that's a shame. 454 01:19:25,708 --> 01:19:26,958 So that's why I think this matters. 455 01:19:27,250 --> 01:19:28,958 I think that the arguments still matter, 456 01:19:28,958 --> 01:19:31,125 and we still need to say, okay, I'm glad. 457 01:19:31,166 --> 01:19:32,833 Some churches have publicly repented of this. 458 01:19:33,041 --> 01:19:33,250 Amen. 459 01:19:33,375 --> 01:19:33,833 Keep it up. 460 01:19:33,833 --> 01:19:34,250 Keep going. 461 01:19:35,208 --> 01:19:36,500 And there are many things we have publicly 462 01:19:36,500 --> 01:19:38,541 repented of, or maybe even more public, but 463 01:19:38,916 --> 01:19:40,833 nevertheless, I think the arguments still matter. 464 01:19:41,250 --> 01:19:44,083 We still need Jesus's cure for humanity be placed. 465 01:19:45,250 --> 01:19:50,625 And just tacked on in an esoteric, speculative theology 466 01:19:50,625 --> 01:19:52,791 kind of way is not what Jesus, I think, 467 01:19:52,791 --> 01:19:53,000 want. 468 01:19:53,500 --> 01:19:55,458 So the challenge that the Anabaptists had, 469 01:19:55,458 --> 01:19:57,583 let's put this stuff to practice, I think, 470 01:19:57,583 --> 01:19:58,416 needs to be said again. 471 01:20:00,333 --> 01:20:03,791 Okay, so I have to ask them what 472 01:20:03,791 --> 01:20:06,041 sparked the changes, like 500 years ago? 473 01:20:06,416 --> 01:20:09,875 So what were the things, these were pretty 474 01:20:09,875 --> 01:20:13,375 clearly radical changes, and it was a big 475 01:20:13,375 --> 01:20:15,708 deal, and you're describing all these different debates 476 01:20:15,708 --> 01:20:18,083 that were happening around transubstantiation, 477 01:20:18,333 --> 01:20:20,166 say or this or that, or infant baptism. 478 01:20:21,208 --> 01:20:25,291 What was the initial piece that got this started? 479 01:20:25,875 --> 01:20:27,375 Why did those early Anabaptists take that 480 01:20:27,375 --> 01:20:30,291 initial step back and say, "Wait, something's 481 01:20:30,291 --> 01:20:31,041 got to change here?" 482 01:20:31,458 --> 01:20:32,541 And that's a huge question. 483 01:20:32,916 --> 01:20:35,041 Because of our grandfather Erasmus. 484 01:20:36,500 --> 01:20:41,791 You might want to call Grebel our father, but Erasmus is 485 01:20:41,791 --> 01:20:44,416 the man who put together the first 486 01:20:44,583 --> 01:20:48,250 published Greek New Testament, and people 487 01:20:48,250 --> 01:20:50,166 started reading and seeing what the original 488 01:20:50,250 --> 01:20:54,000 said, and it sparked a lot of discussion. 489 01:20:55,208 --> 01:20:56,000 Whether it's Luther or 490 01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:59,708 Zwingli, we know they all got what... 491 01:21:00,666 --> 01:21:04,750 See, Erasmus didn't just publish the Greek New Testament. 492 01:21:04,750 --> 01:21:08,541 He also put out some things that said, "Obviously, the 493 01:21:08,541 --> 01:21:10,916 early church followed the Great Commission 494 01:21:11,416 --> 01:21:12,375 to form the church." 495 01:21:12,708 --> 01:21:14,041 And then he looks at the book of 496 01:21:14,041 --> 01:21:15,541 Acts and shows how that happened. 497 01:21:16,583 --> 01:21:18,583 And we've kind of dropped that. 498 01:21:18,958 --> 01:21:19,625 We've lost that. 499 01:21:20,541 --> 01:21:23,625 And Luther discussed it, thought about it. 500 01:21:23,750 --> 01:21:24,458 So did Zwingli. 501 01:21:24,958 --> 01:21:27,666 They even talked about maybe starting a little church, 502 01:21:28,041 --> 01:21:30,416 specifically Luther, a little church 503 01:21:30,416 --> 01:21:32,125 in the big church of those people 504 01:21:32,125 --> 01:21:33,833 that really have committed to Christ. 505 01:21:34,750 --> 01:21:37,458 And so I would just say, if you want to... 506 01:21:37,791 --> 01:21:42,375 Well, the Catholics said about Erasmus, 507 01:21:42,375 --> 01:21:44,875 that you laid the egg that Luther hatched. 508 01:21:45,541 --> 01:21:49,000 So I think if you want to just make it simple, Erasmus. 509 01:21:50,291 --> 01:21:51,958 And that came from the text and 510 01:21:51,958 --> 01:21:53,458 the Bible coming out in the Greek. 511 01:21:54,250 --> 01:21:56,500 Wait, there's a Greek text to the Scriptures. 512 01:21:56,791 --> 01:21:58,083 I thought it was just the Vulgate. 513 01:21:58,083 --> 01:22:01,333 How dare you even look at what the Greeks said. 514 01:22:01,833 --> 01:22:03,083 And also the world's going crazy 515 01:22:03,083 --> 01:22:04,333 for Europe, for Western Europe. 516 01:22:04,625 --> 01:22:06,458 I mean, it was bad enough to have the plagues. 517 01:22:07,125 --> 01:22:10,791 Now you've got Constantinople falling in 1453. 518 01:22:11,375 --> 01:22:13,083 You've got Jihad coming against 519 01:22:13,083 --> 01:22:15,375 Europe taking different places. 520 01:22:16,541 --> 01:22:17,250 You've got now... 521 01:22:17,916 --> 01:22:20,041 And because of that, the kings that could 522 01:22:20,041 --> 01:22:23,041 have just dealt with Protestantism now had 523 01:22:23,083 --> 01:22:24,500 to fight two battles. 524 01:22:25,666 --> 01:22:29,541 Charles V had to fight both the Protestants rising up and 525 01:22:29,541 --> 01:22:31,000 the Jihad coming against them. 526 01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:32,708 And then now the Anabaptists are in there. 527 01:22:33,291 --> 01:22:34,375 It's a perfect storm. 528 01:22:35,625 --> 01:22:37,541 And a lot of things was happening 529 01:22:37,541 --> 01:22:39,291 and people were asking questions. 530 01:22:39,666 --> 01:22:41,000 And when you have these plagues, we 531 01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:42,416 saw a little bit of this in the COVID. 532 01:22:42,916 --> 01:22:45,291 People start to get introspective when all 533 01:22:45,291 --> 01:22:47,625 you got family members dying and all that. 534 01:22:47,625 --> 01:22:48,041 And that was just... 535 01:22:48,500 --> 01:22:49,000 I mean, I saw... 536 01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:51,750 Have you ever seen that chart that shows the comparison of 537 01:22:51,750 --> 01:22:52,833 the people that died in COVID 538 01:22:52,958 --> 01:22:57,333 versus the Black Death or the crazy differences? 539 01:22:57,333 --> 01:22:58,166 Yeah, it's not even close. 540 01:22:58,458 --> 01:22:58,666 Yeah. 541 01:22:58,666 --> 01:23:01,166 And so when you're seeing people that are 542 01:23:01,166 --> 01:23:03,041 already like you started off with saying that 543 01:23:03,083 --> 01:23:05,833 we're spiritual and we believe God is behind all these 544 01:23:05,833 --> 01:23:07,541 things, we're asking questions. 545 01:23:08,041 --> 01:23:08,750 What's wrong? 546 01:23:10,500 --> 01:23:12,083 And so there was a lot of things that 547 01:23:12,083 --> 01:23:13,541 looked like the end of the world was happening. 548 01:23:13,833 --> 01:23:15,875 And yeah, it tipped it. 549 01:23:16,875 --> 01:23:17,083 Yeah. 550 01:23:17,625 --> 01:23:17,833 Yeah. 551 01:23:19,416 --> 01:23:19,916 We used to... 552 01:23:20,166 --> 01:23:21,708 A couple of us have used the word radical. 553 01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:24,166 And often in modern world, that 554 01:23:24,166 --> 01:23:25,958 means just overthrow everything. 555 01:23:26,833 --> 01:23:28,375 And these people were radical. 556 01:23:28,666 --> 01:23:30,666 The word itself means go to the root. 557 01:23:31,625 --> 01:23:32,750 And I think we should... 558 01:23:32,958 --> 01:23:34,583 Christians should be radical in that sense. 559 01:23:34,833 --> 01:23:36,666 Not as in radical burn it all down. 560 01:23:36,666 --> 01:23:39,333 Not as burn it all down because as I've already said, the 561 01:23:39,333 --> 01:23:41,500 Catholic influence is very clear 562 01:23:41,500 --> 01:23:44,125 both in Protestantism and in the Anabaptists. 563 01:23:44,416 --> 01:23:45,500 There was good there. 564 01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:48,291 And they didn't burn it all down. 565 01:23:48,708 --> 01:23:50,666 You mentioned the Creed, the Apostles Creed. 566 01:23:51,666 --> 01:23:55,958 Meno, in his writings, very specifically says, "I believe 567 01:23:55,958 --> 01:23:57,916 the 12 articles and I believe 568 01:23:57,916 --> 01:23:58,708 the 18 articles." 569 01:23:58,708 --> 01:24:00,125 And what he means there is the 570 01:24:00,125 --> 01:24:01,875 Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed. 571 01:24:02,166 --> 01:24:02,375 Yeah. 572 01:24:02,458 --> 01:24:03,458 He quotes from them. 573 01:24:03,458 --> 01:24:03,750 Yes. 574 01:24:04,041 --> 01:24:06,875 So it's not like I'm dumping the whole 575 01:24:06,875 --> 01:24:09,666 faith, but you guys aren't committed. 576 01:24:09,666 --> 01:24:10,541 You're not living it. 577 01:24:11,250 --> 01:24:13,333 And that's what you were saying. 578 01:24:13,541 --> 01:24:15,041 That's where the real issue came in. 579 01:24:15,500 --> 01:24:18,958 Are you willing to commit as an adult and live it out? 580 01:24:19,708 --> 01:24:22,291 And then that's also why the ban became important. 581 01:24:22,291 --> 01:24:24,458 The Protestants and Catholics killed us 582 01:24:24,458 --> 01:24:27,250 if we wouldn't commit to their approach. 583 01:24:27,708 --> 01:24:29,875 And the Anabaptists said there does need to be some sense 584 01:24:29,875 --> 01:24:31,916 of discipling or I mean, disciplining. 585 01:24:32,541 --> 01:24:33,958 And so they said, "That's the ban. 586 01:24:33,958 --> 01:24:35,583 We always want a person to be able to come 587 01:24:35,583 --> 01:24:39,000 back if we tell him he has strayed away." 588 01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:39,166 Amen. 589 01:24:39,958 --> 01:24:42,166 Now, that's an interesting philosophical difference. 590 01:24:42,208 --> 01:24:44,333 We want the person to be able to come back if he's strayed 591 01:24:44,333 --> 01:24:45,541 away, whereas the other groups 592 01:24:45,541 --> 01:24:46,958 are like, "We will execute you." 593 01:24:46,958 --> 01:24:47,166 Yeah. 594 01:24:48,083 --> 01:24:49,083 And that's what you brought up in 595 01:24:49,083 --> 01:24:51,333 Schleitheim that our limit is the ban. 596 01:24:51,708 --> 01:24:52,083 Yeah. 597 01:24:52,083 --> 01:24:53,083 Where you guys have execution. 598 01:24:53,375 --> 01:24:54,833 We don't go any further than that. 599 01:24:55,416 --> 01:24:55,958 It's interesting. 600 01:24:56,291 --> 01:24:57,166 It's kind of sad. 601 01:24:57,166 --> 01:24:57,875 Talk about the time. 602 01:24:57,875 --> 01:24:58,208 Wow. 603 01:24:58,583 --> 01:25:02,041 That Schleitheim Confession, the discussions in Strasbourg 604 01:25:02,041 --> 01:25:03,666 from Michael Sattler, early Dutch 605 01:25:03,666 --> 01:25:06,791 Confessions had articles on not killing heretics. 606 01:25:08,500 --> 01:25:09,083 Man, that's... 607 01:25:09,083 --> 01:25:09,958 I mean, it's amazing that 608 01:25:09,958 --> 01:25:10,833 that's a part of the conversation. 609 01:25:11,166 --> 01:25:13,708 What a bizarre world. 610 01:25:13,708 --> 01:25:15,875 It's almost like culture shock. 611 01:25:15,875 --> 01:25:16,583 But they did believe. 612 01:25:16,833 --> 01:25:17,000 They believed. 613 01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:17,875 That's part of it. 614 01:25:18,416 --> 01:25:22,875 You know, if I'm a Catholic, if I'm the bishop, and you're 615 01:25:22,875 --> 01:25:25,125 spouting, whether it's Protestantism 616 01:25:25,125 --> 01:25:28,500 or Anabaptism, and he's listening, I'm worried you're not 617 01:25:28,500 --> 01:25:29,833 just the only one going to hell. 618 01:25:30,291 --> 01:25:31,875 You're trying to drag him to hell with you. 619 01:25:32,958 --> 01:25:33,166 Yeah, yeah. 620 01:25:33,208 --> 01:25:34,416 You have to root evil out. 621 01:25:34,666 --> 01:25:35,458 Yeah, you have to root... 622 01:25:36,291 --> 01:25:36,916 They're wrong. 623 01:25:36,916 --> 01:25:37,583 They're taking the wrong... 624 01:25:38,291 --> 01:25:40,833 Once again, it's that church and state getting intertwined 625 01:25:40,833 --> 01:25:43,250 with each other that makes the 626 01:25:43,250 --> 01:25:45,583 church go the direction it does. 627 01:25:45,583 --> 01:25:46,500 You know, and you brought up a couple 628 01:25:46,500 --> 01:25:48,375 times already this concept of the community. 629 01:25:49,041 --> 01:25:50,916 You got to understand how radically different that is. 630 01:25:51,250 --> 01:25:52,500 They thought as a state. 631 01:25:53,583 --> 01:25:55,500 You were baptized as a baby into the state. 632 01:25:56,416 --> 01:25:58,083 The state and the church were together, 633 01:25:58,083 --> 01:26:00,250 and that's been like that for a long time. 634 01:26:00,958 --> 01:26:04,250 I might be having this wrong, but if I remember reading 635 01:26:04,250 --> 01:26:07,541 this correctly, you baptized the infant, 636 01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:10,750 and now, oh, now they're in the record of this... 637 01:26:11,500 --> 01:26:14,625 Now you're liable for tax and tithes and all this stuff. 638 01:26:14,625 --> 01:26:14,666 Everything's in there. 639 01:26:14,666 --> 01:26:15,291 You're a citizen. 640 01:26:15,625 --> 01:26:17,625 Yeah, it was almost like you're a citizen, pay for your... 641 01:26:17,958 --> 01:26:18,416 Yeah, okay. 642 01:26:18,875 --> 01:26:20,083 So now if someone was like... 643 01:26:20,083 --> 01:26:22,958 So now you have a church that's gathered as a local 644 01:26:22,958 --> 01:26:26,833 community in faith, that is radically 645 01:26:27,125 --> 01:26:27,500 different. 646 01:26:28,750 --> 01:26:31,208 And they saw this as truly... 647 01:26:31,208 --> 01:26:32,458 So when you're saying, "My brother, my 648 01:26:32,458 --> 01:26:34,625 sister," it meant something to them in a way. 649 01:26:34,916 --> 01:26:37,166 And you were talking about what got me thinking about that 650 01:26:37,166 --> 01:26:38,958 is when you see them talk about 651 01:26:38,958 --> 01:26:40,916 the Apostles' Creed and the passage where 652 01:26:40,916 --> 01:26:41,916 it says, "And we believe in the communion 653 01:26:41,916 --> 01:26:46,000 of the saints," several of them use that word communion in 654 01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:47,333 the Latin and the German sounds 655 01:26:47,333 --> 01:26:48,833 like in the community of saints. 656 01:26:49,291 --> 01:26:51,666 Peter Riedemann specifically says, when he's arguing to 657 01:26:51,666 --> 01:26:53,208 Philip of Hesse and such, he says, 658 01:26:53,791 --> 01:26:56,416 this is the gathering of the 659 01:26:56,416 --> 01:26:59,000 people of God, the communion of saints. 660 01:27:00,250 --> 01:27:03,708 He sees it more physically, more actual in 661 01:27:03,708 --> 01:27:05,875 this world and not being wrapped up in just 662 01:27:05,875 --> 01:27:07,958 to the state or washed into just the state. 663 01:27:08,333 --> 01:27:10,875 It's the gathering of the people of God into a community. 664 01:27:11,416 --> 01:27:12,708 And I think, again, this is something that 665 01:27:12,708 --> 01:27:17,500 Anabaptists are threatened to lose when you 666 01:27:17,500 --> 01:27:19,541 just kind of get your mind so washed 667 01:27:19,541 --> 01:27:21,833 up and it's just about this, the other. 668 01:27:21,833 --> 01:27:26,375 That gathering of the community is an essential tenet. 669 01:27:26,791 --> 01:27:28,000 It's hard to kind of articulate 670 01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:30,541 doctrinally sometime, but it's there. 671 01:27:31,500 --> 01:27:34,166 It's very much there and it's a big difference than the 672 01:27:34,166 --> 01:27:35,833 magisterial and the Catholic Reformation. 673 01:27:37,375 --> 01:27:41,708 And Witten also the enemy love and not fighting back, that 674 01:27:41,708 --> 01:27:42,791 would have been a huge piece that 675 01:27:42,791 --> 01:27:43,833 comes in here as well, right? 676 01:27:44,291 --> 01:27:44,500 Absolutely. 677 01:27:45,583 --> 01:27:49,666 And it's not just enemy love and not fighting back. 678 01:27:52,166 --> 01:27:56,166 The essence of non-resistance is love for everyone. 679 01:27:56,916 --> 01:27:59,708 And I would argue that that is the 680 01:27:59,708 --> 01:28:03,750 motive force behind the Anabaptist evangelism. 681 01:28:04,666 --> 01:28:06,500 You love your neighbor, you love your enemy. 682 01:28:06,500 --> 01:28:07,541 Well, what does that mean? 683 01:28:07,541 --> 01:28:10,375 You tell them about the cure for their problem. 684 01:28:11,125 --> 01:28:16,333 And really, the Catholics were sending out missionaries, 685 01:28:16,333 --> 01:28:17,416 especially after the discovery 686 01:28:17,416 --> 01:28:19,541 of the new world, all over the world. 687 01:28:20,666 --> 01:28:25,125 Even the Calvinists did some, but I think that the fact 688 01:28:25,125 --> 01:28:27,500 that it was in the state church 689 01:28:27,500 --> 01:28:31,333 kind of framework made it something very different. 690 01:28:31,333 --> 01:28:36,500 The Anabaptists were calling people to a relationship to 691 01:28:36,500 --> 01:28:38,666 God that forms this new community. 692 01:28:39,166 --> 01:28:39,916 This is powerful. 693 01:28:40,250 --> 01:28:42,500 I remember one of my favorite quotes by Peter Riedemann, who 694 01:28:42,500 --> 01:28:45,041 at the time they were the Marine 695 01:28:45,041 --> 01:28:46,833 Corps of the Anabaptists in this mission thing you're 696 01:28:46,833 --> 01:28:48,833 talking about and the idea of love being 697 01:28:48,875 --> 01:28:49,125 there. 698 01:28:49,500 --> 01:28:50,458 He has this beautiful quote 699 01:28:50,458 --> 01:28:52,458 where he says, "Love is like fire." 700 01:28:52,458 --> 01:28:53,541 He gives us an analogy. 701 01:28:53,541 --> 01:28:57,000 He says, "Anybody who makes a fire knows that at the very 702 01:28:57,000 --> 01:28:59,000 beginning of the fire, if you 703 01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:01,791 put a big stick on it, it's going to snub it out. 704 01:29:02,666 --> 01:29:05,625 But if you let that fire get really big, you could throw a 705 01:29:05,625 --> 01:29:07,041 whole lot of houses, whatever 706 01:29:07,041 --> 01:29:09,083 you want on there, and it'll just keep burning. 707 01:29:09,625 --> 01:29:10,625 So it is with love. 708 01:29:11,458 --> 01:29:15,000 That if our love is small, small little things make us 709 01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:17,083 offended, and we will argue with each 710 01:29:17,125 --> 01:29:19,291 other or whatever, and it'll snub out the love. 711 01:29:19,291 --> 01:29:22,666 But if we let our love burn, then 712 01:29:22,666 --> 01:29:24,041 we can handle any of these things. 713 01:29:24,250 --> 01:29:26,416 I love the idea of bringing that God's 714 01:29:26,416 --> 01:29:29,583 love and yeah, that's a powerful thought. 715 01:29:29,583 --> 01:29:31,291 The Bruderhof used to publish that. 716 01:29:31,291 --> 01:29:32,166 I don't know if you still do. 717 01:29:33,041 --> 01:29:34,791 Love Is Like a Fire if you want to read that. 718 01:29:34,791 --> 01:29:35,291 It's excellent. 719 01:29:39,083 --> 01:29:41,500 So here we are 500 years later. 720 01:29:43,791 --> 01:29:48,250 What ways, practically speaking, do these conversations, 721 01:29:48,583 --> 01:29:51,708 debates, differences from back 722 01:29:51,708 --> 01:29:54,541 then affect us right now in daily life? 723 01:29:54,958 --> 01:29:56,000 People coming away from the side. 724 01:29:56,000 --> 01:29:57,000 We've already hit some, but 725 01:29:57,000 --> 01:29:58,833 let's try to get real practical here. 726 01:29:59,125 --> 01:30:00,166 What does this look like now? 727 01:30:00,166 --> 01:30:02,458 Because it's not like we're 728 01:30:02,458 --> 01:30:03,500 being threatened with execution. 729 01:30:04,583 --> 01:30:05,500 It's just a totally different 730 01:30:05,500 --> 01:30:06,916 environment that we're in right now. 731 01:30:06,916 --> 01:30:10,541 I'll say this and I hope this doesn't hurt your thing. 732 01:30:11,375 --> 01:30:15,708 For 30 years or 25 years at least, I and 733 01:30:15,708 --> 01:30:18,625 other people, and you Stephen too, have been 734 01:30:18,625 --> 01:30:20,291 preaching things on non-resistance and 735 01:30:20,291 --> 01:30:22,541 such like that and talking about these things. 736 01:30:23,375 --> 01:30:28,875 When I see evangelicals, conservative evangelicals, or I 737 01:30:28,875 --> 01:30:33,208 even see even worse so, Amish, conservative 738 01:30:33,541 --> 01:30:38,958 Anabaptists getting wrapped up in the nationalism and the 739 01:30:38,958 --> 01:30:41,458 patriotism that I see, I'm just broken 740 01:30:41,458 --> 01:30:42,083 hearted. 741 01:30:42,666 --> 01:30:44,375 I think somehow you don't get 742 01:30:44,375 --> 01:30:46,166 the very origin of who you are. 743 01:30:47,083 --> 01:30:52,333 Somehow the Jesus following kingdom building that somehow 744 01:30:52,333 --> 01:30:53,666 we have traded now what we think 745 01:30:53,666 --> 01:30:57,000 we had the answers that we were in Jesus Christ, now do we 746 01:30:57,000 --> 01:30:59,500 really think the state and politics 747 01:30:59,916 --> 01:31:00,833 is going to somehow... 748 01:31:01,083 --> 01:31:01,375 No. 749 01:31:02,083 --> 01:31:02,291 No. 750 01:31:03,208 --> 01:31:05,000 And so yes, it matters. 751 01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:08,416 And let's be reminded that we have a blueprint and it's 752 01:31:08,416 --> 01:31:11,041 easy and the world is not going to 753 01:31:11,041 --> 01:31:11,583 come up with it. 754 01:31:11,583 --> 01:31:12,250 It's not going to be any 755 01:31:12,250 --> 01:31:14,583 different now than it was in any time era. 756 01:31:14,875 --> 01:31:15,166 So yeah. 757 01:31:16,916 --> 01:31:22,583 Well, strangely enough, well, we look at where the 758 01:31:22,583 --> 01:31:26,041 Christian church was in 1500 and with 759 01:31:26,041 --> 01:31:27,416 its entanglement with the 760 01:31:27,416 --> 01:31:29,125 state and we see how bad that was. 761 01:31:30,166 --> 01:31:32,541 The Protestant church didn't do a whole lot better, but 762 01:31:32,541 --> 01:31:35,333 then here in the states, first 763 01:31:35,333 --> 01:31:36,666 the British colonies and then the 764 01:31:36,666 --> 01:31:39,000 states, we didn't have that entanglement. 765 01:31:39,875 --> 01:31:41,208 The last state church was in 766 01:31:41,208 --> 01:31:45,166 Massachusetts and it was disbanded in 1833. 767 01:31:45,875 --> 01:31:48,833 So after that we have no state church, but we still have 768 01:31:48,833 --> 01:31:52,875 this kind of Protestant civil 769 01:31:52,875 --> 01:31:54,416 religion sort of a thing. 770 01:31:55,416 --> 01:31:58,666 And I just can't understand why these people don't see that 771 01:31:58,666 --> 01:32:01,250 in the early church we didn't 772 01:32:01,250 --> 01:32:01,791 have this. 773 01:32:02,083 --> 01:32:05,125 And then from Constantine on, it starts getting more and 774 01:32:05,125 --> 01:32:07,416 more entangled and it didn't go good 775 01:32:07,708 --> 01:32:07,791 places. 776 01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:10,166 Why do we think we're going to do any better? 777 01:32:10,958 --> 01:32:12,500 But we also need to look at... 778 01:32:12,500 --> 01:32:13,333 Now this is something not... 779 01:32:14,375 --> 01:32:15,625 Well, we have to look at our 780 01:32:15,625 --> 01:32:19,250 foundational document, our constitution, the Bible. 781 01:32:20,166 --> 01:32:21,750 And it makes it so clear that 782 01:32:21,750 --> 01:32:23,625 these two things are two kingdoms. 783 01:32:23,708 --> 01:32:28,250 They don't mix and the end of what 784 01:32:28,250 --> 01:32:30,958 Constantine started in the 1500s wasn't great. 785 01:32:31,416 --> 01:32:34,291 It ain't going to be good if we do it now. 786 01:32:35,083 --> 01:32:39,041 And I think we're actually experiencing something right now 787 01:32:39,041 --> 01:32:41,375 where Christians are trying to make 788 01:32:41,375 --> 01:32:44,083 that happen and it's going to be a disaster. 789 01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:46,291 It already is. 790 01:32:46,708 --> 01:32:52,000 Because one of the core issues in 1525 and on when the 791 01:32:52,000 --> 01:32:53,916 early Anabaptist movement is getting 792 01:32:54,708 --> 01:32:55,833 its feet on it, so to speak. 793 01:32:56,166 --> 01:32:58,291 Yeah, you read this stuff and it's just constantly like, 794 01:32:58,291 --> 01:33:00,458 "No, we're trying to pull it away." 795 01:33:00,458 --> 01:33:03,250 Like you're saying that the community of believers versus 796 01:33:03,250 --> 01:33:06,500 the state and how those were inseparable. 797 01:33:06,750 --> 01:33:09,125 They were so to the point where if you're 798 01:33:09,125 --> 01:33:11,583 not part of the way the church is run here, 799 01:33:12,083 --> 01:33:13,666 you don't even fit into society in 800 01:33:13,666 --> 01:33:17,666 any way because this is just how it is. 801 01:33:18,375 --> 01:33:19,750 And yeah, I think you're onto something there. 802 01:33:19,750 --> 01:33:22,708 It does feel like there is a movement or doesn't feel there 803 01:33:22,708 --> 01:33:24,666 is a real movement to try to... 804 01:33:25,083 --> 01:33:27,416 And we say this, that's Americans at least, we can't say 805 01:33:27,416 --> 01:33:28,583 globally, I guess, but trying 806 01:33:28,583 --> 01:33:30,083 to push those back together. 807 01:33:31,041 --> 01:33:33,083 And it's like, you know what? 808 01:33:33,708 --> 01:33:36,000 How this thing started actually does really speak to that. 809 01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:39,166 It's very specifically to that exact issue. 810 01:33:39,166 --> 01:33:40,875 This is not a new one at all. 811 01:33:40,916 --> 01:33:43,333 Same theology given similar circumstances 812 01:33:43,333 --> 01:33:45,958 will very likely create the same results. 813 01:33:46,666 --> 01:33:49,916 Something that I think is more likely to happen than a 814 01:33:49,916 --> 01:33:54,166 resurgence of state church connection 815 01:33:54,166 --> 01:33:55,000 in the states. 816 01:33:55,375 --> 01:33:58,458 I mean, right now, it almost looks like it could happen. 817 01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:02,625 But I think that because of our modernistic and 818 01:34:02,625 --> 01:34:04,333 post-modernistic way of thinking, our 819 01:34:04,333 --> 01:34:07,791 materialistic way of thinking in the West, I think that 820 01:34:07,791 --> 01:34:10,875 what's going to happen is, despite 821 01:34:11,083 --> 01:34:15,041 what's happening presently in the United States with the 822 01:34:15,041 --> 01:34:17,458 political world, I think what's going 823 01:34:17,458 --> 01:34:20,958 to happen is it's already starting to happen. 824 01:34:22,333 --> 01:34:24,208 I can't remember the author, but there's an 825 01:34:24,208 --> 01:34:26,250 author who said we used to have a positive 826 01:34:26,375 --> 01:34:28,916 attitude towards Christianity. 827 01:34:29,291 --> 01:34:31,500 Then for maybe 20 years, like the 828 01:34:31,500 --> 01:34:35,750 1990s, for early 2000s, it was neutral. 829 01:34:36,416 --> 01:34:39,458 And then from 2010 on, there's a growing 830 01:34:39,458 --> 01:34:42,708 negativity towards Christianity in the Western 831 01:34:42,750 --> 01:34:45,250 world and both in Europe and the United States. 832 01:34:45,583 --> 01:34:46,750 I think that's where we're 833 01:34:46,750 --> 01:34:51,041 actually going to have the conflict. 834 01:34:51,375 --> 01:34:52,291 It's going to swing that way. 835 01:34:52,291 --> 01:34:54,791 And I think there are going to be Christians who I already 836 01:34:54,791 --> 01:34:56,125 know there are Christians outside 837 01:34:56,250 --> 01:34:59,416 my tradition who are becoming more and 838 01:34:59,416 --> 01:35:02,916 more open to what the Anabaptist position said 839 01:35:03,000 --> 01:35:06,000 about love of neighbor and things like that. 840 01:35:06,750 --> 01:35:13,250 And now the people who are presently trying to work with 841 01:35:13,250 --> 01:35:15,791 the government, take it over, they may 842 01:35:15,791 --> 01:35:16,833 have a problem there. 843 01:35:16,833 --> 01:35:18,958 They may want to fight against 844 01:35:18,958 --> 01:35:20,916 it, literally fight against it. 845 01:35:20,916 --> 01:35:21,083 Right. 846 01:35:21,125 --> 01:35:23,250 But that's where our challenge is for us is to help 847 01:35:23,250 --> 01:35:26,000 Christians see that's not what we 848 01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:26,541 are called to. 849 01:35:27,083 --> 01:35:28,083 And people can hear that. 850 01:35:28,500 --> 01:35:29,291 I think you're right on it. 851 01:35:29,291 --> 01:35:33,041 When I was first converting in the army and I visited my 852 01:35:33,041 --> 01:35:34,041 first Mennonite, one of my first 853 01:35:34,125 --> 01:35:36,083 Mennonite Churches I ever visited, 854 01:35:36,708 --> 01:35:39,916 And I was there and we were singing and presenting things. 855 01:35:39,916 --> 01:35:43,208 I looked and suddenly I saw on the wall there were these 856 01:35:43,208 --> 01:35:44,875 over in Europe, you know how they have 857 01:35:45,583 --> 01:35:46,625 plaques of all the people that 858 01:35:46,625 --> 01:35:47,625 served during the different wars. 859 01:35:47,625 --> 01:35:47,958 Oh, yeah. 860 01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:51,291 And so I was like, after I went back, here I'm becoming a 861 01:35:51,291 --> 01:35:52,250 conscious objector and going to this 862 01:35:52,250 --> 01:35:53,166 Mennonite church in Germany. 863 01:35:53,416 --> 01:35:55,416 I'm like, so I was talking to this old guy 864 01:35:55,416 --> 01:35:58,791 who was like 70 years old here in 1990, 89. 865 01:36:00,333 --> 01:36:01,916 And I said, so I'm just curious. 866 01:36:01,916 --> 01:36:03,708 I thought you were a non-resistant. 867 01:36:03,958 --> 01:36:06,291 This whole reason I'm even, you know, and he just looked at 868 01:36:06,291 --> 01:36:09,000 me and said, oh, yeah, World War II. 869 01:36:10,625 --> 01:36:11,416 I was a little boy. 870 01:36:12,916 --> 01:36:14,166 He said, I could take you to my 871 01:36:14,166 --> 01:36:17,083 house and I have a barn there. 872 01:36:17,833 --> 01:36:19,666 And my dad, we were raised Quakers, 873 01:36:19,666 --> 01:36:20,791 but then we came into the Mennonites, 874 01:36:20,791 --> 01:36:23,500 He said, but I've left this there, that there was a 875 01:36:23,500 --> 01:36:26,583 painting on our barn that was a symbol to vote for 876 01:36:26,583 --> 01:36:26,833 Nazis. 877 01:36:28,166 --> 01:36:29,583 And he said, I've left it there as a 878 01:36:29,583 --> 01:36:32,708 memory, you know, to remember these things. 879 01:36:33,083 --> 01:36:34,791 And I said, well, how did, you know, we 880 01:36:34,791 --> 01:36:37,708 said, Dean it, it came on us like a revival. 881 01:36:38,916 --> 01:36:40,916 It came on us like, I never forget those words. 882 01:36:40,916 --> 01:36:42,041 It came on us like a revival. 883 01:36:42,541 --> 01:36:44,000 We were just swept into it. 884 01:36:44,666 --> 01:36:46,958 And, but what happened was after that, 885 01:36:47,375 --> 01:36:49,250 people like, so this is Christianity. 886 01:36:50,333 --> 01:36:52,250 I mean, now, you know, the popular 887 01:36:52,250 --> 01:36:54,583 people, it was the conservative Christians. 888 01:36:54,791 --> 01:36:56,125 It was not just the Mennonites, it 889 01:36:56,125 --> 01:36:57,500 was all the conservative evangelical. 890 01:36:57,500 --> 01:36:59,000 The more Bible believing you were, the 891 01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:00,541 more likely you were to go into that. 892 01:37:00,958 --> 01:37:04,541 I mean, you can go to the Berlin church and the reformed 893 01:37:04,541 --> 01:37:06,500 church in Berlin, you've got literally on 894 01:37:06,500 --> 01:37:09,583 the pulpit an etching of Hitler, you know, you've got him 895 01:37:09,583 --> 01:37:13,541 there in the, you know, and so the people 896 01:37:13,541 --> 01:37:16,000 were like, well, what is this? 897 01:37:16,333 --> 01:37:17,000 You know, what is this? 898 01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:18,666 So the reaction then, ever since 899 01:37:18,666 --> 01:37:20,291 then, you've had kind of an agnostic. 900 01:37:21,541 --> 01:37:22,916 I'm worried that what's happening right 901 01:37:22,916 --> 01:37:24,750 now, you could end up with an agnostic. 902 01:37:25,291 --> 01:37:28,500 America, even another level, like what's Christianity? 903 01:37:29,166 --> 01:37:31,583 A bunch of weird, you know, things like that. 904 01:37:32,083 --> 01:37:33,833 Well, this, this is where I think 905 01:37:33,833 --> 01:37:35,708 the Anabaptist understanding of the two 906 01:37:35,708 --> 01:37:37,541 kingdoms is essential and we need to 907 01:37:37,541 --> 01:37:39,666 try to help other Christians see this. 908 01:37:40,833 --> 01:37:43,208 In Hitler's time, you know, Hitler was 909 01:37:43,208 --> 01:37:46,291 saying we have been mistreated and I think the 910 01:37:46,291 --> 01:37:48,416 German nation was after World War I. 911 01:37:48,625 --> 01:37:49,708 I really was. 912 01:37:49,708 --> 01:37:50,166 Yeah, me too. 913 01:37:50,166 --> 01:37:52,208 He, so he had a kind of an argument that 914 01:37:52,208 --> 01:37:54,458 spoke to the heart and, you know, he didn't 915 01:37:54,541 --> 01:37:56,791 start killing people at the beginning. 916 01:37:57,583 --> 01:38:00,166 I think we're in danger of the same thing right here. 917 01:38:01,708 --> 01:38:05,875 There are reasonable issues that are 918 01:38:05,875 --> 01:38:09,958 problematic and we can get sucked in to, 919 01:38:10,250 --> 01:38:11,083 that's what happened there. 920 01:38:11,583 --> 01:38:14,458 I talked to both, not Quaker, but 921 01:38:14,458 --> 01:38:16,791 conservative people who were young, 922 01:38:16,791 --> 01:38:19,333 conservative Anabaptists in Southern 923 01:38:19,333 --> 01:38:22,708 Germany and a real believer up in Northern 924 01:38:22,791 --> 01:38:25,000 Germany, who at the time was a 925 01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:27,708 Lutheran minister when I was talking to him. 926 01:38:28,000 --> 01:38:30,500 He was a young man and he was drafted into Hitler's army. 927 01:38:31,000 --> 01:38:34,375 And these people, all of them told me we 928 01:38:34,375 --> 01:38:37,791 were not treated well and he sounded like 929 01:38:37,791 --> 01:38:42,666 he's bringing us release, a relief maybe is a better word. 930 01:38:43,458 --> 01:38:47,791 And it's only after he got basically 931 01:38:47,791 --> 01:38:49,416 all the power in his hands that he started 932 01:38:49,458 --> 01:38:51,083 doing the really, really bad things. 933 01:38:51,916 --> 01:38:54,958 And people were either cowed or didn't 934 01:38:54,958 --> 01:38:57,166 know it or, well actually some of my German 935 01:38:57,166 --> 01:39:00,291 friends said, we didn't want to know it. 936 01:39:00,291 --> 01:39:00,750 There you go. 937 01:39:01,208 --> 01:39:01,625 There you go. 938 01:39:01,625 --> 01:39:02,708 They said we could have known 939 01:39:02,708 --> 01:39:04,291 it, but we didn't want to know it. 940 01:39:04,291 --> 01:39:05,708 And that's what strikes me as like the 941 01:39:05,708 --> 01:39:08,666 Anabaptists, you know, saying this is not 942 01:39:08,708 --> 01:39:10,541 okay, like pointing out things that like, 943 01:39:10,875 --> 01:39:12,708 we may not want to know that, but it's not 944 01:39:12,750 --> 01:39:13,041 okay. 945 01:39:13,041 --> 01:39:13,666 That's not right. 946 01:39:13,958 --> 01:39:14,125 Yeah. 947 01:39:14,125 --> 01:39:14,916 You know, that's not right. 948 01:39:16,083 --> 01:39:16,291 Wow. 949 01:39:16,791 --> 01:39:18,625 Well, y'all definitely brought it to the 950 01:39:18,625 --> 01:39:21,000 current reality, you know, that we're in. 951 01:39:21,000 --> 01:39:22,875 But no, these are important conversations to have. 952 01:39:23,625 --> 01:39:28,083 And I guess as far as where to leave it here with the 953 01:39:28,083 --> 01:39:29,750 audience is I would encourage 954 01:39:31,333 --> 01:39:33,083 people listening to go back and read some 955 01:39:33,083 --> 01:39:34,541 of this stuff from the early Anabaptists, 956 01:39:34,541 --> 01:39:35,458 like the things they were wrestling 957 01:39:35,458 --> 01:39:36,833 with and the decisions they were making, 958 01:39:36,833 --> 01:39:39,291 especially that extracting the church away 959 01:39:39,291 --> 01:39:43,041 from the state was a real thorny one, you 960 01:39:43,041 --> 01:39:44,500 know, and what they had to go 961 01:39:44,500 --> 01:39:45,875 through and had to suffer for that. 962 01:39:46,458 --> 01:39:47,083 That's significant. 963 01:39:47,500 --> 01:39:47,916 That's significant. 964 01:39:48,333 --> 01:39:50,458 So any closing comments from 965 01:39:50,458 --> 01:39:52,416 either of you as we as we wrap this up? 966 01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:56,833 The simplicity of Christ, you know, again, I go back to 967 01:39:56,833 --> 01:39:58,583 Grebel's point, I believe the 968 01:39:58,583 --> 01:40:00,541 word of God without complicated interpretation. 969 01:40:00,916 --> 01:40:03,083 And out of that, I speak, let's be a people of the Bible 970 01:40:03,083 --> 01:40:04,958 and let's put it into practical 971 01:40:05,000 --> 01:40:07,000 application as a blueprint for humanity 972 01:40:07,000 --> 01:40:09,541 and that the words of Jesus were meant to be 973 01:40:09,541 --> 01:40:10,541 put into practice. 974 01:40:11,250 --> 01:40:14,125 If we can meet there at Jesus in a 975 01:40:14,125 --> 01:40:17,250 practical way, not just a theological way, but a 976 01:40:17,291 --> 01:40:20,208 practical real way of meeting Jesus and 977 01:40:20,208 --> 01:40:22,875 bringing his cure to humanity, I think we'll 978 01:40:22,875 --> 01:40:23,583 see a better world. 979 01:40:23,958 --> 01:40:24,458 I really do. 980 01:40:24,708 --> 01:40:26,041 And I can get behind that message. 981 01:40:26,041 --> 01:40:28,416 I get excited about that message and I pray 982 01:40:28,416 --> 01:40:31,041 for it over all of us and my generations, my 983 01:40:31,041 --> 01:40:33,250 children, my grandchildren, I want them to have that. 984 01:40:34,291 --> 01:40:35,708 I'm not disagreeing with him at all. 985 01:40:35,916 --> 01:40:36,708 He's exactly right. 986 01:40:37,000 --> 01:40:38,333 But then I'm going to point out the 987 01:40:38,333 --> 01:40:41,291 other side, which is these guys didn't burn 988 01:40:41,333 --> 01:40:42,000 everything down. 989 01:40:42,666 --> 01:40:47,750 And we have a tradition that goes all the way to the time 990 01:40:47,750 --> 01:40:50,083 of the resurrection of Jesus and 991 01:40:50,083 --> 01:40:52,708 the ascension and then the 992 01:40:52,708 --> 01:40:55,875 Pentecost when the church started. 993 01:40:56,375 --> 01:41:01,791 And there are good lessons that they wrestled with issues 994 01:41:01,791 --> 01:41:03,958 and we don't have to reinvent 995 01:41:03,958 --> 01:41:04,416 the wheel. 996 01:41:04,791 --> 01:41:11,083 So yes, the commitment idea to Jesus is absolutely premier. 997 01:41:11,833 --> 01:41:18,458 But there were people 2000, 15000. I'm sorry, 2000, 1500 998 01:41:18,458 --> 01:41:20,291 a thousand years ago, 500 years 999 01:41:20,291 --> 01:41:23,625 ago, who were equally committed and they wrestled with 1000 01:41:23,625 --> 01:41:26,875 issues that have shaped the church. 1001 01:41:27,458 --> 01:41:33,875 And so I'm also going to say, let's recognize the heritage 1002 01:41:33,875 --> 01:41:35,875 we've been given and we've got 1003 01:41:35,916 --> 01:41:37,250 to evaluate it. 1004 01:41:37,958 --> 01:41:40,625 Looking at the history of the Reformation can help us with 1005 01:41:40,625 --> 01:41:43,041 that, but let's not just chuck 1006 01:41:43,041 --> 01:41:43,333 it. 1007 01:41:43,625 --> 01:41:43,875 Totally agree. 1008 01:41:44,500 --> 01:41:44,708 Amen. 1009 01:41:44,958 --> 01:41:45,125 Yeah. 1010 01:41:46,458 --> 01:41:46,625 Wow. 1011 01:41:47,125 --> 01:41:51,000 Well, I think that you gave us some things to think about. 1012 01:41:51,375 --> 01:41:52,000 I'm pretty sure. 1013 01:41:52,000 --> 01:41:53,666 I'll be curious what the comments are on this one. 1014 01:41:54,625 --> 01:41:55,833 This is really good. 1015 01:41:55,833 --> 01:41:57,833 This is really important things to wrestle with. 1016 01:41:57,833 --> 01:41:59,541 And I just say that to people listening. 1017 01:41:59,541 --> 01:42:01,541 Like we love to hear from our listeners, 1018 01:42:01,541 --> 01:42:03,541 like what are they thinking and processing and 1019 01:42:03,708 --> 01:42:04,291 wrestling with. 1020 01:42:04,291 --> 01:42:04,833 We want to hear that. 1021 01:42:05,458 --> 01:42:07,708 So put it in the comments or send us an email. 1022 01:42:08,875 --> 01:42:10,500 But yeah, thank you both for sharing today. 1023 01:42:10,500 --> 01:42:11,916 I really appreciate you taking the time. 1024 01:42:12,458 --> 01:42:12,750 You're welcome. 1025 01:42:14,416 --> 01:42:15,875 Thanks for listening to this discussion 1026 01:42:15,875 --> 01:42:18,416 with Dean Taylor and Stephen Russell about 1027 01:42:18,583 --> 01:42:20,000 Reformation debates and the 1028 01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:21,500 origins of the Anabaptist movement. 1029 01:42:22,083 --> 01:42:24,083 As we mentioned briefly in this episode, 1030 01:42:24,083 --> 01:42:26,250 we're doing a documentary series on the 1031 01:42:26,250 --> 01:42:28,000 origins of the Anabaptist movement and 1032 01:42:28,000 --> 01:42:30,541 that's its own YouTube channel and its own 1033 01:42:30,541 --> 01:42:31,000 website. 1034 01:42:31,333 --> 01:42:32,416 You can find all of that links 1035 01:42:32,416 --> 01:42:34,125 down below in the description. 1036 01:42:34,500 --> 01:42:38,333 You can also go to that website at AnabaptistOrigins.org. 1037 01:42:38,666 --> 01:42:41,416 We'll be filming that in June of 2025 that 1038 01:42:41,416 --> 01:42:43,500 we don't have a final release date set yet 1039 01:42:43,500 --> 01:42:45,083 for the entire documentary series. 1040 01:42:45,416 --> 01:42:46,583 So make sure you're subscribed to 1041 01:42:46,583 --> 01:42:48,583 follow along for updates on that project. 1042 01:42:49,250 --> 01:42:50,666 Thanks again for listening and 1043 01:42:50,666 --> 01:42:52,250 we'll catch you in the next episode.