<b>Well, we have to look at our</b>

<b>foundational document, our constitution, the Bible.</b>

<b>And it makes it so clear that</b>

<b>these two things are two kingdoms.</b>

<b>They don't mix and the end of what</b>

<b>They don't mix and the end of what</b>

<b>Constantine started in the 1500s wasn't great.</b>

<b>It ain't going to be good if we do it now.</b>

<b>And I think we're actually experiencing something right now</b>

<b>where Christians are trying to make</b>

<b>that happen and it's going to be a disaster.</b>

<b>All right, well, it's an honor to do this.</b>

<b>I don't think I've ever interviewed both</b>

<b>you, Dean Taylor, and you, Stephen Russell, at</b>

<b>the same time in more of a roundtable discussion.</b>

<b>But this is really exciting.</b>

<b>Just for some reference, we're doing</b>

<b>another project here at Anabaptist Perspectives,</b>

<b>a documentary series on the origins of</b>

<b>the Anabaptism and all of that, which we'll</b>

<b>have linked and so forth.</b>

<b>We wanted to have a conversation about things relating to</b>

<b>that and the issues that were</b>

<b>involved with the beginnings of the Anabaptist movement.</b>

<b>And we're recording this in 2025.</b>

<b>So we're right at the 500th year</b>

<b>since the Anabaptism started, in 1525.</b>

<b>So the big question I have for both of you is, do the</b>

<b>debates that were happening around</b>

<b>the Reformation time and that the Anabaptists were</b>

<b>changing their views on and writing</b>

<b>all this stuff and so forth, do</b>

<b>those debates still matter today?</b>

<b>And if so, how does it relate to our churches today?</b>

<b>Basically, why should we care about</b>

<b>the disagreements they had way back when?</b>

<b>So Mr. Russell.</b>

<b>You want to start us off.</b>

<b>Well, one of the things that's important to me is I think</b>

<b>that after the Reformation—there</b>

<b>are two things that have really shaped the</b>

<b>modern world and there are other things, but</b>

<b>the Reformation itself set the Western world in a certain</b>

<b>direction and so did the Enlightenment.</b>

<b>And I think both of those things have pushed us more</b>

<b>towards becoming hyper-individualistic.</b>

<b>And so I think that one of the things that</b>

<b>I really hope I can encourage people to do</b>

<b>is to recognize how the modern and</b>

<b>postmodern world and way of thinking has shaped us.</b>

<b>And we need to go back where we were still thinking in a</b>

<b>way that was more aware of there's</b>

<b>something transcendental.</b>

<b>But our world has—the Western world has</b>

<b>become, if not intellectually recognizing</b>

<b>it, it's become materialistic.</b>

<b>It's lost the transcendental.</b>

<b>And so we can go back to a time, the Reformation, when they</b>

<b>actually believed there's really</b>

<b>a God and this really matters.</b>

<b>And unfortunately, they killed each other because of that.</b>

<b>That's a bad thing.</b>

<b>But they actually believe this.</b>

<b>And I think a lot of us modern</b>

<b>Christians, we talk about God.</b>

<b>But I don't know if we aren't acting more out of a</b>

<b>non-transcendental kind of mindset,</b>

<b>kind of a materialistic mindset.</b>

<b>And we've got to do this.</b>

<b>So I think going back to the Reformation and what the</b>

<b>Church did before that can be very</b>

<b>helpful because I think we've bought into something even</b>

<b>without—always without recognizing</b>

<b>it.</b>

<b>So that's where history comes in.</b>

<b>We bought into an approach to life that</b>

<b>doesn't call for a real awareness of God.</b>

<b>So I think that is one reason to go</b>

<b>back while they still did believe that.</b>

<b>Now, part of the place that we're at now</b>

<b>came out of all of the disruption and all</b>

<b>of the fighting and killing</b>

<b>that happened in the Reformation.</b>

<b>So there's some actual blame on the Reformation for us</b>

<b>becoming individualistic and pulling</b>

<b>back from the transcendental.</b>

<b>But it's there that they still believe that.</b>

<b>Everyone basically believe that very deeply.</b>

<b>And so I think that can be helpful for</b>

<b>us evaluating where we're at right now.</b>

<b>Are we more like the non-believer in a way we think?</b>

<b>Or is there a way to move away from that?</b>

<b>And I think learning some of this stuff can help us there.</b>

<b>What would you like to add?</b>

<b>I remember when I was getting ready to do a class with</b>

<b>ancient history and I was doing</b>

<b>Greek and taking students to Athens and reading through</b>

<b>Herodotus and some of these, Thucydides</b>

<b>and that.</b>

<b>And I remember I was really in the</b>

<b>middle of them, reading that and everything.</b>

<b>And at the same time, right around that</b>

<b>time period, I went to the Sugar Creek Fair.</b>

<b>I remember.</b>

<b>So I'm reading the Thucydides and Herodotus</b>

<b>and I'm showing up to Sugar Creek, Ohio in</b>

<b>a little city fair.</b>

<b>And as I'm there, I couldn't help but ponder all these</b>

<b>sacrifices and assemblies that the</b>

<b>ancient Greeks had.</b>

<b>And then comparing it to I'm here at this Sugar Creek Fair.</b>

<b>But if there was one thing I thought that would be</b>

<b>categorically different is how secular</b>

<b>we are.</b>

<b>That in every culture up into the day, this is going to</b>

<b>what you said, what you made me</b>

<b>think of this, is that there would have</b>

<b>been this sacrifice to this and that, God, that</b>

<b>and this guy would have been doing something weird, but</b>

<b>he'd been doing it in the sense</b>

<b>of to Zeus or whatever.</b>

<b>But now we are just remarkably secular and we almost have</b>

<b>to put in our mind what you're</b>

<b>saying there.</b>

<b>And I think that's profound what you said there.</b>

<b>It's that putting yourself in the</b>

<b>ancient mind is that, is the recognition.</b>

<b>And so when they talk about it and they meant this stuff.</b>

<b>I remember when I went years ago to on a tour like similar</b>

<b>to this in Amsterdam and we were</b>

<b>with an archivist.</b>

<b>This is way back in 2010 or so.</b>

<b>And the guy was running it was an atheist.</b>

<b>You know, I remember he was telling us all</b>

<b>this stuff about the Mennonites and all this</b>

<b>thing and ... was there, you</b>

<b>know, and he's getting all upset.</b>

<b>You know, he's like so at first he said, well, you all</b>

<b>this, you know, all this if you must</b>

<b>be a Mennonite.</b>

<b>I'm not a Mennonite.</b>

<b>He said, well, I mean, you must be a Christian.</b>

<b>I'm not a Christian.</b>

<b>He said, you're an atheist.</b>

<b>And it was like you could tell ... in his innocence and</b>

<b>everything was like, whoa, how</b>

<b>can that even be?</b>

<b>And he said, well, we believe these things and amen we do.</b>

<b>And so it's not just empty history.</b>

<b>It's not just things left, you know, that tapping in.</b>

<b>That was good, Stephen.</b>

<b>I think tapping into that is profound.</b>

<b>And the reality of that and</b>

<b>that we do believe Christ has come.</b>

<b>We do believe he's given us the word of God.</b>

<b>We do believe that he wants his</b>

<b>kingdom to be established on this earth.</b>

<b>And yeah, let's drink those waters where they're there.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>And I would like to give a little advertisement for two</b>

<b>authors that could be helpful in this.</b>

<b>One of them is C.S. Lewis.</b>

<b>And if you read his autobiography, he says very clearly, I</b>

<b>started as a complete atheist.</b>

<b>He moved towards belief in something transcendental.</b>

<b>And then he says the spirit dragged him kicking and</b>

<b>screaming into the, he didn't want to</b>

<b>convert.</b>

<b>But, and so he went from being what I</b>

<b>would call a modern man, a modern thinker to he</b>

<b>said of himself, I'm, I'm pre-modern in how I think.</b>

<b>And I think that he could give us</b>

<b>some help in that as well as G.K.</b>

<b>Chesterton, who also was, he believed in what God was doing.</b>

<b>And he, he, he foresaw so much of</b>

<b>where the Western world was going.</b>

<b>Hadn't gotten there yet in the early 1900s, but he saw</b>

<b>where it was going and gave us</b>

<b>a big warning.</b>

<b>And sometimes when I read him, I</b>

<b>feel like this man was a prophet.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>And think of what we're doing that he said, you know, the</b>

<b>whole orthodoxy work, it were</b>

<b>getting in a boat and we're discovering England and</b>

<b>thinking that we're creating our, and</b>

<b>we're discovering it's already there.</b>

<b>And it's kind of like our path into Europe here is that</b>

<b>digging into the ancient, the</b>

<b>unchangeable, the faith that was there</b>

<b>kind of goes with his whole concept too.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>That's, that's amazing.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>So, so to drill into it a bit more, the one we're talking</b>

<b>about these debates that were</b>

<b>happening in the reformation, and you start</b>

<b>reading about these things, it gets pretty</b>

<b>wild.</b>

<b>Because people, like you were saying, they</b>

<b>took this stuff really seriously and you get</b>

<b>the sense that they felt the supernatur, the layer between</b>

<b>the material, what you see world</b>

<b>and the supernatural was hardly even there.</b>

<b>Like it was just like the supernatural</b>

<b>was just ready to break in at any moment.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Right.</b>

<b>And so it really is a big deal to them.</b>

<b>Tell me about some of the debates that were happening here.</b>

<b>And I'm thinking specifically around the Anabaptists, like</b>

<b>why you obviously have the Protestant</b>

<b>Reformation is happening and Luther and all of these things,</b>

<b>but the Anabaptists are doing</b>

<b>something different here.</b>

<b>What were the things that they were pointing at as like,</b>

<b>that's not, that needs to change.</b>

<b>It's not right.</b>

<b>What specifically, what are</b>

<b>the debates we're talking about?</b>

<b>Well first I'd want to say they</b>

<b>didn't disagree with everyone completely.</b>

<b>I think so.</b>

<b>There's Trinitarian, the Orthodox Anabaptists or the</b>

<b>evangelical Anabaptists are as Orthodox</b>

<b>about the Trinity as a Catholic or a Protestant.</b>

<b>So there were a lot of things where they agreed.</b>

<b>I think it's important to recognize that.</b>

<b>But then what I, part of the reason I am where I am is they</b>

<b>recognize that the church had</b>

<b>lost its concept of how to form the church.</b>

<b>You form it by preaching the gospel to people who can</b>

<b>understand, helping them see their</b>

<b>own need and then calling them</b>

<b>to repentance and conversion.</b>

<b>And then you, that forms a special, and then through</b>

<b>baptism, you form a special community</b>

<b>that recognizes there's a lifestyle that goes with this.</b>

<b>And both of those things clash with both</b>

<b>the Catholics and the Protestants because they</b>

<b>had brought together the secular, the social, the</b>

<b>governmental I should say, and the religious.</b>

<b>And the Anabaptists said that</b>

<b>doesn't, most of them said it doesn't work.</b>

<b>In fact, it's our problem right now.</b>

<b>Now, just wrote, and the reason it's the</b>

<b>problem is because they stopped forming the</b>

<b>church the right way.</b>

<b>Are you really a Christian?</b>

<b>And in the Schleitheim Confession of Faith, Sattler points</b>

<b>out in the first article that</b>

<b>the chief abomination of the Pope was infant baptism.</b>

<b>That's the root of the problem and</b>

<b>the Protestants didn't change it.</b>

<b>So I think they saw clearly what the problem was.</b>

<b>That didn't mean that everything else was wrong.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>So infant baptism is a specific tangible one you could,</b>

<b>like that was a huge division point.</b>

<b>And the other thing that</b>

<b>everybody was, so that always came up.</b>

<b>And the other thing that always came up was the Lord's</b>

<b>Supper and the Anabaptists, I would</b>

<b>say, recognize that we have to</b>

<b>recognize the body of Christ.</b>

<b>It even says that in 1 Corinthians 11, and</b>

<b>they recognized it as the people that were</b>

<b>gathered to partake.</b>

<b>And so there's something, it's not just symbolic, we are</b>

<b>actually the physical body of Christ</b>

<b>here.</b>

<b>And so we're recognizing that the source of grace is from</b>

<b>God, but it comes to me through</b>

<b>my brothers and sisters.</b>

<b>And so they also had a lot of conflicts with that.</b>

<b>Wasn't that one of the big issues</b>

<b>specifically for Menno Simons as a Catholic priest?</b>

<b>Oh yeah.</b>

<b>The transubstantiation issue of the Catholic Church that,</b>

<b>well, first off, describe a little</b>

<b>bit of transubstantiation just define that and then like</b>

<b>some of his pick with that specific</b>

<b>issue there.</b>

<b>Well, very early on, I think within the first year of his</b>

<b>being ordained a priest, he wondered</b>

<b>as he was, the main job of a priest, the main way to bring</b>

<b>grace to his people and to give</b>

<b>them the opportunity to receive Jesus is communion.</b>

<b>And he began to wonder, is this bread and wine really</b>

<b>becoming the body and blood of</b>

<b>Christ?</b>

<b>That's the transubstantiation that the Catholics believe</b>

<b>and the Orthodox believe that the</b>

<b>bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ.</b>

<b>The Lutherans believe that the real body</b>

<b>of Christ comes into the bread and wine.</b>

<b>The bread and wine is still there.</b>

<b>Calvin believed that spiritually you receive Christ and</b>

<b>Zwingli said it's just a symbol.</b>

<b>So those were the categories that were out there.</b>

<b>And I'm going to say there were like</b>

<b>oceans of ink probably spilled on this, right?</b>

<b>More than anything.</b>

<b>And blood too, right?</b>

<b>This was a huge deal.</b>

<b>There's so much writing from all</b>

<b>of these different parties involved.</b>

<b>And then of course, Menno Simons wrote</b>

<b>about this a lot and he goes through this whole</b>

<b>process of, is this real?</b>

<b>This transubstantiation thing.</b>

<b>Anyway, continue on with that then</b>

<b>because that was a main point for him initially.</b>

<b>Yes.</b>

<b>But then the second crisis of faith is he</b>

<b>hears about a man in his area being executed</b>

<b>because of a second baptism.</b>

<b>He said, I didn't know of a second baptism.</b>

<b>So he looks at the scripture and he becomes convinced of</b>

<b>what is the most important point,</b>

<b>how you form a church.</b>

<b>You don't form it by infant baptism.</b>

<b>You form it by getting people who actually</b>

<b>understand who they are and then see from</b>

<b>the scriptures, the preaching of God's word, what they are</b>

<b>in God's eyes and then how God</b>

<b>has provided a rescue from that.</b>

<b>And then you form a church by these people coming together.</b>

<b>So that's the first thing, although it's the second thing</b>

<b>that he stumbled on, that Menno</b>

<b>stumbled on.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Anything you'd like to add on this?</b>

<b>Yes, good.</b>

<b>You're asking the question, do these debates still matter?</b>

<b>And I agree with Stephen that fortunately most of the</b>

<b>things we agreed with and like, for</b>

<b>instance, describing themselves</b>

<b>within the apostles creed was common.</b>

<b>Oh, absolutely.</b>

<b>The Hutterites did this with Peter Riedemann's work</b>

<b>explicitly going through the apostles</b>

<b>creed and many of the different</b>

<b>confessions were worked in that way.</b>

<b>So that's good.</b>

<b>And I'm really thankful for that to be part</b>

<b>of that ancient tradition in the catholicism</b>

<b>with a small C of being that they didn't strip that off.</b>

<b>On the other hand, what they did do in that the idea of</b>

<b>faith and the idea of following</b>

<b>Jesus, I do think is very important and pertinent today.</b>

<b>In the sacramental concept, yeah, one of the things that</b>

<b>they were common to fight against</b>

<b>was what the Catholics and even some of the reformers would</b>

<b>have taught, but the reformers</b>

<b>did go against this concept.</b>

<b>It was ex opera operato, which means</b>

<b>by the work, the thing is happening.</b>

<b>So in other words, you could have a priest without faith</b>

<b>technically go through the motions</b>

<b>because he's properly ordained through apostolic succession</b>

<b>and this church performing something</b>

<b>that would give grace and would give it to someone apart</b>

<b>from faith in both the priest</b>

<b>or the believer.</b>

<b>Oh, wow.</b>

<b>It's happening.</b>

<b>It's ex opera operato.</b>

<b>By the work, it's happening.</b>

<b>They pushed hard against this.</b>

<b>So the idea of faith and everything was so</b>

<b>important that the sacraments need faith.</b>

<b>So like for instance, you have Pilgram Marpeck arguing</b>

<b>against, he said, provide all the semantics</b>

<b>on all these different levels of different</b>

<b>trans-substantiation, con-substantiation, and</b>

<b>all this type of thing.</b>

<b>In 1 Corinthians, it says that what you're</b>

<b>doing when you come together, it's not the</b>

<b>Lord's Supper.</b>

<b>And so your life, your community, you're not getting the</b>

<b>grace ex opera, you're not getting</b>

<b>it automatically.</b>

<b>And that's the scripture you're ignoring.</b>

<b>And that's a part of the conversation that</b>

<b>on sacramental theology today that I think</b>

<b>the Anabaptists have something very profound to say.</b>

<b>And this idea of it being more than just</b>

<b>the real presence in the bread in the gathered</b>

<b>real presence in a theosis kind of way amongst the gathered</b>

<b>community, it's powerful stuff.</b>

<b>And that was brought up.</b>

<b>And I think that's also</b>

<b>something that needs to be said today.</b>

<b>But with the Jesus following things, I'm so glad that</b>

<b>people aren't killing each other</b>

<b>for the most part these days.</b>

<b>Yeah, because that happened a lot.</b>

<b>It happened a lot.</b>

<b>I mean, and C.S. Lewis talked about that.</b>

<b>If you think someone's a witch, you've burned them.</b>

<b>C.S. Lewis makes the point.</b>

<b>Yeah, it's kind of what you do.</b>

<b>But here's the thing.</b>

<b>Some churches have formally repented of</b>

<b>Some churches have formally repented of</b>

<b>some of that theology that was backed it.</b>

<b>I think Rome has to some degree, apologize.</b>

<b>The Swiss Reformed have done that.</b>

<b>I mean, explicitly, there's a plaque there.</b>

<b>They talk about it when you're there in Zurich.</b>

<b>But not everyone.</b>

<b>And I would say that here's my worry.</b>

<b>The same theology, given the same situation, will very</b>

<b>likely create the same result.</b>

<b>We have different situations now.</b>

<b>We have different environment.</b>

<b>We have a very tolerant.</b>

<b>But notice how quickly things go crazy.</b>

<b>I mean, remember, World War II was just not in my own</b>

<b>father and grandfather's lifetime.</b>

<b>Or at least my father-in-law, at least.</b>

<b>Yeah, my father's too.</b>

<b>So in that only lifetime, you had passionate,</b>

<b>Bible-believing Christians supporting Hitler,</b>

<b>supporting Nazism.</b>

<b>There was something wrong in</b>

<b>the theology that did not change.</b>

<b>The circumstances change, and the result repeated.</b>

<b>So my point is that when we come to face the teachings of</b>

<b>Jesus, and I mean this charitably</b>

<b>as possible, and I mean this also to me, can a person be a</b>

<b>follower of Christ without following</b>

<b>Christ?</b>

<b>I don't know.</b>

<b>It should be something that we go down to the core again.</b>

<b>Let's start with Jesus.</b>

<b>Let's put his plan for humanity</b>

<b>back into action, and let's do it.</b>

<b>And these doctrines do matter.</b>

<b>And when you start to look at some of the</b>

<b>statements and stuff, and you start to see</b>

<b>wars bubble up in our own generations in our own life,</b>

<b>you're like, the reason you're acting</b>

<b>that way is because you don't get that basic point.</b>

<b>And then I get very sad when I see even Anabaptists who</b>

<b>don't understand the fundamentals, and</b>

<b>they're so washed in just American pop evangelicalism that</b>

<b>they don't even know these core basics</b>

<b>of Jesus following teaching.</b>

<b>And certainly they sound like 1942</b>

<b>Mennonites in Germany, and that's a shame.</b>

<b>So that's why I think this matters.</b>

<b>I think that the arguments still matter,</b>

<b>and we still need to say, okay, I'm glad.</b>

<b>Some churches have publicly repented of this.</b>

<b>Amen.</b>

<b>Keep it up.</b>

<b>Keep going.</b>

<b>And there are many things we have publicly</b>

<b>repented of, or maybe even more public, but</b>

<b>nevertheless, I think the arguments still matter.</b>

<b>We still need Jesus's cure for humanity be placed.</b>

<b>And just tacked on in an esoteric, speculative theology</b>

<b>kind of way is not what Jesus, I think,</b>

<b>want.</b>

<b>So the challenge that the Anabaptists had,</b>

<b>let's put this stuff to practice, I think,</b>

<b>needs to be said again.</b>

<b>Okay, so I have to ask them what</b>

<b>sparked the changes, like 500 years ago?</b>

<b>So what were the things, these were pretty</b>

<b>clearly radical changes, and it was a big</b>

<b>deal, and you're describing all these different debates</b>

<b>that were happening around transubstantiation,</b>

<b>say or this or that, or infant baptism.</b>

<b>What was the initial piece that got this started?</b>

<b>Why did those early Anabaptists take that</b>

<b>initial step back and say, "Wait, something's</b>

<b>got to change here?"</b>

<b>And that's a huge question.</b>

<b>Because of our grandfather Erasmus.</b>

<b>You might want to call Grebel our father, but Erasmus is</b>

<b>the man who put together the first</b>

<b>published Greek New Testament, and people</b>

<b>started reading and seeing what the original</b>

<b>said, and it sparked a lot of discussion.</b>

<b>Whether it's Luther or</b>

<b>Zwingli, we know they all got what...</b>

<b>See, Erasmus didn't just publish the Greek New Testament.</b>

<b>He also put out some things that said, "Obviously, the</b>

<b>early church followed the Great Commission</b>

<b>to form the church."</b>

<b>And then he looks at the book of</b>

<b>Acts and shows how that happened.</b>

<b>And we've kind of dropped that.</b>

<b>We've lost that.</b>

<b>And Luther discussed it, thought about it.</b>

<b>So did Zwingli.</b>

<b>They even talked about maybe starting a little church,</b>

<b>specifically Luther, a little church</b>

<b>in the big church of those people</b>

<b>that really have committed to Christ.</b>

<b>And so I would just say, if you want to...</b>

<b>Well, the Catholics said about Erasmus,</b>

<b>that you laid the egg that Luther hatched.</b>

<b>So I think if you want to just make it simple, Erasmus.</b>

<b>And that came from the text and</b>

<b>the Bible coming out in the Greek.</b>

<b>Wait, there's a Greek text to the Scriptures.</b>

<b>I thought it was just the Vulgate.</b>

<b>How dare you even look at what the Greeks said.</b>

<b>And also the world's going crazy</b>

<b>for Europe, for Western Europe.</b>

<b>I mean, it was bad enough to have the plagues.</b>

<b>Now you've got Constantinople falling in 1453.</b>

<b>You've got Jihad coming against</b>

<b>Europe taking different places.</b>

<b>You've got now...</b>

<b>And because of that, the kings that could</b>

<b>have just dealt with Protestantism now had</b>

<b>to fight two battles.</b>

<b>Charles V had to fight both the Protestants rising up and</b>

<b>the Jihad coming against them.</b>

<b>And then now the Anabaptists are in there.</b>

<b>It's a perfect storm.</b>

<b>And a lot of things was happening</b>

<b>and people were asking questions.</b>

<b>And when you have these plagues, we</b>

<b>saw a little bit of this in the COVID.</b>

<b>People start to get introspective when all</b>

<b>you got family members dying and all that.</b>

<b>And that was just...</b>

<b>I mean, I saw...</b>

<b>Have you ever seen that chart that shows the comparison of</b>

<b>the people that died in COVID</b>

<b>versus the Black Death or the crazy differences?</b>

<b>Yeah, it's not even close.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>And so when you're seeing people that are</b>

<b>already like you started off with saying that</b>

<b>we're spiritual and we believe God is behind all these</b>

<b>things, we're asking questions.</b>

<b>What's wrong?</b>

<b>And so there was a lot of things that</b>

<b>looked like the end of the world was happening.</b>

<b>And yeah, it tipped it.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>We used to...</b>

<b>A couple of us have used the word radical.</b>

<b>And often in modern world, that</b>

<b>means just overthrow everything.</b>

<b>And these people were radical.</b>

<b>The word itself means go to the root.</b>

<b>And I think we should...</b>

<b>Christians should be radical in that sense.</b>

<b>Not as in radical burn it all down.</b>

<b>Not as burn it all down because as I've already said, the</b>

<b>Catholic influence is very clear</b>

<b>both in Protestantism and in the Anabaptists.</b>

<b>There was good there.</b>

<b>And they didn't burn it all down.</b>

<b>You mentioned the Creed, the Apostles Creed.</b>

<b>Meno, in his writings, very specifically says, "I believe</b>

<b>the 12 articles and I believe</b>

<b>the 18 articles."</b>

<b>And what he means there is the</b>

<b>Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>He quotes from them.</b>

<b>Yes.</b>

<b>So it's not like I'm dumping the whole</b>

<b>faith, but you guys aren't committed.</b>

<b>You're not living it.</b>

<b>And that's what you were saying.</b>

<b>That's where the real issue came in.</b>

<b>Are you willing to commit as an adult and live it out?</b>

<b>And then that's also why the ban became important.</b>

<b>The Protestants and Catholics killed us</b>

<b>if we wouldn't commit to their approach.</b>

<b>And the Anabaptists said there does need to be some sense</b>

<b>of discipling or I mean, disciplining.</b>

<b>And so they said, "That's the ban.</b>

<b>We always want a person to be able to come</b>

<b>back if we tell him he has strayed away."</b>

<b>Amen.</b>

<b>Now, that's an interesting philosophical difference.</b>

<b>We want the person to be able to come back if he's strayed</b>

<b>away, whereas the other groups</b>

<b>are like, "We will execute you."</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>And that's what you brought up in</b>

<b>Schleitheim that our limit is the ban.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Where you guys have execution.</b>

<b>We don't go any further than that.</b>

<b>It's interesting.</b>

<b>It's kind of sad.</b>

<b>Talk about the time.</b>

<b>Wow.</b>

<b>That Schleitheim Confession, the discussions in Strasbourg</b>

<b>from Michael Sattler, early Dutch</b>

<b>Confessions had articles on not killing heretics.</b>

<b>Man, that's...</b>

<b>I mean, it's amazing that</b>

<b>that's a part of the conversation.</b>

<b>What a bizarre world.</b>

<b>It's almost like culture shock.</b>

<b>But they did believe.</b>

<b>They believed.</b>

<b>That's part of it.</b>

<b>You know, if I'm a Catholic, if I'm the bishop, and you're</b>

<b>spouting, whether it's Protestantism</b>

<b>or Anabaptism, and he's listening, I'm worried you're not</b>

<b>just the only one going to hell.</b>

<b>You're trying to drag him to hell with you.</b>

<b>Yeah, yeah.</b>

<b>You have to root evil out.</b>

<b>Yeah, you have to root...</b>

<b>They're wrong.</b>

<b>They're taking the wrong...</b>

<b>Once again, it's that church and state getting intertwined</b>

<b>with each other that makes the</b>

<b>church go the direction it does.</b>

<b>You know, and you brought up a couple</b>

<b>times already this concept of the community.</b>

<b>You got to understand how radically different that is.</b>

<b>They thought as a state.</b>

<b>You were baptized as a baby into the state.</b>

<b>The state and the church were together,</b>

<b>and that's been like that for a long time.</b>

<b>I might be having this wrong, but if I remember reading</b>

<b>this correctly, you baptized the infant,</b>

<b>and now, oh, now they're in the record of this...</b>

<b>Now you're liable for tax and tithes and all this stuff.</b>

<b>Everything's in there.</b>

<b>You're a citizen.</b>

<b>Yeah, it was almost like you're a citizen, pay for your...</b>

<b>Yeah, okay.</b>

<b>So now if someone was like...</b>

<b>So now you have a church that's gathered as a local</b>

<b>community in faith, that is radically</b>

<b>different.</b>

<b>And they saw this as truly...</b>

<b>So when you're saying, "My brother, my</b>

<b>sister," it meant something to them in a way.</b>

<b>And you were talking about what got me thinking about that</b>

<b>is when you see them talk about</b>

<b>the Apostles' Creed and the passage where</b>

<b>it says, "And we believe in the communion</b>

<b>of the saints," several of them use that word communion in</b>

<b>the Latin and the German sounds</b>

<b>like in the community of saints.</b>

<b>Peter Riedemann specifically says, when he's arguing to</b>

<b>Philip of Hesse and such, he says,</b>

<b>this is the gathering of the</b>

<b>people of God, the communion of saints.</b>

<b>He sees it more physically, more actual in</b>

<b>this world and not being wrapped up in just</b>

<b>to the state or washed into just the state.</b>

<b>It's the gathering of the people of God into a community.</b>

<b>And I think, again, this is something that</b>

<b>Anabaptists are threatened to lose when you</b>

<b>just kind of get your mind so washed</b>

<b>up and it's just about this, the other.</b>

<b>That gathering of the community is an essential tenet.</b>

<b>It's hard to kind of articulate</b>

<b>doctrinally sometime, but it's there.</b>

<b>It's very much there and it's a big difference than the</b>

<b>magisterial and the Catholic Reformation.</b>

<b>And Witten also the enemy love and not fighting back, that</b>

<b>would have been a huge piece that</b>

<b>comes in here as well, right?</b>

<b>Absolutely.</b>

<b>And it's not just enemy love and not fighting back.</b>

<b>The essence of non-resistance is love for everyone.</b>

<b>And I would argue that that is the</b>

<b>motive force behind the Anabaptist evangelism.</b>

<b>You love your neighbor, you love your enemy.</b>

<b>Well, what does that mean?</b>

<b>You tell them about the cure for their problem.</b>

<b>And really, the Catholics were sending out missionaries,</b>

<b>especially after the discovery</b>

<b>of the new world, all over the world.</b>

<b>Even the Calvinists did some, but I think that the fact</b>

<b>that it was in the state church</b>

<b>kind of framework made it something very different.</b>

<b>The Anabaptists were calling people to a relationship to</b>

<b>God that forms this new community.</b>

<b>This is powerful.</b>

<b>I remember one of my favorite quotes by Peter Riedemann, who</b>

<b>at the time they were the Marine</b>

<b>Corps of the Anabaptists in this mission thing you're</b>

<b>talking about and the idea of love being</b>

<b>there.</b>

<b>He has this beautiful quote</b>

<b>where he says, "Love is like fire."</b>

<b>He gives us an analogy.</b>

<b>He says, "Anybody who makes a fire knows that at the very</b>

<b>beginning of the fire, if you</b>

<b>put a big stick on it, it's going to snub it out.</b>

<b>But if you let that fire get really big, you could throw a</b>

<b>whole lot of houses, whatever</b>

<b>you want on there, and it'll just keep burning.</b>

<b>So it is with love.</b>

<b>That if our love is small, small little things make us</b>

<b>offended, and we will argue with each</b>

<b>other or whatever, and it'll snub out the love.</b>

<b>But if we let our love burn, then</b>

<b>we can handle any of these things.</b>

<b>I love the idea of bringing that God's</b>

<b>love and yeah, that's a powerful thought.</b>

<b>The Bruderhof used to publish that.</b>

<b>I don't know if you still do.</b>

<b>Love Is Like a Fire if you want to read that.</b>

<b>It's excellent.</b>

<b>So here we are 500 years later.</b>

<b>What ways, practically speaking, do these conversations,</b>

<b>debates, differences from back</b>

<b>then affect us right now in daily life?</b>

<b>People coming away from the side.</b>

<b>We've already hit some, but</b>

<b>let's try to get real practical here.</b>

<b>What does this look like now?</b>

<b>Because it's not like we're</b>

<b>being threatened with execution.</b>

<b>It's just a totally different</b>

<b>environment that we're in right now.</b>

<b>I'll say this and I hope this doesn't hurt your thing.</b>

<b>For 30 years or 25 years at least, I and</b>

<b>other people, and you Stephen too, have been</b>

<b>preaching things on non-resistance and</b>

<b>such like that and talking about these things.</b>

<b>When I see evangelicals, conservative evangelicals, or I</b>

<b>even see even worse so, Amish, conservative</b>

<b>Anabaptists getting wrapped up in the nationalism and the</b>

<b>patriotism that I see, I'm just broken</b>

<b>hearted.</b>

<b>I think somehow you don't get</b>

<b>the very origin of who you are.</b>

<b>Somehow the Jesus following kingdom building that somehow</b>

<b>we have traded now what we think</b>

<b>we had the answers that we were in Jesus Christ, now do we</b>

<b>really think the state and politics</b>

<b>is going to somehow...</b>

<b>No.</b>

<b>No.</b>

<b>And so yes, it matters.</b>

<b>And let's be reminded that we have a blueprint and it's</b>

<b>easy and the world is not going to</b>

<b>come up with it.</b>

<b>It's not going to be any</b>

<b>different now than it was in any time era.</b>

<b>So yeah.</b>

<b>Well, strangely enough, well, we look at where the</b>

<b>Christian church was in 1500 and with</b>

<b>its entanglement with the</b>

<b>state and we see how bad that was.</b>

<b>The Protestant church didn't do a whole lot better, but</b>

<b>then here in the states, first</b>

<b>the British colonies and then the</b>

<b>states, we didn't have that entanglement.</b>

<b>The last state church was in</b>

<b>Massachusetts and it was disbanded in 1833.</b>

<b>So after that we have no state church, but we still have</b>

<b>this kind of Protestant civil</b>

<b>religion sort of a thing.</b>

<b>And I just can't understand why these people don't see that</b>

<b>in the early church we didn't</b>

<b>have this.</b>

<b>And then from Constantine on, it starts getting more and</b>

<b>more entangled and it didn't go good</b>

<b>places.</b>

<b>Why do we think we're going to do any better?</b>

<b>But we also need to look at...</b>

<b>Now this is something not...</b>

<b>Well, we have to look at our</b>

<b>foundational document, our constitution, the Bible.</b>

<b>And it makes it so clear that</b>

<b>these two things are two kingdoms.</b>

<b>They don't mix and the end of what</b>

<b>Constantine started in the 1500s wasn't great.</b>

<b>It ain't going to be good if we do it now.</b>

<b>And I think we're actually experiencing something right now</b>

<b>where Christians are trying to make</b>

<b>that happen and it's going to be a disaster.</b>

<b>It already is.</b>

<b>Because one of the core issues in 1525 and on when the</b>

<b>early Anabaptist movement is getting</b>

<b>its feet on it, so to speak.</b>

<b>Yeah, you read this stuff and it's just constantly like,</b>

<b>"No, we're trying to pull it away."</b>

<b>Like you're saying that the community of believers versus</b>

<b>the state and how those were inseparable.</b>

<b>They were so to the point where if you're</b>

<b>not part of the way the church is run here,</b>

<b>you don't even fit into society in</b>

<b>any way because this is just how it is.</b>

<b>And yeah, I think you're onto something there.</b>

<b>It does feel like there is a movement or doesn't feel there</b>

<b>is a real movement to try to...</b>

<b>And we say this, that's Americans at least, we can't say</b>

<b>globally, I guess, but trying</b>

<b>to push those back together.</b>

<b>And it's like, you know what?</b>

<b>How this thing started actually does really speak to that.</b>

<b>It's very specifically to that exact issue.</b>

<b>This is not a new one at all.</b>

<b>Same theology given similar circumstances</b>

<b>will very likely create the same results.</b>

<b>Something that I think is more likely to happen than a</b>

<b>resurgence of state church connection</b>

<b>in the states.</b>

<b>I mean, right now, it almost looks like it could happen.</b>

<b>But I think that because of our modernistic and</b>

<b>post-modernistic way of thinking, our</b>

<b>materialistic way of thinking in the West, I think that</b>

<b>what's going to happen is, despite</b>

<b>what's happening presently in the United States with the</b>

<b>political world, I think what's going</b>

<b>to happen is it's already starting to happen.</b>

<b>I can't remember the author, but there's an</b>

<b>author who said we used to have a positive</b>

<b>attitude towards Christianity.</b>

<b>Then for maybe 20 years, like the</b>

<b>1990s, for early 2000s, it was neutral.</b>

<b>And then from 2010 on, there's a growing</b>

<b>negativity towards Christianity in the Western</b>

<b>world and both in Europe and the United States.</b>

<b>I think that's where we're</b>

<b>actually going to have the conflict.</b>

<b>It's going to swing that way.</b>

<b>And I think there are going to be Christians who I already</b>

<b>know there are Christians outside</b>

<b>my tradition who are becoming more and</b>

<b>more open to what the Anabaptist position said</b>

<b>about love of neighbor and things like that.</b>

<b>And now the people who are presently trying to work with</b>

<b>the government, take it over, they may</b>

<b>have a problem there.</b>

<b>They may want to fight against</b>

<b>it, literally fight against it.</b>

<b>Right.</b>

<b>But that's where our challenge is for us is to help</b>

<b>Christians see that's not what we</b>

<b>are called to.</b>

<b>And people can hear that.</b>

<b>I think you're right on it.</b>

<b>When I was first converting in the army and I visited my</b>

<b>first Mennonite, one of my first</b>

<b>Mennonite Churches I ever visited,</b>

<b>And I was there and we were singing and presenting things.</b>

<b>I looked and suddenly I saw on the wall there were these</b>

<b>over in Europe, you know how they have</b>

<b>plaques of all the people that</b>

<b>served during the different wars.</b>

<b>Oh, yeah.</b>

<b>And so I was like, after I went back, here I'm becoming a</b>

<b>conscious objector and going to this</b>

<b>Mennonite church in Germany.</b>

<b>I'm like, so I was talking to this old guy</b>

<b>who was like 70 years old here in 1990, 89.</b>

<b>And I said, so I'm just curious.</b>

<b>I thought you were a non-resistant.</b>

<b>This whole reason I'm even, you know, and he just looked at</b>

<b>me and said, oh, yeah, World War II.</b>

<b>I was a little boy.</b>

<b>He said, I could take you to my</b>

<b>house and I have a barn there.</b>

<b>And my dad, we were raised Quakers,</b>

<b>but then we came into the Mennonites,</b>

<b>He said, but I've left this there, that there was a</b>

<b>painting on our barn that was a symbol to vote for</b>

<b>Nazis.</b>

<b>And he said, I've left it there as a</b>

<b>memory, you know, to remember these things.</b>

<b>And I said, well, how did, you know, we</b>

<b>said, Dean it, it came on us like a revival.</b>

<b>It came on us like, I never forget those words.</b>

<b>It came on us like a revival.</b>

<b>We were just swept into it.</b>

<b>And, but what happened was after that,</b>

<b>people like, so this is Christianity.</b>

<b>I mean, now, you know, the popular</b>

<b>people, it was the conservative Christians.</b>

<b>It was not just the Mennonites, it</b>

<b>was all the conservative evangelical.</b>

<b>The more Bible believing you were, the</b>

<b>more likely you were to go into that.</b>

<b>I mean, you can go to the Berlin church and the reformed</b>

<b>church in Berlin, you've got literally on</b>

<b>the pulpit an etching of Hitler, you know, you've got him</b>

<b>there in the, you know, and so the people</b>

<b>were like, well, what is this?</b>

<b>You know, what is this?</b>

<b>So the reaction then, ever since</b>

<b>then, you've had kind of an agnostic.</b>

<b>I'm worried that what's happening right</b>

<b>now, you could end up with an agnostic.</b>

<b>America, even another level, like what's Christianity?</b>

<b>A bunch of weird, you know, things like that.</b>

<b>Well, this, this is where I think</b>

<b>the Anabaptist understanding of the two</b>

<b>kingdoms is essential and we need to</b>

<b>try to help other Christians see this.</b>

<b>In Hitler's time, you know, Hitler was</b>

<b>saying we have been mistreated and I think the</b>

<b>German nation was after World War I.</b>

<b>I really was.</b>

<b>Yeah, me too.</b>

<b>He, so he had a kind of an argument that</b>

<b>spoke to the heart and, you know, he didn't</b>

<b>start killing people at the beginning.</b>

<b>I think we're in danger of the same thing right here.</b>

<b>There are reasonable issues that are</b>

<b>problematic and we can get sucked in to,</b>

<b>that's what happened there.</b>

<b>I talked to both, not Quaker, but</b>

<b>conservative people who were young,</b>

<b>conservative Anabaptists in Southern</b>

<b>Germany and a real believer up in Northern</b>

<b>Germany, who at the time was a</b>

<b>Lutheran minister when I was talking to him.</b>

<b>He was a young man and he was drafted into Hitler's army.</b>

<b>And these people, all of them told me we</b>

<b>were not treated well and he sounded like</b>

<b>he's bringing us release, a relief maybe is a better word.</b>

<b>And it's only after he got basically</b>

<b>all the power in his hands that he started</b>

<b>doing the really, really bad things.</b>

<b>And people were either cowed or didn't</b>

<b>know it or, well actually some of my German</b>

<b>friends said, we didn't want to know it.</b>

<b>There you go.</b>

<b>There you go.</b>

<b>They said we could have known</b>

<b>it, but we didn't want to know it.</b>

<b>And that's what strikes me as like the</b>

<b>Anabaptists, you know, saying this is not</b>

<b>okay, like pointing out things that like,</b>

<b>we may not want to know that, but it's not</b>

<b>okay.</b>

<b>That's not right.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>You know, that's not right.</b>

<b>Wow.</b>

<b>Well, y'all definitely brought it to the</b>

<b>current reality, you know, that we're in.</b>

<b>But no, these are important conversations to have.</b>

<b>And I guess as far as where to leave it here with the</b>

<b>audience is I would encourage</b>

<b>people listening to go back and read some</b>

<b>of this stuff from the early Anabaptists,</b>

<b>like the things they were wrestling</b>

<b>with and the decisions they were making,</b>

<b>especially that extracting the church away</b>

<b>from the state was a real thorny one, you</b>

<b>know, and what they had to go</b>

<b>through and had to suffer for that.</b>

<b>That's significant.</b>

<b>That's significant.</b>

<b>So any closing comments from</b>

<b>either of you as we as we wrap this up?</b>

<b>The simplicity of Christ, you know, again, I go back to</b>

<b>Grebel's point, I believe the</b>

<b>word of God without complicated interpretation.</b>

<b>And out of that, I speak, let's be a people of the Bible</b>

<b>and let's put it into practical</b>

<b>application as a blueprint for humanity</b>

<b>and that the words of Jesus were meant to be</b>

<b>put into practice.</b>

<b>If we can meet there at Jesus in a</b>

<b>practical way, not just a theological way, but a</b>

<b>practical real way of meeting Jesus and</b>

<b>bringing his cure to humanity, I think we'll</b>

<b>see a better world.</b>

<b>I really do.</b>

<b>And I can get behind that message.</b>

<b>I get excited about that message and I pray</b>

<b>for it over all of us and my generations, my</b>

<b>children, my grandchildren, I want them to have that.</b>

<b>I'm not disagreeing with him at all.</b>

<b>He's exactly right.</b>

<b>But then I'm going to point out the</b>

<b>other side, which is these guys didn't burn</b>

<b>everything down.</b>

<b>And we have a tradition that goes all the way to the time</b>

<b>of the resurrection of Jesus and</b>

<b>the ascension and then the</b>

<b>Pentecost when the church started.</b>

<b>And there are good lessons that they wrestled with issues</b>

<b>and we don't have to reinvent</b>

<b>the wheel.</b>

<b>So yes, the commitment idea to Jesus is absolutely premier.</b>

<b>But there were people 2000, 15000. I'm sorry, 2000, 1500</b>

<b>a thousand years ago, 500 years</b>

<b>ago, who were equally committed and they wrestled with</b>

<b>issues that have shaped the church.</b>

<b>And so I'm also going to say, let's recognize the heritage</b>

<b>we've been given and we've got</b>

<b>to evaluate it.</b>

<b>Looking at the history of the Reformation can help us with</b>

<b>that, but let's not just chuck</b>

<b>it.</b>

<b>Totally agree.</b>

<b>Amen.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Wow.</b>

<b>Well, I think that you gave us some things to think about.</b>

<b>I'm pretty sure.</b>

<b>I'll be curious what the comments are on this one.</b>

<b>This is really good.</b>

<b>This is really important things to wrestle with.</b>

<b>And I just say that to people listening.</b>

<b>Like we love to hear from our listeners,</b>

<b>like what are they thinking and processing and</b>

<b>wrestling with.</b>

<b>We want to hear that.</b>

<b>So put it in the comments or send us an email.</b>

<b>But yeah, thank you both for sharing today.</b>

<b>I really appreciate you taking the time.</b>

<b>You're welcome.</b>

<b>Thanks for listening to this discussion</b>

<b>with Dean Taylor and Stephen Russell about</b>

<b>Reformation debates and the</b>

<b>origins of the Anabaptist movement.</b>

<b>As we mentioned briefly in this episode,</b>

<b>we're doing a documentary series on the</b>

<b>origins of the Anabaptist movement and</b>

<b>that's its own YouTube channel and its own</b>

<b>website.</b>

<b>You can find all of that links</b>

<b>down below in the description.</b>

<b>You can also go to that website at AnabaptistOrigins.org.</b>

<b>We'll be filming that in June of 2025 that</b>

<b>we don't have a final release date set yet</b>

<b>for the entire documentary series.</b>

<b>So make sure you're subscribed to</b>

<b>follow along for updates on that project.</b>

<b>Thanks again for listening and</b>

<b>we'll catch you in the next episode.</b>