All right, good morning and welcome to real Life with pastors Mike, Jason, and most importantly, Pastor Gene.

Good morning, gentlemen.

How are you?

Great.

We are fine.

Outstanding.

Good to see you.

Thank you for joining us.

We've made it all the way to episode six, and our topic today is going to be the church divided and refined.

And so last week we talked about, in episode five, we looked at how Jesus can really a relationship with Jesus rather.

And walking with him divides our closest relationships, divides families, just the nature of it, because Jesus represents obviously the standard of truth and exclusivity.

And so that kind of personal division, it hurts and it's painful, but it also shows up on a larger scale.

And that's what all of today is going to be about, is a division at a higher level, specifically at the church.

And so churches, we think of church splits, we think of, you know, movements fractured.

I was reminded of just something here local in Bakersfield, and I don't.

Not quite sure whatever happened to it.

But, Mike, you remember the Jesus shack?

Oh, yeah, that was a big thing.

Same thing with the upper room at the old Montgomery Ward building that just doesn't exist anymore.

So, you know, movements come, movements go.

We think of leaders fall.

And that happens, it seems like all the time.

And it's discouraging, but it's not new.

And so today I think we're going to spend some time talking about why division in the church isn't always necessarily a bad thing.

It's painful, but how God can use it to his glory.

And so.

And how we remain faithful in that.

And so I guess let's start with you, Pastor Mike.

Let's start with maybe addressing, does the scripture say anything about specifically this time?

We think about a falling away.

You know, the Bible's clear in the last days that there's going to be people who are, you know, chasing after doctrines that make them feel good or tickles their ears.

So can you talk a little bit about, you know, what falling away looks like, what the Bible even says about it and why that even matters?

Why should we, you know, pay attention to that?

Yeah, it's a great question.

I think we should pay attention because the Bible speaks of it specifically.

So it's something that we.

We look for Paul in writing, you know, to the church there in Thessalonians, he said in 2nd Thessalonians 2, 3 says, don't be fooled by what they say.

And he was talking about, you know, religious teachers who heretics and those that teach false doctrine.

He said for the day will not Come until there's a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

And so he's talking about the Antichrist, obviously.

They're the one who brings destruction in.

You know, Paul wrote to.

To Timothy, and he said, you know, Timothy, just know that in the last days, you know, men are going to become lovers of themselves rather than lovers of God.

There's going to be really an interesting, you know, statement that he makes, is that the.

The love of many will wax cold.

And, you know, we see that and we've seen it all throughout, you know, church history.

It's not something that's new.

It's only that in the end times, in the last days, it will be in.

In a greater capacity.

You could see, you know, as you look through, you'd provided some.

Some things to look at, you know, with some statistics, you know, that.

That you had sent over to me.

And I was kind of looking through.

It was pretty interesting, you know, thinking about what's happening in America today.

And it was from the.

The Barna group.

This was from 2022, excuse me.

And it said 44% of pastors admit feeling pressured to compromise biblical teaching to fit the modern culture.

And 37% of church leaders say that they avoid teaching on controversial topics like abortion, LGBTQ plus issues, gender identity to avoid, you know, alienating their congregations.

And so, you know, we live in a day where, you know, again, people are not looking to God because they're wanting so much to fit into the world system.

And we get that.

You know, we study the Bible that after the rapture, the church takes place, of course, but during the tribulation period, the only way people are going to be able to buy and sell is, you know, taking the.

The mark of the beast.

And so, you know, there's this pressure.

You know, there's a verse, you know, we.

We probably bring up this verse two or three times a month, you know, in our studies here at Calvary Chapel is to be not conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of our minds that we might prove, you know, what that good and perfect and acceptable, you know, will is of God.

But, you know, we just live in a day where, like I said, those things are going to be happening more and more, you know, around us.

You know, I think one of the statistics you sent me was, you know, only 37%, you know, pastors hold a biblical worldview.

And, you know, so what's happening today, you know, that more and more pastors are not even trusting the word.

Of God.

You know, we, we used to, you know, it was like a given, right, that, you know, we believe that the Bible was inerrant.

And now you got people.

I don't, I don't really know.

And then, you know, is the Bible sufficient, you know, for today?

No.

No.

And so the Bible has less of a voice in many ways in people's lives.

But also, you know, I'd be amiss if I didn't say this.

Yes, the end times are going to be marked by a.

And it's not, it doesn't say a falling away.

It's talking falling away.

And I think that that's important because there's always going to be fallings away.

Like you said, we've, we can see movements, we can see leaders.

There's always going to be people that fall and fall away.

You know, we, I know people, gosh, who've been, as you, both of you guys know, that were, I've said it, you know, that were pillars in our church, you know, over the years.

And they don't even walk with God anymore, have nothing to do with them.

And you go, man, what the heck happened?

You know, And God doesn't force us to walk with him, you know, that's a choice that, that, you know, we get to make.

And one of the interesting things that I think about the falling away, I believe my, my opinion on that and studying scriptures, the, the real falling away happens after the church is removed at the rapture.

And if you think about it, because we're called to be salt and light.

And when you take that out of the world, you know, and it's salt again in a biblical, you know, description was a preservative more than was a flavor, was to prevent decay.

So imagine the church being taken out in the rapture and all of a sudden, you know, what do you have that's left at that point?

And it's going to be a, a major, major turning away, you know, from the things of God at that point.

And that's kind of where I see, you know, the world going.

So when you, when you see these things happening in our midst, basically it's, it's just as Jesus said, it's birth pangs.

It's not the falling away, but there's going to be, up to that point, you're going to see it happening a.

Lot more and more and more.

So not to be surprised.

And that's why I love studying the Word of God.

So when we see these things happen, it doesn't trouble us.

It causes us to.

I actually believe the word of God even more and I trust God even more that he's faithful.

Even the midst of, of difficulty like we see here.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

And I think, you know, when we look at just division in the church, but not just that look at division in the world.

I mean, we're just talking about the evil thing that happened yesterday and why and it's what is people like, you know, we think of Charlie Kirk.

What does he represent?

What is the missionary I think you talked about?

I forget his name.

Bill Elliot.

Bill Elliot.

What does he represent?

And he represents Jim Elliot.

Yeah, he represents, you know, God's truth.

And the vision is often, I think, a result of people responding differently to that.

And that's why, I mean, Hebrew, Hebrews 4:12 tells us that God's word is, you know, it's a two edged sword, it divides.

It's going to be divisive because it represents something that's immovable and that's God's truth.

And so it's not surprising, you know, the thought of pastors and churches drifting, especially today, is sad.

But it just seems, I just think in our own city you see it and you see it on a global scale too, where like you said, pastors are just compromising for the sake of unity.

But unifying with what.

And it's something other than God's truth.

But that division also reminds us, or I guess rather let me say that division doesn't always mean failure.

God can use it to refine his people.

And so Gene, can you talk a little bit about that?

Why is division not necessarily always a bad thing?

I'm not saying it's not a painful thing because I think that it is in many ways.

But why is it not always a bad thing?

Yeah, I guess to answer that, you'd start in First Corinthians 11 where Paul actually says that there must be divisions in the church.

And he goes on to say so that they which are approved will be made manifest.

And then his, his situation, his context there is that they were having, coming to the Lord's table on Sunday nights and there would be a potluck preceding it and then they would, as we say, take communion.

And some of the folks who are getting drunk at the potluck and they were hoarding food.

They were obviously different people from different strata of society there, some poor, some rich.

And so the rich were hoarding the food and not sharing.

And so they really didn't have this idea of community.

And as a result of it, Paul said Hey, some of you are sick and some of you are dying.

Which we take to mean that God was taking them home after a sickness, prematurely taking them home to heaven.

And it did.

I mean, in a very stark way.

Obviously, you come to communion on a Sunday night at Corinth, and there was an obvious division.

And your first thought would be, wow, you know, I thought this was a Christian church.

What are you people doing?

You're not really walking the way that you should.

And I think that's where that's, you know, that can be applied then universally.

So the context was communion, but that's a principle.

God says, hey, this is a principle in the church.

There's going to be divisions.

And I can use that to show who is walking in a worthy manner, not just to those who are, but to those people themselves.

I mean, you know, God, I think you and I sit here and we think, how could you get drunk at communion, but.

And not realize that it was not a good thing?

But we've all seen people just, you know, slide in that direction.

But it's an opportunity for that individual be confronted.

You know, Paul a couple times in the Scripture, but I like it in Galatians 5, where he talks about the works of the flesh, and he says, these are evident, meaning they are obvious.

And so you and I, a lot of times can look at a person and say, hey, you're in.

You're walking in the flesh.

Because you fit one of these categories that Paul talked about.

And so, you know, division.

What I think people always balk when I say this, but I think there are too many churches.

And what I mean by that is that there are too many organized groups that have no testimony or no story of how they started or why they started or what was what God was doing.

Except maybe, as you mentioned, a church split.

They left in one church to go to another church.

And rarely is that doctrinal, rarely does it mean that there was a debate on doctrine.

It's usually just feelings or somebody who wants to be the teacher.

And more and more that it should become obvious that, okay, you're wanting to come and be my spiritual teacher, my spiritual leader, but over here, you're willing to cause division to get what you want.

And so I think division is obvious, and we need to.

We need people to see it so they can either repent or get, you know, not hinder.

Because if you've got people in leadership or in ministry that are not really walking with the word, that's just going to be a weight rather than a Wing, it's going to hinder the ministry and that's something we can't afford in these last days.

So.

Yeah, I don't know if that answers your question or not, but yeah, no, it's, it's good.

And so, but we see it.

I mean, we see it in this town.

I'm sure you've seen it in Hanford.

You see church splits all the time.

You see the division all the time.

And it could be division over something as simple as what I think the Bible says about baptism or what I think the Bible says about the Sabbath or doesn't say.

And it's an aggressive, militant division where people just get angry and then they just start hating people.

And so.

And I think we have to be careful with that because, you know, if we're called to be faithful in a world that's, that's drifting and we even see this in the, the church that's compromising more and more and more, it's easy to take the Pharisee approach and focus on, you know, rules and pride, making ourselves feel more righteous than others.

And I have the we do it the right way and that church doesn't.

And so I think some traditions and certain Christian groups today, this isn't new, can lean so heavily on being what we would call Christians set apart.

Right.

Or different, that it starts to look more like exclusion than true holiness and representing Christ.

And that's definitely not what we're called to do.

So when we think of that word holiness or being set apart, really it's about allegiance to Jesus and not compromising obviously with his word, but not about elevating ourselves either.

And so Mike, can you talk a little bit about what maybe what it really means?

Then we think about the word set apart.

What does that really mean?

As you know, the people of God.

We go back to the original word of that ecclesia.

You know, the church was.

We are a called out people.

You know, we think of the church as a gathering place, but in the truest sense, you know, when Jesus called the disciples unto himself and he told them to go into all the world, make disciples of all the nations they were to go.

And, and so we gather as the church, you know, in, in place to study together and to pray and to worship with the intent of equipping the saints for the work of ministry so people can go out into the world and make a difference.

And so it really comes back, you know, to what happens when the word of God goes forth.

You know, Jesus said, I didn't come to make peace, I came to equip you with a sword he sent.

Father against son, mother against daughter.

You know, we've gone through all those verses in previous podcasts, but going back to that passage in Hebrews 4:12, it just comes to mind.

He says, you know, for the word of God is alive and powerful.

It's sharper than the sharpest two edged sword, cutting between the soul and the spirit, between the joint and the morrow.

It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

And the beauty when the word of God goes forth is it separates.

And you know, I always think of that statement, it's better to be divided by truth than united by a lie.

And I think that's where a lot of church splits do happen that aren't necessarily negative.

It's when, and I think within the Calvary Chapel movement, when I think Gene would, you know, probably be able to speak to this even maybe better than I.

But you know, where people have come into the church and got into leadership and then all of a sudden said, you know, well, we don't believe, you know, hold to the, the Calvary distinctives any longer.

You know, we believe that we should be doing this and not, not really about evangelism anymore.

It's just about equipping the saints inside the church.

And and so these become very strong doctrinal issues.

And I always remember, you know, Pastor Chuck would say when there was this big Calvinist push inside the, you know, Calvary Chapel in The early to mid 2000s, he would say, you know, we're not going that direction.

He said, but if, you know, God's called you to go, go.

And he said, don't go away mad, just go, you know.

And so there is a, there is a division, you know, that's not necessarily unhealthy because we do see that Jesus has called us to go out first.

John, you know, tells us that they went out from us to show that they weren't of us.

And so there's things that are going to happen.

I like in 2nd Corinthians 6:17, there it says, therefore go out from their midst and be separate from them, you know, says the Lord.

And really what it's demonstrating there, you know, as you've, you've well said, it's, it's to demonstrate our allegiance to Jesus, not to a person or an organization, you know, a church, but to be a people that are set apart to God.

You know, I mean, we, we, I quoted this just a little while ago in Matthew 5, you know, Jesus said, you're the salt of the earth.

But what good is salt if it's lost its flavor, right?

Can you make it salty again?

He said it'll be thrown out and trampled.

Underfoot is worthless.

You're the light of the world.

Like a city on a hilltop that can't be hidden.

He said no one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket.

But instead, a lamp is placed on a stand where it gives light to everyone in the house.

In the same way, let your good deeds shine for all to see so that everyone will praise your Father in heaven.

So I think, you know, what we see in that is just a clear call not to blend in, but to stand out.

Not to follow the world's patterns, not to follow the world's ways, but to live a life in Christ Jesus.

I mean, that was Jesus prayer in John 17:16, when Jesus was praying, you know, for us.

He says, they do not belong to the world any more than I do.

He said, make them holy by your truth.

Teach them your word, which is truth.

Just as you sent me into the world, I'm sending them into the world, and I give myself as a holy sacrifice for them so they can be made holy by your truth.

And so as you, you know, put the notes here, you know, holiness is.

Is allegiance.

And it's not just behavior.

It's.

It's a life and a lifestyle and the beauty of that.

And the last thing I really want to share with this is that holiness does something that's so amazing, I think few people really think about, you know, in these days that we live in, is that holiness hastens the day of the Lord, if you think about it.

And.

And, you know, and I was studying through this.

I just did my own little, you know, study, because pure holiness and moral transformation, when it takes place in our lives, the world takes notice of it.

I mean, I think that's one of the reasons Charlie Kirk was assassinated.

I think people saw the genuine goodness in him.

He could.

He had such a quality, that was a Jesus quality that he could debate, you know, those that hated him and do it in a loving way and to listen to their arguments.

Because as Jesus said, the truth, you'll know, and the truth will set you free.

And you could see the confidence when he would speak.

It would be.

He knew that he had the truth.

And so you don't fear a lie.

You just listen.

And again, sometimes people, you.

You see all these interviews coming up now on the last day, and people would.

As they would talk, they would come to the realization that Their argument, you know, was baseless.

And he would just sit there and smile.

He would start the conversation and base it on truth.

And then when they would try to, you know, come along, all of a sudden they're just going, you can't, you can't argue against that.

And so when you can't, you know, win the, the argument, what do you do?

Well, the same thing they did to Jesus, you know, is if you kill the messenger, we say that often kiddingly, with people.

Right.

Don't, don't shoot the messenger.

Right.

But ultimately that's what it's going to come down to.

And I think we have to really look within.

Are we going to be people who are courageous?

Paul wrote, you know, 2nd Corinthians 7.

He says, because we have these promises, dear friends, he says, let us cleanse ourselves from everything that can defile our body or spirit, and let us work towards complete holiness because we fear God and not man.

And I think as we, you know, we look at these last days, there really needs to be a revisiting of what holiness is.

And that really, the power of holiness.

And then to watch, as Gene said, you know, we don't need all these churches in that regard.

So the testing that's taking place now, you know, with, you know, people are gonna have to ask themselves today, they go, am I willing to stand up like Charlie Kirk?

Because if I speak for the truth, there's a good chance that, that people are, they might kill me.

Well, if you're going to stand up, you're gonna go, am I in a place that if I died today, am I ready to meet Jesus face to face?

And that's what happens is the end result of that is, is personal holiness, is that you go, no, I know it's not a works thing.

You go, but, man, I know that my life is hidden in Christ and I know that my allegiance is to him.

And as Charlie said, you know, he was asked that question, you know, a month ago.

They said, you know, are you ready?

What if.

What if you knew you were killed?

What would, how would you want to be known?

And he said, for my faith in Jesus, you know, that's what I want to be known for, is a guy that, that love, the love of the Lord.

Yeah.

No, Amen.

And one of the things I remember him saying too, because it always stood out to me, is he would call out modern day pastors too, with watering down the truth of God's word and that it's, it really, it's an evil thing because we're not speaking truth and we're not representing Christ and his Word.

And so when we think about those, specifically the division.

And Gene, I'll let you close with this.

Maybe just a couple thoughts that you have.

When we zoom back out, it's not just obviously a personal calling to be set apart, but it's something that we should be seeing on a larger scale.

So can you help us?

I guess.

Gene, I'm not quite sure how you want to answer this, but can we connect the dots between the division that we feel we talked about in last episode in our families and in the division that we're seeing in the wider church?

And probably many people that are listening to this, if they've been in church for any period of time, have experienced that division, whether it's just an one issue, a doctrinal issue, a wider issue, a church split, which is kind of like the most, I guess, dramatic or a moral failing.

Failing of the pastor.

But can.

Can you do those dots connect at all?

Yeah, I think so.

I get down into the idea that the.

That the people are not.

Well, I was watching something the other day, and somebody said to another person, you are not a serious person.

You are not a serious person.

And I think sometimes even a committed Christian could fit into that category.

Hey, you are not a serious person.

And what I would mean by that is that you are not even trying to live out your Christianity.

You're keeping, you know, your relationship with the Lord compartmentalized.

You're saved, you're on your way to heaven.

You're learning the word of God, but it's not really in you.

You're not a living epistle like you need to be.

And I think what God will do in a situation like that is he will put that person, he does it to all of us, but he will especially put that person into a situation where they have to take a stand.

Now, you know, you were talking about taking a stand like Charlie Kirk and being murdered for it.

Usually in our lives, it's going to be something less dramatic, right?

It's going to be an issue at work, it's going to be an issue in our home.

Something happening in a classroom where, you know, you have to stand up and say, I can't condone this or I can't go with this.

Reminds me of Daniel.

Daniel and his three friends.

They're.

They're teenage boys.

And yet he.

He was able to successfully navigate being in the Babylonian court, learning the Babylonian ways.

He said, look, I can't eat this food.

I can't do it, but God's going to bless us for not eating it.

And he was always looking for the way out, but in that sense, you know, not compromising.

But when he had to, he says, hey, yeah, I prayed three times a day and you're going to have to throw me in the lion's den.

And so Christians need to be more serious.

And one of the sub thoughts there is that your.

Wherever God has you, that is a mission field.

You're the one that's been planted there and you are to take a stand.

I remember there's a. I think it was Keith Green.

It must have been Keith Green on one of his album covers.

So probably.

So you want to go back to Egypt.

There's a picture of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego standing against while everybody else is kneeling to the, and bowing down to the statue of Nebuchadnezzar.

And, and I remember this one guy off to the side is looking at them with this incredulous look like, what are you guys doing?

You're going to get thrown into the fiery furnace.

And at some point, I don't think we will.

I mean, some of us will like Charlie Kirk that, you know, you will be in that real extra hot fiery furnace where something absolutely tragic happens to you.

On the other hand, I think most people, maybe they're.

And not that this isn't serious, but you risk losing your job, you risk losing your friends, you risk losing something.

But, you know, the Lord wants you to stand and then his, you know, that's evangelism in a strong way.

And then you talk about Jesus.

Why are you doing this?

Because I love Jesus and he stood for me, he died for me, that I might live.

And people recognize that as long as you stay calm.

And that's another thing Christians have to work on is bringing forth the fruit of the spirit in situations like that.

They need to be even in the New Testament who just remain calm and said, hey, this is, this is the way it's going to go.

So, you know, no use yelling at you.

But I think, I just think people need to more, you know, say, hey, this is serious God.

God's put me here so that I will make a difference.

And probably right now, if I asked everybody if they even knew I was a Christian, some of them would say no.

And so we need to rectify that.

I like that saying that if you were put on trial for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?

Yeah.

Josh McDowell said, that's great.

No, for sure.

So as we close today, remember, division obviously isn't.

It's not due and it's in the church, but it's not always a sign of failure.

And I just love the way that you said this, Gene.

You know, we have to stand firm on the truth of God's word, and we try and change the word of God to fit what we believe reality should be.

And it's the exact opposite.

Reality is God's word.

He defines it.

And so here's our challenge this week is don't.

If you're in a church that, you know, maybe you're seeing division, you're seeing stuff happen.

And don't.

Don't measure the health of the church by its size or even by its popularity or its influencer status or how big its social media following is, but by its faithfulness to Christ.

And that's really what it is.

I was talking to a family about this yesterday who's getting ready to move, and they were saying, you know, we found this Calvary Chapel.

And it was.

We were excited.

Then we started listening to the messages, and it's like, man, it was like a pep rally.

They didn't talk about Jesus.

There was no scriptures.

And I said, you don't owe any allegiance to the name Calvary Chapel.

Your allegiance is to Christ.

So find a church that teaches Jesus, that teaches his Word.

And so.

And we get so hung up on the name.

Well, I gotta find a Calvary Chapel or I gotta find this.

No, you don't.

You need to radically seek Jesus, and the names will change.

But we get so hung because we're tribal.

And so, you know, can you edit.

Out that last part that you just said about Calvary Chapel?

I mean, Gene and I both took offense.

Sorry, I apologize.

I will edit that out.

So next time, you know, and.

And we talked a little bit about being set apart, and that's really what our focus is on.

In episode seven, which will be airing next week, we're going to talk about what does that mean?

What does it mean to be set apart?

And why holiness is more than just behavior.

Pastor Mike alluded to that earlier, how it's about allegiance to Christ and how you can live with conviction, with courage and love in a darkening world because it is getting worse.

And I think nobody alive today can't look at what's going on and think, man, something is just happening.

You don't even have to be a Christian to understand something's happening.

But as a Christian, we look at it and say, like you said earlier, Gene, while We were waiting for our friend Lord Jesus.

Come quickly.

Yeah, yeah.

I've been using the word chaos a lot more.

You know, people say, hey, what's going on?

It's chaos.

That's what's going on.

It's people doing what they want to do without restraint.

It's interesting as a parallel, you see that people are acting without God's law, without any law.

They have no law to themselves.

Right.

At a time of our society is saying, hey, yeah, we don't want the laws to bother anybody.

We want to lessen and the, the, you know, stuff.

And so, you know, we, we just need to take a stand where we've always been planted on the inerrant, authoritative word of God.

And I'm surprised more Christians aren't being persecuted, to tell you the truth.

I don't want it to happen, but I'm very shocked.

No one that in recent years has lost their job because of taking a stand for Christ.

And that's, that's an interesting phenomena to me.

Yeah.

And I think just pull out.

It could be a challenge for anybody.

Just look in the word of God in the Bible, pull out something that God calls good, and then look at modern culture and they're going to call it bad, they're going to call it hateful.

That verse is so alive today and what we see.

So thank you for joining us.

If you've enjoyed this episode, if it's encouraged you, and that's our goal, that's our hope, is that you're encouraged in your faith, share it with somebody.

But you be the solution that God uses you reach out to people, don't just send them a podcast, but invest in them, reach out to them, pray with them and encourage them.

So thank you so much for joining us, and we will see you in episode seven next Thursday.