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Janine: Welcome to the latest episode of Unleashing Brilliance. I am your host, Janine Garner, and today we have the inspiring Emmagness Ruzvidzo, CEO of Varka Consulting, a brand and marketing powerhouse. She is an award winning brand strategist who [00:01:00] has helped shape some truly iconic brands. Emmagness journey is a blend of resilience, brilliance, and passion for inclusion.

She has over 15 years of strategic brand management, and she's known for creating powerful results driven brands. Her accolades are impressive. She's been named among Queensland's 40 under 40. She is one of the top 25 influential African Australians, and she's received as Queensland's day award, as well as the wonderful women of Waterford award.

And Emmagness influence in brand strategy is matched by her commitment to authentic leadership and impactful inclusion. Now in this conversation, she opens up about why we must stop shrinking ourselves to make others comfortable. A message she lives by as she shares her journey from Zimbabwe to Australia.

And Emmagness believes that embracing who we are. And staying [00:02:00] curious about real inclusivity are essential, not just for personal growth and our own success, but also for brands hoping to make a lasting impact. So if you're ready to stand tall, if you're ready to redefine your self worth, and if you're ready to rethink the role of inclusivity in your life and business, you won't want to miss this episode and this conversation with a Emmagness.

Let's dive in.

Good morning, Emmagness. I'm so excited to finally get you on my podcast. How are you?

Emmagness: I'm fantastic, Janine. I feel like I, I know you, like this doesn't feel like it's a first time speaking to each other. Me

Janine: LinkedIn and in all, yeah, because I remember, and this is, this is what I love about [00:03:00] LinkedIn. As long as we have the algorithms open to, not just bringing people into our world that talk the same as us. But I remember seeing you pop up on my LinkedIn and I started following your posts and your conversations. And honestly, every time I was reading them at Emmagness, I was like, yes. Yes. Yes. and so hence why you got this random reach out for me saying, please come on my podcast because there is so much that you talk about that I know our listeners will love. So thank you for trusting the random reach out. This is the power. of social media, isn't it? So I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Emmagness: too.

Janine: So just before we get started, you've, achieved some incredible accolades, both in terms of your corporate career, top 25, most influential people, 40 under 40. like the list goes [00:04:00] on. I'm really curious when you look at, those accolades, what do they really mean to you being recognized for the work that you do?

Emmagness: most of the accolades that you've mentioned, um, and the, the awards and achievements that I've been publicly recognized for It's been through nominations by other people. So it's people that have seen the work that I'm doing, and nominated me for an award to win something And I've won and I've been awarded.

So it's the award itself. While it's nice to display my offers and look at at times when I'm not feeling great, what's most important is that people see the work that I'm doing and think it's valuable enough and has contributed enough to be. put forward for an award. So that's what really it means to me.

And when that voice, that negative voice comes and tries to whisper [00:05:00] things, I just look at them and know that the work I'm doing is valuable. People know that it's valuable and I've got the evidence that it is valuable. So

Janine: Yeah, well, you deserve it because you really are absolutely laser focused in terms of the work that you do. So for our listeners, can you share when you talk about the work that you do, what, is that work and why, why does it matter so much to do the work that you do?

Emmagness: I'm a multi disciplined person. And what this means is I do a lot of things within a specific area. So in brand and marketing, my passion is on inclusive brand strategies. So included inclusive brand strategies through brand consultation and brand strategy design. And the reason I'm passionate about this is because I think there's so many.

Instances where =organizations leave money on the [00:06:00] table because they're not addressing or they're not suited or, designing their products or their brand in a way that appeals to their diverse audience. So they will work with a specific target audience. But the diverse audience within that target segment is at times left behind because the messaging, the imagery.

The way the brand is positioned doesn't quite align to those people's values. So I'm passionate about that because, first of all, it makes everyone seen, heard, and valued, and everyone can feel they belong. But it's also good for business. So if you are focused on revenue generation, sustainability of the planet, all those things, Then it makes sense to have a brand that fosters inclusivity and belonging.

So that's one piece of business that I'm really passionate about. The other one is personal branding and For me, personal branding, particularly [00:07:00] for, business owners and migrants and migrants, because I noticed when I moved to Australia, I applied what I'd learned back in Zimbabwe, where I'm from, which is head down, work really hard.

You will get the recognition. The salary increase will come. The promotion will come. That did not work at all. And I realized that I needed to articulate my unique value a little bit more. I needed to understand who the influencers were in my career and who could sponsor me and I needed to articulate what I wanted.

Very clearly people cannot guess what I wanted. So knowing that and then working towards refining my personal brand, repositioning myself and articulating very well what I wanted to do and how I wanted to be seen and recognized my career just soared and I ended up as head of [00:08:00] brand and marketing for a fortune 500 company.

So Because I know that works, I'm passionate about helping everyone else. I want to take everyone else along for the journey and so that people align their careers and their aspirations, their experiences and their qualifications to the career that they actually want to thrive in.

Janine: I love all of that. And we're going to delve into that consistent thread that runs through your work, both from a branding point of view from an organizational perspective, but also an individual with that piece about being seen and heard from an inclusivity perspective. But before we do, before we jumped online, we were having a little bit of a giggle about running our own businesses.

And I know this will resonate with, so many, of our listeners. you've shared that you're now running your own business, and your comment about, we never stop. And that whole. Quote that gets fed to us as entrepreneurs, that when you're [00:09:00] doing what you love, it's not work. Come on, share with our audience what you shared with me offline.

Emmagness: I would love to have a conversation with that person who said when you do what you love, you don't have to work a day in your life because I'm pretty sure something was happening in their life and they thought, Oh, I love what I'm doing. It doesn't feel like work as an entrepreneur. I have not experienced that at all.

I love what I do. I'm passionate about what I do and I'm so driven for it to be successful and to amplify. what I do. But man,

Janine: It's

Emmagness: I love it, I work hard.

Janine: I know. I think it's, it's different, isn't it? That you never. When you're passionate, when it's your own business, when you can't ring up IT to sort your computer out or phone up the accounts department to sort out those expenses or HR to sort out some people issue, [00:10:00] you just never stop thinking. And it's, it's really this difference.

I remember. in the early days of my own business, the kids were really little and can remember rushing, like rushing around to try and drop them at school and I still had one still at home. and I can still remember like dropping two off at school, pulling Ava to the side of the road. Looking at my little one that was still in his toddler seat going, what the hell am I doing?

Why am I putting myself under so much pressure to get to work in my desk, at my desk for quarter to nine in the morning? Who set that rule? And I really can't remember. I mean, this is your own show, Janine, you, you can make your own rules, but oh my gosh, I honestly, 12, 14 years. I still look at myself and I go, Janine. Who made that rule? It's the old stories that you're telling yourself, but, yeah, this concept of building our own businesses is, tricky at times. And you ride the wave of the highs of winning the awards and the accolades and standing on stage and the lows of [00:11:00] wondering where, the next new opportunities coming from.

So, but we wouldn't change it for the world because we love

what

Emmagness: Absolutely. Absolutely. There's one thing that I read that really challenged my perspective on, I love what you mentioned about who set the rules. And it was a woman who was talking about putting her dishes in the dishwasher. And running them once, but they were not clean. And she was talking to her therapist about it and her therapist said, Oh, but why don't you run the dishwasher twice?

And that's different, right? Because we are taught and conditioned that the dishwasher is run once. If the dishes are not clean, something is wrong, then you get stressed about it. But, hey, run it twice. And it's, it's been challenging, but thinking that, okay, I've got this long to do list and I have to remind myself this all the time.

I have a long to do list. cause that's our business. is what employs us. We have to work hard and make sure that it works. At the end of the [00:12:00] day, there's a reason and there's a purpose why we chose to be doing what we're doing. And as long as we anchor ourselves in the why and the purpose of why we're doing what we're doing, then the to do list Can't wait, if it's not the right time, we don't have the right mental stage to be dealing with it.

If it means we have to take a walk and take a few hours off, then that's what we need to do. But it's a, it's that constant reminder of why am I doing what I'm doing? Why is this important to me? And what will it take for me to do it in the best mental state as possible?

Janine: you are so right. And, and I guess that's wrapped up in this, piece around helping people be seen and heard. Because we've all got so many stories that we tell ourselves. Uh, we've all got so many shoulds, can'ts. What if And you wrote recently it was a beautiful post that you put on [00:13:00] LinkedIn. and the bit that resonated with me was, this piece about stop shrinking yourself to make. Others feel comfortable can you just expand on that please for us?

Emmagness: Sure. this was really directed to women in particular. I'm not sure if men have the same challenge, but I know for most women, being raised to be quiet, to obey the rules, to be the good girl, is something that was rewarded. And when you spoke up or tried to move out of the good girl image, it was frowned upon and that has conditioned a lot of women to shrink themselves and I've seen this time and time again where I'm sitting around women who are absolutely intelligent and could literally transform how we do things and technology and all of that, but something makes us pause at times and not really amplify or talk about [00:14:00] the work we're doing and say I'm actually really good at this without feeling any, shame around self promotion.

So this came to me, Because a few weeks ago, something happened,

I was sitting in a room with a few people and one of the women said to me, Oh, I wish I was as good as you know, I went to school with someone and they're so successful now, but I feel if I talk about what I do, they'll think that I'm just trying to copy what they're doing and I'm afraid to lose that relationship.

So, the way I look at it, if that person is your friend, and if they are your friend and they want to cheer you on, they'll have no problem with you talking about what you do, taking up the space that you want to take up. But if they have a problem with that, then that means their discomfort should not be your discomfort.

Their discomfort means that there are things they need to work through, [00:15:00] and you need to focus on your comfort and what will work for you and what you need to advance yourself in a way that you can take up space in the way you define it. And I listened, there's this, feature I watched again a few, I think it's a few months ago now, which, this woman was talking about.

She's not intimidating. People are intimidated. She does not push anyone's boundaries. People's boundaries are pushed based on their insecurities and the way they view the world. So she will not tiptoe around people's insecurities because she's done the work to take up space. And she encourages people to do the same and not tiptoe around other people's insecurities.

So those things have really set with me and I've just observed how people present themselves and are confident and how owning your space and not shrinking yourself is actually good [00:16:00] for everyone that's looking to you for inspiration or knowledge for the wisdom that you have that no one else can possess because we're all unique, right?

Janine: Gosh, I love that I'm curious, Emmagness, have you, always been an individual that has been, empowered enough, strong enough to have your voice, to take up that own space, or has this been something that you've also had to identify? as an area to work on for yourself.

Emmagness: my mom loves telling this story and I think I always go back to it because I think that's where my came from. When I was, I think I was four or six, I insisted on going on an adult hike. with adults, and everyone just said, look, you're too young, you won't be able to go up the mountain and come back again, and I did it, I was so determined to do it, because I'd set my mind on that, and since then, my mom just says, since that moment, she knew that [00:17:00] I could do it.

do whatever I set my mind on. I was also really fortunate because I grew up surrounded by very powerful, strong, opinionated women you know, that were senior leaders in huge corporations. My, I've got an aunt, she's, she's late now, I'm sorry, my guru, who Was one of the first black women to do anything.

You think of something. She was the first black woman to do it. You think of, acting in theater productions. She was one of the first black women to be on stage and have a main character. So the background that I have, my aunt used to appear on ads when black women were not really appearing on TV at that time.

So the women that I grew up being surrounded by were women that didn't know what norm meant or you can't be this or you can't occupy that space. And I think that's [00:18:00] where the courage came from. So For as long as I can remember I've always been this way until about eight years ago So I lost this for a little bit.

Janine: Oh, wow. Where did the fearlessness disappear? What triggered that?

Emmagness: I think one of the things that A lot of people, including myself, underestimate and underestimated at the time was that moving countries has a psychological impact on a lot of things, confidence, the way you view things, the way the world interacts with you and how you interact with the world.

And my. version of the world had been an environment that is extremely affirming. I've been brought up and raised in a very affirming environment where if I said I wanted to, discover a mineral no one knows on this planet, my family would have been like, yay! And given me the resources and tools to do that.

And moving [00:19:00] to Australia, that affirming environment, I was treated off that affirming environment and I was in an environment where my family wasn't in. I had to navigate you know, new career journey. I love brand and marketing and I was told I couldn't do it. Then I pushed and pushed and pushed and did it, but it was so hard and it got to a point where I really, I think, I did get depressed and wanted to go back to Zimbabwe after about two years in Australia.

And I was on a call with my aunt and she She said to me, I sounded like I was in a cage, like I sounded caged. And that was a very interesting expression from her. And later on that week, I had another call with a friend of mine who is in South Africa, Nyasha, and she asked me why I was whispering.

And that was very strange for me. I've always, like, I've always been full of life. [00:20:00] But it came to a point where I was whispering. I was trying to really shrink myself. I didn't want any attention towards myself. I thought if I'm invisible, I can just do life and survive and maybe get on and hopefully get some recognition at work.

And after those two conversations, I I took a break from everything and sat with myself and realized that I was not the person that I've always been. Something had happened and I was in this cocoon and I was so uncomfortable. I was literally suffocating and I needed to get out. So I invested in coaching and to be honest, I tried, counseling initially, but I quickly realized that's not for me because I love to take action and be responsible for my outcomes.

So I ended up investing in coaching and I can tell you that was the best decision I made. I went through coaching. Got the empowerment back and my [00:21:00] voice back and as I was expanding and as I came out of my shell The people that had known me thought I was changing, but I actually wasn't changing I was just really going back to who I've always been It made a few people uncomfortable.

I lost a few friends

But I'm glad I did that. I Make that investment because it made me realize how far gone into a shell I've become and How I wasn't leaving my truth, which I'm glad I'm doing now

Janine: I love that. I'm sure you see it with, your clients. I certainly see it with many people that come into my world, This, absolute inner passion and fire for work, but combined with a fear of being seen.

Yeah. That feeling of not being good enough, I'm curious because I know you help a lot of people with this from that personal branding perspective for anybody listening in that may be [00:22:00] feeling like they're in a cage right now. That they are invisible. I talk about it being the world's best kept secret. What are a couple of tips, thoughts, ideas that you would share with listeners to start considering if that is how they're feeling?

Emmagness: there's an exercise I love doing That has helped me a lot and that helps a lot of the people that I work with and it's what I call, I think there's a lot of talk around rediscovering or reconnecting with your inner child. So there's a space in time, in all our lives, where we were inhibited.

So we thought, we knew that we could be anyone in the world, we could do anything. We would jump over chairs because we're not afraid we would get hurt. We were fearless. And then at some point in our lives, someone taught us To stop, someone told us, to sit down, to be quiet, to listen and not speak, to be, to [00:23:00] be seen and not heard.

I think a lot of us heard that when we were growing up. Be seen, not heard. and what that does is the passion, the intrinsic passion and motivators that we're born with, that are natural to us, they get really squashed down. And you align yourself to what's acceptable in society. So for some people, maybe the medical profession is what's more acceptable.

Maybe being a lawyer, maybe working as an accountant is more acceptable. And slowly that chips away at our core and what we naturally have as our intrinsic motivators, as our passion. So when the best exercise anyone can do is to take a moment, take a moment to sit with yourself when you know you won't be disturbed and think about a point in your life where you were absolutely joyful.

Think about what you were doing, how you were doing it, who was [00:24:00] surrounding you. And once you've got that enlightenment, it's important to then write down, because what we then discover is when you align with the things that made you happy at a specific point in time, you discover what your passion is, you discover what your motivations are, and then when you align that with the strengths and the experiences and the qualifications that you have, you You then come up with a purpose that suits what you were naturally meant to be all along.

Janine: I love that. I was visualizing myself dancing. I'm always, I always love dancing and it's funny. I literally found something on Facebook yesterday called, I don't know, it was like 90s dance and exercise. I'm like, Oh, I have to do that. Uh, and I'm in my happy place. Live music, dancing, just in uninhibited.

Love it. I'm curious just to ask one more question following on from that. Again, people listening who may be [00:25:00] connecting with that, but they still feel caged. They still feel stuck. what advice would you give to people to make that change? Because I often hear The change is the scary bit. again, from your experience, the clients that you've worked with, what would you say to people listening that might be feeling that that are going, Oh, I can see it. I can feel it, but I'm stuck. I can't get out.

Emmagness: invest in coaching. Invest in coaching. I don't believe life is meant to be done. alone, and we're not meant to carry certain burdens by ourselves. There are people that are equipped to help us carry these burdens to make them more manageable and to align ourselves with the purpose and the passion that we want to be having.

So that would be my ultimate advice, that invest in coaching. if you have to sacrifice not buying that dress or that pair of shoes for a few months, then It will be the best investment you can make if you can find the right person to [00:26:00] guide you through what you need to get out of that cocoon.

Because it's important to leave it I mean this is a bit morbid, but when you're on your deathbed not having regrets. Because you didn't live life the way you wanted. People are afraid of change. And there's actually a psychological explanation to it.

That people are afraid of change because you are entering into the unknown. And the unknown is scary, it is dark, it is unfamiliar, you don't know what's going to happen in the unknown, you might lose friendships, you might lose your job, your business might not go well, you might lose very important relationships you, but what happens in the unknown as well is that you're becoming someone that is Can leave life out loud in the way they want to leave and then when you're living life in your authenticity What then happens is that you are attracting people that are aligned with that?

Authenticity those values [00:27:00] that you have that passion that you have and you end up with a circle that is so much richer than you had

Janine: you're so right. I remember the first time I ever started working with a coach. I engaged two at the same time for two different reasons. I think I was about 38 39 and I was feeling really unhappy at work. I was feeling lost. I'd, you know, done everything I was supposed to do as a good girl in terms of the education, building the career. Finding a beautiful husband, having children. And I can still remember this moment of going, I'm still not happy that I'm still, I'm existing and I'm lost. And at that moment, I was started working with a couple of people. It cost me a fortune. I can still remember it was out of my own pocket. But [00:28:00] oh my goodness, I would not be where I'm at today if I hadn't have been brave enough to have those difficult conversations to face the stuff that was really holding me back. and for me now, I personally love when there's a moment of fear. I go, awesome, I'm about to learn something different it's either going to work and be amazingly successful or I'm going to learn something.

and people ask me about what made me do stuff. And I could never have predicted where I'm at now. I had zero plans to write books. There was no way it was on my agenda to run my own business. no plan at all to speak. And what I do know is that moment when I decided. Enough of the excuses,

enough of the waiting room, I have to unlock what I've been put on this planet to do. The moment I did that doors started opening and of course it hasn't been all [00:29:00] champagne popping moments. There's been some horrendous moments, but looking back I'm going, bloody hell, I got through that. I'm stronger than I, I thought I was, but I'm with you. It's if you're feeling stuck, if anyone listening in is feeling stuck, find someone to help you become unstuck because the other side of it is just magical. so thank you for, for sharing that. before we have to wrap up today, I do want to talk about it because you're an amazing coach. You're doing incredible stuff. I highly encourage anyone listening in to check out and Emmagness, follow her on LinkedIn. her posts will get you thinking from this personal perspective. And the other piece I do want to talk to is this work, this passion, this brand piece around inclusivity. Something that I think has to be raised and be bigger on people's agendas. Now, whether you're a big corporate and a big organization, or whether you're an individual setting out, the biggest gift That we [00:30:00] can give humanity in the planet right now is a willingness to get curious about our own unconscious biases and a willingness to have those changed because my fear right now, a Emmagness in the world that we're in right now is we are actually creating way more silos than there's ever been and I think it's out of fear. From your perspective of marketing, branding, this expertise in digital space, which again, we've all talked, we've all heard about the biases in AI and

technology. First up, what are you angry about right now? When you think about brands, when you think about businesses, when you think about technology, you know, as a woman of color, as someone that you've just shared, you came to Australia and you felt like you were put in a cage as someone that's invested to get out of that.

And now as someone that's making incredible ripples amongst the people that you work with and being recognized. for your work. is it that you want to change? What are you noticing?

[00:31:00] yes.

Emmagness: I have 3 examples of What made me lose sleep? and the first one is the advancement off I love a I love generative a I and a I in totality and I encourage a lot of people, particularly people of color to use it because it's learning and if we don't feed it information, someone else is feeding it information and that information is not going to be in our favor.

So recently, in October, we're in November now, so just last month, there was a survey carried out by, a recruitment company on the AI tools that a lot of recruitment agents are using in Australia, in the U. S., and most of these tools are biased towards White men. So if you are a brown woman or, you know, a person of color, if you are, if you're a white woman, [00:32:00] the algorithm favors you 30% to the 70 percent of the men.

So it's not really an advantage if you are a brown woman or a black woman. Forget it. Forget it. The algorithm naturally just removes if the name doesn't suit. Even if you remove the name, it can pick up the, experience that you've had, the organizations you have worked, the area that you live in, and it can deduce your ethnicity and your race from that.

So most organizations end up just hiring the same group of people because that's what AI keeps recommending. it blows my mind that most organizations are losing out on extremely great Great resources, extremely great talented people because they are leaving all that sorting out of resumes to an AI that's not trained to be objective.

So that's one thing. [00:33:00] The other thing is there are some brands that are trying to be inclusive and foster belonging among their target audiences. What I find lacking in those brands is that first of all, they don't employ recently I saw an ad, it was fixing very, very lovely ad glasses and there was a black woman on the ad and there were a lot of negative comments.

This is Australia. This is not what Australia looks like and while the brand has done the right thing by It's inclusive approach. My question on that was what have they done to support this model? Who's getting all this negative feedback? Does she have a support system? because that's important that's inclusivity It's not just slapping someone on an ad and leaving them What's the support that's now being built around that person and what's the education?

That brand is making to it audience [00:34:00] and to its, customers who are in the majority, that this is who we are as a brand. This is what we stand for. And this is what we will not stand for. So the fact that there are these negative comments and they allow us to stay on the page, that is not inclusivity. It does not encourage belonging in any way.

So you've got creative agents, again, that don't have anyone helping them check their blind spots. You've got marketing teams, branding teams, that don't have anyone helping them check their blind spots. And they're putting all this content out there without really checking on the impact it has on the people that they want to include in their targeting.

So, so it's, it's a lot of things. It's all these things. And, and it breaks my heart because It's so simple. It's so simple to be inclusive. We just all need to challenge our biases. We all have them. We all have them. When we recognize them, and we challenge them, and we get the right people to help us challenge those biases, [00:35:00] then everything becomes better.

We start seeing the gaps we're missing, the blind spots we have, Just think of it this way, Janine. The reason I'm so passionate about brands is because a brand has the power to shape people's perspectives and that's Huge power.

So imagine if it becomes normal to see someone like me speaking on stage with a thousand people, people will stop questioning if I'm there as a tokenism or if I'm there because I know what I'm doing, because when they hear me speak, notice, Oh, she's experienced. She knows what she's talking about.

She's got 20 years experience in strategic brand management. She definitely is an authority in the space. But if I never get an opportunity like that, if people that are diverse, people of colour never get an opportunity to be mainstream, it's always going to go back to questioning, oh, this is Australia, it's not meant for people like that.[00:36:00]

Because we only see them one dimensional and not in many dimensions.

Janine: Yeah, I can hear your passion. and I was sharing again before we started recording my very good friend, Kelly Slezer, who works in the digital space. She has a digital inclusivity project, where it's all about. Diversity and inclusion and, yes, from a, a race perspective, a color of skin and education, but also, you know, we throw in neurodiversity and people that are identifying with some form of disability.

Like it's such, it's such an enormous. opportunity and it's one that we should all be taking forward with us with a sense of curiosity. that piece that you said there around challenging blind spots. this is where the opportunity is. what I see and what I'm noticing is people are afraid to be challenged. But what if instead of challenging [00:37:00] blind spots, it was more about being curious to identify blind spots, like it's that word, right? I think, I see it a lot where, and maybe it's a human nature. I'm curious what your thoughts on this, because I, I do think about this a lot. And I'm going, what is it about human beings where. When someone's questioning, we feel it's challenging. We shut down versus that curiosity around, Oh, wow. Like it's all right. I think it's okay to go. I didn't even realize. That I jumped to that conclusion. I didn't even realize that I have shown a bias in my copy. I didn't even realize. And as opposed to being defensive about it, being willing to go, Oh my gosh, I need to relearn this.

Thank you for telling me. Thank you for letting me know, because that bias. for me, I know has been built because of childhood, generational stuff. I'm allowed to change it, but I can't change it unless someone [00:38:00] points it out to me. I can do my education. I can learn as much as I'm constantly doing every day. Equally, my experience of life is very different to your experience of life. And so, it's not about. Skin, age, education, school, we went to culture we grew up in, and yet it is. But if we really want to talk about diversity, it's this curiosity about being willing to learn from other people. you know, it's that willingness to, to relearn, to actually be okay on both fronts. Be okay to be able to let people know what you're noticing and being okay to receive it. From a perspective of evolution, change becoming better. curious as to your thoughts on that.

Emmagness: Yeah, I think that in the age of social media, it's so sad that the algorithm, you know, it aligns us with people that agree with us. but in real life, real life, people challenge each other and you grow that way. Unfortunately, if [00:39:00] you're always on social media and you see people that agree with you, you've got such a narrow view of what real life is like.

And when you go out in the world and someone disagrees with you, it's a shock because not everyone thinks That way, in your mind, everyone agrees with you. And I've got a really good friend of mine, um, Liz Irvine, she talks about gently waking up the bear. Don't poke the bear, gently wake up the bear. And I love that because it's, I'll give the example of the gender pay gap, right?

A lot of men that. Get into this discussion, say, Oh, we feel attacked. We feel like we have to feel guilty that we earn more than women. So the natural response is defensiveness and the walls come up and they don't want to converse. But if they are brought into the conversation and we have this conversation in a respectful manner.

Then you're [00:40:00] gently waking up, you're gently waking up the bear. In regards to inclusivity, we don't want to see forced inclusion. Inclusivity is making sure that for brands, for example, the target audience that you want to reach, they are fully represented in all your branding and marketing materials, in your messaging, in how you present yourself to the world.

That's all it is. If the target audience looks the same, then that's what it is. But there's a thing about them bringing people into a conversation and not forcing it on people and making sure that the conversations are respectful and also extending grace. As you have said, the way that I've grown up is different from the way that you've grown up, the way most people have grown up.

I've got two really good friends as well and they are Two white women and race is important here and Paulson and Sandra Taylor and there are certain things that I would highlight that they had not been thought of before and now they're [00:41:00] the ones that come to me and say, Oh, I can't believe that they've got an all white panel on a topic that they could have invited this person, this other person, or they don't have anyone representing, they're having a talk on disability, but they actually don't have anyone with a physical disability on the panel. So, they've started seeing those things and it's, and they're things they've taught me that I've started seeing as well and, and challenge and appreciate.

So, if we Accept that as human beings, our map, territory in our brain is not the same and that's okay. We are all on a journey, we are all learning, we're trying to do the best that we can with the information that we have. And when that information changes, then we can try and be better. I think Maya Angelou said that, and that's my approach to life, that There are no enemies here, we are all trying to do the best that we can with the information that [00:42:00] we have.

How can we then draw in people that have diverse perspectives from the way we think and the way we operate so that the world we're all living in can benefit more when we have applications and branding and conversations and messaging that's diverse, inclusive and

fosters belonging

Janine: Yeah, I love everything. What a beautiful analogy, gently waking up the bear. As we wrap up, and you think about the work that you've done on that branding piece, on that inclusivity piece, when you reflect on the clients you've worked with a main list, who inspires you the most when you look at the work and the journey that you've done, where do you sit there and go, Oh, change is happening.

Emmagness: from a coaching perspective, there was a woman I worked with who struggled to [00:43:00] define what she wanted out of life because she, she has always worked in a certain way and in a certain field. she loved using her hands though, but never got an opportunity to do that because that wouldn't make money.

That was the narrative, that if she uses her hands, that wouldn't make money. And, In discovering her passion and what motivates her, she started using her hands and is now making jewellery. And in making jewellery, because she's got, she now has that inclusive mindset. She uses diverse models that wear her rings or her earrings.

And, and it's a beauty to watch. She recently, moved out of Australia and went back to her home country. Which broke my heart because she became a really good friend. But that's what happens when people find, when they go back to who they've always meant to be. They find themselves and do work that lights them up.

The other one is a brand in the not for profit [00:44:00] sector and they work with women that, need help giving birth. So they do a lot of, translations, safety in giving birth, all those things that we wouldn't think of because just go to a hospital and give birth. And what I love about them is that they challenged themselves.

So they challenged themselves in, Oh, we're not sure if our imagery is right. We're not sure if this will perpetuate bias. Is this Is this fair? Is this kind? is this equitable? Would this promote the right attitude towards this group of people? And it was so much fun working with them because we, changed, we refined the messaging a little bit, we refined the imagery, and made sure that the representation of Their target audience online was done very respectfully and in a way that offered dignity to the audience that they wanted to talk to.

Those would be my two favourite ones.

Janine: Oh, [00:45:00] fabulous. And isn't it wonderful when you start seeing the impact of your work and that is that ripple effect that you are creating. And Emmagness, I could talk to you for hours, I really want to thank you for the work that you do. You've got a massive fan here in your work. And if

there's anything I can do moving forward, please keep in touch. thank you so much for your time. And Emmagness, I look forward to one day meeting you in

person.

Emmagness: Ha ha ha. That would be fun. Thank

you for having me Julie. so much. My pleasure.

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