1 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:07,969 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the 2 00:00:07,970 --> 00:00:10,349 Operations Room, a podcast for CEOs. 3 00:00:10,350 --> 00:00:12,049 I am Brandon Bensinger joined by my 4 00:00:12,050 --> 00:00:13,429 lovely co as Bethany Iris. 5 00:00:13,430 --> 00:00:14,509 How are things going? 6 00:00:14,510 --> 00:00:16,579 Bethany Hey, I'm back to being 7 00:00:16,580 --> 00:00:17,479 lovely. 8 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,339 I always notice which way the intro 9 00:00:19,340 --> 00:00:20,989 is. Things are okay. 10 00:00:20,990 --> 00:00:22,339 I am not the Christmas spirit. 11 00:00:22,340 --> 00:00:23,989 Do you have a Christmas tree up yet? 12 00:00:23,990 --> 00:00:25,579 Yes, we have a Christmas tree. 13 00:00:25,580 --> 00:00:27,469 So I'm allergic to actual Christmas 14 00:00:27,470 --> 00:00:28,879 trees. So whatever pine trees or 15 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,169 what have you. So we can actually 16 00:00:30,170 --> 00:00:31,699 add them, which is a boon, to be 17 00:00:31,700 --> 00:00:32,809 honest, because then I have to deal 18 00:00:32,810 --> 00:00:34,849 with a buying one, be dealing 19 00:00:34,850 --> 00:00:36,109 with all the pine needles everywhere 20 00:00:36,110 --> 00:00:37,969 and so on. So we have a fake 21 00:00:37,970 --> 00:00:39,379 tree, the same tree that goes up 22 00:00:39,380 --> 00:00:41,449 every year. We actually just got our 23 00:00:41,450 --> 00:00:42,289 I don't know what you call it. 24 00:00:42,290 --> 00:00:43,669 They give it like this massive 25 00:00:43,670 --> 00:00:45,889 bundle of all the crafts 26 00:00:45,890 --> 00:00:46,789 that the kids have done over the 27 00:00:46,790 --> 00:00:47,989 past three months. 28 00:00:47,990 --> 00:00:49,879 So it is a huge batch of stuff. 29 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:50,929 We always wonder what to do with 30 00:00:50,930 --> 00:00:52,339 these things, right? Like, this 31 00:00:52,340 --> 00:00:54,049 thing. So you have to pass through 32 00:00:54,050 --> 00:00:55,129 it, you know, what are the golden 33 00:00:55,130 --> 00:00:56,659 nugget? So you want to save and then 34 00:00:56,660 --> 00:00:58,369 the rest of it you have to obviously 35 00:00:58,370 --> 00:00:59,599 put through recycling. 36 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:00,709 But you have to gently put it 37 00:01:00,710 --> 00:01:01,549 through. 38 00:01:01,550 --> 00:01:03,289 Are you to suddenly put it through 39 00:01:03,290 --> 00:01:05,329 and nobody can discover, 40 00:01:05,330 --> 00:01:06,949 but yet they will never remember it 41 00:01:06,950 --> 00:01:08,119 again. So as long as you do it 42 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:09,259 without getting caught, it's 43 00:01:09,260 --> 00:01:10,579 absolutely fine. 44 00:01:10,580 --> 00:01:11,809 It just isn't feeling Christmasy 45 00:01:11,810 --> 00:01:12,859 here. I don't quite know what I'm 46 00:01:12,860 --> 00:01:14,629 taking time off work, so I feel like 47 00:01:14,630 --> 00:01:16,759 I'm yeah, I'm just in this limbo 48 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:18,709 of work is really, 49 00:01:18,710 --> 00:01:20,239 really, really busy. 50 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,099 And yet the sun came 51 00:01:22,100 --> 00:01:23,989 up at 730 in the 52 00:01:23,990 --> 00:01:25,879 morning. It goes down before 53 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:27,499 four. 54 00:01:27,500 --> 00:01:29,119 My whole body wants to cuckoo. 55 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,279 And yet work is like the busiest 56 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:32,239 period of the year. 57 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,249 I always find this really difficult 58 00:01:34,250 --> 00:01:37,069 and we still have about four 59 00:01:37,070 --> 00:01:38,929 deals to sign that are going 60 00:01:38,930 --> 00:01:41,389 to happen some time between now 61 00:01:41,390 --> 00:01:43,219 and the 31st, which again 62 00:01:43,220 --> 00:01:44,719 means that you can't entirely 63 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:45,829 breathe out. 64 00:01:45,830 --> 00:01:47,839 And they're big enterprise deals. 65 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,119 They have been in close 66 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,669 plans since October 67 00:01:52,670 --> 00:01:54,409 with everybody saying we want to 68 00:01:54,410 --> 00:01:55,759 close before Christmas. 69 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,259 Everybody going 100%. 70 00:01:57,260 --> 00:01:58,159 We're going to close before 71 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,079 Christmas. And then it just slips 72 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:01,069 and then it just seems a little bit 73 00:02:01,070 --> 00:02:02,149 more. And this little list, the 74 00:02:02,150 --> 00:02:03,349 31st. 75 00:02:03,350 --> 00:02:04,459 That's a lot of pressure. 76 00:02:04,460 --> 00:02:06,309 Yeah. And then 77 00:02:06,310 --> 00:02:07,159 something I want to talk to you 78 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,439 about, Brandon, was our strategy 79 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:10,279 days. 80 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,229 We've done strategy in 81 00:02:12,230 --> 00:02:14,209 October and we've done strategy 82 00:02:14,210 --> 00:02:15,319 in January. 83 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,239 And this year, maybe because I 84 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,099 joined middle of September, 85 00:02:19,100 --> 00:02:20,599 we've ended up pushing the strategy 86 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,819 date back to January again. 87 00:02:22,820 --> 00:02:24,799 So not only was there board 88 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,659 meetings, budget planning, 89 00:02:26,660 --> 00:02:28,609 end of year wrap up, I 90 00:02:28,610 --> 00:02:30,169 also spent a lot of yesterday 91 00:02:30,170 --> 00:02:32,479 thinking through our strategy 92 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,609 day and format and pre 93 00:02:34,610 --> 00:02:37,159 reads and questions to cover 94 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,259 for when we 95 00:02:39,260 --> 00:02:40,489 come back. 96 00:02:40,490 --> 00:02:42,079 When do you do your strategy days 97 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:43,579 and how do you do your strategy days 98 00:02:43,580 --> 00:02:44,959 or what way do you think works the 99 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:45,709 best? 100 00:02:45,710 --> 00:02:47,779 I would say that I feel like the 101 00:02:47,780 --> 00:02:49,639 December team 102 00:02:49,640 --> 00:02:51,259 week, I think to me is the right 103 00:02:51,260 --> 00:02:52,669 time generally to do the stuff 104 00:02:52,670 --> 00:02:54,529 because you want a time period where 105 00:02:54,530 --> 00:02:56,449 clearly there is time and space 106 00:02:56,450 --> 00:02:58,519 to reflect on what has happened. 107 00:02:58,520 --> 00:02:59,509 I mean, I think this whole 108 00:02:59,510 --> 00:03:00,949 reflection on how is the year gone? 109 00:03:00,950 --> 00:03:02,119 What does it look like? 110 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:03,079 How is it felt to us? 111 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:04,249 What results have we seen or not 112 00:03:04,250 --> 00:03:06,079 seen? And the learning's taken away 113 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:07,909 from that very clearly is kind of 114 00:03:07,910 --> 00:03:09,589 like a December mojo thing, I would 115 00:03:09,590 --> 00:03:10,999 say. Your vibe in the stuffing, not 116 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:11,839 a vibe you're going to get in 117 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:13,819 January where it's like, go, go, go. 118 00:03:14,870 --> 00:03:16,729 The second piece is the culture part 119 00:03:16,730 --> 00:03:18,259 of it, which is I always used to 120 00:03:18,260 --> 00:03:20,479 call this strategy day or strategy 121 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,609 days or strategy week or whatever. 122 00:03:22,610 --> 00:03:24,079 And at some point somebody was 123 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:25,699 telling me like, Look, Brenton, 124 00:03:25,700 --> 00:03:26,899 every day is Strategy Day. 125 00:03:26,900 --> 00:03:28,039 Every day you should be thinking in 126 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:29,029 the back of your head around What 127 00:03:29,030 --> 00:03:29,869 are we doing? 128 00:03:29,870 --> 00:03:31,219 And it puts a lot of pressure on the 129 00:03:31,220 --> 00:03:32,779 week itself as well to like somehow 130 00:03:32,780 --> 00:03:34,909 deliver some transformative 131 00:03:34,910 --> 00:03:36,979 new strategy or better strategy 132 00:03:36,980 --> 00:03:38,029 or whatever you want to call it, I 133 00:03:38,030 --> 00:03:38,869 guess. 134 00:03:38,870 --> 00:03:40,999 So we ended up calling it Team week, 135 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,069 and Team Week is reflective of 136 00:03:43,070 --> 00:03:44,869 the team itself, the reflection on 137 00:03:44,870 --> 00:03:46,819 the year and the team thinking about 138 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:47,869 the year ahead of us. 139 00:03:47,870 --> 00:03:48,949 It's interesting. I like that. 140 00:03:48,950 --> 00:03:50,929 I agree in the 141 00:03:50,930 --> 00:03:52,909 strategy is every day and 142 00:03:52,910 --> 00:03:54,979 also so the new way 143 00:03:54,980 --> 00:03:56,869 that we're meeting as an exact team 144 00:03:56,870 --> 00:03:58,009 is we meet twice a week. 145 00:03:58,010 --> 00:03:59,389 And at first I was like, my God, 146 00:03:59,390 --> 00:04:00,169 that's a lot of meetings. 147 00:04:00,170 --> 00:04:01,849 But actually it works really well 148 00:04:01,850 --> 00:04:03,799 because we have two maximum 149 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,719 one hour meetings a week and I 150 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:07,069 say maximum because sometimes we're 151 00:04:07,070 --> 00:04:09,289 done in 35 minutes 152 00:04:09,290 --> 00:04:10,519 and other times we take the full 153 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,339 hour and the first 154 00:04:13,340 --> 00:04:15,229 meeting of the week, we 155 00:04:15,230 --> 00:04:17,239 do our AWB R so Weekly business 156 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,189 review and so 157 00:04:19,190 --> 00:04:20,660 the we are has. 158 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:23,619 Forecast pipeline 159 00:04:23,620 --> 00:04:25,539 escudos 160 00:04:25,540 --> 00:04:27,579 cash collected, 161 00:04:27,580 --> 00:04:29,169 which is mostly like a help needed 162 00:04:29,170 --> 00:04:30,579 if somebody you know isn't. 163 00:04:30,580 --> 00:04:31,719 We need to escalate that somebody is 164 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,609 not paying, that they're ignoring 165 00:04:33,610 --> 00:04:34,479 us or whatever. 166 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,099 We have one of those the other week. 167 00:04:36,100 --> 00:04:37,029 I don't know if I should be sharing 168 00:04:37,030 --> 00:04:37,959 this or not, but I'm not sharing 169 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:38,829 names. We have one of the other 170 00:04:38,830 --> 00:04:40,329 week. We just wasn't paying, wasn't 171 00:04:40,330 --> 00:04:41,259 paying. 172 00:04:41,260 --> 00:04:42,729 And there's escalated to me and I 173 00:04:42,730 --> 00:04:44,259 was prepared for this really tough 174 00:04:44,260 --> 00:04:45,279 conversation. 175 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:47,049 And I just said, so basically, let 176 00:04:47,050 --> 00:04:49,059 me explain how we see it anyway, 177 00:04:49,060 --> 00:04:50,139 okay, I guess we have to pay. 178 00:04:50,140 --> 00:04:51,279 And then he paid. 179 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:53,769 It's like this conversation 180 00:04:53,770 --> 00:04:55,539 I've ever had. 181 00:04:55,540 --> 00:04:56,649 Okay. Yeah. 182 00:04:56,650 --> 00:04:58,329 Yeah. So that was amazing. 183 00:04:58,330 --> 00:04:59,709 Sometimes you just have to ask. 184 00:05:01,870 --> 00:05:03,519 I was like pushing back to junior 185 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,019 people and I guess maybe just having 186 00:05:05,020 --> 00:05:06,009 a senior person do it. 187 00:05:06,010 --> 00:05:07,299 I honestly have no idea. 188 00:05:07,300 --> 00:05:09,519 Or we had to explained it well. 189 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,079 Explain the invoice in a different 190 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:11,739 way. 191 00:05:11,740 --> 00:05:12,849 Yeah. 192 00:05:12,850 --> 00:05:14,199 Yeah, exactly. 193 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:15,249 Pretty much. That was. I was just 194 00:05:15,250 --> 00:05:17,319 like, This is what you're paid, 195 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:18,999 this is what you need to pay. 196 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,949 And he went, okay, 197 00:05:20,950 --> 00:05:22,359 So we talked about like cash 198 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,489 collection, monthly active 199 00:05:24,490 --> 00:05:27,069 users or I guess weekly active users 200 00:05:27,070 --> 00:05:28,959 of a couple of different products, 201 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:29,889 that kind of stuff. 202 00:05:29,890 --> 00:05:31,809 And so we, we run through 203 00:05:31,810 --> 00:05:33,069 it. Sometimes there's a 204 00:05:33,070 --> 00:05:34,509 conversation, sometimes there's not 205 00:05:34,510 --> 00:05:35,709 much of a conversation at all. 206 00:05:35,710 --> 00:05:37,689 So it can be anything from 207 00:05:37,690 --> 00:05:38,919 ten minutes to half an hour 208 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:40,119 depending on if something's 209 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:41,409 surfaced. 210 00:05:41,410 --> 00:05:43,029 And then we bring up whatever other 211 00:05:43,030 --> 00:05:44,079 topics we need. 212 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:45,399 And then we have a second meeting on 213 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,439 a Thursday where it 214 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,509 is whatever topics 215 00:05:49,510 --> 00:05:50,589 we need to cover as a group. 216 00:05:50,590 --> 00:05:52,869 But that will often, 217 00:05:52,870 --> 00:05:54,799 if there aren't any, just like base 218 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,279 stuff, will just become 219 00:05:57,280 --> 00:05:58,779 discussions over a topic that 220 00:05:58,780 --> 00:06:00,069 somebody is thinking about. 221 00:06:00,070 --> 00:06:01,119 And so we have like these kind of 222 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,129 like micro 223 00:06:03,130 --> 00:06:05,049 strategy chats. 224 00:06:05,050 --> 00:06:06,909 So we're working 225 00:06:06,910 --> 00:06:08,619 through and untangling something on 226 00:06:08,620 --> 00:06:10,659 a very regular basis, and that seems 227 00:06:10,660 --> 00:06:12,909 to be working well 228 00:06:12,910 --> 00:06:15,249 and not having it be as structured. 229 00:06:15,250 --> 00:06:16,809 So generally I think you're on to 230 00:06:16,810 --> 00:06:18,069 something here because I found a 231 00:06:18,070 --> 00:06:20,379 similar strand eventually, 232 00:06:20,380 --> 00:06:21,789 and it took me a while to realize 233 00:06:21,790 --> 00:06:22,959 what was happening and why it was 234 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:24,759 happening, but very similar thing, 235 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,409 which is we had a structured 236 00:06:26,410 --> 00:06:27,739 leadership meeting which was 90 237 00:06:27,740 --> 00:06:28,779 minutes, which eventually turned 238 00:06:28,780 --> 00:06:30,549 into a two hour block once a week 239 00:06:30,550 --> 00:06:32,289 that we would have a two hour block 240 00:06:32,290 --> 00:06:34,299 would be half kind of like 241 00:06:34,300 --> 00:06:36,459 our stuff. So the key KPIs 242 00:06:36,460 --> 00:06:37,749 of the business, making sure that 243 00:06:37,750 --> 00:06:39,669 we're on that, tracking that 244 00:06:39,670 --> 00:06:41,169 and accountable to that and looking 245 00:06:41,170 --> 00:06:42,459 at the gaps, why they were happening 246 00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:44,049 and kind of assigning out kind of 247 00:06:44,050 --> 00:06:45,579 outcomes and next steps to solve 248 00:06:45,580 --> 00:06:46,509 issues. 249 00:06:46,510 --> 00:06:47,469 And then the second half, that 250 00:06:47,470 --> 00:06:48,789 meeting was kind of a 251 00:06:48,790 --> 00:06:49,779 cross-functional problem that we 252 00:06:49,780 --> 00:06:51,639 were having where we had pre reads 253 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,409 coming into those meetings to 254 00:06:53,410 --> 00:06:54,759 discuss a particular topic that was 255 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:56,049 well set up or structured in the 256 00:06:56,050 --> 00:06:57,369 sense of here's the pre read, here's 257 00:06:57,370 --> 00:06:59,049 what the issue is, here's a bunch of 258 00:06:59,050 --> 00:07:00,279 the thoughts behind it. 259 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:01,689 Now collectively, let's get together 260 00:07:01,690 --> 00:07:02,949 and have a structured conversation 261 00:07:02,950 --> 00:07:04,809 as to how to get to know, cover 262 00:07:04,810 --> 00:07:06,369 a set of next steps that can put 263 00:07:06,370 --> 00:07:08,379 this problem to bed 264 00:07:08,380 --> 00:07:09,309 so we never see it again 265 00:07:09,310 --> 00:07:10,209 effectively. 266 00:07:10,210 --> 00:07:12,219 So we would do this and it 267 00:07:12,220 --> 00:07:13,539 kind of worked and it was kind of 268 00:07:13,540 --> 00:07:15,459 okay. And at some 269 00:07:15,460 --> 00:07:17,649 point I think the SEO founder 270 00:07:17,650 --> 00:07:19,299 kicked off a different thing almost 271 00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:20,649 in a way, like essentially getting 272 00:07:20,650 --> 00:07:21,819 together for coffee. 273 00:07:21,820 --> 00:07:23,109 And it wasn't the entire leadership 274 00:07:23,110 --> 00:07:24,819 team, it was just the C-suite. 275 00:07:24,820 --> 00:07:26,019 And at that point there was four of 276 00:07:26,020 --> 00:07:28,239 us having this coffee and 277 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,039 completely unstructured, throwing 278 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:31,449 out thoughts and having ideas. 279 00:07:31,450 --> 00:07:33,729 And the power of that conversation 280 00:07:33,730 --> 00:07:35,379 ultimately, I think was better than 281 00:07:35,380 --> 00:07:37,329 our structured meeting in terms of 282 00:07:37,330 --> 00:07:38,979 the thoughts were having that were 283 00:07:38,980 --> 00:07:40,269 much more organic, much more 284 00:07:40,270 --> 00:07:41,439 creative, much more riffing. 285 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,209 I would say there's a different feel 286 00:07:43,210 --> 00:07:44,769 to having a discussion where you're 287 00:07:44,770 --> 00:07:46,539 kind of bouncing off each other, 288 00:07:46,540 --> 00:07:48,459 where it's not geared up as like 289 00:07:48,460 --> 00:07:50,739 this thing of like, okay, we have 290 00:07:50,740 --> 00:07:51,999 a pre read and it's a big 291 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:53,759 conversation everyone's ready for. 292 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:54,729 I there's a bit of like defensive 293 00:07:54,730 --> 00:07:56,649 posturing and 294 00:07:56,650 --> 00:07:57,849 all that other stuff that comes with 295 00:07:57,850 --> 00:07:59,409 structured meetings ultimately for 296 00:07:59,410 --> 00:08:01,209 us and ultimately for the company. 297 00:08:01,210 --> 00:08:02,529 That's where we passed it down to 298 00:08:02,530 --> 00:08:04,389 eventually, which is, okay, let's 299 00:08:04,390 --> 00:08:06,279 do our WB hours and 300 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,049 let's have this coffee chat and open 301 00:08:08,050 --> 00:08:09,039 up to the rest of leadership as 302 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:09,969 well. I'll have this kind of like 303 00:08:09,970 --> 00:08:11,469 wider discussion or that that is 304 00:08:11,470 --> 00:08:12,879 more unstructured. 305 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:14,529 So I think eventually we found a 306 00:08:14,530 --> 00:08:16,419 router, a route to kind of 307 00:08:16,420 --> 00:08:17,379 what you're doing. 308 00:08:17,380 --> 00:08:19,389 And what we've also done 309 00:08:19,390 --> 00:08:20,469 to have this slightly more 310 00:08:20,470 --> 00:08:22,569 structured conversations is we do 311 00:08:22,570 --> 00:08:24,459 a MVR once 312 00:08:24,460 --> 00:08:25,449 a month. 313 00:08:25,450 --> 00:08:27,519 And how that works 314 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,919 is we have 315 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:31,789 a set of ready made 316 00:08:31,790 --> 00:08:33,579 slides or, you know, like areas that 317 00:08:33,580 --> 00:08:35,019 we look at. It's like basically 318 00:08:35,020 --> 00:08:36,519 similar to what we share with the 319 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,579 board. So financial performance 320 00:08:39,580 --> 00:08:41,558 forecast, pipeline 321 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,479 skills, actuals again, and then 322 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:44,439 the kind of the equivalent you can 323 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,089 see where my my spike is. 324 00:08:46,090 --> 00:08:47,739 I like that's looking at where's the 325 00:08:47,740 --> 00:08:49,449 money and are we getting more money? 326 00:08:49,450 --> 00:08:50,919 But then we have similar ones for 327 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,469 for product and 328 00:08:53,470 --> 00:08:56,049 people in engineering and then 329 00:08:56,050 --> 00:08:58,059 we try and keep that to like 330 00:08:58,060 --> 00:09:00,309 maximum 30 slides 331 00:09:00,310 --> 00:09:01,839 so that it's really all that 332 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,729 actually matters 333 00:09:03,730 --> 00:09:04,989 and it's pretty standard. 334 00:09:04,990 --> 00:09:06,909 So because it's like I think 335 00:09:06,910 --> 00:09:09,189 people forget that it's creating 336 00:09:09,190 --> 00:09:11,319 slides is not only onerous 337 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:12,489 on the person creating them, but 338 00:09:12,490 --> 00:09:13,749 it's onerous on the person who has 339 00:09:13,750 --> 00:09:15,609 to read them. And so it's down to 340 00:09:15,610 --> 00:09:16,659 the person creating them to make 341 00:09:16,660 --> 00:09:17,799 sure that they're sharing the most 342 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:19,959 important information rather than 343 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:21,749 all the information. 344 00:09:21,750 --> 00:09:23,339 And so it's actually hard to keep it 345 00:09:23,340 --> 00:09:25,499 limited to what we need. 346 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:26,999 People tend to sneak in a little bit 347 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,469 more and then the feedback is it's 348 00:09:28,470 --> 00:09:30,299 gotten to getting too long and it's 349 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:32,049 hurting my brain and then like strip 350 00:09:32,050 --> 00:09:34,739 stuff out again. And then we have 351 00:09:34,740 --> 00:09:36,659 in certain areas where we're 352 00:09:36,660 --> 00:09:39,269 working through harder 353 00:09:39,270 --> 00:09:41,969 problems, bits of analysis. 354 00:09:41,970 --> 00:09:44,729 And so anyhow, I read 355 00:09:44,730 --> 00:09:47,009 the whole deck ahead of time 356 00:09:47,010 --> 00:09:49,049 and then think about 357 00:09:49,050 --> 00:09:51,419 the themes, the topics 358 00:09:51,420 --> 00:09:53,459 we need to resolve and 359 00:09:53,460 --> 00:09:55,289 my analysis on it. 360 00:09:55,290 --> 00:09:57,389 And so then the 361 00:09:57,390 --> 00:09:59,279 agenda basically changes 362 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:00,389 every month. 363 00:10:00,390 --> 00:10:02,159 We do like a very quick run through 364 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,019 of how's everybody's what do we 365 00:10:04,020 --> 00:10:05,729 need to know about everybody's area? 366 00:10:05,730 --> 00:10:07,619 And then we cover one, two, three 367 00:10:07,620 --> 00:10:09,719 topics in detail 368 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,759 and I'll work through the data 369 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,439 and what other people have said and 370 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,749 the analysis that they've shared 371 00:10:15,750 --> 00:10:18,959 come up with a framing. 372 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:20,069 And then we work it through. 373 00:10:20,070 --> 00:10:21,749 And so that's almost like we're 374 00:10:21,750 --> 00:10:23,249 dealing in a way, again, with some 375 00:10:23,250 --> 00:10:26,009 of the strategy stuff monthly. 376 00:10:26,010 --> 00:10:27,839 And then for this monthly review, 377 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:29,579 it's again with the leadership team 378 00:10:29,580 --> 00:10:31,439 and the slide creation of who's 379 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:32,969 creating that is each the functional 380 00:10:32,970 --> 00:10:34,469 leaders doing their pieces and then 381 00:10:34,470 --> 00:10:36,359 passing that together or how does 382 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:37,229 that happen? 383 00:10:37,230 --> 00:10:39,149 So some of it is like a large 384 00:10:39,150 --> 00:10:39,929 chunk of it is. 385 00:10:39,930 --> 00:10:41,369 And because it's the same stuff that 386 00:10:41,370 --> 00:10:42,989 we're sending to the board. 387 00:10:42,990 --> 00:10:44,279 And then there'll be the functional 388 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,109 leaders will 389 00:10:46,110 --> 00:10:48,119 have maybe a little bit extra. 390 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:49,739 That isn't stuff that goes to the 391 00:10:49,740 --> 00:10:52,079 board like monthly user 392 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:53,579 active users is not something that 393 00:10:53,580 --> 00:10:55,469 the board is caring about. 394 00:10:55,470 --> 00:10:56,999 I think that's a fantastic idea 395 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:58,349 because you're doing two things 396 00:10:58,350 --> 00:10:59,909 quite usefully actually, which is 397 00:10:59,910 --> 00:11:01,169 every single month you're on a 398 00:11:01,170 --> 00:11:03,119 pathway to the quarters review 399 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:04,949 with the board in very similar 400 00:11:04,950 --> 00:11:07,019 format. So you are as a leadership 401 00:11:07,020 --> 00:11:08,939 team being accountable and tracking 402 00:11:08,940 --> 00:11:10,049 to the progression of the company in 403 00:11:10,050 --> 00:11:11,789 the same kind of progression that 404 00:11:11,790 --> 00:11:12,779 the board is going to want to see at 405 00:11:12,780 --> 00:11:13,679 the end of the quarter. 406 00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:14,849 So by the time you get to the end of 407 00:11:14,850 --> 00:11:16,649 that quarter, you have to do nothing 408 00:11:16,650 --> 00:11:18,059 special at that point because you've 409 00:11:18,060 --> 00:11:19,799 been tracking this month to month up 410 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,449 until that point, which is great. 411 00:11:21,450 --> 00:11:23,579 The second bit of 412 00:11:23,580 --> 00:11:25,409 the strategic analysis on a monthly 413 00:11:25,410 --> 00:11:27,269 basis, there has to be some place, 414 00:11:27,270 --> 00:11:28,439 the organization where that occurs 415 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:29,519 because it's not going to happen in 416 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:30,749 your weekly sessions and it has to 417 00:11:30,750 --> 00:11:31,799 happen somewhere. 418 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:32,969 And then it becomes a question of do 419 00:11:32,970 --> 00:11:34,679 you do it monthly or do you do a 420 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:35,639 quarterly? 421 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,679 In my previous company 422 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:40,109 we did it more on a quarterly basis. 423 00:11:40,110 --> 00:11:42,089 However, we also had another 424 00:11:42,090 --> 00:11:43,769 meeting that was happening, which is 425 00:11:43,770 --> 00:11:45,749 every cross-functional OKR 426 00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:47,849 team where leadership was involved 427 00:11:47,850 --> 00:11:49,679 in those OKR teams as well. 428 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:51,629 We would basically have the OKR 429 00:11:51,630 --> 00:11:53,339 teams come together and basically 430 00:11:53,340 --> 00:11:54,839 present their progress for the 431 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,279 month. So we had four 432 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:57,569 cross-functional teams and therefore 433 00:11:57,570 --> 00:11:59,759 we had four kind of monthly reviews 434 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:01,289 on our progress. 435 00:12:01,290 --> 00:12:02,549 And maybe that's a slightly 436 00:12:02,550 --> 00:12:03,569 different thing that we're talking 437 00:12:03,570 --> 00:12:05,279 about, but it's another batch of 438 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,509 meetings that are tracking the 439 00:12:06,510 --> 00:12:07,639 progress of the company. 440 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,479 In this case, it's on the what 441 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:10,649 you define as the most important 442 00:12:10,650 --> 00:12:11,969 things in the business to progress 443 00:12:11,970 --> 00:12:13,919 on. So I'm not sure what you make of 444 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:14,879 that. 445 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:15,679 It's just really interesting. 446 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:17,819 This is how every business runs. 447 00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:19,799 And I'm not even convinced that 448 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,699 what we're doing is perfect. 449 00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:22,589 You know, I don't think there is 450 00:12:22,590 --> 00:12:23,609 such a thing as perfect. 451 00:12:23,610 --> 00:12:24,659 I mean, it sounds reasonable to me. 452 00:12:24,660 --> 00:12:26,339 Basically, I haven't done it. 453 00:12:26,340 --> 00:12:27,659 It comes down to the culture of the 454 00:12:27,660 --> 00:12:29,669 business. And I suspect 455 00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:32,099 that what the meetings 456 00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:34,199 are and when they're held 457 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,659 is less important than 458 00:12:36,660 --> 00:12:38,939 how effective the meetings are. 459 00:12:38,940 --> 00:12:40,319 And it's almost like, how do you get 460 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,149 to the point of efficacy 461 00:12:42,150 --> 00:12:44,039 rather than copying somebody 462 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:45,909 else's schedule. 463 00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:46,859 This is where the culture of the 464 00:12:46,860 --> 00:12:48,389 company and the particular trappings 465 00:12:48,390 --> 00:12:49,739 of the company comes in, because we 466 00:12:49,740 --> 00:12:51,719 had a very good, healthy culture 467 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:52,929 around accountability for the 468 00:12:52,930 --> 00:12:53,969 doctors. 469 00:12:53,970 --> 00:12:56,159 There was the teams that 470 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:57,329 drove the process. 471 00:12:57,330 --> 00:12:58,439 I would say, behind doing this. 472 00:12:58,440 --> 00:12:59,939 Cross-functional monthly reviews are 473 00:12:59,940 --> 00:13:01,349 progress check ins. 474 00:13:01,350 --> 00:13:03,269 And they put in a good, 475 00:13:03,270 --> 00:13:04,619 clear effort to ensure they could 476 00:13:04,620 --> 00:13:06,449 articulate that in terms of where 477 00:13:06,450 --> 00:13:08,369 the initiatives were at, where the 478 00:13:08,370 --> 00:13:10,349 results were at, what the month 479 00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:11,639 had looked like, what the next month 480 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:12,689 ahead would look like. 481 00:13:12,690 --> 00:13:14,639 And those sessions, from a efficacy 482 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,439 standpoint, I thought were really 483 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:17,609 super valuable and very, very 484 00:13:17,610 --> 00:13:18,449 useful. 485 00:13:18,450 --> 00:13:19,739 Previously, I have spent a 486 00:13:19,740 --> 00:13:22,139 tremendous amount of time tracking 487 00:13:22,140 --> 00:13:24,149 activity, like agreeing actions 488 00:13:24,150 --> 00:13:26,069 and making sure people do actions 489 00:13:26,070 --> 00:13:27,929 and a high level accountability 490 00:13:27,930 --> 00:13:28,799 around action. 491 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,659 And what I've started doing 492 00:13:30,660 --> 00:13:32,579 this time around is 493 00:13:32,580 --> 00:13:34,229 not really focusing on the action at 494 00:13:34,230 --> 00:13:35,279 all. It may be because it's the 495 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,559 exact team and a lot of the doers 496 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:39,479 are not in that meeting, 497 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,869 but it's around surfacing 498 00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:44,819 areas where we need to have the hard 499 00:13:44,820 --> 00:13:46,379 conversations. 500 00:13:46,380 --> 00:13:48,719 And it's basically 501 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,849 the problem keeps arising because 502 00:13:50,850 --> 00:13:53,549 we don't make the decision 503 00:13:53,550 --> 00:13:55,469 or we don't have the conversation 504 00:13:55,470 --> 00:13:57,839 or we talk around something 505 00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,099 and then kind of feel like we have a 506 00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:00,999 resolution and because, okay, 507 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,549 but if you look back and reflect, we 508 00:14:02,550 --> 00:14:03,959 have no resolution. 509 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,539 And what I'm really doing is 510 00:14:06,540 --> 00:14:08,729 focusing on 511 00:14:08,730 --> 00:14:10,739 let's resolve something or 512 00:14:10,740 --> 00:14:12,209 let's realize we can't resolve it 513 00:14:12,210 --> 00:14:14,309 because we need more information. 514 00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:16,559 Let's go and find the information 515 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:17,879 and then reopen. 516 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:19,439 The conversations have been very 517 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,259 clear on whether or not. 518 00:14:21,260 --> 00:14:23,209 We have resolution and that seems 519 00:14:23,210 --> 00:14:25,219 to be a real unlock way 520 00:14:25,220 --> 00:14:26,959 more than an action tracker. 521 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:28,009 I think sometimes when you have 522 00:14:28,010 --> 00:14:29,989 these conversations, various things 523 00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:31,099 happen in people's heads, right? 524 00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:32,689 Where they're like, I kind of buy 525 00:14:32,690 --> 00:14:34,129 into this, but I kind of don't. 526 00:14:34,130 --> 00:14:35,959 Or more often than I kind 527 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:37,129 of buy into this, but I kind of 528 00:14:37,130 --> 00:14:38,029 don't care. 529 00:14:38,030 --> 00:14:39,349 So therefore, in earnest, I'm not 530 00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:40,339 really going to try to solve this 531 00:14:40,340 --> 00:14:42,379 problem. And what ends up happening 532 00:14:42,380 --> 00:14:44,269 is that that problem will come back 533 00:14:44,270 --> 00:14:46,069 into the leadership meeting in a 534 00:14:46,070 --> 00:14:47,719 mutated form at some point down the 535 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,039 road. And you're kind of looking at 536 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:50,179 it again. You're like, why is this 537 00:14:50,180 --> 00:14:51,049 happening? 538 00:14:51,050 --> 00:14:52,009 This gets to the culture of the 539 00:14:52,010 --> 00:14:53,449 leadership team and the facilitator 540 00:14:53,450 --> 00:14:55,459 that's helping make it happen, 541 00:14:55,460 --> 00:14:57,319 which is sussing out at the 542 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:58,759 end of that meeting probably the 543 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,019 beginning, to be honest, which is 544 00:15:00,020 --> 00:15:01,729 like, how much do we care about 545 00:15:01,730 --> 00:15:03,559 this? Like do we honestly, the 546 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:04,579 people that we're talking like we 547 00:15:04,580 --> 00:15:06,109 all have a thousand things to do. 548 00:15:06,110 --> 00:15:07,669 Is this an important problem that we 549 00:15:07,670 --> 00:15:09,109 should talk about now? 550 00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:10,159 Is it urgent enough? 551 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:11,259 Is it pervasive enough? 552 00:15:11,260 --> 00:15:13,039 And if it is, let's talk it through. 553 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:14,719 Let's come to an agreement on it and 554 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:15,919 let's get it done. Basically, that 555 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:17,269 it's not. Look at this again. 556 00:15:17,270 --> 00:15:18,319 I think because we're all good 557 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,269 communicators, it can feel like 558 00:15:20,270 --> 00:15:21,469 you've made a decision or you've 559 00:15:21,470 --> 00:15:23,179 kind of gone around and you've had a 560 00:15:23,180 --> 00:15:25,729 chat here and had a chat there and 561 00:15:25,730 --> 00:15:27,289 and you've had like a complete 562 00:15:27,290 --> 00:15:29,239 conversation and 563 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:30,169 it feels like you've made a 564 00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:31,519 decision. And then if you take a 565 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:32,749 step back, you realize like no 566 00:15:32,750 --> 00:15:33,679 decision has been made. 567 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:35,629 We've all just aired our views 568 00:15:35,630 --> 00:15:37,729 and agreed with each other's views 569 00:15:37,730 --> 00:15:38,749 or disagreed with each other's 570 00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:39,529 views. But there's not been 571 00:15:39,530 --> 00:15:40,969 something after that. 572 00:15:40,970 --> 00:15:43,099 We've discussed around 573 00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:44,149 the topic. 574 00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:45,589 I feel as though most of my career 575 00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:47,149 has been this experience. 576 00:15:47,150 --> 00:15:48,529 Like it's not unique to peak where 577 00:15:48,530 --> 00:15:49,729 we can have this really robust 578 00:15:49,730 --> 00:15:51,559 conversation and actually nothing 579 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,419 has been decided and somehow we 580 00:15:53,420 --> 00:15:54,619 haven't noticed it. 581 00:15:54,620 --> 00:15:55,579 But it gets back to like the 582 00:15:55,580 --> 00:15:57,019 initially five steps in those 583 00:15:57,020 --> 00:15:57,979 meetings, right? 584 00:15:57,980 --> 00:15:59,659 Once you've like mined for your 585 00:15:59,660 --> 00:16:00,889 disagreement, you've been able to 586 00:16:00,890 --> 00:16:02,719 air everything. You've co-created a 587 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,999 shared understanding of the problem 588 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,859 and you're driving towards buy in. 589 00:16:06,860 --> 00:16:08,329 And then the next step after that is 590 00:16:08,330 --> 00:16:10,219 like, I think, reflection back 591 00:16:10,220 --> 00:16:12,319 to the group saying, okay, here's 592 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:13,909 what I think we've decided or what 593 00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:14,899 the outcome is. 594 00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:16,999 Do we actually do we agree to that? 595 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,949 Like that second half of the meeting 596 00:16:18,950 --> 00:16:20,749 is probably the critical piece to to 597 00:16:20,750 --> 00:16:22,939 drive it to a conclusion. 598 00:16:22,940 --> 00:16:25,939 I think previously in my career, 599 00:16:25,940 --> 00:16:27,739 it's kind of like a tension only 600 00:16:27,740 --> 00:16:29,539 like there's so much to it. 601 00:16:29,540 --> 00:16:32,059 This is an obvious conversation. 602 00:16:32,060 --> 00:16:34,099 We've resolved it done, whereas 603 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:35,659 really we haven't resolved it at 604 00:16:35,660 --> 00:16:36,799 all. 605 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,299 And I'm focusing much more on that 606 00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:39,300 now. 607 00:16:42,940 --> 00:16:44,499 All right. We've got part two in our 608 00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:46,239 series, which is what are the gaps 609 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,739 in the SEO toolkit? 610 00:16:47,740 --> 00:16:49,719 We have a lovely returning 611 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,939 guest, Stephanie Knowles, and 612 00:16:51,940 --> 00:16:53,469 she is the founder of the SEO 613 00:16:53,470 --> 00:16:55,599 roundtable and the former CEO 614 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,129 of Mind Candy. 615 00:16:57,130 --> 00:16:58,959 So this episode really 616 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:00,909 is digging into the shadow side 617 00:17:00,910 --> 00:17:02,619 of the SEO strengths. 618 00:17:02,620 --> 00:17:04,659 And Davinia had talked 619 00:17:04,660 --> 00:17:06,489 about four strengths 620 00:17:06,490 --> 00:17:08,179 of the SEO that are human 621 00:17:08,180 --> 00:17:09,639 archetypes. And I wanted to go 622 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,259 through each of the four with you. 623 00:17:11,260 --> 00:17:13,209 So the first one that she'd 624 00:17:13,210 --> 00:17:15,399 spoken about was the caregiver 625 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:16,419 SEO. 626 00:17:16,420 --> 00:17:18,249 And this is a person that focuses on 627 00:17:18,250 --> 00:17:19,868 creating a supportive and nurturing 628 00:17:19,869 --> 00:17:22,149 environment within the organization. 629 00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:23,348 And the weakness of their. 630 00:17:23,349 --> 00:17:25,659 The shadow side is 631 00:17:25,660 --> 00:17:27,249 over protection and excessive 632 00:17:27,250 --> 00:17:29,169 leniency, avoiding tough 633 00:17:29,170 --> 00:17:30,609 decisions, trying to preserve 634 00:17:30,610 --> 00:17:32,709 harmony, becoming overly involved 635 00:17:32,710 --> 00:17:34,089 in day to day issues, preventing 636 00:17:34,090 --> 00:17:36,459 scalability and strategic focus. 637 00:17:36,460 --> 00:17:38,379 So without weakness in 638 00:17:38,380 --> 00:17:40,359 play and for that kind of caregiving 639 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:42,549 SEO, what would be some tips 640 00:17:42,550 --> 00:17:44,709 to that person to mitigate 641 00:17:44,710 --> 00:17:45,999 that weakness? 642 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,369 I think it's about four factors. 643 00:17:48,370 --> 00:17:49,989 Taking and also the difference 644 00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:51,789 between being nice and being kind 645 00:17:51,790 --> 00:17:54,289 and looking at your behavior. 646 00:17:54,290 --> 00:17:55,659 And so if you're somebody who does 647 00:17:55,660 --> 00:17:57,519 not like being disagreeable, 648 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,079 disagree ability is another one of 649 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,889 these psychological things. 650 00:18:01,890 --> 00:18:03,339 And yet another one of these tests, 651 00:18:03,340 --> 00:18:04,839 so agreeable and disagreeable is 652 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,729 like whether or not you mind 653 00:18:06,730 --> 00:18:08,259 being a bit of a contrarian or 654 00:18:08,260 --> 00:18:10,119 causing some discomfort within an 655 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:11,109 organization. 656 00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:13,029 And so if you are somebody 657 00:18:13,030 --> 00:18:14,589 who really does not like being 658 00:18:14,590 --> 00:18:16,599 disagreeable, really likes 659 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,029 harmony, it is difficult 660 00:18:19,030 --> 00:18:21,009 to have those hard conversations 661 00:18:21,010 --> 00:18:23,319 and is easy to be a bit avoidant 662 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,149 in those situations and easy 663 00:18:25,150 --> 00:18:27,189 to think about being nice 664 00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:28,569 and having probably been praised as 665 00:18:28,570 --> 00:18:30,399 a child about being nice. 666 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,409 And isn't that a strength of yours? 667 00:18:32,410 --> 00:18:34,029 And nice particularly, I think for 668 00:18:34,030 --> 00:18:35,589 women. You know, being nice is one 669 00:18:35,590 --> 00:18:36,999 of those things that we're supposed 670 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,889 to be, but that is not the same as 671 00:18:38,890 --> 00:18:39,939 being kind. 672 00:18:39,940 --> 00:18:41,109 And I think it's much more important 673 00:18:41,110 --> 00:18:43,149 to be kind than it is to be nice. 674 00:18:43,150 --> 00:18:45,009 And so if you 675 00:18:45,010 --> 00:18:46,209 don't have the difficult 676 00:18:46,210 --> 00:18:47,619 conversations, if you don't hold 677 00:18:47,620 --> 00:18:49,329 people to account, if you don't give 678 00:18:49,330 --> 00:18:51,879 feedback so that they can do better, 679 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,379 you end up enticing them to the 680 00:18:53,380 --> 00:18:54,279 point too, that you then have to 681 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:55,329 fire them. 682 00:18:55,330 --> 00:18:57,069 And it's a total surprise. 683 00:18:57,070 --> 00:18:58,689 And actually the much kinder thing 684 00:18:58,690 --> 00:19:00,609 is to give people the ability to 685 00:19:00,610 --> 00:19:02,469 change along the way for the 686 00:19:02,470 --> 00:19:04,179 organization to develop along the 687 00:19:04,180 --> 00:19:04,869 way. 688 00:19:04,870 --> 00:19:07,209 So number two, the Sage SEO. 689 00:19:07,210 --> 00:19:08,769 So this is the strategist and the 690 00:19:08,770 --> 00:19:10,389 analyst leveraging data and 691 00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:11,889 knowledge drive operational 692 00:19:11,890 --> 00:19:13,629 efficiency and growth. 693 00:19:13,630 --> 00:19:15,699 And the weakness 694 00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:18,009 of the sage SEO is analysis 695 00:19:18,010 --> 00:19:20,109 by paralysis and detachment. 696 00:19:20,110 --> 00:19:22,119 Detachment in the sense of going 697 00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:23,739 through intellectual exercises and 698 00:19:23,740 --> 00:19:25,449 thinking through great strategies 699 00:19:25,450 --> 00:19:26,949 and ways to be effective in the 700 00:19:26,950 --> 00:19:28,239 business. But when it comes to 701 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:29,439 actually getting buy in from 702 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:30,669 individuals and getting the heart 703 00:19:30,670 --> 00:19:32,169 and soul of business to move in a 704 00:19:32,170 --> 00:19:34,239 direction, there's that detachment 705 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:35,679 piece where they're not quite not 706 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,269 particularly strong at that. 707 00:19:37,270 --> 00:19:39,159 I thought Sage 708 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,459 could be part of me, 709 00:19:42,460 --> 00:19:44,379 but my idea of a sage was more 710 00:19:44,380 --> 00:19:46,689 like the wise 711 00:19:46,690 --> 00:19:48,789 man, because why not be gendered 712 00:19:48,790 --> 00:19:49,719 here? 713 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,269 Sitting on the mountaintop 714 00:19:52,270 --> 00:19:54,219 that everybody goes to for 715 00:19:54,220 --> 00:19:55,659 sage bits of advice. 716 00:19:55,660 --> 00:19:57,009 And I feel as though I'm that one 717 00:19:57,010 --> 00:19:59,229 rather than the analysis paralysis. 718 00:19:59,230 --> 00:20:01,119 And what I think 719 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:02,979 my weakness is, if we use 720 00:20:02,980 --> 00:20:05,319 my definition of the sage 721 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,329 is I'll have a certain 722 00:20:07,330 --> 00:20:09,249 amount of fixed mindset because it's 723 00:20:09,250 --> 00:20:11,919 like my wisdom and only my wisdom. 724 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:13,389 Rather than being flexible that 725 00:20:13,390 --> 00:20:15,189 there could be other wisdom. 726 00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:17,889 And also because a lot of my 727 00:20:17,890 --> 00:20:20,319 self esteem is wrapped up in knowing 728 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,779 things and being 729 00:20:22,780 --> 00:20:24,639 the one who has seen it 730 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,619 before, it can 731 00:20:26,620 --> 00:20:28,149 be hard for me to step away from 732 00:20:28,150 --> 00:20:31,209 what I decide is the right thing. 733 00:20:31,210 --> 00:20:32,649 And it's not just intellectually 734 00:20:32,650 --> 00:20:34,359 hard. It's emotionally hard. 735 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:35,799 And so for me, that would be what it 736 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,869 is, is like growth mindset 737 00:20:37,870 --> 00:20:39,699 has got me where I am and 738 00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:42,399 maintaining a growth mindset. 739 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,259 Even when you think that 740 00:20:44,260 --> 00:20:46,209 you are the wisest person 741 00:20:46,210 --> 00:20:48,309 is the challenge and the shadow side 742 00:20:48,310 --> 00:20:49,179 for me. 743 00:20:49,180 --> 00:20:51,009 And then there's also maybe 744 00:20:51,010 --> 00:20:52,209 this is another part of the sage 745 00:20:52,210 --> 00:20:54,519 element is when you have 746 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,529 another sage, 747 00:20:56,530 --> 00:20:58,359 join the exec 748 00:20:58,360 --> 00:20:59,289 team. 749 00:20:59,290 --> 00:21:00,789 I get myself freaked out because I'm 750 00:21:00,790 --> 00:21:02,949 like, my role here 751 00:21:02,950 --> 00:21:04,269 is being. 752 00:21:04,270 --> 00:21:05,049 I'm the sage. 753 00:21:05,050 --> 00:21:06,050 I think 754 00:21:06,910 --> 00:21:08,049 it is interesting because part of me 755 00:21:08,050 --> 00:21:09,559 is like, we need more experience. 756 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,109 I love having you at New Voice 757 00:21:11,110 --> 00:21:12,549 Media. We had loads of experience 758 00:21:12,550 --> 00:21:13,839 around the table. I was at least 759 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:14,949 experienced. I was playing a 760 00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:15,879 different role. 761 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:17,559 I really valued everybody else's 762 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,389 experience around the table. 763 00:21:19,390 --> 00:21:21,219 But when I am the 764 00:21:21,220 --> 00:21:22,539 one with the most experience in the 765 00:21:22,540 --> 00:21:24,699 room and that has become my self 766 00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:26,469 worth, and then you have somebody 767 00:21:26,470 --> 00:21:27,879 else coming in who's like, No, I 768 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,859 know more that one. 769 00:21:29,860 --> 00:21:31,269 Like even just talking about it, I 770 00:21:31,270 --> 00:21:33,099 can feel the tension in my stomach 771 00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:34,869 of like, what's my role if this 772 00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:36,309 isn't my role anymore? 773 00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:38,359 And so it's just the 774 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:39,849 the physical response I'm having 775 00:21:39,850 --> 00:21:40,929 talking about it right now. 776 00:21:40,930 --> 00:21:42,709 One, I'm feeling very vulnerable. 777 00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:44,119 And two, it's clearly something I 778 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:45,289 need to work through because my 779 00:21:45,290 --> 00:21:47,419 whole body is in flight 780 00:21:47,420 --> 00:21:49,339 mode over the idea 781 00:21:49,340 --> 00:21:51,259 of somebody taking my place. 782 00:21:51,260 --> 00:21:53,269 Massive shadow side raising 783 00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:54,709 its head at the moment. 784 00:21:54,710 --> 00:21:56,689 The third one is the hero solo. 785 00:21:56,690 --> 00:21:58,459 So this is the action oriented, 786 00:21:58,460 --> 00:21:59,929 driving the organization toward 787 00:21:59,930 --> 00:22:01,639 ambitious goals by overcoming 788 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,979 challenges and inspiring resilience. 789 00:22:03,980 --> 00:22:05,029 That sounds totally amazing. 790 00:22:05,030 --> 00:22:06,919 That's you bias for action. 791 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:08,779 So the weakness here of that 792 00:22:08,780 --> 00:22:10,609 one is overextension 793 00:22:10,610 --> 00:22:12,469 and burnout over committing to 794 00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:14,059 ambitious goals, leading to 795 00:22:14,060 --> 00:22:15,469 unrealistic expectations for 796 00:22:15,470 --> 00:22:17,419 themselves and their teams, taking 797 00:22:17,420 --> 00:22:19,369 on too much personally, undermining 798 00:22:19,370 --> 00:22:21,469 delegation and team empowerment 799 00:22:21,470 --> 00:22:21,649 that. 800 00:22:21,650 --> 00:22:24,049 Is so 100% me that it's just feel 801 00:22:24,050 --> 00:22:26,149 like you're taking on too 802 00:22:26,150 --> 00:22:27,150 much, you know, 803 00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:29,689 burnout. 804 00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:31,579 And I think there's also so there's 805 00:22:31,580 --> 00:22:33,349 a hero and then there's it's tied up 806 00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:35,029 with the fact that you're able to do 807 00:22:35,030 --> 00:22:36,499 a lot of things and so you end up 808 00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:38,659 taking on all these other roles. 809 00:22:38,660 --> 00:22:39,529 I can remember that. 810 00:22:39,530 --> 00:22:41,119 You know, that's another element. 811 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:42,109 Charlene talked about it. 812 00:22:42,110 --> 00:22:43,489 Didn't she like the ability to be 813 00:22:43,490 --> 00:22:45,439 big and small and 814 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:46,579 the glue that sticks it all 815 00:22:46,580 --> 00:22:47,509 together? 816 00:22:47,510 --> 00:22:49,909 Yeah, this is 100% me. 817 00:22:49,910 --> 00:22:51,979 And a lesson I have to learn 818 00:22:51,980 --> 00:22:53,479 over and over again is not to push 819 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,549 the team too hard, not to make 820 00:22:55,550 --> 00:22:57,859 them cry out of exhaustion 821 00:22:57,860 --> 00:22:59,809 and burnout. Because 822 00:22:59,810 --> 00:23:01,129 if I can do it, the whole team can 823 00:23:01,130 --> 00:23:03,559 do it. Not to make my self burnout, 824 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,419 which I think has been I'm not burnt 825 00:23:05,420 --> 00:23:07,609 out, but the theme of the last few 826 00:23:07,610 --> 00:23:09,499 episodes has been it's dark 827 00:23:09,500 --> 00:23:11,449 and cold and miserable 828 00:23:11,450 --> 00:23:13,279 and I don't want to 829 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:14,509 do anymore. 830 00:23:14,510 --> 00:23:15,709 So, you know, but I really like 831 00:23:15,710 --> 00:23:17,299 Rejoint for four months, so I don't 832 00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:18,769 refusing to use the word burnout 833 00:23:18,770 --> 00:23:19,549 here. 834 00:23:19,550 --> 00:23:20,599 Again, if I'm being really 835 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,639 vulnerable and open today on 836 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,499 all of this is I have, instead 837 00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:26,719 of acknowledging the 838 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,699 dark side, just decided 839 00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:30,319 to embrace that. 840 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:31,729 This is what I want to do. 841 00:23:31,730 --> 00:23:32,839 And it's fun. 842 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,549 So tucking away the dark side into a 843 00:23:34,550 --> 00:23:35,659 little box. 844 00:23:35,660 --> 00:23:37,219 Yeah, totally. I'm just like, This 845 00:23:37,220 --> 00:23:39,649 is 100% 846 00:23:39,650 --> 00:23:40,879 how I want to live life. 847 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,829 I want to live life to the fullest. 848 00:23:42,830 --> 00:23:44,479 There is no dark side. 849 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:45,709 Let's just go. 850 00:23:45,710 --> 00:23:47,449 And so maybe another thing I need to 851 00:23:47,450 --> 00:23:49,519 explore and maybe open 852 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:50,520 up that box. 853 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,749 And I think there's also there are 854 00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:55,409 definitely ways to be more balanced. 855 00:23:55,410 --> 00:23:57,319 Like if I look at instead 856 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,059 of the fact that I'm doing too much 857 00:23:59,060 --> 00:24:01,729 and might possibly be burnt out is 858 00:24:01,730 --> 00:24:03,769 within a business 859 00:24:03,770 --> 00:24:05,599 context driving 860 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,309 the team too hard. 861 00:24:07,310 --> 00:24:09,499 Or sometimes I'll have a vision 862 00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:11,419 and I'll share the vision and then 863 00:24:11,420 --> 00:24:13,609 people take me 864 00:24:13,610 --> 00:24:14,719 literally. 865 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,369 And then it sounds like an 866 00:24:16,370 --> 00:24:18,379 impossible thing to achieve 867 00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:20,119 and they don't really understand how 868 00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:20,899 to get started. 869 00:24:20,900 --> 00:24:23,059 Whereas I'm like, No, no, no. 870 00:24:23,060 --> 00:24:24,289 I can't even think of an example I 871 00:24:24,290 --> 00:24:25,519 wish I could, which would make it 872 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,529 better. But like, I don't mean 873 00:24:27,530 --> 00:24:29,599 we need a crystal palace, 874 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,699 I just need a box 875 00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:33,649 with some windows and we'll 876 00:24:33,650 --> 00:24:34,609 get to the Crystal Palace. 877 00:24:34,610 --> 00:24:35,899 But let's do the box with windows 878 00:24:35,900 --> 00:24:36,900 first. And I was like, 879 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:39,949 because sometimes I'll have 880 00:24:39,950 --> 00:24:41,899 a vision in mind and it just gets 881 00:24:41,900 --> 00:24:43,609 everybody tangled up. 882 00:24:43,610 --> 00:24:46,429 And then they go in like, way over 883 00:24:46,430 --> 00:24:48,409 Architect What I'm talking about, as 884 00:24:48,410 --> 00:24:49,909 I've learned to try and break down 885 00:24:49,910 --> 00:24:51,289 the vision into very small, 886 00:24:51,290 --> 00:24:52,339 achievable steps. 887 00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:54,019 But sometimes I don't do that. 888 00:24:54,020 --> 00:24:56,029 And then the other one is because I 889 00:24:56,030 --> 00:24:57,619 have this ideal that we're working 890 00:24:57,620 --> 00:24:59,539 towards and I have quite 891 00:24:59,540 --> 00:25:01,609 a high standards, particularly 892 00:25:01,610 --> 00:25:03,439 for like slides 893 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,959 and clarity of thought that 894 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,749 often I demand 100% 895 00:25:08,750 --> 00:25:10,579 and forget the 8020 rule. 896 00:25:10,580 --> 00:25:12,559 And so I am trying to introduce more 897 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,239 of an 8020 rule for myself and 898 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,139 everyone else of like, what is 899 00:25:16,140 --> 00:25:17,419 the 20% that's going to make the 900 00:25:17,420 --> 00:25:18,979 biggest difference and not do the 901 00:25:18,980 --> 00:25:20,959 100% like and 902 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,279 which is a big departure because I'm 903 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,079 not even saying like, let's do 80%. 904 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,089 I'm saying let's do 20%, which is 905 00:25:26,090 --> 00:25:27,949 hard for me to get around 906 00:25:27,950 --> 00:25:29,689 because I want it to be perfect. 907 00:25:29,690 --> 00:25:31,969 But actually it's very true. 908 00:25:31,970 --> 00:25:33,199 So number four is the last one. 909 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,579 This is the magician. 910 00:25:34,580 --> 00:25:36,229 Whoa! This is the person that 911 00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:37,759 envisions and executes 912 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,409 transformative strategies to make 913 00:25:39,410 --> 00:25:41,929 the company a leader in innovation. 914 00:25:41,930 --> 00:25:44,119 So this kind of sounds like your 915 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:44,899 what you just talked about. 916 00:25:44,900 --> 00:25:46,279 Actually, I think a little bit. 917 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,139 Yeah. I think Okay, so I've these 918 00:25:48,140 --> 00:25:49,309 two and these are my archetypes. 919 00:25:49,310 --> 00:25:50,310 Yeah. 920 00:25:50,540 --> 00:25:52,489 What's the shadow side on this 921 00:25:52,490 --> 00:25:53,119 one? 922 00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:55,159 So the shadow side is idealism 923 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:56,869 and lack of grounding way. 924 00:25:56,870 --> 00:25:58,169 I just talked about that. 925 00:25:58,170 --> 00:26:00,169 I like what 926 00:26:00,170 --> 00:26:01,399 my Crystal Palace said. 927 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:02,509 How were you going to get there? 928 00:26:02,510 --> 00:26:03,859 Yeah, actually, I think that you're 929 00:26:03,860 --> 00:26:05,149 exactly right. So let me let let me 930 00:26:05,150 --> 00:26:06,289 read the two details here, though, 931 00:26:06,290 --> 00:26:07,489 see if this resonates. 932 00:26:07,490 --> 00:26:09,979 So overhauling systems or processes 933 00:26:09,980 --> 00:26:12,109 too frequently, causing disruption 934 00:26:12,110 --> 00:26:13,939 and confusion and neglecting 935 00:26:13,940 --> 00:26:15,799 routine operations or details that 936 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,299 sustain the business. 937 00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:18,379 I think we've talked about this 938 00:26:18,380 --> 00:26:21,079 before, this idea of 939 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,939 there being three archetypes of 940 00:26:22,940 --> 00:26:24,889 the way people think. 941 00:26:24,890 --> 00:26:26,779 This is come from a friend who 942 00:26:26,780 --> 00:26:28,459 worked at Bridgewater and this is 943 00:26:28,460 --> 00:26:29,929 why Bridgewater have structured 944 00:26:29,930 --> 00:26:30,799 their business. 945 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,089 There are operators who deal with 946 00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:34,249 the day to day and the firefighting 947 00:26:34,250 --> 00:26:36,529 and the turning of the handle. 948 00:26:36,530 --> 00:26:38,509 And then you have the 949 00:26:38,510 --> 00:26:40,669 architects who 950 00:26:40,670 --> 00:26:42,079 build out. 951 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:43,339 The vision and the operational 952 00:26:43,340 --> 00:26:45,439 strategy, and they're thinking 953 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,419 from six months to 18, two years 954 00:26:47,420 --> 00:26:48,289 out. And then you have the 955 00:26:48,290 --> 00:26:49,939 strategists who are like two, three 956 00:26:49,940 --> 00:26:51,649 years to ten years out. 957 00:26:51,650 --> 00:26:52,789 What's the big vision? 958 00:26:52,790 --> 00:26:53,929 Where are we going? 959 00:26:53,930 --> 00:26:55,879 And the chessboard that I can't 960 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,079 even see. 961 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,179 And it's around creating 962 00:26:59,180 --> 00:27:01,129 a team that has all of those 963 00:27:01,130 --> 00:27:02,239 attributes. 964 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,309 And so I'm very much the architect, 965 00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:06,409 and I can be the perfect architect 966 00:27:06,410 --> 00:27:07,729 and forget about the day to day 967 00:27:07,730 --> 00:27:09,769 stuff. So I make sure that I hire 968 00:27:09,770 --> 00:27:11,899 in people who love the day to day. 969 00:27:11,900 --> 00:27:13,219 And then I make sure I partner with 970 00:27:13,220 --> 00:27:15,499 somebody who has that massive vision 971 00:27:15,500 --> 00:27:17,059 rather than trying to be all things 972 00:27:17,060 --> 00:27:18,449 at all times. 973 00:27:18,450 --> 00:27:20,569 I'm never going to love 974 00:27:20,570 --> 00:27:22,489 grinding away on 975 00:27:22,490 --> 00:27:24,049 the same information over and over 976 00:27:24,050 --> 00:27:24,859 again. 977 00:27:24,860 --> 00:27:26,299 So what? Do we park it here and get 978 00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:27,849 on to our conversation with 979 00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:29,839 Stephanie Knowles for part two. 980 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,789 And the shadow side of 981 00:27:31,790 --> 00:27:32,790 our strengths. 982 00:27:36,690 --> 00:27:38,279 The ones that tend to come up quite 983 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,619 a lot are caregiver 984 00:27:40,620 --> 00:27:41,729 apps. 985 00:27:41,730 --> 00:27:43,799 Sage The Wisdom 986 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:44,999 Heroes. 987 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,919 So Sage caregiver 988 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,779 hero, which I think is like 989 00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:51,329 the Challenger bravely 990 00:27:51,330 --> 00:27:53,399 and magician, which 991 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,259 is the transforming one, which 992 00:27:55,260 --> 00:27:56,729 you can again you can understand 993 00:27:56,730 --> 00:27:59,009 because a lot of CEOs end up being 994 00:27:59,010 --> 00:28:01,229 change and transformation leaders. 995 00:28:01,230 --> 00:28:03,059 So the magician who sort of 996 00:28:03,060 --> 00:28:04,979 does things as if by magic, often 997 00:28:04,980 --> 00:28:06,719 in the background, people don't see 998 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,449 it and then things come to fruition. 999 00:28:09,450 --> 00:28:11,639 We all have a shadow 1000 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,559 side, like a union, shadow side 1001 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:14,469 to ourselves. 1002 00:28:14,470 --> 00:28:16,709 And I watched Inside 1003 00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:18,809 Out too, with one of my teenage 1004 00:28:18,810 --> 00:28:20,339 sons, my younger teenage son, 1005 00:28:20,340 --> 00:28:21,239 yesterday. 1006 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,069 And the entire lesson was 1007 00:28:23,070 --> 00:28:25,379 about accepting 1008 00:28:25,380 --> 00:28:27,119 the entirety of who we are, the good 1009 00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:29,129 with the bad, the shadow 1010 00:28:29,130 --> 00:28:30,989 self with the 1011 00:28:30,990 --> 00:28:32,099 light self. 1012 00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:33,779 I just love inside out like the 1013 00:28:33,780 --> 00:28:35,429 first one. The second one maybe 1014 00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:37,169 wasn't as compelling a story, but it 1015 00:28:37,170 --> 00:28:38,999 was an absolutely amazing 1016 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,129 lesson to learn and one that I think 1017 00:28:41,130 --> 00:28:43,109 any teenager capable of doing that 1018 00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:44,339 is amazing. 1019 00:28:44,340 --> 00:28:46,049 I think it's great that 45 to be 1020 00:28:46,050 --> 00:28:48,479 able to embrace any of my dark side 1021 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:49,499 openly. 1022 00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:51,029 And so I just thought I'd be 1023 00:28:51,030 --> 00:28:52,829 interested davinia to highlight 1024 00:28:52,830 --> 00:28:54,899 areas that are like 1025 00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:56,819 tend to be fundamental 1026 00:28:56,820 --> 00:28:59,099 weaknesses of, 1027 00:28:59,100 --> 00:29:01,199 of CEOs or the dark 1028 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,879 side to what we view as our 1029 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,439 strengths. Because it's a cliche, 1030 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:05,729 but it's true that every strength 1031 00:29:05,730 --> 00:29:06,899 comes with a weakness. 1032 00:29:06,900 --> 00:29:08,579 And I have a feeling that it relates 1033 00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:10,409 a lot to servant 1034 00:29:10,410 --> 00:29:12,479 leadership, which is difficult, 1035 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:13,319 isn't it? Because servant 1036 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,699 leadership, in one way I feel like 1037 00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:16,769 is a blessing and a curse, 1038 00:29:16,770 --> 00:29:18,689 which is so if you are in service 1039 00:29:18,690 --> 00:29:20,069 of others all the time, which CEOs 1040 00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:22,019 generally tend to be what 1041 00:29:22,020 --> 00:29:23,759 I find in upcoming CEOs when I'm 1042 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,039 coaching them particularly, is 1043 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,989 to use John Geary's phrase, there's 1044 00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:29,519 something about teaching them to be 1045 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,379 propositional or inviting 1046 00:29:31,380 --> 00:29:33,299 them to be propositional, which 1047 00:29:33,300 --> 00:29:34,769 is that they sometimes struggle to 1048 00:29:34,770 --> 00:29:37,109 have the confidence and 1049 00:29:37,110 --> 00:29:39,059 ego sometimes because they're 1050 00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:40,619 incredibly humble, usually 1051 00:29:40,620 --> 00:29:42,539 personalities, to be 1052 00:29:42,540 --> 00:29:44,039 really forthright and have a solid 1053 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:45,959 opinion, which I think can 1054 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,249 be enormously challenging. 1055 00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:48,749 When you look at some of these gaps, 1056 00:29:48,750 --> 00:29:49,649 for example, the external 1057 00:29:49,650 --> 00:29:52,049 spokesperson piece, but that's also 1058 00:29:52,050 --> 00:29:53,429 sometimes at board level, as we were 1059 00:29:53,430 --> 00:29:54,869 talking about last time. 1060 00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:56,369 And sometimes I think it can be 1061 00:29:56,370 --> 00:29:58,319 because you're expected to be 1062 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,119 in service often, and there's 1063 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,069 something about how you then frame 1064 00:30:02,070 --> 00:30:03,659 that in your own mind as to whether 1065 00:30:03,660 --> 00:30:05,999 therefore you're allowed 1066 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,039 to have your own opinion 1067 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,599 about where the business is going, 1068 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,059 how it's being run, the strategy, 1069 00:30:12,060 --> 00:30:14,219 all of these other things versus 1070 00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:16,019 accepting what you're given in terms 1071 00:30:16,020 --> 00:30:17,909 of I get given 1072 00:30:17,910 --> 00:30:19,319 a strategy and then I have to 1073 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,179 execute against it. 1074 00:30:21,180 --> 00:30:23,069 I think about like the role of 1075 00:30:23,070 --> 00:30:25,499 a c O 1076 00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:27,359 and that relationship 1077 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,429 with a CEO 1078 00:30:29,430 --> 00:30:31,019 versus a relationship with the rest 1079 00:30:31,020 --> 00:30:33,059 of the business. And how 1080 00:30:33,060 --> 00:30:34,379 much is servant leadership for the 1081 00:30:34,380 --> 00:30:35,939 rest of the business versus almost 1082 00:30:35,940 --> 00:30:37,799 like a de facto servant leadership 1083 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,839 for the CEO? 1084 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,249 And how do you have a challenging 1085 00:30:41,250 --> 00:30:43,829 relationship with your CEO 1086 00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:45,209 that's also effective? 1087 00:30:45,210 --> 00:30:46,889 I mean, maybe it's just my own 1088 00:30:46,890 --> 00:30:48,989 thing, but I seem to be 1089 00:30:48,990 --> 00:30:50,849 I'm better at being disagreeable, 1090 00:30:50,850 --> 00:30:52,649 stating my position, having a 1091 00:30:52,650 --> 00:30:54,689 proposition throughout the rest 1092 00:30:54,690 --> 00:30:55,769 of the business. 1093 00:30:55,770 --> 00:30:56,879 And it's the relationship with the 1094 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,739 CEO that I can often find 1095 00:30:58,740 --> 00:31:00,599 more challenging where I 1096 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,299 have either it's blatantly wrong 1097 00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:05,729 and I will say something 1098 00:31:05,730 --> 00:31:07,679 or it makes enough sense 1099 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,059 that I'll just go and execute and 1100 00:31:09,060 --> 00:31:10,349 kind of like not be bothered to 1101 00:31:10,350 --> 00:31:11,639 think I don't know what that 1102 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,889 archetype is. The lazy archetype 1103 00:31:13,890 --> 00:31:16,319 like that lazy thinking archetype. 1104 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:17,789 Does that make sense? Does that is 1105 00:31:17,790 --> 00:31:19,079 that something you've ever dealt 1106 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:19,829 with? 1107 00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:21,959 100%? And I think that this back 1108 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,339 to this sort of being propositional 1109 00:31:23,340 --> 00:31:25,139 thing doesn't always have to be 1110 00:31:25,140 --> 00:31:26,189 because you don't have the confidence. 1111 00:31:26,190 --> 00:31:28,139 It could also be because you're 1112 00:31:28,140 --> 00:31:30,089 following what you have 1113 00:31:30,090 --> 00:31:32,099 been instructed to do and 1114 00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:34,019 to all intents purposes feels like 1115 00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:35,879 it's not a hill you want to dial and 1116 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,129 say, off you go, until 1117 00:31:38,130 --> 00:31:39,419 you realize actually in practice 1118 00:31:39,420 --> 00:31:41,309 that that doesn't necessarily 1119 00:31:41,310 --> 00:31:43,169 work the way that anyone had 1120 00:31:43,170 --> 00:31:44,139 thought it would. 1121 00:31:44,140 --> 00:31:45,899 But, you know, that's what came into 1122 00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:47,309 my head as well, the relationship 1123 00:31:47,310 --> 00:31:49,049 with the CEO, because I also find 1124 00:31:49,050 --> 00:31:50,939 that in lots of instances when I'm 1125 00:31:50,940 --> 00:31:52,799 working with CEOs, when I'm 1126 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,119 working with CEOs, and back to sort 1127 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,069 of the first episode we ever did, 1128 00:31:56,070 --> 00:31:57,419 this thing about relationship is 1129 00:31:57,420 --> 00:31:58,199 huge, right? 1130 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,029 As in when I'm 1131 00:32:00,030 --> 00:32:01,949 doing chemistry work with CEOs 1132 00:32:01,950 --> 00:32:03,839 who I want to work with that 1133 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,819 one of the first questions I ask 1134 00:32:05,820 --> 00:32:07,019 is, how's the relationship with the 1135 00:32:07,020 --> 00:32:08,309 CEO? Let's talk about that for a 1136 00:32:08,310 --> 00:32:10,019 bit, because generally speaking, if 1137 00:32:10,020 --> 00:32:11,759 it's bad, it's just not going to 1138 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,259 work, right? And also, then I 1139 00:32:13,260 --> 00:32:14,729 question whether coaching was a good 1140 00:32:14,730 --> 00:32:16,619 idea because it's like if we're 1141 00:32:16,620 --> 00:32:17,789 going to just spend all of our time 1142 00:32:17,790 --> 00:32:19,079 talking about your relationship with 1143 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,699 your family because it's 1144 00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:22,409 dysfunctional, then I don't think 1145 00:32:22,410 --> 00:32:23,579 this is a good idea. 1146 00:32:23,580 --> 00:32:24,929 That's not to say that all of these 1147 00:32:24,930 --> 00:32:27,119 relationships are rosy, 1148 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:28,889 remembering that most of those 1149 00:32:28,890 --> 00:32:31,049 relationships, quasi relationships, 1150 00:32:31,050 --> 00:32:32,489 are on some form of spectrum. 1151 00:32:32,490 --> 00:32:34,409 I think more often than not, when 1152 00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:36,109 you. You hear about CEOs looking for 1153 00:32:36,110 --> 00:32:37,879 CEOs, one of the first things they 1154 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,919 say is partner, 1155 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,479 including sparring partner. 1156 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:42,289 Right. 1157 00:32:42,290 --> 00:32:44,599 So somebody I can bounce ideas off, 1158 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,279 somebody who can tell me when they 1159 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:47,839 think I've gone a bit sort of off 1160 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,039 piste somewhere. 1161 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,509 And again, back to sort of the hero 1162 00:32:50,510 --> 00:32:51,859 or the challenger. How do you do 1163 00:32:51,860 --> 00:32:53,239 that whilst having a good 1164 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:54,649 relationship with them? 1165 00:32:54,650 --> 00:32:56,509 And in a way that's more as I really 1166 00:32:56,510 --> 00:32:58,489 like the phrase trusted advisor 1167 00:32:58,490 --> 00:33:00,739 so that they see that you can 1168 00:33:00,740 --> 00:33:02,569 in some ways sometimes give your 1169 00:33:02,570 --> 00:33:04,459 opinion, sometimes to the 1170 00:33:04,460 --> 00:33:06,229 coach and ask questions and be 1171 00:33:06,230 --> 00:33:07,389 curious. 1172 00:33:07,390 --> 00:33:09,169 All of that then within that 1173 00:33:09,170 --> 00:33:10,489 relationship, but not always 1174 00:33:10,490 --> 00:33:11,749 agreeing with them. And sometimes 1175 00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:13,369 that's okay too is I don't 1176 00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:15,019 necessarily agree with what, you 1177 00:33:15,020 --> 00:33:16,789 know, the direction you're taking 1178 00:33:16,790 --> 00:33:18,049 here. 1179 00:33:18,050 --> 00:33:19,489 Some say that I won't do it. 1180 00:33:19,490 --> 00:33:21,379 I'll do as I am bid, but I'm 1181 00:33:21,380 --> 00:33:23,239 not entirely sold 1182 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,189 at this point. We'll see. 1183 00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:27,019 So those are not my challenges. 1184 00:33:27,020 --> 00:33:29,719 My challenge is taking the time 1185 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,549 to have an opinion because 1186 00:33:31,550 --> 00:33:33,319 I think there's just so much going 1187 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:34,699 on. 1188 00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:36,709 And also, I love change 1189 00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:38,779 and I love doing things 1190 00:33:38,780 --> 00:33:40,399 and I kind of like, what's the worst 1191 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:41,449 that could happen? We can always 1192 00:33:41,450 --> 00:33:42,259 back out. 1193 00:33:42,260 --> 00:33:43,639 So I'm like, That sounds like fun. 1194 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:44,959 I'll go for it. 1195 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,789 And I don't always have that circuit 1196 00:33:46,790 --> 00:33:48,739 breaker of actually let 1197 00:33:48,740 --> 00:33:50,629 me have a bit more of the five. 1198 00:33:50,630 --> 00:33:52,249 The analysts. Let me think this 1199 00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:53,569 through because I'm like, That's not 1200 00:33:53,570 --> 00:33:55,489 fun. Let's just go 1201 00:33:55,490 --> 00:33:57,319 and I can, you 1202 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,239 know, like completely 1203 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:00,619 pivot on our product and sell 1204 00:34:00,620 --> 00:34:01,819 something brand new that we know 1205 00:34:01,820 --> 00:34:03,469 nothing about because, like, that 1206 00:34:03,470 --> 00:34:04,669 sounds like really an interesting 1207 00:34:04,670 --> 00:34:05,809 project. 1208 00:34:05,810 --> 00:34:08,029 And so for me, it's taking 1209 00:34:08,030 --> 00:34:10,189 the time to actually 1210 00:34:10,190 --> 00:34:11,269 decide whether or not it's a good 1211 00:34:11,270 --> 00:34:13,339 idea and then being the sparring 1212 00:34:13,340 --> 00:34:14,749 partner. So I really only do that 1213 00:34:14,750 --> 00:34:16,638 when it's like just hits me between 1214 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:18,408 the eyes. That is like a really bad 1215 00:34:18,409 --> 00:34:19,339 idea. 1216 00:34:19,340 --> 00:34:21,229 So, but anything short of a 1217 00:34:21,230 --> 00:34:23,509 really bad idea, I'm game. 1218 00:34:23,510 --> 00:34:24,559 And I suppose it's one of those 1219 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,419 characteristics of buys for action, 1220 00:34:26,420 --> 00:34:28,009 which is a good quality for the most 1221 00:34:28,010 --> 00:34:30,019 part. But I think to your point 1222 00:34:30,020 --> 00:34:31,669 out of any I think this trusted 1223 00:34:31,670 --> 00:34:34,009 advisor I think is absolutely 1224 00:34:34,010 --> 00:34:35,209 spot on, which is you won't have a 1225 00:34:35,210 --> 00:34:36,678 relationship with the co founder 1226 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:38,629 where there is inherent trust. 1227 00:34:38,630 --> 00:34:40,579 They lean on you for thoughts and 1228 00:34:40,580 --> 00:34:41,629 you're in that position where 1229 00:34:41,630 --> 00:34:42,709 they're whatever they're coming up 1230 00:34:42,710 --> 00:34:44,209 with, they feel comfortable to 1231 00:34:44,210 --> 00:34:46,158 bounce those ideas off of you and 1232 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:47,359 it gives you an opportunity at that 1233 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,189 point to provide thoughts back 1234 00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:50,928 to them in kind of an innocuous way 1235 00:34:50,929 --> 00:34:53,089 in terms of what your view is 1236 00:34:53,090 --> 00:34:54,439 on that particular issue or maybe a 1237 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:55,638 broader set of issues or what have 1238 00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:57,319 you. But if you're in that space as 1239 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,809 the trusted advisor, that is a 1240 00:34:59,810 --> 00:35:01,549 key and wonderful place to be. 1241 00:35:01,550 --> 00:35:03,289 And I think this archetype around 1242 00:35:03,290 --> 00:35:04,699 the Sage, I think it dovetails 1243 00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:06,379 directly into it, which is that sage 1244 00:35:06,380 --> 00:35:08,359 quality very much is exactly 1245 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:09,469 this, which is you're the trusted 1246 00:35:09,470 --> 00:35:11,359 advisor to the CEO or you're the 1247 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:12,949 trusted advisor to the leadership 1248 00:35:12,950 --> 00:35:15,109 team or the trusted advisor across 1249 00:35:15,110 --> 00:35:16,009 the business. 1250 00:35:16,010 --> 00:35:18,049 That to me is like a senior CMO 1251 00:35:18,050 --> 00:35:19,189 that really is demonstrated to the 1252 00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:20,329 organization. 1253 00:35:20,330 --> 00:35:21,559 This person that backstops 1254 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,029 everything in a very sensible, 1255 00:35:23,030 --> 00:35:24,739 rational, helpful way. 1256 00:35:24,740 --> 00:35:26,689 So this thing around, lots 1257 00:35:26,690 --> 00:35:28,369 of senior CEOs that I work with have 1258 00:35:28,370 --> 00:35:29,509 done some form of coaching 1259 00:35:29,510 --> 00:35:31,459 qualification and they're 1260 00:35:31,460 --> 00:35:32,569 not necessarily going to go off and 1261 00:35:32,570 --> 00:35:33,709 be coaches, lots of them. 1262 00:35:33,710 --> 00:35:35,419 They can stay as CEOs because that's 1263 00:35:35,420 --> 00:35:36,439 what they love. 1264 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,329 However, that is 1265 00:35:38,330 --> 00:35:39,889 because it's a skill that they 1266 00:35:39,890 --> 00:35:41,149 really want to employ in the 1267 00:35:41,150 --> 00:35:42,649 business, not just with the people 1268 00:35:42,650 --> 00:35:43,699 that work with them, but with the 1269 00:35:43,700 --> 00:35:45,079 CEO as well. 1270 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:46,489 So I think that's super interesting 1271 00:35:46,490 --> 00:35:48,679 is how you then how you develop 1272 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,339 some of this skill set. 1273 00:35:50,340 --> 00:35:51,379 Bethany had a question for you 1274 00:35:51,380 --> 00:35:52,339 because I have a feeling there's a 1275 00:35:52,340 --> 00:35:54,229 shadow in here, which is I 1276 00:35:54,230 --> 00:35:55,789 bump into this quite a lot with 1277 00:35:55,790 --> 00:35:57,829 CEOs. The shadow sometimes 1278 00:35:57,830 --> 00:36:00,349 is that they're actually ruminates 1279 00:36:00,350 --> 00:36:01,729 and it might not be you, but it's 1280 00:36:01,730 --> 00:36:02,719 kind of an interesting one. 1281 00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:05,089 As we talk about the shadow side, 1282 00:36:05,090 --> 00:36:06,259 they're much better when they take 1283 00:36:06,260 --> 00:36:07,639 things away and think about them and 1284 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,529 then come back again versus, you 1285 00:36:09,530 --> 00:36:11,149 know, you get lots of CEOs who kind 1286 00:36:11,150 --> 00:36:13,099 of really think on their feet and 1287 00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:15,049 can sort of hear something, 1288 00:36:15,050 --> 00:36:15,839 data, etc. 1289 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,239 Just something spits something back 1290 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:19,579 out again. It's entirely reasonable, 1291 00:36:19,580 --> 00:36:20,689 rational. 1292 00:36:20,690 --> 00:36:22,759 Whereas lots of CEOs, 1293 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,949 again, they like to ingest 1294 00:36:24,950 --> 00:36:27,289 information, get other data points, 1295 00:36:27,290 --> 00:36:29,299 so corral everything together 1296 00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:30,619 and figure out themselves and then 1297 00:36:30,620 --> 00:36:32,029 come back again. 1298 00:36:32,030 --> 00:36:33,889 And also, they then need to give 1299 00:36:33,890 --> 00:36:35,089 themselves the time to do that, 1300 00:36:35,090 --> 00:36:35,719 right? 1301 00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:37,069 Brandon's definitely ruminating, 1302 00:36:37,070 --> 00:36:38,749 like in terms of working together on 1303 00:36:38,750 --> 00:36:40,069 the podcast. 1304 00:36:40,070 --> 00:36:41,269 Brandon prepares. 1305 00:36:41,270 --> 00:36:43,339 He has questions, he thinks about 1306 00:36:43,340 --> 00:36:44,119 the intro. 1307 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,039 He finds themes that 1308 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,049 would kill me. I just rock up and 1309 00:36:48,050 --> 00:36:49,459 whatever happens, happens. 1310 00:36:49,460 --> 00:36:50,539 I think you're the opposite of the 1311 00:36:50,540 --> 00:36:52,309 ruminate. Ah, I think you are the 1312 00:36:52,310 --> 00:36:54,289 bias for action in real time. 1313 00:36:54,290 --> 00:36:56,239 And I think that quality I don't see 1314 00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:57,439 that a lot of people and I think 1315 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:58,939 this is probably one of the reasons 1316 00:36:58,940 --> 00:36:59,959 or the prime reason why I've been 1317 00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:00,859 massively successful. 1318 00:37:00,860 --> 00:37:01,939 I would say. 1319 00:37:01,940 --> 00:37:03,169 Yeah, so we've discovered somebody 1320 00:37:03,170 --> 00:37:04,759 else's shadow side on that one. 1321 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:06,409 I do like gathering information, but 1322 00:37:06,410 --> 00:37:08,479 I don't overly gather and I actually 1323 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:09,859 prefer gathering information from 1324 00:37:09,860 --> 00:37:11,449 conversations with people than 1325 00:37:11,450 --> 00:37:13,279 through data analysis 1326 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:14,599 or sitting with a spreadsheet for a 1327 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,009 long time. I love building a 1328 00:37:16,010 --> 00:37:17,599 spreadsheet. One of my favorite 1329 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:18,679 things like if I have to do a 1330 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,719 spreadsheet, I save it to the end 1331 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:22,609 as my dessert, my 1332 00:37:22,610 --> 00:37:24,079 special treat,. 1333 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,939 When I'm also remove data, 1334 00:37:25,940 --> 00:37:27,919 which. Brandon you can probably tell 1335 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,019 because I also have a preparer. 1336 00:37:30,020 --> 00:37:32,209 I hear things and then I'm like 1337 00:37:32,210 --> 00:37:33,439 it. Go back, check that. 1338 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,459 And I kind of get. Go away and 1339 00:37:35,460 --> 00:37:36,719 talk to people and have a look at 1340 00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:38,219 things or reads and stuff, then come 1341 00:37:38,220 --> 00:37:39,059 back again. 1342 00:37:39,060 --> 00:37:40,499 Which was always interesting for me 1343 00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:43,409 because then in board situations 1344 00:37:43,410 --> 00:37:44,939 I'm very quiet because I'm sort of 1345 00:37:44,940 --> 00:37:46,769 taking it and trying to figure out 1346 00:37:46,770 --> 00:37:48,419 what do I actually think? 1347 00:37:48,420 --> 00:37:49,859 And as I said, lots of CEOs that 1348 00:37:49,860 --> 00:37:52,019 I've worked with are also ruminates 1349 00:37:52,020 --> 00:37:54,119 and trying to see that not as that 1350 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,369 it doesn't have to necessarily be 1351 00:37:56,370 --> 00:37:58,139 a weakness or gaffe. 1352 00:37:58,140 --> 00:37:59,699 When we talk about being expert, 1353 00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:01,409 stern or spokesperson, sometimes 1354 00:38:01,410 --> 00:38:03,359 CEOs then shy away from that because 1355 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:04,499 they're like, well, I'm not very 1356 00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:06,659 this is not my strength versus 1357 00:38:06,660 --> 00:38:08,519 I feel like I and I'm not one 1358 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:09,479 of those people. I'm like a 1359 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,339 sufferer. I'll be like, I can 1360 00:38:11,340 --> 00:38:12,839 do this. I will do this. 1361 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,609 I just keep throwing myself at it in 1362 00:38:14,610 --> 00:38:16,109 some kind of form of self-love 1363 00:38:18,270 --> 00:38:20,039 that I then learned to speak in 1364 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,539 public because I kept doing it. 1365 00:38:21,540 --> 00:38:22,919 But actually it taught me to think 1366 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,149 more on my feet because if you go 1367 00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:25,559 into panels and stuff, you're you 1368 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:26,609 don't know what you're going to get lost 1369 00:38:26,610 --> 00:38:28,019 to you and you then have to be a bit 1370 00:38:28,020 --> 00:38:29,639 more kind of like, right, I've got 1371 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:31,169 to sort of have a point of view very 1372 00:38:31,170 --> 00:38:32,849 quickly. I've got to say something 1373 00:38:32,850 --> 00:38:35,189 interesting or at least try to 1374 00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:37,139 at this point in time so that 1375 00:38:37,140 --> 00:38:39,179 you help me is like not shying away 1376 00:38:39,180 --> 00:38:40,169 from public speaking. 1377 00:38:40,170 --> 00:38:41,609 I was like, Right, if I get public 1378 00:38:41,610 --> 00:38:43,439 speaking requests, I'm going 1379 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,899 to be on panels, definitely Q&A 1380 00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:46,949 style. 1381 00:38:46,950 --> 00:38:48,719 So if a bit more kind of statement 1382 00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:49,739 was coming. 1383 00:38:49,740 --> 00:38:51,809 So I definitely recommend that to. 1384 00:38:51,810 --> 00:38:53,669 I could do a panel or a Q&A 1385 00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:55,169 any day of the week having to do a 1386 00:38:55,170 --> 00:38:56,339 proper talk. 1387 00:38:56,340 --> 00:38:58,379 I hate because I have to think about 1388 00:38:58,380 --> 00:38:59,969 it. I have to have topics. 1389 00:38:59,970 --> 00:39:02,039 It has to have a flow 1390 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:03,839 that gives me all kinds of stress 1391 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,549 versus a Q&A or a panel. 1392 00:39:05,550 --> 00:39:06,539 And I find that I actually end up 1393 00:39:06,540 --> 00:39:08,639 with better ideas and insights 1394 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,769 I hadn't come up with yet 1395 00:39:10,770 --> 00:39:12,899 because I'm speaking off the cuff. 1396 00:39:12,900 --> 00:39:13,979 Going back to something that you 1397 00:39:13,980 --> 00:39:16,379 said that I wanted to get into 1398 00:39:16,380 --> 00:39:18,869 was that you'll hear something 1399 00:39:18,870 --> 00:39:20,279 and then you'll store it for later 1400 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:21,659 to investigate. 1401 00:39:21,660 --> 00:39:23,609 Whereas I hear something 1402 00:39:23,610 --> 00:39:24,989 and I immediately investigate. 1403 00:39:24,990 --> 00:39:27,089 Then why don't you investigate 1404 00:39:27,090 --> 00:39:28,439 when you first hear it? 1405 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,329 I quite often find that 1406 00:39:30,330 --> 00:39:32,039 there are things stored in my head 1407 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:33,869 somewhere that as it bubbles 1408 00:39:33,870 --> 00:39:35,609 away still in there, it kind of 1409 00:39:35,610 --> 00:39:37,169 works its way around. 1410 00:39:37,170 --> 00:39:38,309 Something will occur to me. 1411 00:39:38,310 --> 00:39:39,779 Or I'll think about other examples 1412 00:39:39,780 --> 00:39:41,429 where I might have seen this before, 1413 00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:43,319 or I remember an article I 1414 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:44,309 once read. 1415 00:39:44,310 --> 00:39:45,869 So actually, what happens in my 1416 00:39:45,870 --> 00:39:48,269 brain, my ruminating brain, 1417 00:39:48,270 --> 00:39:50,219 is that my brain keeps working 1418 00:39:50,220 --> 00:39:52,259 on it. And so I find that then 1419 00:39:52,260 --> 00:39:53,939 it kind of takes me down an avenue 1420 00:39:53,940 --> 00:39:55,379 to then kind of go and figure 1421 00:39:55,380 --> 00:39:56,699 something out, or I'll be like, Who? 1422 00:39:56,700 --> 00:39:57,569 Remember that person? 1423 00:39:57,570 --> 00:39:59,429 Actually, I kind of chat with them 1424 00:39:59,430 --> 00:40:01,379 and I sort of come back with 1425 00:40:01,380 --> 00:40:02,969 a bit more of a fully formed 1426 00:40:02,970 --> 00:40:04,799 opinion. So to say that I would 1427 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,359 these days, I mean, now that I'm a 1428 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:07,919 self a bit longer in the tooth, I 1429 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:09,869 have a tendency to I'll 1430 00:40:09,870 --> 00:40:12,719 share an opinion upfront. 1431 00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:14,279 However, I'm like, this is an 1432 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:15,869 unqualified opinion at this point, 1433 00:40:15,870 --> 00:40:17,669 but my gut tells me this. 1434 00:40:17,670 --> 00:40:19,649 I may go away, sleep on it, 1435 00:40:19,650 --> 00:40:21,179 have a shower, think about it, and 1436 00:40:21,180 --> 00:40:22,199 then come back with something 1437 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:23,489 slightly different. 1438 00:40:23,490 --> 00:40:25,319 But generally speaking, I go away 1439 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,149 and other things occur to me just 1440 00:40:27,150 --> 00:40:29,279 when my particular brain works. 1441 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:30,239 And it's not to say when I was 1442 00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:32,069 operating slightly different, 1443 00:40:32,070 --> 00:40:33,959 which is that I had, 1444 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:35,009 you know, obviously there was still 1445 00:40:35,010 --> 00:40:36,209 peace time, but there was also quite 1446 00:40:36,210 --> 00:40:37,949 a lot of war time and that be crisis 1447 00:40:37,950 --> 00:40:39,299 situations that would bubble up. 1448 00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:40,319 And then of course you can't do 1449 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:41,639 that. So like I need to have an 1450 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,109 opinion right now and I need to get 1451 00:40:43,110 --> 00:40:45,209 this thing and I would of course 1452 00:40:45,210 --> 00:40:46,109 go do that. 1453 00:40:46,110 --> 00:40:47,249 And then you learn by making 1454 00:40:47,250 --> 00:40:48,269 mistakes and all of that kind of 1455 00:40:48,270 --> 00:40:49,109 good stuff. 1456 00:40:49,110 --> 00:40:51,389 However, when I have the time, 1457 00:40:51,390 --> 00:40:53,399 I'd rather take the time 1458 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:54,779 because I know my brain works better 1459 00:40:54,780 --> 00:40:56,729 on something over a period of time. 1460 00:40:56,730 --> 00:40:58,019 I'm okay with that. 1461 00:40:58,020 --> 00:41:00,089 I'm a remedy to be quite open about 1462 00:41:00,090 --> 00:41:01,919 it. I may go When something 1463 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,259 else may come to me, I'll come back. 1464 00:41:04,260 --> 00:41:06,179 So here's a question for 1465 00:41:06,180 --> 00:41:07,529 the both of you, which is this 1466 00:41:07,530 --> 00:41:08,819 caregiver role. 1467 00:41:08,820 --> 00:41:10,709 So he said most CEOs come from 1468 00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:12,479 this background or have this 1469 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:13,679 archetype within them. 1470 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,599 I'm curious if you can tell us more 1471 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,369 about why that's the case, why 1472 00:41:17,370 --> 00:41:18,479 there's so many CEOs that are 1473 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,339 phenomenal caregivers. 1474 00:41:20,340 --> 00:41:22,319 I have a feeling that this is to do 1475 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,239 with that lovely 1476 00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:26,249 living in the gray peace 1477 00:41:26,250 --> 00:41:27,479 in organizations, right? 1478 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,849 So you end up as a CEO 1479 00:41:29,850 --> 00:41:31,829 being the person that is a 1480 00:41:31,830 --> 00:41:33,419 commercial business person who's 1481 00:41:33,420 --> 00:41:34,799 trying to think, right, what's the 1482 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,209 business need? What does it not need 1483 00:41:36,210 --> 00:41:37,559 at this point in time? 1484 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,419 And also being a person who 1485 00:41:39,420 --> 00:41:40,889 loves and cares for the team, 1486 00:41:40,890 --> 00:41:43,109 because again, as a caregiver 1487 00:41:43,110 --> 00:41:44,939 myself, it felt 1488 00:41:44,940 --> 00:41:46,199 to me when I was in organizations, 1489 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,179 even the big ones, that people in 1490 00:41:48,180 --> 00:41:50,309 teams that weren't mine 1491 00:41:50,310 --> 00:41:52,079 felt like my people. 1492 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:53,429 Like actually the whole company is 1493 00:41:53,430 --> 00:41:55,259 my team because I sort of 1494 00:41:55,260 --> 00:41:56,369 work on the whole company. 1495 00:41:56,370 --> 00:41:58,109 So I sort of worked across 1496 00:41:58,110 --> 00:41:59,999 everything. So I then mentor 1497 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,529 people in different teams and all 1498 00:42:01,530 --> 00:42:03,209 that sort of good stuff as well. 1499 00:42:03,210 --> 00:42:04,949 But that living in the gray I think 1500 00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:06,989 is very difficult sometimes 1501 00:42:06,990 --> 00:42:09,719 for a founder CEO 1502 00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:10,619 to do. 1503 00:42:10,620 --> 00:42:12,419 And what I mean by that is and 1504 00:42:12,420 --> 00:42:14,369 again, sometimes founder CEOs 1505 00:42:14,370 --> 00:42:16,259 I think can be a bit more business 1506 00:42:16,260 --> 00:42:18,179 commercial and a bit cutthroat 1507 00:42:18,180 --> 00:42:20,699 sometimes about people, honestly, 1508 00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:22,049 which sometimes they need to be 1509 00:42:22,050 --> 00:42:23,879 right. If you want to have a 1510 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,219 very highly performant organization, 1511 00:42:26,220 --> 00:42:28,289 you have to be very mindful 1512 00:42:28,290 --> 00:42:29,969 of performance management, giving 1513 00:42:29,970 --> 00:42:31,289 people feedback, all of this other 1514 00:42:31,290 --> 00:42:32,429 stuff. 1515 00:42:32,430 --> 00:42:34,009 And I. 1516 00:42:34,010 --> 00:42:36,249 Feel like sometimes 1517 00:42:36,250 --> 00:42:37,809 because also they're the founder in 1518 00:42:37,810 --> 00:42:39,609 this whole piece around founder 1519 00:42:39,610 --> 00:42:41,649 week, I mean, where 1520 00:42:41,650 --> 00:42:43,689 they kind of reveal it and 1521 00:42:43,690 --> 00:42:44,739 people sort of treat them at a 1522 00:42:44,740 --> 00:42:46,089 distance because it's like, well, 1523 00:42:46,090 --> 00:42:48,069 it's the founder, etc., etc.. 1524 00:42:48,070 --> 00:42:49,509 They may be one step away from 1525 00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:50,649 people which allows them to have a 1526 00:42:50,650 --> 00:42:52,929 bit more substantive, objective 1527 00:42:52,930 --> 00:42:54,519 judgment about them, but sometimes 1528 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,109 leads them down the path of not 1529 00:42:56,110 --> 00:42:58,329 really completely understanding 1530 00:42:58,330 --> 00:42:59,589 or knowing those people as well as 1531 00:42:59,590 --> 00:43:00,429 they could. 1532 00:43:00,430 --> 00:43:01,759 I felt the same way quite often. 1533 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,089 Then place the other path that 1534 00:43:04,090 --> 00:43:05,949 where they do know people 1535 00:43:05,950 --> 00:43:07,149 incredibly well if they're a 1536 00:43:07,150 --> 00:43:09,099 caregiver and they do understand 1537 00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:10,539 who these people are. 1538 00:43:10,540 --> 00:43:11,679 So I have a feeling that's where 1539 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,539 this comes from, that it's 1540 00:43:13,540 --> 00:43:14,829 sort of a yin and yang. 1541 00:43:14,830 --> 00:43:16,029 And again, I'm not saying that 1542 00:43:16,030 --> 00:43:18,039 founder CEOs own this like 1543 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:19,509 they and they're not nice. 1544 00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:20,589 Their teams are not saying that at 1545 00:43:20,590 --> 00:43:22,299 all. But I think delicate balance 1546 00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:24,129 between building a highly 1547 00:43:24,130 --> 00:43:26,079 performing organization and 1548 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:27,939 focusing on performance management 1549 00:43:27,940 --> 00:43:29,229 and how you've gotten the business 1550 00:43:29,230 --> 00:43:31,089 and who you need and who you don't 1551 00:43:31,090 --> 00:43:32,979 need and roles you need and all 1552 00:43:32,980 --> 00:43:34,329 of that. This kind of good stuff 1553 00:43:34,330 --> 00:43:35,619 when organizations become too 1554 00:43:35,620 --> 00:43:36,729 bloated and all that. 1555 00:43:36,730 --> 00:43:38,109 But I have a feeling that the CEO 1556 00:43:38,110 --> 00:43:40,359 sometimes is a foil to that 1557 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,609 place. The other side of it. 1558 00:43:42,610 --> 00:43:44,139 Yeah, I'm not a caregiver. 1559 00:43:47,350 --> 00:43:49,059 Bethany doubles down on that. 1560 00:43:49,060 --> 00:43:50,060 The cutthroat. 1561 00:43:51,790 --> 00:43:53,379 I think because of I'm an introvert, 1562 00:43:53,380 --> 00:43:54,879 I can have some very deep 1563 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,199 relationships with people, 1564 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,439 but it doesn't sway my opinion 1565 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,389 or my work relationship 1566 00:44:01,390 --> 00:44:02,799 with them. Like even if I have a 1567 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:04,689 very deep relationship, know about 1568 00:44:04,690 --> 00:44:06,219 them. If they're underperforming, I 1569 00:44:06,220 --> 00:44:07,989 will tell them if they need to leave 1570 00:44:07,990 --> 00:44:09,879 the organization, I 1571 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,259 will have them leave the organization, 1572 00:44:11,260 --> 00:44:13,419 but it's separate to my relationship 1573 00:44:13,420 --> 00:44:14,199 with them. 1574 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,269 But I do think that's caregiving 1575 00:44:16,270 --> 00:44:17,849 and that's my point. 1576 00:44:17,850 --> 00:44:18,999 But again, I don't want to offend 1577 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,739 founder CEOs, but actually I've 1578 00:44:20,740 --> 00:44:22,869 worked with a lot 1579 00:44:22,870 --> 00:44:24,699 in a coaching capacity 1580 00:44:24,700 --> 00:44:26,409 that we didn't. 1581 00:44:26,410 --> 00:44:28,299 Yeah, I would give you that. 1582 00:44:28,300 --> 00:44:30,939 So actually then as the CEO, 1583 00:44:30,940 --> 00:44:32,319 when I talk about caregiving, I'm 1584 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:33,609 more about that. 1585 00:44:33,610 --> 00:44:35,289 But you know, these people, you like 1586 00:44:35,290 --> 00:44:36,849 them, you're friendly towards them. 1587 00:44:36,850 --> 00:44:37,989 You may know a bit about sort of 1588 00:44:37,990 --> 00:44:39,549 their family and all of this good 1589 00:44:39,550 --> 00:44:41,589 stuff. And yet you will also 1590 00:44:41,590 --> 00:44:42,939 be the person who will give them 1591 00:44:42,940 --> 00:44:44,739 some feedback because it's kind and 1592 00:44:44,740 --> 00:44:45,879 it's a gift. 1593 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:47,889 That's when I hear caregiving in CEO 1594 00:44:47,890 --> 00:44:49,689 world is actually the marriage of 1595 00:44:49,690 --> 00:44:51,699 the two is not being 1596 00:44:51,700 --> 00:44:54,429 overly soft 1597 00:44:54,430 --> 00:44:56,259 is like being empathetic but also 1598 00:44:56,260 --> 00:44:58,269 holding the candle around being 1599 00:44:58,270 --> 00:44:59,559 performant. 1600 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,419 I think also for me, I 1601 00:45:01,420 --> 00:45:03,429 don't have a lot of relationships. 1602 00:45:03,430 --> 00:45:04,449 And so I guess I was thinking of a 1603 00:45:04,450 --> 00:45:06,129 caregiver as somebody that has a lot 1604 00:45:06,130 --> 00:45:07,179 of relationships across the 1605 00:45:07,180 --> 00:45:08,739 business, maybe because of my 1606 00:45:08,740 --> 00:45:10,689 introversion or just time. 1607 00:45:10,690 --> 00:45:12,759 Like I'll have limited deep 1608 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:14,739 relationships and then almost 1609 00:45:14,740 --> 00:45:16,659 no relationship with everybody else. 1610 00:45:16,660 --> 00:45:18,279 And I just go out of my way to have 1611 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:19,089 relationships. 1612 00:45:19,090 --> 00:45:21,309 Like I feel as though my leadership 1613 00:45:21,310 --> 00:45:23,349 style for the most part, 1614 00:45:23,350 --> 00:45:25,359 does not depend on individual 1615 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,219 relationships, and 1616 00:45:27,220 --> 00:45:29,169 those just happen because 1617 00:45:29,170 --> 00:45:31,119 of a byproduct of working with 1618 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,009 people or something has meant that 1619 00:45:33,010 --> 00:45:34,329 our paths have crossed in a more 1620 00:45:34,330 --> 00:45:35,529 meaningful way. 1621 00:45:35,530 --> 00:45:37,119 Is there a number of relationships 1622 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,159 as part of the caregiving element? 1623 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:40,149 If you think about it a slightly 1624 00:45:40,150 --> 00:45:41,559 different way, some characterized it 1625 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:42,909 really nicely for me the other day 1626 00:45:42,910 --> 00:45:44,319 when they were talking about 1627 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,179 sometimes dependent on 1628 00:45:46,180 --> 00:45:47,379 your personality. 1629 00:45:47,380 --> 00:45:49,269 You're either somebody who networks 1630 00:45:49,270 --> 00:45:51,099 for need because you want you 1631 00:45:51,100 --> 00:45:52,629 want need to do something and 1632 00:45:52,630 --> 00:45:54,579 therefore you go and 1633 00:45:54,580 --> 00:45:55,899 sort of create relationships in 1634 00:45:55,900 --> 00:45:57,789 order to do that, or you do it 1635 00:45:57,790 --> 00:46:00,309 in of itself, as in 1636 00:46:00,310 --> 00:46:02,109 these people in front of you and 1637 00:46:02,110 --> 00:46:03,219 you're curious about them and you 1638 00:46:03,220 --> 00:46:04,509 want to sort of learn a bit about 1639 00:46:04,510 --> 00:46:06,369 them and you may never work with 1640 00:46:06,370 --> 00:46:08,739 them or do something with them 1641 00:46:08,740 --> 00:46:10,269 because of how far away in the 1642 00:46:10,270 --> 00:46:12,279 organization they are to you. 1643 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:13,479 It doesn't matter anyway. 1644 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,099 You're curious enough that you would 1645 00:46:15,100 --> 00:46:16,869 go and seek them out and figure out 1646 00:46:16,870 --> 00:46:17,829 who they are. 1647 00:46:17,830 --> 00:46:19,389 And I think that's kind of that's a 1648 00:46:19,390 --> 00:46:21,039 good characterization because it's 1649 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:22,959 like you're more likely, 1650 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:24,909 therefore, to engage in 1651 00:46:24,910 --> 00:46:27,039 social situations for no 1652 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:27,969 purpose. 1653 00:46:27,970 --> 00:46:29,919 So no sort of work related 1654 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,259 or task related purpose, 1655 00:46:32,260 --> 00:46:34,079 you're more likely to be there 1656 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:35,229 to be around. 1657 00:46:35,230 --> 00:46:36,579 And again, you know, it's 1658 00:46:36,580 --> 00:46:38,289 interesting because I would say that 1659 00:46:38,290 --> 00:46:40,119 I'm I'm actually I'm also 1660 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,519 an introvert and I have a few 1661 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,409 deep relationships, 1662 00:46:44,410 --> 00:46:45,909 but I'm also incredibly people 1663 00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:46,689 curious. 1664 00:46:46,690 --> 00:46:48,939 So I love talking to new people, 1665 00:46:48,940 --> 00:46:50,199 but it takes me a lot of energy to 1666 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:51,669 do that if I don't know them. 1667 00:46:51,670 --> 00:46:54,009 And it's a learned skill over time. 1668 00:46:54,010 --> 00:46:55,839 Similarly, I feel like, you know, if 1669 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:57,399 we think about caregiving as having 1670 00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,229 these two sides of this coin, when 1671 00:46:59,230 --> 00:47:01,209 I was younger in my career, I look 1672 00:47:01,210 --> 00:47:02,769 younger in my career, I feel like I 1673 00:47:02,770 --> 00:47:04,239 was very soft indeed. 1674 00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:05,889 So I'd more of the empathy side, 1675 00:47:05,890 --> 00:47:08,079 less of the other side, until 1676 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,149 I sort of had a bit of a realization 1677 00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:12,039 of like, this is helping 1678 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:13,539 people, but actually giving them 1679 00:47:13,540 --> 00:47:15,549 feedback, making sure that they're 1680 00:47:15,550 --> 00:47:16,929 very valid in the organization that 1681 00:47:16,930 --> 00:47:18,369 they're performing, that it's 1682 00:47:18,370 --> 00:47:19,269 helping them. 1683 00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:20,589 I think what you said, Bethany, is 1684 00:47:20,590 --> 00:47:22,059 right on point, which is this one 1685 00:47:22,060 --> 00:47:23,679 too many leadership style, where you 1686 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:25,179 have a large organization and you 1687 00:47:25,180 --> 00:47:27,099 have to project yourself or people 1688 00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:29,499 understand who you are and 1689 00:47:29,500 --> 00:47:31,809 get some feeling of empathy 1690 00:47:31,810 --> 00:47:33,179 or connection or. 1691 00:47:33,180 --> 00:47:34,999 Or residents or they understand 1692 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,199 who Bethany is, and therefore that 1693 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:37,549 means something to them. 1694 00:47:37,550 --> 00:47:39,589 Thereby, the leadership overlay 1695 00:47:39,590 --> 00:47:41,059 on top of that becomes much more 1696 00:47:41,060 --> 00:47:42,049 powerful in a sense. 1697 00:47:42,050 --> 00:47:43,129 I think you're very good at this 1698 00:47:43,130 --> 00:47:44,419 because I think your ability to 1699 00:47:44,420 --> 00:47:46,279 express vulnerability, 1700 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,139 openness, compassion, I 1701 00:47:48,140 --> 00:47:49,369 think your ability to project that 1702 00:47:49,370 --> 00:47:51,379 on a one to many basis, I almost 1703 00:47:51,380 --> 00:47:53,089 guarantee you, serves you quite well 1704 00:47:53,090 --> 00:47:54,349 in terms of creating connections 1705 00:47:54,350 --> 00:47:55,909 with individuals, even if you don't 1706 00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:56,839 realize it. 1707 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:58,009 Which happens most of the time. 1708 00:47:58,010 --> 00:48:00,169 But I will be more might 1709 00:48:00,170 --> 00:48:01,849 because there will always be people 1710 00:48:01,850 --> 00:48:03,649 that see something in me that upsets 1711 00:48:03,650 --> 00:48:05,389 them because it sees show something 1712 00:48:05,390 --> 00:48:06,769 in them that they don't like. 1713 00:48:06,770 --> 00:48:08,959 And I know that there's a probably 1714 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,869 a core of 20, 30% 1715 00:48:11,870 --> 00:48:13,939 who don't get 1716 00:48:13,940 --> 00:48:16,309 me like me, fear me, 1717 00:48:16,310 --> 00:48:18,319 have whatever issues with me. 1718 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,779 But at this point I just don't care. 1719 00:48:20,780 --> 00:48:22,549 Like I should care, but I don't care 1720 00:48:22,550 --> 00:48:24,169 because I just don't have time for 1721 00:48:24,170 --> 00:48:25,999 it. And it's a reflection of 1722 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:26,989 something that's going on in their 1723 00:48:26,990 --> 00:48:28,519 own minds, not on mine. 1724 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,139 And I've set out my stall and I am 1725 00:48:30,140 --> 00:48:31,609 who I am. And if you don't like me, 1726 00:48:31,610 --> 00:48:33,319 then don't listen to me. 1727 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:34,249 Don't follow me. 1728 00:48:34,250 --> 00:48:36,229 Don't stay at the company. 1729 00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:37,429 There's plenty of space for people 1730 00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:38,659 who do want to. 1731 00:48:38,660 --> 00:48:39,679 Should you care? 1732 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:40,759 I don't know. Maybe I should care, 1733 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,469 but I don't think they see their 1734 00:48:42,470 --> 00:48:44,689 light side. Dark side don't know. 1735 00:48:44,690 --> 00:48:46,669 We are wired to try 1736 00:48:46,670 --> 00:48:47,659 to figure out other people's 1737 00:48:47,660 --> 00:48:49,309 behavior. Why are they doing that? 1738 00:48:49,310 --> 00:48:50,249 What's going on? 1739 00:48:50,250 --> 00:48:51,619 Why are they doing? 1740 00:48:51,620 --> 00:48:53,479 And the other and we fundamentally 1741 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,459 just basically guess 1742 00:48:55,460 --> 00:48:56,359 all the time. 1743 00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,669 And also in lots of times, 1744 00:48:58,670 --> 00:49:00,019 lots of people are not curious 1745 00:49:00,020 --> 00:49:01,729 enough to ask what's going on for 1746 00:49:01,730 --> 00:49:02,539 that other person. 1747 00:49:02,540 --> 00:49:04,519 Because most times, as you say, 1748 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,529 Beth, the thing that you are 1749 00:49:06,530 --> 00:49:07,969 receiving, it's got nothing to do 1750 00:49:07,970 --> 00:49:09,799 with you. It's actually all to 1751 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,419 do with what's happening in their 1752 00:49:11,420 --> 00:49:13,249 world and how they have that. 1753 00:49:13,250 --> 00:49:15,079 Then the narrative they've created 1754 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,239 around it could be to do with you 1755 00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:18,649 depending on how you act towards 1756 00:49:18,650 --> 00:49:19,819 people. I'm not saying all behavior 1757 00:49:19,820 --> 00:49:21,949 is acceptable by any means, 1758 00:49:21,950 --> 00:49:23,899 but quite often it has nothing 1759 00:49:23,900 --> 00:49:24,769 to do with you. 1760 00:49:24,770 --> 00:49:26,929 It's closest to the person. 1761 00:49:26,930 --> 00:49:29,059 So if everybody 1762 00:49:29,060 --> 00:49:30,589 of our listeners can only take one 1763 00:49:30,590 --> 00:49:31,639 thing away from today's 1764 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:33,739 conversation, what is it? 1765 00:49:33,740 --> 00:49:35,209 Say I'm taking back to something 1766 00:49:35,210 --> 00:49:36,679 that we said in the last episode of 1767 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,689 this that's come up again here, 1768 00:49:38,690 --> 00:49:40,519 which is, So how 1769 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,229 do you firstly truly embrace the 1770 00:49:42,230 --> 00:49:44,269 things that are you 1771 00:49:44,270 --> 00:49:46,249 say all the things that are you 1772 00:49:46,250 --> 00:49:47,899 in terms of your skills, but also in 1773 00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:49,159 terms of your characteristics, 1774 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,079 personality, that sort of thing. 1775 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:52,389 How do you embrace that and use that 1776 00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:53,479 and what you do? 1777 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,789 But also how do you 1778 00:49:55,790 --> 00:49:57,919 acknowledge there may be shadows 1779 00:49:57,920 --> 00:49:59,059 here, some of which you could do 1780 00:49:59,060 --> 00:50:00,229 something about, some of which you 1781 00:50:00,230 --> 00:50:02,299 can't and understand them? 1782 00:50:02,300 --> 00:50:03,559 Because I think the more self-aware 1783 00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:04,939 we are about some of these things, 1784 00:50:04,940 --> 00:50:06,709 the better off will be as to be 1785 00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:08,059 choice for about what we decide to 1786 00:50:08,060 --> 00:50:09,169 do. 1787 00:50:09,170 --> 00:50:11,119 And if some of the points here 1788 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,069 have resonated for you in terms 1789 00:50:13,070 --> 00:50:15,019 of development points and could 1790 00:50:15,020 --> 00:50:16,639 be some areas that you may want to 1791 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:18,079 work on know. 1792 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:19,429 And so take note of things. 1793 00:50:19,430 --> 00:50:21,599 And work on with Davinia the SEO 1794 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,029 coach. Not that I'm just going to do 1795 00:50:23,030 --> 00:50:24,889 the plug for you, so if you feel 1796 00:50:24,890 --> 00:50:26,929 like you need to do some 1797 00:50:26,930 --> 00:50:28,789 coaching work and any 1798 00:50:28,790 --> 00:50:30,689 of this has sparked 1799 00:50:30,690 --> 00:50:32,389 a curiosity, I highly recommend 1800 00:50:32,390 --> 00:50:33,859 getting in touch with Davinia. 1801 00:50:33,860 --> 00:50:35,029 Thank you once again Davinia for 1802 00:50:35,030 --> 00:50:36,349 joining us on the operations room. 1803 00:50:36,350 --> 00:50:37,579 If you like what you hear, please 1804 00:50:37,580 --> 00:50:39,319 leave a comment or subscribe and we 1805 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:40,399 will see you next week.