1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,290 John Rossman: What are we talking about today? 2 00:00:01,350 --> 00:00:03,690 Dan Moore: Your whole life history in 30 minutes or less? 3 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,450 John Rossman: That won't be interesting for anybody. 4 00:00:07,290 --> 00:00:14,640 Dan Moore: Really great to meet you today. But I feel like I already know you since about half our 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:19,440 household budget goes to Amazon Marketplace, which of course, you were the executive responsible for 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:20,730 launching and scaling that. 7 00:00:20,790 --> 00:00:25,560 John Rossman: Yeah, some people see that as a real feature. Some people see that as a bug. So yes. 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:31,170 Dan Moore: I'm so interested in your story, I know you started off at at Jasmine High School, I'm a 9 00:00:31,170 --> 00:00:33,690 real fan of Jesuit education. 10 00:00:33,930 --> 00:00:39,570 John Rossman: The real quality that I got out of that was they just had high expectations for me, 11 00:00:39,690 --> 00:00:46,230 right. And I had never been in an environment where people had high expectations for me, in 12 00:00:46,230 --> 00:00:51,780 general, like, I would say, the environment I had come from people kind of had low expectations. And 13 00:00:51,780 --> 00:00:57,780 so wow, you know, start thinking about making a bigger impact. I went to Oregon State was lucky to 14 00:00:57,780 --> 00:01:02,280 get a degree in Industrial Engineering joined a consulting firm, but I think one of the big pivot 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:09,570 points was joining the Amazon. So I joined Amazon in early 2002. I was there for about four years, I 16 00:01:09,570 --> 00:01:15,570 launched the marketplace business, which is third party selling@amazon.com. And what I learned from 17 00:01:15,570 --> 00:01:24,930 there just completely reformed me as a problem solver as a communicator, as a leader that helps 18 00:01:24,930 --> 00:01:31,620 companies and leaders reimagine you know what their business should be in the digital era. And 19 00:01:31,620 --> 00:01:36,990 then, you know, writing the books that I've written, the Amazon way, been the one that we've 20 00:01:36,990 --> 00:01:43,980 done three editions of, you know, that combination of taking the learnings from Amazon and sharing 21 00:01:43,980 --> 00:01:50,250 them with others, that's really become, you know, my mission, which is helping companies win and 22 00:01:50,250 --> 00:01:56,760 compete in the digital era. And I use Amazon and a bunch of other reference points to give people not 23 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:03,870 monumental shifts that they have to do, but little nudges little things that we can do to help us 24 00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:10,470 take advantage of the situation we're in and to learn, like what it means to compete in the 25 00:02:10,470 --> 00:02:11,190 digital era. 26 00:02:12,210 --> 00:02:15,600 Dan Moore: You know, one thing that can be a bit daunting is when we have a company that is not the 27 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,920 size of Amazon to think how in the world could ever get some lessons from a company that large 28 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:24,990 and that successful? What What would you say to say a small business owner would be one real key 29 00:02:24,990 --> 00:02:29,250 finding for somebody that is at a very competitive marketplace and try to figure it figure their way 30 00:02:29,250 --> 00:02:29,550 out. 31 00:02:29,850 --> 00:02:34,350 John Rossman: I'm gonna answer that bigger than just one thing. So first of all, you know, what 32 00:02:34,350 --> 00:02:39,990 everybody remembers is kind of about Amazon is like, you know, where they are today, the last 10 33 00:02:39,990 --> 00:02:45,900 years where it's just been exponential growth in the stock has reflected that in everything. Amazon 34 00:02:45,900 --> 00:02:53,580 wasn't always the size, right. And there was about a 10 year period where stock was flat, a lot of 35 00:02:53,580 --> 00:03:00,330 doubters and naysayers relative to their business model, and they earned everything that they got 36 00:03:00,510 --> 00:03:06,420 these principles came from that era. And so these are not big company principles, these can be 37 00:03:06,420 --> 00:03:12,960 applied a lot of them as an individual, as a team as an enterprise. And it has nothing to do with 38 00:03:12,990 --> 00:03:20,400 either the industry you're in, or the size of the teams. But you know, there's there's no 16 39 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,750 leadership principles at Amazon. The first is probably the most famous, it's about customer 40 00:03:24,750 --> 00:03:29,220 obsession. And it reads, leaders start with the customer and work backwards, they work vigorously 41 00:03:29,220 --> 00:03:34,980 to earn and keep customer trust. And while they pay attention to competitors, they obsess about 42 00:03:34,980 --> 00:03:42,270 customers. Now, you can't have just customer obsession, but leading with customer insights, 43 00:03:42,750 --> 00:03:49,560 being curious about your customer bigger and broader than just maybe how you intersect with 44 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:54,750 them today, how you serve them today, your products or services really sets up so many great 45 00:03:54,750 --> 00:04:01,830 things for a business and for a team. And so if there's one thing if I if I'm forced to deliver 46 00:04:01,830 --> 00:04:10,530 one thing from Amazon, the one thing would be be extremely curious about your customers, the jobs 47 00:04:10,530 --> 00:04:14,670 they're doing the frustrations they have like what happens on a bad day, you know, everybody who 48 00:04:14,970 --> 00:04:19,380 tends to when you're in business, you kind of focus on like, well, how things work in general 49 00:04:19,380 --> 00:04:24,630 right now not be curious about what happens when things don't work. In general, when they don't 50 00:04:24,630 --> 00:04:32,370 work and be a problem solver, be a builder to build better approaches for helping your customers 51 00:04:32,370 --> 00:04:37,530 in those moments. And that's the essence of everything from Amazon is start with the customer 52 00:04:37,530 --> 00:04:38,460 and work backwards. 53 00:04:39,230 --> 00:04:43,970 Dan Moore: Which any size business or organization that's involved with people can do exactly, 54 00:04:44,270 --> 00:04:48,500 because we can get into their bad days we can figure out ways to make those days not so bad. And 55 00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:50,660 that's when they want to work with us for a long period of time. 56 00:04:51,110 --> 00:04:57,770 John Rossman: And again, think about a broad customer experience, not just how your product or 57 00:04:57,770 --> 00:05:03,860 service is being used. You want I understand that intently. But understand upstream and downstream 58 00:05:03,860 --> 00:05:10,010 to it will give you better insight into your product and service. And you'll probably gain 59 00:05:10,010 --> 00:05:16,130 ideas of how to serve them bigger and broader than just what you do. And that's really been, you 60 00:05:16,130 --> 00:05:22,670 know, if you think about when I was at Amazon 90% of the business was books, music video, right? 61 00:05:22,790 --> 00:05:27,770 Think about where Amazon is today, the conglomerate business that Amazon has today. And 62 00:05:27,770 --> 00:05:35,060 it was really that mindset of exploring different types of customers and the broad customer 63 00:05:35,060 --> 00:05:41,750 experience, not just how you're working with them today, that's really been the catalyst that has 64 00:05:41,750 --> 00:05:49,940 taken them on to a journey that there was no plan, there was no vision, nobody predicted that Amazon 65 00:05:49,940 --> 00:05:56,330 would be the world's biggest cloud technology company in the world. Nobody predicted that Amazon 66 00:05:56,330 --> 00:06:03,410 would be the most dynamic and innovative logistics company in the world. Like nobody saw those things 67 00:06:03,410 --> 00:06:06,410 coming. It was because they explored customer experiences. 68 00:06:06,470 --> 00:06:09,080 Dan Moore: Customer obsession doesn't have a time stamp on it. 69 00:06:09,170 --> 00:06:14,360 John Rossman: No, I think that patience element, understanding what to be patient for and what to 70 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:22,760 be impatient for is a real business superpower for leaders and Amazon. I think one of their real 71 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:28,700 superpowers is the ability to be patient in the right way uncertain investments. Bezos has been 72 00:06:28,700 --> 00:06:35,570 quoted several times of saying, just because on some investments, he can be patient for seven to 73 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:42,470 eight years before payback versus his competitors, which have 18 to 36 months, it allows him to 74 00:06:42,470 --> 00:06:47,600 compete completely differently, he can do things that his competitors can't follow. So that 75 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:54,980 patients can be a real if you think long term can be a real defining feature of how you create 76 00:06:54,980 --> 00:06:59,720 legacy and how you compete and enduring business that competes for the long term. 77 00:07:00,230 --> 00:07:03,800 Dan Moore: John, even though your career is full of stars on it, I know that you've had some brick 78 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,820 walls along the way. What kind of strategies would you share with us regarding when something 79 00:07:07,850 --> 00:07:12,560 unexpected, completely out of the blue obstacle, just derails everything, knocks you flat on your 80 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:12,890 butt? 81 00:07:13,500 --> 00:07:19,530 John Rossman: Well, understand what's within your control. You know, the 14 leadership principles at 82 00:07:19,530 --> 00:07:28,170 Amazon is deliver results. And what it talks about is that leaders deliver hard results despite 83 00:07:28,170 --> 00:07:35,940 setbacks despite dependencies. And that we focus on the the controllable inputs more than we focus 84 00:07:35,940 --> 00:07:42,330 on the uncontrollable outputs. And so in life in business, especially if you're doing hard, 85 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:48,600 unpredictable, innovative things, you need to have a plan, but things never go to plan, right? You 86 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,130 better love setbacks, especially if you're going to be an innovator and a game changer. Just always 87 00:07:53,130 --> 00:07:59,250 be thinking about what's your next best available step, right? Understand your controllable inputs 88 00:07:59,250 --> 00:08:05,070 versus, you know, kind of the outputs, you want the goals that you have, but realizing, you know, 89 00:08:05,070 --> 00:08:10,230 there's a lot of factors that go on outside of your control relative to achieving those goals. 90 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,570 Just understand your next best available step. 91 00:08:12,690 --> 00:08:16,350 Dan Moore: Yeah, I'm glad you blew that up for us. Because when you look at the words, deliver 92 00:08:16,350 --> 00:08:20,820 results, it seems to be outcome based on what you're saying is if we look at what we control, 93 00:08:20,820 --> 00:08:24,840 which are the inputs, ultimately, the outcomes are going to happen the way we want them to provide, 94 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,240 we're doing the inputs correctly, and with the right focus. 95 00:08:27,510 --> 00:08:31,290 John Rossman: And you do want those to have those outputs, as you talked about, in fact, one of the 96 00:08:31,290 --> 00:08:38,760 leadership principles is about thinking big and encourages leaders to create inspiring visions for 97 00:08:38,820 --> 00:08:42,900 you know what a product or a service would have business could be. But that's why you need the 98 00:08:42,900 --> 00:08:49,170 complement of Yes, but break it down to the small controllable steps that you're going to take this 99 00:08:49,170 --> 00:08:54,780 year, this quarter, this month, this week today, in order to get there. And that's how you build 100 00:08:54,780 --> 00:08:59,520 towards those things. And sometimes the outputs come or the outcomes come into different flavors. 101 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:05,880 Sometimes they take longer, sometimes you get outcomes that you never intended or saw. But that 102 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:12,150 balancing factor of thinking long term thinking big, but bringing it back to like, a manageable 103 00:09:12,150 --> 00:09:18,750 timeframe, and what are we in control of what can we do next? That's that's where, you know, action 104 00:09:18,780 --> 00:09:22,950 matters. And and you know, where you're in full control. 105 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,240 Dan Moore: I like that, you know, I think that vision is kind of the fuel in the tank. And what 106 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,350 we do with our hands on the steering wheel and the shifter and the turn signals are the control was 107 00:09:31,350 --> 00:09:34,230 it really cut that fuel to get someplace we want it to go? 108 00:09:34,770 --> 00:09:39,090 John Rossman: Yeah, there's a good business planning tool goal setting tool that's that's 109 00:09:39,090 --> 00:09:45,330 pretty popular these days. That is in line with this notion we're talking about it's called OKRs 110 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,910 objectives and key results. And it's essentially says you set your goals, your objectives, which 111 00:09:50,910 --> 00:09:56,400 could be a year long or two year long objectives, but then you create key results that are probably 112 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,050 no more than 90 days, right? And well, those these are the key things we're going Gonna get done over 113 00:10:01,050 --> 00:10:08,250 the next 30 to 90 days that we believe will lead to this objective. And so it just helps create 114 00:10:08,250 --> 00:10:12,990 this kind of zoom out zoom in, you know, kind of mindset that we're talking about. 115 00:10:13,260 --> 00:10:16,890 Dan Moore: When I started out in sales at the age of 18. They said, You want to have a great summer 116 00:10:16,890 --> 00:10:20,430 you want to do really well, but the main thing you'd focus on is the next two hours. 117 00:10:20,580 --> 00:10:25,290 John Rossman: Yeah, I've got two boys that have just graduated college. And, you know, one of them 118 00:10:25,290 --> 00:10:30,960 asked me, like, what's one thing you do that you think you think I should do? And I said, on Sunday 119 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:36,390 nights, I sit down, and I write my to do list for the week, you know, that's, that's the timeframe 120 00:10:36,390 --> 00:10:42,660 that helps me out is thinking about the big things I need to get done this week. And I actually think 121 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:47,220 forward to the next week, because so many things are like setting up meetings, and you typically 122 00:10:47,220 --> 00:10:52,470 need two weeks to kind of get a meeting set up and everything. And that that, you know, kind of to do 123 00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:57,660 list orientation is, you know, a real healthy little habit. 124 00:10:57,870 --> 00:11:01,860 Dan Moore: Right? Would you say that's one of the ways that you keep yourself in a strong motivated 125 00:11:01,860 --> 00:11:05,640 mode, instead of just going into the coasting mode, and sitting back and enjoying all the 126 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:06,360 accolades? 127 00:11:06,570 --> 00:11:14,970 John Rossman: I love problem solving, like I love helping a team see a path where today they don't 128 00:11:14,970 --> 00:11:20,700 see a path, that's that's ultimately, it's, it's kind of my superpower, it's what I really enjoy 129 00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:26,700 doing. And, and seeing a team achieve success and see potential where they were kind of stuck 130 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:33,630 before. That's what really is the fuel in my tank. These are just kind of some of the tools that help 131 00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:39,300 keep me prioritize relative to to achieving that. And I love sharing it, I love writing the books 132 00:11:39,300 --> 00:11:44,010 that I do. And that helps me think better, and helps pass it on. 133 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,510 Dan Moore: So problem solving is a really cool thing to talk about for a second because you have 134 00:11:48,510 --> 00:11:52,920 the ability to take a perspective that maybe person too close to can't really see what other 135 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:57,600 kinds of insights would you put to people that are faced with problems? In general, I guess, what's 136 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,320 the mindset you would adopt toward what people would say as a problem instead of throwing their 137 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:02,220 hands up in the air? 138 00:12:02,610 --> 00:12:09,360 John Rossman: Well, there's lots of little tricks, right? Problem, reframing can be a really powerful 139 00:12:09,390 --> 00:12:16,110 tool. And reframing just basically says, like, restate the situation, your problem in different 140 00:12:16,110 --> 00:12:21,990 terms. And that can help you see things from a different perspective, I think, again, 141 00:12:22,020 --> 00:12:26,550 understanding kind of like what you're in control of, versus what you're not in control of is a 142 00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:33,840 helpful thing relative to problem solving. And so many times, especially in business, one aspect 143 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:40,530 that doesn't get explored enough is incentives, creating the right incentive systems, especially 144 00:12:40,530 --> 00:12:46,800 when you need to get people you know, in your ecosystem moving to help accomplish something, 145 00:12:46,950 --> 00:12:52,890 thinking through incentive systems is a is a real interesting way of exploring, like, oh, a 146 00:12:52,890 --> 00:13:01,170 different way of creating action, right. And so that's where, like, systems dynamic is a powerful 147 00:13:01,260 --> 00:13:08,100 framework and study to use, because it helps show the forces between different organizations 148 00:13:08,100 --> 00:13:14,640 capabilities, factors that are in play. And so you start to see the relativity and how these things 149 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:19,770 work together. And you'll spot opportunities. Amazon has a famous version of kind of their 150 00:13:19,770 --> 00:13:25,920 system dynamic. It's the Amazon flywheel, and it basically was a simple articulation of their 151 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:32,010 business strategy. And so it allowed us to state our business strategy, both to our team and to the 152 00:13:32,010 --> 00:13:37,290 market to the investors and so that everybody could get it. It was a simple but not simplistic 153 00:13:37,290 --> 00:13:43,530 point of view of communicating what we were trying to get done, by adding selection by adding sellers 154 00:13:43,530 --> 00:13:48,450 to create growth, which created a great customer experience, which spun the flywheel that's a 155 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:56,070 system dynamic mindset at work. And some of those tools for some of the more complex and dynamic 156 00:13:56,070 --> 00:13:57,840 situations can be really helpful. 157 00:13:58,740 --> 00:14:02,040 Dan Moore: And flywheels are all based on momentum and keeping that momentum strong. 158 00:14:02,250 --> 00:14:08,790 John Rossman: Partly, it's like, what's the most leverage position where we insert energy that can 159 00:14:08,790 --> 00:14:14,700 be resources, time, effort, energy to help create that moment? Because oftentimes, like, Oh, we 160 00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:18,930 don't, we're not getting that momentum, or we need to create that momentum or accelerate that 161 00:14:18,930 --> 00:14:24,720 momentum. And by having an understanding of that flywheel, then you understand well, that's my 162 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:30,990 point of leverage. If I put a little bit of pressure there. The theory is, the hypothesis is, 163 00:14:30,990 --> 00:14:34,830 is that that will create momentum that we get to take advantage of. 164 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,330 Dan Moore: You spoke about an incentive systems job. What about incentives that don't involve 165 00:14:39,330 --> 00:14:39,960 cash? 166 00:14:40,410 --> 00:14:44,850 John Rossman: There's all sorts of incentive systems that don't involve cash. And you know, so 167 00:14:44,850 --> 00:14:52,290 when I think about like the Amazon market place of business, we had to think through incentives of, 168 00:14:52,410 --> 00:15:00,450 well how other than just sales, how do we create incentives that help our sellers do that? right 169 00:15:00,450 --> 00:15:08,340 thing on behalf of our customers, which was a key part of the flywheel. So we, we developed a set of 170 00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:15,840 tools and a set of measures, KPIs, key performance indicators, metrics, that gave the sellers in a 171 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:21,540 very scalable way, meaning we didn't have to put a lot of ongoing effort to it. We built tools and 172 00:15:21,540 --> 00:15:28,410 technologies that helped them do the right thing. And then some incentives to motivate them to do 173 00:15:28,410 --> 00:15:36,510 that, for example, if they started slipping on in stock percentages, or on time delivery 174 00:15:36,510 --> 00:15:43,050 percentages, guess what their search results started to dwindle down a little bit, you know, in 175 00:15:43,050 --> 00:15:47,790 everything. So you could say, well, that's a cash incentive. It's kind of an indirect cash 176 00:15:48,030 --> 00:15:53,820 incentive. But it's not a direct penalty. It's a subtle, like you do the right thing, we're going 177 00:15:53,820 --> 00:15:58,290 to help you add a little bit more you don't treat our customers well, we're going to penalize you a 178 00:15:58,290 --> 00:15:58,770 little bit. 179 00:15:58,950 --> 00:16:02,820 Dan Moore: So that's an example using the right kind of leverage all focus on what's best for the 180 00:16:02,820 --> 00:16:07,140 customer, that obsession with the customer experience, right? You know, a lot of our 181 00:16:07,140 --> 00:16:11,190 listeners are in pretty good pathways in their lives right now. Things are joyful, and they're 182 00:16:11,190 --> 00:16:14,940 feeling good about things, got some others that are kind of discouraged, and they're kind of down, 183 00:16:15,060 --> 00:16:18,840 what advice would you give to somebody that has just hit a point where they don't know where to 184 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,900 turn, they don't know what to do next, I guess seeking words of encouragement. 185 00:16:22,590 --> 00:16:27,480 John Rossman: You know, I'd say you learn something that you can put to work today, right. 186 00:16:27,510 --> 00:16:32,460 And that could be in your job could be in your life, that would be one thing. And then when you 187 00:16:32,460 --> 00:16:40,140 feel good physically, it tends to help you just be more optimistic, like I believe in the power of 188 00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:45,210 exercise, not just because of the physical benefits, but because of the positive mental 189 00:16:45,210 --> 00:16:49,650 benefits out of it. And so if you're not feeling great, go get a good workout in. 190 00:16:50,010 --> 00:16:53,730 Dan Moore: It gets the endorphins moving in the bloodstream in the right direction. But also, it's 191 00:16:53,730 --> 00:16:57,420 a feeling of pride and satisfaction that we did something that maybe the moment we didn't feel 192 00:16:57,420 --> 00:17:01,500 like doing. That's right, you get something done. Kind of a reminder that if we can get one thing 193 00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:06,000 done, we can maybe get another thing done just breaks that logjam of not going into your action 194 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:06,420 at all. 195 00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:11,070 John Rossman: It's just the habit of kind of taking the next best available action, right like 196 00:17:11,070 --> 00:17:15,390 that back to something we've already talked about, which is like, you know, when something's got you 197 00:17:15,390 --> 00:17:20,340 down, will perplex just be leaning forward and asking, well, what's the next best available step? 198 00:17:20,550 --> 00:17:24,030 Dan Moore: That's a good one, because often, the next step is not going to look like the best one, 199 00:17:24,060 --> 00:17:27,750 but he's the only one available. If it is we're going to take it otherwise, we're going to assess 200 00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:32,130 and take a better one. But we opened up by you sharing that your early schooling helped you 201 00:17:32,130 --> 00:17:36,660 understand the importance of high standards, people with high expectations that you've not 202 00:17:36,660 --> 00:17:41,580 experienced that before, at a more of a societal level, is there something we can apply from that 203 00:17:41,670 --> 00:17:46,380 to our nation to help people be the shining city on the hill that was once envisioned? 204 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:55,110 John Rossman: I think the ability to have open discourse, respectful discourse, and welcome 205 00:17:55,230 --> 00:18:03,420 contrary views insincere ways, that is the basis for so much that can be accomplished nationally, 206 00:18:03,420 --> 00:18:09,780 internationally, whenever you can understand others better, I think that you learn and you 207 00:18:09,780 --> 00:18:17,670 figure out where you can make progress. So one of the leadership principles, talks about this, learn 208 00:18:17,670 --> 00:18:22,020 and be curious as the leadership principle, leaders are never done learning and always seek to 209 00:18:22,020 --> 00:18:27,600 improve themselves. They're curious about new possibilities and act to explore them. They seek 210 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:35,310 diverse perspectives and work to disconfirm their beliefs. And what we tend to do is just live in a 211 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:41,340 echo chamber, right, like people telling us what we already believe in. And I think in both 212 00:18:41,340 --> 00:18:49,200 business, as well as societal that that's, that's a danger when all you're hearing is the stuff that 213 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:55,410 you absolutely believe in, that you need to be open towards discourse and hearing things that you 214 00:18:55,410 --> 00:18:58,590 may not necessarily believe in. And that's what real communication is. 215 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,040 Dan Moore: Avoiding those subtle forms of conformational bias. 216 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:07,620 John Rossman: That's right, that I mean, that is what confirmation bias is is just listening to 217 00:19:07,620 --> 00:19:09,390 stuff that tells you what you already believe. 218 00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:14,550 Dan Moore: John, thank you time with you goes really really fast. I appreciate your insights. 219 00:19:14,550 --> 00:19:18,360 Appreciate the life that you lead, and the good things that you've done for our world and know 220 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:19,650 that you will continue to do. 221 00:19:19,980 --> 00:19:24,210 John Rossman: Thank you and back atcha, thanks for everything that your show does and the 222 00:19:24,210 --> 00:19:24,960 conversation.