>> Sebastian: Hello there. Welcome to the herbcast, the podcast

from Herbal Reality, delving into the plant powered world of

herbalism.

So, do you know your echinacea from your eleutherococcus

or your polyphenol from your polysaccharides? Whether

you're a budding herbalist, an inquisitive health professional,

or a botanical beginner, herbcast is here to

inform and inspire you on your journey to integrating herbs in our

everyday lives. So settle down, turn up,

and let's start today's episode of the Herbal Reality

Herbcast.

>> Simon: Hello, Sebastian. Thanks very much for joining

us today. You're probably best known as the founder,

20 years ago, isn't it, of, Pukka Herbs.

it's now a rapidly growing global provider

of teas and supplements around the world with the

aim to reconnect people to

the power of organic plants so as to lead

healthier and happier lives. However, you've also been a

practitioner of long standing. And

notwithstanding all the work with Pukka, you've moved on

to create the Herbal alliance,

to bring together the practitioner

associations, and help them to find

their common voice. And of course,

this herbal Reality, another voice for herbal

medicine, where we want to bring

the power and the wonder of herbs, and plants to

the wider world. So, you

know, we all have dreams, we all

have wonderful things we would like to do. I

think most of us would be very impressed by how you've managed to

convert some of those dreams into realities in the

way that you have. So the obvious

question I have is, what

inspires you? What drives you on? Where was

this love of herbs, coming from?

Can you tell us more about

where this passion began?

>> Sebastian: Thanks, Simon, and great to be having a chance

to chat with you. Of course, we've known each other for many

years already, so it's really nice to have a chance to talk about some other things

that we normally do. I mean, ultimately it has to come

from a love of nature and a love

of people, really. You know, there wasn't a

sudden sort of Road to Damascus moment where

I was awoken with a desire to

work as a herbalist and in

healing and in bringing people and plants together.

But it was a step by step

journey of different experiences along the way. Some

of them to do with, me getting ill

and not being able to sort myself

out.

>> Simon: was this a long time back in it? was this India

that I had here?

>> Sebastian: Yeah, probably, sort of acute things in India that

you could quickly treat with some herbs. You know, the Ubiquitous

deli belly. And I once had an

upset tummy. I didn't really know what to do.

I met an Ayurvedic doctor and he gave me some, you know,

very simple herbs of, It was a licorice,

Amla and Shatavari. That's slightly

surprisingly. But we can talk about that detail a bit later.

And, you know, so experiencing the simple

benefits of some herbs, also getting

interested in cooking and

noticing how when I ate different foods, how it made me feel

differently. I also developed

psoriasis when I was much younger and was exposed

to the conventional medical system, if you like, in a very

direct way, very helpful. Lots of dermatologists

were, It was a real eye opener to

me of the difference between sort of suppression

of a pathology or the internal,

milieu, if you like, the internal environment that you're

expressing.

>> Simon: And was this when you were very young?

>> Sebastian: I mean, as a teenager, I got that, actually.

Yeah. Young teenager. And then not being able to be cured,

as, you know, there isn't necessarily a cure with conventional medicine.

And just being interested in what I could do

to help. And,

you know, it was a time in my life when I. I didn't really

know what I wanted to do, but I got more

and more interested in how, as I was

saying, and how our diet affects our health,

how our exercise, and our lifestyle

affects our health. And as I started to discover

Ayurveda and traditional herbalism,

I was astounded, Simon, that I didn't

know these things. I'd had a very fortunate education. I've

got, you know, lots of exposure through different family

members to all sorts of things in life. I literally didn't know

anything about natural medicine. And I just couldn't believe

that I'd ended up in this position as a young man

without really knowing how to look after myself. And I.

And as I went on the journey of studying yoga,

getting more exposed to

my senses and feelings and noticing

how refinement of my senses

enhanced my experience of life.

I then dove into the principles of

Ayurveda, I suppose, was my first love, if you like, in

herbalism, and started to

realise that there's another language for describing our health and there's

another way of feeling, to a limited

degree, but empowered about what we can do to look after our

health. So it was a combination of some direct

suffering, some personal experience of

getting better, but also meeting some

inspiring teachers along the way that have really,

you know, guided my

direction. And then as soon as I started

doing some simple self care and, starting

to help a few people around me.

I think that saw some dramatic recoveries in people.

When I was, I was travelling in India. It'd be in a village, you know, one or

two days walk from the nearest road. There'd be no hospital.

You know, this is 30 or so years ago. You know, there's

very little medicines around there. and some

simple poultices I've made for people

with bad infections and,

you know, poultice of like neem leaf and

turmeric and garlic. You know, things that were at hand that you could pull out,

if not out of your kitchen cupboard, out of your local

garden, seeing dramatic improvements.

>> Simon: So already, you're already being a

practitioner even at that point?

>> Sebastian: Well, this is probably a few years on, from when I started

experimenting on myself, you could say, or using herbs

myself or seeing clinicians to treat myself. Maybe that

was sort of three or four years afterwards. Yeah, in sort of

desperandum, really. It was only because there was nothing

else there. I wouldn't normally have done that, but just you

start to see benefits in other people. And I was like, well, look, this is

if, if it's this powerful with my limited knowledge,

what could happen if I studied these amazing ancient

systems and learned how to

share and use some of those insights? And so, yeah,

I had this sort of realisation. It was

a coalescing of my previous experiences

where I was like, yeah, I'd love to spend my life committed and

dedicated to helping

connect people and plants and their health.

>> Simon: To step back a little from that. I mean, most people's

exposure to Ayurvedic and Indian influences is

through yoga and through that sort of, entry

point. Did you have that start or, was there a

switch through to herbs, from that, or did

you go into herbs first and, hit the Ayurveda button

later?

>> Sebastian: They ran pretty concurrently because I spent some

time living with some of

the Sadhu's holy men in India, really.

And the parallel of yoga and

Ayurveda self care, they, they

run, they run together, really. And within yoga there

is a great tradition of internal cleansing and

rejuvenation and dietary advice as well. So

that it was pretty much in, in

parallel. And,

you know, I think it was an awakening to the

wonder of nature as well, largely. Simon. You know, there was

this opening as a young man out of my education in

a way, and I hadn't had any formative

spiritual experiences, if you want to put it like that.

I'm not claiming Anything magnificent either. But they're

just an awareness of this, you're a part of this

greater vitality. And

I got very interested in this relationship

between the vitality that I saw in nature and the

articulation of that in Ayurveda. So starting to understand

some of the energetics and that. And that just really appealed to me. You

know, I'm no, I'm no bio

physicist or you know, biochemist in that

sense.

>> Simon: So this was your first exposure to health questions

was through this experience or these

experiences?

>> Sebastian: It was really before that, you know, it always been

my.

>> Simon: You'd been a victim?

>> Sebastian: Yes, I've been

taken down to the, the doctor in a way.

So and it was great. And you know, people

were obviously doctors, obviously showing all their care and compassion to look after

me as best they could. But it was a disempowered situation. I mean it

wasn't that I was being educated to go, oh,

if you feel hot, do this or you feel pain here,

do that. It wasn't sort of

instilled and it was

a, you know, it was a much more sort of top down approach which

obviously we know is needed sometimes in medical care

and all education, in all care, particularly with

children, they sometimes need to have that top down care.

But I found the approach of Ayurveda,

just very,

just very clear, very

engaging and just very

informative really. And I just thought this is common sense and

you know, I can learn this and then I could share a bit of it.

>> Simon: Well you did, you did go and learn because

it's hard work digging to

learn the materia medica, the

actions of the plants. And from your book

Ayurvedic Medicine, it looks as though you've absorbed or at

least written down, quite a lot of material.

So you must have taken quite a lot of time out simply

studying.

>> Sebastian: Yes, well another part of the story is that when I went

to university I studied Hindi and Indian

religion. So in this

formative time, if you like, when I'm exploring India

and yoga and culture there, I also studied Hindi

and that although I don't know Sanskrit

particularly well, that enabled me to access lots of

the text and at least to recognise the names of the

herbs. And so I found that when I was

studying Ayurveda there wasn't a particularly

easy way of accessing lots of knowledge about the plants. It sort

of scattered throughout the texts and

under various translations.

>> Simon: The impression I've had in looking at myself is

a lot of it was sort of adulterated

or polluted by the, presumably by the Raj,

you know, the, the English influence on the

original cultures. And so you must have had quite

hard work finding sources of the information

rather than those that have been caricatured in one way or

another to make it agreeable to an English

speaking audience.

>> Sebastian: Yeah, well, there are quite a few, translations of

important texts, like Madhavinidana,

Peshaja, Ratnavoli. There are these sort of important

texts that summarise, some of the earlier

Ayurvedic texts, Charaka, Sushruta. So I did

rely quite heavily on those. But I'm, you

know, I'm a real, I'm a really

eclectic. I've got such an eclectic background in

herbalism. The skill I've got is drawing lots of

information together. You know, I don't have a

particularly strong expertise in one

area but I'm, I'm quite, that's something I enjoy

doing that sort of research work to amalgamate and

draw, draw information together. And so because,

in my herbal studies I

studied my. The first herbal course I really

did more formally outside

India was with Tiaras Mike and Leslie Tierra

and their, their work on planetary herbology. And so, you know, that gave

me quite a big background into Western

herbalism and a dabbling in Chinese herbal medicine.

And so it gave me this approach

to writing that book on Ayurvedic medicine, that I could

draw together a way of

presenting a monograph that was perhaps

more sort of cohesive than you might

find in an I've edit text where there's this very

specific sort of Ayurvedic approach.

>> Simon: And when you were, when you were looking at these

different herbal traditions, did you find common

ground? Did you see, did you recognise

similar approaches?

>> Sebastian: I mean that was one of the brilliant things. You're like, oh, everyone

uses licorice around the world and it are. Well, it's called

the same. If you translate the Latin or you translate the Sanskrit or

you translate the Chinese, it all means sweet root. And you know, it's

fairly obvious in a way. But you find these

anthropological and ethnobotanical links across

the world, which I know the evidence base for herbalism is

maybe we'll get onto that at some point. You know, it's potentially questioned.

But if you look around the world and you see how plants are used

in a similar way in different traditions, you recognise

that even though there may not have been direct

communication, there is a, there is a knowledge about how those plants

work. I Mean, there's so many examples.

Dandelion, fennel,

mint. You know, there are lots of plants, motherwort, that are used in all

traditions around the world, or many of them in a similar way.

So.

>> Simon: And when you, and when you get to those common

insights, don't you get a sense that

that is getting close to the heart of the

matter? That's where the power of the plants

really comes through. Because

they manifested themselves in the same way

to many different cultures.

>> Sebastian: Yes. It's like they've got a, a

character, a personality, and

that manifests, you know,

around the world in the same way, in a way, you know, different cultures

observed how to use the plants in the same way. And I, I think

that really gets down to the, the

heart of how plants work in us, really,

and, and how we can take advantage of

their evolutionary protection and

their evolutionary adaptive

skills. We can take advantage of that for

boosting our own health in a, in a very accessible and

a very sustainable way. And that's, that's something that

really touched me along the journey as I started

to see that, you know, I think there are, there are

matera medica in China, where

in 1000 AD 50% of the herbs are

from India. You know, so there's this great cultural exchange

going on and the other ways as well. Of course, many herbs in

China are entering Ayurveda and then coming into,

you know, through the Avicenna and the

tradition in, North Africa, coming into

Europe, basically. So there's this great crossover of

knowledge. And I, I see the, you know,

on a macro level, I don't see any difference between the

traditions of medicine around the world. I see it as

humanity's answer to relieving suffering in our

fellow friends and, family and citizens.

And I think they've just taken a slightly different

approach.

>> Simon: It's something that I, I share with you. I think

that, that there is a common

herbal, experience that in

different ways we share, but it's the antidote to the view that

herbs are all, you know, fragmented and this,

that and the other and what people think they are and, you know, that there's

no substance to them. I think what you're talking about does

sound like substance to me.

>> Sebastian: Yeah, I mean, there's a historical continuum, isn't there, of

usage of some plants in the same way for

some documented hundreds, if not thousands of

years in some cases. And

you can see that now as you get plants

like, you know, ashwagandha or ginseng, which may

have perhaps been more localised originally in their usage,

but you can see there that their benefits are

appreciated around the world as they become globally popular.

So I think there's a sort of two way street to

it.

>> Simon: So let's pick up the story. You've got

your passions now, you've been doing your

homework and building up your experience

and knowledge. When was the book put together?

Over what sort of period of time, particularly in relation to the

Pukka story? I think it came out soon after Pucker

was founded, wasn't it?

>> Sebastian: Yeah, I'd been

to be set Pucker up in 2001,

August of 2001, and

for a few years before that I've

been working on an organic farm, growing herbs in the UK

and, and studying to be a herbalist, through

this, planetary herbology course.

And during that time, you know,

IEDA was always my, my first love, as I was

saying. And so I was always carrying

on some research in the background. So it was a work of about five or

six years. And as I was starting

Pukka, the first couple of years before we

actually formed the company, you know, was trying to find

the plants. Of course we didn't have anything to sell yet,

so I was spending time travelling around India

trying to find some growers, quite honestly that

could grow to the standards we wanted. And in

that time I, I would be, be

doing lots of research and writing.

>> Simon: So the formation of Pukka with Tim,

you'll learn about the advertisement and the paper and so on.

And But were you already planning that before you

met Tim? I mean, were you really beginning to look for

plants that you could bring into the country? Or was,

was it the Tim meeting?

>> Sebastian: No, it was actually prior to that

because I couldn't get good

Ayurvedic herbs in my practise that I wanted to have.

And so I actually went out to India and

looked for some Ashwagandha growers and things like that,

you know, Triphala, etc. And started to bring some herbs

back and sold, you know, 25 kilos here or

50 kilos here. But you know, it wasn't done with the great

traceability and the whole organic and

the whole lineage that we've set up with Pukka. So

there was, I had some experience in growing herbs before

of course, and but then when we

were focused on what we were going to do with bringing

more, more herbs in for teas and supplements and making it more

available, that's when we went out and found more organic and

fair trade growers that way.

>> Simon: So where did the organic come in?

You said at the beginning it wasn't the first thing, but

when, when did you cleave to organic as part

of the story?

>> Sebastian: I mean that's, you know, a

significant part of my journey because of how

it really relates to health

and the land and the ecosystem and that we're

an extension of the whole ecosystem and that I was really,

I got really inspired by someone called Mike Brook,

who set up originally, a business called

Hamilton Herbs that's now the organic Herb Trading Company.

And I actually, when I'd gone out from

India and I was starting to study this herbal

course, I wanted to also, you know, I was

25 or so, so I needed a job as well

and I, wanted to work on the land with

plants. I didn't want to just be in college. And so I, I

rang up out of the yellow pages actually,

which is the directory, you know, in the old days for

finding where someone's number was. And I rang Mike up and

said, and have you got any work? And he had a

woofing scheme, this welcome workers on or,

organic farm scheme. And

he gave me a job. I went down and on, 35

quid a week or whatever it was. I lived in a caravan

on the land. And you know,

Mike is one of the pioneers of organic herbs in

the world, was the first person to bring in organic herbs into the uk,

set up whole value chains and they still are, leaders

in the ethical supply of herbs today.

And it was very formative time in my life. So I

was. The land hadn't been turned over yet, they had just moved there.

They had a, I don't know, 20 odd acres, but they had just had a 2 acre

plot for growing various herbs. So I was one of the

gardeners turning over the land, making the beds, learning how

to, you know, divide roots of skull

cap and plant echinacea seeds and all of that says

that was very educational. And they had a warehouse as well. So I was learning.

I got to see, I don't know, they had about 300 species of

herbs I think. So I got to see all the raw materials and what they would actually

look like. So that was also part of my sort of early

pharmacogny, if you like, in my study of the, of

the sort of drug form of plants.

>> Simon: I can see a podcast with Mike coming along because, I

mean that would be another story, wouldn't it, as to how he got to

that place.

>> Sebastian: Great to speak to. Yes. And you know he was

already committed to the organic movement and that

sort of. I joined the, joined the train really.

And I think there's a very important paradigm

comparison here with modern medicine. And

should we call it traditional herbal medicine and modern

farming and should we call it traditional organic

farming? In, in the sense of how

herbalism and organic farming really focus on, you know,

nurturing the whole system, there is that belief of,

or view of prevention and

supporting the

ecology, the microbiome,

of the soil as well as the digestive system, if you like. And I

think there's this powerful paradigm analogy there

that we, we want to work with

more than against. So I think there's a,

there's a possibility of exploring how

herbalism and organic farming can become a greater part

of society's paradigm for how we care for our health.

Of course, modern medicine, modern agriculture have grown out of many

needs to alleviate suffering, alleviate hunger, and

there are many advantages and expertise there.

But we, we know that modern farming is

causing a major, you know, is a major contributor to

biodiversity loss and deforestation.

And also we think that there may

be implications on the microbiome from pesticides etc.

And so I, you know, I got very inspired by

the organic view of it being a

circular approach. You know, you, you put

back in what you take out,

you, you mitigate risk early on, you look

for prevention and diversity in your whole ecosystem.

And I, I've taken those principles into my clinical practise. I

mean, you know, for me, how

herbalism works is just an extension of

how nature works. And so having the

privilege of that being a

lifelong focus and meditation, if you like, is something that

I will always cherish. So

that's how I got into organic.

>> Simon: And privileged to have joined the pukka team in

the last five years and can confirm that

those, that notion of the three biomes, you

know, where we support all these living systems

equally still is the core

passion, the core theme in the pukka

thinking. And so, come back to what I was saying

earlier. You know, unlike many of us, you have a

dream or dreams and then see it through.

And I'm just wondering what, the

demands of getting pucker up and running

to see those original ideas,

manifested what they did to your energies and

your core loves of herbs. How, how

did the reality of pukka

work for you?

>> Sebastian: I mean, it's just been so educational, Simon. You know,

it's been so formative and the whole herbal

industry is so collaborative and

yeah, it's been, it's been eye Opening though as well, of

course, because you see that the scale that it's

at, the impact that the herbal

harvesting has on the wild, some of the

disparities in, in wages and standards and

quality. So, so it's been, been truly eye

opening in that sense. You know, we, we really

had a drive to quality. I suppose it was that, that insight

that herbalism and health

aspires to really. And

maybe, maybe it came from my interest in yoga and that there

was a sort of possibility of human evolution and you could, you

could enhance your potential in a way.

But I, I just felt there was a

strong need for the tradition to be respected

and I didn't think what was on the

shelves was doing that. I know that might sound a bit

arrogant and I don't mean to be arrogant. I know lots of people would trying to do

good things. But you know, back at

the, in the 1990s, you know,

all the herbal tea on the shelf was perhaps not

high grade, it was just normal food grade herbs,

you know. You know, 99% of it wouldn't have been

organic, you know, so we were,

we were early adopters in a way of that push

to try and

raise the profile of quality in herbalism that you know, there'd

been the renaissance, should we say, coming out of the 60s and 70s

and many of the colleagues,

inspiring colleagues, particularly out of America and

the UK had really sort of given

rebirth I think to the herbal practise. But I

think the quality of the herbal side was lagging behind at that

point and that really needed a push.

And with pucker, I wanted to make sure that

whatever we served to anybody was something that I'd want to

have myself and I'd want my family or my, or my patients

to have. And so that was a very big

journey for me looking at quality standards and really understanding

how there is a difference in food

grade herbs or pharmacopeel grade herbs or practitioner

grade herbs. You know, there are ranges of everything

and it really showed me

how the deeper your relationship with

the source of things, the

greater the reward is in a

way because you have build up this relationship with

people. They, they understand your needs,

you can understand their needs

and if you're lucky, you become

friends. You certainly get some journeys, you know, some

adventures that you, you, you've shared together.

So, you know, that's put us in incredibly good stead

where we really got this, you know,

global network of suppliers,

farmers that are part of our value chain now.

So that will, that organic growing side has been really

Valuable. But, you know, as you know,

most of the herbs in the world by species, come out of the

wild, Simon, and about 25%

by volume. So millions and millions of kilos come out of the wild.

And one of the things that's been inspiring for me at

Pucker is that ability for us to grow and stretch

ourselves as the whole industry grows and stretches. And it's

been one of the great honours in my life to

contribute to the Fair Wild movement. And

Fairwild is a standard that was set, up through

a collaboration across various, NGOs such

as, Traffic and WWF,

and is a standard that looks at how you

can get herbs out of the wild sustainably, where the

collectors and, the landowners, the community owners of

the land also get paid. And it's a very equitable

way of ensuring quality and

social fairness. And I'm

just so pleased that we can contribute to

this scheme because it is a way

of ensuring that however big herbalism

becomes, which is we need it to be a lot bigger,

to serve human health more effectively, that

in that process we are also looking

after the land, the nature, the ecosystems,

the plants come from. So we've had all sorts of fun

travelling around projects to harvest

licorice and climbing up trees to get lime

flower and elderberries and stinging

ourselves wild, harvesting nettles.

So, you know, there are

large numbers of people. I don't actually know what it is, but it will be,

you know, some millions of people that are involved

in wild harvesting herbs from the wild and depend

on it for a large percentage of their income. And I

think it's incumbent on the whole industry, whether you're,

you know, a user, a practitioner or a

producer to make sure you know where your

plants come from. At least do your best to work with those

cultures to sort of, yeah, impart

quality standards and learn from them what they

need as a society.

>> Simon: Yes, you answered my next question, which is, you know, the price

of success. You know, if we are going where we

want to, which is where herbs become, you know,

a default again, then there are, pressures

on the supply, on the environment that produces

the herbs and on protecting the communities that produce

them. And again, with Impaka,

we've clearly, seen that

steps, can be taken there with the Fairwild and the other

certification systems, and with other

things like 1% of the planet. And taking

responsibility for success, I think is

something that Pukka has also taught us. And there

are many other people in Pukka now helping to carry

the torch. So. But it was your original,

your original dreams which fired us,

to do this. So m. You must have had. And

presumably in dark moments in the night when you worry about the

impact of your next order on the particular crop

or a particular supply,

there must be quite a big

agenda here that we as herbalists need to take

on and which have not been taken on so much I think in the

past that through, pukka you have

addressed.

>> Sebastian: Yes, I think there is a. You know, across the world really,

the herbal practitioner community

has become unfortunately

fragmented because it has been, not

always included in or integrated in

medical systems. And so naturally herbalists have

been sort of segmented if you like, or pushed to

the edge or marginalised. And I think that's made it difficult

for us to align and come together over such things as

quality standards, you know, fair trade standards.

and I

feel extremely optimistic

given the nature and you know, health

crisis we're in at the minute, that herbal

practitioners are coming together around the world to

address some of these matters in a way

you could set up to industry and suppliers to, to do

that work. But I also think it's incumbent

on the customer in a way to

demand the standards they want as well.

And you know, you mentioned at the beginning the

Herbal alliance has been this group

of, us, coming together to bring the different UK

organisations together. And yeah,

it's been really quite moving actually having a chance

to meet so many people who've dedicated their lives

to natural medicine and

helping members of their society's health

thrive. So many amazing people

and to feel this potential

of what could come out of an

alignment really of thinking. Because of course there are, you know,

within all groups of people there is diversity of thinking and there are

different cultural approaches in Chinese medicine, Ayurveda,

Western, Western herbalism.

So I feel

that there is an urgent need for

herbal communities around the world, America, Australia,

everywhere, to address the climate

crisis. And I think we need to be

addressing the biodiversity

issues. We need to be ultimately,

from a selfish point of view, you know, the

climate crisis is going to affect and impact the

quality of herbs and their availability. And we need

to be on the front foot of addressing

that supply for the future because,

you know, growing regions are changing.

Huge, pressure on, as I've already mentioned, on wild

populations and the only way to ensure

that we have a reliable future that we can

be proud of is to engage with

where each and every species we're using

in our clinic is coming from. And that might m. Be difficult to

find out immediately, but the way to start is to do

it. And I've got that experience from

Pucker because I know that we didn't know where every single herb

came from when we when we started,

but we certainly do,

now in that sense. You know, we track that down over time

and we work with people to create that

lineage, if you like.

>> Simon: So you're really calling out to all those who want

to pursue a herbal path that it's not just a question of

finding the right herb to give to your patient, it's a question

of how you bed that

in with your responsibilities and your

appreciation of the wider world

need, the, the need to be sustainable,

preferably organic.

>> Sebastian: I do, Simon, I think it's the same

for every single thing we buy actually. But

in this context, as a

herbal practitioner or user of

herbs, you have a choice and you can choose

where you buy things from and, and you can drive

that change in the marketplace through your,

you know, the pound is a powerful political

tool and I think that's how it should be used really.

If you can use, you know, if that's possible to use it that

way. And we've got a lot

to do, let's face it, you know, we can't just sit on our laurels.

It's lovely that pukka's all organic and that there's some nice

organic tea here and there, you know, there's a

lot to be done and I don't think any of us can sit

back on our, on our laurels to suggest any

other way.

>> Simon: Certainly no one can accuse you of sitting on your laurel.

What lessons have we learned? What perhaps

might. Could we have done better or would we

do better if we had it again? What are the things

we need to really focus on, work

wise as a community, in the next

five or 10 years? Where would you apply the lessons

to what we do next?

>> Sebastian: I mean hindsight's a great thing to have, isn't it? And we do

have it. So looking

back over history and perhaps how herbalism's got

marginalised under the pressure of a more sort of

pharmaceutical diagnostic based

medicine. alignment

I'd say is the first thing, you know, stick together, that we

share more than we differ on

basically, and so find alignment that way.

Focus on practitioner standards and

clinical standards, although they are very high already, I'd

say through all the individual colleges that accredit and

train, find more

universal alignment again there.

Drive awareness of quality in

practise a bit more as in the Ingredients and

the products. I think that would be a, great enhancement. And

so perhaps there's a greater need to train in

more, pharmacogeny and herbal science in

that sense, that sort of identification and those quality

issues. And

I think we need to find a

way to help people feel more empowered. Ultimately, you know, the

ultimate gift of herbalism is that

it uses, you know, natural

tendencies that are very accessible to people.

So how can we capitalise

on our, you know, the innate

tendency of herbalists to be teachers? You know, spending

an hour with a client is really

about, exploring their

life story and their life story in terms of

their, you know, what has led to good

health with them and what has led to poor health. So, you know, what are

the, what are the resistors to their progress and what

are the accelerators of it? And you, you explore that

through, you know, really very personal and, you know,

intimate conversation. Whether you're taking pulses

or taking tongues or whatever it

might be, you are, in a very personal conversation.

>> Simon: So it's a sort of. We're in the business of

empowerment, aren't we? So it

isn't part of what we need to do to

promulgate that message, that if you

want to take charge of your health, there are

ways that have been adopted for

millennia, there are remedies which have

been used for millennia and the same.

So what, how do we, how do we get that

message? How do we articulate? How do we, you know, apart

from spending squadillions on

campaigns, is there a way we

can pick up the

message?

>> Sebastian: I think it is, you know, as in all aspects

of change, it's quite nuanced and it's multi

dimensional. And so I think, you know, I'm a big believer

in, you know, looking at where are the blockages? It's like a

herbal diagnosis, you know, look at where the, you

know, where are the fundamental problems that we've got?

Where is the lack of trust, lack of

belief? where do we need to meet the

current medical paradigm? For example? You know, where is the

more evidence needed from us? Where is the more safety

guidance? You know, what are the concerns of medical

regulators? But, you know, how can we tell a better

story about our efficacy as well? How can we really,

engage in this, you know, it is naturally complex.

Herbalism, you know, is representing all of nature.

It is not something that can be done in an elevator pitch.

It is a, it is a detailed approach

to the wonderful dynamic of health.

And so how can we do a better job as a

herbal community of telling that story through the media,

through our clients and,

and how can we really bring about that change that we

want? You know, that, that's really, that's really

pushing, pushing at the door if you like. You know, there

is a, you could say that it's, you know,

there is a, there is a powerful current medical paradigm, isn't there,

that is based on more on you know,

acute treatment and diagnostics rather than a

personalised preventative approach. You

know, both are needed. you know,

I think we need to work to a more integrated plan

in the future where

herbalism, counselling,

diet, exercise are all included.

And not just because I am a herbalist

and I love the principles and

practise of herbalism. But herbalism really does include all those

pieces. Herbalists are nutritionists,

herbalists are coaches, and counsellors.

Herbalists are lifestyle

guides and they are

exercise therapists. And on top of that they

know the,

the some of the most powerful plants in nature

and how to combine them to help you optimise your health.

So really is that good? You know, it really is that

good.

>> Simon: It takes us all the way back to the original

Ayurvedic principles, isn't it? That, you know,

it's, there isn't just one path,

there's a, one therapy, there isn't one way to

health. and in a sense what I hearing

you say is, is that for the herbal

world to prosper and progress,

we should be linking ourselves to

those who work in exercise in nature.

You know, there's a lot of work on how important green

spaces are and blue walks and all the rest of it.

That seems to be a world that you're suggesting we should

all attach to and become

part of. So it's a bigger integration.

You know, first we integrate and find the

voice for the herbal world. But it sounds that what you're saying is

that, you know, there is a bigger calling where

we, we, we look over

our parapet and see what other people are doing in that

wider, nature based healing.

>> Sebastian: Absolutely. I, I love that you're so right. It really

is about partnerships,

networks. You know, we've reached that time in history where it's all

about a mycelial relationship in a way

where through working together

we can empower and

educate and engage. And I

couldn't agree with you more that we need to do a bit

of navel gazing to reflect on where we've got to. But

don't spend too long doing that. We need to get out

there and share the wonder that is

herbalism and stand up with confidence

and with clarity and with compassion, really,

that there is a lot of care that can be delivered

through herbalism in a sustainable and

an affordable and a practical way.

>> Simon: Well, Sebastian, as we said at the beginning, you

have translated many of these ideas into reality and

have provided us, with a great lesson in life and

going forward and an inspiration to what we might do.

So thank you so much for sharing this time with

us and your thoughts in this podcast, and

we'll look forward to hearing more. Thank you very

much.

>> Sebastian: Thank you, Simon M. Great to be with you.

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