Speaker1:

We are looking forward our way from Studio C in the 511 Studios located in the Brewery

Speaker1:

District in downtown Columbus.

Speaker1:

This is Brett and with me, as always, is Carol.

Speaker2:

You know, today's topic is very close to my heart.

Speaker2:

We have always talked about lifelong learning and the power of learning and an individual

Speaker2:

success in the workplace.

Speaker2:

So I'm pretty excited with where we're going today.

Speaker1:

Yeah, and now it's my turn to bring in my alma mater because you got yours earlier with

Speaker1:

our pandemic in the art series.

Speaker1:

So today's guest is from Miami University in Oxford, Ohio.

Speaker1:

I'm a graduate 88.

Speaker1:

Welcome at Dr. Phyllis Cummins, senior research scholar from Miami's Scripps Gerontology

Speaker1:

Center. Dr. Cummins, thank you so much for joining us today.

Speaker1:

I mean, I'm glad we got to make this happen in studio.

Speaker3:

I agree. I think it's a much better setting and it's nice to be face to face people after

Speaker3:

after the year we've been through.

Speaker2:

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker2:

Absolutely. We haven't seen Phyllis for a while.

Speaker2:

She has been a supporter with Brittny of of our previous agency.

Speaker2:

And so we're glad to see you again today.

Speaker2:

So as I mentioned, though, the discussion revolves around job seekers and their success

Speaker2:

in the workplace. How do you find a new opportunity?

Speaker2:

Move up the ladder, change your career field?

Speaker2:

What kinds of things do you have to do as a as a job seeker?

Speaker2:

But employers are also telling us that they can't find qualified workers.

Speaker2:

So today, Phyllis is going to help us dive into the issues and the barriers that she has

Speaker2:

researched and any successful trends she's seen.

Speaker1:

All right. Well, let's give our listeners an overview of your background first, though.

Speaker1:

So it kind of sets the stage you started in business and then an MBA from University of

Speaker1:

Northern Florida moved into human resources at Florida Gulf Coast, then into gerontology

Speaker1:

with your doctoral program at Miami, including a postdoctoral program with Scripps

Speaker1:

Center. Tell us more about that journey.

Speaker1:

You move from real estate investing to research in gerontology.

Speaker1:

That's that's a huge leap.

Speaker3:

It is a big leap.

Speaker3:

I like to tell people it took me 40 years to get my Ph.D.

Speaker3:

because I got my undergrad, my bachelors at Ohio State in 1973.

Speaker3:

And then I completed my Ph.D.

Speaker3:

in social gerontology at Miami University in 2013.

Speaker3:

So for 40 year gap, a

Speaker2:

Lot of research.

Speaker3:

And so my my major at Ohio State was in real estate and marketing in what was then the

Speaker3:

College of Administrative Science.

Speaker3:

And now it's the Fisher College of Business.

Speaker3:

And I worked for Prudential Financial for many years in the real estate investment

Speaker3:

department. The first job I had with Prudential was in Jacksonville, Florida.

Speaker3:

And while I was working there, I went to University of North Florida at night and got my

Speaker3:

MBA. I moved around a bit with Prudential.

Speaker3:

I worked in there, Jacksonville, Florida office, then Cleveland and Cincinnati.

Speaker3:

But I spent most of my career at in their corporate office at Newark in Newark, New

Speaker3:

Jersey. I took early retirement at age 48.

Speaker3:

My husband and I moved to Florida.

Speaker3:

We build a home on an Enbridge island.

Speaker3:

And we were there during the 2004 and 2005 hurricane season.

Speaker3:

And those are our house on this unabridged island, which was built new, but it was

Speaker3:

damaged such that it needed quite a bit of repairs.

Speaker3:

And we did live in it again.

Speaker3:

After that, I got bored.

Speaker3:

So I decided to go to Florida Gulf Coast University and I completed a second bachelor's

Speaker3:

in human performance, which is like exercise science, and they have a master's program in

Speaker3:

gerontology. And while I was getting the bachelors in human performance, we had a couple

Speaker3:

of clinical and I found that I enjoyed working with older adults with their exercise

Speaker3:

program. So that attracted me to gerontology.

Speaker3:

And I did my master's in gerontology.

Speaker3:

And by the time we finished that, we got tired of preparing for hurricanes.

Speaker3:

And I thought, I'm from Ohio and I convinced my husband to move back here, which didn't

Speaker3:

take much convincing after I took him to one Ohio State football game.

Speaker2:

There you go.

Speaker3:

So anyway, so we moved back to Ohio full time, I guess it would have been in 2008.

Speaker3:

And I was investigating doctoral programs.

Speaker3:

I never in my wildest dreams thought that I would complete a PhD program.

Speaker3:

I was finish. It's always sounded quite intimidating, but I applied at Miami University

Speaker3:

to their doctoral program and was accepted and I completed my PhD in 2013.

Speaker3:

My my dissertation research was about older workers and job training programs for older

Speaker3:

workers, because at the time I started the program, it was the great.

Speaker3:

Recession was just winding down and I had a great awareness of some of the struggles that

Speaker3:

older workers were facing, so I used data from the Workforce Investment Act.

Speaker3:

We had data which has since been replaced by the Workforce Investment Opportunity Act.

Speaker3:

We owe to look at outcomes for older adults who participated.

Speaker3:

And we have programs. And then I also looked at community college programs that focused

Speaker3:

on older workers.

Speaker3:

I met Carol when I was doing some work for the Ohio Department of Aging on their senior

Speaker3:

community service employment program.

Speaker3:

Cesar and Mark Malai introduced us, I believe.

Speaker3:

Yes, and that work led to some applications for some grants from the Institution of

Speaker3:

Education Sciences, which is the U.S.

Speaker3:

Department of Education.

Speaker3:

And I've been successful in being a part of four rather large grants with with.

Speaker3:

Ah, yes. And they the first one focused on adults ages 40 and older, enrolled in Ohio's

Speaker3:

community colleges.

Speaker3:

And they're my projects are all mixed methods.

Speaker3:

We use data from the Ohio Longitudinal Data Archive to look at both educational and

Speaker3:

employment outcomes for older adults.

Speaker3:

And then from a qualitative perspective, we had three case study community colleges where

Speaker3:

we had focus groups of older students to really understand what barriers they face, what

Speaker3:

their goals are, what why they go back to school, how are they different from younger

Speaker3:

students? And we talk to administrative staff and chief academic officer.

Speaker3:

So that was the first grant and we used with another collaborator.

Speaker3:

We used data from the program for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies,

Speaker3:

which is Piak.

Speaker3:

It's an international survey of adult skills.

Speaker3:

Data were collected in the U.S.

Speaker3:

in 2011 and 12 and then again in 2014.

Speaker3:

And the skills assessment measure literacy, numeracy and problem solving skills in a

Speaker3:

technology rich environment.

Speaker3:

And that one also was mixed methods.

Speaker3:

And we did interviews with people in multiple countries, including several European

Speaker3:

countries, to really understand what are their policies and programs to support adult

Speaker3:

learning. How can that inform what we do in the U.S.?

Speaker3:

And then a current project I'm involved in, similar to the community college project in

Speaker3:

Ohio, but is to look at Ohio technical centers and there are roughly 50 of those in Ohio

Speaker3:

and they award certificates and diplomas.

Speaker3:

They're not associate's degrees.

Speaker3:

They're lower than that.

Speaker3:

But they most of the students that are enrolled, there are adult students ages 25 and

Speaker3:

older,

Speaker1:

I thought was interesting.

Speaker1:

Key that you an age that you said in there about 40 and above.

Speaker1:

Mm hmm. I think people are under the misconception that this is just 65, 70 year old

Speaker1:

people are talking about it. I know it's all the way down to.

Speaker1:

Right. 40S.

Speaker1:

Yeah, really. Focus on it.

Speaker1:

Start start the focus.

Speaker3:

Now, part of the reason we selected Age Forty was that's the age for age discrimination.

Speaker3:

And just from a from the concept of what could what could we get approved for funding, we

Speaker3:

really needed to include an age group that would be attractive to funders here.

Speaker3:

And it's really about age 40 is when people start thinking about, well, are they going to

Speaker3:

have to change careers and make those decisions?

Speaker2:

Right. But I think, too, that employers recognize that there are changes in individuals

Speaker2:

perception of work and their decisions on where they want to go, what there may be a

Speaker2:

change in their career path.

Speaker2:

I mean, I think forty is a pivotal year and people don't realize that.

Speaker2:

And I have to say, when Phyllis and I first met, when the Department of Aging was doing a

Speaker2:

lot of work, they were really recognizing even at that point in time, because aging was

Speaker2:

normally working with folks 65 and over, and it was very much Medicare and health care

Speaker2:

issues. But they recognized that older workers were pivotal to our economy, that we could

Speaker2:

Ohio was not going to reach the the the levels it was looking for in economic development

Speaker2:

without including older workers.

Speaker2:

And I'm putting my little quotes up here in the air.

Speaker2:

And so they started looking at 50 and over.

Speaker2:

But as you said, I mean, the Discrimination Act on on look.

Speaker2:

Workers age 40 and over has been around for a while.

Speaker2:

We're changing the mindset of older workers that it's not just the retiree who wants to,

Speaker2:

you know, be the Wal-Mart greeter.

Speaker2:

That's not really what we're looking at.

Speaker3:

That's right. In one of the manuscripts we've been working on, one of my collaborators

Speaker3:

wrote the phrase, older workers need work and employers need older workers.

Speaker2:

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker3:

And that's so true in Ohio.

Speaker3:

But they may or may not have the skills that that employers are looking for.

Speaker2:

Right. You know, as I mentioned, Phyllis and I have gotten to know each other over many,

Speaker2:

many years of my working with older adults, looking for work.

Speaker2:

And I can't tell you and I can't thank the Scripps Center enough for all of the times I

Speaker2:

have got dived into their website, found what I needed and used it in the next grant

Speaker2:

report that I wrote.

Speaker2:

And and I did give them credit, but they they did the work for me.

Speaker2:

But I don't know.

Speaker2:

I mean, it's kind of a jewel under the bushel sort of thing.

Speaker2:

People don't know about Scripps.

Speaker2:

So tell us a little bit more about sort of the overall picture.

Speaker3:

Sure. And I suspect you are using the population Web site.

Speaker3:

Oh, yeah. And if you haven't looked lately, it looks very different.

Speaker3:

It's been totally updated.

Speaker3:

And there there are a lot more different sorts of data available, wonderful ones on the

Speaker3:

on the Web site. But Scripps is really one of the top centers for research on aging and

Speaker3:

education. We have the Department of Sociology and Gerontology has degree programs at the

Speaker3:

bachelor's, master's and PhD level.

Speaker3:

And there really only one of a handful of universities in the country that have offered

Speaker3:

all three degrees.

Speaker3:

Ohio, well, Scripps is especially well known for its Ohio long term care research

Speaker3:

project, which was established in response to the growing older population.

Speaker3:

And as I mentioned, the population website has recently been updated.

Speaker3:

I also wanted to mention of some recent work Scripps has been doing with AARP.

Speaker3:

They've been collaborating to develop an AARP nursing home, covid-19 DAT Dashboard, to

Speaker3:

provide four week snapshots of the virus infiltration in nursing homes.

Speaker3:

And it's received a lot of press.

Speaker3:

And now they're working on a project with AARP to to examine how covid is impacting

Speaker3:

nursing homes serving a high proportion of minority residents.

Speaker3:

It's not just Scripps research staff, but there's research fellows from various

Speaker3:

departments and colleges across the university that have an interest in aging issues.

Speaker3:

So we all work towards making a positive difference in the lives of aging individuals and

Speaker3:

their families.

Speaker2:

I think for our listeners, why?

Speaker2:

Why I think this is critical to hear more about what Scripps does is, number one, we need

Speaker2:

more young people to study the area because needless to say, our population is aging,

Speaker2:

particularly here in Ohio and to under to better understand what's going on with older

Speaker2:

adults, because as our friend Fran Ryan, who's going to be on another podcast with us,

Speaker2:

always says, what's good for older adults is also good for younger adults.

Speaker2:

The services that an older adult needs, chances are pretty good that that a younger adult

Speaker2:

is going to need it. So for our listeners, not only do you want to I want you to see

Speaker2:

Scripps is a great place to go.

Speaker2:

If you have a question, there's lots of information there.

Speaker2:

But it'll also see this as a stepping stone if you know some young folk who would like to

Speaker2:

do more and study more in gerontology.

Speaker3:

Yeah, and I think that it's being increasingly recognized that, say, someone is a business

Speaker3:

major and they're going to do financial planning.

Speaker3:

Chances are they're going to interact with individuals of all ages.

Speaker3:

So just understanding cognitive differences of us as we age and understand the issues

Speaker3:

that older adults might be facing from an employment perspective.

Speaker3:

Right. So I think that across the university, there's an increasing understanding of the

Speaker3:

importance of knowledge about aging.

Speaker3:

Right.

Speaker2:

And I think all those I.T.

Speaker2:

students who are writing apps need to know more about aging.

Speaker2:

So they write apps that we can see, right?

Speaker1:

Well well, the medical field is divided up and you can specialize in this.

Speaker1:

Why not other fields as well being financial or tech that it becomes?

Speaker1:

Yeah, think about this.

Speaker1:

That's that's that's actually a market to where the event sumers.

Speaker2:

And I think I think the pandemic showed that we not only are big consumers, we have we are

Speaker2:

perfectly capable of going on Amazon and ordering stuff.

Speaker3:

So lots of stuff.

Speaker2:

But I know I was breaking down boxes with.

Speaker2:

Get rid of recycling.

Speaker2:

Yeah, so yeah, so thank you.

Speaker2:

Thank you for that.

Speaker1:

Well, let's set the stage for our listeners.

Speaker1:

We had a very turbulent year with the pandemic.

Speaker1:

However, the economy was moving quickly and successfully before March of twenty twenty.

Speaker1:

And right now the expectations are that it will is going to pick back up again.

Speaker1:

Thank goodness. Now that vaccines are available, we, you know, have some positive

Speaker1:

momentum. Yet it's always been more difficult for older workers to enter the job market

Speaker1:

historically than compared to younger workers.

Speaker1:

Let's explore what was going on in early 2020 and why employers were stating they

Speaker1:

couldn't find qualified workers when so many older adults wanted to stay in the

Speaker1:

workplace.

Speaker3:

Well, I think there's several reasons.

Speaker3:

Ageism is always an issue, just the perception that older adults can't learn new things,

Speaker3:

that they will just start working and retire in a couple of years and the lack or

Speaker3:

unwillingness of some employers to make investments in job training for older workers.

Speaker3:

But another reason is that older adults may not have the skills that employers are

Speaker3:

looking for. I mentioned before problem solving skills and technology rich environments

Speaker3:

that includes critical thinking skills, problem solving skills, you know, figuring out

Speaker3:

how to to go from A to Z on a project, teamwork, all those sorts of skills are

Speaker3:

increasingly important for employers.

Speaker3:

And it's what they look for.

Speaker3:

And it may not be what what?

Speaker3:

Older adults, middle aged adults.

Speaker3:

Are accustomed to what they learned when they were in college.

Speaker3:

So that's part of the reason, I think one issue with middle aged and older workers and

Speaker3:

perhaps why they don't have the skills some employers are looking for is because they may

Speaker3:

have gotten out of high school or college 20 or 30 years ago and perhaps they haven't

Speaker3:

kept their skills up, perhaps technology skills.

Speaker3:

There's a concept of digital natives and digital immigrants.

Speaker3:

I'm a digital immigrant and there are very few jobs today that don't involve technology

Speaker3:

in some way, using a computer four to clock in your time or, you know, whatever.

Speaker3:

And I think that in the U.S., there really hasn't been this a concept about the

Speaker3:

importance of lifelong learning and a learning society where we continue to learn and are

Speaker3:

provided with opportunities to learn and build new skills.

Speaker3:

So I think that's part of the reason.

Speaker3:

Well, there

Speaker1:

Was that natural transition that employers stopped training their own right and it became

Speaker1:

a burden on you. Well, I shouldn't call it a burden, but it was a responsibility of the

Speaker1:

employee to continue that training on their own time

Speaker3:

And with their own money and their own

Speaker2:

Money. But they weren't changing their jobs.

Speaker2:

So I don't think people recognized the need to continue.

Speaker2:

Correct. And when we say training, we're really talking something much bigger than just

Speaker2:

how to make a widget or how to move a piece of paper from one desk to another.

Speaker2:

It was really like looking at looking forward, getting information at the ad that's

Speaker2:

coming along that you may not need today, but you're going to need tomorrow.

Speaker3:

That's right. And think of what a manufacturing plant looks like today.

Speaker3:

Right. Versus what it looked like 20 or 30 years ago and all the automation and robotics

Speaker3:

that are involved

Speaker1:

Now and the clean environment and the

Speaker3:

Clean environment.

Speaker2:

Yeah, I'm going to digress here just for a second, because one of the things that I would

Speaker2:

see in my clients when they were having trouble in their job searching because they were

Speaker2:

so attuned to the job they did and the tasks they did, they didn't even really understand

Speaker2:

that they had learned a lot and that they had gone through training and that there they

Speaker2:

were capable of doing critical thinking.

Speaker2:

They just didn't put it in that context.

Speaker2:

So it may not be that they don't have the skills, but they don't recognize how to show

Speaker2:

the value that they bring to a workplace.

Speaker3:

I think that's right. And I think there's also the concept of self-imposed ageism, right.

Speaker3:

That they lack confidence, that they assume that they're going to be treated with an

Speaker3:

ageist attitude.

Speaker3:

Right. When they may not be.

Speaker3:

And I think that is an issue for just assuming that will this potential employer is going

Speaker3:

to have an interesting attitude rather than go in and really sell themselves and what

Speaker3:

they can offer.

Speaker2:

I had a client, I was doing a workshop, and this was in the middle of the recession.

Speaker2:

And this gentleman who was, you know, dressed to the nines, got up and said, I applied

Speaker2:

for the perfect job for me.

Speaker2:

I was the absolute best candidate and I didn't get it.

Speaker2:

They just decided I was too old.

Speaker2:

And so we talked about it in front of a group of 100 people out there.

Speaker2:

And I finally said to him, So do you know who got the job?

Speaker2:

And he said, no. And I said, So you have no idea how old that person is.

Speaker2:

They could be one day older than you.

Speaker2:

You don't know. And and so it's not your assumption.

Speaker2:

It's what how you project your own abilities and value.

Speaker3:

And I heard of a similar circumstance where an individual was convinced that he was being

Speaker3:

he was a victim of ageism.

Speaker3:

And the person that was working with him asked to see his resume.

Speaker3:

The resume was full of typographical errors.

Speaker3:

Oh, there you go. So, you know, there's things like that.

Speaker3:

And then the individual assumed, well, it was ageism when in fact, it was his own his own

Speaker3:

typographical or grammatical errors in his resume.

Speaker3:

Right.

Speaker2:

So, Phyllis, you know, education, it can be a major barrier and not just college.

Speaker2:

So many people don't they haven't finished high school or they've only done GED programs.

Speaker2:

We've got trade schools.

Speaker2:

We've got technical programs and careers that require certificate or license.

Speaker2:

Ohio seems to have a school on every corner.

Speaker2:

You know, bless Governor Rhodes.

Speaker2:

He has community colleges all over the place.

Speaker2:

But employers keep saying they can't find qualified candidates.

Speaker2:

Why are adults not pursuing education in Ohio?

Speaker3:

I think one of the reasons is they don't understand the benefit.

Speaker3:

They don't realize that it's something that they need to do.

Speaker3:

But it might take an employment shock, a job loss for them to seek training.

Speaker3:

I think another factor is that some adults, particularly those with just a high school

Speaker3:

graduate degree, they may have had.

Speaker3:

Bad experiences in education at younger ages, whether it be bullying or maybe they had

Speaker3:

one really bad teacher and it turned them off from pursuing education, and they just are

Speaker3:

afraid they might have perceptions that they're too old to learn.

Speaker3:

They might think they can't afford going back to school.

Speaker3:

They might have a fear of test taking and they might have a lack of knowledge about

Speaker3:

programs that are available in their community and how they might benefit and how they

Speaker3:

might be able to upgrade their skills.

Speaker3:

And sometimes some of the people we had in our focus groups, it was before the community

Speaker3:

college project. It was not long after the Great Recession.

Speaker3:

And I recall one individual talking about they were there to upgrade their skills, to

Speaker3:

reduce their risk of future job loss.

Speaker3:

They wanted to have that extra degree so that they would be in a better position to be

Speaker3:

less likely to lose their job.

Speaker3:

And if they did lose their job, to have a qualification, that would make them more

Speaker3:

employable, more attractive to other employers.

Speaker3:

So I think a lot of it is just a lack of knowledge about what the opportunities are.

Speaker3:

And there are some quite affordable opportunities in Ohio and there are many options for

Speaker3:

financial aid.

Speaker2:

You know, when you think about it and going back to to what we were talking about just a

Speaker2:

bit ago, there's really been a change in how we should perceive our job.

Speaker2:

For many people coming out of college in their 20s, they saw it as a profession and knew

Speaker2:

that there were going to be steps they had to take to keep up their license to keep

Speaker2:

duCille use they were required to do.

Speaker2:

And those kinds of positions where folks who didn't go to a college or trade school had a

Speaker2:

position where in a good job, maybe in manufacturing or logistics, wherever, but they

Speaker2:

didn't see that as a career.

Speaker2:

They saw it as a job.

Speaker2:

And you just applied for a job and you got that job and kind of and a story.

Speaker2:

You did it for eight hours a day and you went home where now really employers are have

Speaker2:

higher expectations, regardless of what level that job is.

Speaker2:

And then and it's the same kind of preparation and continued learning at all levels.

Speaker3:

That's right. That's right, Carol.

Speaker2:

Yeah. So, OK.

Speaker2:

All right.

Speaker1:

We touched upon this earlier.

Speaker1:

It it looks as though we can't build Ohio's economy without a trained and educated

Speaker1:

workforce. In your opinion, what's happened and continues to happen in our educational

Speaker1:

systems that prevent Ohioans from workforce training?

Speaker1:

We talked about the students here just a moment ago.

Speaker1:

Let's get into the systems that exist.

Speaker3:

Yes, you're absolutely right that Ohio needs a trained and educated workforce.

Speaker3:

And I think the Ohio Department of Higher Education is really recognized that they had a

Speaker3:

grant from the Lumina Foundation to really focus in on educational attainment for adults

Speaker3:

ages 25 to 64.

Speaker3:

The women in a foundation just based on their own research propose that in order for the

Speaker3:

U.S. to be competitive, that about 60 to 65 percent of adults ages 25 to 64 needed to

Speaker3:

have a credential recognized in the workplace, which could be a certificate, it could be

Speaker3:

an associate's degree or bachelor's degree.

Speaker3:

Ohio is somewhere in the mid 40s right now, maybe 46, 47 percent.

Speaker3:

And Ohio Department of Higher Ed or ODAC formed an adult learner working group, which

Speaker3:

which I was a part of.

Speaker3:

And there were representatives from higher ed institutions from across the state at all

Speaker3:

levels, um, Ohio's technical centers, community colleges and baccalaureate institutions

Speaker3:

where we're a part of this.

Speaker3:

And to really develop strategies from from a lot of different perspectives, from reducing

Speaker3:

inequality just from through the equity lens, because a lot of institutions, particularly

Speaker3:

baccalauréat institutions, racial and ethnic minorities, are underrepresented and

Speaker3:

underrepresented. So I think Ohio has recognized it.

Speaker3:

And there's another piece to that, that because of the decline in fertility rates,

Speaker3:

projections for college enrollment by high school graduates by, say, 2020, 2030 is really

Speaker3:

projected to decline.

Speaker3:

And that's well recognized.

Speaker3:

And it's recognized that in order for US colleges throughout Ohio to maintain enrollment

Speaker3:

levels, they have to go after the adult students.

Speaker3:

And it's it's not.

Speaker3:

Just from an enrollment standpoint, but also to meet employer needs in Ohio, right?

Speaker1:

Right, right. Right.

Speaker1:

Yeah, it's in our former lives working with Carol at a nonprofit, we had a guest speaker,

Speaker1:

Elizabeth ISIL, founder of the Global Institute for Experienced on Entrepreneurship.

Speaker1:

And and again, she has this global view of it.

Speaker1:

And it was really eye opening with what she spoke about.

Speaker1:

And I think this tapers off of what you just talked about, that the United States has no

Speaker1:

clue on the workforce development compared to other countries in regards to implementing

Speaker1:

15 over 40 and over and recognizing that they're very talented in what they do and we're

Speaker1:

so far behind.

Speaker3:

Yeah, and I think Europe may be ahead of us just because they're they have a their

Speaker3:

population is aging even faster than the U.S., Germany, Italy.

Speaker3:

They are actually projecting population declines.

Speaker3:

I think the Scandinavian countries are especially ahead of the U.S.

Speaker3:

in terms of offering lifelong learning opportunities.

Speaker3:

They have what they call Fulci High schools.

Speaker3:

They have what they call learning circles or learning associations that are available at

Speaker3:

little or no cost to adults of all ages.

Speaker3:

And it's not just the learning aspect, it's the social aspect and the social trust, civic

Speaker3:

engagement. All of those things are built as well.

Speaker1:

And it's a cultural thing. I totally get that.

Speaker1:

That's generation after generation after generation of this.

Speaker1:

You hit the peak of 65 and you're ready to retire and you hit the rock or on the front

Speaker1:

porch and those days are gone.

Speaker3:

Well, a lot of that goes back to the shift from defined benefit to defined contribution

Speaker3:

retirement plans when right when most corporations in the U.S.

Speaker3:

shifted the risk to retirement to their employees.

Speaker3:

And a lot of people have not done as well as they should have in terms of their financial

Speaker3:

planning for retirement.

Speaker3:

So they've ended up staying in the labor force at older ages.

Speaker2:

Do you think also, though, too, that because the U.S.

Speaker2:

population was considered a young population until the baby boomers started hitting

Speaker2:

middle age? I mean, we we we had that notion of we were going to be perpetually young and

Speaker2:

young. Now we're young at heart.

Speaker2:

But, you know, it's the population is aging and it's not going to change,

Speaker3:

You know, and with declining birth rates, right?

Speaker2:

That's right. I mean, and we depended on on higher immigration.

Speaker2:

And now who knows where that's going so well.

Speaker1:

And but we knew this wave was coming.

Speaker1:

I remember hearing those reports like, well, there's this big boomer generation that's

Speaker1:

going to hit us at this certain point in time.

Speaker1:

And these are the factors that have come into play.

Speaker1:

And and what we have to really watch out for and like how that's so far away, that's so

Speaker1:

far away and all of a sudden, boom, right.

Speaker1:

It's here. And it's like we weren't prepared.

Speaker1:

We knew this was coming.

Speaker2:

We just wanted to ignore the hope that something else would happen.

Speaker1:

Almost. Yeah. Just keep kicking the can down the road.

Speaker1:

Right.

Speaker2:

Exactly. Well, and as I kind of in other podcasts and in earlier in this one hinted, one

Speaker2:

of my previous career lives was at one of the major universities and continuing education

Speaker2:

and 20 years of really helping adults and and our definition of adult students were

Speaker2:

usually 23 and up.

Speaker2:

So I mean, adults, but it was basically out of high school five years and really seen the

Speaker2:

issues and trying to create systems and services based on their needs being, you know,

Speaker2:

offices opened in the evening and on Saturday mornings and helping people hand walk

Speaker2:

through registration, particularly when they went to online registration because it was

Speaker2:

so foreign to our students.

Speaker2:

And as I mentioned before, we started podcasting this morning at my university, the

Speaker2:

continuing ed students, the adult students on campus were the second largest group of

Speaker2:

students on campus.

Speaker2:

But the university did not recognise that need.

Speaker2:

And I think at that every university in Ohio closed their continuing ad unit.

Speaker2:

They may have created something else in its wake, but but basically everything that said,

Speaker2:

adult students continuing education was gone.

Speaker2:

And that's that's critical.

Speaker2:

I mean, talk about not making adults welcome on campus.

Speaker2:

You get rid of their unit and not give them something else.

Speaker2:

So we've talked about a little bit about the systems, Phyllis.

Speaker2:

What? What?

Speaker2:

Can we do to help our educational system recognise the importance of adult students?

Speaker3:

I think that some of that is changing and I think of some of the programs at Miami

Speaker3:

University, there's an initiative to create sort of micro credentials for students or

Speaker3:

they can be alums. They can be people in the community to really re-engage or keep

Speaker3:

engaged adults for learning opportunities throughout their life.

Speaker3:

I'm I'm an alum of Ohio State, and I get.

Speaker3:

Emails from their alumni association about various opportunities to listen to a webinar

Speaker3:

or things like that, but I think that going back to the issue of enrollment, perhaps.

Speaker3:

Enrolment can be thought of in a different way, not not enrolling in a program of study,

Speaker3:

but enrolling in maybe a micro credential.

Speaker2:

Right, exactly.

Speaker2:

And we said years ago that an adult student goes back to a campus because they have a

Speaker2:

need that need can be met with a certain number of courses, one or more.

Speaker2:

And they're getting a degree is not their priority.

Speaker2:

But the universities and many colleges are still based on that notion of degree granting

Speaker2:

degree track.

Speaker3:

Well, one of the things that we found in the community college study there, there were

Speaker3:

data or data available on student goals.

Speaker3:

And we looked by age at student goals.

Speaker3:

Were they there to get an associate's degree?

Speaker3:

What was their reason for going?

Speaker3:

And with increasing age, more of the students were there for some short term training to

Speaker3:

upgrade their skills or for personal enrichment and not really seeking a degree.

Speaker3:

Right. They were there to maybe to build a skill that would help them stay employed.

Speaker2:

And and I think one of the differences is that when people did that before, they already

Speaker2:

had a degree. But I'm guessing that today they may not have a degree.

Speaker2:

It's still very much skills based,

Speaker3:

Its skills base.

Speaker3:

But we were surprised.

Speaker3:

And granted, the focus group volunteers are not a sample.

Speaker3:

Right. But we were surprised at the number of participants in the focus groups that

Speaker3:

already had degrees or that maybe they had bachelor's or even had one with a Ph.D.

Speaker3:

But I recall one participant she had she got a degree in engineering at Ohio State, say,

Speaker3:

30 years ago, and she stayed home with her children and her skills became obsolete.

Speaker3:

And she was fearful to go to a baccalaureate institution institution.

Speaker3:

So she enrolled at a community college and felt more comfortable in the classroom.

Speaker3:

And she ended up, I believe, transferring and eventually got a master's in something.

Speaker3:

So it's one way for and Carol, you and I may have talked about this, the program 60 at

Speaker3:

Ohio State. Right.

Speaker3:

And colleges and universities throughout the state have an opportunity for adults age 60

Speaker3:

and older to audit a class on a space available basis with the permission of the

Speaker3:

instructor and to kind of get their feet wet if they haven't been in school for a while

Speaker3:

to see understand how it's different.

Speaker3:

Right. And kind of figure out what are their real interests.

Speaker3:

What if they went back to school?

Speaker3:

What would they like to study before making a financial investment?

Speaker2:

Well, and I think I'm sort of not atypical, but an example of going back.

Speaker2:

So my Ph.D.

Speaker2:

is in sociology and business, which was, you know, unheard of then and now.

Speaker2:

But in working at the university, working on nonprofit boards and then at a nonprofit,

Speaker2:

over time, I realized I needed to understand budgeting and financial reports and all of

Speaker2:

that. So I went back to a community college and took the accounting sequence of courses

Speaker2:

so that I would understand what it was I was looking at, you know, not just what a debit

Speaker2:

in a credit is, but, you know, what's the difference between cash flow and and a budget?

Speaker2:

What where where we were going?

Speaker2:

And again, it was to get the information I needed, not to get a degree,

Speaker1:

You know, can you provide some more information on examples that are successful programs

Speaker1:

in Ohio or maybe programs you've researched and feel would be a good fit in our state?

Speaker3:

Well, adults ages 25 and older are more likely to enroll at a community college than a

Speaker3:

baccalaureate institution, which makes sense.

Speaker3:

And the Ohio Technical Centers, which award?

Speaker3:

They award certificates and diplomas, and by diploma, I mean it might be an R.N.

Speaker3:

diploma registered nurse diploma, and they can sit for the same state board that a

Speaker3:

someone that gets an associate's degree at a community college sits for.

Speaker3:

And they work very closely with employers in the community.

Speaker3:

They're small there.

Speaker3:

They may only have a few hundred students and that the Ohio technical centers are an

Speaker3:

offshoot of joint vocational high schools that were developed in Ohio, I think in the

Speaker3:

60s, roughly 60s.

Speaker3:

And Ohio structure is rather unique in their adult programs.

Speaker3:

I'm not an expert on this, but it's my understanding that somewhere along the way

Speaker3:

somebody realized we have these buildings and all these resources that are not being used

Speaker3:

in the evenings and on weekends.

Speaker3:

Right. So they started these adult programs in essentially the same bases in most cases

Speaker3:

where the high school students go during the day.

Speaker3:

And it's really a good use of facilities and resources.

Speaker3:

And they have all sorts of programs.

Speaker3:

They have welding, they have advanced manufacturing robotics.

Speaker3:

They have a lot of similar programs to community colleges, but they're highly structured.

Speaker3:

They a program might last for a year and the classes might meet four nights a week.

Speaker3:

Right. So they're very structured.

Speaker3:

And some students that doesn't work for some students that want more flexible schedules,

Speaker3:

they go to community colleges.

Speaker3:

But I think one issue that you brought up, Carol, that came up a lot when we were doing

Speaker3:

our focus groups, is that most adult students, they work full or part time.

Speaker3:

They're looking for classes in the evenings, the campus offices for tutoring, for

Speaker3:

advising, for financial aid.

Speaker3:

They're not open in the evenings.

Speaker3:

Right. And that was a complaint we heard from a lot.

Speaker3:

I think a lot of the colleges recognized that and are trying to be more flexible.

Speaker3:

Everything's online now.

Speaker3:

So, well, not everything.

Speaker3:

A lot of things are helpful.

Speaker3:

It helps. It helps a lot.

Speaker3:

Yeah.

Speaker2:

One of the things when I went back to the local community college for my accounting

Speaker2:

courses that I was really surprised at was that I had to go and go to admissions in one

Speaker2:

building, registration in another building, the bookstore in another building.

Speaker2:

So even on the community colleges, the services were siloed and that the idea of putting

Speaker2:

things all together just then didn't exist.

Speaker2:

Another story I was really active with a professional association of continuing educators

Speaker2:

in Ohio, and our goal was to emphasize continuing education, adult education in the state

Speaker2:

from all perspectives.

Speaker2:

So it was private schools, the universities, the public universities, all the the two

Speaker2:

year campuses, proprietary schools.

Speaker2:

And we would work with local legislators and the governor's office to talk about the

Speaker2:

needs of adult students and not the current change to semesters, which just happened in

Speaker2:

the last 15 years or so at all the schools.

Speaker2:

But there was a wave of going to semesters back in the 90s and a lot of the the smaller

Speaker2:

private schools went from quarters to semesters.

Speaker2:

One of the schools, the continuing ad unit, their enrollment dropped by half.

Speaker2:

Their students could not go from a quarter to a semester.

Speaker2:

They needed to they couldn't deal with that length of time on a course because of family

Speaker2:

obligations and all, so that continuing at unit was able to change their the schedules of

Speaker2:

the courses they supported to many masters.

Speaker2:

So they actually went from ten weeks to eight weeks instead of going up to 15 or 16

Speaker2:

weeks. So that big, long explanation.

Speaker2:

So my question, Phyllis's, what can we do to get the state to actually have a plan for

Speaker2:

adult education, to recognize adults in the the the scope of all of the programs that

Speaker2:

they are trying to create and, you know, K through 12 and up through adulthood?

Speaker3:

I think the community colleges are starting to offer some shorter term programs, like

Speaker3:

breaking a semester into two pieces.

Speaker3:

For the reasons you were talking about, Carol, it just fits in better with adult

Speaker3:

students. I think that the work of this adult learner working group I was talking about,

Speaker3:

I think that will help.

Speaker3:

But administrators at each college community college, they have to buy in to the need.

Speaker3:

And if there's not that buy in,

Speaker2:

It's not going to happen. If there's not the funding for it, it's not going to happen

Speaker2:

either. All right.

Speaker1:

Well, and, you know, in coming off that just for a bit, diving in, are we looking at a

Speaker1:

situation right now with covid, the pandemic and university enrollment down?

Speaker1:

A lot of the universities are on teetering, even closing retrenchment, particularly

Speaker2:

The smaller

Speaker1:

Schools. So we're dealing with a situation here that we may not see in a resolution to

Speaker1:

helping this for a little while.

Speaker3:

Correct. And I think that's possible.

Speaker1:

I mean, it's all conjecture.

Speaker3:

Of course it is possible.

Speaker2:

It would be a shame for the state and the educational institutions to not take advantage

Speaker2:

of a new normal.

Speaker2:

Right. Right.

Speaker2:

And so we have seen what we can do.

Speaker2:

In not getting to a store, not getting to be able to buy groceries, what having kids

Speaker2:

working, we're working from home and our kids are learning from home.

Speaker2:

This is an opportunity for many of the schools to say, what can we do to make things

Speaker2:

easier for all students, not just the traditional age students, but adult students?

Speaker1:

Right, right. Exactly.

Speaker2:

Yeah. And particularly that we can we can get past the technology issues.

Speaker2:

It's, again, an educational process that we need to do.

Speaker2:

But we can get people up to speed on technology.

Speaker3:

We can there are still parts of Ohio, the rural areas, rural Appalachian.

Speaker3:

Right. Appalachia that lack broadband.

Speaker3:

Right. Right.

Speaker2:

And there's no issue.

Speaker2:

But, you know, they put through there was an organization in Ohio that was supposed to do

Speaker2:

broadband all over it.

Speaker2:

I'm not sure where that went, but

Speaker3:

I did an interview with someone and an Ohio technical center yesterday that is at a school

Speaker3:

in rural Appalachia.

Speaker3:

And they still have a lot of issues with their students.

Speaker3:

And it was especially bad during the pandemic because the students would go to the

Speaker3:

library, right.

Speaker3:

Libraries to get access to public libraries.

Speaker3:

And they were closed. Right.

Speaker3:

Um, but I do wonder how education will change.

Speaker3:

What lessons were learned during the pandemic that will we'll see education change on a

Speaker3:

more permanent basis.

Speaker3:

And I think business travel will business travel be less because people figured out what

Speaker3:

they can do a lot to resume meetings.

Speaker2:

Right?

Speaker1:

Right. And from what I've heard so far, the predictions are business travel will be down.

Speaker1:

That's what they're predicting.

Speaker1:

And that's where the bulk of money comes from for travel.

Speaker1:

You know, the vacations and personal just don't make up the bulk of what airlines make.

Speaker1:

Right. So they're realizing we don't have to budget this in as much as we do.

Speaker1:

You have to go as many conferences.

Speaker1:

The pick, the key ones you have to be and you better be presenting as well.

Speaker1:

That's right. That's right.

Speaker3:

Well, we don't get reimbursed to go to a conference unless we present.

Speaker3:

I mean, I can't part of the the grants I'm involved in with, I guess dissemination is a

Speaker3:

big component. And we have to submit a dissemination plan with our grant application to

Speaker3:

really hit for four audiences, the practitioners, the academic audience, the general

Speaker3:

public and policymakers.

Speaker3:

So we have to have strategies to like presenting a practitioner conference and those who

Speaker3:

are all virtual last year, they're there will be some in-person conferences, but I

Speaker3:

suspect Miami is not alone, that most universities, I believe, have prohibited travel

Speaker3:

right by their age either.

Speaker3:

But there hasn't they haven't really been any places to go, so.

Speaker1:

Right. Right. Exactly.

Speaker1:

Exactly. Yeah. Well, we've discussed, you know, the barriers there, critical issues for

Speaker1:

minority candidates and older adults.

Speaker1:

But let's expand that conversation to include the issues of women, veterans, immigrants.

Speaker1:

There are a whole lot of categories here that, you know, we haven't really touched upon.

Speaker1:

Are there other issues that need to be addressed for these groups?

Speaker1:

Are the solutions the same or more complex?

Speaker3:

I think they're more complex.

Speaker3:

And let's take women as an example.

Speaker3:

There have been more women that have dropped out of the labor force during the pandemic

Speaker3:

than men, and it's because of their traditional childcare responsibilities.

Speaker3:

Schools were closed, so they were helping either homeschooling or helping their children

Speaker3:

adapt to virtual learning.

Speaker3:

And it's it's kind of worrisome because.

Speaker3:

Because. Leaving the workforce for a period of time, it's harder to get back in and it

Speaker3:

can impact their their retirement security, financial security and retirement.

Speaker3:

And in talking with with community college leaders in Ohio, they saw a drop in

Speaker3:

enrollment, especially from the female students, because for the same reasons, because of

Speaker3:

childcare issues and really need those that were still working to focus more heavily on

Speaker3:

work. Um, so it's going to put women behind it.

Speaker3:

Education, lower skilled.

Speaker3:

Especially those who say only a high school diploma or less, and especially those that

Speaker3:

have racial and ethnic minorities have been especially hard hit during the pandemic and

Speaker3:

women more than men.

Speaker3:

So I think it will take special efforts to re-engage those groups during the pandemic.

Speaker3:

And some of the jobs that I think of in retail and hospitality, they may not come back in

Speaker3:

the same way people are shopping online more.

Speaker3:

Seems like every month or so you hear of a shopping center that's closing ranks to close

Speaker3:

their doors and be torn down.

Speaker3:

The first shopping center I ever shopped at when I was a kid was I grew up, lived in

Speaker3:

rural Ohio when I was young, was Northland.

Speaker3:

It was an open mall and it's not there anymore.

Speaker3:

Right. And there's and I remember there was a shopping center in downtown Columbus.

Speaker3:

Oh, yes. It was torn down.

Speaker2:

All right. So. Right.

Speaker3:

Yeah, it's it's hard to know how how jobs are going to change.

Speaker3:

And then we have automation on top of all that.

Speaker3:

That is going to eliminate jobs or change jobs, I should say, not necessarily eliminate,

Speaker3:

but make them more complex with different skill requirements.

Speaker2:

Phyllis, one of the little side conversations we've had, that that sounds like it could be

Speaker2:

a lot of fun is the concept of age friendly university.

Speaker2:

And you you had mentioned that to me and that you are helping to bring that to Miami.

Speaker2:

So tell us a little bit about what that is and why it's going to help all of our

Speaker2:

listeners in their jobs.

Speaker3:

Well, Miami University and Akron University are the only two age friendly universities in

Speaker3:

Ohio. It the concept started I'm not sure how long ago, but it was originated by, I

Speaker3:

believe, Dublin City College in Ireland.

Speaker3:

And that's who our application went through to become an age friendly university in

Speaker3:

Indiana. Purdue is an age friendly university.

Speaker3:

And you can if you if you look do an Internet search for age friendly universities,

Speaker3:

you'll find some information.

Speaker3:

But it's it's not just about, say, a program 60 that allows older students to enroll at

Speaker3:

no cost. It's really we think of it as being age inclusive, to being friendly to

Speaker3:

individuals of all ages in all aspects of the university.

Speaker3:

And that's that's how we approached it when when scripts worked on this application, it

Speaker3:

was it was quite well received throughout the university.

Speaker3:

And but we like to think of ourselves as an age inclusive to from from opportunities.

Speaker3:

We have an Institute for Learning and Retirement ELR, um, that's that's one thing that we

Speaker3:

offer for adult students.

Speaker3:

And then another aspect is what I was talking about before, the micro credentials that

Speaker3:

Miami University would like to grow.

Speaker3:

But I think I'm hoping that other universities in Ohio will embrace this concept of age

Speaker3:

friendly universities.

Speaker3:

And I think it's. It's it's kind of a mentality of recognizing the value of students of

Speaker3:

all ages, and it to me it goes hand in hand with this attainment objective to try and

Speaker3:

engage, re-engage adults ages 25 to 64 if they don't have a credential to enroll in a

Speaker3:

college or university to get a recognized credential and to if it's more

Speaker3:

embrace of the concept of an age friendly university is more embraced by more

Speaker3:

institutions of higher ed throughout the state.

Speaker3:

I think it will.

Speaker3:

It will help the entire university, the faculty, the students to become more accepting of

Speaker3:

students of all ages.

Speaker3:

One of the things that I'm hoping will happen that is kind of along the same lines is

Speaker3:

recognizing that there is ageism in the classroom, right.

Speaker3:

Not just by students, that of traditional age that might say, you know, what are you

Speaker3:

doing here? You're an old person, but faculty as well, and just the language of ageism.

Speaker3:

So we're hoping to develop some some webinars that will educate

Speaker3:

faculty about working in an age, you know, thinking in terms of age ism being part of the

Speaker3:

diversity, equity and inclusion discussion.

Speaker3:

Right.

Speaker2:

We've had other guests and we've talked about ageism and in particularly in the workplace.

Speaker2:

And and actually, ageism is the only ism that seems to be allowed.

Speaker2:

We talk about other isms and and, you know, everybody throws their hands up and go, oh,

Speaker2:

you can't do that. But ageism, folks that like, well, that's not a big deal, but it

Speaker2:

really is, because that one thing that we do is we do get older and we do pay in taxes.

Speaker2:

So.

Speaker3:

Yeah. And those young students are going to be old someday.

Speaker2:

Exactly.

Speaker1:

Exactly right. Well, you know, before we end, first of all, I want to say thank you for

Speaker1:

and fellow alum being on the podcast will not be the last time we're going to dig more.

Speaker1:

We'll bring more of yours as well, too.

Speaker1:

But yes, we need more money on

Speaker2:

The Otterbein Theater folks vicinities.

Speaker1:

We need more Alem on the podcast.

Speaker1:

But would you like to share some last words of wisdom, some tips before we end the

Speaker1:

podcast?

Speaker3:

I think adults of all ages, middle age, older adults should not underestimate themselves

Speaker3:

in their abilities to go back to school and be successful.

Speaker3:

I think it's helpful to find a mentor, somebody that's in the if you're thinking that you

Speaker3:

might be interested in some health profession, find a mentor that can help you understand

Speaker3:

what's involved. Do an informational interview for four new occupation so you know what's

Speaker3:

really involved and maybe do some job shadowing.

Speaker3:

I have been a lifelong learner myself, as you can tell from the my various degrees or was

Speaker3:

somewhat of a gap between the degrees.

Speaker3:

But I also did a lot of what I think of as continuing education in terms of professional

Speaker3:

credentials, right.

Speaker3:

Certifications, industry recognized certifications that can be valuable in keeping

Speaker3:

keeping a job and recognizing that.

Speaker3:

That skills job requirements change over time.

Speaker3:

The last job I had at Prudential was in Valuation's appraisal and I my background is real

Speaker3:

estate appraisal, but I.

Speaker3:

Went through the process of becoming a chartered financial analyst, which is asset

Speaker3:

values, asset valuation, all types of assets.

Speaker3:

So just doing things like that to.

Speaker3:

To consider how can I keep my skills up to date, how can I make myself attractive to my

Speaker3:

to my employer so they'll keep me.

Speaker3:

And so I can advance.

Speaker3:

So those are just some of the suggestions I have for the people listening to this today.

Speaker3:

Don't underestimate yourself.

Speaker3:

Think how have lofty goals for what you might want to do.

Speaker3:

And just if you're if you don't want to enroll in a baccalaureate program, just step your

Speaker3:

toe in and take a course to see.

Speaker3:

Well, is it interesting?

Speaker2:

Right. And really take take that chance.

Speaker2:

Yes, absolutely.

Speaker2:

And as you said, I appreciate you say don't underestimate your own abilities.

Speaker2:

People have been learning in their jobs, in their volunteer life, in their family life,

Speaker2:

in their church life.

Speaker2:

They've learned a lot of skills.

Speaker2:

So use that as your base and just keep growing with those.

Speaker2:

Yes.

Speaker3:

People don't always know that they're learning.

Speaker3:

Exactly. There's a concept of formal learning, non formal learning and informal learning

Speaker3:

and informal learning is just reading a magazine about current events or reading an

Speaker3:

article about some new invention.

Speaker3:

It can be anything, right?

Speaker2:

Right. And there is a lot of value.

Speaker2:

Employers value the fact that you are willing to look, to learn, to understand and to see

Speaker2:

a bigger picture. So wonderful.

Speaker2:

Thank you, fellas, so much for joining us today.

Speaker2:

We appreciate it. And audience, don't forget, check out the website, show notes and we'll

Speaker2:

have lots of information for you posted there.

Speaker2:

And thanks to everybody at Scripps for allowing us to talk about their wonderful programs

Speaker2:

and have Phyllis with us today.

Speaker2:

Speaker3: Thank you.