TEITR 422 Adriana Care

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[00:00:00] Veronica: In this episode, we look at the uncomfortable reality facing aging parents and their adult children. The traditional age care pathway is expensive, emotionally fraught, [00:00:10] and often poorly understood until it's too late. We dig into the real options.

[00:00:14] Veronica: People are weighing up, staying at home, moving into residential care, or reshaping the family home altogether, [00:00:20] and how these choices are actually being funded in practice. Practice, not in theory. This episode should make people pause because aging property and family don't always [00:00:30] mix well without clear eyes and firm boundaries.

[00:00:33] Veronica: There are legal implications that are often not thought about until it's too late, and today we're going to get a greater understanding of what these might [00:00:40] be.

[00:00:40] ​

[00:01:18] Veronica: Our guest today [00:01:20] is Adriana, care managing partner at Coutts Legal.

[00:01:22] Veronica: Adriana is a specialist aged care and elder law advisor who works at the coalface with families making these [00:01:30] decisions under pressure. She's seeing a clear shift among the so-called sandwich generation, particularly towards building granny flats or secondary dwellings to house aging parents. [00:01:40] And this raise.

[00:01:40] Veronica: Complex questions around money, fairness, Centrelink control, and what can go wrong when good intentions meet poor planning. So welcome, Adriana. [00:01:50] We have not covered much on this topic before, in fact, probably anything. However, it's a very big elephant in the room. We're really looking forward to learning a great deal today.

[00:01:58] Veronica: So thanks for coming along.

[00:01:59] Andriana: My [00:02:00] pleasure and it definitely is something people don't like talking about in families, that's for sure. Money and the diet, family dynamic.

[00:02:07] CB: Thanks so much for coming on, Adriana. I we've, we've done over four [00:02:10] episodes, And coming into this year, you know, over the break I was thinking like, well, some of the topics I really wanna.

[00:02:14] CB: Sort of cover. And I, I started in my head thinking about this and I didn't actually know Veronica had booked you. because I think it's a [00:02:20] really interesting dynamic at play where, you know, the baby boomers and their parents and they're living longer and we've got this big demographic sort of [00:02:30] wave.

[00:02:30] CB: and you know, and I think it's a, it's having a huge impact on the overall way that our property market works. And, what are you seeing, I guess, like What are some of the biggest challenges you're seeing? Not only for the [00:02:40] people that are, you know, aging and aged care, but also for their kids and grandkids.

[00:02:43] Andriana: Well, it's, it's a double whammy in especially, um, I don't know your view. Your listeners might not know, but [00:02:50] I'm located in Sydney and I feel like, Sydney does. Property does trend and then it slowly infiltrates across Australia. Some states actually do, a little bit more [00:03:00] aggressive, than Sydney.

[00:03:00] Andriana: But in this trend, I think this is happening a lot and it's happening since the last 10 years, but it's now becoming, quite. Prevalent in issues and challenges when [00:03:10] the elderly parents are passing away. So let's reverse back and answer the question. You said there's a couple of reasons why people are doing it at the moment.

[00:03:18] Andriana: Yes. We've got an aging [00:03:20] population. We've got,a limitation of resources in Australia and in particular, Sydney Metropolitan of. So a lot of people are electing to do home [00:03:30] care when they're aging, and then they're electing to utilize, family, usually children. the other thing is a financial restriction.

[00:03:38] Andriana: So what I meant by Sydney [00:03:40] setting a trend, it's really hard to get into the Sydney market and. If you read a lot of, um, you know, financial papers and, and say, [00:03:50] who is the third biggest bank in Australia? They actually say the parents are helping their kids get into property. And so that's just to get into property.

[00:03:59] Andriana: But [00:04:00] what's actually happening in reverse is that. Parents are see, elderly or people are sitting on very large properties, very wealthy properties, and [00:04:10] then can't utilize it and don't really have any other source of income, maybe other than a pension or their self-funded retiree. And they're thinking, how can I switch this, into [00:04:20] liquidity and help my family and still have a roof over my head?

[00:04:23] Andriana: These are all the challenges that a people are having. So predominantly people would think it's about care. Maybe [00:04:30] losing one parent and you know, loneliness is also another reason. And then there's also the reverse. We're in an environment and we've been in that environment for more than 20 [00:04:40] years. We are two people working and you know, in, in a household, you know, parents. So we do lean on grandparents to look after kids and then there's distance and would it be [00:04:50] better for them to live on the same property due occupancy? There is a lot of key factors that are happening and people tend to start thinking about, well, I'm sitting on a very [00:05:00] valuable asset, no mortgage.

[00:05:02] Andriana: I can't use it, but I could help my children or my children can take care of me, or I can live with someone because I'm actually afraid to live on my own. [00:05:10] There is many, many reasons, and a lot of it goes down to resourcing as well.

[00:05:14] Veronica: So just, it's probably the thing didn't. Clarify at the beginning of this is that what we are talking about [00:05:20] here is multi-generational living. We are talking about potentially, the elderly person or the older person who, or couple who have a big [00:05:30] house and potentially maybe they build a granny flat at the back.

[00:05:32] Veronica: They move there and their kids move into the front house or the, the main house or. Potentially the sandwich generation. So the Gen [00:05:40] X is in the middle, are basically saying, well, look, we're actually done. All right. We've got this big, big property on a big block of land. We could put a granny flat out the back.

[00:05:46] Veronica: Perhaps mom and dad could partly fund that. Or perhaps maybe mom and [00:05:50] dad could move in there, and then they might help my kids get into the market. So they're sort of looking at, the solution to sort of killing more than one bird with, or [00:06:00] two birds with one stone here. But it's looking almost like family assets as opposed to necessarily, well, this is my house and you are not moving into it.

[00:06:09] Veronica: Or [00:06:10] it would, is that something that you are seeing sort of at, at all those different levels, looking from different angles? You're starting to see more and more of? I.

[00:06:17] Andriana: we're definitely seeing there is a [00:06:20] couple of key factors that, challenge people. But yes, there is the whole, you know, this is our, there used to be this is our asset and you'll get it on death. Like, I'm okay, but now it's about how can I help [00:06:30] my children while whilst I'm living or help myself.

[00:06:32] Andriana: It's a very different changing attitude in the family dynamic that never used to be. a question we used to get a lot of, when I first [00:06:40] started in law 30 years ago, I don't ever remember that when people came in to do their estate planning, it was all about what can I do now? What can I do for myself and what can I do for my future dos [00:06:50] once I'm gone?

[00:06:51] Andriana: That discussion is not as, as strong as it is now, as in I'm, I wanna keep my pension, that's all I've got. But I've got this house that now I live in [00:07:00] Sydney Metro that's worth $3 million, which, you know, I bought it a hundred thousand dollars. 40 years ago. So, do I keep it, it's quite a large block. It's [00:07:10] an old, I wanna bring my kids in it or do I sell it and then do I move on to, you know, my, one of my, one of my childrens, and I say one because it gets very complicated when there's more [00:07:20] than one child, or it gets complicated when there's in-laws.

[00:07:23] Andriana: So, and, and what happens when you know the family dynamics? Straight down as well. And this is probably, I'm moving on to [00:07:30] you what the other chat, what more the challenges are. But it is a very common question now. because we are obviously, you know, the government's looking at self-funded retirees.

[00:07:39] Andriana: It's [00:07:40] really pushing people off the pension. What's people to be independent? And let's be honest, if you haven't read it. Certain governments are already saying, you know, that people who've [00:07:50] got vacant rooms or who have houses that aren't being utilized, they're looking at bringing in attacks. Now, I'm not saying that's gonna come ahead, but this is something that was never spoken about 20 [00:08:00] years.

[00:08:00] Andriana: This is how the world is changing, so that's why these conversations are being had.

[00:08:04] CB: so we, we see from the, the couple that can't enter the market. we have seen it [00:08:10] more and more. I remember when I first heard about it, client coming to me and saying, Hey, we really want to just buy a house with the parents and we're gonna pull our resources was probably like 4, 5, 6 years ago.

[00:08:18] CB: But, you know, it [00:08:20] has popped up quite a few times and that, you know, I've seen brothers and sisters buy and friends, et cetera, I mean, it makes sense, right? You've got a younger generation that's got income who haven't got assets. You've got a [00:08:30] middle generation that's, you know, potentially gotta have, think about taking care of their parents.

[00:08:34] CB: And then maybe the parents are, or the grandparents slash you know, in their sixties, seventies, are saying, [00:08:40] well, you know, before I become a burden, or before this property becomes a bit, maybe I should be, you know, making some decisions from a family earlier. Is that sort of what you're seeing is like [00:08:50] everyone's having challenges, maybe we should be.

[00:08:52] CB: Looking more and more at this sort of multi-generational solution for us, rather than us all doing our own thing and having three different homes [00:09:00] in Sydney, for example.

[00:09:00] Andriana: Yeah, so I do believe what you're saying is correct and that's why it's triggering the conversation. But there is other external factors that may be, it's like personal [00:09:10] needs in the sense, like you talked about care, That someone passes away, like one of the parents passes away. if I can be so forward and say single parents, like, so [00:09:20] the, the elderly parents have a child and they've become a single parent and they wanna help out.

[00:09:25] Andriana: There is so many key drivers and it's not taboo. Blend your [00:09:30] family back in. it's seen as how can we get the best and help our generations whilst we are living, which is a very. Different mindset other than in the [00:09:40] seventies and eighties and nineties where it was very common for new migrants to come in and pull their assets as a family to buy one house, and then each family would go and buy [00:09:50] their other house, which is a very reverse situation to now we are moving the other way now where there's a limitation on, which I didn't mention before, a limitation on availability of [00:10:00] housing.

[00:10:00] Andriana: the financial, you know, barriers to enter that. You know, the two parent, working family and care like children and care is, is a big challenge. [00:10:10] Grandparents are also our main carer. All the reverse that we become a carer because. You know, when people used to get un, were unwell or needed some level of care, you used to have to [00:10:20] go to a nursing home.

[00:10:21] Andriana: But now we have in-home care, we have funding from the government where they're encouraging people to stay in their house, that can still have available resources. So then [00:10:30] it's gotta be how does that happen and how can it happen? The one thing I wanna talk about as well is it's a really simple answer.

[00:10:38] Andriana: You would think that if [00:10:40] your scenario is six years ago. With your clients, okay. You know, couple A with the parents, couple B want to, you know, join finances and buy a [00:10:50] house together. And what do you do? You put it in both couples names and they live in this and they have the ownership. And that would make common sense.

[00:10:58] Andriana: But then it's not [00:11:00] the scenario that usually happens. Usually the child who's married says, well, if you are gonna move in with me and we are gonna own this together, when my parents pass. I've got [00:11:10] two other siblings, I'm gonna have to pay them out, otherwise I have to sell my family home. So then it becomes the challenge of, well, what should they get?

[00:11:18] Andriana: Can they get their [00:11:20] entitlement early? Then there's the whole, I don't wanna be on the title. Then there's the whole Centrelink. Do I want pension? What can I own? What can't I own? So this is [00:11:30] why there's challenges in the scenario rather than a simple, well, I'll, I'll bring in a million dollars from my sale of my house, you put in and borrow the million dollars and we'll buy a $2 million [00:11:40] house.

[00:11:40] Andriana: We both live in this maybe duplex or you know, the, the under one roof and we all own it. But then the problems happen after. So people are [00:11:50] starting to challenge each other and say, well, I don't wanna buy with mom and dad if that means I have to sell in 20 years time and I've been here for 20 years and I have to pay whatever the value is at the [00:12:00] time of 50%.

[00:12:01] Andriana: So then they start to be, okay, well what can we give and what can we put in our wheels? What should we put on who should own it? And that's where all the talons are [00:12:10] coming.

[00:12:10] Veronica: This is fascinating. Couple lots of questions going off in my head. one is. I'm wondering how much of this change, I mean, it sounds [00:12:20] like a big reason for this change is economics in the sense that Sydney is the most expensive property market in Australia. So therefore, as you say, if someone's gonna start here, it's because of those financial [00:12:30] pressures, and then it will sort of cascade down into other markets as they become very expensive.

[00:12:34] Veronica: But I'm wondering, because you mentioned about, you know. Migrants come to Australia and, their [00:12:40] pattern of, of home ownership and also from wherever country they came from as well, I think about like European ways in which, families, there's much more multi multifamily, [00:12:50] arrangements and that's been going on for, you know, hundreds of years really. So is that part of the reason also because we've got a sort of a cultural change in this country given the amount of [00:13:00] immigration that we have? Do you think that might be playing into it some way or you think it's more purely economic?

[00:13:04] Andriana: No, I think it's economic. I think the migrant influence is more about [00:13:10] availability of funding and studying. I think the drive for, if you wanna be a homeowner, is the drive to come to Australia is to then each family to own their own [00:13:20] home. but what I do think why we are much more open-minded to generational living in the backend of our lives is because of that Margaret influence.

[00:13:28] Andriana: That it's not taboo. [00:13:30] It's actually something that we should be, we've actually done a reverse in our si psyche. So, I do think whilst it's not the driver of that, we are following the trends of Europe. 'cause Europe's a [00:13:40] very different beast, as I call it. There's not a lot of land. There's no money, there's no, there's a lot of old towns and.

[00:13:47] Andriana: He's building on it like it's a very different market. [00:13:50] I do think that culture does bring in an influence that, that maybe that's the way it's coming as a solution is what I'm saying. And we didn't necessarily have that solution, or we never [00:14:00] thought of it like that. The other thing I've gotta say is. our pension is not, it's not sustainable to live on.

[00:14:07] Andriana: So people are challenged with, you know, the cost [00:14:10] of living. How am I going to live on this pension? Um, if they're not self-funded retirees, even self-funded retirees, it's very, very challenging in our cost of living environment. So it's about [00:14:20] challenging themselves and saying, all I've got, 'cause a lot of our, our baby boomers, which my parents are baby boomers.

[00:14:27] Andriana: I only had super right at the back end of [00:14:30] Chris if they did, if I'm gonna be honest. so they are either pensioners or self-funded retirees. So then they're now starting and the Sydney market has escalated, for example, not [00:14:40] actually all markets, property markets have escalated across Australia, I should say, and what they bought.

[00:14:46] Andriana: This house for is worth millions, and it's beyond what they could [00:14:50] see. So they are thinking, well, how can I utilize that? You know, one of the other options is reverse mortgages. No, it's a very challenging mindset with reverse [00:15:00] mortgages. That's really their option when they've only asset rich. One single set rich, not multiple.

[00:15:06] Andriana: They have to look at their family home and how do they utilize, [00:15:10] and this is the solution that people are coming up with.

[00:15:12] Veronica: also, I mean, I guess the aged care options are somewhat limited. You know, we do find, and anecdotally, we, I mean, I know you and I have had [00:15:20] conversations off air here, um, you know, around the vendor advisory work that we do, working with people to sell that one asset that they have and [00:15:30] optimize the, the, you know, the result from that. To facilitate moving into retirement living, but they're often leaving that until the last possible [00:15:40] minute, and I mean. I understand why it's daunting for starters, and it feels like God's waiting room and who wants to voluntarily put themselves in there. so there's lots of [00:15:50] emotional reasons as well as financial, but I think, and certainly with this, um, you know, governments, um, initiatives to encourage people to stay in home, you've [00:16:00] got sort of confusing. Narrative out there too. You got, you know, oh, you got empty rooms, you should be using those. But also we want you to stay at home because, you know, our aged care system is really, you know, collapsing under the, under the [00:16:10] weight of demand and, and we don't have enough, you know, enough staff, et cetera, et cetera. So do you see that limits of aged care options and also perception of them, [00:16:20] is that feeding into it as well? They're thinking, oh, we, God, anything's better than that.

[00:16:23] Andriana: I agree that it is weighed in on that discussion and thought pattern. So when you talk about retirement living, [00:16:30] I think it's a lot more modern today. There's a lot more variable options of full care, partial care, independent retirement, living in retirement [00:16:40] villages. I do think we've moved a long way in what they are looked at, but let's be honest, that is only just started in the last couple of years and it's [00:16:50] expensive.

[00:16:51] Andriana: It's expensive to go into retirement living. If you have a single asset and you need to go into full care retirement living you and you [00:17:00] have a a million dollar house. The government rules, and usually retirement village rules is that you have to pay. For that you have to sell up the asset anyway. [00:17:10] And that's triggering.

[00:17:11] Andriana: Why would I do that? Why wouldn't I just keep it in the family? Why wouldn't I move in with my kids or, there's still a lot of our aging [00:17:20] population and we are, getting, we have an older group, a bigger group, who are, aren't self-funded or do not have an asset and are purely [00:17:30] dependent on. The pension.

[00:17:31] Andriana: So they get priority in going into retirement villages like, government retirement villages because they've got no other [00:17:40] option. So. the market and the availability to, have a choice is very limiting. And it also depends on what area you are living in. If you're in Sydney there, it's, [00:17:50] the wait list is long.

[00:17:51] Andriana: So this is why people are looking at different options as well as I do still believe, even though we've got a lot better options in the [00:18:00] level of retirement, living and villages and full cares, half care, you know, independent. I still think it's taboo. To the current generation, elderly [00:18:10] generation.

[00:18:10] CB: I track all developments that are happening, et cetera, but there seems to be this, you know, we need more homes for, you know, singles and couples and divorcees and single parents and key [00:18:20] workers, downsizers, you know, families. but we also need a lot more retirement living, right?

[00:18:24] CB: Like in, I've been watching developments and it's been obviously, you know, prime land in, you know, eastern [00:18:30] suburbs, beaches, you know, inner west. and, you know, instead of building apartments they're like, well, no, no. The best bang for us is actually retirement living. and I've just been looking at the stats for us in Australia versus [00:18:40] globally, like we're well under what it is around the world.

[00:18:42] CB: And so is that gonna be a real challenge for us as a, as a country to build that? Because. We just haven't built it typically. It [00:18:50] just hasn't been a big part of our, our development.

[00:18:52] Andriana: Yes, I wanna answer that we are well behind the world, I think 'cause we're a younger country as well and we're not as well developed. Can I also say [00:19:00] this? despite what people think. My understanding from developers, I don't own retirement villages. It's not profitable. It's not as profitable as people think.

[00:19:09] Andriana: So, if it's [00:19:10] run well and it has government funding being paid into it, like childcares, it can be quite profitable. But some of the retirement, living that you are looking [00:19:20] at that is, developed by, private developers. a lot of, clubs that are looking at it because of a community arm rather than a profitable arm.

[00:19:29] Andriana: It's not [00:19:30] as financially viable as you think. Because if you look at a typical scenario where I am in the southwest, you would buy into a room or, or a, [00:19:40] a partial care living. You might invest a million dollars, but under the contract you'll get a percentage of your estate rather, or when you move out, we'll get a percentage of that and you pay an [00:19:50] ongoing fee.

[00:19:50] Andriana: The capital growth is kept maybe by the retirement village, but it depends on the turnover rate. There's so many variables, so it can be profitable. But when you're looking [00:20:00] at that versus building a new town or a new city and all these blocks, they tend to lead to that or, apartments people.

[00:20:07] Veronica: Different though. I mean, you know, as a retirement [00:20:10] village is built by an owner occupier, uh, an owner operator I should say, versus, you know, sell, building a block of apartments to sell off to individuals. And so it's, it's, it's a business decision [00:20:20] around,How to utilize that site, but also, you know, and that sort of, you're talking about that leads into funding this and, and the, traps.

[00:20:27] Veronica: And now this episode is not gonna be long enough [00:20:30] to go into all of this, but I've noticed that really interesting that yes, they do keep the capital growth. so you sell your family home. You decide whether, you know, 'cause there's different [00:20:40] options. Different retirement villages have different structures.

[00:20:42] Veronica: So you could, you know, maybe pay a hundred percent, 80%, 90 Yeah. 50%, whatever it is. And then there's obviously a different, return to the estate once [00:20:50] you shuffle this mortal coil. or if you then. Have to go into high care. Some, some of these, uh, retirement villages offer high care [00:21:00] facilities or others don't.

[00:21:01] Veronica: So you're gonna have to basically sell that, go somewhere else. and also if you're in a couple, what if one needs high care and the other one's fine? how do you navigate through that? How much [00:21:10] of your capital you are for your one asset? 'cause you sold your one asset, which is your family home.

[00:21:15] Veronica: You might be on the pension. You go into one of these villages, you, you [00:21:20] lose a lot of that. as you lose a chunk of that equity in buying into it because you're not gonna get it back, plus you don't get any capital growth. But I imagine that if they're well [00:21:30] run and in demand that they gotta experience capital growth.

[00:21:33] Veronica: And I've seen it too because I've had clients that have gone to buy-in and there's no transparency around what the last one sold for [00:21:40] or really what market value is. You know, and you don't know until one's available either. It's not like this is a price list and this is a brand new development. and then you might, you might wanna [00:21:50] know what the prices are of the next, um, retirement village.

[00:21:53] Veronica: But basically, unless there's one available in there, you're not gonna know that price either. And unless someone tells you what they paid for it, like, it's really [00:22:00] difficult to get information here. So you're going in blind, you're fearful because you're finally at a point where you've made a decision or you need to go in there.

[00:22:07] Veronica: We might have sold your home and you're gonna be about to be [00:22:10] homeless. you're fearful. So you, you sort of o offer overs, you know what I mean? It's all in the favor in terms of negotiating. It's totally in the favor of the retire, the, the operator of the retirement [00:22:20] village. Right. How do you guide people?

[00:22:22] Veronica: I mean, I can, with that, I can understand why somebody said, bugger this. I'm gonna build a granny flat.

[00:22:27] Andriana: so how do we guide? I mean, you, you've gotta do your due [00:22:30] diligence, but there's only so much you can do. And some of the challenges I've had with clients is they didn't do their due diligence and six months in they're saying I want out. And, um, [00:22:40] the penalty to leave before 12 months in most. Most agreements, even the best of the best retirement villages because like you said, they don't make money on [00:22:50] quick.

[00:22:50] Andriana: Or maybe we both said on quick term it's more, you know, that long-term growth. So, you need to do your due diligence, your management fees, your reoccurring fees, what it [00:23:00] covers, what it doesn't cover. So they have to disclose all this under the law. The law is quite hard. Quite regulated, but it doesn't mean that you're going to [00:23:10] understand the full effect of living in that environment.

[00:23:12] Andriana: So you've gotta do your due diligence, you've gotta speak to the people there. So if you are independent or semi-independent, so not full [00:23:20] care, which full care is a little bit different. you know, I have to be honest, I think full care. You're on a wait list. I don't think people can be picky, but you know, independent or partial, there is [00:23:30] more options to be a little bit more, um, picky between your choices.

[00:23:34] Andriana: You have to do your due diligence. So, an example, I was just actually meeting with one of my clients. [00:23:40] She moved into a retirement village, quite young. Like she's in her early sixties, but she's on her own and she thought that would be really good. she's a self-funded retiree and she thought it'd be a really good [00:23:50] environment for her 'cause she was lonely.

[00:23:51] Andriana: Her kids lived more in the center of Sydney. She said to me yesterday that whilst it's a beautiful envi like, place, like it's a jupe, it's a, [00:24:00] a semi, I should say. that the people are not her type of people because they're not self-funded retirees. So then if she's going on holidays, it's all judged.

[00:24:07] Andriana: And so this is a community side. This, this [00:24:10] is the other, you feel this side, not the legal side. So you really have to do your due diligence. You have to speak to people who live late. You have to probably try to go into some of their group sessions and see what they do. [00:24:20] So, um.And then you've got the financial aspect.

[00:24:23] Andriana: So she's now stuck there because she doesn't wanna lose half her fee in the first year, and she'll work it out afterwards, I suspect. but really [00:24:30] gotta do your due diligence. the documents and the information has to be there under the law, so you need to look at all fees, but usually what the biggest gripe I get or complaint I get [00:24:40] coming back to me or come to me.

[00:24:42] Andriana: They're not our clients and they become our clients is, I thought my fee covered X, but it doesn't cover that I have to pay more. [00:24:50] I thought I could park my caravan. I'm not allowed to park my caravan there, so now I've gotta go do, I'm just using real life simple examples because they didn't look at it all.

[00:24:59] Andriana: [00:25:00] They were just so, Taken up by how beautiful the estate looked or had a swimming pool. You know, the more facilities the retirement village has, the more you're paying. [00:25:10] And when you are got a limited pool of funds, it's 'cause you've gotta pay your entry fee that depletes quite quickly.

[00:25:17] Veronica: I'm on a personal mission to help more people make [00:25:20] better property decisions. You know, most people don't realize that they can cost themselves hundreds of thousands of dollars over the medium to long term when they make property decisions without all of the [00:25:30] information that they need. And what I do is help people with tricky real estate problems, which offer masqueraders simple questions like, should I sell my investment property because the interest re [00:25:40] payments are hurting, or should I buy before I sell?

[00:25:43] Veronica: Or the other way around. You could connect with me and access all of the tools that I've created to help you make better property decisions at [00:25:50] Veronica Morgan dot com au. And there you'll find resources for first home buyers, details about my buyer's agent mentoring program. You could connect with my Sydney based property management and [00:26:00] buyer's agency teams, Australia wide vendor advocacy.

[00:26:03] Veronica: Or ask me for introduction to the small group of buyer agents that I would personally recommend across the country. [00:26:10] That's Veronica Morgan dot com au.

[00:26:11] Veronica: If you're considering a property move, which is buying your first time, upgrading, renovating, or investing, the team here at Alcove would love to help you think through your [00:26:20] decision and get the finance right.

[00:26:21] Veronica: Please go to cove.com au to reach out.

[00:26:25] Veronica: And look, you dunno what you don't know, right? I would imagine that you've gotta really compare. You've gotta line them up. You can do [00:26:30] all your due diligence, but then you've gotta compare it to the next village, and the next village and the next village and so on. And.

[00:26:35] Andriana: And then availability makes you make a quicker decision.

[00:26:38] Veronica: exactly, you're under this sort of [00:26:40] pressure. And so, um, but also the contract of sale, it's very different. And I know, you know, when we, when we've got clients whose parents are doing [00:26:50] this or when we are, you know, offering, as a vendor advocate for someone who's selling their home quite often they've already. Actually made the commitment to the retirement village before they sell their home. Right. [00:27:00] So the retirement village does give them quite a lot of time to sell, which is great. Okay. And then that's really necessary so that they don't find themselves homeless or camping. They don't wanna be camping on their, [00:27:10] kids, you know, lounge for until a, a suitable place comes up.

[00:27:13] Veronica: So there's, there's. Very rarely that pressure of having sold and finding yourself homeless, but then you've got that pressure of having to [00:27:20] sell within that timeframe and also making sure that you've made decisions with the right dollars in your head, in terms of what you think you're gonna have available. But, so we are talking to these people after they've [00:27:30] made these decisions and often I find that they've used a lawyer that is just a local lawyer who doesn't necessarily specialize in these types of contracts. So it'd be really good to, give us a bit of an [00:27:40] overview with this. Sorts of things that people can really inadvertently get themselves caught out by, by using the wrong legal advice.

[00:27:48] Andriana: so if, you've got a lawyer who [00:27:50] doesn't, you know, explore. This area, then they wouldn't understand what the disclosure document has to have. So yes, you have a contract of sale, which you know you do with any transactional property in all of [00:28:00] Australia, just different states have different forms, format rather.

[00:28:04] Andriana: But with retirement villages, they're governed by an act and it must have a disclosure. So you have a contract of sale [00:28:10] that sells the actual property if someone owns it, but then you have the agreement with the retirement village, and that is the more important agreement. Of course the contractor sale is [00:28:20] important, but that's quite standard.

[00:28:21] Andriana: So if you go to your local lawyer who does transactions conveyancing, they'll, they'll say that and they'll understand that. But it's the disclosure document and the retirement village living [00:28:30] agreement, which is super important. And what you've gotta make sure is in there is the disclosure of your entry fee, the fees of who gets the capital growth when you can [00:28:40] sell.

[00:28:40] Andriana: Do you have to invest in like, One of the conditions could be that if you go to sell, you have to refresh the whole, like out of your own pocket, refresh the building. [00:28:50] So that's an additional expense that people don't account for or states don't account for. how much percentage do you lose if you sell your reoccurring fees?

[00:28:58] Andriana: What does it cover? Is it a [00:29:00] strata complex and you have to pay council strata utilities on top of that? Does it include cleaning? Does it include maintenance? Because if it doesn't, and then the rules say you must have X, [00:29:10] Y, and Z done, you have to pay for that. So these are all things that have to be disclosed and a lot of people.

[00:29:15] Andriana: Disregard the disclosure document. The other thing people don't look [00:29:20] at is the actual rules for the complex. It's like a strata. If you live in a strata, you've got strata rules. The retirement villagers have exactly the same thing. really common [00:29:30] one is I'm gonna have my daughter who lives in Queensland.

[00:29:32] Andriana: I'm going, I live in Sydney. My daughter's gonna come down. She comes down for three to four months. Tam, she always comes and stays with [00:29:40] me, but a retirement village might not permit that. And they say you only allowed a guest up to 50 nights or 150 nights, and they will enforce it. They have to enforce it because [00:29:50] your community will not appreciate it.

[00:29:52] Andriana: How many cars you can have, what carvan you can park, what, what can you do? how long can it be vacant for? IEI might go and see my [00:30:00] daughter in Queensland and I leave it vacant for three months and they say, you can't do that. So these are all things that are in the disclosure document. It has to suit your potential lifestyle, and a lot [00:30:10] of people disregard it and a lot of lawyers don't value it to say to the client, does this suit your life?

[00:30:16] Andriana: What you're looking, your lifestyle, what you're looking to do? and it's really the legal [00:30:20] implications of the entry and the exit. The is the most important, if I'm being honest. And it's all in there and people do not look at it.

[00:30:27] CB: obviously there's a lot of challenges around retirement [00:30:30] living and, you know, a lack of options. You know, we're war behind the rest of the world, et cetera. But, you know, when you are getting this, I don't want to go down that option. There's not enough, you know, and [00:30:40] I don't wanna go into aged care 'cause I'm not at that level yet and there's long waiting list and, but I don't wanna be in his home anymore because it's, I'm lonely and it's too much to maintain.

[00:30:49] CB: But if they've got, [00:30:50] as soon as they've got one child, it's okay. Right? But as soon as you've got two kids or three or four like it surely then it starts to getting even harder and harder, right? Because [00:31:00] they've all got different levels of success and financial wealth and some have got stable marriages and some have got rocky ones and some, you know, feel like they see mom and mom more than [00:31:10] others.

[00:31:10] CB: And is it really hard like to start to advise them on. you know, getting everyone around the table and thinking about this, emotion, like not that emotionally because you know, there's just [00:31:20] so much at stake and you know, if you think about the price of Sydney going up, right? Mom or dad's, you know, assets probably what they're sort of banking on to help them retire, help 'em pay off their [00:31:30] mortgage, and, they kind of want them to stay in the property as well because they know that it's a good asset for the next five, 10 years.

[00:31:35] CB: So how do you sort of handle that? Like how do you get that?

[00:31:39] Andriana: This is gonna be a [00:31:40] cop out answer, but I wanna talk this through real thoroughly. It's not for me to tell them what to do, it's for me to tell them what the risk of what they're proposing and the different options. And I say that [00:31:50] because the other thing that we are playing, and if this episode is not enough to talk about this, but I'm going to be really frank.

[00:31:56] Andriana: There's a lot of elderly abuse, financial abuse. And so we've [00:32:00] also at the same time, gotta assess and it's really unfair because you're meeting, sometimes you're meeting these clients, you've had them forever, and you know there's family Dominics and sometime and still then you don't know [00:32:10] everything.

[00:32:10] Andriana: You'd hope you do, but you don't. Or you're meeting these clients for the first time. So quickly I've got a size up. Is there influence happening here? Do they see that? You know, um.They're gonna get the [00:32:20] main asset and they're defeating what the parents really want or convincing. I say parents, but the elderly, elderly person, what they really want, there's so much happening in that [00:32:30] initial consultation for us that we have to check, um, their mental capacity to be making this decision so it doesn't get challenged later on, which is where I think you are heading.

[00:32:38] Andriana: So, I don't sit [00:32:40] there and say, this is what I think you should do. I think I, what I say is, what's the five family dynamic? What are you trying to achieve? And what is best suited, and have you spoken to all the family about this? [00:32:50] And if not, why not? Because sometimes you can't. Some people say, I don't wanna speak to my daughter.

[00:32:54] Andriana: Her husband's very controlling. Sorry, I'm being a little bit, you know, but my husband's very controlling. And he'll, he'll, [00:33:00] you know, it will start a fight between my two daughters. So I don't wanna have that conversation. And you, it's not for you to say you must, but it's absolutely saying, well then you're delaying a, an argument down the [00:33:10] track.

[00:33:10] Andriana: So how do we rectify this? How do, do you want to be fair? Some people say, I do not want to provide equally to my three children. One has always been there for me, always [00:33:20] caring. So they should get 50% of the asset pool and this is how I want to do it. the other one is protecting assets because one daughter, has a husband, they think they're gonna divorce and I don't want, you need [00:33:30] to claim it. So, you know, they start to preempt what they think their children's, you know, marriages or relationships are going to be and how do I protect that? So I'm going to put it in the [00:33:40] other child's name and, and she'll take care of it.

[00:33:42] Andriana: And I sit there and go, that doesn't happen. 'cause there's no legal obligation for that to happen. But there's a lot.

[00:33:46] CB: marriage

[00:33:47] Andriana: Yeah, that's right. And you're piercing a lot of the [00:33:50] challenging people about trusting their children. So it can be a robust conversation. The problem is you are usually getting them when they're quite frail or when they're, when they're quite [00:34:00] desperate, as you said about retirement, is that they think of it at the last minute, the other, but what usually happens is.

[00:34:06] Andriana: Someone can't live on their own anymore or doesn't want to, or wants to liquidate [00:34:10] the asset a lot more is about the elderly selling up rather than the young couple moving in. I find the young couple moving in, [00:34:20] nobody can hardly come and see a lawyer unless they're gonna put a big financial contribution in and say, well, we wanna be protected.

[00:34:26] Andriana: That's happens every now and then when we see [00:34:30] them. It's usually when the elderly are selling. To gift or give a contribution to their children's current asset, which what usually happens is [00:34:40] they've got a $500,000 mortgage. Well, I'm gonna sell my house. I'm gonna pay off their mortgage. They're gonna build me a Gran flat.

[00:34:47] Andriana: I'm gonna put a little bit more. And they say, but [00:34:50] I don't wanna be on the title because you know, they're help letting me live there, but I don't want them to be able to kick me out. That is more often the conversations we're having at the [00:35:00] moment.

[00:35:00] Veronica: And how doable is that in that format? Right. You know?

[00:35:04] Andriana: so it's, it, there's, there's agreements that we've, so there's a couple of reasons why these agreements have formulated, they've [00:35:10] evolved over time. These binding financial agreements. People think of that usually for. Separation and parent, but it's not. There's also between, it's about talking about how we bound in [00:35:20] relation to our financial assets.

[00:35:22] Andriana: So also need that agreement for Centrelink. That's why this agreement has been formatted. I'll get to that in a second out for, but let's go back to what happens. [00:35:30] So they come in and they say, I'm gonna move in with my child. we're gonna renovate the property and build a whole top floor that's gonna cost.

[00:35:37] Andriana: I'm sorry if I'm insulting, but [00:35:40] $300,000, but I'm also gonna, um, give them five. I know that's why I said I'm insulting, but, you know, $500,000 towards this, which leaves me still a million dollars as I've sold my house for [00:35:50] 1.8. I also wanna keep my pension, always get that. If they've got the pension and I sit there and say, have you done your figures?

[00:35:56] Andriana: Is it better to have this and live on interest? People are not [00:36:00] interested. They want the pension because they want all the benefits with it, not just the cash, the income rather. So we work out a scenario of what does that look like? No one wants to go on title [00:36:10] because we all have stamp duty pay. The minute you touch the title.

[00:36:14] Andriana: You have to pay stamp duty. So they said, no, no, I don't wanna go on title. I just want something that protects me. So we do what's called a [00:36:20] binding financial agreement with a right. A life estate, which says basically for whilst that person's living, you as the owner can never kick them out [00:36:30] other than for certain triggers.

[00:36:31] Andriana: Because what people don't think past is what happens if I then do need full care. What happens if I have a heart attack and I need a full-time [00:36:40] nurse. I need to be in hospital, or I've gotta be moved into a full-time care. Who pays for that? How do I then get my money back out?

[00:36:46] Andriana: So these are all the things that we would challenge. So when you said, [00:36:50] what do we advise people, we talk more that language of, they've usually got a scenario what they want. And we say, well, what happens when this happens? Who's maintaining the property? [00:37:00] What happens when you die? Did you expect some money to come back into your estate?

[00:37:03] Andriana: 'cause that's not gonna happen for your other daughter or other son. So these are all the triggers and [00:37:10] questions we ask, but usually what we land with. It's a very simple scenario with a lot of causes in the agreement, which is a binding financial agreement with a right to put a [00:37:20] kbit on for a life estate.

[00:37:21] Andriana: Then we have the client, the elderly client has to give a copy of that to Centrelink so they can keep their pension and be under the threshold. Now, I didn't give [00:37:30] you the threshold. The threshold depends on if you are, so you no longer own a house, but you've got a right to live with your children and you're a couple.

[00:37:37] Andriana: I am, I'm looking over here 'cause I know the figures [00:37:40] just changed in September. It's about 740,000 you can have in the bank. Up to a million dollars. You can have part pension up to about just over a million, but after [00:37:50] that, you lose your pension. So a lot of people have to think about, what am I gonna sell my house for?

[00:37:54] Andriana: How much am I gonna contribute legitimately? 'cause you've gotta get, valuations. You've gotta prove [00:38:00] that you've paid that to have a building built on the property or renovations. And then you've gotta show Centrelink all of this to keep your pension.

[00:38:08] Veronica: So there's a real [00:38:10] process, and I'm imagine if they get it outta order or they don't do something, they could end up losing their pension

[00:38:15] Veronica: or. had people sell. They've done what they've done given their kids the money have. [00:38:20] A million dollars and then they get a knock on the door, as I say, and they say, you're losing your pension. Or say 1.5 million, but why am I losing my pension? I don't have a house. You're over the threshold. [00:38:30] I don't think about it.

[00:38:31] Andriana: It is now becoming a little bit, people are starting to become a little bit more educated on it, but there's been so many and to reverse it is hard. The one thing I do wanna say though is [00:38:40] if. early couple is downsizing and hasn't really made a decision and wants to move in for a period of time.

[00:38:45] Andriana: and they sell their house for $2 million. They've got two up to two years to keep their full [00:38:50] pension, to find another house. As long as they keep the criteria of the government and they're actively looking, they're not doing it to deceit the, you know, deceit government and they've obviously gotta go through a couple of [00:39:00] hurdles to keep their pension.

[00:39:01] Andriana: But you do have two years to make a a good decision.

[00:39:04] Veronica: So they gift the grandkids or, or the kids? You know, some [00:39:10] money is there tax payable on that?

[00:39:11] Andriana: No, if you receive a gift, it's a gift, but this is where it gets interesting. So they say, oh, to get under the threshold, I'm going to gift. My kids [00:39:20] or a hundred thousand dollars each, but I wanna keep my pension. I say that, well, that's not gonna happen because the government still sees it as in you've got the a hundred thousand dollars in your hand, you can only have up to [00:39:30] a certain amount.

[00:39:31] Andriana: I think it's only as little as $5,000 a year to gift and so if I gave all my money away, the government says, you should have kept that to live. We're not giving you the [00:39:40] pension. We're gonna take it away from you. you've got, and then after five years, they consider that that money is gone. Um, if it was a hundred thousand or whatever it was.

[00:39:48] Andriana: So you really have to [00:39:50] think about gifting and, being left with no income if you've over gifted, as I call it.

[00:39:56] CB: So let's say the scenario there, the 80 year year [00:40:00] old who's still feeling fit and healthy but really doesn't wanna maintain this house and maybe they lost their partner and you know, that it's scary. And my nana was in this situation, [00:40:10] so I'm sort of like reflecting on that. house prices are what they are, you know, they bought their house for a hundred thousand or 200,000 and you know, there was a very modest home and now it's worth a few million dollars.

[00:40:19] CB: But if they [00:40:20] sell it and they've got no other assets, right? Like they didn't have super, et cetera like that. but as soon as they sell, they get two and a half million in the bank. Right? and they lose their pension. Right. And then they they've got nowhere to live.

[00:40:28] CB: So yeah, they go live with the [00:40:30] kids, and then the other kids are saying, well, what are you doing with that money? And put it in the bank. But you know, then they say, well give it to us now 'cause it's more available so is it easier just for the parent though, just to say, well.

[00:40:39] CB: Do [00:40:40] you know, I don't wanna deal with all that change. I know I don't like it, you know, I'm just gonna stay here. And, and do you think that this is one of the major challenges in our property market is because [00:40:50] there's no retirement live option selling. It's not really a good option. 'cause I'm just gonna lose my pension and it's gonna create all these challenges with the kids.

[00:40:56] CB: I'm just gonna stay here and as long as I can. And that's the [00:41:00] default option. Most, older age people will consider.

[00:41:03] Andriana: And there's no incentive from the government to sell. So yes, the answer is yes. I'm gonna be really honest with you. That's scenario where you [00:41:10] don't need to move. If they won't move, it's not even the financial side. It's also the, usually the person in that scenario who's eighties, probably lived there for a long [00:41:20] period of time and are, is really emotionally connected and to leave without a need.

[00:41:27] Andriana: other than a little bit of loneliness as you've, you know, [00:41:30] advised or isolation as they call it, will kill them. we'll probably put them into an earlier grave than they were probably, and, you know, you know, weren't ill because the emotional side [00:41:40] We'll play with their health.

[00:41:40] Andriana: I'm not, I'm not a doctor, but I'm just saying from experience, that sadness or depression that gets, that happens quite a lot with elderly people who move into retirement villages. [00:41:50] they think it's going to satisfy something, but the, the disconnection with something they've known for 40 years or 10, 20 years, or the family home, it's even just naming it, the [00:42:00] family home really does.

[00:42:01] Andriana: hurt them so they don't move unless they need to. and the need doesn't need to be health. Sometimes I need to help. My daughter just got divorced and [00:42:10] she's renting and I wanna help her. And so that's the need, you know.

[00:42:14] Veronica: You talked earlier about like, um, if you get to the point where you in, you have a high care need, you've [00:42:20] gotta go into a nursing home. You, you don't get to be picky because there's a waiting list and I know, uh, there's been. Many news reports around the hospital, beds being filled of people because they, [00:42:30] there's no space for them, a nursing home. but. We also have talked about the fact that people delay these decisions because for lots of reasons among those, the emotional ones you're just talking [00:42:40] about. But if you do do it earlier, you do have more options. you are able to be more picky. You can sort of do your research around which retirement village you might wanna be in.

[00:42:49] Veronica: [00:42:50] Also, you could potentially downsize into an apartment, a strata apartment without having and stay. Outside of the world of retirement living. But if you buy well enough, you can [00:43:00] still get at home care and the actual building can, can be amenable to somebody who's, you know, got mobility challenges, all those sorts of things close to [00:43:10] existing networks with more, apartments being built in transport hubs and all the rest of it, you know, in very convenient locations.

[00:43:15] Veronica: So. It's sort of interesting that, people are still [00:43:20] delaying these decisions when really they'd have much better options and potentially be a lot happier if they did move earlier. But back to your sort of granny flat [00:43:30] solution, you know, so I guess people throw their hands up and they go, I know let's just sort of combine resources and build a granny flat out the back of my, my kids' place for argument's sake. What are [00:43:40] some of the, biggest, I guess, legal and legal traps and financial traps for that matter, that families walking into that without realizing, and we've talked about some of them, but [00:43:50] specifically, you know, they're gonna fundamentally alter their home. and you know, what happens when mom does. Die or go into a nursing home or what [00:44:00] happens, you know, does one of the siblings wanna move in? You know, someone gets divorced and suddenly got your brother-in-law living there. I mean, you know, I mean, these are things, right, that would, if mom has funded it, you [00:44:10] know, there's a sense of ownership for the rest of the family.

[00:44:12] Veronica: I mean, it's, it's complex. Right. So what's sort of agreements would people, or what, what would you be thinking about for those, those types of

[00:44:19] Veronica: [00:44:20] scenarios?

[00:44:20] Andriana: exactly what you ha all those questions you asked and more so it depends on what they're thinking will happen to the title. First, I would say [00:44:30] every 10 meetings or scenarios I have with this. Eight or nine do not want to be on the title. They don't wanna pay to be added to the children's title.

[00:44:38] Andriana: and then the, I did [00:44:40] didn't say this at the beginning of this, um, podcast, but also the laws around how easy it is to build Granny flats. it has actually driven the granny flat, era, as I call [00:44:50] it, in these smaller, uh, lots as well. So back to the granny flat one, we ask straight away, how is this going to be owned?

[00:44:57] Andriana: Most times they say, oh, I don't wanna go on [00:45:00] title. I just want them to use the money and enter a building contract to build the granny flat. So there's

[00:45:04] Veronica: then does that in, is that taken as a gift?

[00:45:06] Andriana: No. No. So when you, no, that's not a [00:45:10] gift. At this stage, it's not a gift, but if they're not on title, it will become the, the building, the improvement, which is the granny flat, will [00:45:20] be owned by the title owner, which is the child. But what you will have, whilst the elderly person is alive, is a binding financial agreement that gives them a right to live there that tells [00:45:30] 'em what they have to.

[00:45:31] Andriana: Don't have to pay. So if they've contributed to the build and maybe a little bit more for maintenance and things like that, they don't pay rates, they don't pay anything like that. it's not a [00:45:40] gift at that stage, but when that person passes, it becomes part of the title and the other. If there's any [00:45:50] other children of the estate, that's not an asset that they can claim under the estate, and that's where all the challenges and arguments come in.

[00:45:58] Andriana: Well, mum [00:46:00] paid for that Granny flat, so why isn't the half a million dollars back in the estate? Well, no, because we allowed her to do that and there was becoming part of our estate. So what we. Do at the same [00:46:10] time is we challenge the person who's moving in with their children, as in, do you have any leftover funds?

[00:46:17] Andriana: What's your intentions with the leftover funds? [00:46:20] Um. Do you understand that this might end up being deemed an inequitable contribution because cash might not grow as fast as the asset as well, and you have to be prepared that [00:46:30] and be able to live with that. But the estate cannot challenge the granny flat.

[00:46:34] Andriana: That's not in your name, the one that passed away. It's in the child's name and it becomes the [00:46:40] child's asset on death.

[00:46:41] Veronica: So, okay,

[00:46:43] Veronica: so it's no.

[00:46:44] Andriana: a child's asset on build, but you can't remove the parent from living their under a life [00:46:50] estate, but it becomes theirs without any restrictions on death.

[00:46:53] Veronica: Right, so that means, yeah. So the estate then is smaller and could the [00:47:00] person that got the granny flat. Now is on their title now they own it unencumbered. could that person then contest the will that might only [00:47:10] leave the rest? Any surviving levy remaining assets to the other? Say two kids could that that person who's not getting any of the remaining asset, could they like feasibly contest the will [00:47:20] then?

[00:47:20] Andriana: so there's so many answers to that question. Part one, they do have a right, 'cause they're a child of the estate, of the, of the deceased. My apologies, they're have a right. So you've gotta have a [00:47:30] right to challenge beginning. That you've already been gifted something or given something for a purpose when they were alive.

[00:47:38] Andriana: You have to have a right to [00:47:40] challenge as a child, you have a right. You have to have a need. So a need means either were you dependent and were you living with your parent because you have. [00:47:50] Restrictions in being able to, work and you don't have income and your parent gave you, an income. This is an example and you would have a need.

[00:47:57] Andriana: But if you are financially stable and financially [00:48:00] quite wealthy, the court system will look at it as in, well, do you really have a need or you just. You know, try to be greedy, so forth. So there's elements you have to [00:48:10] satisfy. but if you're a child of the deceased and you can satisfy those elements, it doesn't matter that you got the granny flat because maybe we are thinking very small minded, but the estate might be worth a [00:48:20] lot more than what the granny flat.

[00:48:21] Andriana: The granny flat was half a million. The rest of the money in the bank is 4 million. They were living off the interest and the two kids are getting $2 million each [00:48:30] while you got, mom looked after her and you know, the half a million dollar grant's now worth 700. I think that's a very rare scenario, but could be the flip of it as well.

[00:48:39] Andriana: So [00:48:40] my answer is you probably could, but you have to satisfy the elements. yeah, state law is another conversation.

[00:48:46] Veronica: uh, we're gonna get you back at some point, Adriana, 'cause we can see [00:48:50] how many tentacles this conversation, um, has. And, and there's a lot here that is very, very relevant to property. And we clearly have not covered enough of this in, [00:49:00] we're nearly nine years, are we nine years or eight years?

[00:49:03] Veronica: Anyway, we're. We've been doing this for a long time. this has been a really fantastic chat. To wrap it up. We love to have a property, [00:49:10] Dumbo. So an example of a story that we can all learn from.

[00:49:14] Veronica: Do you have an

[00:49:15] Andriana: I have a real life story. This is, um, very much, it's a good segue what we just finished [00:49:20] talking about. So the mother who went and lived, got the granny flat built and went and lived with her. Daughter and son and has a life [00:49:30] estate and put in, let's say half a million dollars and, and then lives with her daughter and son and thinks that when she dies it's going to go to her [00:49:40] daughter and son-in-law, sorry son-in-law.

[00:49:41] Andriana: And they've got, children, she's got her grandchildren and she thinks everything's fine. Unfortunately, her daughter passes away before her and she's now [00:49:50] left living with son-in-law who has repartnered. And bought in someone into the estate that she doesn't have ownership, and the only trigger under [00:50:00] the agreement is if she has to get full care and she can get money out of it.

[00:50:04] Andriana: Otherwise, once she, she only has a life estate, they never thought that the daughter would pass at a young age, [00:50:10] and she's now left. An asset to her son-in-law, which is fine, but who's now repartnered up? That is a scenario a lot of people have [00:50:20] not thought about that. I have a client it's currently happening to.

[00:50:23] Veronica: um, it's a sad dumbo.

[00:50:24] Veronica: It is

[00:50:24] Andriana: very sad, Dumbo, but it actually is. That's a thought a lot of people don't think [00:50:30] about. They automatic issue. It's going to their blood.

[00:50:33] Veronica: You wouldn't. Adriana, this has been such a good chat. This is something that we really are. [00:50:40] Digging a bit deeper into this year, but look, we really appreciate your time.

[00:50:43] Veronica: We are gonna get you back at some future point, to talk about more of this stuff. So very much appreciate that.

[00:50:49] Andriana: [00:50:50] Thanks guys.

[00:50:51] CB: Thanks for coming on. Awesome chat.

[00:50:52] Veronica Morgan: If you have a question that you'd like us to answer in an upcoming q and a episode, you can send us a voicemail or written question via the [00:51:00] website. The elephant in the room.com au. Or you can email us directly at questions at the elephant in the room.com

[00:51:08] Veronica Morgan: au.

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