1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:11,290 Claire Bown: Hello and welcome to The Art Engager podcast with me, Claire Bown. 2 00:00:11,310 --> 00:00:15,450 I'm here to share techniques and tools to help you engage with your audience 3 00:00:15,510 --> 00:00:18,960 and bring art objects and ideas to life. 4 00:00:20,130 --> 00:00:21,720 So let's dive into this week's show. 5 00:00:25,905 --> 00:00:29,655 Hello, and welcome to a new episode of The Art Engager. 6 00:00:30,105 --> 00:00:34,845 I'm Claire Bown, and today I'm speaking with Menka Sanghvi, a researcher, 7 00:00:34,935 --> 00:00:39,885 writer, and guide who specializes in one of our most precious resources. 8 00:00:40,185 --> 00:00:40,845 Attention. 9 00:00:41,175 --> 00:00:43,245 One quick thing before we start. 10 00:00:43,665 --> 00:00:49,150 I started this podcast in 2021 thinking I'd make perhaps just 25 11 00:00:49,510 --> 00:00:53,269 episodes, and here we are at over 150. 12 00:00:54,239 --> 00:01:00,269 Creating each episode is mainly a solo endeavor, and your support helps cover 13 00:01:00,269 --> 00:01:05,399 hosting, editing costs, research, and interview time, and it helps to keep 14 00:01:05,399 --> 00:01:07,830 the podcast ad free for everyone. 15 00:01:08,505 --> 00:01:12,285 If you found this podcast helpful and would like to support what 16 00:01:12,285 --> 00:01:16,365 I do, you can become a friend of The Art Engager on Patreon. 17 00:01:16,575 --> 00:01:20,535 There are different tiers to choose from with monthly support starting from 18 00:01:20,535 --> 00:01:22,905 less than the price of a cup of coffee. 19 00:01:23,535 --> 00:01:24,045 Thank you. 20 00:01:26,205 --> 00:01:28,664 Now let me introduce today's guest. 21 00:01:29,145 --> 00:01:33,255 Menka Sovi is the founder of just looking a global community 22 00:01:33,255 --> 00:01:37,935 project, celebrating slowness and curiosity in how we see the world. 23 00:01:38,759 --> 00:01:43,229 With a background that spans physics, social change, and mindfulness. 24 00:01:43,350 --> 00:01:47,820 Menka brings a unique multidisciplinary perspective to the question of 25 00:01:47,820 --> 00:01:53,369 attention, how we use it, how we lose it, and how we can reclaim it. 26 00:01:54,089 --> 00:01:58,740 Menka is the co-author of your Best Digital Life and the founder of Just 27 00:01:58,740 --> 00:02:02,580 Looking a global Community project that encourages people to stay 28 00:02:02,580 --> 00:02:04,830 curious about the world around them. 29 00:02:05,700 --> 00:02:10,080 Drawing on over two decades of experience in behavioral change design 30 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:15,690 and wellbeing science Mecca's work invites us to slow down, notice more, 31 00:02:15,930 --> 00:02:20,040 and reflect on how we relate to both the digital and physical worlds. 32 00:02:21,885 --> 00:02:26,685 In today's conversation, we explore why focusing on ordinary moments matters, 33 00:02:27,105 --> 00:02:32,475 the science behind attentional filters and what we unconsciously miss, and the 34 00:02:32,475 --> 00:02:37,725 social dimension of noticing how looking together changes what individuals see. 35 00:02:38,355 --> 00:02:44,145 We discuss algorithmic seeing versus intentional looking, practical strategies 36 00:02:44,234 --> 00:02:47,385 for rewilding our attention and why. 37 00:02:47,385 --> 00:02:51,915 Menka insists that slowing down isn't about duration, but attitude. 38 00:02:52,845 --> 00:02:55,125 This episode is essential listening. 39 00:02:55,305 --> 00:02:59,745 If you work in museums and want to help visitors engage more deeply with what 40 00:02:59,745 --> 00:03:04,425 they're seeing, if you're interested in slow looking practices or if you're simply 41 00:03:04,425 --> 00:03:10,575 curious about reclaiming your attention in our technology saturated world, enjoy. 42 00:03:12,590 --> 00:03:15,585 Hi Menka and welcome to The Art Engager Podcast. 43 00:03:16,005 --> 00:03:16,635 Hi, Claire. 44 00:03:16,635 --> 00:03:17,475 Nice to be here. 45 00:03:18,225 --> 00:03:20,515 So could you tell us who you are and what you do? 46 00:03:21,285 --> 00:03:21,765 Menka Sanghvi: Sure. 47 00:03:21,825 --> 00:03:25,995 I am a researcher, writer, and guide. 48 00:03:26,265 --> 00:03:30,795 I specialize in the subject of attention, and I come to this from a scientific, 49 00:03:31,155 --> 00:03:33,375 cultural, and a creative perspective. 50 00:03:34,185 --> 00:03:37,785 I am also the founder of a global community project called Just Looking, 51 00:03:38,145 --> 00:03:42,285 which is dedicated to slowness and curiosity in how we look at the world. 52 00:03:43,305 --> 00:03:47,625 I am really concerned about how technology is impacting our minds and our attention, 53 00:03:47,955 --> 00:03:52,905 which is why I co-authored a book all about it called Your Best Digital Life. 54 00:03:53,055 --> 00:03:57,435 It came out a few months ago, and yeah, outside of that, I'm also a trustee and 55 00:03:57,435 --> 00:04:01,965 champion advisor to several innovative organizations in the areas of mindfulness 56 00:04:01,965 --> 00:04:05,445 and wellbeing, and so I end up working with a wide range of people from 57 00:04:05,445 --> 00:04:07,275 business leaders and politicians to. 58 00:04:07,799 --> 00:04:10,380 Musicians a few weeks ago and children too. 59 00:04:10,590 --> 00:04:11,130 Claire Bown: Amazing. 60 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,340 Um, your work caught my attention quite a few years ago now. 61 00:04:14,340 --> 00:04:17,730 I think we've been emailing on and off for a number of years, but I'd 62 00:04:17,730 --> 00:04:22,320 love to hear the story about how you ended up with this very varied 63 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,570 portfolio career that you seem to have. 64 00:04:24,900 --> 00:04:25,409 Menka Sanghvi: Yeah, sure. 65 00:04:25,409 --> 00:04:27,000 And that's a nice way of putting it. 66 00:04:27,300 --> 00:04:33,555 My background is fairly multidisciplinary, but in a nutshell, I. Started off working 67 00:04:33,615 --> 00:04:41,445 in social change and climate change, the external environmental social problems of 68 00:04:41,445 --> 00:04:48,795 the world, and then became more and more fascinated with behavioral change and how. 69 00:04:49,335 --> 00:04:54,495 Environments influence by design, our behavior, and how 70 00:04:54,495 --> 00:04:55,725 we can regain control over it. 71 00:04:55,995 --> 00:05:00,645 Over that, and then I moved progressively into the world of interchange. 72 00:05:00,645 --> 00:05:05,685 So mindfulness and wellbeing, and I guess attention is that. 73 00:05:06,330 --> 00:05:08,370 Is that touchstone between all of it. 74 00:05:08,849 --> 00:05:12,030 At one point I just realized that everything starts with 75 00:05:12,030 --> 00:05:15,420 attention and perception and how you see yourself in the world. 76 00:05:15,900 --> 00:05:19,380 What we attend to shapes, our feelings, our ideas, beliefs, 77 00:05:19,409 --> 00:05:21,360 actions, habits, basically everything. 78 00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:22,469 Claire Bown: I love that. 79 00:05:22,469 --> 00:05:25,215 And you are just looking now, I don't know whether to call 80 00:05:25,215 --> 00:05:27,240 it a project or a community. 81 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:31,020 I'm sure you have a way of describing it, but you started. 82 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:37,950 2017. I think I discovered it pretty soon afterwards with the community. 83 00:05:37,950 --> 00:05:41,070 I think maybe you are trying to bring people together with similar 84 00:05:41,070 --> 00:05:44,969 interests, thinking about how we explore the world, how we look at the 85 00:05:44,969 --> 00:05:47,370 world, curiosities involved there. 86 00:05:47,370 --> 00:05:50,700 Perhaps you could explain in a nutshell what just looking is. 87 00:05:51,755 --> 00:05:54,719 Menka Sanghvi: Yeah, I describe it usually as a kind of a community 88 00:05:54,719 --> 00:05:56,010 led or community powered. 89 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:01,890 Project celebrating slowness and curiosity, and I can 90 00:06:01,890 --> 00:06:02,910 tell you how it started. 91 00:06:02,910 --> 00:06:07,530 Might explain it a bit more clearly, which is I was experiencing, I guess 92 00:06:07,530 --> 00:06:11,610 maybe like a numbness, overwhelmed by the news and looking at screens all the time. 93 00:06:11,610 --> 00:06:15,420 And I was working in humanitarian emergency response at the time. 94 00:06:15,450 --> 00:06:16,380 It's pretty intense. 95 00:06:16,890 --> 00:06:19,320 And at the same time I had a meditation practice. 96 00:06:19,350 --> 00:06:22,409 I have a meditation practice, which is it just focused on curiosity. 97 00:06:23,219 --> 00:06:25,679 And I just wanted to expand that to the rest of my day. 98 00:06:25,679 --> 00:06:28,140 I already had a passion for photography, so I thought that 99 00:06:28,140 --> 00:06:29,400 would be a good place to start. 100 00:06:30,150 --> 00:06:33,599 So I started to do these photography walks and my idea was to host a 101 00:06:33,599 --> 00:06:37,530 series of playful kinda photo walks around the city of London where I 102 00:06:37,530 --> 00:06:42,275 live, and we'd meet in places that are not exactly well known for photo. 103 00:06:43,260 --> 00:06:47,820 So like for example, I remember one of the first ones we did at rush hour focusing on 104 00:06:47,820 --> 00:06:51,840 the beauty of strangers in the financial district with everyone walking at high 105 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:54,030 speed and looking very stressed and tired. 106 00:06:54,809 --> 00:06:57,690 And then on another walk on a Sunday morning, we were looking at 107 00:06:57,690 --> 00:07:00,390 the play of light in a cemetery. 108 00:07:00,719 --> 00:07:05,070 Another time we were walking across a bridge, but the whole one hour 109 00:07:05,070 --> 00:07:08,549 walk was just, it was a small bridge, like a hundred meters the whole time. 110 00:07:08,549 --> 00:07:09,719 We were just on that one bridge. 111 00:07:10,635 --> 00:07:14,055 And we still do these walks, but the project has evolved in several ways. 112 00:07:14,565 --> 00:07:19,995 So I have a love hate relationship with social media, but I do curate and that's 113 00:07:19,995 --> 00:07:22,125 guess how you must have found the project. 114 00:07:22,125 --> 00:07:26,865 I curate photography on Instagram and Blue Sky as well now purely with the 115 00:07:26,865 --> 00:07:31,965 intention of disrupting people's feeds with moments of alertness and presence. 116 00:07:32,325 --> 00:07:35,445 So that's a kind of key part of the project, but there's also 117 00:07:35,445 --> 00:07:37,695 a monthly community newsletter and there's a different. 118 00:07:37,755 --> 00:07:41,505 A theme about looking about attention each time. 119 00:07:41,745 --> 00:07:45,855 So last month was about artificial intelligence and being hungry for 120 00:07:45,855 --> 00:07:48,825 the human, which I think is more than the flavor of the month. 121 00:07:48,825 --> 00:07:50,295 So I think there's gonna be more of that. 122 00:07:50,475 --> 00:07:54,405 But looking ahead, I want it to be a platform for creating more tools and 123 00:07:54,405 --> 00:07:59,565 books, and the idea is to recreate the experience of the photo walk 124 00:08:00,105 --> 00:08:01,815 of the conversations that happen. 125 00:08:02,295 --> 00:08:05,985 In between and after the walk, but in a way that people can do 126 00:08:05,985 --> 00:08:09,105 it for themselves or with their family or with their communities. 127 00:08:09,945 --> 00:08:12,945 So yeah, if anyone listening is interested in the project, I would 128 00:08:13,005 --> 00:08:14,445 recommend signing up for the newsletter. 129 00:08:14,895 --> 00:08:16,305 It's a lot of fun for me to write. 130 00:08:16,365 --> 00:08:20,195 It's a labor of love and hopefully inspiring for others to read too. 131 00:08:21,105 --> 00:08:22,185 Claire Bown: I love your newsletter. 132 00:08:22,245 --> 00:08:26,145 I really look forward to it landing in my inbox, and I can tell you 133 00:08:26,145 --> 00:08:27,885 enjoy putting it together too. 134 00:08:27,885 --> 00:08:31,755 As from one newsletter writer to another, you can see the care and 135 00:08:31,755 --> 00:08:33,284 attention that goes into it and. 136 00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:36,630 Thinking about just looking itself. 137 00:08:36,689 --> 00:08:39,689 When I was looking around on your website and looking at some of the 138 00:08:39,689 --> 00:08:43,049 things you've written about it and talk about it being the slow, mindful 139 00:08:43,049 --> 00:08:47,819 and creative observation of ordinary moments, and I think it was those 140 00:08:47,819 --> 00:08:50,280 words, ordinary moments, stuck with me. 141 00:08:50,820 --> 00:08:55,860 I do a lot of work with slow looking, mainly in the museum, but we have a lot 142 00:08:55,860 --> 00:08:58,380 of crossover into everyday life as well. 143 00:08:58,380 --> 00:09:02,580 So quite often as museum educators, we are thinking about how we can 144 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,690 develop the practice first in ourselves before we then go and try 145 00:09:06,690 --> 00:09:09,060 and teach others to use it in a museum. 146 00:09:09,060 --> 00:09:14,010 So we might take slow looking into our everyday life and use it to 147 00:09:14,010 --> 00:09:17,640 pay attention to those ordinary moments or things we overlook. 148 00:09:18,155 --> 00:09:21,395 But I'd love to hear from you what drew you to focus on the 149 00:09:21,395 --> 00:09:23,915 everyday, these ordinary moments. 150 00:09:24,185 --> 00:09:26,375 Menka Sanghvi: Can I just respond to one thing you said about how we need to 151 00:09:26,375 --> 00:09:29,975 embody this slowness of looking ourselves before trying to share it with others? 152 00:09:30,334 --> 00:09:34,475 There's been a lot of research about teaching mindfulness, and one of the 153 00:09:34,475 --> 00:09:39,365 key insights has been that it's not effective unless the person doing 154 00:09:39,365 --> 00:09:41,824 the teaching practices themselves. 155 00:09:42,635 --> 00:09:44,975 So that's quite different from a lot of different subjects 156 00:09:45,214 --> 00:09:46,505 where it's less important. 157 00:09:47,339 --> 00:09:51,089 But yeah, so this particular study I'm thinking about was a long term 158 00:09:51,089 --> 00:09:56,310 study that was done at scale in schools, and one of the conclusions 159 00:09:56,310 --> 00:09:57,449 was it's not really working. 160 00:09:57,449 --> 00:10:00,990 And that was because the study itself required this kinda scaling 161 00:10:00,990 --> 00:10:03,479 up and recruiting of teachers that weren't necessarily into 162 00:10:03,479 --> 00:10:05,969 it and hadn't had much practice. 163 00:10:06,030 --> 00:10:07,410 So, makes a huge difference. 164 00:10:07,949 --> 00:10:10,890 But yeah, to answer your other question about ordinary moments. 165 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:11,640 Yeah. 166 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:12,959 Why ordinary moments? 167 00:10:13,170 --> 00:10:15,000 Well, the everyday is important to me because. 168 00:10:15,810 --> 00:10:16,800 That's where we live. 169 00:10:17,310 --> 00:10:17,730 Yes. 170 00:10:17,730 --> 00:10:23,010 Feeling connected, inspired and in awe is not just for special occasions 171 00:10:23,790 --> 00:10:27,930 when we make that big trip to see the waterfall or the pyramids or whatever. 172 00:10:28,170 --> 00:10:30,030 It's every day that we need to feel alive. 173 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,420 And so that's one of the reasons. 174 00:10:33,420 --> 00:10:37,500 But the other is that we have this kind of evolutionary negativity bias for the 175 00:10:37,500 --> 00:10:40,079 everyday, which helps us to survive. 176 00:10:40,110 --> 00:10:41,760 It's important to be able to see. 177 00:10:42,630 --> 00:10:46,500 Threats and danger and things that aren't quite good enough. 178 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,180 But this can be, to use that word, uh, used before quite numbing. 179 00:10:51,780 --> 00:10:54,420 And I think it's important to counter that with taking in the 180 00:10:54,420 --> 00:10:59,160 goodness to everyday wonders the taste of a peach at breakfast time. 181 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,785 The laughter of a child across the street, some rubbish on the floor that happens to. 182 00:11:04,545 --> 00:11:06,255 Looked like a ballerina dancing. 183 00:11:06,735 --> 00:11:10,755 It's feeling alive in the everyday by paying closer attention to those 184 00:11:10,755 --> 00:11:16,485 things that we would otherwise have kinda rushed past and linked to that, I 185 00:11:16,485 --> 00:11:18,795 think it is a sense of caring as well. 186 00:11:18,885 --> 00:11:22,695 So one of, one of my mantras is noticing is a first step to caring as 187 00:11:22,725 --> 00:11:24,705 a society we're currently experiencing. 188 00:11:25,515 --> 00:11:27,915 And what's being described as a epidemic of loneliness. 189 00:11:27,944 --> 00:11:31,725 We all live in our filter bubbles and, and we're so easily polarized 190 00:11:31,725 --> 00:11:33,105 as well as a result of that. 191 00:11:33,615 --> 00:11:39,345 But once we start noticing things in the everyday, we see the elderly neighbors, 192 00:11:39,675 --> 00:11:44,715 the immigrants running the local shop, the pigeons who share our streets. 193 00:11:44,985 --> 00:11:47,475 We feel connected to them, and we take them in. 194 00:11:47,475 --> 00:11:48,585 We care about them. 195 00:11:49,245 --> 00:11:52,155 It shifts us from this individualistic perspective too. 196 00:11:52,964 --> 00:11:54,045 Being part of something bigger. 197 00:11:54,584 --> 00:11:56,564 So I think that can happen every day. 198 00:11:56,805 --> 00:11:57,675 Claire Bown: I totally agree. 199 00:11:57,675 --> 00:12:02,145 And I think when we take those moments to notice on our own, certainly 200 00:12:02,145 --> 00:12:05,714 there's a shift there with the awe and the wonder that we can experience. 201 00:12:05,714 --> 00:12:06,765 We can feel more alive. 202 00:12:07,395 --> 00:12:11,535 But I also think when we have those moments of noticing together, 203 00:12:11,625 --> 00:12:13,125 so when we are doing this. 204 00:12:13,245 --> 00:12:17,145 Practice with other people, as we might do in the museum, but I've seen you 205 00:12:17,145 --> 00:12:19,455 do in workshops that you lead as well. 206 00:12:19,725 --> 00:12:24,855 There's something really special about discovering newness in the ordinary, 207 00:12:24,855 --> 00:12:30,135 in the everyday looking for things in familiar places with other people. 208 00:12:30,135 --> 00:12:33,495 There's a kind of social aspect to this connectedness as well. 209 00:12:34,395 --> 00:12:35,265 Menka Sanghvi: Yeah, definitely. 210 00:12:35,805 --> 00:12:36,855 I think that. 211 00:12:37,830 --> 00:12:39,630 Attention is a social practice. 212 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:43,890 We miss that part of it because it's like so intimate in our minds, isn't it? 213 00:12:43,980 --> 00:12:49,530 When you're a baby, how do you learn what to look at and someone points at something 214 00:12:49,530 --> 00:12:52,770 and says, look, and that's how we develop. 215 00:12:52,830 --> 00:12:57,090 Maybe we can talk a little bit about attentional filters, because this is 216 00:12:57,090 --> 00:12:59,070 where the social aspect comes in, so. 217 00:13:00,690 --> 00:13:02,940 The way attention works is through filters. 218 00:13:03,150 --> 00:13:08,490 If someone in a busy room calls your name, you're having a conversation 219 00:13:08,490 --> 00:13:13,830 with someone, there's like a hundred other things going on, but you will 220 00:13:13,830 --> 00:13:19,410 still hear that name being called out across the room because it's your name. 221 00:13:19,530 --> 00:13:23,490 So we have a priority that we place on certain information, right? 222 00:13:23,490 --> 00:13:24,450 That's how filters work. 223 00:13:24,450 --> 00:13:25,470 They filter out some things. 224 00:13:26,265 --> 00:13:29,025 And they allow us to notice some things. 225 00:13:29,415 --> 00:13:30,495 And it's not just names. 226 00:13:30,555 --> 00:13:33,824 There's lots of things that we've developed filters for. 227 00:13:34,334 --> 00:13:39,375 And as a result, there's things that we miss completely, like 228 00:13:39,435 --> 00:13:42,375 we can't even believe afterwards if someone shows us a video. 229 00:13:43,125 --> 00:13:44,535 Have you seen that guerrilla video? 230 00:13:44,540 --> 00:13:44,640 Yeah. 231 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:45,704 The, yeah. 232 00:13:45,704 --> 00:13:47,265 It's like, where was that guerrilla? 233 00:13:47,265 --> 00:13:48,285 It's just a shock, isn't it? 234 00:13:48,285 --> 00:13:51,194 And the first time you see it, and it's a phenomenon called 235 00:13:51,194 --> 00:13:52,694 in Inattentional blindness. 236 00:13:53,205 --> 00:13:54,555 You know, we are literally blind to it. 237 00:13:54,945 --> 00:13:58,275 And, and the funny thing is that the information is being processed somewhere. 238 00:13:58,335 --> 00:14:01,365 There was an experiment, which you were looking at one thing, but in the 239 00:14:01,365 --> 00:14:06,375 corner of the screen, in the corner of what you can see, things pop up. 240 00:14:07,005 --> 00:14:08,505 And if it's your name, you'll see it. 241 00:14:09,135 --> 00:14:11,175 If it's someone else's name, you won't see it. 242 00:14:11,444 --> 00:14:16,694 So like clearly both names yours and someone else's, that information 243 00:14:16,694 --> 00:14:18,255 was getting processed somewhere. 244 00:14:18,405 --> 00:14:21,045 But it's at quite a late stage of processing that the brain 245 00:14:21,045 --> 00:14:24,885 actually determines whether the stimulus ought to be noticed, 246 00:14:25,755 --> 00:14:29,025 like perceived consciously or not. 247 00:14:29,595 --> 00:14:34,425 And so to go back to the social thing, this is where people can easily nudge 248 00:14:34,454 --> 00:14:37,215 our filters 'cause we place a lot of importance on what other people say. 249 00:14:37,725 --> 00:14:38,175 So. 250 00:14:38,955 --> 00:14:43,275 If I'm running a mindful photography walk and I'm walking past a tree, 251 00:14:43,275 --> 00:14:45,824 but there's someone standing there looking at it intensely. 252 00:14:46,620 --> 00:14:49,800 I'm gonna stop and have a look at it too, even if they don't say anything. 253 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,970 But if I get chatting to that person and they say, yeah, actually, I, I 254 00:14:53,970 --> 00:14:57,030 love trees and I've been studying, this particular is a London Planet 255 00:14:57,060 --> 00:14:59,490 Tree and this one is 170 years old. 256 00:14:59,490 --> 00:15:02,790 And so it would've been here with World War I, world War ii, 257 00:15:02,850 --> 00:15:04,500 it would've survived the fires. 258 00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:08,790 And I, it's gonna shift how I see this tree, right. 259 00:15:09,435 --> 00:15:15,495 And it's because of that social importance and also the stories that we hear from 260 00:15:15,615 --> 00:15:20,415 others, that our attentional filters can be influenced quite easily, more easily 261 00:15:20,415 --> 00:15:21,645 than other ways of trying to do it. 262 00:15:22,125 --> 00:15:26,235 And so, yeah, that's why I love getting people together and 263 00:15:26,564 --> 00:15:27,354 pointing things out to you. 264 00:15:27,354 --> 00:15:30,495 It's just always fascinates me what people notice and things 265 00:15:30,495 --> 00:15:32,055 that I have completely missed. 266 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,740 Claire Bown: Yeah, and it shows you how many different 267 00:15:34,740 --> 00:15:36,540 literal perspectives there are. 268 00:15:36,540 --> 00:15:39,840 When you see, you have a group of say, 15 or so, people looking at the 269 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,440 same thing and they're all noticing slightly different things, perhaps 270 00:15:43,710 --> 00:15:47,310 based on where they're literally standing or just their own experiences, 271 00:15:47,310 --> 00:15:48,600 their own thoughts, their ideas. 272 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:49,380 They're bringing everything. 273 00:15:49,470 --> 00:15:53,460 To that looking, I think you say as well, that it needs practice that 274 00:15:53,460 --> 00:15:57,990 we need to rewild our attention, retrain our attention to be able 275 00:15:57,990 --> 00:16:03,030 to focus on the things that we're unconsciously filtering out. 276 00:16:03,030 --> 00:16:04,890 So can you talk a little bit about that? 277 00:16:04,890 --> 00:16:07,440 How do we strengthen our attention muscles? 278 00:16:07,860 --> 00:16:08,100 Menka Sanghvi: Yeah. 279 00:16:08,130 --> 00:16:13,860 I, I sometimes talk about like the freedom of attention and it's because attention 280 00:16:13,860 --> 00:16:17,520 is rooted in habitual tendencies, filters. 281 00:16:18,195 --> 00:16:22,455 And so it is a practice because we've practiced it so many times before. 282 00:16:22,545 --> 00:16:25,935 So we will notice the things that we've always noticed, and therefore 283 00:16:25,935 --> 00:16:31,275 we will feel and believe and act in ways that we've done before, 284 00:16:31,785 --> 00:16:34,545 and it keeps us in a repertoire. 285 00:16:35,295 --> 00:16:39,315 I talk about the repertoire of noticing, and I guess I, I like the 286 00:16:39,315 --> 00:16:40,995 word rewilding because it's just. 287 00:16:41,490 --> 00:16:44,820 If we start noticing things that we don't usually, that we normally 288 00:16:44,820 --> 00:16:48,300 walk past, then we're strengthening our ability to place our attention 289 00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:51,855 somewhere new and also to place our attention where we want it to be. 290 00:16:52,530 --> 00:16:55,320 Aligned to what matters to us in that moment. 291 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:56,400 And that's freedom. 292 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,410 Like that's the ultimate freedom, right? 293 00:16:58,410 --> 00:16:59,790 To shape our experience of life. 294 00:17:00,090 --> 00:17:04,830 Claire Bown: And you created a set of 60 cards to help us with 295 00:17:04,830 --> 00:17:06,690 these experiments in looking. 296 00:17:06,690 --> 00:17:09,270 So can you tell us a little bit about the cards? 297 00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:12,840 I have my own set here in front of me that I absolutely love. 298 00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:15,270 How can they give us this freedom of attention? 299 00:17:15,795 --> 00:17:21,255 Menka Sanghvi: So the 60 experiments in looking are a toolkit that I developed in 300 00:17:21,255 --> 00:17:23,895 collaboration with a designer called Anna. 301 00:17:24,375 --> 00:17:27,855 She had come to one of my photo walks and as usual, I had these prompts 302 00:17:27,855 --> 00:17:29,265 and cards that I was handing out. 303 00:17:29,265 --> 00:17:31,395 And at the end she was like, this needs to be a thing. 304 00:17:32,205 --> 00:17:35,475 We need to create this into something which people can do on their own, 305 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:36,855 or as I said, with their groups. 306 00:17:37,305 --> 00:17:41,085 And so they're, yeah, 60 beautifully printed cards, 307 00:17:41,085 --> 00:17:41,985 and they come in a black tin. 308 00:17:42,930 --> 00:17:46,770 And there are series of prompts, and the reason I describe them as experiments 309 00:17:46,770 --> 00:17:51,659 rather than prompts is because you don't have to believe them, like their 310 00:17:51,659 --> 00:17:55,409 ideas or stories or suggestions, but you don't have to believe in them. 311 00:17:55,409 --> 00:17:56,639 You just have to give them a go. 312 00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:02,070 Entertain that perspective and then see, evaluate what it does to your looking. 313 00:18:02,850 --> 00:18:04,950 So for example, one of the cards is called Sun. 314 00:18:05,460 --> 00:18:08,190 It reads there's a massive ball of fire in the sky. 315 00:18:08,820 --> 00:18:11,010 Its light has traveled more than eight minutes. 316 00:18:11,399 --> 00:18:12,419 To reach your eyes. 317 00:18:12,899 --> 00:18:17,550 I think that's an interesting example because you read that and then right 318 00:18:17,550 --> 00:18:21,870 now I'm looking out of the window and it makes me feel differently about the 319 00:18:21,870 --> 00:18:27,899 light, and I notice how it's bouncing off these orange leaves and making 320 00:18:27,899 --> 00:18:31,800 them look more orange in some places, a little bit more Bown than others. 321 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:37,260 And that's because of a story that's playing in my mind right now about. 322 00:18:37,844 --> 00:18:42,465 The light and that particular fact is happens to be a true story. 323 00:18:42,465 --> 00:18:46,155 It does take eight minutes and 20 seconds, I think, because it sounds 324 00:18:46,155 --> 00:18:49,935 like 150 million kilometers away, which probably doesn't mean anything. 325 00:18:49,935 --> 00:18:54,794 It's a number that's roughly three and a half, 4,000 times going round the earth. 326 00:18:55,485 --> 00:18:57,675 That's a long way away and. 327 00:18:58,275 --> 00:19:01,065 It makes you appreciate the light more to know that it's traveled all the way, 328 00:19:01,605 --> 00:19:02,115 Claire Bown: don't you think? 329 00:19:02,325 --> 00:19:03,045 Absolutely. 330 00:19:03,045 --> 00:19:05,745 And when it's not there as well, when we get to the darker months 331 00:19:05,745 --> 00:19:09,645 of the year, but I think there were quite a few that stood out to me. 332 00:19:09,645 --> 00:19:14,955 I've got the boring card on top because I also really love the idea of really 333 00:19:14,955 --> 00:19:19,365 paying attention to things that we would find uninteresting at first glance, and 334 00:19:19,365 --> 00:19:23,415 then going back to see if we can find something interesting them about them. 335 00:19:23,415 --> 00:19:23,805 So. 336 00:19:24,445 --> 00:19:27,804 I love, choose something uninteresting to observe. 337 00:19:27,804 --> 00:19:32,064 Notice how slippery this is, as new details begin to reveal themselves. 338 00:19:32,604 --> 00:19:36,024 And that's such a wonderful prompt because quite often when I'm 339 00:19:36,024 --> 00:19:39,685 working with groups in the museum as well, we have our favorites. 340 00:19:39,685 --> 00:19:45,145 We will work with certain objects or artworks that we are drawn to in some way. 341 00:19:45,145 --> 00:19:46,435 We can't explain why. 342 00:19:46,735 --> 00:19:51,955 Maybe it's knowledge or maybe it's an aesthetic or a technical or some kind of. 343 00:19:52,285 --> 00:19:57,895 Appeal from that particular object, and we will leave others by the wayside. 344 00:19:57,895 --> 00:20:02,995 So the fact that we can perhaps focus our attention on something that we might find 345 00:20:03,085 --> 00:20:08,485 uninteresting at first, and see perhaps what new details we can find, see if we 346 00:20:08,485 --> 00:20:10,285 can see it in a completely different way. 347 00:20:10,285 --> 00:20:12,175 So I absolutely love that one. 348 00:20:12,445 --> 00:20:15,175 Menka Sanghvi: The definition for boredom is really interesting. 349 00:20:15,865 --> 00:20:18,745 I mean, there's a lot of debate about it in psychology, but the 350 00:20:18,745 --> 00:20:20,510 growing consensus is that it's. 351 00:20:21,660 --> 00:20:26,580 An emotion of feeling unable to engage meaningfully in 352 00:20:26,580 --> 00:20:27,570 whatever it is you're doing. 353 00:20:28,350 --> 00:20:32,610 Like you want to be doing something meaningful and you wanna be engaged in 354 00:20:32,610 --> 00:20:34,260 that, but you're just not able to be. 355 00:20:34,770 --> 00:20:39,030 So it's interesting because the minute I give you that prompt, or the card gives 356 00:20:39,030 --> 00:20:42,155 you the prompt being bored, you are. 357 00:20:43,170 --> 00:20:46,740 Now meaningfully engaged in an exercise and unable to feel bored. 358 00:20:47,010 --> 00:20:50,190 And so it's always really funny when people do that and then they come 359 00:20:50,190 --> 00:20:51,360 back and say, that was really hard. 360 00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:54,960 Like I just, I was trying to be bored and just look at something that normally 361 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,860 would bore me, but I just found it really fascinating in these layers of detail 362 00:20:58,860 --> 00:21:03,165 or started reveal themselves and it's just so much fun to get that feedback. 363 00:21:03,735 --> 00:21:03,794 So 364 00:21:04,425 --> 00:21:07,995 Claire Bown: tell me how you kind of imagine people might use these cards. 365 00:21:08,024 --> 00:21:10,665 You do give a few tips for guidance. 366 00:21:10,665 --> 00:21:13,485 There are some rules that I thought were super interesting as well. 367 00:21:13,485 --> 00:21:17,449 The first rule being to slow down and what I loved. 368 00:21:18,210 --> 00:21:21,210 Was that you said slowing down doesn't always take more time. 369 00:21:21,210 --> 00:21:25,980 It is an attitude of not rushing to reach the end, and I think 370 00:21:25,980 --> 00:21:27,510 that's super interesting as well. 371 00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:30,690 I often think about slow looking and I get lots of questions from people 372 00:21:30,690 --> 00:21:32,520 saying, oh, it takes a lot of time. 373 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,520 And quite often it's about thinking about the process of looking and 374 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:40,290 it takes as long as it takes. 375 00:21:40,290 --> 00:21:43,380 It's not about the duration, it's about the process of. 376 00:21:43,889 --> 00:21:45,870 Finding more beyond the first glance. 377 00:21:45,870 --> 00:21:49,205 So can you talk a little bit about some of the rules behind the cards? 378 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:51,810 Menka Sanghvi: Yeah, and that's probably the most important 379 00:21:51,810 --> 00:21:52,830 one that you just picked out. 380 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,790 I think there's a feeling of never having enough time, isn't there? 381 00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:00,360 And so reminding people that it's just an attitude. 382 00:22:00,629 --> 00:22:04,919 'cause I don't know if you can tell, but I'm a physicist by background, but, so 383 00:22:04,919 --> 00:22:08,189 I, I studied physics at Cambridge and I've always had love for physics, but 384 00:22:08,370 --> 00:22:11,370 time literally is, you know, stretchy. 385 00:22:12,060 --> 00:22:15,149 And so a minute of looking at. 386 00:22:16,215 --> 00:22:20,145 A leaf or a painting can feel really different depending on 387 00:22:20,625 --> 00:22:22,095 the presence you bring to it. 388 00:22:22,574 --> 00:22:29,504 So if you give yourself permission to, to slow down and you just assume 389 00:22:29,504 --> 00:22:32,385 that there's gonna be something really interesting, I mean, it is 390 00:22:32,385 --> 00:22:36,465 like you are in a treasure hunt now, and that one minute can feel really. 391 00:22:36,885 --> 00:22:37,575 Luxurious. 392 00:22:38,055 --> 00:22:40,845 And so, yeah, I think that's an important rule. 393 00:22:41,115 --> 00:22:43,785 And the other really important one is about kindness. 394 00:22:43,875 --> 00:22:47,385 So I, I feel like there's these two wings of practice, curiosity and 395 00:22:47,385 --> 00:22:51,585 kindness that I, I try to practice every day all the time, and it's 396 00:22:51,885 --> 00:22:53,745 easier to weigh in on curiosity. 397 00:22:54,255 --> 00:22:59,505 But if I'm having a tough day, the curiosity comes with 398 00:22:59,505 --> 00:23:00,885 like negativity and judgment. 399 00:23:01,965 --> 00:23:07,545 And so be kind to yourself like every time our attention goes somewhere 400 00:23:07,545 --> 00:23:10,575 where we don't want it to, and we bring it back like we are strengthening 401 00:23:10,575 --> 00:23:11,835 those muscles and it takes time. 402 00:23:12,315 --> 00:23:16,035 So just to keep bringing it back again and again, and 403 00:23:16,065 --> 00:23:17,775 congratulate yourself for having. 404 00:23:18,389 --> 00:23:22,290 Strengthened and exercised your muscles of attention in the process. 405 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,800 So I just wanted to say in terms of how to use them, as I mentioned the 406 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,419 cards, they come in a a metal black tin. 407 00:23:27,419 --> 00:23:30,209 The idea being that you can take them with you on a walk 408 00:23:30,209 --> 00:23:31,260 and not worry about the rain. 409 00:23:31,290 --> 00:23:33,600 And also there's the guidance for how you can do it by 410 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,760 yourself, but also with a group. 411 00:23:36,389 --> 00:23:40,169 And we've offered them to our community through our newsletter. 412 00:23:40,754 --> 00:23:44,475 And now they're available in our online shop, but we're just about 413 00:23:44,475 --> 00:23:46,274 to release a version for retailers. 414 00:23:46,274 --> 00:23:48,344 So physical shops and, yeah. 415 00:23:48,344 --> 00:23:50,985 I thought this would be interesting to your listeners 'cause hopefully 416 00:23:50,985 --> 00:23:52,814 museum shops and art galleries. 417 00:23:53,250 --> 00:23:56,310 Would like to stop them and so do get in touch if that's you. 418 00:23:56,970 --> 00:23:57,780 Claire Bown: Absolutely. 419 00:23:57,780 --> 00:24:01,590 And these cards, I must say, I collect a lot of museum cards. 420 00:24:01,980 --> 00:24:05,460 I'm a bit of a collector with these things, and they are beautifully packaged, 421 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,270 and as you say, they're in a really sturdy box so that you can take them with 422 00:24:09,270 --> 00:24:12,450 you because you don't want your cards being in a cardboard box and getting 423 00:24:12,450 --> 00:24:14,015 wet if you're stuck in the rain as well. 424 00:24:14,335 --> 00:24:18,385 I have one more question for you about the cards, which would be you advise 425 00:24:18,385 --> 00:24:20,665 people to take a card and stick with it. 426 00:24:20,875 --> 00:24:25,195 What happens if you feel you cannot use that card or you 427 00:24:25,195 --> 00:24:26,575 can't do anything with it? 428 00:24:26,785 --> 00:24:28,075 What would your advice be? 429 00:24:28,435 --> 00:24:31,195 Menka Sanghvi: Yeah, so we have this situation in photo walks and 430 00:24:31,795 --> 00:24:33,445 we usually encourage people to swap. 431 00:24:33,625 --> 00:24:36,835 So you, if you're done with a card, then you swap with someone 432 00:24:36,835 --> 00:24:37,675 else if you're in a group. 433 00:24:38,095 --> 00:24:43,105 But before doing so, as you say, I really encourage people to just. 434 00:24:44,054 --> 00:24:48,675 Let go of some assumptions around what's interesting and what's not, 435 00:24:48,675 --> 00:24:52,485 what's worthy of your attention and what's not, and give it a go. 436 00:24:52,544 --> 00:24:53,774 Like I say, it's an experiment. 437 00:24:54,345 --> 00:24:58,304 You can't really get it wrong, and you're definitely gonna learn something 438 00:24:58,304 --> 00:24:59,685 about yourself and about the world. 439 00:25:00,254 --> 00:25:05,985 So that's the kind of, it's a nudge, but I feel like it's also just a permission for 440 00:25:05,985 --> 00:25:10,720 people to, to linger with whatever it is that they're being encouraged to look at. 441 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,350 Yeah, and I think we need that permission, don't we? 442 00:25:13,530 --> 00:25:19,200 It's like if you're a parent, you're used to giving your child instructions in terms 443 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,149 of what to do rather than what not to do. 444 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:22,955 Like it's always easier to say. 445 00:25:23,910 --> 00:25:26,820 I wonder if there'll be any squirrels out in the woods today. 446 00:25:26,850 --> 00:25:30,180 Let's go check rather than no more bluey for you today. 447 00:25:30,510 --> 00:25:33,600 And it's the same for adults, and we just need to be told what to do. 448 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,470 And sometimes, because it gives us permission to do that thing for 449 00:25:37,530 --> 00:25:39,620 longer than we would if we were just. 450 00:25:40,260 --> 00:25:40,889 On our own. 451 00:25:41,159 --> 00:25:41,760 Claire Bown: Absolutely. 452 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,550 I think it takes us back a little bit to the boring card that I put 453 00:25:44,550 --> 00:25:45,959 at the top of the pile as well. 454 00:25:45,959 --> 00:25:49,740 Sometimes that can feel a little bit uncomfortable to sit with something 455 00:25:49,740 --> 00:25:56,490 that you don't always immediately see a way through or how that might work. 456 00:25:56,909 --> 00:26:00,330 But sticking with it and really thinking about how we can perhaps sit with. 457 00:26:00,810 --> 00:26:03,810 That feeling of discomfort for a little bit and push past 458 00:26:03,810 --> 00:26:05,400 that instinctive reaction. 459 00:26:05,790 --> 00:26:08,700 And I feel we sometimes do that very much in the museum as well. 460 00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:12,180 If we're looking at something, particularly art that perhaps we 461 00:26:12,180 --> 00:26:15,990 don't have an immediate reaction to or something that we have a cold reaction 462 00:26:15,990 --> 00:26:20,550 to, then we can push past it by taking a little bit of time to sit with it and 463 00:26:20,550 --> 00:26:24,570 seeing what happens, what comes up if we spend a little bit more time with it. 464 00:26:24,570 --> 00:26:25,710 So, exactly. 465 00:26:25,740 --> 00:26:26,040 Yeah. 466 00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:28,170 Menka Sanghvi: The one card, for example, called shatter. 467 00:26:28,590 --> 00:26:33,990 And the prompt is find a moving shadow and it's really clear, really specific. 468 00:26:34,050 --> 00:26:38,130 And uh, the other day someone had that card and they said, 469 00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:40,890 it just is nothing moving. 470 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,090 And then they realized that they were moving and they became really 471 00:26:45,090 --> 00:26:46,500 fascinated with their own shadow. 472 00:26:46,770 --> 00:26:50,160 It was like that Peter Pan situation where they started photographing 473 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:51,720 and leaning into their own shadow. 474 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,520 But yeah, it's that permission and that encouragement to go a little bit longer. 475 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:57,150 Go past that. 476 00:26:57,585 --> 00:27:01,850 Point of discomfort and just ease into it, not take yourself too seriously. 477 00:27:02,745 --> 00:27:03,044 Claire Bown: Yeah. 478 00:27:03,044 --> 00:27:04,815 And see what happens as well. 479 00:27:04,875 --> 00:27:05,294 What happens. 480 00:27:05,294 --> 00:27:06,014 I love that phrase. 481 00:27:06,284 --> 00:27:08,385 You've been extremely busy in the past year or so. 482 00:27:08,385 --> 00:27:12,885 You've also released a book, your Best Digital Life, and I loved reading 483 00:27:12,885 --> 00:27:17,625 about how our digital habits, how our phone use, particularly our being 484 00:27:17,625 --> 00:27:22,305 online all the time, can really affect the way we see and pay attention. 485 00:27:22,305 --> 00:27:23,475 So can you perhaps. 486 00:27:23,740 --> 00:27:28,690 Talk a little bit about this idea of algorithmic seeing versus 487 00:27:29,110 --> 00:27:32,770 the more slow offline looking that we were just talking about. 488 00:27:32,980 --> 00:27:33,490 Menka Sanghvi: Yes. 489 00:27:33,490 --> 00:27:37,930 Yeah, so we were talking about filters earlier, attentional filters, and 490 00:27:37,930 --> 00:27:42,040 at the moment, because we spend a third of our waking lives in digital 491 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,780 environments, and these days our filters come from those digital environments 492 00:27:46,780 --> 00:27:49,060 and the information presented to us. 493 00:27:49,125 --> 00:27:50,475 It is very compelling. 494 00:27:50,535 --> 00:27:54,375 It appeals to our sense of urgency or social connection, or fear of missing 495 00:27:54,375 --> 00:27:56,595 out our need for companionship. 496 00:27:56,745 --> 00:28:02,175 This is where social media and AI comes in and meets our human needs, and it's 497 00:28:02,175 --> 00:28:05,895 important to remember that this is happening to us because we're human. 498 00:28:06,375 --> 00:28:09,075 And to be kind to ourself when we're wondering why is it that my 499 00:28:09,075 --> 00:28:15,765 attention is so easily manipulated by these apps, these feeds, and I think 500 00:28:15,765 --> 00:28:21,165 it's very easy to trade our agency over our attention for convenience. 501 00:28:21,345 --> 00:28:28,185 So any practice that helps us to slow down, reclaim that control, that 502 00:28:28,485 --> 00:28:30,525 agency, our capacity to make a choice. 503 00:28:31,065 --> 00:28:32,895 Is really important in these times. 504 00:28:33,015 --> 00:28:37,515 And so this book, your Best Digital Life is all about aligning your 505 00:28:37,515 --> 00:28:39,855 attention with your intention. 506 00:28:40,245 --> 00:28:43,425 So I sometimes say algorithms amplify our least intentional 507 00:28:43,425 --> 00:28:49,365 selves because everything is so slippery and convenient that we end 508 00:28:49,365 --> 00:28:51,195 up in a behavioral patterns that. 509 00:28:52,034 --> 00:28:54,855 Are kinda designed for us rather than doing what we think 510 00:28:54,855 --> 00:28:55,875 is important in the moment. 511 00:28:56,534 --> 00:28:59,895 And to take an example from the book, like you can just pick up your phone 512 00:28:59,895 --> 00:29:01,135 to check what time it is and then. 513 00:29:02,025 --> 00:29:05,415 20 minutes later, you're wondering why you are posting a story on 514 00:29:05,415 --> 00:29:07,245 Instagram, like, what happened? 515 00:29:07,305 --> 00:29:10,425 And it's because it's designed to do that to us. 516 00:29:10,425 --> 00:29:15,915 And so to just take a moment to slow down before picking it up, knowing that 517 00:29:15,915 --> 00:29:20,115 it's a very slippery and manipulative environment that we're entering into. 518 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,780 So what is it that we wanted look at right now when we're picking up the phone? 519 00:29:24,140 --> 00:29:28,010 Claire Bown: And I think you also wrote that even having your phone. 520 00:29:28,010 --> 00:29:31,730 I'm looking at my phone now and uh, even though it's face down on 521 00:29:31,730 --> 00:29:35,630 the desk, it's still attracting our attention in some way. 522 00:29:35,630 --> 00:29:37,460 Even it's mere presence. 523 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,330 Even if I can't see the screen or there's no notifications going off, it's 524 00:29:41,330 --> 00:29:43,130 doing something to us at the same time. 525 00:29:43,430 --> 00:29:43,940 Menka Sanghvi: Yes. 526 00:29:43,940 --> 00:29:44,300 Yeah. 527 00:29:44,540 --> 00:29:47,990 The phone has taken a very high position in our attentional filters. 528 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,370 Like it's up there with our name and our sense of home. 529 00:29:53,879 --> 00:29:59,160 And so because of that, the phone has a tug on your attention. 530 00:29:59,580 --> 00:30:03,660 If it's on your desk, if it's face down, if it's in a bag under 531 00:30:03,660 --> 00:30:05,910 your desk, if it's switched off. 532 00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:09,780 But if it's out of the room and it's switched off, then you start getting 533 00:30:09,780 --> 00:30:11,820 back to your normal cognitive functions. 534 00:30:11,865 --> 00:30:11,925 So 535 00:30:12,375 --> 00:30:16,605 Claire Bown: if we're using our phone as a camera, when we're out and about, does 536 00:30:16,605 --> 00:30:18,495 it have the same kind of pull for us? 537 00:30:18,525 --> 00:30:21,915 'cause I'm just thinking, sometimes I'm using my camera to zoom in on 538 00:30:21,915 --> 00:30:25,605 things, to look at things, and then I might get distracted by something 539 00:30:25,605 --> 00:30:28,785 else and having to pull myself back to what I was originally doing. 540 00:30:28,815 --> 00:30:32,745 I've opened it up and I feel then that there's this kind of Pandora's box effect 541 00:30:32,745 --> 00:30:36,525 where you kind of, you try not to get dragged into your phone at the same time. 542 00:30:36,705 --> 00:30:37,065 Menka Sanghvi: Yeah. 543 00:30:37,185 --> 00:30:37,515 Yeah. 544 00:30:37,575 --> 00:30:42,165 I am a big proponent of single purpose devices generally, so it just makes it 545 00:30:42,165 --> 00:30:48,405 easier for my brain to know what I'm doing if the tool itself is telling me. 546 00:30:48,465 --> 00:30:49,845 Right now you're taking photographs. 547 00:30:49,965 --> 00:30:51,435 Right now you're listening to music. 548 00:30:51,645 --> 00:30:55,725 Right now you're reading a book, and right now you're connecting with an 549 00:30:55,725 --> 00:30:58,365 old friend or I was talking to my. 550 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,870 Teenage niece the other day about her phone relationship. 551 00:31:04,470 --> 00:31:08,700 But one counterintuitive piece of advice I gave her was maybe you need another phone, 552 00:31:09,179 --> 00:31:12,629 like, because there's so many things that you need to do on your phone, but 553 00:31:12,629 --> 00:31:17,010 there's other things that you only wanna do once in a while, maybe once a day. 554 00:31:17,399 --> 00:31:22,620 Like checking your socials or reading your substack or like just 555 00:31:22,620 --> 00:31:24,870 to be really intentional about what you're doing, basically. 556 00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:28,649 It sometimes is easier if your physical environment is giving 557 00:31:28,649 --> 00:31:30,000 you some support in that. 558 00:31:30,330 --> 00:31:33,540 Claire Bown: And I think there's a real through line with your work here as well, 559 00:31:33,540 --> 00:31:37,020 because it's thinking about intention and attention, which is always how I 560 00:31:37,020 --> 00:31:42,780 describe slow looking and thinking about intentional phone use and where we place 561 00:31:42,780 --> 00:31:45,000 our attention is incredibly important. 562 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,649 Something you talk about in this book. 563 00:31:47,010 --> 00:31:49,530 Menka Sanghvi: Yeah, we talked about algorithmic looking. 564 00:31:49,530 --> 00:31:49,590 Yeah. 565 00:31:49,770 --> 00:31:52,230 Versus this intentional looking. 566 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:59,430 And the main difference is that when you are being kinda guided by algorithms as 567 00:31:59,430 --> 00:32:04,110 to what to look at, you are in a passive mode, you're consuming information. 568 00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:09,600 Whereas when you are out looking, whether you are just being curious 569 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:14,550 or taking photographs or in a museum, you are in an active mindset. 570 00:32:15,044 --> 00:32:20,235 You're curating information so you, you're much more aware on 571 00:32:20,235 --> 00:32:21,945 a kind of metacognitive level. 572 00:32:21,945 --> 00:32:27,044 You're noticing what you're noticing, and so you realize like, oh, I find 573 00:32:27,044 --> 00:32:28,155 this painting really interesting. 574 00:32:28,185 --> 00:32:28,935 I wonder why. 575 00:32:29,385 --> 00:32:31,485 And you're curious about your own attention at that point. 576 00:32:31,514 --> 00:32:33,195 So that keeps you really active and engaged. 577 00:32:33,764 --> 00:32:37,425 So I think that's the main difference, is kinda the passive scrolling and consuming 578 00:32:37,514 --> 00:32:43,004 versus the active curating of information and deciding what you wanna lean in. 579 00:32:43,919 --> 00:32:45,480 On and pay more attention to. 580 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,100 Claire Bown: And do you have any other practical tips for kind of bringing that 581 00:32:50,100 --> 00:32:51,780 freshness back to our way of looking? 582 00:32:51,870 --> 00:32:55,770 Is there perhaps one piece of advice you would give to listeners to do when they 583 00:32:55,770 --> 00:32:57,840 finish listening to this conversation? 584 00:32:58,110 --> 00:33:00,480 Menka Sanghvi: So one piece of advice is to really think carefully 585 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,629 about what you wanna notice more of in your life at any one moment. 586 00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:08,610 So for example, today I'm going for a walk at lunchtime and I 587 00:33:08,610 --> 00:33:10,470 want to notice my neighborhood. 588 00:33:11,370 --> 00:33:17,669 I'm probably gonna leave my phone at home, but yesterday I really wanted to enjoy the 589 00:33:17,669 --> 00:33:22,710 birds and so I took my phone along with me and I have this thing called Merlin. 590 00:33:22,740 --> 00:33:23,340 It's an app. 591 00:33:23,430 --> 00:33:23,520 Oh yeah. 592 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,000 Which tells me which birds I can hear and. 593 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,930 It just made me feel so much more connected to the wildlife 594 00:33:31,260 --> 00:33:33,390 and so there's no one right way. 595 00:33:33,570 --> 00:33:40,110 And the challenge is making sure that we're really staying aligned 596 00:33:40,110 --> 00:33:43,380 to our, so one thing that I've really learned from studying 597 00:33:43,380 --> 00:33:48,510 technology and how easily influenced we are is that there's something. 598 00:33:48,965 --> 00:33:51,335 In the human nature, which is resistant to friction. 599 00:33:51,485 --> 00:33:55,685 You know, we always lean towards convenience, which makes sense, like why 600 00:33:55,685 --> 00:33:57,125 would we wanna do the inconvenient thing? 601 00:33:57,635 --> 00:34:03,605 But the challenge is that sometimes having convenience defined for us 602 00:34:03,785 --> 00:34:05,315 isn't aligned with our intention. 603 00:34:05,615 --> 00:34:08,225 And so I started playing with this idea of like adding 604 00:34:08,225 --> 00:34:09,784 strategic friction into my life. 605 00:34:10,295 --> 00:34:15,725 And so, for example, having devices that only allow me to do one thing on them 606 00:34:16,295 --> 00:34:18,245 makes it harder for me to do those other. 607 00:34:18,824 --> 00:34:22,395 You described as a Pandora's box of options of things to do. 608 00:34:22,395 --> 00:34:27,105 So the prompts, the 60 experiments and looking are similar in the sense 609 00:34:27,105 --> 00:34:30,014 that they're adding friction to what you would normally want to look at. 610 00:34:30,915 --> 00:34:33,734 And they're saying, Hey Ashley, why don't you go look at a shadow 611 00:34:34,304 --> 00:34:39,014 or go look at the light or go look at strangers walking past. 612 00:34:40,020 --> 00:34:40,920 It's not always comfortable. 613 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,440 It's not always what you want to do, convenient in the moment, 614 00:34:43,830 --> 00:34:47,700 but it gives you that meaningful friction, which takes you to a new 615 00:34:47,700 --> 00:34:49,830 place and opens up your perspective. 616 00:34:50,340 --> 00:34:54,840 So I think that the design world and the tech world's aim to create 617 00:34:54,840 --> 00:35:01,140 a completely frictionless experience of life is a little bit scary because 618 00:35:01,830 --> 00:35:03,270 it's what differentiates us from. 619 00:35:04,035 --> 00:35:08,985 Being a machine, if everything that we do is predictable and we're always 620 00:35:08,985 --> 00:35:12,645 taking the path of least resistance, which is what makes us predictable, 621 00:35:13,095 --> 00:35:16,605 and there's a quote by Wendell Berry, which I love, which is that it's easy 622 00:35:16,605 --> 00:35:20,025 for me to imagine that the next great division of the world will be between 623 00:35:20,205 --> 00:35:22,245 people who wish to live as creatures. 624 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,280 And people who wish to live as machines creature, please. 625 00:35:26,700 --> 00:35:27,360 That's what I would say. 626 00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:29,160 Claire Bown: Thank you for sharing that. 627 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,800 I'd love, uh, to ask you a couple of final questions. 628 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,900 The first one is always looking to the future. 629 00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:34,830 What's next for you? 630 00:35:34,830 --> 00:35:35,850 What have you got coming up? 631 00:35:36,420 --> 00:35:41,310 And the last question is, how can people find out more about you and get in touch? 632 00:35:42,135 --> 00:35:43,125 Menka Sanghvi: Thanks for asking. 633 00:35:43,245 --> 00:35:43,875 I'm growing. 634 00:35:43,875 --> 00:35:49,305 Just looking at the moment and working on a series of books, each one's focused 635 00:35:49,305 --> 00:35:53,985 on an aspect of everyday life that is so easy to overlook, but it can be a source 636 00:35:53,985 --> 00:35:55,665 of wonder and meaning and connection. 637 00:35:56,025 --> 00:36:00,855 So lots of opportunities to collaborate with photographers, with experts, with the 638 00:36:00,855 --> 00:36:02,655 people who are really passionate about. 639 00:36:03,015 --> 00:36:04,905 Different ordinary sightings. 640 00:36:05,415 --> 00:36:10,065 And so yeah, we're looking at pigeons and the London Planetree 641 00:36:10,365 --> 00:36:12,405 and Moss and all kinds of stuff. 642 00:36:12,885 --> 00:36:17,265 Call to action would be to join the just Looking newsletter noticing, 643 00:36:17,775 --> 00:36:22,360 and email me if you're interested in stocking the 60 experiments and looking. 644 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,150 And yeah, come and hang out with us on Instagram or Blue Sky, but 645 00:36:27,210 --> 00:36:28,740 obviously do it intentionally. 646 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,140 Claire Bown: Thank you so much for sharing those. 647 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,680 We will put links in the show notes and thank you Menka for 648 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:35,940 coming on the podcast today. 649 00:36:36,390 --> 00:36:37,080 Menka Sanghvi: You're very welcome. 650 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:38,340 It was a pleasure to speak to you. 651 00:36:40,425 --> 00:36:43,305 Claire Bown: So a huge thank you to Menka for being on the show today. 652 00:36:43,605 --> 00:36:47,085 You can find out more about Menka and her work by signing up for 653 00:36:47,085 --> 00:36:51,825 the Just Looking newsletter at We are Just looking.org or follow the 654 00:36:51,825 --> 00:36:53,925 project on Instagram and Blue Sky. 655 00:36:54,885 --> 00:36:58,395 If you are interested in stocking the 60 experiments in looking cards 656 00:36:58,395 --> 00:37:03,405 in your museum shop, you can reach Menka on her email address, which 657 00:37:03,405 --> 00:37:05,175 I've listed in the show notes. 658 00:37:05,685 --> 00:37:09,825 Also go to the show notes for all the relevant links for today's episode. 659 00:37:10,575 --> 00:37:14,565 If you've enjoyed this episode or if any of our previous episodes 660 00:37:14,745 --> 00:37:18,885 have helped you in your work, please consider supporting The Art Engager. 661 00:37:19,275 --> 00:37:24,404 Become a friend of the podcast on Patreon or pick up a copy of my book, 662 00:37:24,615 --> 00:37:30,375 The Art Engager Reimagining Guided Experiences in Museums Available 663 00:37:30,375 --> 00:37:32,625 now wherever you buy your books. 664 00:37:33,795 --> 00:37:39,404 That's it for today and for 2025, I'll be taking December off and The 665 00:37:39,404 --> 00:37:44,025 Art Engager will return in January with more inspiring conversations. 666 00:37:44,475 --> 00:37:46,665 Thank you so much for listening this year. 667 00:37:46,755 --> 00:37:47,775 See you next time. 668 00:37:51,015 --> 00:37:54,615 Thank you for listening to The Art Engager podcast with me, Claire Bown. 669 00:37:56,355 --> 00:38:00,135 You can find more art engagement resources by visiting my website, 670 00:38:00,525 --> 00:38:05,175 thinking museum.com, and you can also find me on Instagram at Thinking 671 00:38:05,175 --> 00:38:09,525 Museum, where I regularly share tips and tools on how to bring art 672 00:38:09,525 --> 00:38:12,195 to life and engage your audience. 673 00:38:13,350 --> 00:38:17,580 If you've enjoyed this episode, please share with others and subscribe to the 674 00:38:17,580 --> 00:38:20,370 show on your podcast player of choice. 675 00:38:21,330 --> 00:38:24,405 Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time.