[00:00:02] Jelisha: I'm looking for a simpler, calmer life. I feel like I got to a place where I become very stable financially, but now I'm shifting into this place of actual freedom. There's a difference, for me at least, between stability and freedom. Like what I'm experiencing now is freedom. Like freedom and the time and location and not being tied to one place and just the spaciousness that I have now.

[00:00:30] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question, how can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I'm your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money, coach and creator of the course, money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today's guest is Jelisha Gatling. Jelisha is back on the podcast today for the third time I believe. Jelisha is a graduate from my original cohort of Money Skills for Therapists in 2018. She also coached with us in Money Skills for Therapist. She was the first coach that I hired, and today, Jelisha is going to share about her experience of selling all of her things, leaving the United States in December, just in the nick of time and traveling the world and working as a therapist from wherever she wants to be. Today, Jelisha and I talk about the barriers that were in the way of her making this move that she really wanted to make.

[00:01:30] We talk about the ideas of creating financial stability versus financial freedom. We talk about creating freedom and richness within the context of what you have. Jelisha is not married. She doesn't have kids. I have a child. I am married. I own a home. So we talk about what connecting with that freedom and richness means in each of our own lives. Jelisha messaged me out of the blue a week or so ago, telling me about her adventures, and I was so inspired that I asked her to come on the podcast right away. Here is my conversation with Jelisha So Jelisha, welcome back to the podcast.

[00:02:15] Jelisha: Thank you for having me.

[00:02:16] Linzy: I'm so excited. This is, I think it's your third time coming on the podcast. Does that sound right?

[00:02:21] Jelisha: That makes sense.

[00:02:22] Linzy: Yeah, that feels right. And I was just saying to you off mic, before we started recording that,you and I have known each other for seven years now. You were in the very, very first cohort of Money Skills for Therapists. You were in the cohort that I was building the course as I taught it. So I've had the honor of witnessing these really cool transformations in your life in the seven years that we have known each other. And I'm excited to dig into what is happening with you right now around money and life and work. 'Cause you’ve done some cool stuff. So can you tell us about where you are now, what you've been doing?

[00:03:01] Jelisha: Yeah, I have continued to be in solo private practice working with couples. December of last year, 2024 I decided to break my lease and get rid of all my stuff. I sold all my things. And I packed two bags and I started gallivanting across the UK. I'm now currently in Southeast Asia. I just left Vietnam. I'm now in Thailand, andI haven't really talked much about this, but this has been something that I've wanted to do, meeting you,So I was like, I absolutely know I don't want to retire in the US and, working for myself and being able to shift into teletherapy has always been the plan, even pre Covid. So I finally decided to do it. I just ran out of excuses and decided to do it scared and,yeah, I'm on a residency kind of strategy plan. Like I'm looking for some place else to call home. That's a short summary.

[00:04:03] Linzy: Yes, so this is something you've always known you've wanted to do, I love the word gallivanting. That's the word that I use, too. Gallivanting around the world, right? right now, you're not really tied down to any one place.

[00:04:14] Jelisha: no, not tied down to anything. I went to the UK. I just left the UK in March. I needed some warmer weather, but that was an experience.I was doing some house and pet sitting actually, and so it really like offset costs, and I got to hang out with the best dogs and cats ever. Really, way more meaningful than I expected it to be. Like, I'm still connected with the pet parents, and it's just been lovely, like Scotland. All the places. It's been amazing, but anyway, I'm here in Asia now and I'm looking for a simpler, calmer life. I feel like I got to a place where I become very stable financially, but now I'm shifting into this place of actual freedom. And before I used to talk about financial freedom, and there's a difference, for me at least, between stability and freedom. Like what I'm experiencing now is freedom. Freedom and the time and location and not being tied to one place. And, just the spaciousness that I have now.

[00:05:15] Linzy: Yeah and that distinction between stability and freedom is really interesting, 'cause a lot of folks that I think about that, we've supported when you worked with me back in money sales for therapist a few years ago and that we've supported first, like stability is what they're looking for first, right? It's to get out of that feeling of constantly being behind, financially stressed, like not able to make bills. And so finding that financial stability, which I'm a huge fan of stability, right? I get really jazzed about stability. Helping folks have that, like regular paycheck. Get you out of that “this is an amazing month, I'm rich, and oh my god, I'm poor. How am I going to make my bills?” So let's get out of the unnecessary emotional rollercoaster that just has to do with your revenue in your business because our emotions should not be dictated by what's coming into our business.

[00:06:00] So there's a stability making there, but I'm hearing for you, it's once you get to stability, that's not really what you wanted, right? Like people talk about financial freedom, but I also think a lot of folks who get to that point of financial freedom, and I'm putting that in quotations of, where there's really nothing left to worry about financially, just find other shit to worry about, right? They just yeah, there's this interesting.. I don't know, human condition piece that happens there, where you just find other things to be stressed or unhappy about. And I'm hearing for you, once you hit stability. It's given you the financial means to do things you want to do, right? Like it costs money to get on a plane, and the UK is like not a cheap place to be, and that kind of stuff. What you have, what I'm hearing for you is freedom is what you're really looking for.

[00:06:47] Jelisha: Yeah, more peace, peace of mind. There's just so much going on in the US as we all know. It's so hard and I really want to live in a place where everything is centered around work. I think that's another piece. Being in these cultures, no one's asking me what I do for work.

[00:07:06] Linzy: Yes.

[00:07:07] Jelisha: No one cares.

[00:07:08] Linzy: No.

[00:07:08] Jelisha: And it's helping me to continue to divorce my worth with how much I make or what I do. I feel like that's been like something I've been trying to work on the past few years, and it's just so much easier. People are like, what do you like to do? Who are you? It's so interesting, and I love it. Yeah, we are, in North America, such a work obsessed culture and I think part of it is the cost of living is so high, right? Like it costs a lot to live here and especially in Canada where I am, the cost of housing has gone bananas in certain cities, especially,where you have to work so hard just to have a toehold in living in the place that you want to live, So like I think that is part of it is like cost of living when most of your time has to go to not just working but making sure you're earning a really good living. That is a really important part of your identity 'cause if you neglect that, you're going to lose your house.

[00:08:06] Jelisha: Exactly, there's a lot at stake.

[00:08:08] Linzy: There is a lot at stake. Yes.

[00:08:10] Jelisha: It feeds into the anxiety and it's constant because everything you just said, I totally resonate.

[00:08:16] Linzy: Yeah, and what you're doing now is what people have referred to over the last few years as a digital nomad kind of life, right? Like you're able to work in the US so you're earning US dollars, which is pretty key, I think, to this strategy

[00:08:31] Jelisha: Yes, yes.

[00:08:32] Linzy: To be clear, you're able to enjoy the cost of living in other places.

[00:08:36] Jelisha: Now that being said, the UK is very expensive. I feel like the geographic arbitrage does not work in the UK,but certainly in Southeast Asia, earning in US dollars. i'm going to assume you're pretty comfy. I am, it's interesting because though, more comfortable than I was, I still have to catch myself. Sometimes it's oh, there's too much space. Like you said, you find new things to worry about,and so I'm still very much a work in progress on getting out of the productivity trap. So I'm curious, like the lifestyle that you are living right now, do you think this is something specific about your personality? Do you think that lots of folks would benefit from letting themself just explore and wander? I'm thinking about therapists who are listening.

[00:09:20] Linzy: Do you think that it's a common overlap that therapists also, you know, like really deep down we want to be free, but we're tied to responsibility?

[00:09:28] Jelisha: I think it's pretty common. The feedback that I've gotten just from sharing with colleagues and therapist friends has been supportive of that

[00:09:36] Linzy: Yes, yes.

[00:09:38] Jelisha: I'm already getting to the point where I want to chill. Like I think I'm going to be in Thailand for a hot minute. Like I was in Vietnam for one month, and it gave me just so much space and time to really explore the neighborhood, and I got to know a lot of locals and I have people that I'm absolutely going to go back and and it was just amazing. I know I'm not the only one because I definitely was looking into different communities of therapists that are doing telehealth around the world. I was I didn't end up working with anyone specifically in the therapist realm, but was following a few things and was thinking about it. And I'll also add this. I don't really have a lot of responsibility. I'm not married. I don't have anyone else I have to consider. I don't have kids. And I know that makes a big difference. It's just me.

[00:10:24] Linzy: Definitely. Definitely. Yes.

[00:10:26] Jelisha: The scary part of that too, where it's oh, It's just me. Like it's on so I'm like, is there something about my personality? I've always wanted to travel, so...

[00:10:39] Linzy: Yes,and yeah, I totally hear that. what is amazing about it is also what's terrifying about it. Like that level of freedom, like freedom from responsibility also means freedom from. I don't know, there's a lack of reciprocity there somehow. It's like you're not responsible for anybody, but also nobody's responsible for you.And when I got your message, 'cause we were chatting a little bit before, we started recording. you messaged me. I think two weekends ago now,you sent me a message and I, I try to, I'm, a practicing digital minimalist, to greater or lesser degrees of success, depending on my levels of anxiety.

[00:11:15] And, I saw a message come through from you, which was like 9:00 PM my time on Saturday, which is like pretty, pretty damn close to bedtime and when I saw a photo come through, I was like, this probably isn't for me. Like Jelisha and I haven't chatted in probably like a year. I must have accidentally got added to a channel. But then when I saw it the next day, it was all these fucking beautiful pictures from Vietnam. And you were like, “Linzy, I wanted to give you an update.” And interestingly, I noticed for myself, I was like, oh my god, that's amazing.

[00:11:45] Number two, I was jealous. I was like, dammit, Jelisha off having fun, and I'm parenting, and having challenges in my business. But then number three, inspiration immediately. 'Cause something that you said in your message to me was that Tiffany and I… I think you mentioned both of us as you often do. I feel like we're like a pair in your head, Tiffany McClain and I. That we had inspired you in the work that we've done with you, not just financially. You can have what you want, but you have the confidence that you can do anything. And that was a really powerful message for me to receive I think at a time where just emotionally, in that moment I was having to make a difficult personal decision and I was like, Jelisha can do anything. I can do anything.

[00:12:26] Jelisha: I love that.

[00:12:28] Linzy: So it was a nice little feedback loop. I felt really grateful for that. I was like, oh, I put something beautiful out in the universe years ago, and now like you're bringing it back to me. Because I do think, you and I have very different lives, right? I do have a child. Do I ever have a child? So what I'm focusing on right now in my life, my chapter is about creating stability for him, right?

[00:12:41] And I'm very aware of that, as I've zoomed out to do some planning around life and this idea of buckets or chapters... The book Die With Zero I read recently, and he talks about this idea of like your money...] it's not just saving money for the end of your life where we often think we're saving for the future, we're saving for retirement. I'm going to have a great retirement, but not all of us make it to retirement. Or we don't have health when we're in retirement, so thinking about your life in terms of these, he describes 'em as buckets.

[00:13:12] I would think about chapters, too, where it's okay, what are the experiences that you want to have in your forties? What are the experiences you want to have in your fifties? And some of those experiences that you want to have, make a lot more sense in your forties. go do Mount Everest in your forties. Don't wait till your seventies. It's going to be a different situation, right? So I like thinking about those buckets. So that has helped me to stop and think about, okay, what are the things I want to do in life, but also what makes sense now? So right now, I'm creating stability for my son. We're really involved in his school community, right? Like we have an event tonight. I'm the treasurer of the school council. Surprise!

[00:13:47] Linzy: I'm going to pick up the float, drop that off, and count the cash at the end of the night. My partner is going to be like volunteering at the ticket selling table. I got my dad on the barbecue, pulled in the grandparents. This is my chapter, which is actually only probably going to be about 10 more years until my son's a teenager, and is like “Mom, leave me alone.” So I have noticed that it helps to zoom out and think about, okay, what is this chapter of my life? What needs to happen in this chapter?

[00:14:12] What's nice to have happened in this chapter and what should actually not happen in this chapter? So I, for instance, have a dream of doing some sabbatical time. I would love to live in Portland for a good six months. We'll see what happens with the US situation. but then I realized it doesn't make sense to drag my son to Portland. That's not good for him, right? It's not good for a 7-year-old to be removed from his friends and from his school and go live in another city where he doesn't know anybody for six months. That's actually not a great experience for a child to have. Like what he needs is the stability to build continual friendships and learn how to work through things with his friends and build a community and a sense of belonging.

[00:14:47] And what I've heard from folks who were moved around a lot by their parents, usually for work situations, is that they never felt like they really had a home, Or never felt like they had a community. So that has been a helpful reflection for me to be like, yeah, okay, right now is stability time in my own life. But when my son is off and on his own, oh man, do I have plans? Like I love Iceland. I would love to live in Iceland for a solid year. Fucking love Iceland so much. Twice.

[00:15:14] Jelisha: Oh my gosh. I'm jealous.

[00:15:14] Linzy: Yes. See, you're jealous of me now and I feel like I'm doing what you're doing a little bit, but in a little burst. Like last year when I turned 40, I made a really big deal of it when I turned 40 and I went to London, for a week, and I went to Iceland and I went with Tiffany McClain and Maegan Megginson and Annie Wright.

[00:15:35] Jelisha: I'm jealous now, what? You're going to explode. I can't take it.

[00:15:42] Linzy: Yeah those three friends who are all those of you listening might recognize some of those therapist consultants in the space. Annie Wright is an incredible therapist who's now moved into, helping high-functioning women who were under parented,developmental trauma. Amazing, incredible women who I don't get to see much. So they actually came with me to England, which was fucking incredible, right? so beautiful. So now I have these gorgeous memories of them. And then Annie came with me to Iceland. We stayed at this incredible hotel. So I'm giving myself these little beautiful experiences And also I'.ll say the hotel where Annie and I stayed, later that year the parking lot was filled with lava when a volcano went off nearby. So I was like, great timing for us.

[00:16:19] Jelisha: Oh my goodness.

[00:16:22] Linzy: But I feel like for my life, as I think about, our different levels of responsibility, 'cause I'm responsible for a lot of people right now, I'm giving myself this little, almost like taste of what you're doing, right? this little burst and doing it the high ticket way, going to expensive places doing all the things. But those memories I have forever now. And just the other day Maegan reflected to me that it's a year ago that we were in London together. But for my life, given the stability that I need to take for my son, I wouldn't be able to do what you're doing now, but I could do it in 10 years. So, stopping and thinking about our context and how do we get what we need in our context?

[00:16:59] Jelisha: I love you sharing this, Linzy, because getting a taste, it's like getting out of the all or nothing. And I think like I didn't have a fully fleshed out plan like I thought I should have over the years, but I love you breaking down how you're getting a taste of those things and like how rich those kinds of memories are and also, we both turned 40 last year. I turned 40 last year and I had a whole, yeah.

[00:17:22] Linzy: Okay. There you go. Yeah, same page and I think part of that illustrates too, like showcase we're the same age, 1984 babies,how our lives have ended up looking a bit different, but we're both still seeking how do we have the richness that we seek within the context that we have, And your reflection of getting it out of all or nothing. 'Cause this is something that I talk about too with my students in the course. It's so easy to fall into all or nothing all the time, right?It's like I have to work super, super hard and make a ton of money to make up for these things.

[00:17:52] Or I have to put all my money in debt. Like the fact that I have debt is like the most pressing issue in my life. I have to put all my money there, but usually I find the solution to most of life's problems is somewhere in the middle. Yes. Yeah, and like seeking, what is it that you're actually looking for? So I'm curious, you had mentioned earlier that you had all these excuses for not doing this thing that you really wanted to do and eventually you ran out of excuses. What were some of the excuses that you gave for not setting out and traveling in the way that you've managed to do now? What was getting in your way?

[00:18:23] Jelisha: Big one, it's interesting. you don't have enough money saved, or it just felt like it was never going to be enough. Just finally got to a point where it was like, you don't know what the hell you need. I don't know, I think I was approaching it and that you're never going to be ready. And also thinking about all the scary things that I've done financially with you. Even investing in your course and in Tiffany's course, like for me that was scary as hell. And just thinking about Jelisha, just do it scared.

[00:18:55] You've done it scared. So that piece,years ago, it was like, maybe I should wait until I meet someone and I've met people, I've dated, whatever, but you can't wait. I knew that logically, but yeah, part of me was like, it would be nice to not do this alone and have someone with me to share all the unknowns, But yeah, so that was probably a thing. Or even like dating someone for a couple of years and like trying to talk them into it, and trying to work out how they're going to work out their job and do it with me, but them not really truly wanting that for themselves.What were other excuses? I'm not mature enough. I'm not healed enough. I need more therapy. A lot of it was around that.

[00:19:37] Linzy: Oh interesting.

[00:19:38] Jelisha: I'm too depressed. I don't know that I'm strong enough to do this like yeah, I'd say probably like the top ones where you're not mentally sound enough to take on this fucking big journey. And being scared that I was just not going to be able to handle it.

[00:19:53] Linzy: I'm hearing just like a lot of, like not enough, money, not enough, companionship. Like somebody should be with me, not enough, like mental fortitude. Like I'm not going to be able to handle it. And I'm curious, how has it been to just do it scared?

[00:20:07] Jelisha: It's been fantastic. One, I'm not really alone. With the pet sitting in the UK, the pets are the best companions ever. Also, it's not as if I'm this person who's super anxious. I go out by myself, I don't get anxious. I'm fine eating alone. I'll do things alone. That's never really been a thing for me.

[00:20:24] And when I go out, like I just do. And so that's not going to turn off. And also I think I've, and this is even pre-leaving, I've come to really appreciate shorter term connections, or Like we don't have to be friends forever, or see each other again or whatnot. And so I feel like I'm just having these meaningful connections with people that I probably will never see again. It's just been, it's been really nice and people have been so kind. That's been blowing my mind,

[00:20:58] Linzy: And I think that is a really world expanding experience to give yourself in itself is just let yourself meet people and realize the goodness of people 'cause if I think about two, things are politically, especially in the states, like in Canada, we just had an election that went remarkably, Canadians listening, everybody might not agree with me, but I feel like they will just given who listens to this podcast, like we were really starting to head down that more divisive road, as America has. And, we fucking turned it around, which is incredible and leaned back into our kind of original values.

[00:21:29] So that has been a real, whew relief. But I feel like this intense divisiveness has really been in the air for the last, let's say 10 years, where it's whose side are you on? One of my friends who was a firefighter was saying that he was getting grilled by guys at work with who are you voting for? And he's dude, I'm not going to tell you who I'm voting for. Like people around the world die for the right, for private votes. They're like, oh, so you're voting for the wrong people. You're voting for these guys are these guys, right? Like this intense like you're with us or you're against us,and how poisonous that is to us as people and as communities, and how it just blocks connection and humanness and I think when you just put yourself out in the world in the way that you are, you end up meeting all sorts of people and having all sorts of conversations and just getting exposed to perspectives you never would if you just stayed home and talked to people just like you.

[00:22:17] Jelisha: Totally, exactly, everything you just said. Spot on.

[00:22:20] Linzy: Yeah, and that's been my experience too when I've traveled a bit. It's like - you make a friend for a night, you make a friend for dinner. when we were in Iceland, we adopted this travel nurse from the US who was there by herself, and we were like, come have. And then, the three of us asked her very detailed system-based questions about the gendered role of nursing, and toxicity in nursing workplaces.

[00:22:39] And she was awesome. We had a great conversation, but she was just our friend for dinner and then she headed on her way. There's a really beautiful thing about that. So I guess my final question, 'cause we should wrap up eventually, is what have you learned about yourself in taking this step, in doing this thing that many parts of you thought you couldn't handle and that you couldn't do? What have you learned about yourself?

[00:23:01] Jelisha: What have I learned about myself? Oh. I am stronger than I thought. It sounds so simple. I'm stronger than I thought, and I got it together. I don't, I dunno, yeah, I don't know if this is also answering your question, but this is what's coming up for me. It's okay to change your mind. It's okay to reroute and you're going to have to, if you take on a journey like this.

[00:23:24] And I think the same thing in private practice, like even in one location, I feel like that's probably been a huge burning thing when things haven't gone right? Or the code's not working to get in, and it's midnight, and it's raining and you're on this hill and the host is not answering.. I can tell you so many stories, but it's okay to change your mind. It's okay to think, oh my gosh, I think I really want to live here and then get there. And it's not what you thought.

[00:23:48] And then I feel like there's this pressure, and I don't know if other people resonate with this pressure too. What are you going to do? Where are you going to go? Where are you going to live? Where? And if you know, and if you don't follow through with that, you feel like a failure. Or if you don't try to make yourself. That's been huge and is really helping me move through some of the bumps and the unknowns, and visa stuff. I just have, like you said, I have a whole new set of, I don't want to say problems, but things to work out. Even from how to work this washing machine. It's totally in Thai, and I don't know what coins it needs. I'm chatting with chatGPT, guessing, I'm hitting it. I don't know.

[00:24:31] Linzy: Yes, totally, And I think in those moments we really meet ourselves in new ways with those little moments. I have travel stories that are coming up that I want to tell you, but I'll tell you after 'cause you know, this is not a travel podcast. But Jelisha, this has been so fun. Thank you for sharing about this most recent leg of your journey. If folks want to find you and learn more about you, 'cause you are a therapist based in New York, where can they learn more about you?

[00:25:01] Jelisha: They can learn more about me at savingthesaver.com. So that's my handle on Instagram, TikTok, that's where I'm rocking out, so yeah.

[00:25:11] Linzy: Wonderful. Thanks Jelisha.I love Jelisha's point about doing it scared. There are so many things in our lives that we want to do that we are holding ourselves back from. Like she was saying with her example, because you don't have enough money or you don't have the right person to support you, or maybe you won't be able to handle it.

[00:25:37] We always have these stories as to why we shouldn't take that step that we want to take. Whether it's the step of leaving the agency that you're at and starting your practice, whether it's the step of making yourself more visible and maybe putting out a podcast or starting an Instagram and becoming more of like a personal brand, putting your voice and face out there, that's very scary.

[00:25:57] Whether it is doing like Jelisha has done and traveling. Leaving your home base and letting yourself wander and be free. These things are all scary and they'll probably always be scary. So there's so much wisdom in, as Jelisha says, doing it scared and realizing that we're never going to feel ready, it's never going to be comfortable. They are, by definition, uncomfortable experiences and that's also what is so beautiful about them, is whether there is that discomfort, that's where we have growth. That shows us that we are expanding ourselves and we are moving outside of what we already know, right into these new spaces. So appreciate Jelisha coming on the podcast today to share about her experiences and what it has taken to get her there.

[00:26:42] She is such a treat. You can check her out. We've got the link in the show notes where you can learn more about her. She also does things to support other therapists, so definitely take a look into Jelisha. If you're enjoying the podcast, it's always helpful if you can leave a review, on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, we'll put the link in the show notes that links to whatever app you use. It will connect you to a place where you can leave us a review. It is a great way for other therapists and health practitioners to find us and to be part of these conversations. Thanks so much for joining me today.