so self love is that capacity to take a step backward and look at your life, both as the actor on the stage, the director directing everything, and then the audience member witnessing everything. That's part of what self love is also about as well as looking at your life from an introspective perspective
β This is the Ask a Sex Therapist podcast, helping you change the way you look at sex. I'm Heather Shannon, and in a world full of sexual censorship, I'll give you the raw truth about pleasure, intimacy in your relationships, and enjoying your body. Because it's time for you to Ask a Sex Therapist.
βHello, hello, everybody. We are here with another fun and amazing guest episode. So today's guest is Jonathan Aslay. βAm I saying that right?
You said it perfectly.
Um, and Jonathan has kind of an interesting story. So the focus of one of America's leading midlife dating coaches has expanded into a deeper essential philosophy of what it truly means to love.
After losing his 19 year old son, Connor, in 2018, Jonathan Aslay's grief led him on a spiritual journey. It's a soul searching inner journey where he became aware of an often overlooked dimension of the dating conversation. He realized that the dating process reveals the most common emotional health issue faced by many singles seeking a partner, a distressing lack of self worth, self regard and self love.
Today he's on a mission to encourage both men and women to fully love themselves with his book. What the heck is self love anyway, packed with fun, engaging, spiritual and personal growth practices. So, thank you for that, Jonathan, and welcome to the show.
Well, thank you so much. It's so funny to hear my bio,
Isn't it always so weird?
Yeah, it's like, well, who's that guy?
why you're like, he sounds great. Oh wait, that's me.
he's going to say.
I don't know. We'll find out though. Um, I, I love that. Like really what comes through though is like, sure. Maybe it's about helping people find a partner, but it really does sound like it's just this general love. Like how do we become more loving?
Not just of someone else, but of ourself and in how that kind of impacts our relationships.
Well, when you think about it, our interpersonal relationship dramatically affects or can affect our emotional well being. So when I, And, and dating the dating conversation, you know, the relationship conversation really triggers this stuff like nobody's business. I mean, I can't imagine, you know, being a math professor and going, Oh, my God, it's going to affect us emotionally to the same degree, you know, our interpersonal relationships do.
And maybe mathematics does, I don't know.
Maybe do you like love it so deeply? Maybe it goes back to the love.
Yeah,
It's possible. Yup.
you know, I mean, this is like so much of our biology is driven by our desire for physical intimacy that that plays another component to this, you know, equation called self love and interpersonal relationship and all that good stuff.
So I'm kind of curious just from reading your bio, like, how did your son's passing lead to the, like, I want to hear the connection. Like how did that path happen to you becoming this, you know, kind of popular YouTuber dating coach guy?
So, and thank you for asking, you know, it's interesting as I write prior to him passing away, I began studying the Course in Miracles
Oh, interesting.
and, and interestingly enough, at the chapter that I was on happened to center around death and the Course in Miracles, the idea of the Course in Miracles, the way I look at it, the true miracle is when we can Choose love over fear when we can choose love over ego, when we can choose love and compassion versus judgment, resentments and all these things.
So, so his passing was timely because I was studying this concept of love in a way that I hadn't really looked at. And at the same time I'd been blogging, I had done a lot of blogs, like what does self love mean kind of
Mm hmm.
And so in, in, and, and let me add this to the equation. When I was giving his eulogy, which was two weeks from the time he had passed, or actually 10 days from the time he passed, I, I said to everybody, I remember stopping and I said, look, we can all grieve through suffering.
Or we can grieve through love and, and, and I didn't know what I was saying in that moment. I was just saying it kind of thing, but I had this,
pretty good.
yeah, well, I'm kind of patting myself on the back a little bit, but there was this, there was this kind of like, okay, how can I look at this experience? Instead of suffering through it, how can I cherish his memory?
Know that he would want me to live my life to the fullest. I mean, he was a kid that would want me to live life balls to the wall kind of life.
He
And so I began thinking about what does it really mean to love for me? And, and the most important thing about self love is it's, or at least the way I perceive it, it's all of these juicy words like self worth, self reliance, self esteem, self confidence, self discipline, all just wrapped up in a nice tidy bow, the heart of love.
So. And, and what I believe is when we can actually begin to love ourselves, it's an antidote. It's like a vaccination to emotional chaos in a way.
Say more about that. Cause like, we're all going through a lot of emotional chaos in the world lately.
exactly. So, and, and it's an introspective way of looking at life. So that's kind of where this got birthed was he was the catalyst for me, but, um, and he's also been, you know, like that experience of even death made me look at. Oftentimes our greatest, if we ever look at a root fear, if you get to the root, root, root of fear, it's always, I'm going to die.
Yeah,
agree with you on that one where there's like this ego death, I think, especially that we're afraid of and so many things that you're saying. So I didn't read a course in miracles, but I was a practicing Buddhist for 13 years. And I do think that a lot of different spiritual paths point to that. Towards the same place.
So everything you're saying about, like, uh, reminds me of the Buddhist phrase, like, you know, pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. In terms of, like, how you approach the chaos and the, the emotions that come up, especially with grieving your son, is, like, really worth thinking about? Because I, I do think that that happens in many ways, you know, in relationships and in the dating process.
I actually, and I'm only going to touch upon this for a moment when I, after he passed away about six months later,
Mm hmm.
did a psilocybin journey
Ooh, interesting.
and I wanted to connect with him and connect with the other side, if you will, which I had an amazing visitation from him. Um,
Oh, wow.
And and since then, I mean, well, since, by the way, I've been blessed because I've had so many visitations from him in a variety of different ways since he
Yeah.
But why I'm bringing this up is I really begin part of love is at least in my purview. My way of looking at things is is kind of establishing. What happens when we pass away or at least my interpretation of it. So I've done 30 ceremonies of, you know, psilocybin ceremonies really kind of, I don't want to say conquering the fear of death, but embracing this experience.
And be as loving as I possibly can to myself, because I believe we come back and do this over again, just in a different format.
Mm hmm. Yeah.
the other catalyst that he brought into my life was a real curiosity about, you know, what happens when we die and overcoming the fear of death, which I haven't done.
I'm just working on it. So,
Yeah. So I've had moments though, like I think I've had some like meditative moments where I'm like, Oh, I'm like not afraid in this moment. That's amazing because I never thought I could be unafraid of death. Um, It always shocks me when people are like, oh, yeah, I'm not afraid of death. Whatever. I'm like, really?
Well, there's a byproduct of also trusting That everything is going to work out like, I mean, to some degree, whenever you're feeling angst, whenever you're feeling discourse is just also surrendering to the experience and trusting that in some way, shape, or form, it's going to work out.
100 percent I love that. Um, so, okay. So let's segue into that. How do you become like a dating guru guy?
Nobody goes to college to become a dating and relationship coach.
There's always an interesting path.
I'll try to give the cliff note version, but after turning 40 and going through a divorce a decade and a half ago, I found myself back in the dating marketplace. And there was this thing called online
Oh, gosh.
you know, Back in the early 2000s, and I thought you could punch up exactly what you want and someone would magically appear, which it did and I and I had a great for I remember my first date.
Really nice date. Nice woman. Something wasn't right. Another date. Nice woman. Something wasn't right. Another date. Nice woman. Something wasn't right. And after 100 Internet dates in 1 year, 1st dates. I realized that something wasn't right with me.
Okay.
And what was happening though, was I was making connections with people all across the country.
And in some cases, just talking on the phone, sharing our divorces, sharing our experiences. And in a way it was therapy for me. I didn't realize that this was a cathartic experience, but Heather, what was happening was women would reach out to me, women I never met just because I'm talking incessantly. Because it was kind of a, it was kind of a self medication too.
I can see that. And I see people who approach dating that way. Yeah.
And I, you know, like I was a serial, I was actually a serial talker, but what was happening is women would reach out to me and say, Hey, Jonathan, would you look at my dating profile and help me make it better? Like, No, I swear to God.
with them, and then they'd be like, well, I guess we're not going to date, but help
Yeah, but well, because sometimes they live 500 miles away. It was
That makes sense.
and by the way, I would sometimes had I had some at some days I had six text message boxes.
This is back when Yahoo personals had like these. You could separate them. I could have six conversations going on at the same time.
oh for sure.
Well, because I was an emotional train wreck at this time, I was this complete gigantic emotional train wreck. So this was my drug of choice, but they were asking me to improve their profile.
So I'd say, do this, this, this, and then a month later. Jonathan, I've got this date with this guy. Will you look at his dating profile and tell me what you think of that him?
Yeah interesting
sense. I could tell the serial daters, the serial monogamous, the bad boys, the nice guys, and the guy looking for you is what I jokingly say.
Um, and that's how this was birthed. Um, and also. Not only have I accumulated 20, 000 hours of coaching, I've also done over 3, 000 hours of personal development workshops, trainings, videos, books. I've immersed myself in understanding human behavior. So that's kind of how this all got started.
Gosh, that's amazing. And it's, I, I get what you're saying, where it can be like your drug of choice, because there's a lot of dopamine hits in there of like, Ooh, this person liked me. Ooh, this person's so cute. You know? Or like, Oh, I feel neat. Even with like the six chats open at once, you could be like, Ooh, these people need me.
You're like, I'm helpful. I'm being validated in some way. And, and I think whether we're like single or in relationships, we can kind of be looking towards other people. Yeah. To make us feel how we want to feel.
Well, if you look at, you know, here in the United States anyways, we're suckling on the nipple of, I need you to validate me so I can feel good about myself. I mean, we are addicted to that.
Yes. Yeah,
Um, And so self love is that capacity to take a step backward and look at your life, both as the actor on the stage, the director directing everything, and then the audience member witnessing everything. That's part of what self love is also about as well as looking at your life from an introspective perspective.
I think that's right. And that's something like in the past when I've struggled emotionally, it's been very easy for me to be like, I need to call my dad and then I need to call my friend. Then he's like, I need like other people to come for me and other people to kind of give me the answers and, and fix it and figure it out.
And, um, for me, it's like, it can definitely lead to, uh, yeah. I guess some kind of codependency, you know, where it's like I'm not turning to myself. And what I notice is I can still turn to other people. It's good to have a support system. But if I turn to myself first and do my journaling or go on a walk or feel my feelings and cry or whatever it is that I need and then process it, I'm not like dumping on other people as much, you know, it's like it, to me, it like elevates the relationships a bit.
Yeah.
time, like I have friends and I go, look, I need to vomit. And, and so I'm, I'm, I'm letting them know in advance or when I say friends, I mean my emotional support community. Look, I just need to get this out. I need to vent.
I need to vomit. Just hold space. But at the same time, I'm going to go look, you know me. I want your perspective on this. So let's process this too. And I think we all need a good confidant in our life, preferably more than one. Um, And whether they come to a coach like us to start
Mm hmm.
or a therapist, I should say, um, is I'm an, I encourage everyone to have a really good community of confidants in their life because we, we need to, you know, like, it's like a, when you said vent, um, like a volcano vents to erupt that the buildup of pressure, we all need that, I believe for a healthier wellbeing.
Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. And, you know, I, I like what you're saying about having ideally more than one person because it does seem like. There's less community than there used to be, um, you know, decades ago and even sometimes, uh, you know, I've spent, uh, I did a study abroad in Europe and have traveled a bit and sometimes you just see, like, um, people gathered in the square just hanging out and talking and, you know, there's not, I feel like there's not quite as much of that in the U.
S. It feels like, like, I'm from Chicago and I think even living in Chicago, it was like, There's so many of us in like this small, relatively small space. It's like densely populated. And yet it's kind of like, we're just ships passing in the night, you know? And then we go back to like our little apartments, this little box we live in.
And then we like go out and face the world again. And I'm like, Oh, that kind of bums me out. Like, I think, I don't know. It feels almost more of like a draining way of coexisting instead of like a supportive communal way of existing.
I think we're in in human, in human, in our human experience, I think we're going through an evolution. And so this isn't by accident, if you will.
Mm hmm.
Um, and certainly up until about. You know, 100 plus years ago, people did live in tribes and villages in small towns. I'll, let's go back maybe 50 or 60 years ago.
And there's certainly been a shift from that tribal community type of village, if you will, to more, but I also think this is a great opportunity at the same time to, to embrace Individual empowerment to embrace emotional maturity to embrace self love. I'll come back and I'll even bring it to that concept is that we're given.
And by the way, as you said, You know, it is through our pain that we can grow, you know, I mean, it is through, you know, pain is inevitable and yet suffering is optional, as you said, the pain is an opportunity to work on oneself. And so I use the dating conversation really is my bully pulpit to encourage personal development,
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
um, as an antidote, as I said, to emotional chaos.
Hmm. I like that. I think that makes a lot of sense, too, that, um, Yeah. Dating is just sort of the vehicle, you know, but there's, there's lots of vehicles. Um, and the idea is kind of growth and it's, it's so easy also to kind of resist the challenges. And you know, I've been guilty myself at times of like, Oh, I can't deal with online dating anymore. It's like the pain is too much. It's led to the sadness. Suffering and I'm just going to opt out. Um, but then that could also be his own suffering. So it's really, it's like, you can't escape pain. I think it's
you just said, online dating didn't do anything to you. Okay. You know, I
debatable, debatable, Jonathan.
pardon me.
I said, that's debatable.
Well, I meant the portal that you're swiping through is just a vehicle. Right. And so, and honestly, it's the word dating. Okay. So I jokingly say this and I, it is okay if I curse.
Oh, please.
Okay, so do you know why they call it dating?
No.
Because holy fucking shit, it's insane trying to figure out another human being was taken in the dictionary, so they replaced it with the word dating.
Oh,
fucking shit, it's insane trying to figure out another human being. Okay, I'm being tongue in cheek, okay?
In other words, to really get to know another human being in a romantic sense, we have this thing called dating.
Mm hmm.
What, and, and on the online courses, really not dating, it's just meeting. It's just a vehicle to meet people, to see if you want to explore something together.
Yeah. I like that framework. Mm hmm.
But we've adopted this, I have to impress you.
And I have to look good as our methodology for dating. In other words, it's heavily weighted on romance and not the really most important question that should be answered in the dating process. And that is. Who is the truth about who you are? What is the truth about who you are? That's the question, but most people are oblivious to that question of who's the truth about who you are as a person because Heather, unlike 100 years ago, when we made it in our tribes, we knew everybody.
We knew their truth.
That's true. There was more context. And I think that's one of the tough things about meeting people online is there's no context. You got to
Yeah, there's there's strangers.
Right.
And so, and we have a fear of being vulnerable and we have a fear of just even asking the deeper questions, you know, because it's not romantic. It's not sexy. It's not like, like, I mean, a first date question isn't like, what do you do for a living? A first date question is what's your greatest fear around relationships?
That would be like a really radically honest question that Adam's asked
How do people react when you're like clients and audience asks that? I'm so curious. Like
Well, so. It's overwhelming because we haven't as a species developed enough emotional maturity, emotional resilience, enough self love to not take that personally. It's a valid question, but here's the way we date. We go out on a few dates, we have sex, and all of a sudden you're attached to a person who could be completely misaligned with you and then they wonder why dating is so frustrating.
Right. And then they would get married and they're like, oops, did we not use this on the right criteria?
exactly.
Um, yeah, that's true. I mean. It's not, it's not easy. And it's like the, the sexy romantic part is fun. And back to the dopamine hits way more fun endorphins and neurotransmitters going with the sexy time, but yeah, often it is sexy time with a stranger.
So I'm, so that brings us more to the sex topic. Like what are your, um, I guess, thoughts, wisdom on sex and dating.
Well, I try to have it as frequently as possible. Uh, that's
Highly
you know, the challenge is I'm a guy. Okay. I want to have sex with everybody. You know, I mean, I'm pretty, I mean, that's kind of an exaggeration, but to some degree, my threshold for whom I've had sex with is much lower than my threshold of who I want to be in relationship with.
So,
that makes sense.
and, and most men operate that way. So as a, and by the way, I coach women to. My, my job is to help women spot the emotionally broken men because I was an emotionally broken man. I know what that looks like. I share from that experience. So, so, um, you know, I mean, sex is also a really beautiful thing. It's a really wonderful thing.
It's a way to connect at a level that you really can't through words. Um, so, you know, I, you know, when a person has sex, that should be, you know, that's their choice. But I do believe that once we're physically intimate with someone, particularly women more so than men, they bond more. I think you should be radically selective on whom you connect with on a sexual level.
In fact, I was, Listening to a podcast on Lewis Howes, um, school of greatness. And he had a guest speaker on just a few weeks ago who said, kissing is the, like he was talking about kissing is an exchange of connection, but it's also an exchange of baggage and I thought that would, and I'm paraphrasing this, so please forgive me, but you're bringing all your past luggage into this kiss, you're also bringing the desire for connection in this case.
But in other words. Even kissing is a relatively intimate experience and we trivialize it. Um, but if you look at the movie Pretty Woman, you know, Julia Roberts said, I'm not going to kiss you, that's too intimate. She'll have sex with you.
True.
So even kissing has an exchange of, of bonding in it. So maybe it's important to be even selective with whom we kiss, or at least make out with anyway.
yeah. I think everything you're saying makes so much sense and I like that you're not putting sort of like, uh, a number of dates or like a framework. It's like, it, it's going to be different for everybody but, you know, as much as, you know, my, my feminist mind wants to be like, but women are equal or whatever.
It's, I do think in this area there's some biological differences where, um, There is research that shows that women tend to get attached after sex. And what I have come across is that men only tend to get more attached if they're already emotionally invested before the sex. So it's not that they don't, it probably just depends on the guy and it depends how invested he is to begin with.
Well, I think biologically speaking, as men age, their testosterone levels drop and their estrogen levels increase. So by the time, and I'm a tail end baby boomer, just to give you some context. So yeah, I do get attached physically because I am, especially if I have an emotional connection. If I don't have an emotional connection, Well, I'm at a point in my life where I don't need to chase sex anymore.
So I'm looking for a heart on to go with my heart on.
It's so cute.
and I, I didn't coin that. I heard that from a friend.
very cute. Yeah.
so, but yeah, when I was younger, it was like, how, you know, who can I have sex with? I was like sex on the brain. Um, I think, you know, and you mentioned feminist movement. I'm all in favor of empowerment for both men and women.
I mean, just to be individually empowered. That's kind of what self love means to me is to be empowered. You know, the challenge with sex though, and I'm, I'm beginning to believe it should be more sacred. I'm,
Mm hmm.
don't mean that from an evangelical perspective. But I do believe that, you know, it is an intimate act
Yeah.
and reserve it for someone that you have potential for not, you know, I just want to get off kind of thing.
And I'm just more encouraging that, but at the same time, if you want to get off and two
If it's working for you, I thought it's like if it's either it's working for you or it's not, you know, like let your own feelings about it Dictate the direction you go in but I mean, I think factually too from like a biological standpoint, you know If you have a vagina, you're gonna be more likely to get the STI than the person with the penis Right.
And so like, there's, there is like a higher physical risk if you're still menstruating, you know, you have the higher risk of getting pregnant and your entire life being thrown into upheaval than if, if you're the person with the penis. So
and if you think about prior to 1960, you know, prior to the invention of birth control, which changed everything
Yeah, I did. That's not that long ago.
No, I mean, yes, you're right. It's only 60 plus years ago. Is that there was a more sacredness because there was a consequence for having sex with the wrong, you know,
Yes. Yes. And there's still, there are still some consequences.
but not, I mean, even in STD, you can take penicillin and get over it. Kind of thing. I mean, for the most part.
But I mean, like, I've had to take the Plan B pill a couple times, and it's like, that messes me up for months, you
Oh, it did.
oh, yeah,
Oh yeah. That's right. It is a, it
the hormones in that, like, mess up, it's not just me, like, a lot of women, you know? So it's like, we have consequences that, you know, that, uh, the people with the penis don't.
So, so I, I think that's part of it too. And I guess for me, for my self love, um, there also has to be sort of like, okay, this other person has to be kind of bought in. Like we need to be able to have a conversation about like, if the condom breaks and I accidentally get pregnant, what are we going to do?
And like, if we can't have that conversation, then we probably shouldn't be having sex.
yeah, I'm in full agreement,
So
there's, well, I, well, let's, I want your opinion on something because there's a lot of conversation, particularly today that if women have had multiple, multiple sexual partners. Can they really, after a while, even bond in a healthy way when they meet a partner that actually has some potential?
I mean,
Oh, I think so. Yeah.
okay, because there's conversation to the contrary to that. So, and I'm not, again, I'm, I can only, I'm not speaking as a woman. I'm just asking it as a curiosity question.
depends on like are they just emotionally wounded to begin with and that's why they're having like lots of sex with lots of people or are they like empowered and they're very sexual beings and maybe they have a loving partner and they're in an open relationship. Like, a lot of it depends on the actual situation of the individual, I would say.
But yeah, I mean, I know people in open relationships who are very sexually active and also feel like they can be very, you know, connected and loving. Yeah.
Anyway, just, uh, just putting that out there as a
Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, so yeah, I'm curious, like with your coaching with people, like how do you, how do you navigate this stuff with them? Do you do one on one coaching or do you more of like a group program?
Oh,
um, pretty much majority of my coaching is one on one. I, I, and, and because I, it's individualized. So what I've observed is. Human beings don't really know themselves and know what they want. They all, but they do it from a place of, I think I know what I want. And Heather, how I know this is I put together a coaching, an eight week proprietary coaching program.
And what I hear every single time, every woman says the same thing to me after going through my coaching. Why, why did my parents teach me this? Why didn't I learn this in school? Why didn't I learn this before I married the wrong person? So it's, it's an extensive deep dive into clarity on who's compatible with them.
Number one. Number two, it's developing the radically honest questions, those vulnerable questions, to determine compatibility, and more importantly, to determine emotional maturity. And so, um, and interestingly enough, I've noticed something about women. And this is not a judgment, so please let me just say it and then we can unpack it. A lot of women believe that they are more emotionally mature than men. What I've observed though is most humans don't even, they might feel their feelings. But they don't really know how to identify what they're feeling. More importantly, how to express their feelings in a way that can be seen, heard and understood.
And just because women have a propensity to vomit a lot of information doesn't necessarily mean they're good at delivering it or even identifying it. Men are just flat stoic. They oftentimes just are shut down. From their feelings. I mean, again, this is generalized. This isn't an absolute. So one of the things I've noticed with my clients is, you know, I'm pressing them to really get to the core of what their needs are on an emotional level.
And this is painstaking work. I have clients say to me, this is hard, because really learning how to identify what you're feeling and then to be able to express it to someone else.
Yeah,
Challenging to say the least.
it is. And I mean, I'm also someone who's dated a lot, who's kind of recently making a little bit more effort to date again. And, um, it's not easy. And I think like what you're saying about, you know, Looking inward is important, sort of like allowing your relationships, whether they're, you know, short term dating or long term relationships or marriage, allowing your relationship to be like a mirror to yourself of, huh, like, what, what am I co creating here?
Like, how am I showing up? And, and how is that impacting? Like, what's being reflected back to me? Um, I think can be so interesting, but being It's tough because, you know, I'm sure even though I've also done thousands of hours of personal development, I'm sure I still have blind spots, you know, and, and also sometimes I think you need to be patient, um, for someone who is a good fit.
so it's, I want to share a perception and I want your take on it. Okay. Because, you know, we, we have right off the bat are, and I'm talking about human pair bonding,
Mm hmm.
We have right off the bat are instinctual gender. You know, scripts or programming. Okay, men are hunters, providers. Women are nurturers and gatherers, blah, blah, blah.
There's that, that first layer of programming and the next is our biological programming. And, you know, I mean, hormones, pheromones, all those things, testosterone, estrogen all plays a part in this. And then we have our socialization. Boys are taught to be a certain way. Girls are taught to be a
Mm hmm.
And even within that socialization, there's trauma associated with that, that, you know, boys are taught to stuff their emotions, women are objectified based on look, or girls, excuse me, boys stuff their emotions, violence equals masculinity, girls, it's all about beautification.
Mm hmm.
And then we have our imprinting.
What our parents did to us, whether we have love attachment style issues, whether we have, you know, uh, did we have gigantic trauma in our childhood or did we have garden variety bullying that happened in our childhood? And then you have your age and your life experiences play into this and oftentimes there's adult traumas of breakups and loving somebody and having a treasured relationship and and all the, you know, then you have your job and your work and all these kind of things and maybe even kids and then I'm going to keep going here.
So give me a
There's a lot. Yeah. Lots of
then we have our cultural and our religious programming that
And I work a lot with that. Yep.
And then we have our socioeconomic and our education. That's another part of our script. And then we have our physical health and appearance that has a script. And so when you look at, like, my, my son does coding and, you know, when you look at the, like, you write the 1st layer of code and the 2nd layer code and the 3rd layer code.
interesting way to view it. Yeah. We're
So we have all this code that plays into it, but we hear a lot of dating rhetoric, all centered around men are hunters, providers and women are nurture gatherers as if But you're not taking into account all this other fucking code
Thank you. Yes.
plays into this equation.
Right, right. And there's, there's, yeah, there's so much more than, and then there's like race, then there's like body size, and then there's like, you know, what you think you're good at, what you were taught are your strengths and weaknesses. And then if you have like neurodivergent, like there's just like infinite layers.
So, a, a person who becomes, they make the choice to be introspective. To be the, to be, and to me self awareness is like, um, You're the actor on stage. There's the director that's telling the actor what to do. And then there's the audience member witnessing it all. When you can look at life from those three vantage points and really take a step back in all of those spaces.
Mm hmm.
And recognize that life isn't about, you know, here in the United States, we are suckling on the nipple of victim consciousness. Um, and it is so prevalent now, but you are actually the actor, director and audience member of your life. It's a more empowered way to live. I believe, um, when you can approach life and understand that you're a flawed human being.
I'm sorry. We're all flawed human
Yeah. Can't avoid it. Sorry, everybody.
And like, and actually, if you can almost look at our actions from a place of, of curiosity, but even sometimes absurdity, you know, and, and why I say absurdity is, you know, we humans do the worst thing to ourselves and that's emotionally beat ourselves up. I mean, we are flogging ourselves in such many humans.
I don't mean all in such a horrific way. That the absurdity part is it's kind of laughable to look at house, you know, how absurd we are because What we should be doing is loving our ourself like we would love a little child or a pet.
know. And it, and then it impacts how your relationships go. So, I mean, I see that with my clients all the time where like when someone is already really hard on themselves, then it's very hard to take feedback from their partner. Right? Because it's like, Oh, you think I'm terrible and awful and I agree because part of me agrees with that.
It also thinks that, and then I just like can't even handle it. I'm in like a shame spiral and it's like, okay, well we need to work on some of that in order to be able to get through the dating issues or the sex issues or whatever it may be. Yeah. Um, how, how do you suggest people work on that? Yeah, that's like a tall
So to me, I'm laughing because I'm sorry because this this isn't funny what I'm about to say So I'm a big proponent of personal development self help spiritual
Yeah. Yeah.
so we've just said that we encompass that in self love dating is like the hunger games out there You is like a, it is like a fight to the death.
Okay. Doing this work on yourself
Yeah.
just puts the odds in your favor. Okay. The odds are against you. I'm sorry. I'm going to be blunt. I'm not going to be a dating coach that tells you this fantasy. The odds are against us.
Okay.
Okay, love is a risk,
It
but it's still the best game in town. It's worth it. It's worth getting into the hunger games and, but do that work ahead of time.
So you become the best candidate, you know, like in that show.
I like
You become Katniss Everdeen, you know,
that. So how do we become the Katniss of self love? Like, what does it look like? Do you do certain practices? Do you have to meditate? Like, how do you get there if you know you're being hard on yourself?
So it's everything, you know, I mean, we spend more time worrying about the shoes we're going to buy or the, you know, what we do at work and I'm being tongue in cheek here
That's true. And again, the dopamine. Wow.
believe an hour Of introspective work per day, whether it includes meditation, whether it includes your physical well being through yoga or some other discipline.
But most importantly, um, I, I look at it like learning how to play the piano. It's a practice you do every day and give yourself an hour of this practice. It might be listening to this podcast. And going, Oh, wait a minute. They recommended this book. Okay, let me get this book and let me start listening to that or reading that and let me watch a podcast and let me go to a workshop and training and let me work with a confidant, a friend.
Let me work with a therapist. I mean, I'm here to invite human beings. To go beyond an hour a day, but to really the, if, if the, I believe the richness in life is the inner journey.
Yeah.
I think that's where the richest part of life, it's not about putting your finger on top of the Eiffel tower and taking a picture.
So you did that, you know what I mean? It's great to see all those things, but your inner world, I think is the most amazing journey on this planet.
It's,
I'm a junkie for it.
I love that you listed so many things people can do. 'cause I'm a big believer, even though, I mean I actually work as a coach, but I'm licensed as a therapist. And personally I like, there's more freedom with the coaching for
Yeah, I agree.
But um, yeah, I'm not someone that's like, you have to only do therapy or you have to only like do coaching and have like someone else.
There's a million paths, like infinite to self-development. Like, tonight I'm doing an improv performance with my level 2 improv class. Like, that's become personal growth. You know, you do it because you're just like, Oh, let's goof around and have fun. And then you're like, Uh, our class is very therapeutic.
The first day we had to just gaze into people's eyes. Three different people for a minute each without talking. And then we did this whole exercise of like tuning into people's emotions and like saying out loud what we're observing about how they look or how they seem, sort of like their state that they're in emotionally.
Um, lots, yeah, lots of eye contact. Uh, we'd have to convey our emotions and practice accurately conveying. And the other person would have to like guess a character. So it's, it's really interesting, but I want people to kind of get out of the box of like, Yeah. growth needs to look a certain way or telling their partner, you need to go to therapy.
It's like, well, what if they need to just take a meditation class? What if they need to spend more time outdoors? What if
Well, now everybody needs therapy. Uh,
I'm a fan,
Okay. So, well, I, and I, and I, and I only wanted to tongue in cheek that one. Um, here's the challenge. Most of us, we are, we are at a state in our humanity, if you will, where we can actually, where we have the freedom because we're not here, at least in the United States, we're not worried about impending war or impending, you know, um, survival. We actually have the opportunity to be introspective, to grow at an emotionally mature rate, to be emotionally, you know, have some emotional
good point. Yeah. Like we're very lucky to be in that position of
Yeah. And, and by the way, you know, there's like 90 percent of the planet doesn't get this benefit. I mean, for the most part. So, um, but if you look at other countries, you know, like India, I mean, meditation and, and church and things like that are predominant.
It's all about their emotional wellbeing. So it's not like they don't have other modalities. Um, I think in relationship, it's very naive to say, I don't need to work on myself. I think it's actually. I mean, I don't want to say it's ignorance per se, but there is a level of ignorance. They're
there is. And
back at your past relationships is one starting point and not from the point of the vantage point of pointing the finger at the other person.
It's looking at those three fingers pointing back at you.
Yeah. I, I agree with you. I mean, I'm, I'm a big believer and it takes two to tango.
Yeah, taking personal responsibility and what self awareness is, is recognizing one's fears and insecurities and negative judgments of others and how our actions affect other people and our limiting beliefs and our negative patterns that bring us pain and the ability to shift to love, as I mentioned earlier.
Mm hmm.
When we are suffering
Can you share?
that's my invitation
It's a beautiful invitation. Can you share just a little bit about like, what was Jonathan like before? And then what is, what is the more self loving Jonathan? Obviously not perfect. Cause we've established you're not perfect, but how is it different now? And like, how do you think or behave differently?
Oh
if I in this I appreciate this question because as I reflect back in my 20s. I was very self centric. It was about and my identity was tied into my professional life And when I turned 40, I was going I went through a divorce Um, I lost my high end corporate job and I got wiped out in the market crash of 2008 and 9.
And I had a seven figure net worth. And so I had to move in with my mom and dad at age 40 in a 1, 000 square foot retirement community home because I was dead broke. So I had to have a humbling event. And I looked in the mirror and, you know, I didn't see anything back and I was like, I got to work on myself.
And most people use drugs and alcohol. Of course, my drug of choice end up being online dating, which thankfully turned into the profession I'm
one if you have to pick
it gave me some sense of purpose. Um, and, and if I look back at all of my experiences, I mean, it started with the first book I ever read was called, you can heal your life by Louise Hay.
And then there was the movie that was. 10 years before I got or years before I got married and then I The movie the secret came out and then I started to listen to tony robbins And then I listened to wayne dyer and I listened to abraham hicks and I started, you know learning about marianne williamson a lot of spiritual teachers and then I dated a therapist for six years and that was like
Okay!
It was like I mean I had a built in she just worked on my shit for six years.
Um And then I did the Hoffman process and then I did insight seminars and I got in, I went and did neuro linguistic programming and I did Reiki and I done so many different things cause I was thirsty for healing.
That's amazing.
It's that recognition that you want to heal and work on yourself once, once you become, and I became a junkie for it almost to an excess.
But that's because I lived a very self centric, egoic, selfish life. And I was a jackass to my ex wife and, and I wasn't a really good father. And it's taken me almost the better part of 20 years to really be a, a decent human being. Because we were raised to be self centric here in the United States. Um, and, and now I live life more.
And again, I've had humbling, by the way, losing my son wasn't the humbling event in my life. It was losing my identity.
Wow.
identity crushed me.
Okay.
So I had built all this emotional scaffolding through personal development, self help, spiritual work, and therapy. So by the time I lost my son, it didn't take me down.
Like it takes 90 percent of people out there, or I'm just making up that
And I mean that I, I feel like that with, like, if you show up for your practice, your practice will show up for you when you really need it. I have not lost a child, but I, um, I remember when I fell skiing and, uh, um, tore my ACL. Uh, I remember like I actually didn't freak out in panic.
I was like, let me just be present. And what will I do? I was like, this is crazy that I'm not freaking out. Um, but yeah, I think it is really worth putting the time in. So if people are like, Ooh, I like what this Jonathan guy is talking about. Like, how can they connect more with you?
Well, my name is listed here. So type it into Google, actually type it into YouTube. I, I record five, five live videos a week
Oh my gosh.
five live videos a week. I have, I mean, I'm constantly talking about, I use the dating conversation to really encourage individual growth. So go to my YouTube channel or type in my name on Google.
cool. Well, yeah, we'll link to your YouTube channel, uh, in the show notes as well. Um, thank you so much for being here with us and thank you for just sharing so openly about your journey and giving us some wisdom today.
β π Well, thanks. This has been a true pleasure and you're a great interviewer. So thank you.
Thank you, Jonathan. All right. Bye everybody. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you next week. π
β Thank you for listening to the Ask a Sex Therapist podcast. Got a question about spicing things up in the bedroom? Find the answers you're looking for in my Dirty Talk Guide, a free resource for my podcast listeners. Grab yours now at heathershannon. co forward slash dirty talk. Again, that's heathershannon.
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