Speaker: 00:00:00

And sometimes you get a little bit of that

sense with, with the biblical languages,

00:00:04,254 --> 00:00:08,133

where it's like when I read this in

English, you know, I have some questions.

00:00:08,133 --> 00:00:11,761

It doesn't all make sense for me, but

if only I could read it in Greek, then,

00:00:11,761 --> 00:00:15,390

like, all my questions would be answered

and all the problems would go away.

00:00:15,724 --> 00:00:18,476

And if you come to it that way,

then you're

00:00:18,476 --> 00:00:19,894

less likely to

00:00:19,894 --> 00:00:22,981

to use the original languages

and to use the tools that you have

00:00:22,981 --> 00:00:24,482

in a responsible way.

00:00:24,482 --> 00:00:28,361

And then more likely to end up,

you know, kind of importing meanings

00:00:28,361 --> 00:00:29,320

that aren't there, or

00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,575

like trying to load up one Greek word

with like a whole bunch of meaning that

00:00:33,742 --> 00:00:36,161

that one word can't really carry,

if you know what I mean.

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So it's the kind of the kind of magic

wand approach to biblical languages

00:00:39,456 --> 00:00:42,542

that, you know, want to kind of,

maybe discourage.

00:00:48,214 --> 00:00:52,385

Andrew Lamicela, Welcome

to the Anabaptist perspectives podcast.

00:00:52,552 --> 00:00:56,389

So you have spent a lot of time

studying biblical languages.

00:00:56,598 --> 00:00:58,683

You've taught at different places

and colleges

00:00:58,683 --> 00:01:00,393

and so forth on biblical languages.

00:01:00,393 --> 00:01:04,522

And I got to admit, I really don't know

anything about the Greek New Testament

00:01:04,522 --> 00:01:06,149

or Hebrew manuscripts

or anything like that.

00:01:06,149 --> 00:01:08,151

And I feel like I have a lot to learn.

00:01:08,151 --> 00:01:11,154

I feel like there's

there's some importance here about knowing

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where the Bible we have today comes from.

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So also, actually, I just heard you were

over in the Netherlands teaching is that.

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Tell me a bit about that.

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Like you just got back,

I think. Yeah, I got back.

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Just just a few weeks ago now.

00:01:23,208 --> 00:01:23,458

Yeah.

00:01:23,458 --> 00:01:26,461

It was, it was an opportunity

that opened up, pretty unexpectedly.

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Yeah.

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To teach,

basically like first year Greek,

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for an eight week term at a really small,

kind of evangelical,

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but American, kind of English based,

seminary in the Netherlands,

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just right outside of Amsterdam

or an international school.

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It's a lot of students

from, Africa and Asia, places like that.

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So That's that's really neat. So.

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Well, okay.

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So I think that the general piece I'm

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most curious about is lots of scholars

have translated the Bible.

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We have an English Bible.

00:01:58,076 --> 00:02:00,787

Why does studying biblical languages

even matter?

00:02:00,787 --> 00:02:03,581

You know what?

How is this relevant to us today?

00:02:03,581 --> 00:02:06,417

And I think that's the big piece

that I would I would like to,

00:02:07,669 --> 00:02:09,295

understand more.

00:02:09,295 --> 00:02:12,173

why does it even matter to study

biblical languages.

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Like why did you put all this time

and effort into learning this?

00:02:15,176 --> 00:02:16,678

Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question.

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I think maybe a

a good kind of place to start,

00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,851

is just to, to acknowledge that,

you know, we all speak English.

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We have great Bible translations

in English.

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But the way that Scripture comes to us

is not in not in English, but it's,

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it's it's in Greek and Hebrew.

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And so if we want to be maybe really,

00:02:33,153 --> 00:02:37,157

serious and have,

yeah, I don't know, put in

00:02:37,157 --> 00:02:40,827

maybe the extra effort to get as close

as we can, to Scripture

00:02:40,827 --> 00:02:43,830

and as close as we can to

the original, documents,

00:02:43,872 --> 00:02:47,000

studying,

the languages that it was written in.

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It gets us.

00:02:47,792 --> 00:02:49,127

It gets us that little bit closer.

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It's like getting closer to the action.

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Maybe in a way,

there's nuances you can pick up.

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There's differences in translation,

that can you can

00:02:57,969 --> 00:03:01,097

you can start to understand, like,

why does the ESV say this?

00:03:01,097 --> 00:03:04,184

But the King James said this,

and the NIV says something even different.

00:03:04,184 --> 00:03:06,311

And you can,

if you studied the languages,

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you can start to have, more of a sense

for why those differences are there.

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So, yeah, it's a, it's a

00:03:11,774 --> 00:03:14,819

way of, of maybe taking your,

your kind of Bible knowledge

00:03:14,819 --> 00:03:18,364

and your, your, your study tools,

so to speak, to the next level.

00:03:18,364 --> 00:03:20,617

Kind of like, upgrading your toolbelt,

maybe.

00:03:20,617 --> 00:03:22,785

Let's say something like that. Yeah.

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And so you spent obviously a lot of time

right doing this.

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Can you tell me a little bit about that

journey.

00:03:29,167 --> 00:03:32,170

Like how many years

have been been in this, this.

00:03:33,004 --> 00:03:34,797

I don't know what you would call it.

Field sector.

00:03:34,797 --> 00:03:36,174

Yeah. Journey.

00:03:36,174 --> 00:03:36,424

Yeah.

00:03:36,424 --> 00:03:39,427

It'd be, it'd be interesting just to hear

a little bit of that story as well.

00:03:39,802 --> 00:03:42,639

yeah, I mean, I was, I was very,

very privileged, very fortunate to have a

00:03:42,639 --> 00:03:45,892

a pretty solid head start,

I guess I'd say with, with studying Greek.

00:03:46,559 --> 00:03:48,519

So I was homeschooled and,

00:03:49,562 --> 00:03:52,023

yeah, when I was maybe high school,

but I think even a few years

00:03:52,023 --> 00:03:53,149

before high school,

00:03:53,149 --> 00:03:56,319

my parents felt that, like,

hey, it would be really useful for me

00:03:56,319 --> 00:03:59,322

and my brother to,

to start studying NT Greek.

00:03:59,322 --> 00:04:02,158

So my mom, I'm not exactly

sure how she how she did this, but she,

00:04:02,158 --> 00:04:03,785

she actually found, a textbook

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that's very widely used in seminaries

and Bible colleges.

00:04:07,622 --> 00:04:10,208

And so we we got this textbook,

me and my brother and,

00:04:10,208 --> 00:04:13,294

yeah, we just kind of started

working through it, just on our own.

00:04:13,294 --> 00:04:15,380

We just take the next chapter

and do the exercises.

00:04:15,380 --> 00:04:16,714

And so that was, Wow.

00:04:16,714 --> 00:04:19,342

So you were just, like,

self-teaching yourself Greek Yeah.

00:04:19,342 --> 00:04:21,928

I mean, there were there were lectures

that came with it, but. Yeah. Yeah.

00:04:21,928 --> 00:04:24,806

And I think just one of us on our own,

it probably wouldn't have worked,

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but we had each other

to kind of bounce things off of.

00:04:27,225 --> 00:04:28,768

So yeah. So that was where it started.

00:04:28,768 --> 00:04:33,606

I did take some classes then, with

the fairly typical,

00:04:33,606 --> 00:04:34,816

you might say, kind of grammar

100

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and translation approach, through college

and then a bit in seminary as well.

101

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And then

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I also had, the opportunity

to spend a lot of time with,

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with a couple friends of mine

that had studied Greek in using more of a,

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like, communicative

method where you actually like,

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you tell stories

and you actually interact in the language,

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so you don't just learn the language

by kind of reading a textbook

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and then like doing a translation,

but you actually learn it by, you know,

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using props and using toys and like,

telling stories and like, hey,

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these three lions went for a walk

and it's all in Greek.

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And you kind of like, unpack it and you

gradually, like, build in complexity.

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So I had the privilege to spend,

some time with them pretty regularly.

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Over, I don't know, a few years.

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And I was able to.

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Yeah, kind of connect

maybe the grammar that I had studied

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and some of the more kind of technical

and abstract, elements of it

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with like a living language approach

and kind of bring these two together.

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So, yeah, it's, it's been a it's

been a great journey.

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And it's honestly, I was, I would say,

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very privileged both in how

I was able to get started early

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and then in having these, these friends,

there available at the right time.

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Yeah.

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so we're going to pivot a little bit here

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and ask, maybe

what sounds kind of like a basic question.

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Probably should be asked

what even is the Greek New Testament like?

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We just I think we all kind of know.

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Okay. Yeah.

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The the Bible, it wasn't

written in English, so it was something.

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What's the Greek New Testament?

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Honestly, what are

what are the manuscripts that make it up?

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What are some common misconceptions

surrounding that as well? Or.

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Yeah, just some some context there.

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I feel like we could go

a little deeper into that.

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Yeah, yeah,

yeah. No, it's a great question.

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Maybe, maybe, like,

the kind of obvious place to start.

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And I think people generally know

this is that,

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of course, we don't have the original,

manuscripts that the apostle

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Paul or Matthew

or Luke would have originally written.

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So, you know, Luke writes his gospel

wherever that original document went.

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Well, it's lost. We don't have it anymore.

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What we have, of course, are copies

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and lots and lots of copies

and copies of copies of copies.

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So there's

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there's all of these kind of copies

that are out there, and some of them are,

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have been found in Egypt

and some in, you know,

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kind of various places

throughout the ancient world.

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It turns out we have a total of around

5800.

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I think it is

manuscripts of the New Testament.

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Now, of course, those are

those are not all all the same. Right.

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So, some of them are pretty late.

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They come from maybe,

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you know, the year 1100 or something,

and then they're not worth as much.

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Some are quite early,

from the early centuries.

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And then, of course, some are full.

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They'll have the whole New Testament

and then some are,

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you know, very, very partial.

156

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So, one of the very oldest is called

P 52.

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So papyrus

52, and it's this tiny little fragment

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and it's about the size of a credit card,

Oh okay.

159

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So really really small.

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Okay.

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got, we've got all these manuscripts

but they come in very

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different shapes and sizes.

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I think that's an important piece

because it's pretty easy

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to be like oh the Greek New Testaments

like this, this book.

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Yeah.

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And it was all nice and compiled

and ready to go for the translators.

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That's not really the case

then, I suppose.

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right.

169

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So there's kind of that,

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that intermediate step

between we've got all these manuscripts

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in different shapes and sizes.

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And then how do we actually get to

like a kind of solid Greek text

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where when we go to translating it

to English, you know,

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we kind of know what we're working off.

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So kind of in between there is this whole

process called textual criticism.

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Criticism. You know, it

kind of sounds like a bad word.

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It sounds like we're criticizing the text.

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But what it really means is kind of like

textual analysis, basically.

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So there's kind of a whole,

a whole like set of scholars,

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this whole kind of subdiscipline,

you might say, within biblical studies,

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called textual criticism.

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So basically what they do is they'll say,

okay, here's all these manuscripts.

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We have pretty good ideas of when, each

manuscript was, was written approximately.

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So like this one's from the third century.

So that's really old.

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This one's from the 10th century.

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So that's not worth as much.

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Also where the manuscript was discovered,

so the kind of

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historical origin plays a role.

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So basically there's

this kind of whole field,

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where they'll look at all the manuscripts

and then kind of compile,

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a sort of best guess, let's say,

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on on

what the original text would have been.

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So it's kind of a process of,

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of putting all of those together

and doing your best to, to reconstruct.

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It's like a, a process of reconstruction

and what the original text

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would have been. Of course,

there's always some controversy in there.

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And like, you know, exactly

how should the wording be in some cases?

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But the, the, the overall the overall

picture is, is really, really strong.

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Like if you put, if you look at all

those manuscripts kind of side to side,

200

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just like beside each other,

they, they agree

201

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like very, very much of the time.

202

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So we can,

we can have quite a lot of confidence

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that even though we don't have,

you know, for example,

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Luke's original Gospel of Luke,

we have so many good copies of it

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that we can we can know within

just a very, very small, margin of error

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what he wrote.

207

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Yeah, with only a few places

of kind of disagreement.

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That's kind of phenomenal actually,

because if you're thinking about

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all these people in all these

different places, writing copies of Luke,

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like you're saying, not all

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these manuscripts are found in one place,

of course,

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because the early church is spreading

all around the Roman Empire, say,

213

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and then we can pull all these all these

years later and they actually match up.

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Yeah, that's kind of wild, right?

215

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

216

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So I think that's

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one of the challenges

when people hear, oh, it's

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especially when you like things

like textual criticism, for example,

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or having to compile all this and well,

what if we got something wrong and like,

220

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all this stuff, what you're saying is,

oh no, no, no, no, we have like

221

00:10:01,642 --> 00:10:05,021

a very high degree of confidence

that this is accurate.

222

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This was transmitted correctly.

223

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Yeah. Do you want to do

you want to say any more of that?

224

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Because I feel like that might be

one of one of the big misconceptions

225

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when it comes to Bible manuscripts

or the Greek New Testament.

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I don't know if.

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Yeah, if you have any more

you want to add there.

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yeah yeah I mean there's,

there's definitely, you know, places

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a lot of them are pretty small,

but there's definitely places

230

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where we don't know for sure, you know,

what the wording was in a particular case.

231

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But yeah,

when it comes to the big picture, yeah.

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The, the agreement between the manuscripts

is, is,

233

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something

we can put a lot of confidence in.

234

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Yeah, yeah,

I think I think there is, like you said,

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maybe a bit of a misconception around the

some of the time,

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especially where you have

the kind of scenario where,

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some of the older Bible translations,

like maybe, you know, the King James

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new King James that we're very familiar

with and, and they're great translations.

239

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The King James is a beautiful translation.

240

00:10:55,529 --> 00:10:56,781

It's so well done.

241

00:10:56,781 --> 00:10:59,784

You know, given the kind of historical

setting it was, it was done in,

242

00:11:00,284 --> 00:11:03,245

but if you compare that

with some of the more modern versions

243

00:11:03,245 --> 00:11:07,750

like the ESV and the NIV and others,

sometimes, you know,

244

00:11:07,792 --> 00:11:10,878

you'll see a verse or a sentence

that appears in the King James

245

00:11:11,170 --> 00:11:14,131

and then it doesn't appear

in, say, the NIV or the ESV.

246

00:11:14,423 --> 00:11:18,177

And sometimes it you know,

people are maybe, somewhat mistaken

247

00:11:18,177 --> 00:11:21,597

in thinking that the modern translations

have kind of removed the verse.

248

00:11:21,806 --> 00:11:23,224

And sometimes you hear this kind of like,

249

00:11:23,224 --> 00:11:25,726

oh, they're taking verses out of the Bible

kind of thing.

250

00:11:25,726 --> 00:11:26,519

Yeah.

251

00:11:26,519 --> 00:11:28,437

But what's what's going on there? Right.

252

00:11:28,437 --> 00:11:30,606

You know,

everyone has the story of Thomas Jefferson

253

00:11:30,606 --> 00:11:34,110

kind of chopping sections out of his Bible

that that's not what's going on.

254

00:11:34,110 --> 00:11:34,360

Right?

255

00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,780

So so Thomas Jefferson's not on the

translation committee for the NIV, right.

256

00:11:38,364 --> 00:11:41,909

But what what is going on

is that there's, you know,

257

00:11:41,909 --> 00:11:44,495

some manuscripts

would have had that sentence.

258

00:11:44,495 --> 00:11:45,996

And when the King James translators

259

00:11:45,996 --> 00:11:49,500

did their work,

fewer manuscripts had been discovered.

260

00:11:49,875 --> 00:11:52,586

And so they were working

with a narrower set of manuscripts.

261

00:11:52,586 --> 00:11:56,173

And so they, they went with what they had

and their manuscripts had that sentence.

262

00:11:56,757 --> 00:12:00,553

Now, you know, fast forward

into the 20th and 21st centuries,

263

00:12:00,553 --> 00:12:03,097

you know, the translators of the NIV,

just, for example,

264

00:12:03,097 --> 00:12:08,018

have a much broader pool of manuscripts

and, you know, that translation committee,

265

00:12:08,310 --> 00:12:13,232

they'll look at all of those and they're

honest and educated opinion would be that

266

00:12:13,441 --> 00:12:17,027

that sentence probably didn't,

you know, appear in the original text.

267

00:12:17,361 --> 00:12:19,572

So it's not a matter of,

you know, cutting things out.

268

00:12:19,572 --> 00:12:21,323

It's a matter of doing the best

269

00:12:21,323 --> 00:12:24,910

we can, to reconstruct

what that original text would have been.

270

00:12:25,494 --> 00:12:26,120

Yeah.

271

00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,457

So, so when we're thinking

about biblical languages

272

00:12:29,457 --> 00:12:31,584

and Bible manuscripts, all this stuff,

273

00:12:32,668 --> 00:12:36,630

why I'm trying

to think how to phrase this, but basically

274

00:12:36,630 --> 00:12:40,843

convince me why I should care about

biblical languages, so to speak, I guess.

275

00:12:40,843 --> 00:12:41,093

Right.

276

00:12:41,093 --> 00:12:45,681

Like if, if you had to give a pitch of

why should people care?

277

00:12:46,015 --> 00:12:48,017

I yeah, I'd love to hear that.

278

00:12:48,017 --> 00:12:49,518

Whether that's Greek or Hebrew or,

you know,

279

00:12:49,518 --> 00:12:52,521

any any of the biblical language,

I guess, Aramaic as well.

280

00:12:53,272 --> 00:12:55,274

There's some portions of Bible in Aramaic.

281

00:12:55,274 --> 00:12:58,194

Yeah. Why? Why should I care? Yes. yeah.

282

00:12:58,194 --> 00:13:01,614

I mean, I guess the short answer is

we should care, at least to some degree.

283

00:13:02,198 --> 00:13:03,365

About the biblical languages.

284

00:13:03,365 --> 00:13:04,575

If we care about the Bible.

285

00:13:04,575 --> 00:13:07,578

Right.

This is this is God's message to us.

286

00:13:07,703 --> 00:13:09,538

And these are the languages

it was written in.

287

00:13:09,538 --> 00:13:11,624

So I'm I'm always quick.

288

00:13:11,624 --> 00:13:15,377

I try to be quick to point out that,

you know, studying biblical languages

289

00:13:15,377 --> 00:13:16,629

is really worth it.

290

00:13:16,629 --> 00:13:20,174

There's a lot to be gained, but it's not

something that everyone has to do.

291

00:13:20,216 --> 00:13:20,508

Right?

292

00:13:20,508 --> 00:13:24,136

So I don't at all think, and I wouldn't

want people to get the idea

293

00:13:24,512 --> 00:13:26,889

that,

you know, in order to be a good Christian

294

00:13:26,889 --> 00:13:29,892

or even in order to be a good,

I don't know, pastor or Bible teacher,

295

00:13:30,226 --> 00:13:33,687

that you have to, like,

put in all of the effort to actually kind

296

00:13:33,687 --> 00:13:37,608

of learn the language,

to, you know, get in all the vocabulary

297

00:13:37,608 --> 00:13:39,527

and all the grammar

and kind of go the whole distance.

298

00:13:40,945 --> 00:13:41,821

But I do

299

00:13:41,821 --> 00:13:44,824

think that in whatever capacity,

whether it's just for personal study,

300

00:13:45,032 --> 00:13:45,574

for teaching,

301

00:13:45,574 --> 00:13:50,329

whatever it is, having a sense of

maybe how to use the languages in a way

302

00:13:50,329 --> 00:13:54,917

that's responsible,

is is important, I would say.

303

00:13:55,459 --> 00:13:55,751

Yeah.

304

00:13:55,751 --> 00:13:58,671

And it doesn't it doesn't have to be

like a kind of big centerpiece.

305

00:13:58,671 --> 00:13:59,922

It doesn't have to be the kind of thing.

306

00:13:59,922 --> 00:14:03,259

And sometimes I think it's better,

actually, if, you know, Greek words

307

00:14:03,259 --> 00:14:07,763

and stuff don't actually form a big part

of of your you're kind of teaching.

308

00:14:08,055 --> 00:14:10,474

I get a little nervous,

and I hear people like the Greek and say,

309

00:14:10,474 --> 00:14:13,602

well, okay, maybe,

maybe if we back off a little bit.

310

00:14:13,602 --> 00:14:13,978

Yeah.

311

00:14:13,978 --> 00:14:16,647

It's like you get this sense

that there's this aurora or this.

312

00:14:16,647 --> 00:14:17,398

Ooh, there.

313

00:14:17,398 --> 00:14:20,401

You know, the Greek,

it says this, you know?

314

00:14:20,442 --> 00:14:21,819

Yeah.

315

00:14:21,819 --> 00:14:23,946

Yeah. I can imagine that might be

a little frustrating to you.

316

00:14:25,114 --> 00:14:26,782

Do you want to dive into that a bit more?

317

00:14:26,782 --> 00:14:27,575

Because I feel like that.

318

00:14:27,575 --> 00:14:30,452

That's one maybe we should,

you know, poke on that a bit.

319

00:14:30,452 --> 00:14:31,161

It is a little bit.

320

00:14:31,161 --> 00:14:31,537

Yeah.

321

00:14:31,537 --> 00:14:32,288

Yeah yeah I mean

322

00:14:32,288 --> 00:14:36,292

I think we were talking about this

just before, but I think sometimes,

323

00:14:36,375 --> 00:14:40,796

there's a little bit of a danger

for people who, you know, see that

324

00:14:40,796 --> 00:14:45,217

there's value in the original languages

and who have a sense rightly,

325

00:14:45,551 --> 00:14:48,762

that there's something to be gained

by going back to the original language.

326

00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:52,808

But sometimes there's, I think, a danger

of, of kind of trying to use it like a,

327

00:14:52,808 --> 00:14:54,226

like a magic wand, kind of,

328

00:14:54,226 --> 00:14:56,020

you know, so if you, you know,

you read the fairy tales

329

00:14:56,020 --> 00:14:57,980

and it's like, oh,

they're out in the middle of the desert,

330

00:14:57,980 --> 00:14:59,106

they've run out of food.

331

00:14:59,106 --> 00:15:02,151

But, you know, you just wave

your magic wand and all of a sudden, like,

332

00:15:02,151 --> 00:15:05,654

a whole banquet appears, you know,

it's like, oh, we got this amazing.

333

00:15:06,071 --> 00:15:09,909

And sometimes you get a little bit of that

sense with, with the biblical languages,

334

00:15:09,909 --> 00:15:13,787

where it's like when I read this in

English, you know, I have some questions.

335

00:15:13,787 --> 00:15:17,416

It doesn't all make sense for me, but

if only I could read it in Greek, then,

336

00:15:17,416 --> 00:15:21,045

like, all my questions would be answered

and all the problems would go away.

337

00:15:21,378 --> 00:15:27,009

And if you come to it that way,

then you're you're maybe less likely to

338

00:15:27,009 --> 00:15:30,095

to use the original languages

and to use the tools that you have

339

00:15:30,095 --> 00:15:31,597

in a responsible way.

340

00:15:31,597 --> 00:15:35,476

And then more likely to end up,

you know, kind of importing meanings

341

00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:36,435

that aren't there, or

342

00:15:36,435 --> 00:15:40,689

like trying to load up one Greek word

with like a whole bunch of meaning that

343

00:15:40,940 --> 00:15:43,943

that one word can't really carry,

if you know what I mean.

344

00:15:44,109 --> 00:15:47,237

So it's the kind of the kind of magic

wand approach to biblical languages

345

00:15:47,237 --> 00:15:50,407

that, you know, want to kind of,

maybe discourage or.

346

00:15:51,241 --> 00:15:53,535

What would you say

is, is a better approach

347

00:15:53,535 --> 00:15:55,871

then to, to the biblical languages?

348

00:15:55,871 --> 00:15:56,872

Because I feel

349

00:15:57,957 --> 00:15:58,415

that,

350

00:15:58,415 --> 00:16:01,627

yeah, I've definitely seen it

where, you know, someone has a sermon or.

351

00:16:01,627 --> 00:16:02,753

Yeah, exactly.

352

00:16:02,753 --> 00:16:05,047

And they say, oh, well,

the Greek word actually means this.

353

00:16:05,047 --> 00:16:07,758

And then you can extract

all these sermon points from it.

354

00:16:07,758 --> 00:16:11,261

It's like, well,

you know, that might be a bit much, right?

355

00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:13,222

But it's very easy to do.

356

00:16:13,222 --> 00:16:17,017

What would you say is a better mindset

to have as we approach the text

357

00:16:17,017 --> 00:16:17,893

in its original?

358

00:16:17,893 --> 00:16:18,852

Yeah. yeah.

359

00:16:18,852 --> 00:16:21,939

I mean, a lot of the time,

I think, I think looking for and expecting

360

00:16:21,939 --> 00:16:25,859

to find maybe different nuances

and kind of, small,

361

00:16:25,859 --> 00:16:29,989

I don't know, small things that,

maybe can't be captured in translation.

362

00:16:30,739 --> 00:16:32,574

And those kind of.

363

00:16:32,574 --> 00:16:35,411

Yeah, maybe it's not going to just

completely revolutionize

364

00:16:35,411 --> 00:16:36,662

your understanding of the passage,

365

00:16:36,662 --> 00:16:39,123

but it's kind of like shade

in some extra detail,

366

00:16:39,123 --> 00:16:42,501

or it's kind of like color how you see one

word, like in a slightly different way.

367

00:16:43,085 --> 00:16:46,714

And, you know, there are some words

and this is where, you know,

368

00:16:46,714 --> 00:16:48,924

you can't expect to find this

with every Greek word.

369

00:16:48,924 --> 00:16:54,555

But there are there are some words

where you know, the range of meaning

370

00:16:54,555 --> 00:16:59,018

that one Greek word has just doesn't line

up very well with any one English word.

371

00:16:59,476 --> 00:17:02,479

And so, you know, the translators,

they they've got to pick an English word

372

00:17:02,479 --> 00:17:04,773

because you can't put

in a whole dictionary entry. Right.

373

00:17:04,773 --> 00:17:06,025

So you pick one word.

374

00:17:06,025 --> 00:17:10,362

But, but sometimes, being able to look

that word up and kind of see the full

375

00:17:10,362 --> 00:17:14,575

range of meaning actually gives you

a better sense of, of what the, the verses

376

00:17:15,117 --> 00:17:16,076

is trying to communicate.

377

00:17:16,076 --> 00:17:17,119

That's not always the case.

378

00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:18,996

You know, sometimes like,

379

00:17:18,996 --> 00:17:21,749

you know, people will say like,

oh, like I'm reading this verse and like

380

00:17:21,749 --> 00:17:24,877

there's this word impossible, but like,

what is impossible really mean in Greek?

381

00:17:25,127 --> 00:17:26,003

It's like, well,

382

00:17:26,003 --> 00:17:28,297

you know, I hate to say it,

but it just means impossible, you know?

383

00:17:29,631 --> 00:17:30,924

But but there are those and

384

00:17:30,924 --> 00:17:32,634

maybe I'll give you kind of an example

on the other side.

385

00:17:32,634 --> 00:17:38,140

So, so in John one, maybe verse five,

John says that,

386

00:17:38,807 --> 00:17:42,269

the light shines in the darkness,

and the darkness has not.

387

00:17:42,561 --> 00:17:45,272

And I've, I forget now

what some of the English says.

388

00:17:45,272 --> 00:17:47,775

Yeah, we probably should figure out

what the English translation say.

389

00:17:47,775 --> 00:17:50,778

The light shines in the darkness,

and the darkness has not overcome it.

390

00:17:51,445 --> 00:17:52,029

That.

391

00:17:52,029 --> 00:17:53,155

Yeah that's ESV.

392

00:17:53,155 --> 00:17:54,782

Okay. Do you want to in different.

393

00:17:54,782 --> 00:17:55,532

Yeah.

394

00:17:55,532 --> 00:17:58,702

I don't know maybe

So this would be the King James for John.

395

00:17:59,286 --> 00:18:00,954

John, chapter one, verse five.

396

00:18:00,954 --> 00:18:04,541

And the light shines in the darkness,

and the darkness comprehended it not.

397

00:18:05,417 --> 00:18:05,667

yeah.

398

00:18:05,667 --> 00:18:08,629

So, so this word you know,

the range of meaning is kind of broad.

399

00:18:08,629 --> 00:18:13,467

And so it has often the idea

of like to seize or to like, attain.

400

00:18:13,967 --> 00:18:17,471

Sometimes it's to kind of, to grasp,

sometimes even like intellectually

401

00:18:17,471 --> 00:18:19,139

like to, to get it.

402

00:18:19,139 --> 00:18:21,975

And so sometimes

and I think this is especially a thing

403

00:18:21,975 --> 00:18:25,938

that the Gospel of John,

that John himself was kind of fond of,

404

00:18:26,271 --> 00:18:30,359

he maybe use a word that had a broad

range of meaning, kind of intentionally.

405

00:18:30,776 --> 00:18:33,320

And so you get different translations

for that word.

406

00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,949

Maybe it's the darkness

hasn't really fully understood the light,

407

00:18:37,282 --> 00:18:39,910

or maybe the darkness hasn't been able

to, like,

408

00:18:39,910 --> 00:18:42,830

kind of take

hold of the light in some way.

409

00:18:42,830 --> 00:18:45,707

And maybe, maybe then overcome is

is a good translation.

410

00:18:45,707 --> 00:18:48,710

The light shines in the darkness

and the darkness has never overcome it.

411

00:18:49,169 --> 00:18:52,589

So so there are some of those cases

where seeing seeing

412

00:18:52,589 --> 00:18:56,343

the range of meaning of the word

can can help Because it's not like

413

00:18:57,469 --> 00:18:59,304

you pull out your Greek New Testament.

414

00:18:59,304 --> 00:18:59,555

Okay.

415

00:18:59,555 --> 00:19:01,140

You find this Greek word

and then you open up

416

00:19:01,140 --> 00:19:04,768

your English dictionary and it's this word

and you know this equals this.

417

00:19:05,018 --> 00:19:07,312

That's not really how language works.

418

00:19:07,312 --> 00:19:09,857

And I think it's kind of easy to just

419

00:19:09,857 --> 00:19:11,525

I don't know, just kind of assume

that's the way it is.

420

00:19:11,525 --> 00:19:13,360

Right. And it's not really.

421

00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:16,405

So maybe a, a word to keep in

mind would be like nuance, perhaps

422

00:19:16,405 --> 00:19:17,364

nuances of meaning.

423

00:19:17,364 --> 00:19:18,198

Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

424

00:19:18,198 --> 00:19:20,784

That's good.

425

00:19:20,784 --> 00:19:22,411

Anything else you want to add on. On that.

426

00:19:22,411 --> 00:19:25,414

Like Why we should care

about biblical languages.

427

00:19:26,165 --> 00:19:26,456

Yeah.

428

00:19:26,456 --> 00:19:29,835

I mean, there's, you know, in addition

to seeing those maybe nuances

429

00:19:29,835 --> 00:19:32,796

of meaning and being able

to to get a better sense of where

430

00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:36,633

kind of one Greek word or phrase doesn't

neatly correspond to one English phrase.

431

00:19:37,009 --> 00:19:41,054

There's also some times where there's

a certain kind of theological debate,

432

00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:45,559

that will sometimes hinge on a particular

word or particular Greek wording.

433

00:19:46,435 --> 00:19:48,896

And that's the kind of thing

that probably not everyone

434

00:19:48,896 --> 00:19:51,899

is going to be like thinking about

or putting lots of effort into.

435

00:19:52,149 --> 00:19:56,695

But it's the kind of thing

where, it's useful for a church or,

436

00:19:56,737 --> 00:20:00,449

you know, a community

maybe to have some people who are familiar

437

00:20:00,449 --> 00:20:04,494

enough with the original languages to be

able to kind of get into that debate,

438

00:20:04,786 --> 00:20:05,787

if you will.

439

00:20:05,787 --> 00:20:08,790

So there's this there's this kind of big

scholarly debate about,

440

00:20:09,249 --> 00:20:12,377

faith in Christ

or the faithfulness of Christ.

441

00:20:12,461 --> 00:20:15,255

Galatians in Romans

is this Oh, interesting.

442

00:20:15,255 --> 00:20:15,589

Yeah.

443

00:20:15,589 --> 00:20:18,634

It's maybe, perhaps not so well-known

just among kind of,

444

00:20:19,384 --> 00:20:21,637

you know, you sort of average,

you know, everyday Christian.

445

00:20:22,638 --> 00:20:24,473

But there

are, there are some of those places

446

00:20:24,473 --> 00:20:27,476

maybe,

maybe another example would also be,

447

00:20:28,060 --> 00:20:30,395

you know, you,

you hear the kind of knock on your door

448

00:20:30,395 --> 00:20:32,606

and it's the, it's

the friendly Jehovah's Witnesses,

449

00:20:32,606 --> 00:20:35,400

and they'll, they'll,

they'll try to tell you, hey, you know, in

450

00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,988

John one where it says,

the word is with God and the word was God.

451

00:20:40,364 --> 00:20:42,199

Actually, that Greek word, God.

452

00:20:42,199 --> 00:20:44,534

It doesn't have the definite article

before it.

453

00:20:44,534 --> 00:20:45,994

And so it should be translated.

454

00:20:45,994 --> 00:20:48,622

The word was, a God, yes.

455

00:20:48,622 --> 00:20:51,541

You've maybe heard this. Yes.

Oh, I've totally heard this.

456

00:20:51,541 --> 00:20:54,002

Go ahead

and just just dive into that case.

457

00:20:54,002 --> 00:20:55,087

Let's use that as a case.

458

00:20:55,087 --> 00:20:56,296

So what's going on there?

459

00:20:56,296 --> 00:20:59,132

Like, do they have any grounds, like,

where does this come from?

460

00:20:59,132 --> 00:21:02,094

That they say that?

Yeah I mean the short answer is no,

461

00:21:04,054 --> 00:21:05,597

Well, there goes that.

462

00:21:05,597 --> 00:21:07,808

If you’re a Jehovah's Witness

and you're watching

463

00:21:07,808 --> 00:21:10,936

this, too bad

I guess, or like that's just yeah, yeah.

464

00:21:10,936 --> 00:21:14,022

If you're watching this I mean, sorry,

but, you know, this is, this is,

465

00:21:14,022 --> 00:21:17,025

I don't know, a chance to

to maybe rethink an important passage.

466

00:21:17,276 --> 00:21:19,569

So, so there's a bit of truth to it,

right?

467

00:21:19,569 --> 00:21:23,115

So, you know, the definite article

doesn't appear in that verse.

468

00:21:23,407 --> 00:21:24,908

So if it did, we would.

469

00:21:24,908 --> 00:21:26,618

Well, it would,

the sentence wouldn't really make sense,

470

00:21:26,618 --> 00:21:29,079

but you would translate

the word was the god or something.

471

00:21:29,079 --> 00:21:30,497

But that wouldn't make sense.

472

00:21:30,497 --> 00:21:33,917

But we have this kind of idea of like,

oh, definite,

473

00:21:34,209 --> 00:21:38,380

you know, and so if, if the word appears

then it’s definite and then indefinite.

474

00:21:38,380 --> 00:21:41,800

And so if the article doesn't appear then,

then we want to say it's indefinite.

475

00:21:42,217 --> 00:21:44,886

But that's,

it turns out a bit too simplistic.

476

00:21:44,886 --> 00:21:46,763

So somewhere in between definite

477

00:21:46,763 --> 00:21:49,766

and indefinite,

there's this idea of being qualitative,

478

00:21:49,891 --> 00:21:53,103

and so maybe, maybe a good example

comes from actually first John.

479

00:21:53,437 --> 00:21:56,315

So the same author, but where he says

480

00:21:56,315 --> 00:21:59,776

that, God is love, God is love.

481

00:22:00,193 --> 00:22:02,029

And so I don't know

how would we think about the word love?

482

00:22:02,029 --> 00:22:04,656

It's not definite.

It's not God is the love.

483

00:22:04,656 --> 00:22:05,949

It's also not indefinite.

484

00:22:05,949 --> 00:22:07,701

It's not God is a love.

485

00:22:07,701 --> 00:22:10,245

Like that doesn't really make any sense,

but it's qualitative.

486

00:22:10,245 --> 00:22:12,372

In other words, what is God like?

487

00:22:12,372 --> 00:22:14,708

What's the quality that that God has?

488

00:22:14,708 --> 00:22:16,877

And in this particular statement,

God is love.

489

00:22:16,877 --> 00:22:18,170

That's what God is like.

490

00:22:18,170 --> 00:22:20,630

And then the very same thing is

of course in John one.

491

00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:22,424

So the word was with God.

492

00:22:22,424 --> 00:22:25,177

And what was the word like?

The word was God.

493

00:22:25,177 --> 00:22:26,803

Yeah. So it's right.

494

00:22:26,803 --> 00:22:30,849

You can end up getting into a really kind

of theologically bad place if,

495

00:22:30,849 --> 00:22:33,852

you know, you try to jump in with like,

oh, it's got to be either

496

00:22:33,852 --> 00:22:36,396

definite or indefinite,

you don't have enough kind of,

497

00:22:36,396 --> 00:22:39,566

maybe background

on how those things work, maybe.

498

00:22:39,566 --> 00:22:42,569

Also the broader point is,

499

00:22:42,944 --> 00:22:46,031

not every not every Christian needs

to know the whole

500

00:22:46,031 --> 00:22:49,451

the full grammatical kind of argument

for what's going on in that verse.

501

00:22:49,743 --> 00:22:52,120

But it is useful

if there are a few people around,

502

00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:53,580

if there's someone in your church

503

00:22:53,580 --> 00:22:55,874

that you can go to and say, hey,

you know, the J.W.

504

00:22:55,874 --> 00:22:58,126

said this,

can you help me understand this?

505

00:22:58,126 --> 00:23:01,963

And that's the kind of situation where,

you know, having some sort of access

506

00:23:02,798 --> 00:23:05,801

to biblical language

resources can actually be really helpful.

507

00:23:06,218 --> 00:23:09,930

that's actually kind of a big deal

because, because I mean, without this

508

00:23:11,014 --> 00:23:13,016

seems like it'd be pretty easy

to manipulate

509

00:23:13,016 --> 00:23:16,103

the text and come up with some,

some kind of weird ideas.

510

00:23:16,144 --> 00:23:19,147

I mean, JWs is a good example.

511

00:23:19,231 --> 00:23:19,648

Where.

512

00:23:19,648 --> 00:23:22,484

Yeah, they have their own translation,

which I, which I have a, I have a copy of.

513

00:23:22,484 --> 00:23:23,777

It's kind of interesting

to leaf through, like.

514

00:23:23,777 --> 00:23:25,153

Wow. That's okay.

515

00:23:25,153 --> 00:23:27,614

That's a, you know, that's different,

you know. Yeah.

516

00:23:27,614 --> 00:23:31,576

And but it's kind of easy

to, to manipulate the text

517

00:23:31,576 --> 00:23:34,579

if you are trying

to pull a certain angle or something.

518

00:23:34,621 --> 00:23:36,373

So I, I really see what you're saying

there.

519

00:23:36,373 --> 00:23:39,126

If you have some people

that actually know a little bit about it,

520

00:23:39,126 --> 00:23:40,752

you can't get pulled off.

521

00:23:40,752 --> 00:23:42,671

Yeah. You know, with that. Yeah.

522

00:23:42,671 --> 00:23:46,591

That's interesting because it actually

and this is maybe Bunny Trail, but,

523

00:23:46,758 --> 00:23:50,679

there's a friend of mine

in an Anabaptist church,

524

00:23:50,679 --> 00:23:54,057

and they had someone who's come

and started joining their church,

525

00:23:54,474 --> 00:23:57,310

and, this person started teaching

some of this very stuff.

526

00:23:57,310 --> 00:24:00,814

Like what Jesus wasn't,

wasn't actually God because they had

527

00:24:01,398 --> 00:24:04,151

they I don't know where they got it,

but they found probably some resources

528

00:24:04,151 --> 00:24:05,110

on the internet or whatever.

529

00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:07,237

And it's like, oh, well,

you know, Jesus, what now?

530

00:24:07,237 --> 00:24:09,030

You know, maybe this Trinity thing

isn't really real.

531

00:24:09,030 --> 00:24:13,535

And like, as they started going down

that fast track of heresy very quickly,

532

00:24:13,535 --> 00:24:17,038

I started being pretty vocal about it,

you know, in a, in a church environment.

533

00:24:17,038 --> 00:24:21,877

And it's like suddenly you, you do kind of

want to have some knowledge of

534

00:24:22,085 --> 00:24:26,173

how to combat that, because it's not just,

a slight misinterpretation here.

535

00:24:26,173 --> 00:24:29,759

And now we're getting we're getting

outside of the orthodox, you know, belief,

536

00:24:29,968 --> 00:24:31,470

you know, outside of Orthodox

Christianity.

537

00:24:31,470 --> 00:24:34,473

So, with that being the case, right.

538

00:24:34,639 --> 00:24:37,851

Maybe, you know, I can imagine some people

listening to this saying, yeah, okay,

539

00:24:38,143 --> 00:24:40,604

I kind of like to look into

some biblical languages, you know,

540

00:24:40,604 --> 00:24:42,063

where can I learn and learn more?

541

00:24:42,063 --> 00:24:45,859

So, obviously

this is a massive field of study,

542

00:24:45,942 --> 00:24:48,904

but where is a place someone could start

if they're interested in this?

543

00:24:48,904 --> 00:24:50,071

yeah, yeah, that's a great question.

544

00:24:50,071 --> 00:24:52,699

Maybe I can kind of break it up into

into kind of two questions.

545

00:24:52,699 --> 00:24:56,870

So, if people want to learn like actually

546

00:24:56,870 --> 00:25:00,332

really, really learn Greek or Hebrew,

it's a worthwhile investment.

547

00:25:00,707 --> 00:25:02,250

And I can, I can maybe point

548

00:25:02,250 --> 00:25:05,253

you toward a kind of a couple of resources

to, to maybe get started.

549

00:25:05,295 --> 00:25:07,005

But it is it is a big investment.

550

00:25:07,005 --> 00:25:10,300

And, you know, sometimes

maybe some of the,

551

00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:13,803

the payoff, so to speak, it comes

it comes a bit later on.

552

00:25:14,054 --> 00:25:16,056

So you kind of

have to put in a bunch of grunt work,

553

00:25:16,056 --> 00:25:19,726

to kind of get like past that initial,

you know, hump, let's say,

554

00:25:20,101 --> 00:25:24,648

and then once you, once you like, have

have gotten to, maybe a further point,

555

00:25:24,856 --> 00:25:27,901

that's when you start being able

to kind of see those nuances and know

556

00:25:27,901 --> 00:25:30,946

how to like, use

what you've learned responsibly.

557

00:25:31,488 --> 00:25:33,114

So, so maybe I can kind of give you

558

00:25:33,114 --> 00:25:36,076

a couple of resources,

but maybe for most people,

559

00:25:36,117 --> 00:25:39,621

it's almost more helpful to think

kind of on the other side, I'll probably

560

00:25:39,621 --> 00:25:43,041

never, like, put in, you know, invest

all the time to, to get the whole way.

561

00:25:43,333 --> 00:25:46,086

But What are some resources

that can maybe,

562

00:25:46,086 --> 00:25:49,339

be helpful in using the biblical languages

responsibly?

563

00:25:49,422 --> 00:25:52,425

For, for someone

who's not going to kind of master them

564

00:25:52,968 --> 00:25:54,469

so there's a great resource out there.

565

00:25:54,469 --> 00:25:54,928

It's free.

566

00:25:54,928 --> 00:25:57,556

It's super easy to use

and it's called the Net Bible.

567

00:25:57,556 --> 00:26:01,059

So net it stands for New English

translation I believe.

568

00:26:01,518 --> 00:26:04,604

But what this translation is

kind of known for is their notes.

569

00:26:04,813 --> 00:26:06,648

So the net notes.

570

00:26:06,648 --> 00:26:09,234

So basically it's it's

an English Bible translation.

571

00:26:09,234 --> 00:26:12,320

It's, you know, it reads pretty similar

to maybe the NIV or the ESV.

572

00:26:12,612 --> 00:26:16,700

But there's a lot of places,

where when they came to that sort

573

00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:20,787

of difficult translation decision, like,

you know, how do we get this into English?

574

00:26:20,787 --> 00:26:23,707

We've got to either pick this word or

this word, and we can't capture all of it.

575

00:26:24,666 --> 00:26:27,002

They basically write a little footnote

explaining,

576

00:26:27,002 --> 00:26:30,797

sometimes that that kind of decision,

or other times

577

00:26:30,797 --> 00:26:33,383

if there's like a word

that maybe the meaning is disputed

578

00:26:33,383 --> 00:26:35,844

and they'll, they'll explain

in a note saying,

579

00:26:35,844 --> 00:26:38,847

some scholars think that this word means

this.

580

00:26:38,847 --> 00:26:41,766

Other scholars would take it