1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:10,380 On Bwb Extra this week is Robin Butler, head of Impact at Sturgeon Capital, who we get to know a little better, both personally and professionally. 2 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:17,940 Robin tells us about how he came to be working in emerging markets, the challenges he faces around bridging the gap. 3 00:00:18,005 --> 00:00:29,765 Between the perception and reality of countries that Sturgeon Capital are investing in, as well as hearing about his charity work with Horatio's Garden, who build bespoke gardens for spinal injury units. 4 00:00:30,005 --> 00:00:31,564 All of that plus more. 5 00:00:32,945 --> 00:00:35,795 This is where we wind the clock back a bit. 6 00:00:36,334 --> 00:00:36,455 Okay. 7 00:00:36,485 --> 00:00:39,004 Um, and sort of find out a bit more about you again. 8 00:00:39,065 --> 00:00:40,595 How did you end up doing what you're doing? 9 00:00:41,435 --> 00:00:44,285 More by luck than more by luck than judgment. 10 00:00:44,935 --> 00:00:57,435 So, As I said, always really interested in history when I was at school and, but history at school in the UK is mainly European, Anglo-Saxon, um, uh, maybe the US if you're lucky, a little bit of Europe if you're unfortunate. 11 00:00:57,495 --> 00:01:04,575 And, uh, they, um, I, I'd never really sort of studied any kinda Middle Eastern or, or, or Asian history. 12 00:01:04,815 --> 00:01:10,545 But then took a year out after, after school, before going to uni, which I'd got in to do straight history and lived in Jordan for three months. 13 00:01:10,545 --> 00:01:12,825 Learning, learning Arabic and loved it. 14 00:01:12,825 --> 00:01:16,115 How did you, I mean, Like, did that just fall into you? 15 00:01:16,145 --> 00:01:19,305 I mean, how did you That was through someone, uh, my dad knew from the Army. 16 00:01:19,310 --> 00:01:19,755 Okay, okay. 17 00:01:19,755 --> 00:01:24,555 Who, um, uh, is, is Jordanian and, and said like, does Rob come and come and stay? 18 00:01:24,645 --> 00:01:24,825 Yeah. 19 00:01:24,825 --> 00:01:32,055 Does he wanna come and sort of spend, spend three months here and we have a bit of a sort of, kind of job to keep him busy and he done a bit of Arabic and might be good for him. 20 00:01:32,145 --> 00:01:33,645 Like, yeah, that sounds, that sounds pretty cool. 21 00:01:34,045 --> 00:01:42,475 Um, so went there for three months, learn from Arabic, but also kind of got a, a taste for Middle Eastern history, culture, language, religion, and thought it was fascinating. 22 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:51,775 It just seems so much more interesting than European, hang on, religion, which Middle Eastern religion, Islam, I mean, is, uh, just something I'd never really, this is more than one Exactly. 23 00:01:51,895 --> 00:01:59,035 I, uh, I grew up in, um, Shire, so, uh, a long way away from, uh, the Middle East and, and really much, much variety. 24 00:01:59,305 --> 00:02:05,270 It's a wonderful place, but, uh, not exactly very, Cosmopolitan, but then so lived and then came back. 25 00:02:05,270 --> 00:02:09,020 And when I got to university, I was like, actually, maybe this straight history thing isn't so interesting. 26 00:02:09,289 --> 00:02:11,720 Added in me mid Eastern studies, added in Arabic. 27 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:12,950 Did that for three years. 28 00:02:12,950 --> 00:02:13,370 Loved it. 29 00:02:13,370 --> 00:02:14,630 Studied a lot of Iranian history. 30 00:02:14,635 --> 00:02:18,050 So I thought, well, I can wanna go and live in Iran, um, and learn some Farsi. 31 00:02:18,050 --> 00:02:21,440 And this was when the sanctions had been lifted before Trump was elected. 32 00:02:21,860 --> 00:02:27,800 So went to Iran for a year, learned Farsi Trump got elected that killed the, uh, kind of opportunities there. 33 00:02:28,190 --> 00:02:37,454 But after nearly a year, Was kind of looking for jobs and that's how I met the company that I work for now, because at the time we were investing in Iran, um, and that's what we were doing. 34 00:02:37,725 --> 00:02:43,005 It was a nice path that life took you, I mean, I, is it planned or do you have a long-term plan? 35 00:02:43,185 --> 00:02:46,545 I guess it's easy once you get to, to the point where I'm now and I can sort of say all. 36 00:02:47,405 --> 00:03:10,595 Lived and worked and studied in and, and whatever in, in, in emerging markets for the last 10 years, but there wasn't some kind of grand plan that by the time I got to where I am now, I could, I could say that it, I was kind of doing things that I enjoyed and that I was interested in, which I think at that kind of university stage and, and just after I was, I was fortunate enough, fortunate enough to have, to have the ability to do, I mean, it's lovely if you have a, a job. 37 00:03:11,295 --> 00:03:16,605 Yeah, interest you to that extent, and, and, and I'll get paid to travel to the parts of the world that I want to go to on holiday anyway. 38 00:03:16,605 --> 00:03:24,045 So I really, I really, I really can't often that is, has a huge part to play in 20 year old job decisions, isn't it? 39 00:03:24,105 --> 00:03:24,285 Yeah. 40 00:03:24,290 --> 00:03:30,075 This job involves also flying on around the place, you know, but the time he hit 40, that's like, oh, nightmare. 41 00:03:31,065 --> 00:03:32,985 What's the most misunderstood thing about what. 42 00:03:33,745 --> 00:03:46,255 I mean on the, on the one hand of maybe this more general thing we can come onto it is, is the, the countries that we invest in are incredibly misunderstood, which I think is primarily because they only really make it in the news in the UK when something bad happens. 43 00:03:46,285 --> 00:03:53,875 So Pakistan's in the news when there's floods or Bora for Kazakhstan or Bangladesh is sort of readymade garments and sort of fires in factories. 44 00:03:53,875 --> 00:03:58,255 But actually, if you look at Bangladesh, Since that there was a terrible fire around 10 years ago. 45 00:03:58,255 --> 00:04:02,635 Since then, they now have some of the leading safety in their, uh, garments, factories in the world. 46 00:04:02,635 --> 00:04:05,934 But that's not in the news cuz No, no one, no one cares about that. 47 00:04:06,054 --> 00:04:08,545 Well, to be fair to Bora, they initially tried to ban him. 48 00:04:08,545 --> 00:04:13,404 He then, and then all these tourists started turning up and then tourist industry went through a 700% explosion. 49 00:04:13,410 --> 00:04:20,454 But you're right, it's the mis mis, you know, the more we can get to know each other, the better and, you know, not lose identities along the way, I guess. 50 00:04:20,454 --> 00:04:20,515 Yeah. 51 00:04:20,544 --> 00:04:30,470 And it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's the lack of sort of, General, not, not, doesn't even need to be positive, but just sort of the, the, the realistic, uh, understanding of what day-to-day life is there. 52 00:04:30,470 --> 00:04:30,560 Yeah. 53 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:31,670 What day-to-day challenges are. 54 00:04:31,670 --> 00:04:41,765 I don't think if you said to any of us, describe what you know your life would be like if you lived in anywhere as Stan Kazakhstan and, you know, We'd have any clue at all. 55 00:04:41,795 --> 00:04:42,005 No. 56 00:04:42,005 --> 00:04:52,415 But if you, if you go there and you spend time with people and you realize that everyone's kind of, uh, ambitions and, and desires are pretty similar, that you want to have kids a, a family, uh, secure job. 57 00:04:52,535 --> 00:04:59,375 It is trying to get more people to, to meet with and engage with people from, from those kind of countries and, and that, that helps bridge that divide. 58 00:04:59,380 --> 00:05:03,125 And we do a lot of trying to take investors, uh, to these, to these c. 59 00:05:03,485 --> 00:05:09,845 Speaking about it on, on podcasts, writing articles about it because it helps to bridge that gap a little bit. 60 00:05:09,905 --> 00:05:18,815 Um, which is, which is one of, definitely one of the biggest challenges we face as a business is, is bridging that gap between people's perception and the reality. 61 00:05:18,935 --> 00:05:20,376 Do you take investors out there and. 62 00:05:20,580 --> 00:05:20,880 Stuff. 63 00:05:20,909 --> 00:05:21,510 Yeah, we do. 64 00:05:21,510 --> 00:05:25,140 We took, we had about 60 people in, in Oz, Stan in Wow. 65 00:05:25,145 --> 00:05:27,000 You manage to get that many people to come out. 66 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,789 So some, some of them were our, were the founders of our portfolio companies. 67 00:05:29,789 --> 00:05:29,880 Right. 68 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:30,990 Including from other countries. 69 00:05:30,990 --> 00:05:35,640 And then the others were, um, investors from, from Europe, us, uh, middle East. 70 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,830 So kind of from all over the place and saying, look, come there. 71 00:05:37,830 --> 00:05:46,110 And no matter how, how, how eloquently I talk about it or, or how persuasive I am, five minutes in US Pakistan is a hundred times better than me. 72 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,049 What's the biggest problem facing your. 73 00:05:50,219 --> 00:05:57,900 One of them is that, that that sort of gap between perception and reality of the countries that we're investing in and trying to bridge that, I think that's become more difficult recently. 74 00:05:58,229 --> 00:06:03,479 So the last couple of years, um, the sort of VC market was, was red hot? 75 00:06:03,479 --> 00:06:04,740 I mean we're all sort of yeah. 76 00:06:04,770 --> 00:06:10,200 Seeing, seeing from a public markets perspective, tech stocks doing phenomenally well and that was trickling down into, into private markets. 77 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,469 A lot of money flowing in a kind of, uh, lack of. 78 00:06:13,635 --> 00:06:21,765 Diligence and discipline from a lot of investors in terms of the companies they were investing in and the, the, the valuation they were investing at, and that, that trickled through into our markets. 79 00:06:22,094 --> 00:06:34,245 Unfortunately, there've been a few companies, which we always felt had kind of fundamental problems with their business models from, from day one in terms of their, their monetization models and their, and the unity economics. 80 00:06:34,545 --> 00:06:38,775 Uh, but they were able to raise money because it was hot globally, or they, they had a kind of charismatic founder. 81 00:06:39,330 --> 00:06:48,299 They now haven't worked out and it's created, it's sort of worsened that perception of, of, of these markets and that, so that's a challenge of saying, look, hang on the, the fundamentals haven't changed. 82 00:06:48,299 --> 00:06:52,140 You still have young populations, high smartphone, internet penetration. 83 00:06:52,349 --> 00:06:53,849 You have a lot of people coming online. 84 00:06:53,854 --> 00:06:56,609 They want, they want to move shift from offline to online. 85 00:06:56,609 --> 00:07:03,169 And that is a huge opportunity cuz even if these economies don't grow, they're multi-billion dollar tens or hundreds of billions of. 86 00:07:03,455 --> 00:07:05,705 Economies that are entirely offline. 87 00:07:06,034 --> 00:07:06,185 Yeah. 88 00:07:06,185 --> 00:07:10,474 If in online becomes 10% of that, that could be a 10 billion opportunity. 89 00:07:10,474 --> 00:07:13,175 And that's, that's what we're trying to, to try, trying to capture. 90 00:07:13,180 --> 00:07:16,625 That hasn't changed, but perceptions in some ways have, have worsened. 91 00:07:16,625 --> 00:07:18,515 And, uh, it, it is understandable. 92 00:07:18,515 --> 00:07:18,935 I mean, they. 93 00:07:19,010 --> 00:07:22,940 People were moving away from investing into the US because it was very expensive. 94 00:07:23,180 --> 00:07:27,230 Now it's become cheaper to invest in the US and valuations have come down so I can understand. 95 00:07:27,230 --> 00:07:29,690 It's like, well I was never really that keen on emerging markets. 96 00:07:29,695 --> 00:07:31,159 I was just doing it cuz it seemed cheap. 97 00:07:31,580 --> 00:07:31,820 Okay. 98 00:07:31,825 --> 00:07:33,680 That person's a kind of tourist investor. 99 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,140 Then come back, sorry. 100 00:07:36,170 --> 00:07:37,070 I like the description. 101 00:07:37,940 --> 00:07:48,130 If we could tell, we talked a bit about how investors approach you, but you know, some, some artists would be thinking, What, what's the best way I should approach you? 102 00:07:48,159 --> 00:07:54,760 Like, you know, and also what should they be sending you, like, um, you know, if, is it just to not waste your time? 103 00:07:54,790 --> 00:07:57,640 So this is sort of founders looking, looking to raise money. 104 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,670 I mean, it's, um, much the same as anything in life. 105 00:08:00,670 --> 00:08:10,090 The, the best way of getting in touch with someone is through some kind of warm connection because that warm introduction, and I literally had someone today message me, a friend in, um, Stan, who I know well. 106 00:08:10,090 --> 00:08:14,080 And I, I like and I respect, messaged me to say, oh, have you seen this business from Kazakh? 107 00:08:14,355 --> 00:08:20,745 I have actually seen it before, but because they just sort of reached out cold through LinkedIn and Allen wasn't really entirely sure what they were doing. 108 00:08:21,165 --> 00:08:23,745 They didn't really sort of look at it in too much depth. 109 00:08:23,775 --> 00:08:25,365 Um, it was also very early stage. 110 00:08:25,365 --> 00:08:29,445 Now they've done a bit more, but it's coming from someone that I know, I'm sort of inherently biased. 111 00:08:29,450 --> 00:08:34,034 This, this, listen to it, this filter system, and we have a filter system and we are not even really that aware of it. 112 00:08:34,034 --> 00:08:41,055 But, you know, whether London and Partners or us as a brand or the clients we have, it's a very specific filter system and the quality. 113 00:08:41,625 --> 00:08:43,215 Things it gives you is very good. 114 00:08:43,545 --> 00:08:46,485 You know, almost always they're good quality, but not touchy. 115 00:08:46,635 --> 00:08:58,579 No, you, you, you approach a cold message from somebody you've never heard of before in a very different way because you're immediately, Suspicious and immediately like, well, it's unsure. 116 00:08:58,579 --> 00:09:05,910 Well this, and the reason you're unsure is there's a volume issue, especially in a market that's huge like Bangladesh, is that I have it. 117 00:09:05,915 --> 00:09:12,620 So if you as simple as answer, if you advertise, advertise something, and then deal with the inquiries, the qualities. 118 00:09:13,380 --> 00:09:14,430 All over the shop. 119 00:09:14,700 --> 00:09:17,970 I mean, it's, it is, so much of it is a complete waste of time. 120 00:09:17,970 --> 00:09:20,730 Or they've misunderstood or they're just like, no way. 121 00:09:20,790 --> 00:09:23,370 They are be, you know, ever gonna be able to afford us. 122 00:09:23,375 --> 00:09:29,220 Or, and so you have this problem, you're suddenly having these meetings cuz there's no way of making those meetings any shorter than like 20. 123 00:09:29,225 --> 00:09:32,310 Even if you work it out in the first two minutes, you're stuck for 15. 124 00:09:32,340 --> 00:09:32,910 You know? 125 00:09:33,330 --> 00:09:43,840 And so that, and so filters in our lives are so important, you know, but the, the, the challenge then also, If, if you are purely kind of network driven, is the biases that, that then become embedded? 126 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:55,150 I mean, if you have a certain group of, of clients or a certain type of founder that you've invested in for the first 10 businesses you've invested in, and then you rely on those companies or those clients to bring the next 10 or 20, it's. 127 00:09:55,395 --> 00:10:06,465 It's likely that there'll be, whether it's from a similar sort of economic social background or a similar business models, and you may, I dunno, maybe in, in your case it's only fine, you have a real concentration risk in a particular industry. 128 00:10:06,465 --> 00:10:06,585 Mm-hmm. 129 00:10:06,825 --> 00:10:13,005 And if that industry goes downhill for whatever reason, you sudden, oh crap, half half of our clients are, are now, are now struggling. 130 00:10:13,065 --> 00:10:14,445 No, that happens to accountants. 131 00:10:14,445 --> 00:10:14,625 Yeah. 132 00:10:15,075 --> 00:10:16,095 Very kind of concentrated. 133 00:10:16,425 --> 00:10:17,975 But on the other hand, you obviously want to. 134 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:23,590 If you become known as being the best people for a certain industry, then that's not necessarily a bad thing. 135 00:10:23,590 --> 00:10:27,040 That means the the best companies come to you and you can build a significant business. 136 00:10:28,150 --> 00:10:30,010 What are you doing about climate change? 137 00:10:30,344 --> 00:10:39,405 Presumably traveling to all these places means that yeah, you know, planting some trees, motherfucker, there's, there's a bit of offsetting that, uh, needs to be and does, and does and, and does get done. 138 00:10:39,435 --> 00:10:45,615 I mean, the sort of businesses we're investing in are not really directly focused on climate change and, and addressing those solutions. 139 00:10:45,615 --> 00:10:49,814 Now, some of them may be businesses that operate in the logistics space, for example, and help. 140 00:10:49,830 --> 00:10:55,200 Companies optimize their, uh, trucking movements on a niche example of a company we're invested in. 141 00:10:55,590 --> 00:10:57,690 They're reducing the number of trucks that company has to send. 142 00:10:57,690 --> 00:11:02,070 So they are having, but it's, it's not the sort of first, but the first step is they get the economy. 143 00:11:02,260 --> 00:11:02,750 Yeah. 144 00:11:02,750 --> 00:11:05,850 I mean, for a certain, it's not the core focus of the business. 145 00:11:05,850 --> 00:11:07,560 It's, is one we're saying, actually, look, this is a good thing. 146 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:09,450 They're actually, we're doing on, we're doing on top. 147 00:11:09,470 --> 00:11:09,750 Yeah. 148 00:11:09,750 --> 00:11:10,390 But it's. 149 00:11:10,475 --> 00:11:16,505 The reason why we're doing it in the first place, the reason we're doing is to make it more efficient so these companies can actually operate better and, and, and, and help them grow. 150 00:11:16,775 --> 00:11:19,625 And actually, the way we're doing it is because it is more efficient. 151 00:11:19,625 --> 00:11:22,775 It is, it is producing fewer, few fewer emissions. 152 00:11:22,865 --> 00:11:23,135 Yeah. 153 00:11:23,135 --> 00:11:26,165 I suppose sometimes I could be argued that thinking about. 154 00:11:26,555 --> 00:11:28,775 Greenish issues is a luxury of the first world. 155 00:11:29,015 --> 00:11:29,435 It is. 156 00:11:29,435 --> 00:11:32,915 But then the, the ones who are most threatened by it are people in emerging markets. 157 00:11:32,975 --> 00:11:35,015 And, and they also pollute far less. 158 00:11:35,075 --> 00:11:38,575 I mean, but by and large, I mean, okay, China's now apart from China. 159 00:11:38,575 --> 00:11:40,085 Yes, China, China's now an outlier. 160 00:11:40,085 --> 00:11:51,095 But you look at the sort of African countries that are most affected by climate change, and they're also the ones that historically have omitted the least, um, and have the least capacity and capability to actually do anything about it. 161 00:11:51,155 --> 00:11:54,995 Um, so it's, yeah, it's a, a incredibly com complex. 162 00:11:56,370 --> 00:11:59,339 What are you most excited about for your business? 163 00:11:59,610 --> 00:12:07,199 So we're in, we're in the process of raising, raising a new fund at the moment, um, which should hopefully be closing in the next, in the next couple of months. 164 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:15,870 And I think what's exciting about that is sort of talking about that, that downturn that you've had in, in sort of global funding availability and it's, it's sorting the wheat from. 165 00:12:16,220 --> 00:12:20,390 Both in terms of people who wanna be investing in these markets, but also the founders that are building businesses. 166 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,990 But as I also said that, that the, the, the fundamentals haven't changed. 167 00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:29,720 The size of the problem hasn't changed, and the ability of technology to solve a lot of those problems has hasn't changed. 168 00:12:29,930 --> 00:12:31,760 So now's that kind of prime time. 169 00:12:31,950 --> 00:12:41,100 Where the companies that do have capital that can attract the best talent, can really build significant businesses, which will have a meaningful impact on people's lives and, and ultimately become big businesses. 170 00:12:41,100 --> 00:12:46,860 And, and the the intention is that, uh, we make money for ourselves and for, for, for, for our investors from that. 171 00:12:46,860 --> 00:12:53,010 So while it's, while it's a difficult time, I think it's also a, a, a good time to be, to be investing in, in companies. 172 00:12:53,010 --> 00:12:54,300 I think that's true anywhere in the world. 173 00:12:54,690 --> 00:12:58,470 People say it was, oh, it was a great time to, to raise money and invest money the last couple of years. 174 00:12:58,740 --> 00:13:01,320 I don't, I don't think it was, and this is, I'm, I'm sort of parroting so. 175 00:13:01,864 --> 00:13:12,155 Uh, red on red on LinkedIn, but with such readily available capital, so many businesses were being founded and flooded with so much money that they weren't really building long-term sustainable, high quality businesses. 176 00:13:12,275 --> 00:13:16,564 There was a lot of bullshit about, yeah, there was a lot of bullshit about it, and we, we all knew it. 177 00:13:16,714 --> 00:13:21,694 Uh, or we still know it, you know, but, but the thing is, you always peddling hot air as a startup. 178 00:13:21,755 --> 00:13:28,864 I mean, I've seen, I think we've all seen people manage to raise money and get there when it was just them. 179 00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:30,480 You know, they've lost everything. 180 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,200 That business partner left and the bank, you know, and they've managed to persuade someone. 181 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:35,220 It was all dicky boo. 182 00:13:35,220 --> 00:13:45,780 You know what, what you're, I guess what we're looking for as an investor is, is how are they thinking about the problem they're they're facing because, oh, you say, I was like, the minute they may have nothing and in six months the problem's. 183 00:13:45,835 --> 00:13:47,875 Problem set will almost be entirely different. 184 00:13:47,875 --> 00:13:53,215 Whether it's because of their business, they're evolving, or the economy and the, the, the environment they're operating in changing. 185 00:13:53,455 --> 00:14:01,525 But it's that ability to adjust to those changing of problems, to to, to build the business or think about building the business in the, in the right way. 186 00:14:01,525 --> 00:14:05,095 That's, that's what's going to make them successful in the long term. 187 00:14:05,095 --> 00:14:06,475 And, and you can tell. 188 00:14:07,135 --> 00:14:20,665 When you're speaking to a founder, if they have that kind of mentality, if they have that sort of attitude, or if they're really just sort of focused on the kind of here and now, and they're quite sort of narrow minded about things and they're dismissive of, say, competition or things that you bring up, and it's like, no, no, that, that's not important. 189 00:14:20,665 --> 00:14:25,915 It's like, well, okay, I am pretty sure that it is gonna be important, but you shouldn't just be kind of dismissing things. 190 00:14:26,420 --> 00:14:29,330 Offhand because you think you'll, it's your way or the highway. 191 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:37,100 Business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ari Clark, straight Talking financial and legal advice since 1935. 192 00:14:37,370 --> 00:14:39,830 You can find us@ariclark.com. 193 00:14:41,085 --> 00:14:41,235 Yeah. 194 00:14:41,235 --> 00:14:43,125 Have you mucked anything out big as fuck up? 195 00:14:43,605 --> 00:14:49,035 Uh, a few years ago as, as, as a company, we, we tried to launch a fund, which, uh, didn't, didn't work out. 196 00:14:49,035 --> 00:14:56,835 And it, it really didn't work out because we, we thought we had a very good idea, but we hadn't really sort of spoken to the investors, uh, about it. 197 00:14:56,835 --> 00:14:59,895 And they were like, no, it's about it. 198 00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:00,065 This is about it. 199 00:15:00,065 --> 00:15:00,825 This is a bad idea. 200 00:15:01,245 --> 00:15:04,410 And that was, It was pretty tough at the time. 201 00:15:04,410 --> 00:15:07,050 We put like nearly year's worth of worth of work into it. 202 00:15:07,050 --> 00:15:07,470 It didn't work out. 203 00:15:07,470 --> 00:15:07,620 Soda. 204 00:15:08,010 --> 00:15:11,820 Wait, when you delivered this, did you just deliver it all at once to all of them? 205 00:15:11,850 --> 00:15:20,100 No, we'd, we'd been sort of trying, but we hadn't really, we hadn't listened just to pick 'em off one by one, you know, make them all think that no one else knows and then deliver it to all of them. 206 00:15:20,130 --> 00:15:21,540 It's like, that's Machiavelli. 207 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,700 But yeah, it just, and it just didn't, it didn't work out. 208 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:36,050 I mean, the lesson was, And it's, it's true for, for any business if you try and your ideas may seem brilliant to you, but they need to be shapes and, and evolved in contact with the people who actually want to use them. 209 00:15:36,050 --> 00:15:42,680 Whether that's investors for us or founders or clients or uh, potential buyers, whether there's are consumers or businesses. 210 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,920 Building something in isolation will almost certainly never work out. 211 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:52,490 I also think that's a really good argument for having co-founders in a business rather than just one founder. 212 00:15:52,495 --> 00:15:53,960 Yeah, because you just get. 213 00:15:54,990 --> 00:15:59,790 Tunnel vision and you can end up going down a random rabbit hole that's completely wrong. 214 00:15:59,850 --> 00:16:00,210 Yeah. 215 00:16:00,210 --> 00:16:02,670 But nobody's there to say What the actual fuck. 216 00:16:02,670 --> 00:16:03,570 This is stupid. 217 00:16:03,630 --> 00:16:13,860 But there's on this weird thing on the flip side, where actually sometimes that ability to ignore the sort of consensus view is what's actually required to build something that really changes how things, how things work. 218 00:16:13,860 --> 00:16:23,730 So it's how do you balance the need to take on board feedback and, and adapt what you're doing and the inspiration versus actually just staying true to what you think is, is, is the right way of doing things. 219 00:16:24,135 --> 00:16:38,805 It may not turn out to be that way, but a lot of the kind of bigger, bigger businesses that, that have been successful have taken an approach, which I mean, the sort of Teslas of this world, the idea of building a sort of significant new car company was, was crazy. 220 00:16:38,805 --> 00:16:45,915 I mean, no one's done it for, for, for decades, but there, there was that kind of single-minded determination and, and that ultimately has led to it to a very large. 221 00:16:47,595 --> 00:16:49,575 What's your passion outside of business? 222 00:16:49,695 --> 00:16:52,185 Passion outside of business, I play a lot of sport. 223 00:16:52,245 --> 00:16:56,835 Um, and then kind of link to that, do a fair amount with, uh, a couple of charities. 224 00:16:56,865 --> 00:17:01,395 Uh, there's one that's sort very close to my heart, which is called, um, Horatio's Garden. 225 00:17:01,395 --> 00:17:03,855 They, they build gardens in spinal injuries units. 226 00:17:03,860 --> 00:17:07,575 It was set up in a, set up a memory of a friend of mine, so pretty involved with that. 227 00:17:07,575 --> 00:17:10,575 And, uh, it's an amazing charity, like the impact they have on people's lives. 228 00:17:10,575 --> 00:17:14,805 You spend, you spend a minimum six months in hospital, uh, with a spinal. 229 00:17:15,315 --> 00:17:18,225 So these spinal injury units is where you are recovering from. 230 00:17:18,225 --> 00:17:19,185 This is where you're recovering. 231 00:17:19,185 --> 00:17:20,565 So you, you tend to have your injury. 232 00:17:20,565 --> 00:17:23,025 You are the treated in a, in a, in a, in a hospital. 233 00:17:23,025 --> 00:17:28,335 And then you go to spend six, 12, potentially 18, 24 months in one of these spinal injuries units. 234 00:17:28,335 --> 00:17:34,215 There are 11 in the uk, um, spread out over the uk and that's where you go to spend 6, 12, 18 months. 235 00:17:34,215 --> 00:17:37,125 And to begin with, you're almost certainly stuck in a bed. 236 00:17:37,215 --> 00:17:39,255 Um, unable to get up to get around. 237 00:17:39,285 --> 00:17:42,015 Potentially you're stuck in that bed forever or in a wheelchair forever. 238 00:17:42,375 --> 00:17:43,305 And historically, these. 239 00:17:43,625 --> 00:17:49,115 Didn't have any outside space, um, because you need to be on a perfectly flat floor and so you can't have cobbles or whatever. 240 00:17:49,115 --> 00:17:58,205 And the, a friend of mine who was, he was killed when he was, uh, 17, his father was a spinal spinal surgeon in Salisbury at one of the units. 241 00:17:58,235 --> 00:18:09,305 And he went and did a bit of work experience, uh, while he was, uh, because he, because he wanted to become a doctor himself and did a survey of the patients to see what, what it was that they, they most wanted and almost the universal responses. 242 00:18:09,310 --> 00:18:10,145 We'd love to have somewhere we can. 243 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,480 Side because we're stuck in this ward with the beeping machines and the crying patients. 244 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:21,510 And our friends don't want to come and see us, and our family are upset every time they come in and it smells and all this sort of stuff. 245 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:26,161 And he did that survey and then he was killed, uh uh, about a month later, tragically and, and. 246 00:18:26,780 --> 00:18:27,890 Not long after that. 247 00:18:27,890 --> 00:18:36,320 I think it was his mom remembered this survey and him talking about it and thought, well, look, this, this is what we, this is how we'll, uh, remember him set up, uh, Horatio's Garden. 248 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,760 They built the first one in Salisbury, I think it was 11 10, 10 or 11 years ago now. 249 00:18:41,030 --> 00:18:45,410 There are now six built, they, they're building the next one in, in Belfast at the moment. 250 00:18:45,410 --> 00:18:46,820 So that's, we've got a few more to. 251 00:18:47,470 --> 00:18:48,430 A few more to go. 252 00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:54,010 I, I did a bike ride last summer between all 11 of them in 11 days, which was, uh, it was pretty cool. 253 00:18:54,010 --> 00:18:56,020 Saw some bits of the UK that I'd never seen before. 254 00:18:56,025 --> 00:19:00,010 It was, uh, but that's, that's something that, uh, outside of work that I really care about. 255 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:02,740 What's the worst piece of advice you've ever been given? 256 00:19:03,284 --> 00:19:12,555 I think any and anyone or the sort of advice that, that some people would give at, at university, I dunno why this sort of come, comes to mind, that you used to do, you had to go and do one of those kind of grad schemes. 257 00:19:12,555 --> 00:19:17,264 So you had to go and get, get on, get on the ladder, get on the ladder and, and sort of whatever. 258 00:19:17,264 --> 00:19:18,135 And it's, I don't know. 259 00:19:18,135 --> 00:19:31,425 Now, now when I look at sort of hiring people, if, if someone's been off living in a, living in a different country or, or doing something a bit different, I'm way more interested in meeting them and interviewing them than that person who's sort of gone and ticked the boxes and done whatever because it's like, okay. 260 00:19:31,835 --> 00:19:42,845 And I know they're gonna be able to do the job, but I don't think they're gonna come up with anything new or innovative or be willing to, to fly overnight to another country and go straight into a meeting because they're kind of comfortable. 261 00:19:42,845 --> 00:19:43,895 And I totally understand. 262 00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:47,135 Like, I don't think it's sums up to getting hammered in Thailand that was, 263 00:19:50,765 --> 00:19:51,965 but it's, it's, it's like a. 264 00:19:52,280 --> 00:20:02,030 Maybe it's the rational thing to do is to find that sort of stable job nine, nine to five kind of thing, which, which I wouldn't, would never sort of say that that's a bad thing to do or it makes more sense. 265 00:20:02,030 --> 00:20:06,440 But, um, I, I think to think that that's what everyone should go and do is, is incorrect. 266 00:20:06,445 --> 00:20:09,770 I think if you have an interest in, in, in doing something a bit different. 267 00:20:10,425 --> 00:20:13,965 Go and see some, some other part of the world or maybe just even a different part of the uk. 268 00:20:13,965 --> 00:20:15,105 You've grown up in London the whole time. 269 00:20:15,105 --> 00:20:15,885 Go and live in Bristol. 270 00:20:15,885 --> 00:20:16,605 Go and live in Edinburgh. 271 00:20:16,605 --> 00:20:22,485 Go and go and live somewhere else and, and put yourself out of your comfort zone and you're usually find you can do a lot more than you thought you could. 272 00:20:23,805 --> 00:20:25,845 And what's the best piece of advice you're given? 273 00:20:26,025 --> 00:20:29,625 Uh, come to people with solutions, not problems. 274 00:20:29,830 --> 00:20:30,940 Oh yeah, please. 275 00:20:31,390 --> 00:20:32,230 No, please. 276 00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:32,620 Yeah. 277 00:20:32,620 --> 00:20:35,770 But sometimes you only need to speak to people cuz you've got a problem. 278 00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:36,190 Yeah. 279 00:20:36,430 --> 00:20:39,280 And this is my wife, which I guess in the evening it is. 280 00:20:39,340 --> 00:20:40,840 Um, don't tell. 281 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:43,450 Yeah, just don't answer me while I give you my problems. 282 00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:44,860 Oh my God. 283 00:20:44,890 --> 00:20:46,510 What is it with men in there then? 284 00:20:47,179 --> 00:20:53,870 You know, men have this real thing that they have to solve it for you though, like late, you just want to have a bitch about something. 285 00:20:53,870 --> 00:20:54,080 Yeah. 286 00:20:54,085 --> 00:20:54,179 Yeah. 287 00:20:54,185 --> 00:20:54,649 That's not like that. 288 00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:57,700 Maybe you didn't understand that person properly. 289 00:20:57,705 --> 00:20:59,570 Maybe they were just trying to be helpful. 290 00:20:59,570 --> 00:21:00,679 Just let 'em get it off there. 291 00:21:00,679 --> 00:21:02,270 It's taken me years to learn this and it's. 292 00:21:02,415 --> 00:21:03,405 Starts in the evening. 293 00:21:03,405 --> 00:21:04,395 It doesn't happen in the morning. 294 00:21:04,395 --> 00:21:05,655 This starts in the evening. 295 00:21:06,020 --> 00:21:09,105 Just as I'm gonna bed, this thing starts, you know? 296 00:21:09,705 --> 00:21:17,115 And if you interrupt it or go, cause you like, oh, this will knock it on the, he, you know, you don't need to worry about that darling, cuz I've done X. 297 00:21:17,115 --> 00:21:19,665 It's like, stop interrupting me. 298 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,960 What advice would you give your younger self? 299 00:21:24,410 --> 00:21:29,930 I guess it's sort of linked to that thing of what, what was the bad advice, but like, just, just make sure you're enjoying what you're doing. 300 00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:30,890 Like I, I dunno. 301 00:21:30,895 --> 00:21:38,660 I think I've been pretty lucky that I have over the years where it's been sort of studying or working or traveling, been able to do things that, that I really enjoy. 302 00:21:38,660 --> 00:21:44,750 But I guess it's maybe not just for younger self, but generally for people is make sure you're doing something that you're enjoying and that's challenging you. 303 00:21:44,755 --> 00:21:49,960 Cause I think if you stop being challenged, then that's when you kind of go into this sort of, Well, I was about to say that. 304 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,100 Define enjoyment. 305 00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:51,730 Enjoyment. 306 00:21:51,730 --> 00:21:54,220 Like it's, that's quite a hard one to pin down. 307 00:21:54,490 --> 00:22:00,100 I mean, you, you then said challenge, so challenge is more like, which except for me is, is, is, is what I enjoy for, for, for, for, for other people. 308 00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:00,730 They don't want that. 309 00:22:00,735 --> 00:22:09,010 And, but I think it's, it's trying to make, make sure you understand when you are younger, people are always fucking saying to you, you know, you don't regret the things you. 310 00:22:09,315 --> 00:22:12,375 You did, you, you know, you regret the things you've never done. 311 00:22:12,375 --> 00:22:15,765 And when you are like 25, you think, what the absolute fuck? 312 00:22:15,765 --> 00:22:16,665 That's stupid. 313 00:22:17,085 --> 00:22:19,965 But frankly, when you're 50, you think about it a lot more. 314 00:22:21,075 --> 00:22:23,685 Anything we need to read, watch, listen. 315 00:22:24,045 --> 00:22:28,785 Actually listening to a really good, uh, a really good podcast at the moment called Acquired. 316 00:22:28,995 --> 00:22:36,435 And they, the latest one they've done is about L V M H and the building of it and, um, uh, Arno and how. 317 00:22:37,155 --> 00:22:42,195 15 million, uh, initially, and that's now worth over 200 billion of his own money. 318 00:22:42,254 --> 00:22:45,375 Um, that's his own kind of personal wealth, but fascinating how, who did that? 319 00:22:45,585 --> 00:22:46,425 Bernardo? 320 00:22:46,425 --> 00:22:50,325 The, the government, uh, the guy who bought, bought behind lvmh. 321 00:22:50,355 --> 00:22:54,800 So it all stems from kind of France in the sort of, He, he was originally an engineer. 322 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,330 The family money was in engineering. 323 00:22:56,330 --> 00:23:03,170 He then spent time in America and, and then sort of started putting together this conglomerate of luxury brands. 324 00:23:03,410 --> 00:23:04,070 It's fascinating. 325 00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:05,600 It's sort of three and a half hour podcast. 326 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,230 They really go into depth about each character and aspect of the story. 327 00:23:09,230 --> 00:23:10,100 It's fascinating. 328 00:23:10,105 --> 00:23:10,910 Really, really good. 329 00:23:10,915 --> 00:23:11,040 Okay. 330 00:23:11,045 --> 00:23:11,750 On the list now. 331 00:23:12,180 --> 00:23:14,280 You always just wonder if they're all bastards, really. 332 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:15,210 You know what I mean? 333 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:26,700 No, but like, is it, is it, part of it is like, you know, do you, it's almost that you could do a test for how successful you're gonna be by working out how much psychopath you are because it's, there's a ruthlessness you often require, or. 334 00:23:27,390 --> 00:23:37,170 Uh, a developed or ability to turn your emotions off because you're gonna, you, if you, if your emotions are switched on, you'll get stuck in your own jelly trying to make bold decisions. 335 00:23:37,170 --> 00:23:37,800 Do you know what I mean? 336 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,230 Like what I may have upset Tim, with that last sentence. 337 00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:41,790 I better back down a bit on that one. 338 00:23:41,790 --> 00:23:44,670 That's, that's not gonna fucking serve you well if you wanna take over the world. 339 00:23:46,185 --> 00:23:49,824 So that brings us to the favorite part of the show, the business versus bullshit. 340 00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:50,594 Quick, far, round. 341 00:23:52,064 --> 00:23:53,054 Deq, the music. 342 00:23:55,094 --> 00:23:56,054 Robin, are you ready? 343 00:23:56,385 --> 00:23:56,655 Ready. 344 00:23:57,405 --> 00:24:04,784 Uh, this is where we're gonna reel off some key terms, and all you have to do is tell us whether you think of it's business or bullshit and you get one Bishop if you really must. 345 00:24:05,540 --> 00:24:06,530 Uh, hot Desk King. 346 00:24:07,879 --> 00:24:08,510 Sorry, baby. 347 00:24:08,929 --> 00:24:09,090 Bullshit. 348 00:24:09,399 --> 00:24:12,350 I hate, I think it's, I think, I think you Hot desk. 349 00:24:12,350 --> 00:24:13,490 No, no. 350 00:24:13,879 --> 00:24:15,010 And why is it bullshit? 351 00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:19,219 Um, it, it's just like having, having your own space hang. 352 00:24:19,219 --> 00:24:20,240 Just so much nicer. 353 00:24:20,750 --> 00:24:22,010 My dog is just being hit. 354 00:24:22,070 --> 00:24:23,240 Like, I'm so sorry. 355 00:24:23,245 --> 00:24:23,810 Rome me over. 356 00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:26,969 I still socialist and Oh, I know. 357 00:24:26,969 --> 00:24:29,419 I think dogs are bullshit, but I'm so sorry. 358 00:24:29,870 --> 00:24:31,530 What were you just not thinking? 359 00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:32,610 You weren't thinking? 360 00:24:33,139 --> 00:24:36,970 Uh, Bitcoin bullshit. 361 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:38,710 No, Bitcoin. 362 00:24:38,710 --> 00:24:39,820 You don't own any Bitcoins? 363 00:24:39,820 --> 00:24:40,260 I don't own Bitcoin. 364 00:24:40,260 --> 00:24:40,659 It's Bitcoin. 365 00:24:40,659 --> 00:24:42,740 It's the same question with each, do you own Bitcoin? 366 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:49,360 The underlying technology is fascinating and has a lot of uses, use cases, I think as a sort of store of value or whatever. 367 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:54,040 People, even in emerging markets, Bitcoin, where, you know, the local currencies could be, uh, unstable. 368 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,240 They just all use the dollar. 369 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:56,180 You don't, you know, yeah. 370 00:24:56,180 --> 00:24:58,300 The moments sort of stick to dollar or stable coins. 371 00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:01,420 I, I just think Bitcoin has a particular sort of hype, hype, hype. 372 00:25:02,054 --> 00:25:02,865 Working hours. 373 00:25:03,824 --> 00:25:11,084 Business MBAs learn, uh, business if you wanna build connections. 374 00:25:11,084 --> 00:25:11,445 Bullshit. 375 00:25:11,449 --> 00:25:12,824 If you actually want to learn anything useful. 376 00:25:13,594 --> 00:25:14,084 Yeah. 377 00:25:14,084 --> 00:25:14,564 Okay. 378 00:25:14,685 --> 00:25:15,074 Yeah. 379 00:25:15,375 --> 00:25:17,834 Well, there's more fun ways to build connections. 380 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,715 I would vote than doing a load of really annoying American exams. 381 00:25:20,774 --> 00:25:21,794 Yes, yes, there is. 382 00:25:22,814 --> 00:25:25,905 Start with Tai Chi at your local, uh, think tank. 383 00:25:26,750 --> 00:25:27,380 You were in one. 384 00:25:27,380 --> 00:25:28,730 Well, you mentioned think tanks. 385 00:25:28,850 --> 00:25:29,240 I did. 386 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,390 I did at one point, but they kind of flirt between the two. 387 00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:43,820 There are some, there are some business ones, but there's also a lot of bullshit ones that, uh, are not really doing much thinking, asking favors, uh, business, uh, breakfast meetings. 388 00:25:44,190 --> 00:25:44,860 Oh dear. 389 00:25:44,910 --> 00:25:45,990 More breakfast meetings. 390 00:25:46,130 --> 00:25:49,920 I, I really like breakfast, so if someone's gonna piss, someone's gonna take it off for breakfast. 391 00:25:50,270 --> 00:25:53,100 Do you know us think he's gonna be a breakfast eater. 392 00:25:53,460 --> 00:25:56,700 These breakfast eating motherfuckers, were never having breakfast. 393 00:25:56,910 --> 00:25:58,080 Uh, microdosing. 394 00:25:59,430 --> 00:26:02,540 Um, I guess, uh, bullshit. 395 00:26:02,770 --> 00:26:03,260 Yeah. 396 00:26:03,260 --> 00:26:04,500 Do, do, do something properly. 397 00:26:04,770 --> 00:26:08,159 Uh, good answer. 398 00:26:08,250 --> 00:26:09,960 Although moderation is meant to be good for you. 399 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,419 But, um, I think we've already established that that's not, yeah, that's not your No. 400 00:26:14,419 --> 00:26:16,560 Uh, everything in moderation, including moderation. 401 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,090 Everyone forgets the last two words. 402 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:19,360 Flexible working. 403 00:26:19,930 --> 00:26:20,590 Oh, business. 404 00:26:20,590 --> 00:26:21,790 I, I'm a big fan of that now. 405 00:26:22,210 --> 00:26:25,390 But you, like he's still getting your work done, but, um, just, yeah. 406 00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:27,820 Uh, being able to have a bit more flexible about flexibility. 407 00:26:27,820 --> 00:26:28,090 Hang on. 408 00:26:28,095 --> 00:26:33,040 Your job involved flying around the world like James Bond on various time zones. 409 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,890 I mean, he's telling you what time to work, you know. 410 00:26:35,895 --> 00:26:37,720 Is, is anything changed in your life? 411 00:26:38,140 --> 00:26:38,410 No. 412 00:26:38,410 --> 00:26:40,990 I mean, it's still, it's always been a case of just getting things done. 413 00:26:41,290 --> 00:26:41,500 Yeah. 414 00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:41,740 Yeah. 415 00:26:41,780 --> 00:26:43,600 But that's, they notice if you didn't do it. 416 00:26:43,660 --> 00:26:44,020 Yeah. 417 00:26:44,025 --> 00:26:49,540 That's eventually, that's kinda the fortunate thing the company have, which I think is the right place where it's like, it's not like you have to be in the office for a certain amount of hours. 418 00:26:49,540 --> 00:26:50,470 You have to get the work done. 419 00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:55,030 Now, if you get that work done in six hours and versus eight hours versus. 420 00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:58,020 At home on a Friday versus in the office the rest of the week. 421 00:26:58,409 --> 00:26:59,520 It doesn't matter. 422 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,760 As in the end, if we're getting what needs to be done, done, that's what matters. 423 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:03,450 Okay. 424 00:27:03,450 --> 00:27:04,080 Team outings. 425 00:27:04,210 --> 00:27:04,649 One more. 426 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:05,889 It's kind of bullshit. 427 00:27:05,895 --> 00:27:06,300 Most of the time. 428 00:27:07,260 --> 00:27:08,370 Usually not well organized. 429 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:10,889 Haven't been on one of ours. 430 00:27:11,070 --> 00:27:12,060 Uh, going viral. 431 00:27:12,540 --> 00:27:15,290 Uh, bullshit NFTs. 432 00:27:15,895 --> 00:27:16,595 It's bullshit. 433 00:27:17,705 --> 00:27:17,855 Oh, really? 434 00:27:17,855 --> 00:27:18,665 Yeah. 435 00:27:18,670 --> 00:27:20,135 And and they're, they're a nice kind of thing. 436 00:27:20,135 --> 00:27:25,025 You get some cool ones, but they're the ones which are purely sort of digital things. 437 00:27:25,055 --> 00:27:26,405 I, I, I think are, are are cool. 438 00:27:26,405 --> 00:27:29,825 Whereas when it's sort of something that still exists physically, that's, that's bullshit. 439 00:27:30,005 --> 00:27:35,735 Universal income, uh, was the other one you didn't wanna do first? 440 00:27:36,155 --> 00:27:37,655 No, I was the microdosing. 441 00:27:37,905 --> 00:27:43,085 I, uh, it's quite outrageous that one, I think the principle. 442 00:27:43,980 --> 00:27:47,500 Business, the practical application of it's so difficult. 443 00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:52,540 Is it half the beauty that we get away with all these complicated systems and just give everyone some money? 444 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,800 That that not the actual practical application, you mean the practical impact maybe? 445 00:27:56,919 --> 00:27:57,070 Or, yeah. 446 00:27:57,070 --> 00:28:00,129 And then, and the sort of nuance and, and how it would actually play out. 447 00:28:00,129 --> 00:28:03,580 That's, uh, maybe it's a sort of aversion rather than bullshit. 448 00:28:03,585 --> 00:28:08,020 Sort of, it's kind of the question in some ways is a fundamental thing of how, uh, much you. 449 00:28:08,825 --> 00:28:14,915 Yourself or how much you trust humans to be like, okay, they've got this money now they're gonna be more productive. 450 00:28:14,915 --> 00:28:17,945 And it's like, we probably trust everyone in this room to do that. 451 00:28:17,945 --> 00:28:19,205 But, you know, it's hard. 452 00:28:19,235 --> 00:28:21,335 It's it, it's hard to extrapolate it when. 453 00:28:22,485 --> 00:28:25,875 You don't need many people to take the piss for the whole thing to fall apart. 454 00:28:26,205 --> 00:28:27,975 Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. 455 00:28:27,975 --> 00:28:28,844 No, that's very true. 456 00:28:28,844 --> 00:28:48,334 But, but I think it's what, how, how, how could that money be used elsewhere as like if you invested that money in education and increasing sort of access to opportunities and infrastructure such that actually you didn't need to provide so much support because people had the kind of skills and ability that, for me, is a long term more sustainable solution. 457 00:28:48,340 --> 00:28:49,334 Whereas you shift to kind of. 458 00:28:49,830 --> 00:28:55,500 Uh, that sort of universal income, well, I think in the short term can create some very positive impact. 459 00:28:55,860 --> 00:28:58,140 What, what, what happens in sort of 20 years time? 460 00:28:58,140 --> 00:29:05,190 Do you have to keep increasing that universal income because you're not actually increasing efficiency or capacity across the rest of the economy in society? 461 00:29:05,730 --> 00:29:08,430 Business plans, uh, bullshit. 462 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,900 I mean, hell, I mean there, it's nice, it's nice to write things down, but how often do you actually stick to. 463 00:29:13,764 --> 00:29:15,895 Okay, that's the end of the quick, far round. 464 00:29:15,895 --> 00:29:18,205 You've got, uh, 312 points. 465 00:29:18,475 --> 00:29:18,865 Oh, excellent. 466 00:29:19,165 --> 00:29:20,995 Out of, out of 5,000, isn't it? 467 00:29:25,824 --> 00:29:33,355 Uh, also, if anyone wants to learn more about Horatio's Garden and, and how they can get involved, whether that's, that's supporting it or, or volunteering at gardens, raising money for it. 468 00:29:33,685 --> 00:29:37,495 Please get in touch about that as well, um, uh, with me or, or the charity. 469 00:29:37,495 --> 00:29:40,975 It's really phenomenal the work that they, that they do and the impact they have on people's lives. 470 00:29:40,975 --> 00:29:44,995 So, uh, either, either one would, would, uh, make me happy. 471 00:29:46,315 --> 00:29:52,135 So that was this week's episode of BW b Extra, and we'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday. 472 00:29:52,495 --> 00:29:53,965 Until then, it's goodbye.