Speaker:

- The views and opinions expressed

Speaker:

during this podcast are

those of our guests.

Speaker:

No one person speaks for A.A. as a whole.

Speaker:

- So in a lot of ways

I think of these stories

Speaker:

as a new doorway that

leads into the same room.

Speaker:

- Provide hope and identification,

Speaker:

making them feel like

they belong here as well.

Speaker:

- Service was just like

delicious. I loved it.

Speaker:

- We need this now, not

later. We need this yesterday.

Speaker:

- The first is my tribal

community, which gave me life.

Speaker:

And then the second

Speaker:

of course is the A.A. fellowship,

which saved my life.

Speaker:

- Even though Alcoholics

Anonymous has been around

Speaker:

for 90 years, we're still

evolving and changing.

Speaker:

When the Fellowship of

Alcoholics Anonymous communicates

Speaker:

that action must be taken for the message

Speaker:

to be more accessible, this

is known as an expressed need.

Speaker:

In this episode, we will be

exploring a few examples of

Speaker:

how expressed needs are

communicated and fulfilled in A.A.

Speaker:

My name is Nathan and I'm an

alcoholic. Welcome to GSO.

Speaker:

While there are no special

alcoholics, there are alcoholics

Speaker:

who experience barriers to

accessing the A.A. message.

Speaker:

When we provide shared

experience from A.A. members from

Speaker:

different walks of life

Speaker:

and facing various

challenges, we give hope

Speaker:

to the newcomer out there who

might feel isolated and alone.

Speaker:

We tell them, you too can recover.

Speaker:

By the spring of 2024, GSO

had been receiving more

Speaker:

and more inquiries from

the fellowship on how

Speaker:

to better communicate the A.A. program

Speaker:

to neurodivergent members.

Speaker:

Neurodivergent is a term

Speaker:

that describes people whose

brains process information

Speaker:

differently than most people.

Speaker:

Neurodivergent people may

have different strengths

Speaker:

and challenges than people

whose brains develop more

Speaker:

typically. The term

neurodivergent can include those

Speaker:

with autism, ADHD,

dyslexia, OCD, Down syndrome,

Speaker:

and Tourette syndrome to name a few.

Speaker:

In response to this

expressed need, the Treatment

Speaker:

and Accessibility Staff

Coordinator made a request

Speaker:

to the fellowship for shared

experience on the subject in

Speaker:

order to help members carry the message.

Speaker:

The response from the fellowship proved

Speaker:

incredibly beneficial.

Speaker:

One email that was received

included an open letter

Speaker:

to Neurotypical Alcoholics.

Speaker:

This was written by Six H.

Speaker:

- Thank you for having me.

Speaker:

- Who at the time was a

District Accessibilities chair.

Speaker:

Here's Six sharing an

excerpt of their letter.

Speaker:

- We're the quiet ones.

We're the loud ones.

Speaker:

We're the ones you wish would be quiet,

Speaker:

the ones you wonder why

they never talk, the ones

Speaker:

who won't stop moving,

Speaker:

the ones who daydream,

the ones with childish

Speaker:

or obsessive interests.

We're the neurodivergents

Speaker:

and we walk among you.

Speaker:

We try to conform to fit

in, but we tend to stand out

Speaker:

or to not be seen.

Speaker:

You've probably met many of us,

Speaker:

but you didn't know what

you were looking at.

Speaker:

You were most likely

frustrated with us or annoyed.

Speaker:

You couldn't understand how

anyone could act like that.

Speaker:

Our personalities

Speaker:

and presentations are across the spectrum,

Speaker:

just like the varied histories

of many an alcoholic,

Speaker:

the same but different.

Speaker:

We can be alcoholics, we

can suffer from alcoholism.

Speaker:

We can recover from a

hopeless state of mind

Speaker:

and body through the 12

steps, the Fellowship

Speaker:

of Alcoholics Anonymous

Speaker:

and a higher power of

our own understanding.

Speaker:

We can be a small part of a

great whole if you make space

Speaker:

for us, please make space for us.

Speaker:

- Thank you so much for sharing

that piece with us, Six.

Speaker:

Would you mind sharing a

bit about what brought you

Speaker:

to the rooms of Alcoholics

Anonymous in the first place?

Speaker:

- Sure. I was introduced

Speaker:

to Alcoholics Anonymous

in a psychiatric hospital.

Speaker:

I was on the psych side.

Speaker:

I wasn't there for rehab or detox,

Speaker:

but a group leader didn't show up

Speaker:

and a guy, one of the techs, got up

Speaker:

and gave his lead instead.

Speaker:

And he talked about his

relationship with alcohol

Speaker:

and it blew my mind

Speaker:

because I had never heard anyone

talk about alcohol the way

Speaker:

that I drank.

Speaker:

And he said that he worked the Fellowship

Speaker:

of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Speaker:

So I decided to come and check out A.A.

Speaker:

and I came in here and the

very first meeting I went to

Speaker:

a lady shared that she

deals with extra issues.

Speaker:

So not only did I find

people who drink the same way

Speaker:

that I do, but also deal with extra issues

Speaker:

and were a part of this fellowship.

Speaker:

- Were you expecting to find

other individuals that dealt

Speaker:

with other issues in

addition to alcoholism?

Speaker:

- I was very surprised by that.

That was the biggest thing.

Speaker:

I've known lots of people who

struggle with lots of stuff,

Speaker:

but not anybody that

had actually been able

Speaker:

to use the 12 steps and

be active in service

Speaker:

and do all the things that

Alcoholics Anonymous offers

Speaker:

and be able to be useful and helpful.

Speaker:

And even though I still deal

with those extra issues,

Speaker:

find ways to manage them so

that I still can be helpful

Speaker:

and useful in my own way.

Speaker:

- Yeah, helpful and useful.

Speaker:

In your letter you, you wrote

about a desire to be useful

Speaker:

and for a lot of us in A.A. I find that

Speaker:

that's a universal

desire to be of service.

Speaker:

And what is being involved

in general service in

Speaker:

A.A. been like for you?

Speaker:

What's the experience been like?

Speaker:

- At first it was utterly terrifying.

Speaker:

I'm very lucky

Speaker:

that my first sponsor was very

thorough in the traditions

Speaker:

as well as the steps,

Speaker:

and they basically put me

Speaker:

to work without me even knowing it.

Speaker:

They took me to area and

they said, stand here

Speaker:

and hand out these flyers.

Speaker:

At the time I rarely talked

Speaker:

and I darn sure did not

talk willingly to people

Speaker:

and I was like, this

isn't something I can do.

Speaker:

And she was like, yeah, it is.

Speaker:

Just hold out your hand with

the flyer in it. That's it.

Speaker:

And that was my introduction into service.

Speaker:

And like you feel it's

such a little thing.

Speaker:

It's such a little thing to

stand there and hand out flyers,

Speaker:

but it makes you a part of

Speaker:

and for somebody that has

never been a part of that

Speaker:

was really helpful.

Speaker:

- Wow. Wow. So you said at

Speaker:

that time you weren't talking very much.

Speaker:

And here we are on a podcast

and all we're doing is talking.

Speaker:

- Well, I've been in the

fellowship of A.A. for 15 years.

Speaker:

I have 10 years sober.

Speaker:

My sobriety date is April 26th, 2015.

Speaker:

It's taken me a long time

to get where I am now,

Speaker:

but when I was seven, they wanted

Speaker:

to put me in an institution

and leave me there.

Speaker:

And now I have my own place.

Speaker:

I draw and illustrate and bright

Speaker:

and am active in A.A.

Speaker:

and also with some autism

services here, I get

Speaker:

to be a big part of this world

Speaker:

and I get to give back

instead of always taking

Speaker:

- Sounds like service was a very positive

Speaker:

experience from the jump

Speaker:

- Service was just like delicious.

Speaker:

I loved it.

Speaker:

My first area, I was

terrified of everything there,

Speaker:

but it was amazing to watch

our like business side

Speaker:

of the fellowship, how

people would go up to the mic

Speaker:

and have strong opinions,

Speaker:

but yet everybody still

stayed like cordial and nice

Speaker:

and genuine with each other.

Speaker:

They weren't just faking stuff

Speaker:

and having these conversations

like- It was amazing

Speaker:

to know more about that's going on

Speaker:

and that's available for us

Speaker:

who do much better in the

service structure than in

Speaker:

the meeting side. Yeah.

Speaker:

- What was the impetus behind

writing the open letter?

Speaker:

- Well, one, there was a call out

Speaker:

for Neurodivergent stories.

Speaker:

- How did that feel to know

Speaker:

that the general service office was asking

Speaker:

for shared experience from

Neurodivergent members?

Speaker:

- Really fricking cool. Like

I got- Yes, it was so cool.

Speaker:

And then somebody responded to

it like that was like, yeah,

Speaker:

that was cool.

Speaker:

But my last sponsor has

been really instrumental in

Speaker:

giving me the confidence

to stand up for things

Speaker:

that I need, like the

hugging and handshakes.

Speaker:

I always used to just go along with that

Speaker:

because that seemed to

be what everybody did.

Speaker:

And so I just went along with it.

Speaker:

Well, hugs feel like fire to

me. I don't like them at all.

Speaker:

I don't find comfort in them,

Speaker:

but he gave me permission to say no.

Speaker:

In fact, he told me, you will say no.

Speaker:

And when I started doing that,

Speaker:

people figured out pretty

quickly that I'm not a hugger.

Speaker:

So I wanted to let other

neurodivergents know

Speaker:

that this fellowship is open to them,

Speaker:

but we have to put our

own boundaries in place

Speaker:

and we have to be willing to enforce them.

Speaker:

But if we do that just for a little bit,

Speaker:

everyone else will figure it out.

Speaker:

Now people don't come up to hug me,

Speaker:

or if they do, they ask politely first.

Speaker:

- What do you think

A.A. as a whole could do

Speaker:

to improve accessibility to the message

Speaker:

for neurodivergent members

and potential members?

Speaker:

- That whole accepting thing, right?

Speaker:

Just being accepting

that we're gonna come in

Speaker:

and be a bit different and that's not bad.

Speaker:

Allowing for weirdness in your

meetings that people get up

Speaker:

and move around and that's okay.

Speaker:

That different communication

methods are needed

Speaker:

sometimes. There's nothing wrong

Speaker:

with somebody playing on their phone

Speaker:

or a lot of meetings are

far too overwhelming,

Speaker:

they're far too loud and chaotic

Speaker:

and I really can't be present for them,

Speaker:

but I can be present if I put

in my headphones and draw.

Speaker:

So I'm still in there with you all.

Speaker:

I just can't be there at the same level

Speaker:

that you guys are at, but

I still wanna be a part of.

Speaker:

- Well, we are really grateful

Speaker:

and fortunate that you're willing

Speaker:

and able to speak with us today.

Speaker:

- Thank you.

Speaker:

- For more information about A.A.

Speaker:

please visit our website at aa.org.

Speaker:

- Let's explore another example of

Speaker:

how expressed need is communicated

Speaker:

to the General Service Office.

Speaker:

A suggestion was made

Speaker:

to have the pamphlet

titled The A.A. Group,

Speaker:

Where it All Begins interpreted

into American Sign Language.

Speaker:

This would mean that an ASL interpreter

Speaker:

or interpreters would be filmed

interpreting the pamphlet

Speaker:

and that video would be

available to the public. In order

Speaker:

to better understand this expressed need

Speaker:

a meeting was held online with Kelley,

Speaker:

the Accessibilities Staff

Coordinator at the time,

Speaker:

and 11 deaf A.A. members

Speaker:

to discuss this very topic.

You'll hear the voice

Speaker:

of a professional ASL interpreter.

Speaker:

When the group was asked

if the pamphlet should be

Speaker:

interpreted into ASL,

the answer was unanimous.

Speaker:

- Yes, absolutely. I love the idea.

Speaker:

In my opinion, the pamphlet needs

Speaker:

to be interpreted into ASL. Yes.

Speaker:

- In order to properly this express need,

Speaker:

we need to know why.

Speaker:

- Because we in the deaf community,

we rely so much on the visual

Speaker:

because it's our primary language.

Speaker:

You know, ASL is our first language

Speaker:

with the facial expressions.

Speaker:

- You know, when you look

at the English sentences,

Speaker:

it's really hard for us deaf folks

Speaker:

to really understand complete concepts.

Speaker:

And that's all I wanna

share. Does anybody else?

Speaker:

- It's five years out of COVID,

Speaker:

we're still seeing

struggles about learning how

Speaker:

to run a healthy meeting.

Speaker:

We need this now, not later.

We need this yesterday.

Speaker:

So we need to get this

passed when it comes to...

Speaker:

- And we are

reminded why it's important

Speaker:

to hear directly from those A.A. members

Speaker:

with the expressed need.

Speaker:

- Oftentimes hearing

people are making decisions

Speaker:

for the deaf community.

Speaker:

And that's something

important to be mindful of,

Speaker:

that if we do go ahead

with making these videos,

Speaker:

it is important to check

with the deaf community,

Speaker:

the deaf members, to make

sure the signs are correct...

Speaker:

- Thank you for coordinating this meeting,

Speaker:

and Kelley, I appreciate you

recognizing your hearing

Speaker:

privilege, and that means a lot.

Speaker:

- We've now heard a couple examples of

Speaker:

how needs are expressed in A.A.

Speaker:

So let's explore how

expressed needs are fulfilled.

Speaker:

When an expressed need is brought

Speaker:

to the General Service Conference

Speaker:

as a proposed agenda item

Speaker:

and is passed, working groups

are established made up

Speaker:

of Appointed Committee

Members (ACMs) with backgrounds

Speaker:

that may best serve the

fulfillment of that expressed need.

Speaker:

I had a chat with two ACMs

as they began the process

Speaker:

of creating new AAWS publications.

Speaker:

I'm sitting down with Manisha G.

Speaker:

and Brian P. who are both

Appointed Committee Members.

Speaker:

Manisha, you're an

Appointed Committee Member

Speaker:

to lead the working group for the pamphlet

Speaker:

for the trans alcoholic.

Speaker:

And Brian, you're an

Appointed Committee Member

Speaker:

to lead the working group for

the pamphlet for the Asian

Speaker:

and Asian American alcoholic.

Speaker:

- Yes.

- Thank you both for joining us today.

Speaker:

- Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Speaker:

- Could you walk us through

Speaker:

what these working groups are doing?

Speaker:

What is the process for

creating a new A.A. pamphlet?

Speaker:

Manisha, we will start with you.

Speaker:

The idea of creating a resource

Speaker:

for trans alcoholics has come

up for the past five years

Speaker:

or so in proposed agenda items,

Speaker:

and in 2024, the conference

passed an advisory action

Speaker:

to create a pamphlet

for the trans alcoholic.

Speaker:

This brings us to today.

Speaker:

- Yeah. So the main part of

the pamphlet will be stories

Speaker:

from people in the community,

Speaker:

specifically in this case

it's people who identified

Speaker:

as trans, which is a pretty umbrella term,

Speaker:

but it's more basically gender diverse.

Speaker:

It's an umbrella term for

like, you don't identify

Speaker:

with the sex you're born with.

Speaker:

So the working group members

are part of that community.

Speaker:

And the purpose of the pamphlet is

Speaker:

to help the person who's not here. Right?

Speaker:

- Yeah. Brian? - And the deadline

Speaker:

March 31st, 2026.

Speaker:

And up until then, our focus

is really on outreaching

Speaker:

and helping people write their stories

Speaker:

through writing workshops

Speaker:

and solicit as many stories as we can.

Speaker:

- So we've been talking on

the podcast about the service

Speaker:

structure and, and the

upside down triangle.

Speaker:

So in the end, who gets the final, say?

Speaker:

Who gets to press send?

Speaker:

- So everything that the

working group does result in

Speaker:

recommendations from the working group

Speaker:

to the trustees literature committee.

Speaker:

And so the literature committee

makes the final decisions,

Speaker:

but they will be relying

on us to inform them

Speaker:

and provide input from the community.

Speaker:

- Absolutely. The point is

that why the working group is,

Speaker:

is in the community is

because we are connected

Speaker:

to the community and we understand the

Speaker:

barriers and the challenges.

Speaker:

And so our, part of our job is

to actually outreach to them,

Speaker:

people in the community

who have, who have stories

Speaker:

of recovery that can really

help with our primary purpose.

Speaker:

- We're really trying to

choose a group of people

Speaker:

that are very diverse geographically.

Speaker:

And for the Asian

pamphlet, since it covers

Speaker:

so many different ethnicities

Speaker:

and cultures, we wanna have a diversity

Speaker:

of cultures there too, so

that all of us will be able

Speaker:

to reach out to the widest

range of people possible.

Speaker:

- Cool. Yeah.

- What are you looking for in stories?

Speaker:

- First you have to remember what is the

Speaker:

purpose of the pamphlet, right?

Speaker:

It's purpose of the

pamphlet is to provide hope

Speaker:

and identification,

Speaker:

making them feel like they

belong here as well, right?

Speaker:

And so we are looking for

stories that can achieve

Speaker:

that goal, but we also

want the stories that,

Speaker:

that are really grounded

in AA principles, right?

Speaker:

Because I think the, the need

for the pamphlet came about

Speaker:

because the fellowship

identified a lot of barriers

Speaker:

for our community to access the

Speaker:

message of recovery and hope.

Speaker:

So we are looking for stories

which can give members

Speaker:

that hope that you can, you

can overcome those barriers.

Speaker:

- We wanna hear from anyone

with Asian or Asian American

Speaker:

or Asian Canadian heritage

throughout our service structure

Speaker:

in the US and Canada.

Speaker:

Whether you're in a big city

Speaker:

or small city, I think it's

important for us to get

Speaker:

as diverse a range of stories as we can.

Speaker:

I think in many ways,

you know, we're looking

Speaker:

for what's typical in

every good A.A. story.

Speaker:

You know, I think

out of each individual

Speaker:

that might be thinking

about submitting a story,

Speaker:

what we would want is for

them to be just very open

Speaker:

and very honest.

Speaker:

And then ultimately what

we really want is the hope

Speaker:

that comes from recovery.

Speaker:

- I think it's interesting

what you said about looking

Speaker:

for stories that's good

with any A.A. story, right?

Speaker:

Why is it important to create literature

Speaker:

that reflects different

kinds of lived experiences?

Speaker:

- I think having that

identification is so important

Speaker:

because, you know, alcoholism

Speaker:

is what we are here for, right?

Speaker:

That's is, that is the

main identification.

Speaker:

But if you are not feeling

like there's somebody like you

Speaker:

here, then it's really hard to stay.

Speaker:

And so if you have a pamphlet

that's really assuring,

Speaker:

there's also guidance for others.

Speaker:

Like not only just

people in the community,

Speaker:

but also for sponsors,

Speaker:

because there's a lot of there

that people may not be aware

Speaker:

of and may not know how to navigate.

Speaker:

So it's helpful for people

who are trying to help them,

Speaker:

like sponsors or even professionals

to read those pamphlet

Speaker:

and see, look from their stories

Speaker:

and say, what's worked?

What's not worked. Yeah.

Speaker:

- Brian,

- Do you have anything you wanna

Speaker:

- Share?

Speaker:

You know, those of us who have been

Speaker:

around A.A. a long time are

more familiar with it,

Speaker:

know very well that A.A. works

across a lot of cultures

Speaker:

and all types of people.

Speaker:

Anyone who walks through

the door, we can help

Speaker:

and is welcome, but somebody

coming for the first time

Speaker:

when they walk into a room,

Speaker:

it's just a very small

group in their community.

Speaker:

And sometimes people don't

live in diverse communities,

Speaker:

you know, if somebody's an Asian person,

Speaker:

they might be the only one there.

Speaker:

And sometimes there's

cultural misconceptions.

Speaker:

Some people don't think it's a problem

Speaker:

that Chinese people can have.

Speaker:

You know, having the pamphlet

available, you know, on a rack,

Speaker:

you know, through the aa.org website.

Speaker:

Or when somebody searches

Speaker:

for Asian American Alcoholics

Anonymous to see a pamphlet,

Speaker:

then they'll know immediately

that, oh, we're here.

Speaker:

We belong. There's been

Asians in Alcoholics Anonymous

Speaker:

for a very long time.

Speaker:

And that could help overcome some barriers

Speaker:

that people might have coming in.

Speaker:

- That's great. That's really helpful.

Speaker:

What are you really looking

forward to with these projects?

Speaker:

- I'm looking forward to

working with the working group,

Speaker:

with the workshops,

hearing a lot of stories.

Speaker:

And as Brian said, like, you

know, as I'm hearing some

Speaker:

of the stories from even

my working group members

Speaker:

or other people we are gonna

hear, I'm realising, oh my God,

Speaker:

my story is not that unique.

Speaker:

Because I used to always

think, oh my god, you know,

Speaker:

I'm the classic trans person.

Speaker:

Like always kept it secret.

Speaker:

I was lying all the time and,

Speaker:

and that's why I drank, which is true.

Speaker:

You know, I was not living

honestly, so I was drinking a lot

Speaker:

and I was like, that was my unique story.

Speaker:

But then I was like, that's everybody's,

Speaker:

that's a textbook story.

Speaker:

So it's kind of comforting

at the same time to know

Speaker:

that, like that ident.

Speaker:

So I'm also healing in

that process myself,

Speaker:

and I think that's very powerful.

Speaker:

- We, of course, do everything

Speaker:

to assure anonymity is

protected in these stories.

Speaker:

That's incredibly important when sharing

Speaker:

anything from members.

Speaker:

But I imagine there may be some

folks who would be hesitant

Speaker:

to share just because of the

content of their stories.

Speaker:

Maybe they're from a very small community,

Speaker:

they feel like certain aspects

Speaker:

of their story could

compromise their anonymity.

Speaker:

Is there anything we can do

Speaker:

to further ensure it's protected?

Speaker:

- No, that's a very good question. I think

Speaker:

it's a big concern as well.

Speaker:

I think we wanna make it also very clear.

Speaker:

We make sure that any information

Speaker:

that could be identifiable

will be removed.

Speaker:

So we wanna be able to protect people's

Speaker:

anonymity as much as we can. Yeah.

Speaker:

- What if an A.A. member

wants to submit a story,

Speaker:

but they submit it in

a different language?

Speaker:

Would you still accept

the story as a submission?

Speaker:

- Yes. We would be very interested

in those stories as well.

Speaker:

Actually, any stories from any members,

Speaker:

however they can turn them in.

Speaker:

Our conference operates

in English, French,

Speaker:

and Spanish, so we always

accept those stories.

Speaker:

For other ones, you know,

some arrangements might need

Speaker:

to be made, but we encourage them

Speaker:

to email us at the story

submission email address,

Speaker:

which is pamphletstories@aa.org.

Speaker:

That's no spaces or punctuation,

just pamphlet stories

Speaker:

or literature@aa.org.

Speaker:

And we will accept

handwritten stories too.

Speaker:

- That's good to know.

- You know, a lot of times I think

Speaker:

of these pamphlets that

we have, like Black

Speaker:

in AA, we have a pamphlet

for Indigenous People in A.A.,

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women, Hispanic women,

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people in the armed

services, just to name a few.

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You read through those

pamphlets from the cover,

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it identifies a certain type of person,

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but where the stories

always end up is in A.A.

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where we're all together.

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So in, in a lot of ways,

I think of these stories

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as a new doorway that

leads into the same room.

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You know, just like a

welcome mat towards a,

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a particular community.

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While we are all the same as alcoholics,

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we do have different experiences.

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Having a resource where people can see

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that people struggled in the same way,

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but still found a solution

in A.A. can give hope.

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- Brian Manisha, thank you

so much for joining us today.

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- Thank you so much.

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- Yes.

Thank you for having us

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- To find a meeting near

you or a meeting online

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download the Meeting Guide

app on your mobile device.

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- And finally, what's it

like to be on the other side

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of fulfilling an expressed need in A.A.?

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After the countless hours

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of service on a given

project has concluded

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after the action is implemented.

For this experience, I spoke

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with one more ACM.

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We're sitting down with Jerry R.,

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an Appointed Committee Member

who led the working group

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for updating the pamphlet, now known

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as Indigenous People in A.A.

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Thank you for joining us, Jerry.

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- Thank you, Nathan. It's

wonderful to be here.

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- What was the process like

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to work on updating the pamphlet?

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- As any experience I've had

in service working Alcoholics

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Anonymous, certainly a

process of growth for me,

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just really an incredible

experience to first of all work

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with the Trustees Literature Committee

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and be able to reach out

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to the indigenous community

within the A.A. fellowship.

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And first of all, invite

people to come aboard

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and form that working group

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and go through the process

of organizing in order

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to come up with something

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that served the indigenous

community more effectively.

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And then the other opportunity

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for really spiritual growth

was just putting the call out

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for stories and watching

the fellowship step forward.

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It took some time, as things

often do in Indian country,

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for those stories to come forward.

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We had to reissue the

invitation, the, the call

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for stories a couple different times.

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But once they started

coming in, it was really a,

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an interesting process

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to see the diversity even

within the indigenous community,

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the stories, the experience,

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and just the understanding

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that people gain about

themselves, about recovery

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and even about their

heritage as they recover.

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- You said that you had to call

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for submissions a few different times?

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- Correct.

- Why is that?

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- When you think about it, a lot

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of the indigenous community are in rural

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settings, and they aren't as plugged in

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as many people are in,

in more urban settings.

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Although there are, you

know, the, the largest part

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of the indigenous

population is urban today,

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but there are still

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so many out there in

those smaller communities

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that not only do we need to hear from,

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but who need to hear from us as well.

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And so that interaction always takes time.

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We, we call it Indian time,

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and when you, when you combine Indian time

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with A.A. time, things slow down.

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- Yeah. It takes some time.

- It's a very

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spiritual experience.

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- And those that were chosen,

- Yes.

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- What kind of range of experiences

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or locations did it come from?

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Could you speak a little bit to that?

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- Yeah, we, every single

story represents a different

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indigenous community.

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Towards the end we recognized

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that whether it was someone

who worked on the committee

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or someone who submitted a story,

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there were 32 different

indigenous nations involved in the

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production of this

version of the pamphlet.

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- Why did the pamphlet need to be updated?

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- What happens to much

of our literature is

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that it gets outdated over time.

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And some of the stories in

particular in the Indigenous

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Peoples or at that time was A.A.

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for the Native North American pamphlet.

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Just the title alone

was an issue for a lot

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of the indigenous community

in Canada, for instance.

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And that was one of the

first discussions that we had

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as a working group was, okay,

what are we gonna call this?

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And the Canadian folks

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who were on our committee

were very, very clear

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that they didn't consider

themselves to be North Americans,

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that they were fine with

indigenous or aboriginal.

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So we stuck with

Indigenous People in A.A.,

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and that was the first

discussion that we had.

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And, and it was an important

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one because this is about inclusion,

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and we want to start with

that from the get go.

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- Why is it important to create literature

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that reflects different

kinds of experiences?

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- That's a great question there.

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So I've been in service

work for some time,

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and I have heard a fair

amount of people suggest

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that we don't need as many

pamphlets as we have, that

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what people need to do when

they get to A.A. is just identify

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with the fact that they're an alcoholic

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and work toward our common

solution and recover.

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But what I've come to see,

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and the way I've come to understand it, is

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that pamphlets aren't necessarily intended

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for the fellowship

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currently in the program.

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Our pamphlets are a tool for outreach.

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And so for instance, I was

going through treatment

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and was really not sure

if I was an alcoholic.

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I sobered up in 1990

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and the A.A.

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for the Native North

American pamphlet came out

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in the late eighties.

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So it was pretty fresh off

the press when I saw it on

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that table at the treatment

center, I picked it up

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and coming off of the reservation,

there's a lot of fear.

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There's a lot of anxiety

having been raised on the

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reservation in that culture

with that understanding

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that off the reservation,

there's a whole new world

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that I don't fit into.

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But when I went to recover,

A.A. was part of that

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outside world, and it was intimidating.

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It was scary. It was,

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and people say, well, yeah,

it's scary for all of us.

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Yeah, it is. But when

you come from a culture

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where there are things

like cultural trauma,

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intergenerational trauma,

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and everything that tells

you that you are separate,

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you are different.

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You have been singled out,

it's hard to get over that.

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What a lot of people don't understand is

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that we have the thresholds

to our rooms that people have

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to cross over in order for us

to be able to work with them.

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Outside of that threshold

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there's this big mound

of fear that they have

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to find some way to get over.

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And what these pamphlets are

designed for is to help them

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to be that guide over that mound

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of fear that's in front of 'em.

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And that's what that pamphlet did

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for me at that treatment center.

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I read those stories,

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and though they didn't speak

exactly to my situation,

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I had enough of an opportunity

to identify with them

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that I had just a small

window of hope, enough to say,

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maybe this will work for me.

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Maybe if this person from this

reservation found recovery

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here and this person has a

better life from this tribe.

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It opened the door just a

little bit wider for me,

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and it reduced the size

of that mound of fear

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that I had to get over.

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So it brought me to the doors

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and threw the door of

Alcoholics Anonymous.

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It's a great tool for inside the rooms,

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but it's a fantastic tool

for outside of the rooms.

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That's why it's so important, I think.

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- Excellent. This revision

just came out in 2025.

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I'm sure you've gotten a fair amount

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of feedback from the fellowship by now.

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- Yeah. - Anything about

the impact that it's made?

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- Yeah, it's, well, it's

made some people cry. Yeah.

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In good ways. Yeah.

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Just immediately the feedback

has been very, very positive.

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The indigenous fellowship

has it very warmly,

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and actually, I can tell you that everyone

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that I've heard back from who has read it

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and gotten past that beautiful

cover have responded just

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so positively about it.

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- The cover is beautiful. I

was just talking about that.

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- The cover actually

does incorporate a lot

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of indigenous traditional elements.

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It contains sky, earth, water, plant life,

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and living things.

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The dragonfly that is on the cover,

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pretty much any indigenous culture,

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the dragonfly represents

healing and transformation,

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and we felt that that

was very appropriate.

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Then there were four flowers

on the bottom representing the,

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the sacred number four.

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And so we, we, we jazzed

it up a little bit.

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As a indigenous community,

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- Has there been any aspect

of working on the project

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that's had a strong impact

on you and your sobriety?

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- The impact has been it, it's hard

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to find words for it,

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but I can tell you that the sense

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that I got on a personal

level of being able

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to give something back

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to really two different communities

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that have meant so much to me.

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The first is my tribal

community, which gave me life.

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And then the second,

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of course is the A.A. fellowship,

which saved my life.

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And just to know that I've

been given that chance,

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however the end result is

received, the opportunity

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to give back and to be asked

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to step into this has been tremendous.

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It was just a tremendous

experience to connect

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with Indigenous People from

all over U.S. and Canada,

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and to share not only our

love for Alcoholics Anonymous,

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but our, our heritage as well,

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and just our understanding of

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how closely intertwined those can be, that

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the entire working group stepped

away from this project at

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the end with hearts just

brimming with gratitude.

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I know each one of us

walks back into our A.A.

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community and our indigenous community

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with a lot more desire to

continue to carry this message.

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Because of this experience,

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- You have an obvious

connection to this piece

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of literature, which you've

worked so hard on for so long.

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Besides the pamphlet, do

you have a favorite piece

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of A.A. literature?

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- Mm, A passage on the

fourth step of the 12 and 12.

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It's a simple little passage,

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but it describes to me what the voice

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of my disease sounds like,

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and it's that line that says,

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pride says you need not pass this way.

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Fear says, you dare not look.

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And what A.A. tells me is, yes you can.

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- Jerry, thank you so much

for sharing your time with us.

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- Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you.

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- The pamphlets, Indigenous People in A.A.

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and Access to A.A.,

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where members share on overcoming

barriers, can be found on

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aa.org and the A.A. online

bookstore. ASL and LSQ

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interpretations of A.A. literature

can be found at aa.org as well

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as the Alcoholics Anonymous

World Services YouTube page.

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If you would like to submit

a story for consideration

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for the pamphlets for the

trans alcoholic, or Asian

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and Asian American alcoholic,

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please email pamphletstories@aa.org

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or literature@aa.org.

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Deadline for submissions

is March 31st, 2026.

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- Thank you for listening

to Our Primary Purpose,

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a podcast produced by the

General Service Office on behalf

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of the Fellowship of

Alcoholics Anonymous in the US

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and Canada.