- The views and opinions expressed
Speaker:during this podcast are
those of our guests.
Speaker:No one person speaks for A.A. as a whole.
Speaker:- So in a lot of ways
I think of these stories
Speaker:as a new doorway that
leads into the same room.
Speaker:- Provide hope and identification,
Speaker:making them feel like
they belong here as well.
Speaker:- Service was just like
delicious. I loved it.
Speaker:- We need this now, not
later. We need this yesterday.
Speaker:- The first is my tribal
community, which gave me life.
Speaker:And then the second
Speaker:of course is the A.A. fellowship,
which saved my life.
Speaker:- Even though Alcoholics
Anonymous has been around
Speaker:for 90 years, we're still
evolving and changing.
Speaker:When the Fellowship of
Alcoholics Anonymous communicates
Speaker:that action must be taken for the message
Speaker:to be more accessible, this
is known as an expressed need.
Speaker:In this episode, we will be
exploring a few examples of
Speaker:how expressed needs are
communicated and fulfilled in A.A.
Speaker:My name is Nathan and I'm an
alcoholic. Welcome to GSO.
Speaker:While there are no special
alcoholics, there are alcoholics
Speaker:who experience barriers to
accessing the A.A. message.
Speaker:When we provide shared
experience from A.A. members from
Speaker:different walks of life
Speaker:and facing various
challenges, we give hope
Speaker:to the newcomer out there who
might feel isolated and alone.
Speaker:We tell them, you too can recover.
Speaker:By the spring of 2024, GSO
had been receiving more
Speaker:and more inquiries from
the fellowship on how
Speaker:to better communicate the A.A. program
Speaker:to neurodivergent members.
Speaker:Neurodivergent is a term
Speaker:that describes people whose
brains process information
Speaker:differently than most people.
Speaker:Neurodivergent people may
have different strengths
Speaker:and challenges than people
whose brains develop more
Speaker:typically. The term
neurodivergent can include those
Speaker:with autism, ADHD,
dyslexia, OCD, Down syndrome,
Speaker:and Tourette syndrome to name a few.
Speaker:In response to this
expressed need, the Treatment
Speaker:and Accessibility Staff
Coordinator made a request
Speaker:to the fellowship for shared
experience on the subject in
Speaker:order to help members carry the message.
Speaker:The response from the fellowship proved
Speaker:incredibly beneficial.
Speaker:One email that was received
included an open letter
Speaker:to Neurotypical Alcoholics.
Speaker:This was written by Six H.
Speaker:- Thank you for having me.
Speaker:- Who at the time was a
District Accessibilities chair.
Speaker:Here's Six sharing an
excerpt of their letter.
Speaker:- We're the quiet ones.
We're the loud ones.
Speaker:We're the ones you wish would be quiet,
Speaker:the ones you wonder why
they never talk, the ones
Speaker:who won't stop moving,
Speaker:the ones who daydream,
the ones with childish
Speaker:or obsessive interests.
We're the neurodivergents
Speaker:and we walk among you.
Speaker:We try to conform to fit
in, but we tend to stand out
Speaker:or to not be seen.
Speaker:You've probably met many of us,
Speaker:but you didn't know what
you were looking at.
Speaker:You were most likely
frustrated with us or annoyed.
Speaker:You couldn't understand how
anyone could act like that.
Speaker:Our personalities
Speaker:and presentations are across the spectrum,
Speaker:just like the varied histories
of many an alcoholic,
Speaker:the same but different.
Speaker:We can be alcoholics, we
can suffer from alcoholism.
Speaker:We can recover from a
hopeless state of mind
Speaker:and body through the 12
steps, the Fellowship
Speaker:of Alcoholics Anonymous
Speaker:and a higher power of
our own understanding.
Speaker:We can be a small part of a
great whole if you make space
Speaker:for us, please make space for us.
Speaker:- Thank you so much for sharing
that piece with us, Six.
Speaker:Would you mind sharing a
bit about what brought you
Speaker:to the rooms of Alcoholics
Anonymous in the first place?
Speaker:- Sure. I was introduced
Speaker:to Alcoholics Anonymous
in a psychiatric hospital.
Speaker:I was on the psych side.
Speaker:I wasn't there for rehab or detox,
Speaker:but a group leader didn't show up
Speaker:and a guy, one of the techs, got up
Speaker:and gave his lead instead.
Speaker:And he talked about his
relationship with alcohol
Speaker:and it blew my mind
Speaker:because I had never heard anyone
talk about alcohol the way
Speaker:that I drank.
Speaker:And he said that he worked the Fellowship
Speaker:of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Speaker:So I decided to come and check out A.A.
Speaker:and I came in here and the
very first meeting I went to
Speaker:a lady shared that she
deals with extra issues.
Speaker:So not only did I find
people who drink the same way
Speaker:that I do, but also deal with extra issues
Speaker:and were a part of this fellowship.
Speaker:- Were you expecting to find
other individuals that dealt
Speaker:with other issues in
addition to alcoholism?
Speaker:- I was very surprised by that.
That was the biggest thing.
Speaker:I've known lots of people who
struggle with lots of stuff,
Speaker:but not anybody that
had actually been able
Speaker:to use the 12 steps and
be active in service
Speaker:and do all the things that
Alcoholics Anonymous offers
Speaker:and be able to be useful and helpful.
Speaker:And even though I still deal
with those extra issues,
Speaker:find ways to manage them so
that I still can be helpful
Speaker:and useful in my own way.
Speaker:- Yeah, helpful and useful.
Speaker:In your letter you, you wrote
about a desire to be useful
Speaker:and for a lot of us in A.A. I find that
Speaker:that's a universal
desire to be of service.
Speaker:And what is being involved
in general service in
Speaker:A.A. been like for you?
Speaker:What's the experience been like?
Speaker:- At first it was utterly terrifying.
Speaker:I'm very lucky
Speaker:that my first sponsor was very
thorough in the traditions
Speaker:as well as the steps,
Speaker:and they basically put me
Speaker:to work without me even knowing it.
Speaker:They took me to area and
they said, stand here
Speaker:and hand out these flyers.
Speaker:At the time I rarely talked
Speaker:and I darn sure did not
talk willingly to people
Speaker:and I was like, this
isn't something I can do.
Speaker:And she was like, yeah, it is.
Speaker:Just hold out your hand with
the flyer in it. That's it.
Speaker:And that was my introduction into service.
Speaker:And like you feel it's
such a little thing.
Speaker:It's such a little thing to
stand there and hand out flyers,
Speaker:but it makes you a part of
Speaker:and for somebody that has
never been a part of that
Speaker:was really helpful.
Speaker:- Wow. Wow. So you said at
Speaker:that time you weren't talking very much.
Speaker:And here we are on a podcast
and all we're doing is talking.
Speaker:- Well, I've been in the
fellowship of A.A. for 15 years.
Speaker:I have 10 years sober.
Speaker:My sobriety date is April 26th, 2015.
Speaker:It's taken me a long time
to get where I am now,
Speaker:but when I was seven, they wanted
Speaker:to put me in an institution
and leave me there.
Speaker:And now I have my own place.
Speaker:I draw and illustrate and bright
Speaker:and am active in A.A.
Speaker:and also with some autism
services here, I get
Speaker:to be a big part of this world
Speaker:and I get to give back
instead of always taking
Speaker:- Sounds like service was a very positive
Speaker:experience from the jump
Speaker:- Service was just like delicious.
Speaker:I loved it.
Speaker:My first area, I was
terrified of everything there,
Speaker:but it was amazing to watch
our like business side
Speaker:of the fellowship, how
people would go up to the mic
Speaker:and have strong opinions,
Speaker:but yet everybody still
stayed like cordial and nice
Speaker:and genuine with each other.
Speaker:They weren't just faking stuff
Speaker:and having these conversations
like- It was amazing
Speaker:to know more about that's going on
Speaker:and that's available for us
Speaker:who do much better in the
service structure than in
Speaker:the meeting side. Yeah.
Speaker:- What was the impetus behind
writing the open letter?
Speaker:- Well, one, there was a call out
Speaker:for Neurodivergent stories.
Speaker:- How did that feel to know
Speaker:that the general service office was asking
Speaker:for shared experience from
Neurodivergent members?
Speaker:- Really fricking cool. Like
I got- Yes, it was so cool.
Speaker:And then somebody responded to
it like that was like, yeah,
Speaker:that was cool.
Speaker:But my last sponsor has
been really instrumental in
Speaker:giving me the confidence
to stand up for things
Speaker:that I need, like the
hugging and handshakes.
Speaker:I always used to just go along with that
Speaker:because that seemed to
be what everybody did.
Speaker:And so I just went along with it.
Speaker:Well, hugs feel like fire to
me. I don't like them at all.
Speaker:I don't find comfort in them,
Speaker:but he gave me permission to say no.
Speaker:In fact, he told me, you will say no.
Speaker:And when I started doing that,
Speaker:people figured out pretty
quickly that I'm not a hugger.
Speaker:So I wanted to let other
neurodivergents know
Speaker:that this fellowship is open to them,
Speaker:but we have to put our
own boundaries in place
Speaker:and we have to be willing to enforce them.
Speaker:But if we do that just for a little bit,
Speaker:everyone else will figure it out.
Speaker:Now people don't come up to hug me,
Speaker:or if they do, they ask politely first.
Speaker:- What do you think
A.A. as a whole could do
Speaker:to improve accessibility to the message
Speaker:for neurodivergent members
and potential members?
Speaker:- That whole accepting thing, right?
Speaker:Just being accepting
that we're gonna come in
Speaker:and be a bit different and that's not bad.
Speaker:Allowing for weirdness in your
meetings that people get up
Speaker:and move around and that's okay.
Speaker:That different communication
methods are needed
Speaker:sometimes. There's nothing wrong
Speaker:with somebody playing on their phone
Speaker:or a lot of meetings are
far too overwhelming,
Speaker:they're far too loud and chaotic
Speaker:and I really can't be present for them,
Speaker:but I can be present if I put
in my headphones and draw.
Speaker:So I'm still in there with you all.
Speaker:I just can't be there at the same level
Speaker:that you guys are at, but
I still wanna be a part of.
Speaker:- Well, we are really grateful
Speaker:and fortunate that you're willing
Speaker:and able to speak with us today.
Speaker:- Thank you.
Speaker:- For more information about A.A.
Speaker:please visit our website at aa.org.
Speaker:- Let's explore another example of
Speaker:how expressed need is communicated
Speaker:to the General Service Office.
Speaker:A suggestion was made
Speaker:to have the pamphlet
titled The A.A. Group,
Speaker:Where it All Begins interpreted
into American Sign Language.
Speaker:This would mean that an ASL interpreter
Speaker:or interpreters would be filmed
interpreting the pamphlet
Speaker:and that video would be
available to the public. In order
Speaker:to better understand this expressed need
Speaker:a meeting was held online with Kelley,
Speaker:the Accessibilities Staff
Coordinator at the time,
Speaker:and 11 deaf A.A. members
Speaker:to discuss this very topic.
You'll hear the voice
Speaker:of a professional ASL interpreter.
Speaker:When the group was asked
if the pamphlet should be
Speaker:interpreted into ASL,
the answer was unanimous.
Speaker:- Yes, absolutely. I love the idea.
Speaker:In my opinion, the pamphlet needs
Speaker:to be interpreted into ASL. Yes.
Speaker:- In order to properly this express need,
Speaker:we need to know why.
Speaker:- Because we in the deaf community,
we rely so much on the visual
Speaker:because it's our primary language.
Speaker:You know, ASL is our first language
Speaker:with the facial expressions.
Speaker:- You know, when you look
at the English sentences,
Speaker:it's really hard for us deaf folks
Speaker:to really understand complete concepts.
Speaker:And that's all I wanna
share. Does anybody else?
Speaker:- It's five years out of COVID,
Speaker:we're still seeing
struggles about learning how
Speaker:to run a healthy meeting.
Speaker:We need this now, not later.
We need this yesterday.
Speaker:So we need to get this
passed when it comes to...
Speaker:- And we are
reminded why it's important
Speaker:to hear directly from those A.A. members
Speaker:with the expressed need.
Speaker:- Oftentimes hearing
people are making decisions
Speaker:for the deaf community.
Speaker:And that's something
important to be mindful of,
Speaker:that if we do go ahead
with making these videos,
Speaker:it is important to check
with the deaf community,
Speaker:the deaf members, to make
sure the signs are correct...
Speaker:- Thank you for coordinating this meeting,
Speaker:and Kelley, I appreciate you
recognizing your hearing
Speaker:privilege, and that means a lot.
Speaker:- We've now heard a couple examples of
Speaker:how needs are expressed in A.A.
Speaker:So let's explore how
expressed needs are fulfilled.
Speaker:When an expressed need is brought
Speaker:to the General Service Conference
Speaker:as a proposed agenda item
Speaker:and is passed, working groups
are established made up
Speaker:of Appointed Committee
Members (ACMs) with backgrounds
Speaker:that may best serve the
fulfillment of that expressed need.
Speaker:I had a chat with two ACMs
as they began the process
Speaker:of creating new AAWS publications.
Speaker:I'm sitting down with Manisha G.
Speaker:and Brian P. who are both
Appointed Committee Members.
Speaker:Manisha, you're an
Appointed Committee Member
Speaker:to lead the working group for the pamphlet
Speaker:for the trans alcoholic.
Speaker:And Brian, you're an
Appointed Committee Member
Speaker:to lead the working group for
the pamphlet for the Asian
Speaker:and Asian American alcoholic.
Speaker:- Yes.
- Thank you both for joining us today.
Speaker:- Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker:- Could you walk us through
Speaker:what these working groups are doing?
Speaker:What is the process for
creating a new A.A. pamphlet?
Speaker:Manisha, we will start with you.
Speaker:The idea of creating a resource
Speaker:for trans alcoholics has come
up for the past five years
Speaker:or so in proposed agenda items,
Speaker:and in 2024, the conference
passed an advisory action
Speaker:to create a pamphlet
for the trans alcoholic.
Speaker:This brings us to today.
Speaker:- Yeah. So the main part of
the pamphlet will be stories
Speaker:from people in the community,
Speaker:specifically in this case
it's people who identified
Speaker:as trans, which is a pretty umbrella term,
Speaker:but it's more basically gender diverse.
Speaker:It's an umbrella term for
like, you don't identify
Speaker:with the sex you're born with.
Speaker:So the working group members
are part of that community.
Speaker:And the purpose of the pamphlet is
Speaker:to help the person who's not here. Right?
Speaker:- Yeah. Brian? - And the deadline
Speaker:March 31st, 2026.
Speaker:And up until then, our focus
is really on outreaching
Speaker:and helping people write their stories
Speaker:through writing workshops
Speaker:and solicit as many stories as we can.
Speaker:- So we've been talking on
the podcast about the service
Speaker:structure and, and the
upside down triangle.
Speaker:So in the end, who gets the final, say?
Speaker:Who gets to press send?
Speaker:- So everything that the
working group does result in
Speaker:recommendations from the working group
Speaker:to the trustees literature committee.
Speaker:And so the literature committee
makes the final decisions,
Speaker:but they will be relying
on us to inform them
Speaker:and provide input from the community.
Speaker:- Absolutely. The point is
that why the working group is,
Speaker:is in the community is
because we are connected
Speaker:to the community and we understand the
Speaker:barriers and the challenges.
Speaker:And so our, part of our job is
to actually outreach to them,
Speaker:people in the community
who have, who have stories
Speaker:of recovery that can really
help with our primary purpose.
Speaker:- We're really trying to
choose a group of people
Speaker:that are very diverse geographically.
Speaker:And for the Asian
pamphlet, since it covers
Speaker:so many different ethnicities
Speaker:and cultures, we wanna have a diversity
Speaker:of cultures there too, so
that all of us will be able
Speaker:to reach out to the widest
range of people possible.
Speaker:- Cool. Yeah.
- What are you looking for in stories?
Speaker:- First you have to remember what is the
Speaker:purpose of the pamphlet, right?
Speaker:It's purpose of the
pamphlet is to provide hope
Speaker:and identification,
Speaker:making them feel like they
belong here as well, right?
Speaker:And so we are looking for
stories that can achieve
Speaker:that goal, but we also
want the stories that,
Speaker:that are really grounded
in AA principles, right?
Speaker:Because I think the, the need
for the pamphlet came about
Speaker:because the fellowship
identified a lot of barriers
Speaker:for our community to access the
Speaker:message of recovery and hope.
Speaker:So we are looking for stories
which can give members
Speaker:that hope that you can, you
can overcome those barriers.
Speaker:- We wanna hear from anyone
with Asian or Asian American
Speaker:or Asian Canadian heritage
throughout our service structure
Speaker:in the US and Canada.
Speaker:Whether you're in a big city
Speaker:or small city, I think it's
important for us to get
Speaker:as diverse a range of stories as we can.
Speaker:I think in many ways,
you know, we're looking
Speaker:for what's typical in
every good A.A. story.
Speaker:You know, I think
out of each individual
Speaker:that might be thinking
about submitting a story,
Speaker:what we would want is for
them to be just very open
Speaker:and very honest.
Speaker:And then ultimately what
we really want is the hope
Speaker:that comes from recovery.
Speaker:- I think it's interesting
what you said about looking
Speaker:for stories that's good
with any A.A. story, right?
Speaker:Why is it important to create literature
Speaker:that reflects different
kinds of lived experiences?
Speaker:- I think having that
identification is so important
Speaker:because, you know, alcoholism
Speaker:is what we are here for, right?
Speaker:That's is, that is the
main identification.
Speaker:But if you are not feeling
like there's somebody like you
Speaker:here, then it's really hard to stay.
Speaker:And so if you have a pamphlet
that's really assuring,
Speaker:there's also guidance for others.
Speaker:Like not only just
people in the community,
Speaker:but also for sponsors,
Speaker:because there's a lot of there
that people may not be aware
Speaker:of and may not know how to navigate.
Speaker:So it's helpful for people
who are trying to help them,
Speaker:like sponsors or even professionals
to read those pamphlet
Speaker:and see, look from their stories
Speaker:and say, what's worked?
What's not worked. Yeah.
Speaker:- Brian,
- Do you have anything you wanna
Speaker:- Share?
Speaker:You know, those of us who have been
Speaker:around A.A. a long time are
more familiar with it,
Speaker:know very well that A.A. works
across a lot of cultures
Speaker:and all types of people.
Speaker:Anyone who walks through
the door, we can help
Speaker:and is welcome, but somebody
coming for the first time
Speaker:when they walk into a room,
Speaker:it's just a very small
group in their community.
Speaker:And sometimes people don't
live in diverse communities,
Speaker:you know, if somebody's an Asian person,
Speaker:they might be the only one there.
Speaker:And sometimes there's
cultural misconceptions.
Speaker:Some people don't think it's a problem
Speaker:that Chinese people can have.
Speaker:You know, having the pamphlet
available, you know, on a rack,
Speaker:you know, through the aa.org website.
Speaker:Or when somebody searches
Speaker:for Asian American Alcoholics
Anonymous to see a pamphlet,
Speaker:then they'll know immediately
that, oh, we're here.
Speaker:We belong. There's been
Asians in Alcoholics Anonymous
Speaker:for a very long time.
Speaker:And that could help overcome some barriers
Speaker:that people might have coming in.
Speaker:- That's great. That's really helpful.
Speaker:What are you really looking
forward to with these projects?
Speaker:- I'm looking forward to
working with the working group,
Speaker:with the workshops,
hearing a lot of stories.
Speaker:And as Brian said, like, you
know, as I'm hearing some
Speaker:of the stories from even
my working group members
Speaker:or other people we are gonna
hear, I'm realising, oh my God,
Speaker:my story is not that unique.
Speaker:Because I used to always
think, oh my god, you know,
Speaker:I'm the classic trans person.
Speaker:Like always kept it secret.
Speaker:I was lying all the time and,
Speaker:and that's why I drank, which is true.
Speaker:You know, I was not living
honestly, so I was drinking a lot
Speaker:and I was like, that was my unique story.
Speaker:But then I was like, that's everybody's,
Speaker:that's a textbook story.
Speaker:So it's kind of comforting
at the same time to know
Speaker:that, like that ident.
Speaker:So I'm also healing in
that process myself,
Speaker:and I think that's very powerful.
Speaker:- We, of course, do everything
Speaker:to assure anonymity is
protected in these stories.
Speaker:That's incredibly important when sharing
Speaker:anything from members.
Speaker:But I imagine there may be some
folks who would be hesitant
Speaker:to share just because of the
content of their stories.
Speaker:Maybe they're from a very small community,
Speaker:they feel like certain aspects
Speaker:of their story could
compromise their anonymity.
Speaker:Is there anything we can do
Speaker:to further ensure it's protected?
Speaker:- No, that's a very good question. I think
Speaker:it's a big concern as well.
Speaker:I think we wanna make it also very clear.
Speaker:We make sure that any information
Speaker:that could be identifiable
will be removed.
Speaker:So we wanna be able to protect people's
Speaker:anonymity as much as we can. Yeah.
Speaker:- What if an A.A. member
wants to submit a story,
Speaker:but they submit it in
a different language?
Speaker:Would you still accept
the story as a submission?
Speaker:- Yes. We would be very interested
in those stories as well.
Speaker:Actually, any stories from any members,
Speaker:however they can turn them in.
Speaker:Our conference operates
in English, French,
Speaker:and Spanish, so we always
accept those stories.
Speaker:For other ones, you know,
some arrangements might need
Speaker:to be made, but we encourage them
Speaker:to email us at the story
submission email address,
Speaker:which is pamphletstories@aa.org.
Speaker:That's no spaces or punctuation,
just pamphlet stories
Speaker:or literature@aa.org.
Speaker:And we will accept
handwritten stories too.
Speaker:- That's good to know.
- You know, a lot of times I think
Speaker:of these pamphlets that
we have, like Black
Speaker:in AA, we have a pamphlet
for Indigenous People in A.A.,
Speaker:women, Hispanic women,
Speaker:people in the armed
services, just to name a few.
Speaker:You read through those
pamphlets from the cover,
Speaker:it identifies a certain type of person,
Speaker:but where the stories
always end up is in A.A.
Speaker:where we're all together.
Speaker:So in, in a lot of ways,
I think of these stories
Speaker:as a new doorway that
leads into the same room.
Speaker:You know, just like a
welcome mat towards a,
Speaker:a particular community.
Speaker:While we are all the same as alcoholics,
Speaker:we do have different experiences.
Speaker:Having a resource where people can see
Speaker:that people struggled in the same way,
Speaker:but still found a solution
in A.A. can give hope.
Speaker:- Brian Manisha, thank you
so much for joining us today.
Speaker:- Thank you so much.
Speaker:- Yes.
Thank you for having us
Speaker:- To find a meeting near
you or a meeting online
Speaker:download the Meeting Guide
app on your mobile device.
Speaker:- And finally, what's it
like to be on the other side
Speaker:of fulfilling an expressed need in A.A.?
Speaker:After the countless hours
Speaker:of service on a given
project has concluded
Speaker:after the action is implemented.
For this experience, I spoke
Speaker:with one more ACM.
Speaker:We're sitting down with Jerry R.,
Speaker:an Appointed Committee Member
who led the working group
Speaker:for updating the pamphlet, now known
Speaker:as Indigenous People in A.A.
Speaker:Thank you for joining us, Jerry.
Speaker:- Thank you, Nathan. It's
wonderful to be here.
Speaker:- What was the process like
Speaker:to work on updating the pamphlet?
Speaker:- As any experience I've had
in service working Alcoholics
Speaker:Anonymous, certainly a
process of growth for me,
Speaker:just really an incredible
experience to first of all work
Speaker:with the Trustees Literature Committee
Speaker:and be able to reach out
Speaker:to the indigenous community
within the A.A. fellowship.
Speaker:And first of all, invite
people to come aboard
Speaker:and form that working group
Speaker:and go through the process
of organizing in order
Speaker:to come up with something
Speaker:that served the indigenous
community more effectively.
Speaker:And then the other opportunity
Speaker:for really spiritual growth
was just putting the call out
Speaker:for stories and watching
the fellowship step forward.
Speaker:It took some time, as things
often do in Indian country,
Speaker:for those stories to come forward.
Speaker:We had to reissue the
invitation, the, the call
Speaker:for stories a couple different times.
Speaker:But once they started
coming in, it was really a,
Speaker:an interesting process
Speaker:to see the diversity even
within the indigenous community,
Speaker:the stories, the experience,
Speaker:and just the understanding
Speaker:that people gain about
themselves, about recovery
Speaker:and even about their
heritage as they recover.
Speaker:- You said that you had to call
Speaker:for submissions a few different times?
Speaker:- Correct.
- Why is that?
Speaker:- When you think about it, a lot
Speaker:of the indigenous community are in rural
Speaker:settings, and they aren't as plugged in
Speaker:as many people are in,
in more urban settings.
Speaker:Although there are, you
know, the, the largest part
Speaker:of the indigenous
population is urban today,
Speaker:but there are still
Speaker:so many out there in
those smaller communities
Speaker:that not only do we need to hear from,
Speaker:but who need to hear from us as well.
Speaker:And so that interaction always takes time.
Speaker:We, we call it Indian time,
Speaker:and when you, when you combine Indian time
Speaker:with A.A. time, things slow down.
Speaker:- Yeah. It takes some time.
- It's a very
Speaker:spiritual experience.
Speaker:- And those that were chosen,
- Yes.
Speaker:- What kind of range of experiences
Speaker:or locations did it come from?
Speaker:Could you speak a little bit to that?
Speaker:- Yeah, we, every single
story represents a different
Speaker:indigenous community.
Speaker:Towards the end we recognized
Speaker:that whether it was someone
who worked on the committee
Speaker:or someone who submitted a story,
Speaker:there were 32 different
indigenous nations involved in the
Speaker:production of this
version of the pamphlet.
Speaker:- Why did the pamphlet need to be updated?
Speaker:- What happens to much
of our literature is
Speaker:that it gets outdated over time.
Speaker:And some of the stories in
particular in the Indigenous
Speaker:Peoples or at that time was A.A.
Speaker:for the Native North American pamphlet.
Speaker:Just the title alone
was an issue for a lot
Speaker:of the indigenous community
in Canada, for instance.
Speaker:And that was one of the
first discussions that we had
Speaker:as a working group was, okay,
what are we gonna call this?
Speaker:And the Canadian folks
Speaker:who were on our committee
were very, very clear
Speaker:that they didn't consider
themselves to be North Americans,
Speaker:that they were fine with
indigenous or aboriginal.
Speaker:So we stuck with
Indigenous People in A.A.,
Speaker:and that was the first
discussion that we had.
Speaker:And, and it was an important
Speaker:one because this is about inclusion,
Speaker:and we want to start with
that from the get go.
Speaker:- Why is it important to create literature
Speaker:that reflects different
kinds of experiences?
Speaker:- That's a great question there.
Speaker:So I've been in service
work for some time,
Speaker:and I have heard a fair
amount of people suggest
Speaker:that we don't need as many
pamphlets as we have, that
Speaker:what people need to do when
they get to A.A. is just identify
Speaker:with the fact that they're an alcoholic
Speaker:and work toward our common
solution and recover.
Speaker:But what I've come to see,
Speaker:and the way I've come to understand it, is
Speaker:that pamphlets aren't necessarily intended
Speaker:for the fellowship
Speaker:currently in the program.
Speaker:Our pamphlets are a tool for outreach.
Speaker:And so for instance, I was
going through treatment
Speaker:and was really not sure
if I was an alcoholic.
Speaker:I sobered up in 1990
Speaker:and the A.A.
Speaker:for the Native North
American pamphlet came out
Speaker:in the late eighties.
Speaker:So it was pretty fresh off
the press when I saw it on
Speaker:that table at the treatment
center, I picked it up
Speaker:and coming off of the reservation,
there's a lot of fear.
Speaker:There's a lot of anxiety
having been raised on the
Speaker:reservation in that culture
with that understanding
Speaker:that off the reservation,
there's a whole new world
Speaker:that I don't fit into.
Speaker:But when I went to recover,
A.A. was part of that
Speaker:outside world, and it was intimidating.
Speaker:It was scary. It was,
Speaker:and people say, well, yeah,
it's scary for all of us.
Speaker:Yeah, it is. But when
you come from a culture
Speaker:where there are things
like cultural trauma,
Speaker:intergenerational trauma,
Speaker:and everything that tells
you that you are separate,
Speaker:you are different.
Speaker:You have been singled out,
it's hard to get over that.
Speaker:What a lot of people don't understand is
Speaker:that we have the thresholds
to our rooms that people have
Speaker:to cross over in order for us
to be able to work with them.
Speaker:Outside of that threshold
Speaker:there's this big mound
of fear that they have
Speaker:to find some way to get over.
Speaker:And what these pamphlets are
designed for is to help them
Speaker:to be that guide over that mound
Speaker:of fear that's in front of 'em.
Speaker:And that's what that pamphlet did
Speaker:for me at that treatment center.
Speaker:I read those stories,
Speaker:and though they didn't speak
exactly to my situation,
Speaker:I had enough of an opportunity
to identify with them
Speaker:that I had just a small
window of hope, enough to say,
Speaker:maybe this will work for me.
Speaker:Maybe if this person from this
reservation found recovery
Speaker:here and this person has a
better life from this tribe.
Speaker:It opened the door just a
little bit wider for me,
Speaker:and it reduced the size
of that mound of fear
Speaker:that I had to get over.
Speaker:So it brought me to the doors
Speaker:and threw the door of
Alcoholics Anonymous.
Speaker:It's a great tool for inside the rooms,
Speaker:but it's a fantastic tool
for outside of the rooms.
Speaker:That's why it's so important, I think.
Speaker:- Excellent. This revision
just came out in 2025.
Speaker:I'm sure you've gotten a fair amount
Speaker:of feedback from the fellowship by now.
Speaker:- Yeah. - Anything about
the impact that it's made?
Speaker:- Yeah, it's, well, it's
made some people cry. Yeah.
Speaker:In good ways. Yeah.
Speaker:Just immediately the feedback
has been very, very positive.
Speaker:The indigenous fellowship
has it very warmly,
Speaker:and actually, I can tell you that everyone
Speaker:that I've heard back from who has read it
Speaker:and gotten past that beautiful
cover have responded just
Speaker:so positively about it.
Speaker:- The cover is beautiful. I
was just talking about that.
Speaker:- The cover actually
does incorporate a lot
Speaker:of indigenous traditional elements.
Speaker:It contains sky, earth, water, plant life,
Speaker:and living things.
Speaker:The dragonfly that is on the cover,
Speaker:pretty much any indigenous culture,
Speaker:the dragonfly represents
healing and transformation,
Speaker:and we felt that that
was very appropriate.
Speaker:Then there were four flowers
on the bottom representing the,
Speaker:the sacred number four.
Speaker:And so we, we, we jazzed
it up a little bit.
Speaker:As a indigenous community,
Speaker:- Has there been any aspect
of working on the project
Speaker:that's had a strong impact
on you and your sobriety?
Speaker:- The impact has been it, it's hard
Speaker:to find words for it,
Speaker:but I can tell you that the sense
Speaker:that I got on a personal
level of being able
Speaker:to give something back
Speaker:to really two different communities
Speaker:that have meant so much to me.
Speaker:The first is my tribal
community, which gave me life.
Speaker:And then the second,
Speaker:of course is the A.A. fellowship,
which saved my life.
Speaker:And just to know that I've
been given that chance,
Speaker:however the end result is
received, the opportunity
Speaker:to give back and to be asked
Speaker:to step into this has been tremendous.
Speaker:It was just a tremendous
experience to connect
Speaker:with Indigenous People from
all over U.S. and Canada,
Speaker:and to share not only our
love for Alcoholics Anonymous,
Speaker:but our, our heritage as well,
Speaker:and just our understanding of
Speaker:how closely intertwined those can be, that
Speaker:the entire working group stepped
away from this project at
Speaker:the end with hearts just
brimming with gratitude.
Speaker:I know each one of us
walks back into our A.A.
Speaker:community and our indigenous community
Speaker:with a lot more desire to
continue to carry this message.
Speaker:Because of this experience,
Speaker:- You have an obvious
connection to this piece
Speaker:of literature, which you've
worked so hard on for so long.
Speaker:Besides the pamphlet, do
you have a favorite piece
Speaker:of A.A. literature?
Speaker:- Mm, A passage on the
fourth step of the 12 and 12.
Speaker:It's a simple little passage,
Speaker:but it describes to me what the voice
Speaker:of my disease sounds like,
Speaker:and it's that line that says,
Speaker:pride says you need not pass this way.
Speaker:Fear says, you dare not look.
Speaker:And what A.A. tells me is, yes you can.
Speaker:- Jerry, thank you so much
for sharing your time with us.
Speaker:- Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you.
Speaker:- The pamphlets, Indigenous People in A.A.
Speaker:and Access to A.A.,
Speaker:where members share on overcoming
barriers, can be found on
Speaker:aa.org and the A.A. online
bookstore. ASL and LSQ
Speaker:interpretations of A.A. literature
can be found at aa.org as well
Speaker:as the Alcoholics Anonymous
World Services YouTube page.
Speaker:If you would like to submit
a story for consideration
Speaker:for the pamphlets for the
trans alcoholic, or Asian
Speaker:and Asian American alcoholic,
Speaker:please email pamphletstories@aa.org
Speaker:or literature@aa.org.
Speaker:Deadline for submissions
is March 31st, 2026.
Speaker:- Thank you for listening
to Our Primary Purpose,
Speaker:a podcast produced by the
General Service Office on behalf
Speaker:of the Fellowship of
Alcoholics Anonymous in the US
Speaker:and Canada.