0:00:05.4 Vickie Brett: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:09.0 Amanda Selogie: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.3 VB: Each week, we're gonna explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:24.8 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:32.4 VB: Hi, friends. Welcome back.

0:00:35.2 AS: Welcome back. So this is a really exciting episode. I just kind of want to get into it just so that we have the most amount of time. You know, we do try to keep these short so you guys get kind of a bite-size piece. But we are really excited to speak to Karen Foley. Thank you so much for coming on to our podcast. Can you just give our listeners a little bit of your background?

0:01:00.8 Karen Foley: Sure. So right now, I'm the president and CEO of an organization that was founded by Jane Addams in 1901. It's called the Juvenile Protective Association, and we provide therapy in schools and in clinics, and we have a research and evaluation arm for all of our work with child welfare. And I've been in the not-for-profit business for about 20 years now, but I was a corporate executive before and left to take care of my son.

0:01:26.8 VB: And, I mean, obviously, we're in the nonprofit world, too, but what we love is how, you know, you have this kind of expansive... Yes, it's like mental health. But one of the reasons we wanted to talk to you is this kind of ongoing theme that we've had since last year is, you know, teacher burnout and how we are able to, you know, try to change the perspective, you know, at the ground level, if you will, because we say this all the time. The teachers, they're really the boots on the ground. And if they have any preconceived notions or they start to label the child in a different way than, you know, the IEP is labeling them, we are left sometimes with no other choice but to, like, move the child or move classes or move schools. So I know the last time that we talked, you had kind of given a really great example that I'm hoping that you can share with our listeners about the important work that you are doing with teachers.

0:02:24.2 KF: Well, I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this because it's so important. Look, let me just set the stage here. I was looking at the Merrimack teacher survey; just came out. 40% of teachers are experiencing burnout such that almost half of them leave within five years. That creates unstable environments for our kids.

0:02:45.1 AS: Yeah.

0:02:45.9 KF: So that is one issue, and it's one of the reasons why we work with teachers and adults in the building. But for me, it's both professional and personal. So one of my relatives had a son, has a son. He's in his 30s now. And she was explaining to me that when he was moved from a school for gifted kids. So he was tested. Right? Kid didn't work out, wasn't a good fit, moved him into public school, got him tested because there was some concern about maybe he has, you know, reading difference or something's going on. They said, "Oh, no, he's just fine." Put him in regular classes, gets through the next couple of years. Kind of tough, she's explaining to me. And then he's sitting there in a classroom that I know I would have loved. You know, stuff hanging from the ceilings.

0:03:34.2 AS: Yeah.

0:03:34.7 KF: All Kind of noise and activity and energy in the room. And for him, it was completely overwhelming. So he [0:03:42.0] ____ and the teacher stopped. Now, for any parent or teacher out there who works with kids on the spectrum, you know, they can be very literal. So he's polite. He stopped, and then he started rolling the pencil, and the teacher lost it. She made this little boy stand up in the middle of the class.

0:04:00.1 VB: Oh my gosh.

0:04:02.0 KF: Rest him down in front of all the students and sent this kid crying off to the principals to be disciplined for his misbehavior. Right? So unfortunately, good people do bad things to kids all the time. But that's...

0:04:15.9 VB: Yep.

0:04:17.1 KF: Is it okay if I just wrap this up with a couple of extras? Because a year later, that same teacher called my friend and said, "You know, I've got a boy in my class who reminds me a lot about your son. Would you mind talking to the parents?" Here's what happened. When she got the diagnosis for her son and went back to that teacher, that teacher was mortified by her behavior and apologized and said, "I had no idea. Here's what was really going on." That little boy was reminding her of her son, who was a bright kid. She didn't think that he was working hard enough, he wasn't focused, he wasn't putting in the effort. In other words, lots of assumptions. And she got triggered by this in the classroom, who had... And in any other context, she might have just talked to him quietly, but because it triggered something personal in her, that was a problem. And so, you know, fast forward, and I hear that this young man is talking to his mom about this situation. He's in his 30s now. And she said, "I didn't even know he remembered it."

0:05:24.6 AS: Right, right, right.

0:05:26.5 KF: Kids do. And what he told his mother is, "Mom, it wasn't just that she humiliated me in front of the whole class. But she gave permission to every other kid to do the same thing." So, what do we [0:05:42.2] ____ like that? It's, I'm so good with teachers. Listen, teachers transformed my life. I love teachers. I think the world of them. And I know that the environment that they're in is so stressful and difficult right now. Being asked to do too many things with too few resources.

0:05:56.9 AS: Yeah, they're human.

0:05:58.5 KF: They are. And here's what we learned. We learned that when adults can get consultation, it's not therapy, you know, but I'm sure it feels like it's from our mental health specialists. Their whole perspective on kids can change. And when that can happen, then that teacher can be more compassionate towards theirself and to the student who may have struggles in the classroom. But it's great for the whole classroom as well. And this is why JPA is so passionate. And we're so excited to be here talking to you today, because we know teachers struggle with this, and we know parents do, too, but there are things that we can do that make a big difference for everybody. Everybody in the community.

0:06:40.9 AS: Yeah. And it doesn't sound like it's this huge thing that you have to spend all this money on. You know, it's really just kind of getting to the core. Right. Of, you know, this teacher. What were they experiencing? And for that particular teacher in that story, it was their own child. Right. And again, like, human. Right. We're all human. And I think that the tremendous amount of stress is, like, sometimes, I mean, I myself as a parent, it's just like, "Why can't you just do what I just asked?" Right. And it's just because, you know, kids just don't think like that. Right. And I think that, you know, for a lot of our listeners that are teachers or administrators, you know, oftentimes when we are talking about, like, what... But what do we do? What do we do? And I think that, you know, one of the other reasons that we wanted to have you on was to talk about the mental health challenges in the school. And your perspective was, but it's not just affecting the students, it's affecting everyone. And you're really the first to kind of talk about that. And, you know, I wonder, you know, the work that you're doing with teachers. Do you... How can an administrator, if they're listening to you and they want to know the next steps to kind of get the help from your organizations, what can they do?

0:08:00.8 KF: Right. Well, there are a couple of things that people can do. First of all, I would say that almost every educator I've met is pretty sensitive to kids with disability and kids who have trauma, and those are similar sometimes. And so they understand the basic concept of social-emotional development, but there's no educational component. There's no consultation. It's a little bit like you can take the driver's ed test out of a book and ace it, but then doesn't mean you know what to do when you're behind the wheel of a car.

0:08:29.9 AS: Yes.

0:08:32.3 KF: And so one of the things that they could do would be to call us and we can do... You know, we're based in Chicago, so if you're local, we can [0:08:41.9] ____ take you on special development. We have materials and manuals and things that we share with teachers. We can also potentially talk about coming to your school. But if you're outside of Chicago, you can give us a call and do a consultation. I mean, here we are on Zoom doing this podcast. So there are lots of ways. You know, one of the things about the consultation is that we can do it individually or in group format. So we work with an elementary school right now where almost all the teachers have been through the individual consultation. That's every week. And now they're doing it in groups. Right. Well, here's why. Because, you know, you're parents, you understand this. Kids change from day to day, and they're very sensitive to their environments. And so you can learn something once, but then you try a particular strategy or approach; it doesn't work. What do you do next? That's why we are involved with teachers for a period of time.

0:09:37.0 VB: Can you talk a little bit about how teachers are being so impacted by mental health challenges of students? Because I think I can imagine some administrators might be thinking, "I don't know that that's really affecting other than just everything that's affecting burnout." But, like, how are you seeing these teachers really struggling? Like, what is that looking like?

0:09:56.5 KF: Well, it looks like a lot of turnover. That's one thing that we've been seeing.

0:10:00.5 AS: Right, right, right.

0:10:02.0 KF: And administrators said, I think that's calmed down a bit. But here's the other thing that we have been seeing in some of the schools that we work with, and that is after COVID, there was a shift in mindset. You know, I don't know of any not-for-profit that succeeds without going over 40 hours a week. You know, we're all working all the time because we do have a lot of resources. So if I've gotta do something at 11 or at six in the morning, or I've gotta, you know, go run out to pick up a new computer for an employee. Those are the kinds of things that we do. And teachers are the same. What happened after COVID for a lot of teachers though, was, you know what? I need to set real boundaries. That was difficult, and I can do that for you school anymore. And that, you know, compresses the ability of teachers to have time to reflect, to plan. And I think that's a real problem for schools and for the teachers that work in them. There just isn't enough time to incorporate all the things that they need to do. And then we keep layering on curriculum changes. And administrative reports and faculty meetings. And it's a lot, it's a lot to handle. And so on top of all the personal things that kids walk in with every Monday morning, teachers do too. And they deserve help and support.

0:11:24.3 AS: Absolutely. I mean, I volunteered in my daughter's kindergarten class and I was. And there were two other adults there, and it was just chaos. And that, you know, just in it of itself. Right. And then when you start throwing on the collective trauma of the pandemic and regression and some of these kiddos that, you know, are five or six now not having any daycare experience, and really the social, emotional, and as you had said, development, which I love. And if you could kind of talk a little bit about that. In our prior conversation, we were talking about, oh, like what do you think about social emotional learning? And you had stopped me and said, you know, learning, it just has this connotation. Right.

0:12:09.5 AS: Which I totally agree. But development, it kind of softens people a bit more. Right. We're always talking about child development and this and taking social emotional learning, and just even changing that term, I think is like, again, it softens people to be like, oh yeah, kids need to develop this. And I think adults do as well. Where development also implies it continues. Right? You're never at the top of it. What has been your experience with that kind of social emotional development within the school setting? Are you seeing it really top down, you know, when the principal is very involved in it? Are you seeing it from the level of the teachers trying to just implement it in each of their classrooms? What are you seeing when you're out there?

0:12:55.3 KF: So thank you so much. I'm so grateful to you for raising that issue. I don't like the word "learning." It's too cognitive. And we're not just our thoughts. We are also our emotions and our spirit. And that's why I like development. Development, as you also said, implies a period of time. You have to develop; you're not starting from a point of view. When we talk about it in that term, we can then kind of look at a kid. And I've, if I've heard one teacher or principal say this, I've heard it a billion times, "That child should be able to do that by now."

0:13:29.2 AS: Yes.

0:13:30.2 KF: And when we talk about development versus learning, it does shift the conversation. You know, somebody told me a long time ago that kids with disabilities in particular, but I would say this is true for kids with trauma too. They can be multiple ages all at the same time. So they can have an intellectual age, a chronological, right, based on their birthday. Then they can have an emotional age, which can be much younger, and then have a physical age. Maybe their motor skills, gross or fine, aren't developed enough. And so when you're working with a child, and here's the complication for teachers, what age are you talking about when you're trying to work with this child? And being able to see a child at multiple ages and adjusting your strategies appropriately can be really helpful to teachers. And it's hard to do in the moment because there's "get these kids back up to speed." The pandemic not for all schools, but for many, really created academic problems and those social emotional development issues that we're seeing.

0:14:35.3 AS: I mean, you hit the nail on the head in terms of a child being different ages. And I love that because it's such a quick visual that, you know, almost anyone can grasp because more often than not, when we're trying to give examples, it's the people in the team that either have a child with ADHD or had somebody in their lives with ADHD, or they themselves have ADHD. It's like they almost are keyed in. Like, you, you can say less to them, and then they'll understand. But it's really trying to get to the other adults that are, that we're all on the same team. Right. And sometimes half of the battle for us is just to try and shift the perspective in that. Yeah, this 14-year-old should know to write in their agenda. They're not. So what are we going to do so that they can, you know, learn this skill or learn a different skill that is the equal of it?

0:15:38.4 AS: And yeah, I would say, you know, Amanda, and I, this is the time where we're in IEP meetings and you know, as the end of the year, crunch and things like that, like you feel the stress of everybody in the room. Even if we're on Zoom, you can, you can see the weariness. What are some tips or advice that you give teachers when they just, they feel like, you know, they have too big of a class, they, you know, they don't have enough pay, that there's more and more students in their class that need certain accommodations or modifications? Is there something through the consultations that you're consistently working with them on?

0:16:18.2 KF: Well, we spend a lot of time talking to teachers about their own self-care. One of the things that we...

0:16:23.6 AS: Wonderful.

0:16:24.0 KF: The mental health world is that when you have an opportunity to be in a safe space with someone that you like and you trust and you're able to talk about your feelings, just verbalizing them can be incredibly helpful. It can be a huge relief. And then our therapists, who are consultants, are trained mental health specialists, and so they know how to hold a lot of that emotion and help teachers work on strategies for their own self-care. And that just validation, yes, somebody else really understands that I'm struggling right now, and I know it's not fair. My niece is a special-ed teacher and she's young. She's just been out teaching for a couple of years, but she loves it. But she didn't have enough help in her classroom. And I was talking to someone in my agency who was a special ed teacher and left because of the lack of resources. And as she was telling me, she was tearing up, and she was telling me these stories, and she looked at me and said, you know, Karen, if I had had C2K, maybe I would have stayed in teaching.

0:17:28.8 AS: Wow.

0:17:29.3 VB: Yeah. I mean, it's so hard because we talk about wanting to give kids a safe place and not only the kids who are really struggling but any of the kids that we're trying to support. But we often gloss over the importance of that rapport between the teacher or the counselor, whoever is that safe place for that student. That it's often like, well, this is the teacher, this is the person that we have. So this is the person that the student just needs to go to. And it's glossed over how important that rapport building with the child is to create that safe place to get to a point where they feel comfortable opening up or even sharing concerns. And I think that that is something that's. I don't know why it's overlooked so much. I mean, yes, of course, we have staffing challenges, but like, whenever I feel like we bring up to a team, hey, I think this isn't working with a staff member because the kid is not opening up. They're not buying in; there's not that rapport. The often thing is, well, well, there's nothing we can do about it. That's the staff we have.

0:18:34.7 VB: And, you know, there's not really any solutions of, okay, if we truly can't find someone else, because maybe we're in a rural place that doesn't have many specialists. Right. How can we better build that rapport? I think we immediately put that blame on the child, which of course doesn't help that counselor or that teacher. Right. Because we're not. Now we're not only not supporting the child in getting them what they need, but then now we're not supporting in giving more support to that teacher to help them build rapport. So I think it's like, it's something that we're definitely overlooking.

0:19:09.9 KF: Yeah. And it's really important. You know, I've worked with a lot of families, and I worked with one family where their child had ADHD and was in middle school and working with a particular staff member. And it was clicking. He was doing really well. And the next year. [0:19:25.6] ____. And it was a disaster. It just was [0:19:29.1] ____ everybody and the parents said, well, I thought my kid's going to have to interact with a lot of different people during their life. And I would argue, is one of two things, if you can. The most important thing is the rapport. It's true in your marriage. It's true in therapy. If you don't like your therapist, you're not going to make much progress.

0:19:50.7 AS: Right.

0:19:51.6 KF: With friends, there are boundaries. But that therapeutic alliance, the teacher-student alliance, is essential. Or the counselor-student alliance. If that's not happening, then you do have to move that child to someone else, someone who will [0:20:06.2] ____. Or they need access to some level of support. Because here's what I have learned. As difficult as it is to change a teacher's impression of a kid, and one of our network heads here told me, if a kid gets labeled in kindergarten, that's kind of it for that kid. And she was very... And it's why she wanted us to be working with her teachers. She said, I don't want kids to be labeled. I know it follows them. Well then, then we have to have teachers coming together talking about it. We have to have, pastors and Imams and you know, wherever you can get that kind of support to talk it through. 'cause usually it's not what's wrong with that kid, it's what's wrong for that kid.

0:20:49.5 AS: Yes.

0:20:50.5 KF: With the teachers, too.

0:20:51.9 AS: Yes, exactly right. Oh, my gosh. Just even that, like, mantra could be our mantra. Karen, if anybody that is listening wanted to connect with you, what is the easiest way for them to connect? Is there an email, website? What's best for them to connect with you?

0:21:09.2 KF: Yes, the best place to connect with us is with our website, which is www.jpachicago.org, or my email is on the website. You can click on that. It's kfoley@jpachicago.org, and we'd be happy to have a conversation with you and see if there's some way we can find to support the whole community's health and well-being because we need our children to be well.

0:21:37.3 AS: Absolutely. And the adults that are around them. And I want to toot your horn just very quickly with your organization's success just this last year. You know, we love data. You were able to report with the schools that you were working with, 87% of the teachers reported reduced stress, which is incredible. You saw a 95% improvement in student-teacher relationships, which you wouldn't even think that it could go up that high. But I mean, yes, of course, with the tools that you're providing them, and a 98% gain into the insights of a student's behavior, which is like again, another half of the battle that we have. Right. Like what are our students' behavior really saying, especially if they have an IEP? And you know, I just think the premise and the work that you're doing is so needed and so vital, and I'm just so happy that we were able to connect with you so that we could share this with our listeners.

0:22:37.3 KF: Well, we're delighted. You know, kindness is underrated [0:22:42.3] ____. And when you bring those two things with the experience that we have working in schools over the last 20 years, in particular with practical strategies that we know that work, change is possible, and it benefits everybody.

0:22:56.2 AS: Oh, that is perfection to end on. Thank you so much, Karen, for your time. And listeners, if you have any questions for us, just send us a message because I have a feeling we'll have Karen on again because it was so delightful. And we will talk to you next week.

0:23:11.7 KF: All right, take care. Thanks, everybody. Be well.

0:23:13.9 VB: Bye.

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