Stars on Sports Intro: It's time for Stars on Sports! A podcast-radio show dedicated to sharing stories about our athletic program at Lansing Community College. LCC athletics has a strong tradition. 25 national championship wins! Over 190 All-Americans! 19 MCCAA All Sports trophies! Stars on Sports will introduce you to individuals that have contributed to our program success and give you the backstory on what it takes to develop it. We'll also dive into and break down the topics and issues facing athletic departments across the nation and right here at LCC. This is Stars on Sports!

Hello and welcome to another episode of Stars on Sports. I'm joined today by our assistant athletic director, Stephen Cutter, and our producer, Daedalian Lowry. And gentlemen, today we're going to talk about. It's actually one of my favorite sayings because I've heard it a lot in the past and I like philosophy. So we're going to go down the philosophical road today. And yesterday I'm in a meeting with a student. She's a philosophy student here at LCC. And we were talking about different philosophers and the class she was in, and she brought up a philosopher, which, you know, that I don't know. And I can't even pronounce his name.

Epictetus.

Yeah. Thank you. And she said it. I'm not sure if it accurately said, but you know what you don't know. And I think she was trying to say that, you know, like, know who you are, know, you know their boundaries, their limits and that. But then you come in my office today and you say, you don't know what you don't know. And that's the one I have focused on and been on in the past. So that's what I want to talk about today and how that coaching staff or freshmen or what? And, you know, I laugh because how do you know what you don't know? You know? And so it's almost like that's philosophy. One of the things we've talked a lot about in our office and I think very important is self awareness, knowing who you are. And you know, again, listen to a podcast this week about a major league baseball player that, or actually the NFL football player talked about. You know, my locker is next to Drew Brees in that I have money, I have a great marriage, I have a great family, but if I can't look at myself every day in the mirror and be happy with who I am, you know, it's hard to be happy. It's hard to feel like you achieved or been successful. And that's about knowing yourself. It's almost like reverse psychology here of you don't know what you don't know, but what do you think of that? And again, they're not researching for this podcast. There's a positive part of that quote and a very negative part of that, that quote.

So, yeah, you know, I turned to my notes when you said, hey, we're going to do a podcast on what you just said. And so I typed in. And that's the beauty of, you know, keeping a journal through the, the whole journey. You end up with a lot of, a lot of words. And what I said about it about three years ago was one of the wild, wildest parts of my journey as a coach is this. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I actually know. I used to think growth was about getting all the answers. Now I know it's about staying curious, staying open, staying teachable. That's why I never stop reading, watching, asking, listening. Because the moment I think I've got it all figured out, that's the moment I stopped growing. And if I stop growing, I can't lead the people that I need to in the way that they deserve.

Well said, well said. And yeah, I mean, you mentioned that how little we do know and the growth, mindset versus fix, mindset, mindset, and continuing to be better every day, but not getting caught up in the negative about you don't know. So don't try and find out where. Being curious, that's one of my favorite things. Ted Lasso. My favorite quote, be curious, non judgmental. And that is true curiosity. I believe, like when I do all my leadership attributes, learning is high on my list of what I like to do. And knowledge is power, leadership is learning, living is learning. And those were like three things that I've always tried to live by. So I do try to learn. And again, we talked about this morning, just books in our office, talking about stoic philosophy recently and getting emails from them and such. So those have intrigued me. But what do you think, Dadalia, when you think of that quote, or Greek philosophy in general?

I knew you were going to throw it this way. And I know nothing about this. I guess the only thing that I can think of, and I'm trying to think of personal experiences that I've had, where this applies to my life. And I do know that I've experienced the notion that somebody has told me, oh, you shouldn't be able to do that. And because I didn't know that I wasn't able to do something, I was able to accomplish It. That's the only way I can think of to apply it to my life. But I can't think of a specific scenario.

I think that's a great scenario. And when you start a new job, when you talk about it like, you know, you come in with some experience, probably that's why they hired you. And it could be minimal, it could be a lot. But. But even within that owner organization, if you didn't work at that organization before, like here being LCC, I don't know what I don't know. So I do try things. I do bring in fresh eyes. I do, you know, maybe take some risks, because why can't we try it here until you fail or get told no. And again, calculated risk. Not, you know, one that would come back to bite you, per se, But I do believe that's big. And then, especially when you start a season or a team is, you know, there's kids on that team or even as a coach, you don't know what. You don't know about that team yet because it's new and it is a way to.

And I will say, actually saying that sparked a memory of me being a bartender and somebody told me that you couldn't take on as much as I was taking on. I was like, oh, I didn't know that wasn't supposed to be a thing. So, okay, yeah.

And you don't know any differently, but.

I had a lot more energy. I was a lot younger.

That does play into doing. Taking those risks or doing what you want to do. And even in coaching or being a student athlete, of having confidence or motivation to try something or do something, because it is important to, I think, rely on experience but also be open to trying something. I don't want to say you don't know, because if you don't know it, how you take that risk to do it.

I think there's often a large gap between perception and reality. And I say it very often, as we start our seasons and we have freshmen come in that they just know what they don't know. And the same thing for our staff. We just don't know what we don't know about them as well. And I believe that we're somewhat of a sensory system for our players and somewhat like, you know, they don't realize that when they're little kids that touching the stove is going to be hot. And so they. They just don't realize it. And then as a sensory system, it's like, ooh, you know, that was hot. That's what our coaching Staff is, and we, we start laying the boundaries and the dreams and, and trying to merge the perception, reality with, you know, just stating the facts and speaking the truth and, and somewhat teaching them. But then there's the other side of it. It's, it's not, it's not a knock on people when something said like, you just don't know what you don't know. There's, there's certainly some positives there too, where sometimes those belief systems can be much higher than what the ability is. And there's nothing wrong with that. You, you want that, you need that if you're going to be successful and a dreamer. And so there's really two sides to it, as there is with everything.

And in our field, I think freshmen are a great example. Just like I talk about new coaches or new hires, and when I hire coaches, I want to hire someone that compliments me or fit the puzzle so that it's not the same because they will help teach me what I don't know or share what I know. But I also think it's true with freshmen. Transitions are tough in life. And I think from high school to college, it's a tough transition. Even the out of season expectations, the time management, the good ones, probably by the end of the year, no more figure out what they don't know and become better at it. But we've also seen, you know, we're at the end of our semester in season right now where it can impact freshmen more than the others because of not knowing where they're at and what they're getting into after a long year in season.

Yeah, I think is you're measuring everything you want to see growth, especially in the student athletes. And if you're not seeing growth, then there's some type of issue there and you've got to figure out, you know, what that issue is. But yes, you absolutely are going to see the growth and they're going to start learning more and more and more and keep stacking those bricks and you're going to see a much better product of just a person. I'm not talking about the play on the field, but the person.

And back to your quote that you had mentioned, because I brought up Greg Hardin before, who was a sports psychologist at University of Michigan. But you know, there were three things that stuck with me in this book, and I can't remember the title of that book right now, but control the controllables. Give 100% of yourself 100% of the time. But the one that sticks to me, that I think applies here is be the greatest expert on yourself so you can be the greatest version of yourself. And so that's true. Back to what you're saying about growing and learning, but know who you are. And again, self awareness has stay sane in an insane world. Yep. Thank you, dad. Dalio, great book. And we'll talk more about that book in general.

That's a lot of perception and reality too that you're, you know, as I said, there's usually a large gap between the perception and the reality.

But I think again, it doesn't apply to you don't know what you don't know. But self awareness, how you know in today's society it's hard because of social media or, you know, and we'll talk about the negative part of that quote right now of overconfident. But those that do have self awareness of themselves are stronger or can grow and emotional intelligence, self awareness is a big part of that. So that's where I was heading with that. To know yourself and know what you need to work on and then go work on it instead of thinking you know everything because that leads to the other side is the negative part of that quote is the overconfidence or not understanding what you don't know or understanding what it takes to get to that next level in reaching churches. I don't know if either one of you heard of the Dunning Kruger effect. Are you familiar with it? A little bit. About overestimating their knowledge and then leading to failure. A little bit cognitive bias. Thank you. Dedal, you're on fire today with pulling up, you know, your role today. You might not know much about the quote, but you know, you're.

This is stuff I know rather than what I don't know.

But that's, you know, I think very prevalent in sport and teams is that overcome, you know, fans critiquing coaches and the critics.

Yeah, the critics is an enormous one. And I think to say it simply, they don't see the early mornings or the late nights. They see box scores or news station reports, you know, they see that kind of stuff. And the critics just don't necessarily know what they don't know either, you know, so there's definitely positive, there's negative.

Yeah. And I think the negative can hurt teams significantly because it prevents them from growing and getting better, which you talked about is important of being a good team. And they don't know any differently. It's ignorance and it's, you know, lack of self awareness or measuring their performance. It's almost Accepting mediocrity a little bit. Again, back to, you know, even other sayings. I say knowing, not knowing what you don't know could be a, you know, it's a fine line of making it a positive thing or a negative thing and it can significantly determine, you know, what direction you go as a person, which then leads to what direction you go as a team. Are there other negative sides of that dunning Kruger effect that have you seen in sports?

I mean, have you ever personally witnessed one of your athletes where, I don't know, I guess they didn't know they couldn't do something and then all of a sudden they found out and then all of a sudden they start to lose that ability.

We've seen really both sides of it, seen student athletes that perform well above their abilities just because they don't realize that they shouldn't be. And then we'll also see that same athlete then go through maybe a little bit of a hard time in that belief system or whatever you want to label it gets pounded on a little bit and then all of a sudden it just sinks and then they start playing below their abilities. So it's very unique to watch. And as I've said many times, the belief systems is really what the driver is in athletics. And if you have the most successful athletes, their belief systems are extremely high in themselves and that is a driver for them to put in the early mornings, the late nights to keep growing. And the ones that struggle are the ones that their belief systems are somewhat of a roller coaster and usually below the line most of the times for them. So it it, the belief system is impactful for it doesn't matter what sport it is.

So they handle what they don't know in a positive way. Ero. And those one that don't to your good question, it could be a hindrance in their performance and their belief system or confidence. And again, confidence is one of those fine words of being overconfident. But you know, you do need confidence in sports to, to be successful. So. Good question to Diane, because I think that does go back to those ones that have a strong belief system and are successful use what they don't know to their advantage.

For sure, we have, we have a systems of success and that doesn't mean that everybody is going to have success out of it. And most of that is just from driven from the belief system. So when we talk about things like you don't know what you don't know and then you end up to Ted Lasso and be curious and Stuff, I mean, that's super, super important. And I know from, like, the business world and stuff, there are plenty of large companies that will bring in people that don't necessarily know a whole lot about that business. But because there's fresh eyes, they're looking for things like how driven are they, how motivated are they, you know, how impactful can they be versus how much do they know? The. The cross and the T's and the dotting the I's of what we're doing here. So sometimes not knowing what you don't know, if you can have some drive and some passion behind what you're just doing for your life, can really impact the business world, too. And the same thing is said in the sporting world. Same thing.

Yeah. I think, again, interesting perspective on experience matters, as we have talked about. But the other thing we've talked about is if you're a good volleyball coach, you could be a good basketball coach because of certain things. And that, like you said, bringing other people in not because they know sports, but because of what they might bring or in perspective mainly to your organization. And I think we see more of that in sports. And then again, Ted Lasso, I mean, he was a football coach that became a Premier League Soccer coach.

But you do know he's fictional, right?

He is. No, he's not. No, he's not. Yeah, that would be a tough sell in the real world.

But point made. Point made.

But, yeah, it is about, you know, having the. The comfortability of taking that risk of bringing in something that isn't necessarily in your comfort zone because you don't know it, or that it might not be baseball specific or basketball specific, but it could be, you know, leadership. It could be strength and conditioning specific. So, yeah, I think that's important of, again, realizing what you don't know. I laugh when I say that because you don't. But to try and compliment it or bring something in to help you with it. And again, that's where I think in coaching, your coaching staff is integral in being that system for you.

Yeah, I think growth kind of looks like that in general from a coaching perspective. And as you continue to grow, you look back on teams or players that you coached maybe one year ago, two years ago, 10 years ago, and you. You somewhat feel bad about it because you just didn't know what you didn't know at that point and you could help. You could have helped them more. And I know I've dealt with that somewhat on a yearly basis where I just, you know, kind of feel bad because, you know, I could have helped them here or there or something else that that could have been a little more transformational for them. And so that's kind of what growth looks like. And I think that anytime you get to a point that you feel like you know everything about a certain thing, that's a pretty dangerous spot. And you're probably going to end up getting humbled or getting passed from others that are working to continue growing.

DARRELL and that's an interesting perspective on looking back and what you could have done per se, because you didn't know it at that time. But the first thing I think of when you think of that is the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The next best time is now. But you think that because you have grown or you have developed, and it was neat at your first pitch dinner a year ago when Zack Sorensen, I can't remember his first name, talked about writing a letter to his younger self. And again, a lot of that is that growth in life which leads to experience, which we've talked a number of times on our podcast of how important experience is in sports. But it's because you don't know everything. And I can't remember which coach, if it was John Wooden or Bear Bryan or something. You know, when you think you know everything, that's when you start to learn and develop or something just stop. So I think back to the, the original premise of the quote, you don't know what you don't know. It could be a hindrance and you stay where you're at, or it could be a motivator or a belief system and, you know, trying to grow and figure out those things that you, you don't know. And, you know, nowadays it's easier than ever with ChatGPT or Google and that with the other thing, you know, professional development, how important that is in our lives of growth. And, you know, LCCs, you know, very supportive of professional development and you should be in any position you have. But, you know, nice that we have coaching clinics in year to participate in, but I just don't think people often enough think of what they don't know, you know, to address it or, you know, trying to conquer it. Anything else to add on that? Hopefully someone knows something now that they didn't know 20 minutes ago.

Keep growing, keep growing. Keep stack.

That's right, keep stacking. All right, so to our final question. You know, in our last podcast, we were talking about meals and cheese came up. So, and both of you acted like you like Cheese. So cheese over chocolate. If you could only have one the rest of your life, which one would it be?

I'd have to go with cheese.

Really? I would.

I can do a lot more with cheese than I can with chocolate, I can tell you that. I mean, I love chocolate, but.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, pizza, more practical. Sandwiches.

Yeah, yeah. You the same cutter.

I feel like it. You know, cheese is pretty impactful and most things, whether it's crackers or sandwiches or chips, you know, so.

S' More crack.

Are you gonna be the voice of descent?

I am going to be.

You're the chocolate guy.

Really? I love chocolate, so I love cheese.

Well, good luck with that chocolate pizza. I'm just saying.

Good point, good point. What kind of cheese do you like? Which.

Actually, now that I'm saying it, I'm going, actually, it doesn't sound that bad.

You can put chocolate on a Graham Crafter crust, you know, wouldn't be too bad. I can make a pizza out of chocolate.

What type of cheese?

Yeah, what type of cheese?

Oh, man. Well, Swiss is my least favorite out of the cheeses. Yeah. But, yeah, I like a Gouda. Gouda's good.

Cheddar.

Cheddar.

Of course.

Cheddar's the good. Pepper Jack's good.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, I try. I'll try pretty much any kind of cheese for the most part. Provolone.

Provolone, okay.

Yeah. I think Pepper Jack's the.

Your favorite.

Probably the favorite. Yeah.

A white cheddar. As far as the favorite goes. Yeah. It's really kind of. Yeah.

See, I'm pretty simple. I mean, I get American cheese on everything. You know, it's not even real cheese, dude.

Yeah, it's not even real cheese.

Probably why I like it processed, but I do. I'll try other ones. I not. I mean, there's. I mean, it's a very big business, and there's a lot of different textures and style and smells the cheese that throw me off a little bit. That's why, you know, even the Swiss, you know, but like goat cheese.

Have you. You ever talked to somebody who just does not like cheese? They do not want to talk about cheese whatsoever. They're just like.

They. They get. They get lit. They get livid personality person. Because I've asked cheese questions before, like with the nacho question, that he didn't like cheese, and it's understandable because he did not feel comfortable.

Most everybody loves cheese. And so you become that person where people ask you, you don't like cheese.

Yeah.

So I get it.

You're right. He was uncomfortable talking about it, so.

But, yeah, one of my friend's sons did not like cheese, and he just got really mad at us when we started asking why he didn't like cheese. Yeah, it's like, just chill.

That's okay. I get it. Okay. But it is.

You don't have to.

It is.

You don't know what you don't know, but you're.

Yeah, right, Right. And. But you know how much it is used in our food. You know how prevalent and how much you can just add it. It makes a change to that dish.

So as a cheese lover, I'm gonna say I. I don't know what I'd do without it.

Right.

Yeah, I can do without chocolate.

But I have your meal then.

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah.

How about you, Carter? You eat. I mean, you eat pizza, so.

But bad pizza, great pizza. Yeah.

Do you put different kinds of cheese on your pizza?

I don't. Yeah. I don't make my pizzas, so my wife does, but. But for the most part.

I mean, mozzarella or.

Yeah, pretty much.

Okay.

The standards.

Yeah.

Yeah, it is. And it's good, so it's great. All right. Until next time. Go stars.

Stars on Sports Outro: Stars on Sports is recorded live at the WLNZ studios. Engineering and production assistance are provided by Daedalian Lowry. You can listen to this episode and other episodes of Stars on Sports on demand at LCCconnect.org to find more information about our athletic program, visit LCCstars.com thanks for listening. Go Stars!