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We have been, uh, talking
about pre-construction the last

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few episodes, and obviously-

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Hold on.

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Our first of our sponsors

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Ah, ProClimer.

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ProClimer.

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Where would we be without
ProClimer, Mattie?

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Um, so ProClimer Studio
we're recording out of.

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And again, thanks to Kaya for letting
us use his office to record our podcast.

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I told you we were a bit loose, Rick.

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I like it.

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I like it.

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I think in the day it's, it's
just, it's a conversation, really.

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This is

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a good- And we've got to
introduce the guest, which we

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always forget to do.

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Oh, yeah, no, no, but let me get to that
first, let me get to that in a second.

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So, so we- we're, Matt and I have
been doing this pre-construction,

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uh, series, and estimating's
probably arguably the biggest part of

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pre-construction, and probably one of
the things that most builders get wrong.

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So today we've got in, I would say,
probably one of the best estimators

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in Australia, and that is Rick from
Estimating Online and- Oh, you're too

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kind And Bluebeam And Blue… What?

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Blue Level.

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Blue Level.

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Blue Level Estimating.

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Yes.

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So Rick, I'm gonna let you introduce
yourself because I didn't even, one,

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know today that you're from Perth, and
two, that you're, like, eight foot tall.

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I'm

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not

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eight foot

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tall.

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I've just shrunk.

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Well, actually I did compare you next
to Matt, which actually made you look-

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That's not fair … like a fucking giant.

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Fucking

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short jokes, as if I haven't
heard that one before.

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Well, I mean, yes, my name's Rick Hughes.

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I have a company called Estimating
Online, and yes, I am quite tall.

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I think most people see
me through the camera.

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Yes.

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So I'm either sitting down or I've
got the perfect angle so it just gets

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my face and you don't see who I am.

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Well, you're not sitting there with a

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tape measure next to
you on the, behind me.

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No.

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Like, "That's how tall I am."

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Well, I don't, yeah, I
don't have the, the graph.

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I mean, sorry, the, uh- The
giraffe … the gir- … the giraffe

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chart with centimeters next to me.

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That's not something
that I wanna brag about.

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But, um, look, I think just touching
on your topic of estimating, I

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think estimating is critical.

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I think a lot of people are starting
to take more notice about it.

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Um, and to be honest, it's more
important than people think.

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So where do we all go wrong with it?

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Because it's something I… So how
I learned to estimate is I broke

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my arm when I was an apprentice.

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My boss just threw me in the office, and
they were like, "Here, here's a ruler.

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Start using the plans." And I'm like,
"You can use computers here." And so from

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there I actually just learned, and they're
like, "Well, you can do it faster."

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But I just learned off their mistakes.

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How did you learn?

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I, I just work out how many
square meters were and just

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put a square meter out to it.

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And so we're not taught, and
I think this is a big thing

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because- That was a,
that was a joke, Rick.

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Yeah.

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No, no.

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That

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was a joke.

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No, no,

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I actually- That was a joke.

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No, I've got a story- But that's how-

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that's related to that, and I
hope I can, I can share, so.

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Yep.

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Yeah.

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So where do we go wrong?

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Sh- share, share as much as you want.

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I feel like, um, estimating's such a
big topic and, like, there is so much

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noise about estimating right now.

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Mm-hmm.

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Like, and I'm sure we're gonna get
to AI, I'm sure we're gonna get to

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modeling, I'm sure we're gonna get to
all of it today, but I think that in

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this current environment where there's
all these shiny distractions, like, what

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are the things that we really need to
take notice of when we're estimating?

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Because everyone, the, the, i- in my
opinion, even these AI stuff and the model

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stuff, there's still a huge amount of work
that needs to go in from the builder's

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side to make sure that that data's right.

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'Cause shit data in is shit data out

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I mean, first of all, there are
so many different pathways you

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can go down with estimating.

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Um, and it is super confusing, it is
over-analytical, there is a bunch load

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of information, and you gotta process it.

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And you gotta forward think, you gotta
think backwards, you gotta think right

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now, you gotta think left, you gotta
think right, you gotta think- And

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context too is really important as well.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I agree.

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Um-

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Do you need to know how
to build to estimate?

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Well, I'm proof that you don't
need to know how to build.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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So I, I'm pretty open and
honest about this story.

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I spent probably half a day on site in
my whole career of the building industry.

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I was a brickie, and-

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For half a day?

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Half a day.

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'Cause I got kicked off site.

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Okay.

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What did you do?

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For a brickie to kick
you off site, it's gotta

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be something

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pretty bad.

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Well… He

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put- D- d- hang on.

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I, I reckon I know what's happened.

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He came with a packed lunch, and
it was healthy and had salad in it.

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Oh.

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He was just like,

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"
Get off." Hell no.

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"
Get off."

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I was the tall, skinny guy
who could eat whatever I like.

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Um, not, not, not now.

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Um, this guy puts a… Well,
the, the owner puts a heap

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of bricks in the wheelbarrow.

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I pick it up, move forward, it
tips over, he kicks me off site.

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I was just a little lanky, weak
sort of dude, and… And that's,

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that's all my site experience is.

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But that doesn't mean I think that
I don't understand construction.

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Yeah.

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So my whole journey is, is I've
spent my entire career in the office.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So working alongside the construction
manager, building manager, project

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manager, estimating manager, contracts
manager, managing director, whoever be,

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just basically learning the aesthetics
of business, and learning and reading

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engineering drawings, and architectural
drawings, and all different types- Were

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you project manager or construction
manager, or it was actually

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always the estimation side?

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Yep.

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Okay.

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Always estimating, scheduling,
counting bricks, linears of skirting.

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Yep.

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You know, from start to finish.

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Tertiary educated, uh?

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No.

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No.

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I… I'm pretty proud about
this story, to be honest.

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I had to have my girlfriend
in year 12 write my English

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essay for me to pass school.

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Right.

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And I really do believe that I'm a
product of hard work and determination

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because I was such a failure.

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It's probably such a common thing within-

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Can I, can I maybe
unpack that a little bit?

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Like, what… So was there dyslexia?

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I'm not saying that's a deficiency
at all, 'cause I actually think

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that… So I'm neurodiverse.

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I'm sure you are.

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I'm sure you are as well.

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Like, I like to see all of these
as, like, absolute superpowers,

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and I think if you look at, um…

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Well, I, I'm not gonna name
names, but I know someone who's

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dyslexic, autistic, and ADHD, and
he is fucking kicking arse- Yeah.

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I think- … 'cause he sees the world

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differently … well, show me a business
owner that doesn't have, you know-

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Some sort … some- something next to

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it.

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Yeah, yeah.

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You

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know, I think that if he- Crazy.

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So it wasn't a criticism.

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I wasn't-

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No, no, no.

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I get it.

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I know … I wasn't saying…
I wouldn't have said it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I honestly… Look, I've never been
diagnosed or I've never been- Yeah, we,

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we just know by, by oursel- yeah.

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You just know- Yeah … that there's
something not right with Brett.

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You know?

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Well, there's

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something different- Th-

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th- the-

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I

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think, with all of us.

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Yeah.

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But sure.

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Well, I think you have to be different.

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Yeah.

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Um, to be honest, I mean, I think
my journey is, is an interesting

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one because I failed at school.

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Yep.

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I couldn't concentrate.

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All is what I wanted to do was play sport.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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My choice was baseball.

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Um, and then in my 20s I sort of, I
had a talent, but I didn't use it.

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So I was very good at baseball.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Um, and I just wanted to party and
enjoy myself and be with my friends

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and, and drink beer and, you know, do
the whole nightclub and girls thing.

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And there was just a light bulb moment
where, you know, I said, "I've got to stop

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wasting my career, and, and you got to
put your head down and you got to do it."

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And I think that that's a
lot about business as well.

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You've just got to put
your head down and do it.

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Now, whether that's estimating or
that's learning how to be a builder or-

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Picking flowers

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00:07:04,763 --> 00:07:06,874
… 
picking flowers or whatever
you want to do, y- you got to

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00:07:06,874 --> 00:07:08,133
concentrate and you got to do it, so.

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So you, so you, so did your learning
time to understand construction,

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00:07:12,703 --> 00:07:13,933
then you opened your own business?

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00:07:14,474 --> 00:07:18,163
Like, did you- Yeah … did you, like
most of us, go into it pretty early on,

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00:07:18,163 --> 00:07:20,653
like, kind of fake it till you make it?

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00:07:21,833 --> 00:07:22,454
Because that's what I did.

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Yes, there was a point of
fake it till you make it.

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00:07:25,153 --> 00:07:25,274
Yeah, yeah.

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00:07:25,274 --> 00:07:26,543
I think everyone's got a story of-

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00:07:26,583 --> 00:07:26,938
Yeah, yeah … fake

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00:07:26,938 --> 00:07:27,573
it till you make it.

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Yeah.

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00:07:28,263 --> 00:07:29,333
I'm still faking it.

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00:07:30,053 --> 00:07:30,863
Nah, come on.

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00:07:30,873 --> 00:07:31,513
Be honest.

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00:07:31,713 --> 00:07:32,763
No, I'm- No, but, but we are, though.

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00:07:32,763 --> 00:07:33,054
We are, though … no, in some

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00:07:33,133 --> 00:07:33,514
things.

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00:07:33,594 --> 00:07:35,232
Yeah, 100% we are.

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00:07:35,232 --> 00:07:36,178
In some things, for sure.

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00:07:36,178 --> 00:07:37,124
Like, yeah, y- yeah, definitely.

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00:07:37,124 --> 00:07:40,384
I, like, my first passive house, I
had no fucking idea what I was doing.

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00:07:40,423 --> 00:07:42,450
But fake, fake it till you make it,
failing forward, same thing, right?

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00:07:42,450 --> 00:07:42,726
Yeah, yeah.

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00:07:42,726 --> 00:07:45,893
There's things that there's always
this progression of the unknown.

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00:07:46,003 --> 00:07:46,364
Yeah, true.

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00:07:46,433 --> 00:07:47,413
What, what's that next step?

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00:07:47,413 --> 00:07:50,153
All right, well, I'm just gonna
try something and hope it works.

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00:07:50,503 --> 00:07:53,383
So I mean, I… Your story
is not too dissimilar to any

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other entrepreneur out there.

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Correct.

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00:07:54,823 --> 00:07:55,053
Yeah.

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00:07:55,163 --> 00:07:55,714
Okay, cool.

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00:07:55,953 --> 00:08:00,883
So then as far as, like, estimating
goes, you've obviously been in the game

251
00:08:00,883 --> 00:08:02,433
for a long time by the sounds of things.

252
00:08:02,443 --> 00:08:08,064
So can I ask, like, over your career
as being an estimator, h- h- uh, have

253
00:08:08,064 --> 00:08:14,393
the fundamentals s- remain true, or
has it changed and evolved as different

254
00:08:14,404 --> 00:08:17,433
building methodologies have come in,
code changes and all that stuff, or

255
00:08:17,433 --> 00:08:18,734
are the fundamentals still the same?

256
00:08:20,086 --> 00:08:24,096
I think the basics of
estimating are still the same.

257
00:08:24,646 --> 00:08:31,466
I started 2007, and I think there's
still some core fundamentals of doing

258
00:08:31,466 --> 00:08:33,165
an estimate which is exactly the same.

259
00:08:33,935 --> 00:08:35,836
Can you maybe, can you maybe
expand on that just a little bit?

260
00:08:35,836 --> 00:08:37,145
Like running a linear meter
or running a square meter

261
00:08:37,335 --> 00:08:41,395
or- Well, we all know about, you
know, the quick rapid fire estimate.

262
00:08:41,476 --> 00:08:41,785
You know?

263
00:08:41,796 --> 00:08:41,816
Yeah.

264
00:08:41,816 --> 00:08:47,245
You, you, you dump some information
into either a spreadsheet or a

265
00:08:47,866 --> 00:08:51,425
digital platform, or you, you
pull an old square meter rate.

266
00:08:52,515 --> 00:08:57,565
But you could also go into such a
deeper element of estimating as well,

267
00:08:57,825 --> 00:09:04,346
and I think, um, there's, there's,
there's pieces of estimating that you

268
00:09:04,346 --> 00:09:08,146
can go really technical, you can go
really easy, but it all comes down

269
00:09:08,146 --> 00:09:09,415
to what you're trying to achieve.

270
00:09:10,605 --> 00:09:15,915
I think I might have confused my words a
little bit there, but it's, it's can be

271
00:09:15,925 --> 00:09:18,306
really complex or it can be really easy.

272
00:09:18,585 --> 00:09:21,636
A lot of people overthink estimating,
but then a lot of people just

273
00:09:21,665 --> 00:09:22,675
under-think it and don't- I

274
00:09:22,675 --> 00:09:24,685
was gonna say, I think people
under- … go deeper into it … so

275
00:09:24,685 --> 00:09:28,155
I think people under- the under-think
it because they just wanna…

276
00:09:28,215 --> 00:09:29,096
So there's a number of things.

277
00:09:29,096 --> 00:09:32,145
They either wanna please the client's
budget straight off because- Oh

278
00:09:32,345 --> 00:09:35,495
… because it's like… And I saw something
the other day, like, and I constantly say

279
00:09:35,495 --> 00:09:40,326
this to everyone, "Your, your budget is
your build cost." That's what it costs,

280
00:09:40,336 --> 00:09:44,728
like, what it costs to build is what was
designed And, have I word that right?

281
00:09:44,768 --> 00:09:47,247
But, and so people just wanna
get there as fast as possible.

282
00:09:47,478 --> 00:09:49,658
They'll try please a client
to be within their budget.

283
00:09:49,848 --> 00:09:51,008
They'll miss a number of things.

284
00:09:51,008 --> 00:09:53,328
You've got an architect putting
pressure, be like, "Well, this person

285
00:09:53,598 --> 00:09:56,808
charged this. Why isn't it this?"
And then all of a sudden, th- people

286
00:09:56,808 --> 00:09:59,207
don't know how to put it together.

287
00:09:59,438 --> 00:10:02,847
So I, I'm just gonna… I, I agree with
this, but I also, can I go back to one

288
00:10:02,848 --> 00:10:06,297
of the things you were saying before
about, like, the, the really quick stuff

289
00:10:06,428 --> 00:10:08,047
and- Yep … the more detailed stuff.

290
00:10:08,047 --> 00:10:08,137
Yep.

291
00:10:08,137 --> 00:10:10,158
And I actually think it all
has its place because- Correct.

292
00:10:10,497 --> 00:10:10,767
Yeah

293
00:10:10,787 --> 00:10:14,867
… 
you know, the, the quick stuff, i-
like, in my, in my opinion- Yeah

294
00:10:14,867 --> 00:10:16,617
there's three types of estimating.

295
00:10:17,017 --> 00:10:20,117
Well, there's three tiers of estimating
that we do within our business, right?

296
00:10:20,157 --> 00:10:20,467
Makes sense, yep.

297
00:10:20,508 --> 00:10:23,637
There's that really quick
feasibility estimating.

298
00:10:23,637 --> 00:10:23,647
Yep.

299
00:10:23,647 --> 00:10:27,267
And it is getting a bunch of data,
putting it into a model or doing square

300
00:10:27,617 --> 00:10:28,877
meterage, and just testing the budget.

301
00:10:28,918 --> 00:10:28,948
Yep.

302
00:10:29,057 --> 00:10:29,838
And it's a range.

303
00:10:29,867 --> 00:10:30,098
Yep.

304
00:10:30,348 --> 00:10:32,727
This is where the industry's
kinda benchmarking it.

305
00:10:32,727 --> 00:10:34,467
Do you feel comfortable with
that to take the next step?

306
00:10:34,467 --> 00:10:38,468
And prior to COVID, a square
meter rate was semi, not accurate,

307
00:10:38,468 --> 00:10:39,898
but, like, it was a lot easier
to be- I think it was accurate

308
00:10:39,898 --> 00:10:40,087
enough

309
00:10:40,117 --> 00:10:43,187
… 
it was, it would work because you
look at the ABS data and it was

310
00:10:43,187 --> 00:10:44,987
1 or 2 point per year going up.

311
00:10:44,987 --> 00:10:46,517
There was a lot, there was a lot
more consistency prior to COVID.

312
00:10:46,517 --> 00:10:46,527
Yeah.

313
00:10:46,527 --> 00:10:48,957
You knew it was 1% going up per year,
like- Yeah, yeah, yeah … and so you

314
00:10:48,957 --> 00:10:51,057
knew kind of it would work, like roughly.

315
00:10:51,067 --> 00:10:51,627
You could gauge.

316
00:10:51,827 --> 00:10:53,177
Now, you just don't fucking know.

317
00:10:53,497 --> 00:10:55,298
But I, I agree with you.

318
00:10:55,298 --> 00:10:55,648
So I'm the same- I

319
00:10:55,738 --> 00:10:58,768
think there's, there's, there's a,
there's a sense checking, um, I'm

320
00:10:58,768 --> 00:10:59,748
not even gonna call it an estimate.

321
00:10:59,777 --> 00:11:02,238
Well, maybe it is the true word
of an estimate because we're just,

322
00:11:02,238 --> 00:11:04,598
"Well, this is where we think it's
gonna be, in this range." Actually a

323
00:11:04,598 --> 00:11:05,427
really good way of putting it.

324
00:11:05,438 --> 00:11:09,848
The next one is more a detailed
costing, whereas I'm separating the

325
00:11:09,848 --> 00:11:13,937
terms estimating and costing, 'cause I
think the second one, you're actually

326
00:11:13,938 --> 00:11:15,438
going through and doing the legwork.

327
00:11:15,627 --> 00:11:19,118
Mm. You're, you're going to trades, you're
getting a model done or you're doing your

328
00:11:19,118 --> 00:11:20,378
takeoffs.

329
00:11:20,378 --> 00:11:21,027
I don't think that's, I think
that's step number three.

330
00:11:21,037 --> 00:11:21,067
Okay.

331
00:11:21,077 --> 00:11:22,237
So maybe there's four steps

332
00:11:22,677 --> 00:11:22,737
to it.

333
00:11:22,737 --> 00:11:22,757
Yeah, yeah.

334
00:11:22,757 --> 00:11:22,777
Yeah, okay.

335
00:11:22,777 --> 00:11:23,107
Well-

336
00:11:23,567 --> 00:11:24,167
Well, how would you

337
00:11:24,167 --> 00:11:24,428
think it

338
00:11:24,428 --> 00:11:24,573
looks?

339
00:11:24,573 --> 00:11:25,928
Well, yeah, I- I'm interested
to see what youse do.

340
00:11:25,938 --> 00:11:31,267
Well, I think with technology
that's available, there's no

341
00:11:31,287 --> 00:11:32,727
such thing as a quick estimate.

342
00:11:32,737 --> 00:11:36,367
A quick estimate now is more like
a detailed bill of quantities.

343
00:11:36,517 --> 00:11:36,887
Yep.

344
00:11:37,008 --> 00:11:38,728
Because of what's available-

345
00:11:38,798 --> 00:11:39,128
Yep

346
00:11:39,508 --> 00:11:45,867
… 
with software platforms, it's so easy to
create a full detailed bill of quantities.

347
00:11:45,907 --> 00:11:46,177
Yep.

348
00:11:46,407 --> 00:11:50,597
For example, we can see a specific
platform out there where you can

349
00:11:50,597 --> 00:11:53,468
punch some data into a system and
it gives you a 10-page estimate-

350
00:11:53,637 --> 00:11:53,967
Yep

351
00:11:54,087 --> 00:11:55,627
within, what, 20 minutes.

352
00:11:55,837 --> 00:11:58,908
So you, the, the one that you do, 'cause I
wanna talk about what, what you're doing.

353
00:11:58,917 --> 00:11:58,937
Yeah.

354
00:11:58,947 --> 00:12:03,318
'Cause you, you have a, a similar one
where you can put in a certain data,

355
00:12:03,327 --> 00:12:04,617
square meterages and stuff like that.

356
00:12:04,637 --> 00:12:05,308
Estimating online.

357
00:12:05,348 --> 00:12:06,847
Yes, which is estimating online.

358
00:12:06,847 --> 00:12:06,887
Which I've used too.

359
00:12:06,887 --> 00:12:06,897
Sorry,

360
00:12:06,897 --> 00:12:07,317
you now.

361
00:12:07,598 --> 00:12:10,497
And it, and it actually gives
you a huge amount of information.

362
00:12:11,317 --> 00:12:12,217
Well, you gotta- It

363
00:12:12,217 --> 00:12:14,317
gives you the right information

364
00:12:14,757 --> 00:12:16,937
… 
you gotta understand what
estimating is, and there's so many

365
00:12:16,938 --> 00:12:18,317
different ways to do estimating.

366
00:12:18,598 --> 00:12:22,617
Like, for example, there's a technique
where you can say, "What's the size of

367
00:12:22,617 --> 00:12:27,932
your laundry?" So if you have a five
square meter laundry, you don't have

368
00:12:28,192 --> 00:12:29,952
15 meters of cabinets in your laundry.

369
00:12:30,382 --> 00:12:35,362
So you can create preset buttons that
have a list of bill of quantities

370
00:12:35,362 --> 00:12:36,632
when you press that one button.

371
00:12:37,172 --> 00:12:39,552
Now, you could do that in
Microsoft Excel if you want to.

372
00:12:39,601 --> 00:12:45,911
Like for example, you can go, um, H1
equal… If, if H1 equals one, then this

373
00:12:45,962 --> 00:12:49,902
equals yes, and then that equals- This,
yeah … what goes into a spreadsheet.

374
00:12:49,902 --> 00:12:52,251
So you just got to be a little bit
of a nerd with- Yeah … Excel.

375
00:12:52,562 --> 00:12:56,482
And that's what was, you
know, probably prior to 2023.

376
00:12:58,171 --> 00:13:00,631
But there's so many different
ways you can skin a cat.

377
00:13:00,642 --> 00:13:00,662
Yeah.

378
00:13:00,691 --> 00:13:03,111
So I think, I think what I
want to go back to firstly-

379
00:13:03,122 --> 00:13:04,942
S- c- sorry, can I, I just want to
close out one more thing before.

380
00:13:04,951 --> 00:13:04,971
Yeah.

381
00:13:04,982 --> 00:13:09,701
'Cause you said, um, when I said I'm going
out to trade in that second costing- Yep

382
00:13:09,712 --> 00:13:12,612
you, you were saying that maybe not, not

383
00:13:12,691 --> 00:13:12,791
necessarily.

384
00:13:12,791 --> 00:13:15,872
Well, I believe, I mean, everyone's
got their own strategy with estimating.

385
00:13:15,912 --> 00:13:18,281
Everyone has their own process,
and I think that's what the

386
00:13:18,291 --> 00:13:19,631
best part about business is.

387
00:13:19,651 --> 00:13:22,841
Because there's no right
way to do estimating.

388
00:13:22,841 --> 00:13:24,731
There's no wa- no right
way to run a business.

389
00:13:24,861 --> 00:13:28,961
Hey, I'm a product who, like I said
at the start of this conversation, my

390
00:13:29,001 --> 00:13:31,942
girlfriend Passed me through school

391
00:13:32,132 --> 00:13:32,382
Yeah

392
00:13:32,742 --> 00:13:33,922
There's no, there's no right and wrong way

393
00:13:33,992 --> 00:13:36,182
And some people will just do one
estimation and it's the final

394
00:13:37,082 --> 00:13:37,502
Yeah.

395
00:13:37,932 --> 00:13:38,522
Well…

396
00:13:39,012 --> 00:13:42,121
That, that, but the thing is, like, we,
yeah, I've got three, you're saying four.

397
00:13:42,431 --> 00:13:43,991
Some people are like f- four.

398
00:13:43,992 --> 00:13:45,501
All right, so I'll give
you, I'll give you my four.

399
00:13:45,622 --> 00:13:46,321
Yeah, great, yeah.

400
00:13:46,332 --> 00:13:46,532
Yeah.

401
00:13:46,571 --> 00:13:47,072
Very keen.

402
00:13:47,091 --> 00:13:51,532
You've got the number one being
the quick rundown sort of estimate.

403
00:13:51,601 --> 00:13:53,101
Yeah, give me square meter rates.

404
00:13:53,192 --> 00:13:54,121
Feasibility, whatever

405
00:13:54,321 --> 00:13:56,331
it might be.

406
00:13:56,331 --> 00:13:56,381
Blah, blah, blah.

407
00:13:56,381 --> 00:13:56,481
That's the phone call conversation.

408
00:13:56,481 --> 00:13:56,491
Yeah.

409
00:13:56,491 --> 00:13:58,471
That's the, "Hey, I've got this, what
do you think?" "Ah, I think 1.2."

410
00:13:58,571 --> 00:13:59,151
Yeah, okay.

411
00:13:59,391 --> 00:14:02,021
But that's also based
off some reasonable data.

412
00:14:02,022 --> 00:14:03,671
So you don't just pluck
that number out of the air.

413
00:14:04,362 --> 00:14:09,872
Estimation number two, and I think
this is what's coming available in

414
00:14:09,872 --> 00:14:15,011
the industry at the moment, which is
that rapid tool estimating platform.

415
00:14:15,211 --> 00:14:15,401
Yeah.

416
00:14:15,411 --> 00:14:20,422
Now, whether that is through a software,
that, whether that's through, um,

417
00:14:20,511 --> 00:14:25,001
AI or however it is, that is still
producing a bill of quantities.

418
00:14:25,231 --> 00:14:28,932
Mm. Hey, Mattie, I've been talking to
a few people recently and they're like,

419
00:14:28,941 --> 00:14:32,671
"You know what? You've been building
with a Pro- Proclima for years. Like,

420
00:14:32,671 --> 00:14:33,911
how do we get to where you are?"

421
00:14:34,452 --> 00:14:37,551
So we all started at level zero
at one point, and we got there.

422
00:14:37,551 --> 00:14:40,181
But one of the things that Proclima
have on their website is they have

423
00:14:40,181 --> 00:14:44,791
a library of so many details, from
wall to roof to subfloor to window

424
00:14:44,792 --> 00:14:48,491
assemblies, for multiple different
windows, on how to use their product

425
00:14:48,501 --> 00:14:52,311
and install it correctly, and is one
of the, the best resources that you can

426
00:14:52,311 --> 00:14:54,431
find online to learn how to do this.

427
00:14:54,431 --> 00:14:56,731
And if you're an architect and you're
not sure how to draw something, they've

428
00:14:56,731 --> 00:14:57,811
probably got the answer already.

429
00:14:57,841 --> 00:14:59,111
And I think about, you know, 2018,

430
00:15:01,332 --> 00:15:04,862
2019, when we f- we, we first started
getting into this, we had to trawl

431
00:15:04,862 --> 00:15:06,301
through all kinds of different documents.

432
00:15:06,301 --> 00:15:06,351
We had

433
00:15:06,351 --> 00:15:06,801
to make it up.

434
00:15:06,811 --> 00:15:08,181
We, we, we had to make it up.

435
00:15:08,951 --> 00:15:09,702
It's all there for

436
00:15:09,702 --> 00:15:09,841
you.

437
00:15:09,841 --> 00:15:10,951
Yeah, the answers are free now.

438
00:15:10,981 --> 00:15:15,051
And social media's great, there's
so many awesome videos and content

439
00:15:15,051 --> 00:15:17,781
out there, but the ultimate source
of truth is the Proclima website.

440
00:15:17,792 --> 00:15:19,791
They have every single
detail that you can imagine.

441
00:15:19,811 --> 00:15:20,391
And you know what?

442
00:15:20,652 --> 00:15:23,581
If they don't have it, you can email
them and they'll help you solve it.

443
00:15:23,631 --> 00:15:23,891
Damn

444
00:15:23,891 --> 00:15:24,051
right.

445
00:15:24,051 --> 00:15:27,731
So use Proclima, proclima.com.au
if you need to reach out to them

446
00:15:31,054 --> 00:15:33,034
So with that there, is
that for the builder?

447
00:15:33,064 --> 00:15:33,843
Is it for the client?

448
00:15:33,843 --> 00:15:34,744
Is it for the architect?

449
00:15:34,744 --> 00:15:36,144
Like, who should be doing that stage?

450
00:15:36,144 --> 00:15:36,754
That's, that's a builder.

451
00:15:36,954 --> 00:15:37,374
Yeah, okay.

452
00:15:37,384 --> 00:15:37,404
Yeah.

453
00:15:37,603 --> 00:15:37,884
Because

454
00:15:37,894 --> 00:15:38,334
there's no- Hang on.

455
00:15:38,343 --> 00:15:41,193
If you wanna go deeper, that
is technically for anyone.

456
00:15:41,574 --> 00:15:43,863
Yeah, no, that's why I asked the
question because, like- It's anyone

457
00:15:43,884 --> 00:15:45,973
this, c- who should be
doing the estimations?

458
00:15:45,973 --> 00:15:46,673
This is the other part.

459
00:15:46,673 --> 00:15:48,624
But, but, but I think you're
gonna agree with this comment.

460
00:15:49,003 --> 00:15:51,774
Let's just say you're
putting it into an AI tool.

461
00:15:52,163 --> 00:15:55,273
It still requires someone to sense
check the data that's coming out.

462
00:15:55,273 --> 00:15:57,084
Oh, you don't wanna go down the AI

463
00:15:57,084 --> 00:15:57,203
path.

464
00:15:57,443 --> 00:15:58,593
But, uh, all I'm saying is

465
00:16:01,144 --> 00:16:01,453
let's hypothetically if
you did, like I don't…

466
00:16:01,454 --> 00:16:04,834
I think it's dangerous for someone
without the knowledge that we

467
00:16:04,844 --> 00:16:08,324
have as builders to just accept
the numbers that are coming out.

468
00:16:08,754 --> 00:16:10,654
And this is why I asked the
question originally, h- like,

469
00:16:10,874 --> 00:16:11,844
what knowledge do you have?

470
00:16:11,844 --> 00:16:14,704
And it's the, the person putting in
the information is super important.

471
00:16:14,704 --> 00:16:17,893
Because if I go, if I put it
in who I s- my job and my r- my

472
00:16:17,894 --> 00:16:19,403
business right now is estimator.

473
00:16:19,723 --> 00:16:22,863
If I go give it to Kayla, who's
my contract admin, we're gonna

474
00:16:22,863 --> 00:16:23,823
get very different numbers.

475
00:16:24,013 --> 00:16:28,603
Mm. Well, I could have th-
well, I have had three different

476
00:16:28,603 --> 00:16:31,183
estimators in my company, and you
will get three different prices.

477
00:16:31,593 --> 00:16:31,813
Yeah.

478
00:16:31,813 --> 00:16:32,173
Okay.

479
00:16:32,173 --> 00:16:32,463
All

480
00:16:32,463 --> 00:16:35,084
right, so go back to topic number
two, so estimate number two.

481
00:16:35,143 --> 00:16:38,813
That's, that's a bill of
quantities based on some variables.

482
00:16:38,814 --> 00:16:42,763
For example, like that, pressing that
button of what size is your laundry, and

483
00:16:42,763 --> 00:16:43,963
then that produces a bill of quantities.

484
00:16:44,064 --> 00:16:49,023
And then I believe estimate number three
is where I think external estimators

485
00:16:49,024 --> 00:16:50,343
come into play for this situation.

486
00:16:50,384 --> 00:16:50,604
Yeah.

487
00:16:50,923 --> 00:16:56,073
They are preparing a detailed bill
of quantities where you see the

488
00:16:56,073 --> 00:16:59,243
linear meters of the skirting, you
see the cubic meters of the slab.

489
00:16:59,723 --> 00:17:03,463
You know, you see how many taps, how many
ovens, all that sort of stuff, and then

490
00:17:03,463 --> 00:17:08,044
the builder needs to do their thorough
process of checking those quantities.

491
00:17:08,423 --> 00:17:11,873
You're not going to the trades and
suppliers, I don't believe, at this point

492
00:17:11,874 --> 00:17:15,153
of step number three, because you wanna
confirm that they can build that price.

493
00:17:15,333 --> 00:17:19,793
They can build… Sorry, the homeowner
can pay that 1.1 or, you know, 2.6.

494
00:17:19,793 --> 00:17:22,414
Shouldn't that have been the stage
before, though, with that, that…

495
00:17:22,483 --> 00:17:26,064
So just so I got this right, your
stage two would be what I would

496
00:17:26,064 --> 00:17:27,313
use as estimating online right now?

497
00:17:27,353 --> 00:17:27,613
Yep.

498
00:17:27,703 --> 00:17:28,123
Okay.

499
00:17:28,153 --> 00:17:29,383
100%. Shouldn't that be at that point?

500
00:17:30,382 --> 00:17:34,782
Yes, like to me, I use your estimating
online is, client comes to me, go on

501
00:17:34,782 --> 00:17:39,172
to an architect, we have a design,
and I go, "Their budget's 1.2."

502
00:17:39,492 --> 00:17:40,162
I kind of don't care.

503
00:17:40,162 --> 00:17:43,212
I don't need to ask the client anymore
what their budget is, because I can

504
00:17:43,212 --> 00:17:47,632
put it into your tool and I go, "Hey,
this, this plan that has been designed

505
00:17:47,632 --> 00:17:49,982
for you come in between 1.5 and 1.75.

506
00:17:49,982 --> 00:17:50,742
Can you afford it?

507
00:17:50,742 --> 00:17:51,081
Yes.

508
00:17:51,091 --> 00:17:56,121
No." It's, to me, it's as basic and simple
as that, because if you can't afford that

509
00:17:56,122 --> 00:17:58,189
range, and I'll always say, "Go the home-"

510
00:17:58,189 --> 00:17:58,981
That's conversation number one.

511
00:17:59,441 --> 00:17:59,781
Yeah.

512
00:17:59,782 --> 00:18:02,482
So I, I've just written this down
and, and I think, I think what you're

513
00:18:02,482 --> 00:18:06,952
saying is almost rings true to how
we do it except for this step three.

514
00:18:06,952 --> 00:18:07,272
But I-

515
00:18:07,281 --> 00:18:07,511
There's

516
00:18:07,512 --> 00:18:07,522
a

517
00:18:07,771 --> 00:18:09,491
kicker on step three
that I haven't explained.

518
00:18:09,562 --> 00:18:09,792
Yeah.

519
00:18:09,812 --> 00:18:12,091
Yeah, that's why I was- So just, just,
just before we get that summary, so

520
00:18:12,161 --> 00:18:13,882
estimating one is like a phone call.

521
00:18:13,882 --> 00:18:14,792
It's kind of a gut feel.

522
00:18:14,792 --> 00:18:14,952
Yeah.

523
00:18:14,952 --> 00:18:15,096
Yeah, yeah.

524
00:18:15,096 --> 00:18:16,232
That, that- You're referencing a price.

525
00:18:16,232 --> 00:18:16,261
That-

526
00:18:16,261 --> 00:18:17,572
Ma- meter squared … that is an estimate.

527
00:18:17,572 --> 00:18:17,741
Yeah.

528
00:18:17,741 --> 00:18:18,292
That's, yeah.

529
00:18:18,292 --> 00:18:21,841
So I, I, for example, I had a phone
call yesterday saying 160 square

530
00:18:21,841 --> 00:18:23,061
meters worth of livable space.

531
00:18:23,062 --> 00:18:23,841
They've got a budget.

532
00:18:24,042 --> 00:18:25,611
He's like, "I really wanna
spend under a million."

533
00:18:25,612 --> 00:18:25,641
Oh, no.

534
00:18:25,652 --> 00:18:26,952
I'm like, "Well, it's 1.1."

535
00:18:26,952 --> 00:18:27,182
Yeah.

536
00:18:27,222 --> 00:18:29,082
I'm telling you now, without
even looking at it, it's 1.1.

537
00:18:29,082 --> 00:18:29,281
Yep.

538
00:18:29,562 --> 00:18:33,621
And I know this because I've been
doing this for the past 20 years.

539
00:18:33,632 --> 00:18:35,001
You're using reference projects.

540
00:18:35,132 --> 00:18:35,262
Yeah.

541
00:18:35,262 --> 00:18:37,561
So, so at that point I'm
using, if you want that, this

542
00:18:37,562 --> 00:18:38,711
is the closest thing we have.

543
00:18:38,721 --> 00:18:38,741
Yeah.

544
00:18:38,791 --> 00:18:42,962
Estimating two, rapid s- software,
whatever you wanna do in that one.

545
00:18:42,962 --> 00:18:43,012
Correct.

546
00:18:43,022 --> 00:18:45,342
E- estimate three is more the
detailed bill of quantity.

547
00:18:45,352 --> 00:18:45,402
Correct.

548
00:18:45,412 --> 00:18:46,142
So I'll let you keep going.

549
00:18:46,591 --> 00:18:51,791
So I don't believe we should
be going to our trades and

550
00:18:51,791 --> 00:18:53,331
suppliers at step number three.

551
00:18:54,852 --> 00:18:59,412
Now, I think this is a big problem that's
been happening for four, five years.

552
00:18:59,441 --> 00:18:59,691
Yeah.

553
00:18:59,922 --> 00:19:07,212
Step number three, where we're not
giving a client a detailed price, but

554
00:19:07,212 --> 00:19:08,671
we're asking all our trades to quote it.

555
00:19:09,021 --> 00:19:09,391
Mm-hmm.

556
00:19:09,532 --> 00:19:09,812
Okay?

557
00:19:10,172 --> 00:19:14,851
So put yourself in your shoe, in, in,
in a position if you're the concreter

558
00:19:17,776 --> 00:19:21,246
I haven't got a verified budget from
a client, but can you give me a quote?

559
00:19:21,856 --> 00:19:23,886
But I've given you a
concept plan of engineering

560
00:19:26,668 --> 00:19:27,098
Okay.

561
00:19:27,477 --> 00:19:29,138
Now let's go back another step.

562
00:19:29,828 --> 00:19:32,967
Over the past three, four months,
this concrete has quoted six or seven

563
00:19:32,967 --> 00:19:38,378
jobs that never have gone ahead What
happens if the concreter received

564
00:19:38,378 --> 00:19:44,257
an email saying, "Please provide a
quote," but this is a verified budget

565
00:19:44,308 --> 00:19:45,957
and it's a project ready to go?

566
00:19:47,018 --> 00:19:48,838
That's what I believe step number four is.

567
00:19:48,907 --> 00:19:52,687
Okay, so, so there's more motivation
for… You're not, you're not…

568
00:19:52,737 --> 00:19:53,697
Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

569
00:19:53,748 --> 00:19:55,757
We want the concreter to quote a real job.

570
00:19:55,768 --> 00:19:55,788
Yeah.

571
00:19:55,858 --> 00:19:58,128
We don't want the concreter
just to quote it because we're

572
00:19:58,128 --> 00:19:59,187
trying to get to a budget.

573
00:19:59,657 --> 00:19:59,977
Yes.

574
00:20:00,117 --> 00:20:02,117
I, so I, I, yeah, I'm not
trying to hit a budget.

575
00:20:02,127 --> 00:20:02,147
Yeah.

576
00:20:02,157 --> 00:20:05,058
What, for me, is I'm going, "Hey,
we've got enough information here.

577
00:20:05,078 --> 00:20:08,447
Can you give me…" I love what
you call, like, ironically, this

578
00:20:08,447 --> 00:20:09,898
is still es- we call estimating.

579
00:20:10,627 --> 00:20:13,248
This is an estimation, so I'll be
like- Yeah … "Hey, here's everything

580
00:20:13,248 --> 00:20:16,347
we have. It's enough information
to get pretty accurate," 'cause my

581
00:20:16,348 --> 00:20:18,917
stage four is like, can you just
refine it now off the final set?

582
00:20:18,918 --> 00:20:19,557
That's correct.

583
00:20:19,567 --> 00:20:20,808
Could I, I mean- So you've
already done the bu- you've

584
00:20:20,817 --> 00:20:21,497
done the legwork That's correct.

585
00:20:21,537 --> 00:20:22,207
Is, your price should

586
00:20:22,207 --> 00:20:22,227
be

587
00:20:22,467 --> 00:20:22,837
somewhere.

588
00:20:22,887 --> 00:20:24,907
So, you know, so when I was
doing estimating in, in the

589
00:20:24,937 --> 00:20:27,827
early stages, we would call that
a pre-construction agreement.

590
00:20:28,137 --> 00:20:28,377
Yeah.

591
00:20:29,137 --> 00:20:29,767
That, that's actually-

592
00:20:29,767 --> 00:20:32,348
'
Cause, 'cause I was, I was just
about to wrap a little bit more

593
00:20:32,348 --> 00:20:34,807
context around these stages.

594
00:20:34,817 --> 00:20:35,007
Yep.

595
00:20:35,297 --> 00:20:40,228
At stage one, estimating one, like,
we haven't been signed up in ACI.

596
00:20:40,237 --> 00:20:41,208
It's really, there's a phone call.

597
00:20:41,208 --> 00:20:41,487
Yeah, it's just a

598
00:20:41,487 --> 00:20:42,627
pho- it's conversation.

599
00:20:42,678 --> 00:20:46,027
Est- estimating two, this rapid
tool thing, there's engagement.

600
00:20:46,138 --> 00:20:46,638
That's correct.

601
00:20:46,668 --> 00:20:47,687
Yep, so there's engagement with me.

602
00:20:47,687 --> 00:20:47,947
I'll be

603
00:20:47,947 --> 00:20:48,427
close.

604
00:20:48,447 --> 00:20:48,937
Yeah.

605
00:20:48,937 --> 00:20:49,017
Yeah.

606
00:20:49,017 --> 00:20:49,737
Or there's engagement with the client.

607
00:20:49,737 --> 00:20:50,708
I need some real data, yeah.

608
00:20:50,718 --> 00:20:53,047
Some, well, but there's also
money that's being exchanged

609
00:20:53,047 --> 00:20:54,377
between me and the client as well.

610
00:20:54,388 --> 00:20:57,707
Uh, I don't believe that should
happen because I think that

611
00:20:58,707 --> 00:20:59,477
there's- Oh, don't say, don't
say, don't say that too loudly

612
00:20:59,487 --> 00:20:59,607
because there's some managers.

613
00:20:59,607 --> 00:21:01,827
No, no, no, I will, I'll say
it at step number three 'cause

614
00:21:01,827 --> 00:21:02,179
that's step number three.

615
00:21:02,179 --> 00:21:02,677
No, so, so,

616
00:21:02,677 --> 00:21:05,918
so step number two, I definitely
should be charging for your estimating

617
00:21:05,918 --> 00:21:06,098
online.

618
00:21:06,098 --> 00:21:08,688
Yeah, but this is what my buzz is.

619
00:21:09,357 --> 00:21:14,277
There are tools out there that can do
step number two really, really quick.

620
00:21:14,357 --> 00:21:14,667
Yep.

621
00:21:14,787 --> 00:21:15,528
I agree with you.

622
00:21:15,577 --> 00:21:17,927
Yeah, I know, but, like, I've
still gotta pay for your program.

623
00:21:17,937 --> 00:21:19,757
I've still got an hour
meeting with the client.

624
00:21:19,797 --> 00:21:21,327
I'm still reviewing the plans.

625
00:21:21,528 --> 00:21:23,768
There's still four or
five hours of my time.

626
00:21:23,818 --> 00:21:26,457
Just to put a bit of more context
around it, step number two, I'm

627
00:21:26,638 --> 00:21:30,707
charging- If you're spending four or five
hours on a little quick, quick price,

628
00:21:30,767 --> 00:21:32,327
you, you're, you're using the wrong tool.

629
00:21:32,767 --> 00:21:35,307
But they're pretty refined by…
Okay, it's also hard because the

630
00:21:35,307 --> 00:21:37,538
projects I'm getting are still
pretty refined by that point.

631
00:21:37,697 --> 00:21:42,017
Then I'm not getting a, a
hand-drawn set of plans.

632
00:21:42,017 --> 00:21:44,828
Yeah, but also let's, let's
just… I'd like, I've always

633
00:21:44,828 --> 00:21:46,287
wanted to raise this conversation.

634
00:21:46,377 --> 00:21:50,527
When we're talking about estimating,
we're not always talking about the

635
00:21:50,527 --> 00:21:52,458
most high-level detailed house.

636
00:21:53,307 --> 00:21:55,647
And- It's a, it's a broad
construction conversation.

637
00:21:55,848 --> 00:21:58,857
And, and, and, well, there's also, there's
new builds, there's, like, the volume

638
00:21:58,857 --> 00:22:01,258
spec, there's the, the duplex townhouses.

639
00:22:01,258 --> 00:22:01,445
That's correct.

640
00:22:01,445 --> 00:22:03,598
There's als- there's also then
the renovations, which are a whole

641
00:22:03,607 --> 00:22:04,005
different ballgame themselves.

642
00:22:04,005 --> 00:22:04,213
So I

643
00:22:04,213 --> 00:22:07,027
understand, I understand your game- Yeah,
yeah … because your plans are different.

644
00:22:07,148 --> 00:22:07,558
Yeah, yeah.

645
00:22:07,727 --> 00:22:10,568
The way you operate versus the way
someone else operates builds and all that

646
00:22:10,568 --> 00:22:11,378
stuff, they're all different process.

647
00:22:11,408 --> 00:22:11,588
Yeah.

648
00:22:11,818 --> 00:22:13,067
That's why there's no one unit plan.

649
00:22:13,077 --> 00:22:16,068
And this is what I'm starting to learn
because, like, you have a spec home.

650
00:22:16,068 --> 00:22:18,687
It's like they just need the
allowance for the j- for the

651
00:22:18,687 --> 00:22:20,507
joinery, and you have this allowance.

652
00:22:20,568 --> 00:22:21,558
Pick, build within that.

653
00:22:21,648 --> 00:22:23,847
Pick, your selections-
Yeah … have to be within that.

654
00:22:23,898 --> 00:22:27,287
Yep, and with, like, a spec home,
there's project builders out there

655
00:22:27,288 --> 00:22:28,407
who are building, you know- Yeah

656
00:22:28,407 --> 00:22:29,358
sort of spec homes.

657
00:22:29,407 --> 00:22:29,687
Yeah.

658
00:22:30,107 --> 00:22:35,316
And, and their step number two
estimate is using data and, and preset

659
00:22:35,316 --> 00:22:40,546
buttons and preset calculations to
get to what is a bill of quantities.

660
00:22:40,546 --> 00:22:41,456
It's not perfect.

661
00:22:41,726 --> 00:22:41,916
No.

662
00:22:41,996 --> 00:22:44,965
But it's giving me a better visual
process, and that's what I'm trying

663
00:22:44,965 --> 00:22:50,038
to say is just like there's tools out
there that can do that really quick.

664
00:22:50,318 --> 00:22:53,488
However, if you go to your style
of houses, you know, the, the

665
00:22:53,548 --> 00:22:58,638
Carlin special, um, you can't
just do a quick slap together

666
00:22:58,638 --> 00:22:59,878
estimate, 'cause that doesn't work.

667
00:23:00,008 --> 00:23:02,708
And the reason I say that is that, 'cause
why if we don't charge it, what's the

668
00:23:02,708 --> 00:23:04,018
client going, "Here's a new design." Okay.

669
00:23:04,027 --> 00:23:04,698
"Here's a new design." Yeah.

670
00:23:05,038 --> 00:23:05,438
"Here's a new design."

671
00:23:05,438 --> 00:23:06,858
That's- And it's like,
well, when do I stop?

672
00:23:06,878 --> 00:23:10,878
That's correct, and that's where you got
to understand what game you're sitting in.

673
00:23:11,058 --> 00:23:12,877
Mm. Step number two, you might charge.

674
00:23:13,237 --> 00:23:13,547
Yep.

675
00:23:13,618 --> 00:23:16,438
But step number two, another
builder's like, "I don't need to."

676
00:23:16,667 --> 00:23:17,918
They will do that step number three.

677
00:23:17,948 --> 00:23:20,417
We got some builders out there who's
not even charging at step number three.

678
00:23:20,657 --> 00:23:20,687
Man.

679
00:23:20,777 --> 00:23:22,477
I agree with charging for estimates.

680
00:23:22,687 --> 00:23:22,987
Yep.

681
00:23:23,628 --> 00:23:24,967
It's so much time.

682
00:23:25,288 --> 00:23:25,438
Oh,

683
00:23:25,607 --> 00:23:25,647
yeah.

684
00:23:25,677 --> 00:23:28,918
And, and, and we'll get to that on how
estimation works in a second, because-

685
00:23:29,157 --> 00:23:32,638
… I've learned, having a few conversations
with you recently, and trying to wrap my

686
00:23:32,638 --> 00:23:36,817
head around how it actually works, because
it's, um, well, they alway- I used to

687
00:23:36,817 --> 00:23:39,007
get told was it's a, it's a, it's an art.

688
00:23:39,587 --> 00:23:42,787
It's a, it's a, it's a f- it's
a, it is a big art estimating.

689
00:23:42,797 --> 00:23:43,517
Strategies.

690
00:23:44,157 --> 00:23:49,527
Yeah, but you, you're looking at so many
different… You, you have to forecast it,

691
00:23:49,527 --> 00:23:52,937
and the issue that we have specifically
in Victoria is you get it wrong, or the

692
00:23:52,968 --> 00:23:55,368
contractors, you miss out on that money.

693
00:23:55,688 --> 00:23:55,938
Yep.

694
00:23:56,008 --> 00:23:58,628
Like, you, it's not like I can go
to the client and 'cause I missed

695
00:23:58,637 --> 00:23:59,767
something and go, "Hey, I missed that."

696
00:23:59,837 --> 00:24:00,918
We, you just don't.

697
00:24:01,137 --> 00:24:03,897
That's not how this works, and
that's why these e- these estimates

698
00:24:03,898 --> 00:24:05,477
have to be fucking dialled in.

699
00:24:05,578 --> 00:24:06,448
Yep, correct.

700
00:24:06,707 --> 00:24:10,278
So let's, let's close out e- estimate
three, so then we can go to estimate four.

701
00:24:10,298 --> 00:24:12,997
So, so we've got detailed bill
of quantities, but, but in, but

702
00:24:12,997 --> 00:24:15,277
in your opinion, we're not gonna
trade at this point in time.

703
00:24:16,148 --> 00:24:16,678
Correct.

704
00:24:16,857 --> 00:24:18,927
Uh- Because, I mean, what we've built-

705
00:24:19,008 --> 00:24:19,537
Yeah … I

706
00:24:19,537 --> 00:24:22,947
don't, I don't wanna specifically,
like, brag on estimating online

707
00:24:22,947 --> 00:24:23,185
this, that, and the third.

708
00:24:23,185 --> 00:24:23,807
No, I think you can.

709
00:24:23,807 --> 00:24:26,287
No, no, you- No, I don't … that's
the, that's- That's just not my style.

710
00:24:26,377 --> 00:24:26,537
Yeah.

711
00:24:26,538 --> 00:24:30,697
What I believe is a builder should have
tools so they can make good decisions.

712
00:24:30,747 --> 00:24:31,127
Yep.

713
00:24:31,407 --> 00:24:31,797
Okay?

714
00:24:31,857 --> 00:24:36,277
So you have a detailed bill of
quantities that tells you the

715
00:24:36,277 --> 00:24:38,757
excavation cubic meters of the footing.

716
00:24:38,757 --> 00:24:38,837
Yeah.

717
00:24:38,837 --> 00:24:42,617
The, the, the concrete that's gotta
go in the footing, the reinforcement,

718
00:24:42,617 --> 00:24:44,298
the labor, the concrete pump, right?

719
00:24:44,907 --> 00:24:49,397
You should be able to reference
back on your history, and referring

720
00:24:49,398 --> 00:24:54,337
to the site, to understand that,
hey, I can't put a standard rate

721
00:24:54,387 --> 00:24:56,357
to pour footings on this job.

722
00:24:56,367 --> 00:24:56,387
Yeah.

723
00:24:56,798 --> 00:25:00,097
So I have to increase my price, because
that's what my concrete is gonna do.

724
00:25:00,477 --> 00:25:00,707
Yeah.

725
00:25:00,768 --> 00:25:05,277
It's like when you go to pour a job
in Richmond or Hawthorne, but the

726
00:25:05,287 --> 00:25:06,777
concreter lives down in Mornington.

727
00:25:07,697 --> 00:25:09,817
Or you got a council that won't let
you do certain things in a certain way.

728
00:25:09,817 --> 00:25:10,497
That's correct.

729
00:25:10,507 --> 00:25:12,917
So you gotta increase your rates.

730
00:25:12,927 --> 00:25:13,307
Yeah.

731
00:25:13,497 --> 00:25:17,837
And that's what I'm trying to say with
step number three is, is like, assess

732
00:25:17,837 --> 00:25:22,987
the site, assess the project, assess
the client, assess the documentation.

733
00:25:23,307 --> 00:25:26,607
But that, isn't that on, for me, I'll
kick back here, 'cause if I send this

734
00:25:26,607 --> 00:25:30,797
to, say, for example, my roofer, he
can start to look at the box gutters.

735
00:25:30,828 --> 00:25:32,108
He can go, "Hey, that's not gonna work."

736
00:25:32,108 --> 00:25:34,907
You, you get the flat, you're getting
their expertise on the project too by

737
00:25:34,908 --> 00:25:38,877
looking at it, rather than, uh, you,
you're looking at it from… 'Cause

738
00:25:38,877 --> 00:25:42,207
they'll look at it at a very blinkers
on, "I'm only looking at my roofing."

739
00:25:42,830 --> 00:25:45,080
Okay, so then what's a builder?

740
00:25:45,659 --> 00:25:48,689
We're, we're, we're potentially the,
the puppet that pulls all the strings.

741
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,079
We're the, we're the
people that manage it.

742
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:51,110
But

743
00:25:51,129 --> 00:25:54,489
isn't the homeowner investing in
the builder because they know-

744
00:25:54,850 --> 00:25:56,279
Yeah … that the builder can deliver?

745
00:25:56,460 --> 00:25:59,689
Yeah, and but up, but for me it's the, um,
I like to be the dumbest guy at the table.

746
00:25:59,709 --> 00:26:02,949
I will put people around me who are
better at what they know, so I… But

747
00:26:02,959 --> 00:26:04,800
I know enough to ask very good con- I

748
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:04,929
can,

749
00:26:04,929 --> 00:26:04,949
I can-

750
00:26:04,949 --> 00:26:06,100
Okay, so- I can, I can-

751
00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:06,769
I get what you're saying.

752
00:26:06,779 --> 00:26:09,549
I, I, I- Yeah, but who am I… Like, when
I buy a house from you, sorry, Hamish.

753
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:09,949
Yeah, no it's all right.

754
00:26:09,949 --> 00:26:13,429
When I buy a house for you, why don't
I have a list of all who your trades

755
00:26:13,429 --> 00:26:15,030
are so I know who I'm investing in?

756
00:26:15,030 --> 00:26:18,610
If you want 1.6, $1.9 million
on me, I'm investing in you.

757
00:26:18,639 --> 00:26:19,719
I'm not investing in-

758
00:26:20,129 --> 00:26:23,260
Because we have knowledge, and the
thing is if I was to give you my list

759
00:26:23,260 --> 00:26:25,699
of trades, you can just go to Owner
Builder and go to all my trades.

760
00:26:25,699 --> 00:26:29,379
Oh, look, if, if your trades are
silly to allow that to happen.

761
00:26:29,639 --> 00:26:30,230
Yeah, I don't, I don't think-

762
00:26:30,249 --> 00:26:31,829
No, no, no, we don't, but like it's also-
I don't, I don't think you handle this

763
00:26:31,829 --> 00:26:36,719
well … there's also, there's also n-
that we know, and I, what I say to sort

764
00:26:36,719 --> 00:26:39,929
of, this is sort of external to this
conversation, so I don't refer, I don't…

765
00:26:40,149 --> 00:26:43,289
Like, when I have a friend go, "I need
a plumber," I might also love my plumber

766
00:26:43,289 --> 00:26:47,869
Cam, I'm not gonna give him the number
to my friend because at the end of the

767
00:26:47,870 --> 00:26:52,250
day, I work with Cam well, I know how Cam
functions, I know how his team function,

768
00:26:52,590 --> 00:26:54,279
he knows how- So who's the,
let's go back to this one then.

769
00:26:54,279 --> 00:26:55,449
Who's the client investing in?

770
00:26:55,739 --> 00:26:57,344
They're investing in- The builder … the

771
00:26:57,344 --> 00:26:57,449
builder.

772
00:26:57,449 --> 00:26:59,549
So the builder should
understand the process, right?

773
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,100
And they're the best person who

774
00:27:01,620 --> 00:27:01,710
knows about it.

775
00:27:01,710 --> 00:27:03,300
Do, and, and this, I, I think this is
a really good conversation- It's a good

776
00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:05,469
question … by the way, 'cause I think
it's, I think it, everyone's getting

777
00:27:05,469 --> 00:27:07,699
challenged, and I actually think there's
things that are rolling around in my

778
00:27:07,709 --> 00:27:11,199
brain right now with how we do things
that may change after this conversation.

779
00:27:11,199 --> 00:27:12,309
So I'm really enjoying this.

780
00:27:12,339 --> 00:27:13,199
Which is, which is good.

781
00:27:13,209 --> 00:27:17,250
But I, I think that at step three, and
again, this is absolutely my opinion.

782
00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:17,609
Yeah,

783
00:27:17,609 --> 00:27:17,800
yeah.

784
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,680
Whether or not we go out to trades
to quote or whether or not we just

785
00:27:22,699 --> 00:27:25,669
get on the phone with them and
have a conversation and say, "Hey"-

786
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:27,459
I think a conversation is good

787
00:27:27,469 --> 00:27:30,310
this is where, like roof plumbing
for example, "Hey, you know, based

788
00:27:30,310 --> 00:27:33,449
off our last four projects together,
your square meter rate is X."

789
00:27:33,479 --> 00:27:33,709
Yep.

790
00:27:33,870 --> 00:27:39,139
You know, I'm gonna lead in with a
provisional sum of $40,000 to reroof this.

791
00:27:39,149 --> 00:27:39,179
Good.

792
00:27:39,219 --> 00:27:39,249
Yep.

793
00:27:39,249 --> 00:27:40,350
Does that feel right for you?

794
00:27:40,820 --> 00:27:42,049
That's cor- That is 100% correct.

795
00:27:42,049 --> 00:27:42,209
Yeah.

796
00:27:42,229 --> 00:27:47,236
'Cause what you're actually doing
is you're diving into what they feel

797
00:27:47,236 --> 00:27:48,846
the complexity of the project is.

798
00:27:48,886 --> 00:27:49,176
Yeah.

799
00:27:49,866 --> 00:27:52,916
You know, you're not asking them to
commit to a price because we wanna go

800
00:27:52,916 --> 00:27:57,156
back to the client and say, "Hey, I've
done some firm numbers. I've done some

801
00:27:57,156 --> 00:28:01,856
research. We're sitting at 1.7." And
that's what I believe would be like

802
00:28:01,856 --> 00:28:03,706
a pre-construction cost agreement.

803
00:28:03,916 --> 00:28:04,216
Yeah.

804
00:28:04,336 --> 00:28:05,995
Should that number be a fixed number?

805
00:28:05,996 --> 00:28:08,915
Because, like, the s- button,
range, uh, estimate two is a range.

806
00:28:08,996 --> 00:28:10,525
It's a, it's a fixed number.

807
00:28:10,535 --> 00:28:10,555
Yeah.

808
00:28:10,566 --> 00:28:12,965
Like, I would be saying to you,
"Matt, if you want me to build your

809
00:28:12,976 --> 00:28:15,406
property, you know, we're going 1.257."

810
00:28:15,406 --> 00:28:15,726
Yeah.

811
00:28:15,816 --> 00:28:16,586
Then I'm gonna say, "But-

812
00:28:17,226 --> 00:28:17,526
Yeah

813
00:28:17,686 --> 00:28:22,605
… 
what I'm gonna do in the next part
is is I want four to six weeks."

814
00:28:22,655 --> 00:28:22,985
Yeah.

815
00:28:23,465 --> 00:28:23,615
Is

816
00:28:24,625 --> 00:28:24,935
this step four?

817
00:28:24,935 --> 00:28:24,945
Six.

818
00:28:24,945 --> 00:28:24,995
This is step number four.

819
00:28:24,995 --> 00:28:25,516
No, you need six.

820
00:28:25,846 --> 00:28:26,545
Yeah, yeah.

821
00:28:26,925 --> 00:28:27,215
Okay?

822
00:28:27,215 --> 00:28:27,455
Yeah.

823
00:28:27,495 --> 00:28:27,735
Four to

824
00:28:27,736 --> 00:28:28,096
six, yep.

825
00:28:28,096 --> 00:28:29,465
Six to eight, doesn't
matter where you come from.

826
00:28:29,495 --> 00:28:29,675
Yeah, yeah.

827
00:28:29,675 --> 00:28:30,546
Depends on what style of building.

828
00:28:30,546 --> 00:28:30,685
Yeah.

829
00:28:31,115 --> 00:28:35,906
Because I wanna go to the concreter,
I wanna go to the roofer, and I wanna

830
00:28:35,916 --> 00:28:41,955
get a quotation, and if that budget
of $78,000 for my roof is not correct,

831
00:28:43,236 --> 00:28:44,425
it's either gonna go up or down.

832
00:28:44,675 --> 00:28:44,855
Yeah.

833
00:28:45,166 --> 00:28:48,005
But if it goes down, Mr. Client,
that works in your favor because the

834
00:28:48,006 --> 00:28:49,435
final construction price comes down.

835
00:28:49,965 --> 00:28:53,615
But what I believe the best part
about this process is, that I'm trying

836
00:28:53,616 --> 00:28:56,056
to educate, I mean, my community.

837
00:28:56,186 --> 00:28:56,456
Yeah.

838
00:28:56,456 --> 00:28:57,995
Yeah.

839
00:28:57,995 --> 00:29:01,025
Trades always get asked
to request for quote.

840
00:29:01,845 --> 00:29:06,946
Now, after rejection, after rejection,
after rejection, after rejection- Mm

841
00:29:07,256 --> 00:29:08,976
do you continue to quote properly?

842
00:29:09,165 --> 00:29:09,936
No, I agree.

843
00:29:10,195 --> 00:29:10,545
Yeah.

844
00:29:10,605 --> 00:29:11,285
I actually agree with

845
00:29:11,285 --> 00:29:11,305
you.

846
00:29:11,305 --> 00:29:13,575
And this has been something that's come
to, like I've been thinking, you know-

847
00:29:13,775 --> 00:29:16,085
I'm finding it harder to get numbers
out of trades more than ever.

848
00:29:16,095 --> 00:29:17,585
And these, they get the job on every one

849
00:29:17,585 --> 00:29:17,646
of them.

850
00:29:17,646 --> 00:29:21,046
What I think the trades are actually
doing is, is they're sick of quoting

851
00:29:21,046 --> 00:29:23,865
for builders and not winning, because
obviously everything's expensive.

852
00:29:23,936 --> 00:29:24,296
Yeah.

853
00:29:24,296 --> 00:29:25,146
Yeah.

854
00:29:25,146 --> 00:29:29,095
They go offshore, they get quantities
done, they come back with a price,

855
00:29:29,116 --> 00:29:31,175
and then they put a luxury tax on it.

856
00:29:31,515 --> 00:29:31,595
Mm.

857
00:29:33,454 --> 00:29:37,204
Because we keep going over and over and
over again because the builder doesn't

858
00:29:37,204 --> 00:29:40,494
wanna do the numbers, homeowner doesn't
wanna pay for the estimate, and the

859
00:29:40,494 --> 00:29:45,224
builder doesn't have the structure to be
able to put together a detailed costing.

860
00:29:45,654 --> 00:29:45,664
I

861
00:29:45,674 --> 00:29:46,053
agree with you on that.

862
00:29:46,053 --> 00:29:48,804
You know what, you know what I'm liking
out of this conversation is I think

863
00:29:48,814 --> 00:29:55,048
how you and I estimate and cost is
on the, very much on the right path.

864
00:29:55,048 --> 00:29:55,443
Mm-hmm.

865
00:29:55,444 --> 00:29:59,954
And I think the… Well, I, I guess we
might be a little bit more unique when

866
00:29:59,954 --> 00:30:02,393
it comes to the trade- All these guys
are, yeah … w- w- when it comes to

867
00:30:02,393 --> 00:30:05,954
the trade relationships, because we've
been dealing with our same trades for

868
00:30:05,954 --> 00:30:09,574
years, and for the most part, they're
getting a good chunk of our work.

869
00:30:09,584 --> 00:30:09,604
Yeah.

870
00:30:09,614 --> 00:30:13,273
So they, I think they feel
value in quoting our projects.

871
00:30:13,614 --> 00:30:15,663
I guess I, I just wanna put this
out there, 'cause I know there

872
00:30:15,663 --> 00:30:17,293
is homeowners that listen to this

873
00:30:18,473 --> 00:30:20,673
pod- this- So maybe the better way to do
it is, like, for the roofer, "Hey, I've

874
00:30:20,673 --> 00:30:24,314
got this little media- this much square
meters, I've got this. Can you just put a

875
00:30:24,314 --> 00:30:25,813
number next to it for me for the minute?"

876
00:30:26,163 --> 00:30:29,123
What about you go the, go the other
way around and saying, "Based off my

877
00:30:29,123 --> 00:30:31,988
numbers and calculations, I've got X
amount of linear meters of gutters, X

878
00:30:31,988 --> 00:30:36,344
amount of downpipes, rain head pipes,
box gutters." "Here's where the job is.

879
00:30:36,364 --> 00:30:38,343
Here's the complexities,
here's the problems.

880
00:30:38,374 --> 00:30:39,643
Do you think that this is suitable?"

881
00:30:40,084 --> 00:30:43,053
Yeah, I, I, I like this way, which
is just h- what I said before.

882
00:30:43,084 --> 00:30:46,903
You- you're leading them with a
number, 'cause they're either gonna

883
00:30:46,904 --> 00:30:49,073
say yes or they're gonna say no.

884
00:30:49,084 --> 00:30:49,174
From Rolex.

885
00:30:49,264 --> 00:30:51,814
It's how, they, they then they go,
"Send me the plans." They then,

886
00:30:51,834 --> 00:30:53,825
like, I, like, I look at a- But
I think you can't do that either

887
00:30:53,825 --> 00:30:55,874
… 
yeah, they don't, yeah The project's
not ready for you to have the plans.

888
00:30:55,874 --> 00:30:55,963
It's impossible.

889
00:30:55,963 --> 00:30:59,803
Because Mr. Roofer, I wanna give you
the plans when we're ready to go, 'cause

890
00:30:59,883 --> 00:31:01,444
I want you to give me the best price.

891
00:31:02,203 --> 00:31:03,663
The ha- the hard thing is, like-
That's it … so I look at a job we

892
00:31:03,663 --> 00:31:07,933
just did recently, and so it wasn't,
it's definitely not, it was about two,

893
00:31:07,974 --> 00:31:12,323
two and a half prop mil we came in at
the first estimate, and they, they'd

894
00:31:12,404 --> 00:31:16,363
specified a special fancy as fuck brick.

895
00:31:16,373 --> 00:31:17,484
It was $9 a brick.

896
00:31:19,003 --> 00:31:20,633
Which is only 40 mil high.

897
00:31:20,823 --> 00:31:24,893
So- So by 360 long or something like that.

898
00:31:24,893 --> 00:31:28,714
So how do I get my brickie to
go, 'cause that's, like, double

899
00:31:28,714 --> 00:31:29,923
the install rate at least.

900
00:31:29,933 --> 00:31:30,523
It's the-

901
00:31:30,523 --> 00:31:31,483
Well, let's apply common sense

902
00:31:31,493 --> 00:31:33,514
there … yeah, so, so, so, so
to me, that's why I go, "Hey, can

903
00:31:33,514 --> 00:31:35,543
you, here's the brick. Can you
go, can you give me a number?"

904
00:31:35,623 --> 00:31:37,324
Well, why can't we just
apply common sense?

905
00:31:37,324 --> 00:31:38,713
Like, this is estimating, okay?

906
00:31:38,724 --> 00:31:38,744
Yeah.

907
00:31:38,753 --> 00:31:40,113
Let's start talking about estimating.

908
00:31:40,633 --> 00:31:44,483
If a normal brick is,
what is it, 110 by 290?

909
00:31:44,523 --> 00:31:44,914
Yeah, yeah.

910
00:31:44,954 --> 00:31:45,254
Right?

911
00:31:46,126 --> 00:31:49,436
And if that costs $3 to install,
and you're talking about your fancy

912
00:31:49,436 --> 00:31:51,946
brick here- Yeah … why can't
you just make an educated decision

913
00:31:51,946 --> 00:31:55,006
because you are a qualified and
skilled builder to say- I have no

914
00:31:55,006 --> 00:31:55,356
idea how

915
00:31:55,356 --> 00:31:56,516
much Yeah, but this is
what I'm trying to get to.

916
00:31:56,516 --> 00:31:56,616
Yeah.

917
00:31:56,616 --> 00:31:57,135
Hear me through.

918
00:31:57,555 --> 00:31:59,976
Why don't we just put in
$12 a brick for labor?

919
00:32:00,526 --> 00:32:02,678
'
Cause what if I get it wrong
and then the client's like-

920
00:32:02,678 --> 00:32:05,006
But that's all, that's step
number three, remember.

921
00:32:05,325 --> 00:32:08,456
Like, step number three is putting a
budget to the client that's realistic.

922
00:32:08,456 --> 00:32:09,556
"Hey, I've allowed for-"

923
00:32:09,565 --> 00:32:13,356
Actually, I actually think $12 a brick
i- in that scenario is realistic.

924
00:32:13,725 --> 00:32:15,976
I think it would end up being
a lot more than $12 a brick.

925
00:32:16,346 --> 00:32:16,576
You reckon?

926
00:32:16,786 --> 00:32:17,316
It could be.

927
00:32:17,335 --> 00:32:17,876
Yeah, yeah.

928
00:32:17,876 --> 00:32:18,516
It could be.

929
00:32:18,516 --> 00:32:18,702
Yeah.

930
00:32:18,702 --> 00:32:19,946
It depends, it depends what,

931
00:32:20,816 --> 00:32:20,976
what's involved.

932
00:32:20,976 --> 00:32:24,726
Cuts, it's all the cuts and stuff
and, like… So there's cer- I think,

933
00:32:24,835 --> 00:32:27,816
I think I agree with you on 50…
I think the times you actually have

934
00:32:27,816 --> 00:32:29,961
to go to the tradie and go, "I just
got no idea what happens here."

935
00:32:29,961 --> 00:32:30,891
That's correct, and there
are some things, yes.

936
00:32:30,891 --> 00:32:34,556
"Can you, can you give me something?"
I also think the part that I liked,

937
00:32:34,556 --> 00:32:36,866
I guess, like if I went to the
bricky and go, "This is the square

938
00:32:36,866 --> 00:32:38,505
meterage I've roughly got right now.

939
00:32:38,946 --> 00:32:40,015
This is the spec.

940
00:32:40,075 --> 00:32:43,955
Just put the number next to it in an
email for me at least." The pro- problem

941
00:32:43,955 --> 00:32:46,245
is I, like, wonder, build how I can
just send out my quote request now.

942
00:32:46,245 --> 00:32:46,995
It's just so easy.

943
00:32:47,005 --> 00:32:49,955
Mm. But- Good … but the problem is,
I also don't have problems a lot of the

944
00:32:49,955 --> 00:32:53,405
time with getting tradies to quote at
that stage, because I let them know, "Hey,

945
00:32:54,035 --> 00:32:56,385
w- this is, like, the first estimation.

946
00:32:56,545 --> 00:32:59,526
Do the grunt work now because
the second part is the plan's

947
00:32:59,526 --> 00:33:00,265
probably only gonna change.

948
00:33:00,315 --> 00:33:03,216
I just need refinement," or, "Can
you just confirm your price?"

949
00:33:03,565 --> 00:33:07,576
So h- how we do it, which is very similar
to you, yeah, at step three, and, and I'll

950
00:33:07,576 --> 00:33:10,715
just maybe just give you- Yeah … some,
again, context around how we do it.

951
00:33:10,725 --> 00:33:14,125
Step number three, I go to two
electricians, two sparkies.

952
00:33:14,155 --> 00:33:14,642
Which we're doing for the first time now.

953
00:33:14,642 --> 00:33:18,035
So two, two electricals, two, two
plumbers, two… And f- in my,

954
00:33:18,096 --> 00:33:22,426
in my mind, it's about creating
value for the client at that stage.

955
00:33:22,835 --> 00:33:24,365
The, at estimation four-

956
00:33:24,605 --> 00:33:24,925
Mm

957
00:33:24,965 --> 00:33:26,985
… 
we're only going to one of those.

958
00:33:27,045 --> 00:33:28,665
We're not putting them together again.

959
00:33:28,675 --> 00:33:30,795
We've selected the person
that we're using as-

960
00:33:30,795 --> 00:33:35,306
Well, I think that's, that's…
So step number four, that's where

961
00:33:35,306 --> 00:33:36,745
I believe you should be paid

962
00:33:40,406 --> 00:33:45,246
I mean, there's a price that could be
said between $1,500 to $6,000 to $10,000.

963
00:33:45,266 --> 00:33:45,286
Yeah.

964
00:33:45,376 --> 00:33:45,656
Yep.

965
00:33:45,676 --> 00:33:49,036
Because you are paid at
that process to negotiate-

966
00:33:49,485 --> 00:33:49,766
Never

967
00:33:49,795 --> 00:33:50,136
… 
the trades and suppliers.

968
00:33:50,136 --> 00:33:50,496
Yeah, yeah.

969
00:33:50,496 --> 00:33:50,786
Yeah.

970
00:33:51,116 --> 00:33:51,586
Okay.

971
00:33:51,625 --> 00:33:53,136
Go to three or four
different electricians.

972
00:33:53,156 --> 00:33:54,165
I know you said one.

973
00:33:54,425 --> 00:33:54,605
Yeah.

974
00:33:54,606 --> 00:33:55,386
That's okay.

975
00:33:55,806 --> 00:33:56,905
You do what works for you.

976
00:33:56,966 --> 00:33:57,495
Well, we're doing,

977
00:33:57,495 --> 00:33:57,925
we're doing- But you're also-

978
00:33:57,925 --> 00:33:59,755
We're, we're doing two
at step three though

979
00:33:59,766 --> 00:34:01,775
So my stage four is almost my stage three.

980
00:34:02,026 --> 00:34:02,316
Well-

981
00:34:02,356 --> 00:34:02,825
It's almo-

982
00:34:03,815 --> 00:34:03,875
almost-

983
00:34:03,875 --> 00:34:03,955
You're

984
00:34:03,955 --> 00:34:03,985
paid

985
00:34:04,275 --> 00:34:04,355
to, you're paid to

986
00:34:04,356 --> 00:34:04,826
negotiate

987
00:34:04,826 --> 00:34:04,855
… 
the flip.

988
00:34:04,855 --> 00:34:05,985
It's almost the, it's almost the flip.

989
00:34:06,085 --> 00:34:08,585
Like- Yeah … like I've kind of-
Yeah … got mine the almost opposite

990
00:34:08,585 --> 00:34:10,485
side around to a point where it's- So,

991
00:34:10,485 --> 00:34:11,065
so do I.

992
00:34:11,105 --> 00:34:11,355
Yeah.

993
00:34:11,355 --> 00:34:11,666
I think, I think- Which,

994
00:34:11,666 --> 00:34:12,395
which is interesting, which is

995
00:34:12,395 --> 00:34:14,385
inter- But there's nothing to
say that my process is right.

996
00:34:14,505 --> 00:34:16,305
No, but it's, it's- This is what
the best part about building

997
00:34:16,335 --> 00:34:17,125
is, is like there's, there's-

998
00:34:17,125 --> 00:34:17,145
Yeah.

999
00:34:17,285 --> 00:34:18,995
But actually, but I, I think
both have merit though.

1000
00:34:19,045 --> 00:34:19,326
Yeah.

1001
00:34:19,326 --> 00:34:22,335
And I, I, I'm actually hearing what
you're saying, 'cause I think step

1002
00:34:22,335 --> 00:34:27,275
number three, you know, to kind of
really dive into what you're saying, it's

1003
00:34:27,275 --> 00:34:32,015
really g- making sure that the builder
knows the quantities and the builder

1004
00:34:32,035 --> 00:34:34,295
has a good handle on what things cost.

1005
00:34:34,335 --> 00:34:34,735
It's costing

1006
00:34:34,735 --> 00:34:38,195
so- So I actually think that that's not
a bad way to do it, but I still think

1007
00:34:38,195 --> 00:34:42,355
that there's conversations in there
when we're leaning on specialty trades,

1008
00:34:42,355 --> 00:34:44,085
licensed trades to get their feedback.

1009
00:34:44,085 --> 00:34:44,125
I

1010
00:34:44,125 --> 00:34:47,066
also think it's also, like, choose your
own adventure at that point, depending on

1011
00:34:47,066 --> 00:34:48,375
the plans you have or the type of build.

1012
00:34:48,376 --> 00:34:51,965
Like, if it is a custom architectural
home, I think that there's so many

1013
00:34:51,985 --> 00:34:53,046
things that you need to send it out.

1014
00:34:53,046 --> 00:34:55,855
But then if you're got, hey,
there's a lot of choices to be made

1015
00:34:55,855 --> 00:35:01,355
later on, I think then ultimately
you ha- it should be your way.

1016
00:35:01,995 --> 00:35:04,585
I actually think if you've got,
like, "Oh, we, we don't know

1017
00:35:05,135 --> 00:35:06,046
what we want to do- But that's-

1018
00:35:06,046 --> 00:35:09,786
the kitchen and we, we, we, we
haven't got an interior designer and

1019
00:35:09,786 --> 00:35:12,526
we kinda wanna work it out as we go
and have a provisional sum," your

1020
00:35:12,526 --> 00:35:14,485
way's 100% the way to be running it.

1021
00:35:15,046 --> 00:35:17,865
Hey, I'm about to go on a journey
with systems, and I'm working

1022
00:35:17,866 --> 00:35:21,465
with James from BizTech Guru, who,
he was a guest on our podcast.

1023
00:35:21,495 --> 00:35:24,775
He was, and I've actually done a lot
of work with James in the past, and

1024
00:35:24,845 --> 00:35:30,515
it has transformed my business from
just being this classic clusterfuck

1025
00:35:30,525 --> 00:35:34,085
of a building company to a systems
orientated focused business.

1026
00:35:34,095 --> 00:35:36,905
And what he's, from understanding,
it's all focused on builders and-

1027
00:35:36,915 --> 00:35:40,015
Yep … we're going to be doing a
live webinar with him coming up-

1028
00:35:40,046 --> 00:35:43,855
Yep … as part of this, and it's
gonna be a big introduction to systems

1029
00:35:43,855 --> 00:35:45,525
and how it can improve your business.

1030
00:35:45,575 --> 00:35:46,345
And you know the beauty about it?

1031
00:35:46,406 --> 00:35:48,225
It is gonna be absolutely free.

1032
00:35:48,226 --> 00:35:48,386
Yeah.

1033
00:35:48,616 --> 00:35:51,125
So keep an eye out for the dates.

1034
00:35:51,166 --> 00:35:55,645
Uh, this is gonna be a really incredibly
valuable workshop to not miss out on.

1035
00:35:55,666 --> 00:35:55,946
Yeah.

1036
00:35:55,946 --> 00:36:00,285
So either shoot us a DM, um, check
the show notes, but we'll put a link

1037
00:36:00,315 --> 00:36:02,155
below here to show you how to sign up.

1038
00:36:02,265 --> 00:36:03,715
So- Cheers … make sure you sign up

1039
00:36:07,037 --> 00:36:10,348
But this is where, let's go back to step
number two and even step number one.

1040
00:36:10,687 --> 00:36:12,848
You've got to learn about your customer.

1041
00:36:13,067 --> 00:36:13,328
Yeah.

1042
00:36:13,707 --> 00:36:19,477
Because I think as a custom builder
business, there are multiple different

1043
00:36:19,477 --> 00:36:20,587
avenues that you need to take.

1044
00:36:20,597 --> 00:36:23,757
Like, I think you shouldn't just
have one strategy for costings.

1045
00:36:24,727 --> 00:36:27,647
You should have different ways
to achieve a construction price,

1046
00:36:27,647 --> 00:36:30,258
because at step number two, you're
learning about the customer.

1047
00:36:30,647 --> 00:36:35,407
If you're an accountant or a
lawyer, that is possibly a different

1048
00:36:35,407 --> 00:36:36,808
approach to what it might be for

1049
00:36:39,342 --> 00:36:42,324
Someone retail shop or-

1050
00:36:42,324 --> 00:36:42,744
Yeah

1051
00:36:42,784 --> 00:36:43,184
… 
something different.

1052
00:36:43,424 --> 00:36:43,694
Yeah.

1053
00:36:43,914 --> 00:36:44,474
I'm not trying to be- But

1054
00:36:44,484 --> 00:36:47,844
we, we, we do have two, so we get two
different… So we use you, and you use

1055
00:36:47,844 --> 00:36:51,153
someone else, and we bring the numbers
together, and then use our data as well as

1056
00:36:51,154 --> 00:36:52,984
the- Yeah, we're talking about
different steps in the process.

1057
00:36:52,994 --> 00:36:53,014
Yeah.

1058
00:36:53,034 --> 00:36:54,554
A- whether you go one to three.

1059
00:36:54,564 --> 00:36:57,973
Some builders have the verbal
conversation, and then they go

1060
00:36:57,973 --> 00:36:58,893
straight to step number four.

1061
00:36:59,194 --> 00:36:59,534
Mm.

1062
00:36:59,573 --> 00:37:03,214
'
Cause that's their process, or that's
what that specific client wants.

1063
00:37:03,214 --> 00:37:06,074
Or they- they've got so far advanced
plans they've come in right at the end.

1064
00:37:06,104 --> 00:37:07,844
There's, there's no
point running that third.

1065
00:37:07,844 --> 00:37:08,947
You may as well just go
straight to the end and save

1066
00:37:08,947 --> 00:37:09,165
the time and effort.

1067
00:37:09,165 --> 00:37:13,383
Well, if we're talking about early builder
engagement, which is what needs to happen-

1068
00:37:14,833 --> 00:37:14,994
Do you

1069
00:37:14,994 --> 00:37:16,744
think- … then, then you
need that four-step process-

1070
00:37:16,744 --> 00:37:19,758
Yeah … or three-step process,
or a detailed process to cover it.

1071
00:37:19,758 --> 00:37:19,893
Yeah.

1072
00:37:19,893 --> 00:37:19,913
Yeah.

1073
00:37:19,934 --> 00:37:22,853
So someone that's probably completely
independent to builders and architects,

1074
00:37:22,884 --> 00:37:24,713
what are your thoughts on tenders?

1075
00:37:26,393 --> 00:37:27,053
Ask the question again.

1076
00:37:27,064 --> 00:37:28,224
So you're independent.

1077
00:37:28,263 --> 00:37:29,833
You're not a builder,
you're not an architect.

1078
00:37:29,833 --> 00:37:30,313
Yep,

1079
00:37:30,313 --> 00:37:30,873
yep.

1080
00:37:30,873 --> 00:37:32,463
You're, you're not a, you're not a client.

1081
00:37:32,474 --> 00:37:34,263
Do you think people should
be going to a tender?

1082
00:37:34,263 --> 00:37:36,483
Or how do you think?

1083
00:37:36,483 --> 00:37:37,243
Because you're… Well,

1084
00:37:38,313 --> 00:37:38,814
here's- Do you know what I mean?

1085
00:37:38,814 --> 00:37:41,533
Like- … yeah, I, I wanted to
bring up this conversation and hear

1086
00:37:41,533 --> 00:37:43,373
youse guys' thoughts on it, 'cause

1087
00:37:45,813 --> 00:37:50,534
I like to find examples and
then replicate processes.

1088
00:37:50,913 --> 00:37:53,754
What I don't understand in construction,
and we're talking about tendering.

1089
00:37:53,803 --> 00:37:54,163
Yeah.

1090
00:37:54,743 --> 00:37:58,454
The construction industry is the,
one of the very few, I'm not gonna

1091
00:37:58,454 --> 00:37:59,963
say only because I don't know.

1092
00:38:00,133 --> 00:38:00,203
Yeah.

1093
00:38:00,893 --> 00:38:02,143
We design first.

1094
00:38:04,703 --> 00:38:05,647
You know where I'm going with this?

1095
00:38:05,647 --> 00:38:05,794
Yeah.

1096
00:38:05,794 --> 00:38:06,903
I know exactly where you're going.

1097
00:38:07,023 --> 00:38:07,313
Yep.

1098
00:38:07,684 --> 00:38:12,413
We then do our selections,
then we bloody price.

1099
00:38:12,654 --> 00:38:12,964
Yeah.

1100
00:38:13,084 --> 00:38:13,474
Yeah.

1101
00:38:13,663 --> 00:38:14,053
Yeah.

1102
00:38:15,834 --> 00:38:16,623
It's fucking brilliant.

1103
00:38:16,673 --> 00:38:17,614
I, I, I know.

1104
00:38:17,614 --> 00:38:19,353
Like, tell me what other
industry does that?

1105
00:38:19,474 --> 00:38:19,753
I know.

1106
00:38:20,103 --> 00:38:24,773
So I actually was reviewing for
someone yesterday a architectural,

1107
00:38:24,873 --> 00:38:28,463
um, they're engaging an architect,
so someone that I know, and I was

1108
00:38:28,513 --> 00:38:29,823
going through their price guide.

1109
00:38:30,263 --> 00:38:32,983
And there clearly it says,
"Client budget, $1 million."

1110
00:38:33,703 --> 00:38:36,113
So they've gone, this is what the
client wants to spend is $1 million.

1111
00:38:36,883 --> 00:38:40,513
They've based their pricing
off a $1.5 million build.

1112
00:38:40,513 --> 00:38:42,713
I'm like, but then, but
the price is one million.

1113
00:38:44,073 --> 00:38:45,303
Like, I, I'm, I'm confused here.

1114
00:38:45,343 --> 00:38:47,713
Like, aren't you designing
to 1 million, not 1.5?

1115
00:38:47,934 --> 00:38:49,653
You can't design to a number.

1116
00:38:49,753 --> 00:38:50,474
I don't, I don't believe you

1117
00:38:50,474 --> 00:38:50,584
can.

1118
00:38:50,594 --> 00:38:52,093
And, and I'm not having a
crack at architects here.

1119
00:38:52,093 --> 00:38:52,483
I agree.

1120
00:38:52,554 --> 00:38:53,043
I don't th- Yeah.

1121
00:38:53,054 --> 00:38:56,073
It's hard because- Yeah … you also,
you speak to architects and they're

1122
00:38:56,073 --> 00:38:58,495
like, "The client's gone, 'We want
this, this and this.'" And they're

1123
00:38:58,495 --> 00:39:00,223
like, "Yeah, but that's two mil.

1124
00:39:00,233 --> 00:39:02,593
You're one… You've got a
million dollar budget, though."

1125
00:39:02,834 --> 00:39:03,034
Yeah.

1126
00:39:03,514 --> 00:39:04,014
I, I- But the, the architects can-

1127
00:39:04,014 --> 00:39:04,113
I

1128
00:39:04,114 --> 00:39:08,663
agree you can't design to a number, and
then I also am gonna re- reiterate, this

1129
00:39:08,664 --> 00:39:14,024
is where this step of estimating and
costing is really important, and also

1130
00:39:14,024 --> 00:39:17,243
to re- reiterate something you said, you
need to get a builder involved early.

1131
00:39:17,253 --> 00:39:17,713
Correct.

1132
00:39:17,783 --> 00:39:18,203
So how

1133
00:39:18,203 --> 00:39:19,673
would you- Like, that's the only
way to, to get to budget Well, I

1134
00:39:19,673 --> 00:39:20,553
mean, okay.

1135
00:39:20,823 --> 00:39:22,314
Ideal world, how do you
think it should work?

1136
00:39:22,314 --> 00:39:24,263
Like, I know you've sort of just
sort of said it, but you- So

1137
00:39:24,263 --> 00:39:27,174
I had a, I had a conversation with
someone last night at the APB dinner

1138
00:39:27,174 --> 00:39:33,953
awards night, and I said, I said the
story of, you know, design, select, cost.

1139
00:39:34,513 --> 00:39:35,084
When you go

1140
00:39:37,173 --> 00:39:38,383
and buy a new car, right?

1141
00:39:38,383 --> 00:39:39,813
Let's say we're gonna buy a Mercedes.

1142
00:39:40,206 --> 00:39:43,686
You go to the website and it gives
you a base model price, and then it

1143
00:39:43,686 --> 00:39:49,476
can tell you how much the upgraded
spoiler is, the carbon fibre, V6, V8,

1144
00:39:49,555 --> 00:39:50,816
twin turbo, all that sort of stuff.

1145
00:39:50,816 --> 00:39:52,296
In the construction
industry, there's nothing.

1146
00:39:52,776 --> 00:39:54,156
Actually, sorry, there is.

1147
00:39:54,305 --> 00:39:55,095
It's that we avoid it.

1148
00:39:55,965 --> 00:39:56,846
Design and construct.

1149
00:39:58,015 --> 00:39:58,155
No.

1150
00:39:58,216 --> 00:40:01,976
We avoid learning what the
prices of things are before

1151
00:40:01,976 --> 00:40:04,025
we go into the design phase.

1152
00:40:04,036 --> 00:40:04,786
So from a c- from a

1153
00:40:04,796 --> 00:40:05,845
client point of view?

1154
00:40:05,876 --> 00:40:06,455
From a client point of view.

1155
00:40:06,456 --> 00:40:06,915
From, yeah.

1156
00:40:06,956 --> 00:40:09,105
Because there's-

1157
00:40:09,905 --> 00:40:10,945
Do you want to expand on that a bit more?

1158
00:40:14,750 --> 00:40:18,690
I believe if we know the true
cost of construction early,

1159
00:40:18,750 --> 00:40:19,720
projects will never get built

1160
00:40:21,486 --> 00:40:24,716
This is, this probably flows into
then a conversation s- bes- I don't

1161
00:40:24,716 --> 00:40:26,586
know if this bridges a little bit.

1162
00:40:27,716 --> 00:40:29,806
And I know this is how everyone
else in the world functions.

1163
00:40:30,236 --> 00:40:34,196
Wouldn't it just be simpler if it's cost
plus and not like with an estimate- Mm

1164
00:40:34,205 --> 00:40:35,606
and a fixed, like a number on it?

1165
00:40:35,926 --> 00:40:39,235
But the fixed price estimate kind
of complicates a lot of things.

1166
00:40:39,236 --> 00:40:40,036
Oh yeah, it does.

1167
00:40:40,736 --> 00:40:44,235
Well, I mean, let's talk about
fixed price versus cost plus.

1168
00:40:45,086 --> 00:40:50,006
I've got a bee in my bonnet with tradies
who know that it's fixed- uh, sorry, with

1169
00:40:50,035 --> 00:40:52,195
tradies who know that it's cost plus.

1170
00:40:52,275 --> 00:40:53,366
No, they still have to price it.

1171
00:40:54,335 --> 00:40:54,705
Sorry.

1172
00:40:55,186 --> 00:40:59,595
When, when tradies know it's a cost
plus project, do they quote correctly?

1173
00:40:59,925 --> 00:41:02,605
Well, the, the cost plus contract from
my understanding, you still have to

1174
00:41:02,605 --> 00:41:05,595
follow the plans and that, and anything
outside that is still a variation.

1175
00:41:06,105 --> 00:41:07,335
The plans have the information.

1176
00:41:07,405 --> 00:41:07,795
Okay.

1177
00:41:07,815 --> 00:41:10,465
So, oh, God.

1178
00:41:10,485 --> 00:41:11,716
So I, I know, I actually agree
with what you're saying, though.

1179
00:41:11,716 --> 00:41:13,725
I hear, I hear, I hear what you're saying.

1180
00:41:13,725 --> 00:41:14,775
Yeah, I actually agree with you.

1181
00:41:14,775 --> 00:41:14,905
I hear what you're saying.

1182
00:41:14,915 --> 00:41:21,455
So in a, in a, in a real world
example, I like how it should

1183
00:41:21,455 --> 00:41:23,175
work is what I should be saying.

1184
00:41:23,306 --> 00:41:23,526
Yeah.

1185
00:41:23,526 --> 00:41:25,636
But reality is what
you're saying is correct.

1186
00:41:25,695 --> 00:41:28,646
And I think that's where a
lot of people get me confused.

1187
00:41:29,605 --> 00:41:34,476
Because I mean, I'm here as
an independent, you know, I,

1188
00:41:34,476 --> 00:41:35,895
I don't profit from a build.

1189
00:41:35,895 --> 00:41:40,056
I don't, you know, I'm
not invested in, um-

1190
00:41:40,075 --> 00:41:40,746
You're a numbers guy

1191
00:41:40,765 --> 00:41:41,616
… 
I'm a numbers guy.

1192
00:41:41,625 --> 00:41:45,215
So I'm here to try to say what the
real, real truth is for a number.

1193
00:41:45,225 --> 00:41:50,275
I know for a fact that if a b- I
believe… Well, I wouldn't say a fact.

1194
00:41:50,395 --> 00:41:56,756
I believe that if the plumber
calls the builder and the, and

1195
00:41:56,756 --> 00:42:01,645
the builder says it's a cost plus
project, is he gonna quote correctly?

1196
00:42:02,315 --> 00:42:05,165
Or is he gonna quote more correctly
if it's a fixed cost contract?

1197
00:42:05,575 --> 00:42:09,075
No, the, i- the contract is fixed
between myself and the client,

1198
00:42:09,115 --> 00:42:10,265
it's a cost plus contract.

1199
00:42:10,265 --> 00:42:10,565
Yeah.

1200
00:42:10,645 --> 00:42:13,705
Between myself and the, the tradie,
it's on a cost plus contract.

1201
00:42:14,675 --> 00:42:16,515
How's he gonna quote most accurate?

1202
00:42:17,145 --> 00:42:19,655
You, you're telling me
that they quote the same.

1203
00:42:19,655 --> 00:42:21,645
I wouldn't tell them, I
wouldn't tell them personally.

1204
00:42:21,705 --> 00:42:26,565
I know in my back end, and I'll say
this openly, like for example, if

1205
00:42:26,705 --> 00:42:29,336
I had a concrete, a concrete go,
"Hey, actually you missed like three

1206
00:42:29,336 --> 00:42:33,806
lengths of mesh," I can like, we,
we, it's a, I can work this one out.

1207
00:42:34,676 --> 00:42:38,935
I wouldn't directly… Because I also
think it like, the same problem if,

1208
00:42:39,245 --> 00:42:42,005
flows if as a builder, if we can't
have all these numbers and make it

1209
00:42:42,006 --> 00:42:44,775
right, we also need to be fair to
the tradies that, you know what, they

1210
00:42:44,775 --> 00:42:46,475
sometimes accidentally miss something.

1211
00:42:46,765 --> 00:42:49,406
And I'm so much happier for them
to be like, come in at a nice

1212
00:42:49,406 --> 00:42:52,416
price that's right, and then go,
"Hey, hand up, I missed something."

1213
00:42:52,795 --> 00:42:53,766
And I can go, "You know what?

1214
00:42:53,766 --> 00:42:54,565
We can work that out."

1215
00:42:54,625 --> 00:42:54,895
Yeah.

1216
00:42:55,515 --> 00:42:56,525
So, so let me, let me- Within reason.

1217
00:42:56,525 --> 00:42:56,796
Within

1218
00:42:56,796 --> 00:42:57,265
reason

1219
00:42:57,265 --> 00:42:59,086
… 
let me, let me just
clarify where you're going.

1220
00:42:59,086 --> 00:43:00,825
So are you s- because I
think I agree with you.

1221
00:43:00,865 --> 00:43:04,685
Are you saying that if tradies know that
it's cost plus, they're not gonna be

1222
00:43:04,685 --> 00:43:06,905
as accurate with their pricing because
they know that it's- They're gonna

1223
00:43:06,905 --> 00:43:07,015
get

1224
00:43:07,805 --> 00:43:08,435
paid … they know they're gonna get paid?

1225
00:43:08,435 --> 00:43:08,635
Yeah.

1226
00:43:08,635 --> 00:43:09,109
Are they?

1227
00:43:09,109 --> 00:43:10,715
And I don't dis- and I
don't disagree with you.

1228
00:43:11,525 --> 00:43:12,834
I, I actually kind of want to kick

1229
00:43:12,834 --> 00:43:13,100
back on this.

1230
00:43:13,100 --> 00:43:17,025
Well, I, I have a friend who prefers
comp- cost plus contract because he

1231
00:43:17,025 --> 00:43:18,125
knows the build's gonna get built

1232
00:43:18,944 --> 00:43:20,774
I actually, but I want to kick
back because it ultimately-

1233
00:43:20,783 --> 00:43:22,004
As in a tradie friend?

1234
00:43:22,093 --> 00:43:23,163
No, no, no, a homeowner friend.

1235
00:43:23,163 --> 00:43:23,214
A

1236
00:43:23,214 --> 00:43:23,663
homeowner, yeah.

1237
00:43:23,663 --> 00:43:27,033
The, the thing is, like, I, I'm gonna
kick back a bit here because, like, the,

1238
00:43:27,113 --> 00:43:30,584
from a, from a legal sense, I have a
contract with the client that's cost plus.

1239
00:43:30,894 --> 00:43:35,413
My contract and my trade agreement
with the trade is not cost plus.

1240
00:43:35,573 --> 00:43:39,553
I should still be doing my due diligence
for the client to have fixed pricing.

1241
00:43:39,743 --> 00:43:42,293
This is, this is the very
tight fixed budget we should

1242
00:43:42,303 --> 00:43:43,673
be coming in with roughly.

1243
00:43:43,874 --> 00:43:47,563
I, I'd probably, I'd probably spend
more time- Yeah … on a cost plus

1244
00:43:47,563 --> 00:43:47,624
project.

1245
00:43:47,624 --> 00:43:49,423
I'd be too scared because
that's where everyone gets sued.

1246
00:43:49,654 --> 00:43:50,073
Yeah.

1247
00:43:50,423 --> 00:43:54,343
Okay, so then let's, let me ask
yous guys as experienced builders

1248
00:43:55,502 --> 00:43:59,122
If you have a cost plus project,
you're required to get three quotes.

1249
00:43:59,132 --> 00:43:59,732
Is that correct?

1250
00:44:00,221 --> 00:44:03,202
Not necessarily, because I think
there's enough, as you go back

1251
00:44:03,202 --> 00:44:03,832
to your question originally-

1252
00:44:03,832 --> 00:44:04,892
I, I don't, I haven't done enough of

1253
00:44:04,892 --> 00:44:07,132
them to- No, I haven't, I haven't done
them, but, like, I'm just thinking

1254
00:44:07,132 --> 00:44:13,642
logically, like, you as a client come to
me as a builder, I have trades that, um, I

1255
00:44:13,642 --> 00:44:16,841
know are gonna get the job done and it's-

1256
00:44:16,932 --> 00:44:20,041
I, I would still go through
exactly the same process-

1257
00:44:20,072 --> 00:44:20,651
Yeah, yeah, I, I would-

1258
00:44:20,902 --> 00:44:21,452
that we're, that we're
saying, yeah … the

1259
00:44:21,452 --> 00:44:22,072
contract is just different.

1260
00:44:22,072 --> 00:44:22,931
Well, I tell you, I reckon there's

1261
00:44:23,141 --> 00:44:27,011
builders out there who just
give a, a ballpark price, slap

1262
00:44:27,012 --> 00:44:28,552
together a couple of budgets-

1263
00:44:29,061 --> 00:44:29,221
I-

1264
00:44:29,232 --> 00:44:31,021
… 
for trades and suppliers and
go cost plus straightaway.

1265
00:44:31,051 --> 00:44:35,221
And I reckon that would be, o- out of
our bubble, I reckon that'd be 90% of

1266
00:44:35,221 --> 00:44:35,322
them.

1267
00:44:35,322 --> 00:44:38,761
I actually, I, I don't know, and maybe
I'm unique and maybe you're unique here,

1268
00:44:39,002 --> 00:44:40,662
I could not sleep at night if I did that.

1269
00:44:40,671 --> 00:44:40,681
Oh.

1270
00:44:40,752 --> 00:44:41,101
Yeah, but-

1271
00:44:41,881 --> 00:44:43,241
I'd want everything so documented

1272
00:44:43,281 --> 00:44:45,531
cost plus … that's, that's why, that's
why youse guys are different as builders.

1273
00:44:45,541 --> 00:44:46,051
Yeah.

1274
00:44:46,051 --> 00:44:46,491
Okay?

1275
00:44:46,491 --> 00:44:47,481
And our bubble is different, too.

1276
00:44:47,522 --> 00:44:47,952
Remember that.

1277
00:44:47,952 --> 00:44:50,471
The people we speak to would
also most likely do the same.

1278
00:44:50,531 --> 00:44:54,552
And, and I'm saying, I'm saying I'd be
anxious, one, not the fact that, like, I

1279
00:44:54,552 --> 00:44:58,612
know that my money would be safe because
I- … 'cause it's cost plus and legally,

1280
00:44:58,851 --> 00:45:00,856
whatever it costs, they're gonna pay.

1281
00:45:00,856 --> 00:45:01,321
As long as it's

1282
00:45:01,351 --> 00:45:02,131
as per plan.

1283
00:45:02,171 --> 00:45:04,921
But I would be scared about
the relationship breaking down.

1284
00:45:05,161 --> 00:45:08,921
Well, if I was a homeowner, I would
want my builder to negotiate as hard

1285
00:45:08,921 --> 00:45:11,801
as possible to get the best price
possible for every trade and supplier.

1286
00:45:11,851 --> 00:45:14,201
Now, if that is down the fixed
cost route or that is down the

1287
00:45:14,222 --> 00:45:15,832
cost plus route, it doesn't matter.

1288
00:45:15,932 --> 00:45:16,932
That's the end goal.

1289
00:45:17,011 --> 00:45:17,441
I agree.

1290
00:45:17,502 --> 00:45:17,702
Yeah.

1291
00:45:17,741 --> 00:45:18,132
I agree.

1292
00:45:18,152 --> 00:45:19,191
I- And, and, and y- and we do.

1293
00:45:19,201 --> 00:45:21,612
Like, for the first time ever now,
I shop around because I'm like,

1294
00:45:21,661 --> 00:45:22,651
"I think they're taking the piss."

1295
00:45:22,701 --> 00:45:25,261
I mean, I, I have, I have a homeowner
at the moment and he knows, 'cause

1296
00:45:25,311 --> 00:45:26,771
we're starting the project soon.

1297
00:45:26,771 --> 00:45:28,472
Uh, you know, there's been
many conversations, is this

1298
00:45:28,472 --> 00:45:29,561
cost plus or is it not?

1299
00:45:29,631 --> 00:45:32,731
And, and we- we're oscillating between
one or the other and I'm like, look,

1300
00:45:33,141 --> 00:45:36,471
I think from a relationship point of
view, I'm much more comfortable with a

1301
00:45:36,472 --> 00:45:40,461
fixed price because we've got a great
relationship now and what does that look

1302
00:45:40,461 --> 00:45:42,631
like in an 18-month build that's- Yeah

1303
00:45:42,682 --> 00:45:46,921
multiples of millions of dollars
if it goes over 10%, 20%?

1304
00:45:47,271 --> 00:45:48,601
I, I don't feel comfortable with that.

1305
00:45:48,612 --> 00:45:52,302
Let's be really robust with our
costings now, make sure the drawings

1306
00:45:52,581 --> 00:45:56,181
are really spot on and that we're
getting POs out to our trades really

1307
00:45:56,182 --> 00:45:59,201
early and locking everything in so
we know that the price is locked in.

1308
00:45:59,201 --> 00:46:02,121
I just don't feel comfortable,
like, just going, "You know what?

1309
00:46:02,801 --> 00:46:05,101
We've done all this work, let's just
fucking send it with a cost plus." No.

1310
00:46:05,101 --> 00:46:05,171
I

1311
00:46:05,171 --> 00:46:08,381
also think there's more money to be
made in a fixed price con- a fixed

1312
00:46:08,381 --> 00:46:09,541
price contract if you do it right.

1313
00:46:09,541 --> 00:46:09,661
Of course there

1314
00:46:09,662 --> 00:46:09,812
is.

1315
00:46:09,931 --> 00:46:10,261
Yeah.

1316
00:46:10,412 --> 00:46:10,432
Of

1317
00:46:10,432 --> 00:46:10,841
course there is.

1318
00:46:10,841 --> 00:46:13,261
I think, I think that's another
reason why building's so expensive

1319
00:46:13,871 --> 00:46:17,132
because as a builder, our risk is
so high that we have to account

1320
00:46:17,181 --> 00:46:18,322
for it somewhere along the line.

1321
00:46:18,322 --> 00:46:21,481
It's not that we're necessarily
accounting for ourself, the trades

1322
00:46:21,481 --> 00:46:25,192
are also accounting it for themselves
and then so have you got the supplier

1323
00:46:26,201 --> 00:46:29,341
putting a contingency on, then you've
got the trade putting a contingency on,

1324
00:46:31,591 --> 00:46:31,877
then you've got a builder
putting a contingency on.

1325
00:46:31,877 --> 00:46:33,121
Oh, don't, don't talk about a double down.

1326
00:46:33,121 --> 00:46:33,761
No, I know, but like- Don't talk
about a double down … but, but, but,

1327
00:46:33,761 --> 00:46:34,611
but you're never gonna- That got me

1328
00:46:34,612 --> 00:46:35,142
in trouble.

1329
00:46:35,171 --> 00:46:37,161
But you're never gonna find
out though if they are.

1330
00:46:37,252 --> 00:46:37,727
No, no, no.

1331
00:46:37,727 --> 00:46:38,961
You don't- You're never ever gonna find

1332
00:46:38,961 --> 00:46:38,981
out.

1333
00:46:38,981 --> 00:46:40,402
Can I, can I, I'm gonna
a- ask you this, Rick.

1334
00:46:40,412 --> 00:46:41,301
How can we,

1335
00:46:43,341 --> 00:46:48,906
and I don't know if we can even
answer this now, how do we- create

1336
00:46:48,906 --> 00:46:53,136
the fairest price for our clients
so the trades make money, so that

1337
00:46:53,136 --> 00:46:58,576
we make money and the client gets a
good, um, end result Builds can last.

1338
00:46:58,576 --> 00:47:00,106
Like, what's the, what's the secret sauce?

1339
00:47:00,125 --> 00:47:02,456
'Cause I don't know if it's just a
sim- I don't know if it's simple.

1340
00:47:02,456 --> 00:47:02,486
It's not.

1341
00:47:02,486 --> 00:47:02,706
It's not.

1342
00:47:02,766 --> 00:47:05,436
Like I said at the start, there's so
many different ways to do estimating.

1343
00:47:06,046 --> 00:47:07,985
There are so many different paths.

1344
00:47:08,665 --> 00:47:11,035
Um, there is no secret recipe.

1345
00:47:11,046 --> 00:47:11,066
Yeah.

1346
00:47:11,665 --> 00:47:15,655
To make construction affordable, gosh,
there's, there's so many different

1347
00:47:15,655 --> 00:47:17,265
conversations we can have about this one.

1348
00:47:17,645 --> 00:47:18,945
How does everyone make money?

1349
00:47:19,655 --> 00:47:22,476
Well, what is a fair profit to make?

1350
00:47:23,796 --> 00:47:26,025
This is the good question
because what happened, yeah.

1351
00:47:26,145 --> 00:47:28,125
Why does it cost $6 for a can of Coke now?

1352
00:47:31,168 --> 00:47:35,548
I, because we have CEOs and who
are… Everyone's on KPIs and they

1353
00:47:35,548 --> 00:47:38,308
need to show a certain revenue and
turnover and budget, so they're

1354
00:47:38,308 --> 00:47:39,768
incentivized for their own wages to go

1355
00:47:40,067 --> 00:47:43,528
up But because the cost of living's
gone up for everything, so does my

1356
00:47:43,618 --> 00:47:46,268
trade quote, so does my builder's
price and all that sort of stuff,

1357
00:47:46,268 --> 00:47:47,157
and it just flows on, flows on.

1358
00:47:47,177 --> 00:47:47,407
Yeah.

1359
00:47:47,857 --> 00:47:48,237
Yeah, yeah.

1360
00:47:48,237 --> 00:47:48,918
I know, I agree.

1361
00:47:48,918 --> 00:47:51,807
But the problem, every- everyone
wants to earn more, and a lot of-

1362
00:47:51,807 --> 00:47:56,337
Correct … people's wages are turn,
are, are based on revenue and turnover

1363
00:47:56,717 --> 00:47:58,738
and hitting a certain number and KPIs.

1364
00:47:58,747 --> 00:48:03,447
So if they don't hit it, that
they obviously sell more, but

1365
00:48:03,827 --> 00:48:06,397
then things have to go up because
everyone else, everything else will

1366
00:48:06,397 --> 00:48:07,797
just go up along the way as well.

1367
00:48:07,807 --> 00:48:11,817
So it's not just our, this is not
just our industry, it's everywhere.

1368
00:48:12,287 --> 00:48:13,237
And- I don't think there's an answer

1369
00:48:13,457 --> 00:48:13,908
No, there's not.

1370
00:48:14,098 --> 00:48:14,388
There's no answer.

1371
00:48:14,438 --> 00:48:16,948
And, and it, it, it's something-
We- … completely beyond

1372
00:48:16,948 --> 00:48:17,951
economics of my understanding.

1373
00:48:17,951 --> 00:48:21,617
So how, how do we, then, so then how
do we work really closely with our

1374
00:48:21,618 --> 00:48:26,988
trades, whether it's at step three or
whether it's at step four, to make sure

1375
00:48:27,017 --> 00:48:29,847
that they're pricing really fairly?

1376
00:48:29,857 --> 00:48:31,627
I have an answer, but
no one's gonna like it.

1377
00:48:31,727 --> 00:48:33,057
I've got an answer no
one's gonna like as well.

1378
00:48:33,067 --> 00:48:33,227
Great.

1379
00:48:33,227 --> 00:48:34,188
I wanna hear both of them.

1380
00:48:34,208 --> 00:48:38,977
So my answer is, if I'm a client,
I'm gonna give an extra 3, $4,000 and

1381
00:48:38,977 --> 00:48:41,277
go, "I want you to pay every single
one of those trades to price it."

1382
00:48:42,277 --> 00:48:42,547
Yeah.

1383
00:48:42,547 --> 00:48:42,967
Okay.

1384
00:48:42,967 --> 00:48:46,687
I go, "Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
increase my E- ECI fee, but every

1385
00:48:46,688 --> 00:48:49,897
single one of them need to be
paid, and I want a full breakdown."

1386
00:48:50,717 --> 00:48:51,087
Huh.

1387
00:48:51,507 --> 00:48:52,127
Yeah, okay.

1388
00:48:52,727 --> 00:48:53,257
Because- I don't, I don't hate that

1389
00:48:53,257 --> 00:48:55,527
… 
because, because- I'll flip you,
I'll flip you and go a different way.

1390
00:48:56,768 --> 00:48:58,647
Why do we always outsource the carpentry?

1391
00:48:59,307 --> 00:48:59,907
I don't.

1392
00:49:01,067 --> 00:49:01,587
I know you don't.

1393
00:49:01,588 --> 00:49:01,618
And,

1394
00:49:02,838 --> 00:49:03,768
um, be-

1395
00:49:03,768 --> 00:49:04,967
because- I, I, I do, I do a mixture.

1396
00:49:04,978 --> 00:49:05,573
Yeah, I, I've done a mixture.

1397
00:49:05,573 --> 00:49:05,868
I do a mixture.

1398
00:49:05,868 --> 00:49:11,171
But I, the re- the reason being is people
are expensive to hire, and I can out- Why

1399
00:49:11,171 --> 00:49:11,817
can't you employ them?

1400
00:49:12,177 --> 00:49:14,527
'Cause if I outsource it, depending
what it is because so if I

1401
00:49:14,537 --> 00:49:15,557
was- 'Cause if you employ them-

1402
00:49:15,557 --> 00:49:15,777
Yeah

1403
00:49:16,677 --> 00:49:19,798
… 
we had a little conversation
about contingency-

1404
00:49:19,908 --> 00:49:20,228
Yeah

1405
00:49:20,287 --> 00:49:23,298
… 
that goes into a trade quote,
and there's a contingency that

1406
00:49:23,298 --> 00:49:24,298
goes into the builder's quote.

1407
00:49:24,967 --> 00:49:29,197
If we employ that, aren't we stopping
the contingency going on the trade?

1408
00:49:29,197 --> 00:49:29,337
Yeah.

1409
00:49:29,337 --> 00:49:29,547
Okay.

1410
00:49:29,547 --> 00:49:30,897
So I- Yeah, I agree … I understand that.

1411
00:49:30,897 --> 00:49:31,137
Yeah.

1412
00:49:31,237 --> 00:49:33,087
But, but that, that also ra-
that- I, I do that to a plumber

1413
00:49:33,087 --> 00:49:34,052
and I can't do it to a- Okay.

1414
00:49:34,052 --> 00:49:38,868
In, in this- Yeah … in this current
climate, in our experience, where it,

1415
00:49:39,027 --> 00:49:41,578
like your pipeline is quite lumpy.

1416
00:49:41,877 --> 00:49:43,597
Like it's not as linear as it once was.

1417
00:49:43,627 --> 00:49:43,707
Okay?

1418
00:49:43,707 --> 00:49:43,852
Yeah.

1419
00:49:43,852 --> 00:49:46,787
Well, that, this job's gonna finish
here and then this one's gonna start.

1420
00:49:46,808 --> 00:49:46,848
There's

1421
00:49:46,857 --> 00:49:47,587
so much red tape.

1422
00:49:47,588 --> 00:49:47,707
We don't

1423
00:49:47,757 --> 00:49:48,192
know when the hits happening.

1424
00:49:48,192 --> 00:49:50,528
There's, there's so many variables
at the moment, which is kind of

1425
00:49:51,448 --> 00:49:53,197
dictating when a project starts.

1426
00:49:53,317 --> 00:49:56,568
As a builder, if we're employing 20
carpenters, we've still gotta hold that

1427
00:49:56,688 --> 00:49:58,948
overhead if we've got a two-week break.

1428
00:49:58,978 --> 00:50:01,067
We had a job that was six weeks
with the bank to tick it off.

1429
00:50:01,077 --> 00:50:03,767
So, so I hear what you're
saying, and I agree with you.

1430
00:50:03,767 --> 00:50:06,527
I think it's, it is more cost
effective we can bring carpent-

1431
00:50:06,597 --> 00:50:07,698
all of carpentry inside.

1432
00:50:07,698 --> 00:50:07,828
Okay,

1433
00:50:07,887 --> 00:50:09,217
carpentry's only one conversation.

1434
00:50:09,228 --> 00:50:11,908
Imagine if I could have a plasterer
and I could have a tiler, but I'd have

1435
00:50:11,908 --> 00:50:13,733
to have, I'd have to have so many-

1436
00:50:13,733 --> 00:50:13,948
Okay.

1437
00:50:13,948 --> 00:50:16,717
So then can someone who smashes…

1438
00:50:18,147 --> 00:50:18,607
Jobs

1439
00:50:18,677 --> 00:50:18,897
No.

1440
00:50:19,668 --> 00:50:22,207
He s- he smashes the vanity
and does the demolition.

1441
00:50:22,338 --> 00:50:22,478
Yeah.

1442
00:50:22,478 --> 00:50:24,957
Can that person also do the painting?

1443
00:50:27,516 --> 00:50:29,016
Can that person- No … also-

1444
00:50:30,066 --> 00:50:30,326
Yeah

1445
00:50:30,396 --> 00:50:37,046
… 
cut, so those 5.4 lengths of skirting-
Yeah … can he cut that skirting

1446
00:50:37,646 --> 00:50:40,326
because the lead guy said, "I need
this length, this length, this length"?

1447
00:50:40,326 --> 00:50:42,956
S- so, the answer- So I'm
talking about a general labour.

1448
00:50:42,965 --> 00:50:46,776
So employing a general labour to
do general tasks in construction.

1449
00:50:47,026 --> 00:50:47,346
Mm-hmm.

1450
00:50:47,366 --> 00:50:51,065
Is there enough tasks in construction-
So y- yeah … for a general?

1451
00:50:51,655 --> 00:50:52,175
Um.

1452
00:50:52,385 --> 00:50:54,641
Yeah, but I think the natural
transition from a general labourer

1453
00:50:54,641 --> 00:50:55,925
is to make them a carpenter.

1454
00:50:56,246 --> 00:50:56,616
Yeah.

1455
00:50:56,766 --> 00:50:56,916
Yeah,

1456
00:50:56,946 --> 00:50:57,610
I, I, yeah.

1457
00:50:57,610 --> 00:50:58,325
I, I hear, I hear all of it.

1458
00:50:58,395 --> 00:50:59,916
I, and this is- But are you
gonna do it as good quality?

1459
00:50:59,916 --> 00:51:02,905
'Cause it's all about repetition,
so my team don't do framing as much,

1460
00:51:02,905 --> 00:51:03,866
so they're a little bit slower.

1461
00:51:03,975 --> 00:51:05,665
Yeah, but they're- So if they're
not painting all the time…

1462
00:51:06,235 --> 00:51:10,385
Yeah, but let's not get caught up in the
bubble of your style of construction.

1463
00:51:10,385 --> 00:51:13,665
We're talking a, a broad
level of construction.

1464
00:51:13,676 --> 00:51:13,696
Yeah.

1465
00:51:13,795 --> 00:51:14,905
Like, I understand your game.

1466
00:51:14,926 --> 00:51:16,606
Your game, you can't
do what I'm proposing.

1467
00:51:16,606 --> 00:51:16,856
Yeah.

1468
00:51:17,095 --> 00:51:18,885
And this is why I think businesses-

1469
00:51:19,075 --> 00:51:20,496
So we're talking, so we're talk-
… freaking awesome … let's just talk,

1470
00:51:20,696 --> 00:51:22,196
this is volume builder spec we're talking

1471
00:51:22,566 --> 00:51:22,606
about.

1472
00:51:22,606 --> 00:51:23,896
Not, not necessarily volume builder spec.

1473
00:51:23,916 --> 00:51:29,406
Like, if we've got a renovation
in Moonee Ponds, it's just

1474
00:51:29,446 --> 00:51:31,346
a three-bedroom extension.

1475
00:51:31,355 --> 00:51:31,605
Yeah.

1476
00:51:32,126 --> 00:51:33,376
Standard spec.

1477
00:51:33,806 --> 00:51:35,675
Yeah, you could probably go to a
volume builder, but you don't wanna

1478
00:51:35,675 --> 00:51:38,725
do that 'cause you want a more of
a custom, personalised experience.

1479
00:51:39,215 --> 00:51:45,386
That builder Why can't he just employ
general contractors who is multi-skilled?

1480
00:51:45,946 --> 00:51:49,246
Because we're not taught… Th- th- this
goes back to an apprenticeship system.

1481
00:51:49,546 --> 00:51:52,025
They spit out a carpenter in three
years and they know fuck all now.

1482
00:51:52,856 --> 00:51:55,276
Like, like the reality is like
how are we now only expecting them

1483
00:51:55,276 --> 00:51:57,456
to plaster, to t- stop up- Yeah.

1484
00:51:57,456 --> 00:51:59,295
I- … to hang a tile,
to do some waterfront.

1485
00:51:59,336 --> 00:52:00,595
I agree there's certain things like-

1486
00:52:00,636 --> 00:52:02,666
But what training do we
provide as a business?

1487
00:52:03,015 --> 00:52:03,185
Zero.

1488
00:52:03,265 --> 00:52:03,896
Are we expected to

1489
00:52:03,896 --> 00:52:04,536
provide training?

1490
00:52:04,536 --> 00:52:05,505
So he, he… Okay.

1491
00:52:05,505 --> 00:52:05,535
This cappy kid.

1492
00:52:05,535 --> 00:52:09,425
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna maybe
kind of illustrate why this wouldn't work.

1493
00:52:09,425 --> 00:52:12,205
So say, uh, c- what's a carpenter costing?

1494
00:52:12,296 --> 00:52:13,706
Cost to business maybe 50 bucks an hour.

1495
00:52:14,406 --> 00:52:15,366
Like e- even if- No,

1496
00:52:15,416 --> 00:52:16,326
no, no.

1497
00:52:16,326 --> 00:52:16,956
A carpenter?

1498
00:52:17,015 --> 00:52:18,826
A cost to business at an apprentice.

1499
00:52:19,096 --> 00:52:19,715
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

1500
00:52:19,715 --> 00:52:19,745
Oh yeah, you're

1501
00:52:19,745 --> 00:52:19,865
back to- And a cost to, cost
to business- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1502
00:52:19,865 --> 00:52:19,885
50 bucks.

1503
00:52:19,885 --> 00:52:19,975
Yeah … an apprentice is
about 50 bucks an hour.

1504
00:52:23,205 --> 00:52:23,455
Yeah.

1505
00:52:23,756 --> 00:52:26,655
Cost of business for a carpenter
is maybe 70, 75 an hour.

1506
00:52:26,705 --> 00:52:26,935
Yeah.

1507
00:52:28,045 --> 00:52:33,065
You're probably gonna pay a general
labor maybe 60 bucks an hour.

1508
00:52:34,385 --> 00:52:36,245
Why not pay 80 and get better?

1509
00:52:37,065 --> 00:52:37,455
Yep.

1510
00:52:37,655 --> 00:52:40,916
Okay, I'm hearing all of this, but then
why not let… But can't make them…

1511
00:52:41,126 --> 00:52:45,565
Like what you're then talking about now
is a carpenter, or what you're talking

1512
00:52:45,565 --> 00:52:50,655
about is, uh, an apprentice who does
their carpentry with someone like us,

1513
00:52:50,896 --> 00:52:53,836
where we're doing end-to-end builds
where they're learning everything.

1514
00:52:53,845 --> 00:52:55,975
So we'll do the membrane, we would
do the- Yeah, yeah … insul-

1515
00:52:55,975 --> 00:52:56,765
we can do the insulation.

1516
00:52:56,765 --> 00:52:56,825
But that,

1517
00:52:56,925 --> 00:52:58,655
that's a completely- Yeah … your
game is different to-

1518
00:52:58,665 --> 00:52:59,165
Yeah.

1519
00:52:59,165 --> 00:53:01,486
And, and I hear what you're saying,
but I, I'm, I'm just sort of trying to

1520
00:53:01,496 --> 00:53:02,195
work out- Actually if they- I agree,

1521
00:53:02,195 --> 00:53:03,235
I agree on your side.

1522
00:53:03,235 --> 00:53:04,705
You can't have a general labor working in

1523
00:53:04,965 --> 00:53:05,055
your business.

1524
00:53:05,065 --> 00:53:07,845
No, but actually if, no, I
actually think more than… If, I

1525
00:53:07,855 --> 00:53:08,825
think it's actually the opposite.

1526
00:53:08,905 --> 00:53:12,745
I think in our way we do things, we'd
have more general labor because I

1527
00:53:12,745 --> 00:53:15,546
look at my carpenters, they can do,
technically they could probably do

1528
00:53:15,576 --> 00:53:17,206
everything concreting except screed it.

1529
00:53:17,616 --> 00:53:19,726
They could do the waterproofing if

1530
00:53:22,866 --> 00:53:23,515
they really wanted to.

1531
00:53:23,515 --> 00:53:23,675
Um, we could do the, hang the sheets if
we really wanted to in the plastering.

1532
00:53:23,675 --> 00:53:26,306
I, I guess I'm saying is what,
what, what we've got in our

1533
00:53:26,306 --> 00:53:29,180
business almost replicates the
model that you're talking about and

1534
00:53:29,180 --> 00:53:30,355
w- and building's still expensive.

1535
00:53:30,375 --> 00:53:32,505
The problem is, I think on the flip
side, if you want to go back to the

1536
00:53:32,506 --> 00:53:36,875
other home, I actually think we need
more people coming to industry being

1537
00:53:36,905 --> 00:53:39,745
specific like in America, and we've
spoken about this a number of times,

1538
00:53:39,745 --> 00:53:41,335
like you were just good at a fix.

1539
00:53:41,955 --> 00:53:42,386
That's it.

1540
00:53:42,686 --> 00:53:46,665
You can do it so efficiently, so fast,
so you, you can make so much money at a

1541
00:53:46,665 --> 00:53:48,296
less rate because you can do it so quick.

1542
00:53:48,495 --> 00:53:51,355
That's as Brad was saying the
other day, he's like, "To install

1543
00:53:51,355 --> 00:53:53,375
a door might be just $1,000.

1544
00:53:53,375 --> 00:53:56,215
If you're fucking shit and it
takes you three days, that doesn't

1545
00:53:56,215 --> 00:53:59,556
mean you charge, if your day
rate's $1,000, it's now $3,000.

1546
00:53:59,556 --> 00:54:00,815
The door is $1,000." Yeah.

1547
00:54:01,015 --> 00:54:02,645
Whether you do it in three
days or you do it in a minute.

1548
00:54:02,836 --> 00:54:03,066
Mm.

1549
00:54:03,116 --> 00:54:06,545
And I think that's the problem is if
we can have more trades like plumbing

1550
00:54:06,556 --> 00:54:10,556
that's broken up into licenses as
smaller individual things like a fix, a

1551
00:54:10,556 --> 00:54:14,706
frame, a lockup specialist, a cladding
specialist, they will get so damn quick

1552
00:54:14,706 --> 00:54:17,445
and so efficient because they have the
right tools, the right systems, the

1553
00:54:17,446 --> 00:54:19,535
right processes for what they know.

1554
00:54:20,075 --> 00:54:23,316
And it doesn't mean that you have
to have people being taught 7,

1555
00:54:23,316 --> 00:54:25,295
10, 15 years to know everything.

1556
00:54:25,306 --> 00:54:28,855
They can just know this within three to
five years and know that system well.

1557
00:54:29,455 --> 00:54:33,446
And I think then you can see repetition
very quickly because they're a lot

1558
00:54:33,446 --> 00:54:34,626
cheaper because that's their skill.

1559
00:54:35,045 --> 00:54:38,904
I got a story for you I did a estimate.

1560
00:54:39,774 --> 00:54:44,054
It was a luxury high-end
renovation, single story.

1561
00:54:44,224 --> 00:54:45,604
Monster, okay?

1562
00:54:46,764 --> 00:54:49,904
And my price came out to 2.4 mil.

1563
00:54:50,314 --> 00:54:50,994
It's a true story.

1564
00:54:52,134 --> 00:54:55,814
And I released it to the builder,
and we caught up and did a

1565
00:54:55,814 --> 00:54:56,634
Zoom call with the builder.

1566
00:54:56,743 --> 00:54:56,903
Yeah.

1567
00:54:57,643 --> 00:55:05,474
I said, "Mate, you got like," I
don't know, "15, 20 pieces of steel

1568
00:55:05,503 --> 00:55:06,563
connected to each other." When

1569
00:55:06,563 --> 00:55:09,703
was this year, what, like
was it pre-COVID, post-COVID?

1570
00:55:09,733 --> 00:55:11,133
No, no, this was three months ago.

1571
00:55:11,154 --> 00:55:11,374
Okay,

1572
00:55:11,374 --> 00:55:11,403
cool.

1573
00:55:11,413 --> 00:55:11,433
Yeah.

1574
00:55:11,443 --> 00:55:11,694
Two months.

1575
00:55:11,844 --> 00:55:12,683
Oh, maybe two months ago.

1576
00:55:12,684 --> 00:55:12,904
Yeah.

1577
00:55:13,314 --> 00:55:13,674
Okay?

1578
00:55:14,114 --> 00:55:17,983
So we've put the steel budget together,
the concrete budget- Yeah … because

1579
00:55:17,983 --> 00:55:19,884
we expected everything to be outsourced.

1580
00:55:19,884 --> 00:55:25,173
We expected the concreter to apply a
contingency because it was actually

1581
00:55:25,173 --> 00:55:29,520
quite complex, same as the steel
In the Zoom call with the builder,

1582
00:55:30,270 --> 00:55:34,509
and we're talking about how it's
gonna be built, and we're talking

1583
00:55:34,509 --> 00:55:36,140
about how his company is structured.

1584
00:55:37,489 --> 00:55:42,180
I change that price at the end of the
conversation from $2.4 million down

1585
00:55:42,180 --> 00:55:49,509
to $2 million because he employs a
group of construction workers who do

1586
00:55:49,509 --> 00:55:54,619
the demolition, who put together the
staircase, who does the structural steel,

1587
00:55:54,629 --> 00:55:59,359
the welding, the carpentry, and he does
some elements of the plastering as well.

1588
00:56:00,100 --> 00:56:06,569
That's going from 2.4 to $2 million
based on how his company works.

1589
00:56:06,569 --> 00:56:12,029
Now, this specific builder came
from a background of that lower

1590
00:56:12,029 --> 00:56:13,799
level tier construction, I think.

1591
00:56:13,859 --> 00:56:14,020
Yep.

1592
00:56:14,089 --> 00:56:17,399
And then he's applied that
to custom home building.

1593
00:56:17,739 --> 00:56:22,929
So how can we have a price at $2.4
million and then go down to two based

1594
00:56:22,930 --> 00:56:25,719
on a style of how you run your business?

1595
00:56:26,129 --> 00:56:28,959
S- I, I, and I think we're already
kind of semi doing that anyway.

1596
00:56:28,959 --> 00:56:31,569
S- so I, I'm gonna challenge that.

1597
00:56:31,609 --> 00:56:33,649
I, I, l- I understand
where you're coming from.

1598
00:56:33,659 --> 00:56:33,679
Yeah.

1599
00:56:33,750 --> 00:56:38,089
Um, however, this is all
theoretical at this point

1600
00:56:38,109 --> 00:56:39,269
because it hasn't been built yet.

1601
00:56:39,299 --> 00:56:39,559
Yep.

1602
00:56:39,819 --> 00:56:43,469
What would be great to understand
is if he signed a contract at

1603
00:56:43,739 --> 00:56:44,750
$2 million- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1604
00:56:44,750 --> 00:56:46,759
I, I know … what,
what's the, what… Okay.

1605
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:47,780
Hey, hey Is he making money?

1606
00:56:47,830 --> 00:56:48,180
All right.

1607
00:56:48,180 --> 00:56:49,687
So then let's, let's-
Yeah … try another one.

1608
00:56:49,687 --> 00:56:51,529
It's like, how's an estimator
supposed to get that right?

1609
00:56:51,689 --> 00:56:53,889
Oh f- We have such a bad
name in the industry.

1610
00:56:54,359 --> 00:56:58,509
We are dragged over the coals,
all that sort of stuff, but I've

1611
00:56:58,509 --> 00:57:01,069
just proved to you 2.4 to two.

1612
00:57:01,389 --> 00:57:03,539
Do, do you know, do you
know why I think that is?

1613
00:57:03,549 --> 00:57:03,569
No.

1614
00:57:03,819 --> 00:57:06,909
And, and, and, and I'm, and I'm probably
gonna jump to your defense here because

1615
00:57:06,970 --> 00:57:10,939
I think builders are going, "I'm so
busy I can't do my estimating, Rick.

1616
00:57:10,959 --> 00:57:14,619
Estimate my job." And then, and
then what, and then what's happening

1617
00:57:14,619 --> 00:57:17,029
is they're getting the number back
and they're going, "All right.

1618
00:57:17,029 --> 00:57:17,269
Great.

1619
00:57:17,269 --> 00:57:18,120
I'm not even gonna look at this.

1620
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:19,450
I'm just gonna give this
to the client." Yeah.

1621
00:57:19,509 --> 00:57:21,000
"Please sign the contract." Yep.

1622
00:57:21,009 --> 00:57:24,960
That's where the fucking problem
is- Oh … because the builder is

1623
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:25,140
not- That's another conversation.

1624
00:57:25,140 --> 00:57:27,609
But do you know w- No, but- Do
you understand what I'm saying?

1625
00:57:27,609 --> 00:57:27,729
I think- It's a builder,
it's a builder problem.

1626
00:57:27,729 --> 00:57:29,700
But- It's the builder's problem
because the builder should

1627
00:57:29,709 --> 00:57:31,519
still be getting your data.

1628
00:57:31,519 --> 00:57:32,849
They should be getting V2Es data.

1629
00:57:32,849 --> 00:57:37,109
They should be getting Hayden from Price
A Plan's data and critiquing it and making

1630
00:57:37,109 --> 00:57:41,049
sure that all those little fucking line
items actually work for the business.

1631
00:57:41,049 --> 00:57:42,569
So, s- s- And I think
that's what's not happening.

1632
00:57:42,579 --> 00:57:45,144
So this is good because it kinda
leads into the que- how you

1633
00:57:45,144 --> 00:57:47,419
explained, you explained to me
how estimations happened recently.

1634
00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:47,460
Mm-hmm.

1635
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,750
And how it used to happen and how you were
taught versus what it is now because I

1636
00:57:51,750 --> 00:57:55,569
was asking the question to you is, like,
I have 10 emails a week in my inbox be

1637
00:57:55,569 --> 00:57:56,949
like, "Hey, we're an estimation company."

1638
00:57:56,950 --> 00:58:00,219
"We can do your estimations for
$500." And I'm like, "How?" Because I

1639
00:58:00,239 --> 00:58:02,819
physically my own self can't do that.

1640
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:03,560
Yeah.

1641
00:58:03,599 --> 00:58:07,349
Explain how you were taught to
estimate and then how it works now

1642
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:09,939
and how, how the profitability of
an estimating company works too

1643
00:58:12,185 --> 00:58:17,745
How I was taught to estimate, I had
a really tough time understanding

1644
00:58:17,745 --> 00:58:18,866
in the early start of my career.

1645
00:58:19,875 --> 00:58:26,225
I was under the impression, and I
was taught, that inside an estimation

1646
00:58:26,225 --> 00:58:30,375
you should put the exact quantity
of bricks, the exact quantity of

1647
00:58:30,375 --> 00:58:33,486
tiles, the exact quantity of grout

1648
00:58:34,466 --> 00:58:36,365
These, and if you've got
multiple different tiles,

1649
00:58:36,475 --> 00:58:37,466
it's the exact of each one.

1650
00:58:37,466 --> 00:58:38,196
That's correct.

1651
00:58:38,235 --> 00:58:38,545
Yeah.

1652
00:58:39,595 --> 00:58:45,315
I then went on a rampage
where it was like, the best

1653
00:58:45,336 --> 00:58:46,926
estimator is the best scheduler.

1654
00:58:46,926 --> 00:58:49,215
'Cause if the guy knows how
to schedule the project-

1655
00:58:49,246 --> 00:58:49,466
Yeah

1656
00:58:50,015 --> 00:58:51,785
… 
we're gonna get the
best construction price.

1657
00:58:52,675 --> 00:58:57,495
But then after doing that myself
for a long time, let's say, I'm

1658
00:58:57,496 --> 00:59:00,625
gonna pick a time period which I
think I did this between, it was

1659
00:59:00,656 --> 00:59:03,636
2012 all the way through to 2015.

1660
00:59:03,636 --> 00:59:08,515
I used to have that approach
of, like, the exact bricks, the

1661
00:59:08,515 --> 00:59:10,006
exact linear meters of the steel.

1662
00:59:10,015 --> 00:59:14,685
Like, I would, you know, for
example, I would measure 230 bearing.

1663
00:59:15,136 --> 00:59:17,485
So if I'm putting- Yeah … a T-bar
over an opening- Yeah … right?

1664
00:59:17,946 --> 00:59:22,175
230 bearing, the exact opening,
plus the 50 mil cavity and the

1665
00:59:22,175 --> 00:59:24,675
90 mil column, and then another-
Yeah … 50 mil or 90 mil cavity-

1666
00:59:24,796 --> 00:59:26,066
Yeah … whatever, however it is, right?

1667
00:59:26,066 --> 00:59:27,675
And putting that exact linear meters in.

1668
00:59:27,805 --> 00:59:28,235
Yeah.

1669
00:59:29,135 --> 00:59:30,645
But what happened at the end-

1670
00:59:30,755 --> 00:59:32,055
That's how I actually estimate right now.

1671
00:59:33,345 --> 00:59:36,665
Legit, like I'll literally go through
every single beam and go, "That's that

1672
00:59:36,665 --> 00:59:38,196
length, that's…" But in order size too.

1673
00:59:39,516 --> 00:59:41,265
Don't, don't get me started.

1674
00:59:42,446 --> 00:59:46,416
You are not charged that way because
the steel guy will just go, like, "Eight

1675
00:59:46,416 --> 00:59:49,515
meters. Why are you going so precise?"

1676
00:59:49,885 --> 00:59:51,645
Oh, no, that's for my timber when I do my

1677
00:59:51,645 --> 00:59:51,695
timber.

1678
00:59:52,135 --> 00:59:52,215
Okay.

1679
00:59:52,705 --> 00:59:52,725
So,

1680
00:59:52,725 --> 00:59:53,015
yeah.

1681
00:59:53,015 --> 00:59:53,087
Anyway, I'm getting off topic.

1682
00:59:53,087 --> 00:59:53,116
Yeah, yeah.

1683
00:59:53,116 --> 00:59:53,506
Right?

1684
00:59:54,145 --> 00:59:59,355
So I adopted this strategy of such a
perfect estimation with quantities.

1685
01:00:00,955 --> 01:00:04,225
2015, I was doing that same
process for a custom builder.

1686
01:00:04,225 --> 01:00:08,555
Now, I believe that myself and
the business owner, we were doing

1687
01:00:08,555 --> 01:00:10,565
the best estimation possible.

1688
01:00:11,775 --> 01:00:14,475
We kept losing the estimate.

1689
01:00:14,625 --> 01:00:14,855
Yeah.

1690
01:00:14,925 --> 01:00:16,946
We kept losing on price.

1691
01:00:18,445 --> 01:00:21,876
Thinking it through a little bit
and knowing what I know now, we

1692
01:00:21,876 --> 01:00:23,355
were too true with our pricing.

1693
01:00:24,275 --> 01:00:25,215
We were too accurate.

1694
01:00:25,245 --> 01:00:29,385
We were too… There was too much
information inside the estimate, and

1695
01:00:29,385 --> 01:00:37,332
the guy who kept winning was just a
lower price Fast forward 2000, late

1696
01:00:37,352 --> 01:00:41,252
2016, I worked with a, another builder.

1697
01:00:41,452 --> 01:00:44,431
He had a very, very loose
approach to estimating.

1698
01:00:44,982 --> 01:00:45,642
Loose.

1699
01:00:47,182 --> 01:00:49,242
X square meters, just throw it in there.

1700
01:00:50,211 --> 01:00:51,041
I know a few like that.

1701
01:00:51,531 --> 01:00:51,691
I,

1702
01:00:52,461 --> 01:00:54,181
I know it sounds a little
bit silly, but I'm actually

1703
01:00:54,181 --> 01:00:55,612
adopting that process right now.

1704
01:00:56,752 --> 01:01:01,012
Um, looking at the cabinets and
just saying, "Yeah, 20 meters." And

1705
01:01:01,012 --> 01:01:05,331
then he's negotiating when he gets
into construction, like trying to

1706
01:01:05,332 --> 01:01:07,141
go, "This is my estimate budget.

1707
01:01:07,711 --> 01:01:09,531
This is, this is what
I've got to build it for.

1708
01:01:09,942 --> 01:01:11,282
Okay, here's my quotation.

1709
01:01:11,291 --> 01:01:17,881
What do I got to do to make that happen,
to make that work?" So then what I learnt

1710
01:01:17,911 --> 01:01:22,002
was there's, there's these two different
styles of strategy of estimating.

1711
01:01:22,111 --> 01:01:26,941
There is the, the Matt Kyle and 3.62
linear meters- Yeah … of a PFC steel.

1712
01:01:27,102 --> 01:01:27,332
Yeah.

1713
01:01:27,361 --> 01:01:28,942
And then there's the Rick of four meters.

1714
01:01:29,012 --> 01:01:29,262
Yeah.

1715
01:01:29,641 --> 01:01:34,011
And then it's Rick saying to the builder,
saying, "Look, just go make it work."

1716
01:01:34,972 --> 01:01:43,018
And both strategies work My problem that
I've got is, is when you be too accurate

1717
01:01:43,018 --> 01:01:45,668
and you're too refined, your price
is generally gonna possibly be more.

1718
01:01:45,718 --> 01:01:47,388
But then it could also work
in the other way round.

1719
01:01:48,448 --> 01:01:49,688
There's no right or wrong answer.

1720
01:01:50,148 --> 01:01:54,098
My, my biggest concern with the
way that you were saying before,

1721
01:01:54,098 --> 01:01:58,077
particularly around the joinery, un-
unless your joinery is a provisional

1722
01:01:58,088 --> 01:02:00,907
sum, which it might be, and that's okay.

1723
01:02:01,247 --> 01:02:05,208
But generally a lot of the time
the documentation that we're get- I

1724
01:02:05,237 --> 01:02:06,827
can only speak to our projects- Yep

1725
01:02:07,088 --> 01:02:10,767
is really dialled in, like down
to the, to the shadow lines and

1726
01:02:10,768 --> 01:02:12,218
the finger pulls and everything.

1727
01:02:12,427 --> 01:02:12,707
Yeah.

1728
01:02:12,758 --> 01:02:12,948
Like

1729
01:02:17,028 --> 01:02:17,210
that's- Soft close … you know what,
so- Yeah, like literally everything

1730
01:02:17,210 --> 01:02:20,658
… so, so w- I can't in my business
go, "Just about 20 meters worth of

1731
01:02:20,658 --> 01:02:24,108
joinery there. We're just gonna make
it work in construction," because I'm

1732
01:02:24,108 --> 01:02:26,087
signing a contract based off the plans.

1733
01:02:26,418 --> 01:02:29,927
There's like 150, 200 pages of drawings
that we have to add into a contract.

1734
01:02:29,987 --> 01:02:30,962
Yeah, so I see what you're saying.

1735
01:02:30,962 --> 01:02:31,247
Yeah, no, I get it.

1736
01:02:31,247 --> 01:02:34,271
I, I, I get it because, you know, that,
that is not a, you know- That's a spec

1737
01:02:34,271 --> 01:02:38,737
… un- that's an unusual way to… It's not
unusual way for a lot of people to do it.

1738
01:02:38,737 --> 01:02:38,947
They're,

1739
01:02:38,947 --> 01:02:40,897
they're- That's a drafty type of
plans that I have an allowance

1740
01:02:40,907 --> 01:02:41,448
that we need to make work.

1741
01:02:41,467 --> 01:02:43,257
And they're ge- and they're getting
letting gains- Yeah … during

1742
01:02:43,258 --> 01:02:44,297
construction, all that kind of stuff.

1743
01:02:44,298 --> 01:02:48,147
I understand all that, but I just don't
know when I'm thinking about our audience,

1744
01:02:48,147 --> 01:02:49,697
whether or not that strategy would work.

1745
01:02:49,698 --> 01:02:50,877
I think it needs to be accurate.

1746
01:02:51,198 --> 01:02:51,588
Yeah.

1747
01:02:51,658 --> 01:02:52,078
I agree.

1748
01:02:52,327 --> 01:02:52,567
Yeah.

1749
01:02:52,627 --> 01:02:53,137
I, I agree.

1750
01:02:53,377 --> 01:03:01,677
When I do an estimate for, for anyone who
has a very complex approach to building,

1751
01:03:02,228 --> 01:03:05,727
you can't just be, you know- Loose

1752
01:03:05,847 --> 01:03:06,687
you can't, can't just be loose.

1753
01:03:06,697 --> 01:03:06,717
Yeah.

1754
01:03:07,267 --> 01:03:10,668
But there are builders out there and
there are processes where it does work.

1755
01:03:10,668 --> 01:03:10,678
Yeah.

1756
01:03:10,678 --> 01:03:10,688
Yeah,

1757
01:03:10,688 --> 01:03:11,488
yeah, yeah.

1758
01:03:11,548 --> 01:03:11,848
Yep.

1759
01:03:11,917 --> 01:03:17,878
And I think that going back to, you know,
2015 and when I was so particular refined

1760
01:03:18,317 --> 01:03:22,247
in that particular company I was working
for, that didn't work for that builder.

1761
01:03:23,048 --> 01:03:26,907
Um, but everyone's got their own approach,
everyone's got their own style and

1762
01:03:26,908 --> 01:03:28,187
what works for them, it's what works.

1763
01:03:28,217 --> 01:03:32,067
But I truly believe just going back
to joinery, you know, when you put

1764
01:03:32,067 --> 01:03:36,208
in 1.8 linear meters of cabinets
for, I don't know, let's say the

1765
01:03:36,208 --> 01:03:38,107
laundry, you're not charged at 1.8.

1766
01:03:38,827 --> 01:03:40,817
Your cabinet maker's not gonna
charge you 1.8, he's gonna

1767
01:03:40,817 --> 01:03:42,247
charge you two, maybe even three.

1768
01:03:42,487 --> 01:03:42,677
Yeah.

1769
01:03:42,677 --> 01:03:43,977
'Cause that's the length of the carcass.

1770
01:03:44,017 --> 01:03:44,927
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1771
01:03:44,927 --> 01:03:45,187
Yep.

1772
01:03:46,550 --> 01:03:49,250
I'm- Yeah … conscious on time
too here for a second, so I'm-

1773
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:49,816
Can we rewrite out estimate four?

1774
01:03:49,816 --> 01:03:51,000
We haven't even got the estimate four.

1775
01:03:54,110 --> 01:03:56,910
No, but this is good, 'cause I kinda feel
like there's a, there's a nice rhythm

1776
01:03:56,910 --> 01:03:57,940
of the things that we're talking about.

1777
01:03:57,940 --> 01:04:00,740
Because we're, we're, we're then,
you know, diving down little rabbit

1778
01:04:00,750 --> 01:04:03,400
holes and kind of answering questions
and, and problem-solving as we go.

1779
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:07,309
So estimate four is, is
resolve documentation.

1780
01:04:07,309 --> 01:04:07,569
Final

1781
01:04:07,569 --> 01:04:08,459
construction price.

1782
01:04:08,549 --> 01:04:11,840
Yeah, and so final construction
documentation can go to contract

1783
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:14,689
and get building permits,
and its final contract price.

1784
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:18,809
And are we getting locked in trade prices?

1785
01:04:18,850 --> 01:04:19,770
Are we… Yeah, okay.

1786
01:04:19,789 --> 01:04:24,660
So there's a- estimate four is where
we're going out to trades to lock in

1787
01:04:24,660 --> 01:04:25,430
their prices.

1788
01:04:26,219 --> 01:04:27,259
I don't think there's, there's,
I don't think there's a lot of

1789
01:04:27,260 --> 01:04:29,259
estimating companies out there
doing estimate number four.

1790
01:04:29,469 --> 01:04:29,969
Yeah, that's

1791
01:04:30,030 --> 01:04:30,360
the builder.

1792
01:04:30,570 --> 01:04:31,049
So then you spoke to me about that, Matt.

1793
01:04:31,049 --> 01:04:31,239
Yeah.

1794
01:04:31,809 --> 01:04:34,409
How do I do these X tiles perfectly?

1795
01:04:34,409 --> 01:04:36,300
How do I do all those
bits and pieces perfectly?

1796
01:04:36,309 --> 01:04:37,530
Yep, yep, yep.

1797
01:04:37,629 --> 01:04:37,889
Okay.

1798
01:04:37,909 --> 01:04:40,600
And, and so 'cause you were telling me
that pretty much what happens now is

1799
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:43,470
they just drag a button, linear meters,
this spits out within that linear

1800
01:04:43,470 --> 01:04:45,069
meters is the skirting, the tiling,

1801
01:04:45,069 --> 01:04:45,334
the-

1802
01:04:45,334 --> 01:04:45,719
It's Bixonomania lines, yep.

1803
01:04:45,719 --> 01:04:45,909
Yeah.

1804
01:04:45,949 --> 01:04:51,652
Which, which is, which is, kinda goes to
the point before St- step four shouldn't

1805
01:04:51,662 --> 01:04:53,232
be called estimating, it should be costing

1806
01:04:53,332 --> 01:04:53,662
Correct.

1807
01:04:53,842 --> 01:04:54,182
Yeah.

1808
01:04:54,322 --> 01:04:54,762
Oh, I like

1809
01:04:54,762 --> 01:04:54,802
that.

1810
01:04:54,802 --> 01:04:56,442
It should even be a
different word, to be honest.

1811
01:04:56,452 --> 01:04:56,472
Yeah.

1812
01:04:56,472 --> 01:04:58,252
I don't even think… It's
not estimating, it's…

1813
01:04:59,232 --> 01:05:00,972
Step one and two are
estimating, step two is

1814
01:05:02,742 --> 01:05:03,472
costing- I'd say, I'd s-

1815
01:05:03,472 --> 01:05:04,942
three is contract pricing … no, no,
no, I'd, I'd say step one, phone call.

1816
01:05:04,951 --> 01:05:05,001
Correct.

1817
01:05:05,012 --> 01:05:06,861
Step two- Estimating … rapid estimate.

1818
01:05:06,871 --> 01:05:08,851
Step three, detailed bill of quantities.

1819
01:05:08,851 --> 01:05:09,801
That's all estimating.

1820
01:05:09,892 --> 01:05:10,092
Yeah.

1821
01:05:10,101 --> 01:05:11,262
Step four is costing.

1822
01:05:11,262 --> 01:05:11,681
That's correct.

1823
01:05:11,681 --> 01:05:12,132
Yeah, yeah.

1824
01:05:12,412 --> 01:05:15,712
I, I've built my whole
business, and businesses,

1825
01:05:16,341 --> 01:05:19,652
around step two and step three.

1826
01:05:20,921 --> 01:05:24,561
There's not much value in creating bus-
There's- We, we, we don't get involved

1827
01:05:24,571 --> 01:05:28,061
too much in step number one, and step
number four is extremely complex.

1828
01:05:28,132 --> 01:05:28,801
Yeah, I agree.

1829
01:05:28,801 --> 01:05:31,511
So I've got a question for you,
and this one really might get a lot

1830
01:05:31,512 --> 01:05:33,221
of architects wound up right now.

1831
01:05:33,781 --> 01:05:34,471
Go there.

1832
01:05:34,551 --> 01:05:34,821
No, no, no.

1833
01:05:34,821 --> 01:05:35,045
No, do it.

1834
01:05:35,045 --> 01:05:36,051
It's gonna be, it's gonna be a good one.

1835
01:05:36,211 --> 01:05:38,651
So if I have a, an architect- We've got

1836
01:05:38,652 --> 01:05:39,411
an architect, we've got an
architect coming in in two minutes

1837
01:05:39,411 --> 01:05:42,571
… 
yes, the plans, uh, that we
would get are quite detailed.

1838
01:05:42,911 --> 01:05:44,221
There's 100-plus pages.

1839
01:05:45,121 --> 01:05:46,591
Why do I need to show a trade breakdown?

1840
01:05:46,591 --> 01:05:50,851
Why can't I just go, "As per
plan, as per spec, this is

1841
01:05:50,851 --> 01:05:53,081
1.8," because I'm following it?

1842
01:05:53,091 --> 01:05:55,732
Why do I have to give how much my
mechanical ventilation is, how much

1843
01:05:55,751 --> 01:05:57,711
my tiling is, how much my caulking is?

1844
01:05:58,012 --> 01:06:00,821
Doesn't it just make sense to be
just like, "Here's a number," because

1845
01:06:00,861 --> 01:06:03,541
at the end of the day, on that
fourth estimate, it is as per plan.

1846
01:06:03,552 --> 01:06:04,002
I agree with you.

1847
01:06:04,002 --> 01:06:05,161
100% agree with you.

1848
01:06:05,291 --> 01:06:09,061
Estimate three should
have lots of- Yeah, yeah

1849
01:06:09,071 --> 01:06:09,361
… 
breakdown of

1850
01:06:09,361 --> 01:06:09,471
numbers.

1851
01:06:09,471 --> 01:06:09,533
It should

1852
01:06:09,533 --> 01:06:09,688
be, it needs a breakdown.

1853
01:06:09,688 --> 01:06:09,750
Yeah, yeah.

1854
01:06:09,750 --> 01:06:11,261
But st- estimate four should
just be like- A number

1855
01:06:11,381 --> 01:06:12,742
"This is a number as per plan."

1856
01:06:12,791 --> 01:06:13,091
Yep.

1857
01:06:13,222 --> 01:06:13,592
Correct.

1858
01:06:13,821 --> 01:06:14,081
Yep.

1859
01:06:14,211 --> 01:06:14,625
I think, yeah.

1860
01:06:14,625 --> 01:06:14,941
But this

1861
01:06:14,942 --> 01:06:17,822
is the beauty of the
construction industry.

1862
01:06:17,982 --> 01:06:19,011
If it works for you-

1863
01:06:19,141 --> 01:06:19,431
Yeah

1864
01:06:19,561 --> 01:06:20,321
… 
that's how it is.

1865
01:06:20,372 --> 01:06:24,801
If you are going to sign a contract
based on your approach, go for it.

1866
01:06:25,262 --> 01:06:25,512
Yeah.

1867
01:06:26,541 --> 01:06:27,911
We have a segment-

1868
01:06:27,951 --> 01:06:28,461
I've got one.

1869
01:06:28,951 --> 01:06:30,131
Oh, cool, 'cause I've got one too.

1870
01:06:30,131 --> 01:06:30,271
Yeah.

1871
01:06:30,271 --> 01:06:30,671
We've got two.

1872
01:06:30,671 --> 01:06:33,931
So we have a final segment
end of each episode, the MEGT

1873
01:06:33,931 --> 01:06:37,402
Mindful Moment, Australia's
leading apprenticeship experts.

1874
01:06:37,421 --> 01:06:37,681
Yep.

1875
01:06:37,751 --> 01:06:37,971
Got that

1876
01:06:37,972 --> 01:06:38,052
right?

1877
01:06:38,052 --> 01:06:38,423
Can I go first?

1878
01:06:38,423 --> 01:06:38,555
Yeah,

1879
01:06:38,555 --> 01:06:38,819
go first.

1880
01:06:38,819 --> 01:06:39,411
Can I go first?

1881
01:06:39,781 --> 01:06:41,331
You know what I love
about your story, Rick?

1882
01:06:41,341 --> 01:06:46,891
Is the, like, the, the- there's not
a, like, a linear path that you've

1883
01:06:46,921 --> 01:06:50,361
taken to get to where you are, and
I know I've done the same thing too.

1884
01:06:50,411 --> 01:06:50,611
Yeah.

1885
01:06:50,861 --> 01:06:54,381
Private school, university, traveled, and
then go, "You know what? I fucking love

1886
01:06:54,381 --> 01:06:58,961
carpentry, so I'm gonna do carpentry."
And I act- I almost feel like the

1887
01:06:58,961 --> 01:07:02,411
most successful and fulfilling jobs,
like, I don't wanna do anything else.

1888
01:07:02,622 --> 01:07:04,102
You sound like you don't
wanna do anything else.

1889
01:07:04,102 --> 01:07:05,411
Matt's got a similar story.

1890
01:07:06,232 --> 01:07:08,141
Uh, and there is a point
to this little ramble.

1891
01:07:08,562 --> 01:07:14,586
Like, I think at 16, 17, 18 years old, you
shouldn't need to know or you shouldn't

1892
01:07:14,586 --> 01:07:15,866
know what you're gonna do in life

1893
01:07:15,876 --> 01:07:16,536
You're a sponge.

1894
01:07:16,846 --> 01:07:19,236
You need to go and do
stuff and experience stuff.

1895
01:07:19,236 --> 01:07:19,266
Correct.

1896
01:07:19,266 --> 01:07:22,346
You need to go and be a brickie
for a day and, and, you know,

1897
01:07:22,346 --> 01:07:25,306
spill a, spill a bucket of bricks
and- Do you know what I mean?

1898
01:07:25,306 --> 01:07:26,936
I think, I think there is
a, there's a lesson in that.

1899
01:07:26,946 --> 01:07:30,065
Like- Yeah … I think if you're
16, 17, 18 and don't know what you

1900
01:07:30,066 --> 01:07:31,916
want to do, that is actually fine.

1901
01:07:31,916 --> 01:07:32,206
That is

1902
01:07:32,206 --> 01:07:32,555
100%

1903
01:07:32,555 --> 01:07:32,690
fine.

1904
01:07:32,690 --> 01:07:35,105
Go and pack a bag and fuck off
overseas for a year or two.

1905
01:07:35,156 --> 01:07:35,356
Yep.

1906
01:07:35,605 --> 01:07:37,246
Like, and I, and that's my mom for

1907
01:07:37,986 --> 01:07:38,166
my business.

1908
01:07:38,166 --> 01:07:39,115
I actually, I actually think
you should be, it should be law

1909
01:07:39,125 --> 01:07:40,275
once you finish high school.

1910
01:07:40,635 --> 01:07:41,286
You should have to have a

1911
01:07:42,735 --> 01:07:42,765
year.

1912
01:07:42,765 --> 01:07:43,606
You should just can't go and do-
Geez, law- laws a, law's a big word.

1913
01:07:43,685 --> 01:07:45,485
Um, and it- It's pretty aggressive.

1914
01:07:46,146 --> 01:07:50,555
So my actual mom for me question to
you, and it relates to estimating.

1915
01:07:51,015 --> 01:07:54,905
If you were to… You finish
your apprenticeship, I go out by

1916
01:07:54,905 --> 01:07:57,225
myself and I have to estimate,
but I haven't been taught.

1917
01:07:57,475 --> 01:07:58,725
Where do you start to learn?

1918
01:07:59,205 --> 01:08:02,965
What is the first thing you
would do if you were that person?

1919
01:08:02,965 --> 01:08:05,076
So I've never done it before,
what do- where do I learn?

1920
01:08:08,942 --> 01:08:09,922
fuck up and find out?

1921
01:08:10,282 --> 01:08:11,152
That, that's what we did.

1922
01:08:11,152 --> 01:08:13,732
But that's, is there a like, is there
like a resource or something like,

1923
01:08:13,932 --> 01:08:17,261
"Go watch this YouTube video," or, "Go
watch… Go, go do this course," or?

1924
01:08:19,772 --> 01:08:24,941
It's, everyone's gonna jump
on AI to ask that question.

1925
01:08:26,221 --> 01:08:27,210
Yeah, but we, there's one
thing we know- But you

1926
01:08:27,210 --> 01:08:28,732
need to c- … AI can't estimate

1927
01:08:28,732 --> 01:08:29,232
plans yet

1928
01:08:29,232 --> 01:08:29,301
you need, you need,

1929
01:08:29,301 --> 01:08:32,772
yeah, you need to, you need to
go into the trenches and learn.

1930
01:08:33,821 --> 01:08:34,011
Yeah,

1931
01:08:34,011 --> 01:08:38,311
I think that- You know, AI's a great tool,
but if you, like- It's widely known you

1932
01:08:38,741 --> 01:08:39,811
can't estimate … shit

1933
01:08:39,811 --> 01:08:40,431
data in- Yeah, yeah … shit data

1934
01:08:40,431 --> 01:08:40,522
out.

1935
01:08:40,522 --> 01:08:41,891
That's what is gonna happen.

1936
01:08:42,192 --> 01:08:42,922
That's what they would do.

1937
01:08:43,122 --> 01:08:43,631
Yeah.

1938
01:08:43,692 --> 01:08:44,022
Yeah.

1939
01:08:44,061 --> 01:08:48,502
And, uh, we've got, um, Tim Fairley
coming on the podcast soon, who- Mm

1940
01:08:48,581 --> 01:08:52,661
is big on YouTube and practically
AI and construction, and his

1941
01:08:52,661 --> 01:08:54,051
videos is like, it can't estimate.

1942
01:08:54,052 --> 01:08:54,671
It can do a lot.

1943
01:08:54,761 --> 01:08:59,182
It, it's like what I've said
today, it's there's so many

1944
01:08:59,182 --> 01:09:00,621
different ways to estimate.

1945
01:09:01,091 --> 01:09:03,751
You gotta work out what works for you.

1946
01:09:04,102 --> 01:09:05,881
You said something which I wrote down.

1947
01:09:06,071 --> 01:09:09,482
It says, "Builders should have
tools to make good decisions."

1948
01:09:09,942 --> 01:09:14,761
And I r- and I thought that, I think that
is brilliant because each step of this,

1949
01:09:15,031 --> 01:09:19,191
this four-step process, if we, that's what
we wanna call it- … is different tools.

1950
01:09:19,351 --> 01:09:19,531
Yeah.

1951
01:09:19,531 --> 01:09:21,232
And they all produce different outcomes.

1952
01:09:21,241 --> 01:09:21,261
Yeah.

1953
01:09:21,541 --> 01:09:26,002
So I think that there is a tool for all of
these different- Correct … and maybe AI,

1954
01:09:26,011 --> 01:09:32,231
i- in my opinion, and I could be wrong,
I think AI does play a part in- Step one

1955
01:09:32,232 --> 01:09:33,702
a step one or step two- Step, step
one, step, step three … maybe.

1956
01:09:33,702 --> 01:09:34,311
Step three and

1957
01:09:34,311 --> 01:09:36,462
step four, but like helping
brief in trades and stuff.

1958
01:09:36,511 --> 01:09:39,471
Step three and step four, I would
not go anywhere near AI, because

1959
01:09:39,471 --> 01:09:40,931
I think that's much more detailed.

1960
01:09:40,942 --> 01:09:41,342
That's correct.

1961
01:09:41,351 --> 01:09:41,371
Yeah.

1962
01:09:41,381 --> 01:09:41,611
You

1963
01:09:41,611 --> 01:09:42,233
gotta know how to use it.

1964
01:09:42,233 --> 01:09:42,491
You are correct.

1965
01:09:42,491 --> 01:09:46,622
So, uh, Rick, if you-
This has been a good chat.

1966
01:09:46,622 --> 01:09:46,862
Yeah.

1967
01:09:46,862 --> 01:09:47,201
I've really enjoyed this.

1968
01:09:47,201 --> 01:09:49,551
So Rick, if you wanna, if you wanna,
um, if people wanna reach out to

1969
01:09:49,552 --> 01:09:53,571
you, I, I'll be honest here, y- your
estimating online's been one of my

1970
01:09:53,571 --> 01:09:57,041
secret sauce for the past year and a
half, and I don't tell many people,

1971
01:09:57,041 --> 01:10:00,051
'cause I don't want selfishly people
wanting to, 'cause it's so fucking good.

1972
01:10:00,321 --> 01:10:02,502
Uh, 'cause I, it is such a good tool.

1973
01:10:02,831 --> 01:10:04,151
Um, how do they reach out to you?

1974
01:10:04,211 --> 01:10:05,401
Uh, estimating online.

1975
01:10:06,111 --> 01:10:10,551
Oh, look, I mean, estimateonline.com.au,
um, Instagram, LinkedIn, um-

1976
01:10:13,171 --> 01:10:14,131
It- it's honestly-

1977
01:10:14,131 --> 01:10:14,326
… 
just normal channels.

1978
01:10:14,326 --> 01:10:14,401
Yeah … i-

1979
01:10:14,482 --> 01:10:20,631
if you're doing that feasibility side
of things, um, I would highly, highly

1980
01:10:20,641 --> 01:10:26,602
recommend, I've tried a number of programs
over the years, and I'm not saying

1981
01:10:26,602 --> 01:10:28,401
this just 'cause you're here, uh- I

1982
01:10:28,412 --> 01:10:30,622
think Matt's trying to angle
for a get a free estimate here.

1983
01:10:30,662 --> 01:10:31,731
No, no, I've- I think he wants a

1984
01:10:31,731 --> 01:10:32,551
free subscription.

1985
01:10:32,581 --> 01:10:32,751
I think

1986
01:10:33,281 --> 01:10:35,471
he wants a free sub- No, I've re-
no, fuck, no, honestly, I, I feel

1987
01:10:35,471 --> 01:10:38,851
every value worth of what I pay for
it- Well, I think- … tenfold over.

1988
01:10:38,851 --> 01:10:40,551
In, in, in, in- Once
again- I'm not just saying

1989
01:10:41,321 --> 01:10:41,742
that because you're here … it's
gotta, it's gotta work for you

1990
01:10:41,751 --> 01:10:42,142
You got-

1991
01:10:42,181 --> 01:10:43,391
My, my advice is it's gotta work for you.

1992
01:10:43,391 --> 01:10:47,012
And the other advice I'll give you
is don't fucking give a VA to do it.

1993
01:10:47,901 --> 01:10:48,751
Do it yourself.

1994
01:10:48,931 --> 01:10:52,002
Or I get Rick and his team to do
it for me, because they know how

1995
01:10:52,002 --> 01:10:53,071
to use the program correctly.

1996
01:10:53,272 --> 01:10:54,771
So I, I'll just finish on that.

1997
01:10:54,931 --> 01:10:56,101
So, so, yeah, okay.

1998
01:10:56,101 --> 01:10:58,191
Well, I mean, that, that almost
started a whole another- Yeah,

1999
01:10:58,261 --> 01:10:58,432
I know

2000
01:10:58,451 --> 01:10:59,231
… 
bloody topic there.

2001
01:10:59,231 --> 01:11:00,995
You, you, yeah, you
dived in somewhere there.

2002
01:11:00,995 --> 01:11:01,451
Oh, man.

2003
01:11:01,451 --> 01:11:01,651
Yeah.

2004
01:11:01,651 --> 01:11:03,121
We, we'll get you back for
episode two for that one.

2005
01:11:03,141 --> 01:11:03,291
Hey,

2006
01:11:03,291 --> 01:11:03,451
Rick.

2007
01:11:03,451 --> 01:11:03,731
Thank

2008
01:11:03,731 --> 01:11:03,861
you.

2009
01:11:03,861 --> 01:11:03,992
Thank

2010
01:11:03,992 --> 01:11:04,082
you.

2011
01:11:04,082 --> 01:11:04,921
That's been really informative.

2012
01:11:05,442 --> 01:11:05,742
Cheers, guys.

2013
01:11:05,742 --> 01:11:05,762
Thanks, mate.

2014
01:11:05,762 --> 01:11:05,772
Cheers.