Track 1: All right, Bill, do you want me to do the intro since you're sort of just...

Track 2: Yeah. Oh, look, now it's sending all of my text messages to you,

Track 2: Evan. I tried to call you, and I'm like, why is this not happening?

Track 1: Oh, cool. That's weird. I still didn't actually get any of the ones you sent

Track 1: me. Anyway, well, we can... Yeah.

Track 3: It's the government. It's the government. They're trying to keep us from having

Track 3: an amazing podcast episode.

Track 1: They're like, hey, you guys can't talk about Paul Verhoeven and Showgirls. It's not cool of you.

Track 3: No, you can't. Sit back in your seats, get something to eat.

Track 3: Watch this movie. Don't like to see.

Track 1: Video. Thank you.

Track 1: Hello and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Evan,

Track 1: back again with another film discussion from the left.

Track 1: If you'd like to support the show for as little as $3 a month,

Track 1: you can go to Patreon forward slash Left of the Projector Pod.

Track 1: If you'd like to dress in style, we've got shirts. and at leftistprojectorpod.threadless.com

Track 1: you can grab one and show everyone you've got the best taste around wherever

Track 1: you're listening give us a rating and subscribe so you'll be notified of our

Track 1: weekly episodes that drop every Tuesday and now on to the show,

Track 1: This week on Left to the Projector, we are so excited and scared to tell you

Track 1: about the film we are here to discuss.

Track 1: No, we're good. The film in question is Paul Verhoeven's 1995 erotic drama, Showgirls.

Track 1: Its reputation at the time of release and for perhaps destroying unfairly the

Track 1: career of Elizabeth Berkley.

Track 1: Despite it crashing out at the box office, it became one of the most successful

Track 1: films in the rental and physical media, making over $100 million,

Track 1: which was double what it made in the theater.

Track 1: Our guest this week is Lily Agla, who you may know from her Instagram account.

Track 1: Thank you for being here today, Lily.

Track 3: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk about Showgirls.

Track 1: And so I guess I, well, first, if you want to share anything about your,

Track 1: you know, your platform or anything like that.

Track 1: And then my main initial question is why you chose Showgirls?

Track 3: Yeah. So my platform, I've only been online for about eight months now,

Track 3: and I've been very lucky to have grown quite a bit.

Track 3: And I mainly focus on doing like educational videos and news videos,

Track 3: moving back to the Midwest soon. So hopefully I'll get to do more in-person

Track 3: organizing once I'm over there.

Track 3: Why did I choose Showgirls? I can't wait to explain why.

Track 3: So Showgirls, cult classic, especially in the queer community. We love it.

Track 3: We eat it up, mainly because the outfits and the music and the makeup are all amazing.

Track 3: And from the list that you gave me, I've seen most of the movies that were on

Track 3: the list, but none of them kind of like touched my heart.

Track 3: And when I was trying to imagine talking about them from a Marxist perspective,

Track 3: Once I saw showgirls on there I was like I don't think there's a better Example

Track 3: Especially like as a young Woman online To dive into,

Track 3: And you were really excited to do it, too. So that's great.

Track 1: So in full disclosure, so I created this list like very early on when I made

Track 1: this podcast three plus years ago now.

Track 1: And Showgirls has been sitting on the list the entire time.

Track 1: No one has been like, yes, I'm going to talk about Showgirls or I want to.

Track 2: No, we tried to do it with Mary.

Track 1: Oh, that's right. That's true. We did try and do it with we had we had floated it to someone else.

Track 2: You're familiar with the account Revolutionary Thought?

Track 3: Yes!

Track 2: So, yeah, so I know her. That's Mary.

Track 2: So, yeah, we had floated it to, like, Evan has, like, oh, you know,

Track 2: like, I was like, we should ask Mary, and, like, Mary's the obvious choice.

Track 2: But then schedules and so on. Yeah, no offense. Which is no offense to Lily whatsoever.

Track 3: Oh, that's fine. Yeah, but they were like, no, no showgirls.

Track 2: Yeah, but.

Track 1: Well, they had never seen it, actually, so it would have been a first time watching it.

Track 1: So I'll get your take on the movie in general, Lily, in a minute.

Track 1: You had seen it before, obviously, you know the movie. But Bill,

Track 1: since you had never seen it before, I have to know what you thought of it, just as a whole.

Track 1: We don't need to spoil anything in the film yet.

Track 2: I don't want to say—listen, I don't think it's—I think that it is a movie with

Track 2: important things to talk about.

Track 2: important things to say um i thought there was

Track 2: you know like unexpected depth there

Track 2: um but i did not enjoy it it

Track 2: was not an enjoyable experience like it is not something that i would ever go

Track 2: back to at all um and i found reading about it more engaging than actually watching it it made me,

Track 2: full disclosure i started watching it

Track 2: like on the couch sitting next

Track 2: to my wife who was reading a book and i'm like this just

Track 2: makes me feel uncomfortable i don't like this

Track 2: i get it i get it like this

Track 2: i'm not enjoying not the vibe yeah yeah because i'm like this isn't like i'm

Track 2: not like watching it for any like it's work it's it's that's what it is you

Track 2: know like i'm not watching this because i'm like i'm like oh god showgirls hell

Track 2: yeah i want to watch showgirls i'm like i have a homework i own this.

Track 1: Movie on blu-ray.

Track 2: Yeah you blu-ray you wrote it on 4k blu-ray i'd.

Track 1: Seen it so oh my goodness and yeah 404 and well so part of the reason i that

Track 1: that's the case number one is that like they had re-released it and has a lot

Track 1: of i'm a big fan of like all the interviews and special features and hearing

Track 1: what people say about it from the casting and everything so i guess um,

Track 1: For people who don't know, this movie was absolutely panned even before it was released.

Track 1: Every review with the exception of, I think, one. And actually,

Track 1: Quentin Tarantino said he loved the movie, which...

Track 3: Of course.

Track 2: It's not a sign.

Track 1: No, it's not a surprise.

Track 2: That's not a ringing endorsement.

Track 1: No. But at the time, he was extremely big. Pulp Fiction had come out the year

Track 1: before. He was extremely popular. But the movie was panned.

Track 1: When it came out, no one understood it. And I think as we talk about it,

Track 1: I think we can maybe see why that is.

Track 1: I did get an interview from about eight years ago with Gina Grishon and Paul

Track 1: Verhoeven, where they sort of posited their reasons why the movie failed at the time.

Track 1: And I mean, I guess we can talk about now. So what they both said was,

Track 1: Gina Grishon said it sort of was maybe too much nudity, and it just kind of

Track 1: wasn't what people were expecting.

Track 1: And Paul Verhoeven said that sort of the movie was too, he said it was too hyperbolic.

Track 1: of the style was too over the top, which is true, which is exactly what he's going for.

Track 1: He's going for over the top dialogue, over the top acting, over the top cinematography, and all of it.

Track 1: And that was the point. It was a satire. And no one understood that,

Track 1: just like they never understood in any of his movies.

Track 1: So I don't know what you think, Lily, of like the...

Track 1: Maybe also like your history of having seen it and what do you think is like important about it?

Track 1: I know you said like you like it as far as like an important film,

Track 1: but like even going further.

Track 3: It's so interesting because, and I want to posit this to you because did you

Track 3: see it when it came out initially?

Track 3: Like, do you remember seeing it or did you wait to see it a minute after?

Track 1: So when it came out, I was 13 years old when it came out.

Track 1: I saw it a couple of years later at a friend's house.

Track 2: We weren't old enough.

Track 1: Yeah, we're old. We're both in a...

Track 2: We're old, but not that old.

Track 1: Well, but I did see it a couple years later. A friend was able to rent it from the movie store.

Track 1: Even though it was NC-17, it was a big deal. We watched it, but we were not watching it...

Track 2: The movie store.

Track 1: We weren't watching it to be entertained as far as thinking in any intellectual way.

Track 1: We were just watching because it was naughty to be able to get access to it.

Track 2: Here's my question regarding your friend renting it, though, because...

Track 1: Their dad rented it for him.

Track 2: It's irrelevant. Who rented it? It's not the bike.

Track 1: Sorry, sorry. I thought you were going to ask me how I got it.

Track 2: No. Evan, how did you break the laws of the movie rental studio store?

Track 2: Well, they did specifically make an R-rated cut for rental purposes and home video.

Track 2: So my question is, do you remember, was it the same cut as the one-

Track 1: I don't know. I feel like I remember it being a big deal to get the NC-17 version,

Track 1: but I don't know that we actually did get that.

Track 1: And I saw the full-on, like, the regular NC-17 version when I was in college.

Track 1: I remember seeing it then. And I hadn't seen—I've seen it maybe a couple times since then.

Track 1: And every time I see it, I just think that there's just more depth in it than

Track 1: people were ready for at the time. So, yeah.

Track 1: So for you, like, what do you like as far as going further into depth of it

Track 1: is sort of what makes it like an what makes it important?

Track 3: I think important now, obviously, there are very few examples of sex work,

Track 3: generally speaking, in movies and TV.

Track 3: And the few examples that there are, are obviously usually centering sex workers

Track 3: as something to be ashamed of, to be disgusted by.

Track 3: They're on the outskirts of society. And this movie does highlight all of those normal stereotypes,

Track 3: but it felt really humanizing because while you did point out that it's supposed

Track 3: to be like super hyperbolic and over-exaggerated,

Track 3: it's all very honest and true.

Track 3: Like the career path of Nomi, like that is a very normal experience.

Track 3: for for young women trying to make it you know whether that be las vegas or

Track 3: la or new york and that really hasn't changed that much in the past like 30 years yeah.

Track 1: One thing i learned in the in the special features was that paul verhoeven and

Track 1: his some of the some of the the crew including the person who wrote the script.

Track 3: They spent.

Track 1: Several months in las vegas before they started filming to like interview people

Track 1: in all of the positions of the movie to.

Track 3: Understand exactly.

Track 1: How everything worked so it's by you saying it's sort of like this is actually

Track 1: sort of what it is proves even further the accuracy of what they're portraying.

Track 3: Especially like in the mid-90s and honestly it's a really validating feeling

Track 3: to see all of that in person in an air in a movie rather because people obviously

Track 3: were like not into it like you said like it flopped and they weren't into all

Track 3: the different elements of it maybe it was like too real but i i love that part

Track 3: about it even if it is a little bit silly at times yeah.

Track 2: I mean that's like i think i the question is like why did it like i can't imagine

Track 2: like the way it is presented like there is no way a mainstream audience.

Track 3: Would.

Track 2: Take i mean first of all the fact that it's nc-17 alone like we already know

Track 2: how our ratings impact box office returns nc-17 i you you might as well have

Track 2: not released it you know like that I was going to shoot it in the foot.

Track 2: The, the audience that is going to go.

Track 2: And then on top of that, the audience is,

Track 2: That is going to go to a movie based solely on the idea of like, oh, this is NC-17.

Track 2: This is filled with, you know, sex and nudity. They're not going to go to it

Track 2: with the, you know, auteurs like, you know, like these are not people who go watch.

Track 2: God, what's that guy's name? You know, they're not the people that go to like

Track 2: a mainstream theater or like, oh, if this is a mainstream NC-17 movie,

Track 2: they're not going to go that. I'm like, oh, they're not going to dissect it.

Track 2: This is a deeply thought out satire of American society and the way sex work

Track 2: is demonized and the people within it are abused. They're not going to.

Track 2: There's validity to the movie and there's validity to the message,

Track 2: but it was set up to fail, I feel.

Track 1: Yeah, so just as a side note, so I was looking at some of the film reviews that

Track 1: came out when it was released.

Track 1: When you go to the Wikipedia page, it sometimes lists some of them.

Track 1: I went to the actual pages.

Track 1: So one of the reviews, the very first line is, Small minds may say that Showgirls,

Track 1: the first NC-17 film to get a wide release, da-da-da-da.

Track 1: So they're immediately evoking NC-17, like, you can't go see this. It's scary.

Track 1: Another one. What gets a movie, the dread, and the dreaded NC-17 rating these days?

Track 1: Normally the reasons children are forbidden to see film are explicit sex,

Track 1: blah, blah, blah. So all of the reviews weren't even willing to take the movie

Track 1: at any kind of face value.

Track 1: They're immediately saying like, oh, this is an NC-17 film. But they couldn't

Track 1: even advertise it in the same way because most media magazines,

Track 1: as most films were done back then, wouldn't even advertise for it because it was an NC-17.

Track 3: Like Bill is obviously, I think in many parts, correct. But I would actually

Track 3: argue that's kind of the beauty of cult classics. And that's like the beauty

Track 3: of getting, I love movies so much, especially older movies.

Track 3: And I, you know, I love getting to watch them like so many decades after they

Track 3: come out because they don't have the pressure of, of, of, what do you call them?

Track 3: Of reviewers anymore. You just get to enjoy them separate from the time that

Track 3: they, they were created.

Track 2: Or the commodification of it.

Track 3: Yeah. Yeah.

Track 2: In a certain way, cult movies, cult classics, they're beyond commodification

Track 2: at that point. Because it's not about what's the return.

Track 2: I agree 100%. Like, absolutely, you are totally 100% correct.

Track 2: Watching movies later on...

Track 2: after they've you know like what did we watch recently it was the same thing

Track 2: it was like it became a cool class like like years later that just and it sheds

Track 2: a lot of the the the cultural baggage and you can look at a different way honestly

Track 2: i feel like eddington is going to be like that evan.

Track 1: Yeah so gina grishon during that same interview they

Track 1: said to her you know like what what do you when you when you go

Track 1: on interview or she says whenever she goes on any interview for

Track 1: any other movie she's doing they always ask her about showgirls and

Track 1: she said that a lot of the reviewers who gave it you

Track 1: know no stars half a star when it was released now

Track 1: are interviewing her and will say oh yeah you know

Track 1: i actually watched showgirls recently and it's really good i you know they're

Track 1: so fake and i don't know that i can fully believe them or it's just it tells

Track 1: me that the generally speaking and this isn't the case across the board there's

Track 1: obviously good movie reviewers but like mainstream movie reviewers for you know

Track 1: los angeles times new york times whatever,

Track 1: they could be correct but i think they also like to go the way that's you know

Track 1: popular and they're gonna you know um you know it's it's a mainstream outlet

Track 1: so i don't know if they actually did enjoy the movie then or they just had to

Track 1: say it sucked because you know that was whatever they're supposed to.

Track 3: Do or whatever.

Track 1: But yeah i.

Track 2: Don't believe any of that.

Track 1: Listen also.

Track 2: Means all critics are bastards Yes. Like, they're all fucking liars.

Track 2: Listen, I will never get over – Evan knows this. This is my favorite – this is my Roman Empire.

Track 2: The critics' reviews –

Track 2: of the movie creator but the creator by gareth edwards like just reams of people

Track 2: deliberately misunderstanding that film and i'm like i don't trust any of you

Track 2: i don't believe any of you anything you say.

Track 1: So this this is completely maybe unrelated but maybe we can start i mean i'll

Track 1: also give like a quick just sort of overview of what happens but one thing i

Track 1: did learn in doing the in looking at this the person who wrote the screenplay

Track 1: his name is joe esterhass i looked into his Wikipedia page.

Track 1: And of course, they have a section on political views. And he describes himself

Track 1: as an independent centrist who voted for Bill Clinton, Barack Obama,

Track 1: Ross Perot, George W. Bush, and Donald Trump.

Track 1: And then it also says he's a staunch supporter of Israel, which, I mean, not surprising.

Track 3: Damn. Also, who's Perot? I've never heard that name before.

Track 1: He ran as an independent in 1992 and I think 88 and actually got like 23% of

Track 1: the vote. It was like the and ever.

Track 2: Since then they've.

Track 1: Prevented any independent from running.

Track 2: Yeah he was a billionaire millionaire no billionaire he was a billionaire um oh.

Track 3: Already at that time yeah.

Track 2: Yeah it was a big deal because like that's he just independently like funded

Track 2: this like whole like campaign that's all it was he was so we were 10 years old

Track 2: and we both remember it like because.

Track 3: It was a huge deal.

Track 2: Yeah yeah.

Track 1: He was on like the in the debate he kept making george bush Bill Clinton,

Track 1: you know, answer for the things that, you know, they should answer for.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 1: And they did. And then, you know, the people didn't like, you know,

Track 1: the Democrats, Republicans didn't like that.

Track 3: How interesting. Okay. So we got an Israeli who wrote this.

Track 1: It's just the only reason I bring it up.

Track 1: probably 90% of the movies do the people who are involved are like, you know, pro-Israel.

Track 1: But it's interesting that someone like that would make this movie and it sort

Track 1: of, in my brain, takes away from the actual message.

Track 1: Like, it seems like his opinions on things would be the opposite of what actually comes out.

Track 1: Which, I don't know if that's because of, yeah.

Track 3: Like, progressive except Palestine.

Track 1: Yeah, I guess it could be. It could be that, yeah.

Track 2: I would argue that this has less to do with that and more to do with the fact that,

Track 2: Directors have an outsized influence on the manner in which scripts are interpreted and presented.

Track 2: And Verhoeven is Verhoeven.

Track 3: That's a very good point.

Track 2: He wasn't going to take a script that was in some way more conservative and

Track 2: not turn it into something.

Track 2: He has a history of...

Track 1: Yeah, that's a good point. All of his movies are sort of satirical in nature for the most part.

Track 1: So it makes sense that he would do, take whatever he was given and turn it into,

Track 1: you know, something like this.

Track 1: So I'll give everyone just a very brief sort of synopsis of it.

Track 1: And, you know, we're not going to go through every part, but it's,

Track 1: so again, it starred Elizabeth Berkley.

Track 1: And for people from the nineties, they may remember her. She was one of the

Track 1: stars on Saved by the Bell in the early 1990s.

Track 1: And this was sort of her big first movie stepping out.

Track 1: And this was what she got. She was actually a dancer. so

Track 1: almost she had been training since she was i think three years

Track 1: old as a dancer so she was perfect for the part in

Track 1: terms of that she is sort of a hitchhiker coming to las

Track 1: vegas and she really has nothing she

Track 1: gets robbed immediately by the person who is you know bringing her into vegas

Track 1: she meets her friend named molly who ends up sort of like taking her in as a

Track 1: roommate who works at a this sort of uh at the stardust casino as a costume

Track 1: designer whereas nomi is,

Track 1: a stripper at sort of a, I guess it's sort of a high end.

Track 1: Maybe gentlemen's club.

Track 1: And it's sort of the story as her wanting to make the next step.

Track 1: And that is to become a star and to be able to be in this show.

Track 1: And so we kind of see the underbelly of Las Vegas and these different places,

Track 1: the, the, the strip club and the casino and the people behind them.

Track 1: And it's, um, you know, it's.

Track 1: And Gina Gershon is sort of the star of the show that's called Goddess.

Track 1: And, you know, as the film progresses, Nomi attempts and tries to move her way

Track 1: up to being the head of the show.

Track 1: And we'll get to maybe some of the...

Track 1: more of the end a little later, perhaps. So I don't know, because this is like

Track 1: a leftist Marxist podcast, and we're sort of trying to maybe take that perspective.

Track 1: I wonder, since Bill, you were also saying like, oh, this booby has lots of

Track 1: layers to it, but maybe for maybe for both of you too, Lillias, what do you see?

Track 1: I mean, so one of the things I thought was it's sort of the concept just of

Track 1: generally of capitalism and the idea that,

Track 1: you know, anyone can make their own way

Track 1: this individualistic sort of path make you know uh you know what is it um pick

Track 1: your yeah boots pick your up by your bootstrap do what you can do whatever it

Track 1: takes to get to you know the quote-unquote top i mean that's maybe sort of a

Track 1: oversimplification of it at all but no.

Track 3: I think you're on that you're on the nose.

Track 1: Yeah and well my first i was also thinking What do you see as Nomi symbolizing,

Track 1: like this version of American culture or something like that?

Track 3: Nomi is such an amazing stereotype. And I think actually the fact that Elizabeth

Track 3: Berkley is so beautiful only adds to her character.

Track 3: Because she is beautiful. She's perfect. She's very naive.

Track 3: And then simultaneously, as we learn about her character more, no, she's not naive.

Track 3: she knows exactly what she's doing and she's a quick learner and she'll do what

Track 3: she has to do and then we come to the end of the movie no spoilers but she decides

Track 3: to leave it would seem after she has had this huge story arc,

Track 3: but it's so interesting because I'm going to be personal here a little bit,

Track 3: maybe that's also why I like the movie so much, I moved to LA at 18 and wanted

Track 3: to do the whole acting thing and had a great time and Nomi is,

Track 3: Like so many other women specifically that are told they can move somewhere and make it.

Track 3: But the reality is that there's a sacrifice for everything.

Track 3: And that's what her whole story is. Every choice that she makes,

Track 3: you almost immediately, which maybe is part of like the kitschiness of the movie,

Track 3: you almost immediately see the backslide of the sacrifice that she is forced

Track 3: to make in order for her dream to continue to come true.

Track 3: which gets gnarly and gnarlier throughout the story.

Track 2: My like biggest issue was

Track 2: like she seemed to hate

Track 2: what she wanted to do anyway

Track 2: she always just seemed angry

Track 2: about it you set out

Track 2: to do this and it wasn't like it wasn't

Track 2: like you know it didn't feel like somebody who was like put

Track 2: into a position and they were like i have no choice but to do this it she presented

Track 2: initially as if she had chosen and was actively seeking this but then every

Track 2: time she was even when she was doing it she seemed angry about it i found her

Track 2: character incredibly unlikable yeah.

Track 3: Most people do.

Track 2: I was just like why would anyone help her she is so she's so mean to molly like right off the bat.

Track 2: I'm like, why would, why would this poor woman offer her a place? She's so mean.

Track 3: Poor Molly.

Track 2: She's so hostile. Like I want, that's, I want Molly's story.

Track 2: Like, that is the story I want. I want Molly's story because Molly seems to have, like,

Track 2: there's, there, Molly is a far more, not just sympathetic character,

Track 2: but like a, a likable character.

Track 2: Like, Molly, you want to talk, to look at, you want to see and move forward with.

Track 2: And it's like, Nomi just seems mean. and it's like why are you treating even

Track 2: like your friend like this including when she leaves and i'm like you just left.

Track 1: I have a maybe a theory well two well

Track 1: one thing well one thing is that when another reason why i think gina

Track 1: gershon also said that people struggled to like it

Track 1: was that there was no real likable characters except

Track 1: for molly but i got the sense that the

Track 1: way that nomi acted around like two other people even

Track 1: the people that are trying to help her like the other uh the

Track 1: person she meets who's going to help him uh what's his name a james who's like

Track 1: a dancer she meets at a club and is trying to help her learn how to dance and

Track 1: she could just meet him the entire time constantly over and over like rebuffing

Track 1: him uh rebuking him or which is the word i meant rebuffing that's the one i

Track 1: meant and it seemed to me that she wanted to do everything,

Track 1: on her own she didn't want help from anyone and

Track 1: i think that reinforces the idea that the movie is very much this sort of capitalist

Track 1: you know uh just where you i mean you just want to step on the people around

Track 1: you but don't want their help to do it you you want to get there on your own

Track 1: but i i agree she is yeah and.

Track 3: The irony is of course she had she had to rely on everyone.

Track 1: To get exactly like.

Track 3: She couldn't do anything on her.

Track 2: Own but also like james is also a shitty person too.

Track 1: Yeah james.

Track 2: Is not a.

Track 3: Good guy either which is the whole thing.

Track 2: He's also not yeah she wants to do it alone but like also she's right like he's

Track 2: clearly like seeking to prey on her right off the bat he sees a beautiful woman

Track 2: who dances apparently well,

Track 2: I hate, I literally, my wife turns to me and she's like, do you find this like sexy?

Track 2: And I was like, no, she looks angry every, like I genuinely like,

Track 2: I like, but I like, like, you know, like, I think it's beautiful.

Track 2: I'm like, she just seems angry. Like, I don't want to watch,

Track 2: I feel, I don't want to watch this.

Track 2: I'm like, she's angry. She wants to dance, but also hates everyone for wanting,

Track 2: which at the same time is indicative of the way in which society rewards,

Track 2: and by rewards I mean that in the most sarcastic, contrary way,

Track 2: rewards beauty by preying on it.

Track 2: And it's like, I understand why someone would respond aggressively in response to that, but...

Track 2: But being on the brunt of it for two hours is not incredibly pleasant.

Track 1: So Bill said that Nomi is unlikable and that's kind of the common perception.

Track 1: Do you see it differently?

Track 3: I don't dislike Nomi any more than I dislike any of the other characters.

Track 1: Fair.

Track 3: I think, yeah. Molly, with the

Track 3: exception of Molly, because Molly didn't do anything wrong the whole time.

Track 3: No. Like Molly gets the worst end of the stick and she's great.

Track 3: But yeah, but they're all these like these people who fend for themselves,

Track 3: just like you said, incredibly individualistic.

Track 3: And it's not even just that Nomi's being preyed upon.

Track 3: They're all preying on one another, you know, for their own selfish desires.

Track 3: Yeah. So I can't blame Nomi, nor do I like really hate that she's upset.

Track 3: Because I'm like, honestly, even if this is her dream, going through your dream

Track 3: and then realizing, like, fuck, I have to be assaulted and preyed upon at every

Track 3: corner to get what I want. Okay, I guess.

Track 3: Yeah, it's just she's layered. She's complicated.

Track 1: All the people in the performance, once Nomi gets sort of the audition and is

Track 1: able to be in the show as sort of a side dancer, that's not actually the right

Track 1: word, just in the ensemble cast.

Track 2: Backup dancer.

Track 1: Yeah, backup dancer, ensemble. All of the other people working as other dancers

Track 1: all seem to hate each other and will just step on each other at any chance they get.

Track 3: Yep.

Track 1: And I think that just deepens the message there.

Track 2: I have never been to Las Vegas. I cannot.

Track 3: You're good.

Track 2: I.

Track 2: Listen, Lily, I got to be honest with you.

Track 2: There has never been a place I wanted to go to less.

Track 3: Right?

Track 2: I am built, number one, for the cold. Number two, I do not gamble.

Track 2: There is nothing about Las Vegas to me that is appealing in any way, shape, or form.

Track 2: And watching this movie, I was like, and then Evan's like, they spent six months

Track 2: making sure Las Vegas is, I'm like, okay, yeah. Most of this movie tells me

Track 2: is Las Vegas is the worst place on the fucking planet.

Track 2: Like, bar none.

Track 2: But from a serious perspective, to me, in many ways, Las Vegas is very much the – it is the.

Track 2: It is the distillation of American capital and American society.

Track 2: And that is what this entire movie was, which for me,

Track 2: part, part of it was like, part of it was why I found, because I don't particularly

Track 2: like watching things where I'm like, I, I know America is the worst place.

Track 2: I know capitalism is fucking horrible. Like I know these things.

Track 2: It's like when, when the handmaid's tale came

Track 2: out and everyone was like oh you gotta watch bill like you're a leftist you

Track 2: gotta watch him i'm like i already know this place sucks i

Track 2: don't need to watch a show about it like that's what it felt like

Track 2: you don't need validation through like a really depressing movie or

Track 2: season exactly exactly 100

Track 2: that's what it felt like i don't need to watch and then

Track 2: and then on top of that have like you know just gratuitous

Track 2: just sex and nudity which seemed to me to be mostly just for I mean I don't

Track 2: know if shock value is like or just like it didn't add anything positive to it to me it just it just,

Track 2: took it even further.

Track 1: I have another thought but go ahead share.

Track 3: Your thought first i'm curious.

Track 1: No no no all right so i was going to say is well it's sort

Track 1: of tendential to that so what i was going to say was that you were saying bill

Track 1: like how the there's all this gratuitous there's sex and nudity and all of the

Track 1: dancing and and all this film and like why do it you know what's the kind of

Track 1: maybe the point of it and i think to me the point is that typically when you

Track 1: see movies about Las Vegas. I think of movies.

Track 2: I'll give you that.

Track 3: Casino.

Track 1: Casino. That's exactly where I was going to go for. You see the violence on the other side.

Track 1: You see the violence of the people that own the casinos and what it takes to

Track 1: continue to prey on rich people, the people that are trying to get in their

Track 1: way to take away their casino, all of the wealthy capitalists at the top.

Track 1: I mean, you do see a little bit of that with the people who own and

Track 1: run the show but you don't really see the tippity

Track 1: top and so i think this is i think i said before the underbelly of what's going

Track 1: on vegas but you never see and i think that's what verhoeven was trying to show

Track 1: us that you don't get and it's very easily easy to see it and say like man this

Track 1: is too much but i think it's enough you're right you're.

Track 2: Right you are you are 100% correct

Track 2: you are absolutely correct that is that is that is a valid point and.

Track 1: I see what you're saying i understand i totally understand

Track 1: it's like gratuitous in some you know at

Track 1: moments but you know especially the way that the

Track 1: the runners of the show speak to the women when they're out like when nomi does

Track 1: her audition and they're like they take off their tops and they're like critiquing

Track 1: everything about these all you your nose looks good but your ears yeah like

Track 1: you need to fix those ears and

Track 1: you know the people just sort of walk away and it's just cruelty on top.

Track 2: Here was my, this is what my issue with it was.

Track 2: I don't know anything about Vegas.

Track 2: So like, to me, I'm like, the way it's presented is presented so over the top

Track 2: and presented is so gratuitous.

Track 2: So like, is this satire of Vegas?

Track 2: Or is this an honest condemnation of the reality of Vegas?

Track 2: And without knowing those things, once I knew those things, once I was given

Track 2: background information, then it read differently.

Track 2: But not knowing that, it's lost on me.

Track 2: As a person that lives on the East Coast, has never been to Vegas,

Track 2: has no desire to go to Vegas, and is not in any way, shape, or form a part of

Track 2: that world, that specific world of Vegas.

Track 2: To me, when you present it that way, it comes off as you're making – there's no way.

Track 2: I don't know what you're saying here because I can't tell because I live –,

Track 2: You know, I have a completely different.

Track 1: Do you think clearly that it could be both things that could be both an over the top satire.

Track 3: But I was going to say that. Okay.

Track 1: Sorry. Sorry. Damn it.

Track 3: No, I know you said you read my mind.

Track 1: Okay. I was.

Track 3: No, you deserve the credit because you put the words to it. Yeah. I was going to say that.

Track 3: Do you know what I think is so interesting? And this is the best part about

Track 3: dissecting art, especially when we all do such different perspectives is both

Track 3: things are true because they're true to somebody.

Track 3: i actually would argue it wasn't satirical enough

Track 3: in nature and i think you know what i mean like it is really over the top but

Track 3: it's not over the top like in a way that um i don't know like to wong fu what

Track 3: is that to wong fu with love or something i forget the title of that movie but

Track 3: it's one of my favorites um i just always forget it because it's long even.

Track 2: Even like thanks for everything.

Track 3: Julian yes yes it is even.

Track 1: Just going off of other films by verhoeven like Starship Troopers is like this fascist satire that.

Track 3: Also people didn't get.

Track 1: That's like my Roman Empire.

Track 3: Satire is really hard for a big audience, I think, is the other thing,

Track 3: too. Because what is satirical is different for every person, right?

Track 2: Starship Troopers is baby step satire. That is not a failing of Verhoeven.

Track 2: That is a complete and utter failure.

Track 1: An education on the audience.

Track 2: Indicator of how abysmal media literacy is in America, or more to the point,

Track 2: how successful the state has been at destroying media literacy and making it.

Track 2: So that the average viewer cannot recognize fascism.

Track 3: Very fair.

Track 2: Because Starship Troopers, I'm sorry, man.

Track 1: I know. But it is true.

Track 3: People don't get irony. And they don't get satire.

Track 3: No. Like most people are not looking for that unless they're explicitly told to, I feel like.

Track 2: There is a child in a military uniform saying, I'm doing my part.

Track 2: it doesn't get it's barely.

Track 3: Satire i know i i got you i got you.

Track 1: So slightly shifting like the like the a question that i'm thinking of is so

Track 1: i saw i was reading some articles and what people said sort of about the movie

Track 1: and one of the things i saw was that despite the fact that the movie is,

Track 1: nudity and the show which probably you

Track 1: know it gets a large audience you know men and women but might be perceived

Track 1: as sort of like the male gaze what i also saw was some people saying that the

Track 1: film is actually for more of like for the female gaze and i don't know that

Track 1: i'm nothing that i disagree but i don't know what's that whether.

Track 2: You're equipped to make.

Track 1: That yeah so yeah that's exactly right and so i's funny i and the reason i like

Track 1: one of the scenes in particular Well, every time that Gina Grishon's character,

Track 1: when she first meets Nomi,

Track 1: and they see each other several other times, like in the club when they go to

Track 1: see her, and then she forces her, it's Zach, you know, not her boyfriend,

Track 1: like her friend or whatever,

Track 1: you know, to business partner to then get a lap dance from her.

Track 1: That lap dance was not for him. That lap dance was for Gina Grishon's character.

Track 1: and so that was that's like a scene that they point to as sort of like this

Track 1: is this female gaze and also sort of this unspoken maybe love that she has for

Track 1: Nomi that she can't express in any real way what.

Track 2: About the relationship between Nomi and Molly which like there is a lot,

Track 2: There was a lot of romantic sexual tension between them.

Track 1: There was.

Track 2: Earnest romantic tension between them. That is one thing about this movie.

Track 2: And tell me if I'm wrong. But I found it incredibly, not progressive for the time,

Track 2: but egalitarian in terms of the way in which it presented the notion of romanticism.

Track 2: and sexual intimacy it did it did not draw lines between genders like you know

Track 2: people are people and they love each other.

Track 1: Yeah to.

Track 2: Me the way it read it felt so non-judgmental in terms of anything like that.

Track 3: Yeah that's my favorite parts of it because everyone everyone is equal just

Track 3: like you're saying not only in their sexuality and their feelings towards one

Track 3: another but also the negative actions they take against one another you know what do you think i.

Track 1: See your pensive look well i was gonna i mean that's that's

Track 1: true because the like the way that the actions that know

Track 1: me and crystal take towards each other you would

Track 1: think i mean they they do say like in several times that they hate each other

Track 1: but then there's moments when they like when they're having you know having

Track 1: lunch and other times where you also can see this sexual tension that's unfulfilled

Track 1: from either of them where they both want to sort of they want something from

Track 1: each other but neither of them is willing to say it.

Track 3: Yeah, most of their relationship is subtext.

Track 1: Yes.

Track 3: Even the overt parts, right? I think my favorite conversation between them is

Track 3: towards the middle when they're going out to eat together, they're getting lunch,

Track 3: and Crystal is telling Nomi, you're already a whore.

Track 3: And Nomi's like, no, I'm not. I'll never be you. And then, of course,

Track 3: she literally becomes Crystal. But-

Track 3: They have such a very interesting relationship, and there's so much hate,

Track 3: but they're so jealous of each other.

Track 3: They literally want to become one another.

Track 3: Crystal wants what Nomi has, and Nomi wants what Crystal has.

Track 3: But not in a way that's usual, where it's like, these are women and they hate

Track 3: each other because one's higher than the other, and now they've got to fight

Track 3: it out. You know? It is layered.

Track 1: Yeah. You know, I never considered that Crystal wants what Nomi has.

Track 3: Oh, yes. She's aging out.

Track 1: Yeah. But when you say she wants what she has, it's sort of just like to be

Track 1: out of the spotlight or to maybe

Track 1: have, just to kind of live her life in a normal way. She wants her redo.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 2: Yeah. She wants her vitality. She wants her youth.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 1: Yeah. No, yeah. That's, I see that.

Track 2: It's not to like, I feel like saying she wants what she has,

Track 2: it's like a weird parsing, but like it's you know it's like she's losing you

Track 2: know she's losing something and know me it's not so much that crystal wants what,

Track 2: what Nomi has so much as Nomi has what Crystal wants. Does that make sense?

Track 1: It's like the plot, have you seen, both of you seen The Substance?

Track 1: Yes. Sort of like Demi Moore sort of wants to have the, you know,

Track 1: the young body and the young, you know, life that she's, you know,

Track 1: she may be seeing the ring on the wall that they're gonna,

Track 1: you know, they keep promoting Nomi because of Crystal, but at the same time,

Track 1: the people who run these shows realize like, oh, this woman,

Track 1: she's gonna be 30 or whatever.

Track 1: We've got to get her out of here. how old she is yeah you know i don't know how.

Track 2: She's probably 25 something like that is a wild like every time i learn about

Track 2: how like how every time i see anything involving like any like any dancers and

Track 2: stuff and they're like yeah or like athletes too you know yeah models they're

Track 2: like yeah models and it's like jesus christ that's.

Track 1: Actually older than i thought.

Track 3: There you go.

Track 2: It really does like there is so much of

Track 2: it that is just about like you said before lilia

Track 2: how like everyone is just they're just preying on

Track 2: each other and it's just an entire and

Track 2: also like the the idea and i

Track 2: think that this is an interesting thing how

Track 2: you said about like oh you know like i'll never be you i'm not

Track 2: a whore um and i

Track 2: think that's a really interesting um when

Track 2: you look at it from the perspective of the the argument that

Track 2: we've we've all seen the discourse about online

Track 2: especially about you know sex work

Track 2: is work yes and the way in which

Track 2: people weaponize um sex

Track 2: work and how they misunderstand it and miss appropriate it and and you know

Track 2: abuse the whole thing you know and it really like to me like that it speaks

Track 2: to like the way so many people who are like you know like sex worker exclusionary people,

Track 2: you know, like leftists who deny the validity and, you know.

Track 2: People who talk, it's like, and they react so Vita, like, I'll never be you.

Track 2: And it's like, you are selling your body.

Track 2: Like what you do not understand, like you are deliberately, and you are coming

Track 2: at this from an angle of hostility and aggression because it makes you angry

Track 2: and it offends your sensibilities and it makes you uncomfortable.

Track 2: But the fact of the matter is, is that you are

Track 2: also selling your body in a different way and all

Track 2: they are asking for is that they be acknowledged

Track 2: in the same way and you are denying that yeah too much it's go ahead sorry and

Track 2: it's just like the way she responds it's like from us from a marxist perspective

Track 2: it is so subtextual like you know to like to like see it from that angle yeah and.

Track 3: Of course you find out later on in the movie which was like inevitable that

Track 3: she did that growing up to survive. And she was a street sex worker and had

Track 3: no other choice and was a survival sex worker.

Track 3: And yeah, well, that was the other reason I was so excited to watch it because

Track 3: Crystal's response is perfect, which is like, you already are a whore.

Track 3: You already have sold out.

Track 3: You don't have a choice. And I'm using whore to quote them. I don't generally

Track 3: use that word, but the visceralness is like purposeful, right?

Track 3: Because what makes them different they're not different and that's okay there's

Track 3: nothing wrong with that yeah i.

Track 1: Think a lot of the recent sort of uh positive not press but positive reviews

Track 1: and people kind of reassessing the movie is how well it depicts the nature of

Track 1: sex work because i think you're saying at the beginning like most movies don't show it,

Track 1: in this way at all you know i think no the only

Track 1: other movie actually i was thinking about which came out the same year

Track 1: as this is leaving las vegas where they kind

Track 1: of show in a in a similar way but

Track 1: through you know also the eyes of nicholas cage

Track 1: who's also uh the the drunkest most alcoholic person

Track 1: in the history of movies if you've seen that he's just it's crazy but you don't

Track 1: usually get to see that shown in really any movies and i think for people in

Track 1: 1995 they were just could not handle that they could not handle this story let's.

Track 2: Look at it from the perspective of what's happened like in the 90s like i mean

Track 2: they were shaming monica lewinski.

Track 1: Like to their last breath exactly they could not.

Track 2: Handle anything there was no way like like you said before lily like as a cult

Track 2: classic like this seeing this divorce of that time like it changes the perspective completely.

Track 2: I have, like, there are things that I do not, that I did not particularly enjoy

Track 2: about this movie, but, like, it is a valid and important, it has a lot of important

Track 2: things to say, and, like, it really is,

Track 2: When you really think about the time that it came out, it is not shocking that it failed.

Track 3: No, not at all.

Track 1: One of the reviews I saw said that the movie needed more humor.

Track 1: And the only joke that they have that they use is sort of when Nomi doesn't

Track 1: know how Versace is pronounced.

Track 3: Versace.

Track 1: Versace.

Track 2: Which I think is really funny because they clearly draw comparisons between

Track 2: Crystal and Crystal, but they don't say Crystal correct either.

Track 2: Like, they clearly, they're saying she's named after the shit.

Track 2: Oh yeah, she's like, oh, this is why I chose my name.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 2: Yeah, but they're not saying that right.

Track 3: I think honestly though, Kyle McLaughlin's character, his entire character is funny.

Track 3: Like, I think he's fine. Like, that works for me. He was such a dork.

Track 1: He works perfectly as sort of the sleazy executive that has,

Track 1: like he's driving like a Lamborghini or Ferrari or something.

Track 1: He's got a massive house, this gigantic pool, and he has what he wants and really

Track 1: just all, he's also kind of doing the same thing.

Track 1: He's sort of trading in, you know, Crystal for like the newer,

Track 1: younger model, literally, you know, and I think he also said when she goes to

Track 1: her house the first time when Nomi goes there, when he opens the champagne, doesn't he have to go?

Track 1: actually make that joke too bill like he says oh yeah i like crystal crystal

Track 1: you know the champagne and yes he's he was great okay too he.

Track 3: Was so good and his hair was so good his little bang.

Track 2: His hair was yeah.

Track 1: I saw someone say that the movie is somehow in the twin peaks universe where

Track 1: like this is like the alternate version of that's cute i mean probably now this is a joke.

Track 2: Hypothetically this is this is what okay i want to know especially like i your

Track 2: thoughts both of your thoughts on specifically the characters of henrietta and al right.

Track 1: We don't get.

Track 3: Enough of them.

Track 1: You think the The woman at the strip club and then the boss of the strip club.

Track 2: The boss, right? Which at first, he comes off as a complete and utter scumbag.

Track 2: But when he visits her, after she has gone and she is now performing at the

Track 2: other, at Stardust. At Stardust, right?

Track 1: Yeah, he's sweet to her.

Track 3: Very.

Track 2: Right.

Track 1: He's proud.

Track 2: Completely different perspective, but not just proud. He comes off,

Track 2: I thought he came off almost as protective and afraid of what was going to happen.

Track 3: Yes. Yes.

Track 2: And I found that fascinating.

Track 1: You go first of all, you say.

Track 3: Yeah. It's very interesting because while working at the Cheetah,

Track 3: of course, she's preyed upon, but she seems more in control there.

Track 3: like everyone there they do look

Track 3: out for one another even though eventually one of her co-workers that

Track 3: she helped set up ends up getting with uh with james

Track 3: is that his name yeah the yeah yeah but at the

Track 3: same time like you know you're in this small strip club you're

Track 3: all just trying to make it her like house mother

Track 3: henrietta genuinely loves her and cares about her and al is creepy but i think

Track 3: that there is a real difference when she's moving up in the ladder inevitably

Track 3: incredibly the sacrifices grow larger and they all know that because they live

Track 3: there and they've probably seen it happen is i guess the the implied thing right well.

Track 1: I think the same i saw al when he's working i mean he's crude to them he's not

Track 1: particularly nice but he is almost like i hate to say the term father figure

Track 1: but in a way he is like a protector of them he protects them.

Track 3: But in.

Track 1: A way you could say maybe he's protecting them because it's his way for revenue.

Track 1: It's his, you know, it's his workforce, but at the same time,

Track 1: he does seem to genuinely, uh,

Track 1: care about them and it's almost like she went from a small business where

Track 1: they sort of are a quote-unquote family to this giant

Track 1: corporation where there are a family in bigger air quotes you know or like they

Track 1: care about this person and then it's just you you have no protection just a

Track 1: way that hr doesn't care about you at your job they're protecting them al is

Track 1: worried that she doesn't have anyone that looks out for her and she doesn't

Track 1: like molly can't watch out for.

Track 2: To me it felt very much like a class dynamic and very much in the perspective

Track 2: of when she was at the cheetah, she was in,

Track 2: she was participating in.

Track 2: And she was a part of a community that was of the same class as her.

Track 2: And everybody was on the same level.

Track 2: Even Al, even as Al was like the owner and he was the boss, there was,

Track 2: because they were of the same class, there was like an upper limit that he would even do.

Track 2: Whereas when he saw her, when she left and she was just,

Track 2: she was now putting herself in harm's way because she was putting herself amongst

Track 2: people who don't have any lines they will not cause.

Track 2: they have no limits and that

Track 2: she is not seen in any way shape or

Track 2: form as an equal amongst anybody that everybody

Track 2: there on her level is a

Track 2: victim but also has to like crabs

Track 2: in a bucket and the only person outside

Track 2: of that bucket is the person who's going to take you out and put you in

Track 2: the pot that's it whereas like in the

Track 2: cheetah you know it's like it felt very much like you know what in the cheetah

Track 2: if she fought back there would be like a certain and it was she gave him shit

Track 2: and she didn't show up one day she's late right she gave him shit she and he

Track 2: gave her shit back but it was like almost like implied like.

Track 2: You only go so far. You only do so much. You don't push another person down a flight of stairs.

Track 3: And then have the person who injured your other dancer cover for you because you covered for her.

Track 3: That was crazy.

Track 2: No, you don't know what you're getting yourself into.

Track 2: Like, you know what? I may be the boss here and we may not be rich,

Track 2: but you know what? At least we're not fucking bourgeois.

Track 2: At least we're not fucking scumbags. We are scumbags, but we're not that kind of scumbag.

Track 2: We have limits. You know, it's like he, like the way he looked at it was very,

Track 2: it came to me, it read to me very much like, you don't know what you got yourself

Track 2: into. These people are dangerous.

Track 2: They're dangerous in a whole other way. And it's because they don't see you.

Track 2: But you know what? He might be a scumbag and he might be like,

Track 2: like he still sees them as people.

Track 2: And it's like, these people don't even see you as people. They're,

Track 2: you're not even a person to them.

Track 1: You're just a human. You're a, you're a, you're meat for the, for their show. what.

Track 3: Do you think evan.

Track 1: I mean i think that makes perfect sense and

Track 1: to even top it off in in the in the like another

Track 1: thing that happens while nomi is working there is

Track 1: she gets sort of quote unquote selected or picked

Track 1: by crystal to go to this what is it

Track 1: a boat show and essentially be you know she's

Track 1: basically going on has to be like a call girl for the

Track 1: night or some you know rich businessman in

Track 1: or whatever and she does get ends up getting saved because she's

Track 1: a strong enough person where she was able to refuse which i think most of them

Track 1: wouldn't be able to do it and maybe she's able to do that because of her her

Track 1: past experience which we only know kind of a little bit about where she's you

Track 1: know gone out of prison and you know been on the street and all of that so yeah yeah i i.

Track 2: I thought that was such a, it was such a unexpected flip around.

Track 1: What do you make of Nomi? Not Nomi. What do you make of Crystal being the one

Track 1: that sort of sends her off to do this and completely knowing what was going to happen?

Track 3: I think she's putting her in her place. And I think, um, cause Crystal does

Track 3: that several times to her, uh, puts her back where she wants her to be.

Track 3: You know, she can only get so close to the spotlight and then she has to rip

Track 3: her back into, into reality.

Track 3: But, uh, it's like a rite of passage. I mean, we can assume that Crystal's done

Track 3: everything that Nomi's going through.

Track 3: And so she doesn't want her to be allowed to skip ahead without being forced.

Track 1: It's like hazing.

Track 3: Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly.

Track 2: Wait, you want your student loans forgiven? I had to pay them. Fuck you.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 2: Yeah, no. No, you can't get anywhere without, like, you have to eat shit just like I did.

Track 1: One of the things we didn't talk about, I mean, we talked about how Molly is

Track 1: sort of the nicest person through this.

Track 1: but unfortunately it doesn't she

Track 1: gets we don't need to describe that i mean if you see if you

Track 1: if you do watch this movie especially the nc 17 version

Track 1: there's definitely fucking it's disgusting there's some disgusting you know

Track 1: definitely um trigger warning for anyone to watch it just in general i don't

Track 1: think we've touched maybe i'll add that at the beginning too although we haven't

Track 1: gone to in detail but one thing that we that that brings that class thing in

Track 1: further is that We don't really,

Track 1: we see Crystal as sort of a celebrity locally, like in Vegas within the show,

Track 1: and they sort of have local media covering her.

Track 1: But then we see sort of the sort of a big musician that Molly is a fan of comes

Track 1: to town and through this network of the sort of upper class bourgeois capitalist

Track 1: casino, she's able to meet him.

Track 1: And I think a lot of people criticize this part of the movie,

Track 1: and it is terrible to watch, but I think it's important only because it shows...

Track 1: many people have to go through and have experience to try and make it in vegas

Track 1: or in hollywood and i don't know do.

Track 3: You think molly being the one that was assaulted was

Track 3: uh did he know what he was doing or was that also supposed to be satire and

Track 3: irony because of course she's like the best friend and she happens to be black

Track 3: and then she has to literally suffer at every single point in the story like

Track 3: it does the director realize what he's doing i'm curious what you guys think i.

Track 1: I would actually probably say that that's it's kind of messed up in that to

Track 1: make her a person of color and then experience the worst of anyone in the movie

Track 1: it probably you i would argue that's not satire or if it is it's bad satire and it's i.

Track 2: Don't think it's satire.

Track 1: No i know i know i mean.

Track 3: Which makes it even worse right but that's the that's what you get with The

Track 3: 30-year-old movie, I guess. I don't know.

Track 2: Well, I don't think it's satire. I

Track 2: think he was being honest and he was showing the actual – I think the people

Track 2: that complain that that was too much are being too precious about their own

Track 2: feelings and they're being disingenuous about the reality of things. Because you know what?

Track 2: I don't know that, like, you know, I don't know what happens in Vegas.

Track 2: I don't know what happens you know in like you know LA or anything like that

Track 2: in terms of like you know like the shows and all this shit like I don't know

Track 2: any of that but you know what I do know I do know that black women in America,

Track 2: are one of the most commonly subjected, you know, groups.

Track 3: Yeah, to violence.

Track 2: One of the groups most commonly subjected to sexual violence. I do know that.

Track 2: And then if you're going to tell me that like, oh, he shouldn't have showed

Track 2: that, you know what that tells me?

Track 2: You don't want to see because you don't want to confront that reality.

Track 2: And that's the reality of the situation. And I don't think we need to,

Track 2: this is like how I don't believe in, you know, you know, like posting stories that trigger warnings.

Track 2: listen there's a fucking genocide going

Track 2: on we got people fucking being murdered in the streets

Track 2: by you know fucking you you you gotta

Track 2: see some shit you gotta wake the fuck up you gotta grow up and

Track 2: you know what if you can't this is a movie you

Track 2: know you have a remove this is at least acknowledged as fiction and if you can't

Track 2: handle that you're gonna have to start because this is what's happening to that

Track 2: this is what's happening to real people in real time world yeah by people like that that.

Track 3: You also praise and glorify and pedestal.

Track 2: Exactly what.

Track 3: Do you think evan.

Track 1: Yeah i mean i mean when i said that it was like good that he included them i

Track 1: don't maybe that came off as that maybe i didn't want to come off in the same

Track 1: like i'm glad that they put this you know horrific.

Track 2: Thing in but i don't think anyone thought you meant that i know i.

Track 1: Know but i'm just gonna say you're just being careful and appreciative it's

Track 1: okay yeah but i i i I'm sort of torn because in a way, the way that Verhoeven

Track 1: is including the scene is

Track 1: may show some level of, you know, not understanding.

Track 1: But at the same time, maybe, I don't know what his thought process,

Track 1: he hasn't really mentioned or talked about that specifically,

Track 1: is that he's, you know, again, that black women are most likely to experience sexual violence.

Track 1: Okay, well, if I have that happen in this movie, I'm showing you what the reality is.

Track 1: And you're showing also, when nobody goes back and just beats the absolute shit

Track 1: out of him, like she does her nails to like claws, which is fucking great.

Track 3: I loved watching that what's.

Track 1: Great what's unfortunate is that's that's sort of like the fiction in a way.

Track 3: Yeah usually these men do not.

Track 1: Get what's their what they deserve for doing those kind of things.

Track 3: This is uh what is this 20 25 years before the me too movement and now we're

Track 3: like in a quote-unquote post me too world which doesn't really mean anything

Track 3: right like post we buried it yeah we're over that now we canceled cancel culture yes we covered.

Track 2: It up we we're.

Track 3: Past it we covered it up okay guys we had our time

Track 3: like okay move on so it's interesting like

Track 3: um yeah so often the sexual violence that women and especially um women of the

Track 3: global majority face you don't you don't get a warning they aren't a character

Track 3: that gets any time and then people watch it and they move on or they watch it

Track 3: and just like you said, they're like, was this really necessary?

Track 3: Did I really just see this in my showgirls movie? Yeah. Did I have to see that?

Track 2: The fact that she...

Track 2: The fact that she had that revenge moment, that took me out of it more than anything else.

Track 2: I was just like, so what? You threatened this rich man and then left?

Track 2: First of all, even if this happened in real life, you've done nothing to help anybody.

Track 2: You've actually made things worse, number one.

Track 2: because like you you didn't if she

Track 2: killed him kudos good job but she didn't she you know i mean like maybe like

Track 2: you showed up you roughed him up and then you left you literally you left you

Track 2: left and you left the person who was victimized by him behind and.

Track 3: Also she's the reason that molly was assaulted.

Track 2: Yeah yeah.

Track 3: Like tangentially like she forced her she pressured her to come to the party

Track 3: molly was like i don't want to go she's like please please molly please and

Track 3: then she came and then she she left her.

Track 2: You know left her twice everything yeah everything about that like that was

Track 2: the in my opinion like the worst part and like the the biggest failing of the

Track 2: movie to me interesting was the fact that she did that and then fucked off i was like if.

Track 3: You were to have been able to rewrite what occurs after molly's assault what

Track 3: is your ideal ideal scene post that.

Track 2: She kills him.

Track 1: Yeah and goes to prison or gets caught or.

Track 3: Runs away again.

Track 2: That's it like he actually like because all she did was actually open the door

Track 2: or leave the door open for repercussions against molly.

Track 1: I disagree with you bill because while i don't agree with what her behavior

Track 1: is that she ends up leaving.

Track 1: She's going to Hollywood to

Track 1: Los Angeles to try and make herself a star there. I think it's the perfect,

Track 1: I mean, especially the way that they bookend the movie where she's getting a

Track 1: ride from a hitchhiker and she gets a ride from the same hitchhiker and pulls

Track 1: out her, you know, her switchblade to, you know, get her stuff back.

Track 1: It feels exactly what her character would do is that she got to the top and

Track 1: now she has the buzz from that and then now she can...

Track 1: Take what she's done and what she's learned and what she can do to Hollywood

Track 1: to try to become, you know, an actor and make it in Hollywood.

Track 1: So it feels perfect for her. And you also point out, Bill, at the beginning,

Track 1: she's not particularly nice to Molly at the beginning.

Track 1: You know, she's offering her help and she's not really kind to her.

Track 1: And while she feels bad, I mean, I don't.

Track 2: It just made me angry.

Track 3: I think it's selfish. Yeah, I don't think that.

Track 2: It just pissed me off. It just pissed me off.

Track 1: Sure, sure. like.

Track 2: It just made me angry i was like what the fuck like that's so like.

Track 1: Well what about this is just like.

Track 2: It's the the capper on like you as a shitty person.

Track 1: Well what do you think lily about so after at the same time both molly and crystal

Track 1: are in the hospital because at this also same moment she had pushed crystal

Track 1: down the stairs yes and took over her position as the lead of the show where

Track 1: she's now at the quote-unquote top,

Track 1: like the top level she could get to in Vegas as, you know, this kind of person.

Track 1: And then when she goes to visit Crystal in the hospital, Crystal is, like, super nice to her.

Track 1: She's sort of thankful in a way. She's, you know, my career's getting close

Track 1: to the end. You know, you did me a favor. I think she even says you did me a favor.

Track 2: Yeah, she did you a favor.

Track 1: So what do you, I mean, we sort of talked about that earlier in their sort of

Track 1: their unspoken relationship, but I feel like this is the only time where it's

Track 1: sort of actually spoken more.

Track 3: Yeah. What do I think about it? I think it's so perfect, and I wouldn't want it any differently.

Track 3: The way that they interact with each other towards the end.

Track 3: Because, in a way, if Crystal doesn't get this dramatic out,

Track 3: this dramatic ending, then she's just fading into irrelevance.

Track 3: And she kind of has to face that, too. And she's so jaded. Like,

Track 3: Crystal has become so jaded in all of this.

Track 3: I'm happy for her. If she's happy, I'm happy.

Track 1: In some ways, I almost would think that if Crystal had remained in the show,

Track 1: almost her ending could have been worse, dare I say?

Track 1: Something they could have done, you know, gotten rid of her.

Track 1: I'm not saying they're going to kill her. I mean, maybe. I don't know. Who knows? It's Vegas.

Track 3: Who knows what they can do?

Track 1: But I don't know. it's like she somehow she gets her out she also says that

Track 1: her lawyers got a big sell she got a big settlement from her lawyers she's probably

Track 1: set for life maybe that's a great.

Track 3: Way to go what do you think bill.

Track 2: I think and this is funny because it actually takes takes me back to a conversation

Track 2: evan and i were having okay okay about how,

Track 2: In America, under a capitalist system, people are basically,

Track 2: and like we didn't go in depth, but we were talking about, you know,

Track 2: basically it's like people basically live in survival mode constantly.

Track 3: Yep.

Track 2: The vast majority of people live in survival mode. You know,

Track 2: I often say that like, you know,

Track 2: you can't expect a lot of, you can't expect the average working class person

Track 2: in America to have class consciousness when they spend 80 hours a week working,

Track 2: you know, and commuting.

Track 2: and it's like where do they where would you eat like all you do and to me like crystal,

Track 2: like is in a ways like indicative

Track 2: of it's like because she's like many of she's in survival mode yeah and all

Track 2: you have time to do is react how do i react to this problem i react to this

Track 2: i react to that i i you know how i have a problem react to it i have a problem

Track 2: react to it how do i solve this so I can get to the next thing?

Track 2: How can I get to the next thing so I can make it to the next thing,

Track 2: even at that point of quote unquote wealth?

Track 3: Yes, because she's still a victim and still oppressed the entire time. Yeah.

Track 2: Right. To go back to a common misconception of people who do not understand class,

Track 2: it doesn't matter how much money you

Track 2: have if you are selling your labor and you're selling your body and to go back

Track 2: again to the fact that like as a person that does a physical job i work a job

Track 2: that if i you know if my body breaks in a certain way i can't do my job.

Track 3: Yeah you know.

Track 2: Like and it's like,

Track 2: People look at dancers and actors, they look at them like, oh,

Track 2: and athletes, and you're like, oh, well, they're rich.

Track 2: It's like, yeah, well, but they're selling their body.

Track 3: Yeah, they have a time limit.

Track 2: They have a time limit. They break, they're fucking.

Track 1: They're fucked. NFL players' average career is about three years.

Track 2: Right.

Track 3: Isn't that insane?

Track 1: And most of them aren't rich.

Track 2: Actually. The average NFL player's career should be zero years because the NFL shouldn't exist.

Track 3: No, it should not.

Track 2: And football should not fucking exist. I hate football.

Track 3: I get it.

Track 2: She has been given something by this.

Track 2: She has been given the privilege of not having to react at this point.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 2: She has been given the privilege to actually look ahead beyond the immediate thing.

Track 2: And she's been given some kind of cushion. At the expense of her body,

Track 2: it really is the kind of thing.

Track 2: It's like, you know, people don't have the opportunity because we are constantly

Track 2: reacting to things. How do we get to the next thing?

Track 3: I like that. Wondrously put.

Track 1: I guess I sort of mentioned sort of like the book ending of it where,

Track 1: or sort of the, you know, it's kind of a full cycle where she's hitchhiking

Track 1: in, that she's hitchhiking out to go to it.

Track 1: And that's again where, you know, I go back to the sort of very simple analysis

Track 1: of Nomi being this sort of version of capitalist,

Track 1: capitalism, trying to sell their labor or sell their labor as an individualistic kind of pursuit.

Track 1: and it's sort of a very it's like slightly satisfying I feel like them taking,

Track 1: her being hitchhiking with the same guy was sort of maybe a way to make you

Track 1: briefly forget that she has abandoned her friend who did so much for her I'm

Track 1: trying to think of what I'm trying to say is that,

Track 1: And it's kind of what you would expect to have happen, even if it's maybe both

Track 1: somewhat satisfying and also deeply unsatisfying.

Track 1: And just, yeah, I don't know. I kind of lost my job.

Track 2: I have a hot take on the truck guy.

Track 1: Please.

Track 2: I don't think he stole our suitcase. I think she wandered off and he was like,

Track 2: I'm not waiting any longer.

Track 3: Oh, that's how I took it. She was going for a long time in the casino.

Track 3: He was like, meet me back here in one hour.

Track 3: And then she made all her money and then lost all her money by the time that

Track 3: she realized that he was gone.

Track 2: And then blamed it on him. Right. And then blamed it on him.

Track 2: I was like, bitch, you wandered off.

Track 1: She won a bunch of money. She's like, ooh, look, I won money.

Track 1: And then someone's like, oh, how about you bet more on this other machine? Then it's all gone.

Track 3: Everything.

Track 1: It's also just a perfect synopsis of what happens to probably 98% of people

Track 1: who go to 99.5. Sorry. What?

Track 2: And she blamed it on him. like she

Track 2: consistently like people in this like blames her like she blamed her problems

Track 2: on this other guy instead of like in any way shape I'm like yeah like you you

Track 2: wandered off like hours like what did you think he was gonna do he's a stranger

Track 2: and is already given like it's like,

Track 2: There is a certain, there is a certain analysis of Nomi, which is that like,

Track 2: she does not have class solidarity.

Track 2: And that is one of her biggest problems.

Track 2: That is one of her biggest problems. She does not have class solidarity.

Track 2: She does not have consideration for other people.

Track 1: You're like, drop that as we're talking about the ending. But no, I, that's, um,

Track 1: that's super, I mean, that sort of goes back to maybe what we're all talking

Track 1: about at the beginning where, well, aside from the two different,

Track 1: you know, she, or maybe, I don't know who one of us, one of us said how she's,

Track 1: people are trying to help her, but she doesn't care.

Track 1: She wants to do it on her own because that's sort of the individualistic.

Track 1: I think that's the same, that's what the capitalist class wants us not to have. Yeah.

Track 1: Wants us to step on each other, not trust anyone, do everything for ourselves,

Track 1: because they can't allow us to have class consciousness.

Track 1: And they succeed by taking everything from her.

Track 1: You know, she came from the street and yet still maybe reasonably doesn't trust people.

Track 1: still it's just i don't know.

Track 2: Which is why like when when al

Track 2: did i forget his name already al right yeah you got

Track 2: it yeah from cheetah alan henry had to show up

Track 2: like that's what that felt it's like she sold out yeah you sold out like you

Track 2: sold out you betrayed your own people and you're going to get fucked because

Track 2: of it because this is you know you either to go back to running man stay Stick with your people.

Track 3: Yeah. And I mean, we see that almost immediately. The minute that she feels

Track 3: threatened by Crystal when Molly first introduces her, she can't handle herself.

Track 3: But in the same way that Evan was saying, or that you were saying,

Track 3: sorry, but Evan was agreeing with, we're always reacting.

Track 3: Constant reaction. Nomi is clearly a very underdeveloped person,

Track 3: deeply traumatized, very incapable of normal human interaction,

Track 3: and she sows that. and it's both to her advantage and her her failure.

Track 2: She struck me as arrested development and honestly at times like i'd like not super bright.

Track 3: Yeah well she's i think she's supposed to be very childlike.

Track 2: Yeah it's it was kind of like which is makes it

Track 2: even creepier yes the whole thing it's

Track 2: so especially in this time of epstein file disclosures just the constant preying

Track 2: on innocence and and and children and she really is like she's not like you

Track 2: said she's not well developed she's not developed she's not.

Track 1: You said she was naive earlier but in some ways you would think that,

Track 1: maybe you would think her experience as you know before she gets there and if

Track 1: she's 23 in the movie as her actual age i don't know how that's maybe about

Track 1: what she's supposed to be oh.

Track 3: My god we're twins irl and in the movie cute.

Track 1: But does i mean she's naive but she's also able very capable of sticking up

Track 1: for herself but you still think because of her experience it made it so she's unable to really yeah.

Track 3: Earlier i had said that she was naive i said she was naive and then i think

Track 3: i I clarified or qualified that because I didn't quite like the wording.

Track 1: Okay. Okay. Sorry.

Track 3: She seemingly, no, you're all good. Cause I, I also was like trying to find

Track 3: my footing and how I felt about her.

Track 3: She is naive in thinking that she can do it her way.

Track 1: Yes.

Track 3: And that she doesn't have to sacrifice anything. And

Track 3: she goes from having to

Track 3: do survival street work to

Track 3: coming to this place where i i think that she assumes

Track 3: if she can do everything well enough she won't have to um make the same sacrifices

Track 3: that she has had to and then as she tries to reassert that over and over again

Track 3: she is proven wrong time and again yeah um but seemingly does not want to admit

Track 3: that to herself which is the naive part i think yeah.

Track 1: Right no yeah that that's yeah i read you did say that that makes a lot more

Track 1: sense but also she presumably this is just sort of a like how could this have

Track 1: happened she doesn't give them her real social security number how is she getting

Track 1: paid from this corporation.

Track 3: What is the time span of this movie is also a good question i'm so curious yeah

Track 3: what that's a good right okay,

Track 3: All right.

Track 1: So here's three months. I don't know.

Track 3: Get into it.

Track 1: It's so hard. What do you say, Bill?

Track 2: So before I'm trying to remember what it's called, that system is called something.

Track 1: Oh, where they, where they actually check your history based on your social security.

Track 2: So that system is called something. I can't remember what it's called.

Track 2: So like when you go to a place and you get a job and you give them their social

Track 2: security, they put it in like a computer, like it's like, Like one company has like a monopoly on it.

Track 2: But I believe this is actually before that system was implemented.

Track 2: So basically, if you gave a false social security number, there was a period

Track 2: of time basically before like taxes.

Track 2: And it's like before taxes came calling for the person paying that that would

Track 2: be like checked, recorded, and then like gone through.

Track 2: So like it is now like automated.

Track 2: Like you have to give the social security and that social security number has

Track 2: to be valid in some way for it to show up.

Track 2: But like back in the day, unless they did an audit, it wouldn't come up.

Track 2: Like it, unless they went, unless the IRS went through your books and like went

Track 2: through all that shit, they wouldn't have found it out.

Track 2: It's all on, you know, it was all like sent like in and like stuff like that.

Track 2: I can't remember what the name of that goddamn company is.

Track 3: It'll come to you right after.

Track 2: Yeah. I've been self-employed for like fucking like 10 years.

Track 2: I don't know. I haven't done that in a long time. I don't know.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 1: No, but that, yeah, I don't know. I was purely partly just saying that as more

Track 1: of a joke, you know, the inconsistency of, you know, the fact that she's just

Track 1: sort of lying on her form. Like, oh, like, do you have any family?

Track 1: She's like, no, you know, whatever. I don't have this, uh.

Track 1: I don't know. But Lily, any final thoughts on the film or anything you maybe didn't get to mention?

Track 3: My final thoughts are that cult classics are some of the best movies to watch.

Track 3: And I love them. And I mentioned To Wong Fu With Love earlier.

Track 3: And that was the other movie that was in the back of my head this whole time.

Track 3: And I think now more than ever, as we are becoming a more and more forcibly conservative country,

Track 3: it's so lovely to be able to have this art to enjoy and to critique and have

Track 3: such a good time chatting about.

Track 3: I liked both of your guys' perspectives on it.

Track 1: No thank you for uh for coming i really appreciate it

Track 1: and i i would i would also agree completely with

Track 1: the idea of just you know yes you can watch marvel slop

Track 1: but you can also watch great movies that people

Track 1: didn't appreciate and people forget about and you know that would be that would

Track 1: actually be so we help we have leather box as a both as a podcast and as me

Track 1: personally but a great list would be like putting together these underappreciated

Track 1: you know uh cult classics that people should watch.

Track 3: Go ahead, Bill.

Track 2: Just remember my perspective on movies is we already have enough and we don't need to make more.

Track 3: Hello.

Track 2: We have plenty. You could just watch the ones that have already made.

Track 2: We don't need to make more.

Track 3: I like it.

Track 1: Yeah, I know, Bill. That was your hot take. I mean.

Track 3: I think, let me say this also, for my final wrap up, I think you guys are such

Track 3: interesting hosts and I have not, I didn't get to meet your other host and maybe

Track 3: one day I will if you have me back.

Track 2: Absolutely. Bring you on for Julie Neumar.

Track 3: I would love that. I would love that. But Evan, your takes are great because

Track 3: you're trying to be nuanced and like come at it from every point of view.

Track 3: And then Bill, you have so much passion. And you know what?

Track 3: For like the average person, if they don't like a movie, it is very hard to

Track 3: still be objective about it. But you did that. So, yeah.

Track 2: Thank you.

Track 3: It was great.

Track 1: I appreciate that. That's very nice to say. But I think, and Ward,

Track 1: I mean, Ward sort of has, I'm trying to think of like how he then fits into

Track 1: sort of his third, as the third sort of voice.

Track 3: Right? Because you guys have to be different in order for it to kind of add like a lot of gumption.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 3: What do you think?

Track 2: Ward has no compunction about just straight up tearing things down if he doesn't like it.

Track 1: Yeah, that's definitely true. We generally, I mean, it is sometimes fun to do

Track 1: a movie that everyone, you know, guests, hosts, all just like don't like and sort of tear it apart.

Track 1: And that's fun. But it's also fun.

Track 1: I think it's more interesting sometimes when there's different opinions where

Track 1: someone likes it, someone doesn't like it or, you know, has that.

Track 1: And it just both are very valid criticisms and critiques of art.

Track 2: I was an English major. I mean, I didn't graduate college, but I was an English

Track 2: major in college. So, you know, that's like that comes with being an English major.

Track 3: Sure, sure, sure.

Track 2: You just bullshit anything. you get to the end yeah you know I really appreciate the,

Track 2: The, I mean, the totally, you know, like the different perspective that you

Track 2: have on this kind of thing, especially, you know,

Track 2: from, you know, it is, it is valuable to, you know, you have,

Track 2: you know, perspective, but obviously Evan and I cannot have,

Track 2: um, and you're like, you know, and.

Track 2: I mean, in many ways, also, we're also just, Evan told me, he's like,

Track 2: you're going to feel old, Bill. And I'm like, well, that's good.

Track 2: I got good news for you. I always feel old.

Track 2: It is definitely, it is a valuable, you know, plus you are an incredibly learned

Track 2: and informed individual on theory and stuff like that.

Track 3: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Track 2: You you are you are doing something valuable for the uh you know the online community and what you

Track 2: know what you've done that warms my heart i definitely would like to you know

Track 2: you definitely i mean i'm not the only way to make these calls but you know

Track 2: it would definitely be great to have you back on to talk about you know these things.

Track 1: Yeah and the movie you just described before i've never seen tufong wub i'm.

Track 3: Not kidding evan you're gonna i think you would really like it have you seen it i saw.

Track 2: It yeah but like when it was like out.

Track 3: A long.

Track 1: Cast is insane i was just looking at it it's an insane cast absolutely insane so it's.

Track 2: An incredible cast.

Track 1: Same year i haven't seen it since like.

Track 3: I was yeah i thought it was the same year.

Track 1: Yeah it was um.

Track 3: Insane movie and also most not queer people have not seen it which makes it

Track 3: so much better to get to share it with people.

Track 1: Yeah it's so good yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna add this to my watch list to watch

Track 1: and then certainly we'll have you back or a different movie it doesn't have to be whatever,

Track 1: the guest gets to usually choose I think that makes it more fun though sometimes

Track 1: we do have people come on and we're like we're going to talk about this movie

Track 1: that everyone hates come hate it I can appreciate.

Track 3: That too I love to gossip.

Track 1: But Lily thank you again for coming on Left with Projector and you can find

Track 1: you we'll link to your profile on Instagram Thank you, thank you. In the show notes.

Track 1: And we will catch you next time on Left of the Projector.