Hi, I'm Nina Endrst

I'm Anna Toonk. Welcome to how to be human, a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness

on this episode Anna and I discuss control

take a seat clear mind and let's chat

play a brand.

Hello. I was going to try to come in with like, you know, a bit of a song but it would give away our topic at the top as if, you know, as if they don't, they can't read the episode title alone didn't. But it was gonna come in with a little Janet Jackson Hole

been really filling her lately. Me too. I

don't know if it was you.

It was me who posted her recently?

Yeah, it was us. Just

me. I'm the only one

you didn't someone else did. And then and I was like, yeah, and then I was walking and heard a car went by blasting when I think of you. And like my whole neighborhood was like, we maybe have hope again. Like everybody was possibly was like dancing. It was really fun. And I was like, Man, that Janet Jackson has some magic.

She's so is Oh my goodness. That loves me some Janet.

Yeah, some vintage Janet is Michael Don't ask me. Don't

ask me. I don't want to hear it. Yes, I know he. But I don't just like,

is it the child molesting or?

I mean? Like, it doesn't help. It doesn't help. But I was never like, each so hugely into his music either.

01:35

Really?

No. Hot take sorry. No, I'm

just I'm more like, like, I'm not that into the Beatles. And people lose their minds when I say that. So I for connecting with you as someone who like you say and people are like, What? No way.

I mean, he definitely like, Listen, he's a sad guy, clearly, but he did freak me out. So I stayed away for that reason. But yeah, I mean, there are some songs that I'm like, Yeah, this is a fucking amazing song. But for the most part not Yeah. Not huge on Michael but love Jana. Yeah. Interesting. You

prefer the other sip?

I do. So we're talking today about control. Five.

This is a very niche special episode. That will be

you. Nobody asked and so you are receiving.

That is really funny. But part of why I did want to sing Janet Jackson, is that today we're talking about control. Which man, it feels like it's like never been more relevant in a way issues of control coming up a lot here. They're everywhere. But our definition coming today from Oxford languages. The power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events. Our example the whole operation is under the control of a production manager to a group or individual use as a standard of comparison for checking the results of a survey or experiment they saw is place my mind when it's funny and literally as I read it was like, oh, yeah, like a control group. Yeah, exactly. I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot. Yeah, like, yeah, that's the thing.

Thanks. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm just busy thinking about bands on our bodies.

A group or individual us as a control of comparison protecting the results of a survey or experiment, they saw no difference between the cancer patients and the controls, verb, determine the behavior or supervise the running of he was appointed to control the company's marketing strategy, take into account an extraneous factor that might affect results when performing an experiment. No attempt was made to control for variation. So we've the noun and the verb there. And then I was curious, there's the APA dictionary of psychology, the American Psychological Association and control was authority, power or influence over events, behaviors, situations, or people. Researchers have hypothesized a need for control. And they also distinguish between primary control and secondary control. So it's pretty much lining up with what Oxford believes when control comes up. What's the first thing you think about?

Well, I said, are we going to talk about cults today? So I guess that's one of the things I think,

yeah. Which I thought was like, super interesting. I mean,

I think a lot about cults lately, because, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of them always, I guess, but there's certainly a lot of that cult mentality seeping into everyday existence now a days that I feel it's ever present. And I'm fascinated with. I don't know, maybe this is kind of like when You talk to your therapist and you're like people in denial, they must know. I like but do you want to be controlled like this? Did you see the stupid Trump video I posted? About people saying they were in a call and then they described a call?

No, good. No, that's always my favorite.

Like, we just believe anything that comes out of his mouth. He could literally say anything, and they're literally head to toe in Trump stuff. And they're like, will believe anything? He says, We don't care what he says we don't we will always support him. The guy's like, yeah, that what you're describing here, one, but I control I think that I think of men and controlling, trying to control women or people, you know, I think of white men specifically trying to control anyone who's not one of them. And what else do I think of controlling relationships? I think of being yelling behavior. That's where my mind goes all those places.

Yeah. It's so interesting, because, like, I think there's, I mean, I guess all control is, or I think most control is probably negative, but I find it really interesting. Like, where the intention is coming from seems to really decide what level of bad it is, in the sense of, I, when I was sort of unpacking a bunch of stuff in therapy, many moons ago, I had to look at my own control shit, you know, and when I started to really understand that often people, you know, who have any kind of trauma often become very controlling, you know, that it is, it comes from a, like, often the desire to control can come, because uncertainty feels really threatening, and scary, you know, and I know, for me, it was like, I built this life that was so much about control, like I was producing, which is a lot about controlling what's going on, you know, like, and it's like, you're doing it from a place of, you're trying to control things in order to guarantee your result. But you're still controlling, you know, you're still doing shit. And then how are they like, transferred into my personal life and stuff, because it was like, this way, I was trying to, like, minimize any and all variables. And I remember it being explained to me, like, so vividly, when my therapist was like, you can spend your energy on trying to, like, control everything and make the world sort of like meet your need for safety. Or you can learn how to feel inside, and then you won't care so much about the world. And you won't have feel the need, it won't feel so threatening to you. And I was like, sounds pretty good. Like, sure. Is this like a workshop? Like?

Is there a pill? Like,

like, sometimes you give me pamphlets or homework, like, do I get a worksheet with this? You know, Christina, but, um, and I was like, Well, that makes a lot of sense, you know? And then I've thought about it a lot because like, that was so my association with it. And when I think about cults, and I think about like, the Republican Party and how it's turning into a cult, more and more, it feels like, and it's, I get the appeal when you like, so I think so many people, especially in the US feel the lack of any agency, and they feel forgotten. They don't they don't feel heard. And I'm not saying whether or not they're right. You know, like I don't if you're a racist white man sitting on your farm and you feel unheard, I don't care. Like I'll just be honest, I don't know thing. We don't care. Yeah, like figure it out, you know, like, but it is, but then I'm like, Well, shit, we kind of have to care about that guy. Because that lack of care makes him so susceptible to people who are like, I'll make you feel heard. I'll look at like, that's Trump just gave us this masterclass on how to like control and get an end result in

a way my patient is when I drive by houses that I that have Trump signs and stuff and I'm like, Well, how has your life changed? In any way shape or form? How does your life change in any way shape or form? Like it's just not it there? He it can't it can't it can't have Hang on one second. Jesus Christ this guy really choosing to do work right now. Hang on.

I'm gonna fuck. I can't hear anything. Okay. If I mean if that helps.

Let me see if I can hear it. Okay. Sorry. Let me go back to what I was saying. You can edit that out. I wonder what they think they've gotten from the past couple of years like what what have they Yeah, what? How is their life changed? How?

I think it's, you know, when I don't, I don't remember exactly what you said, even though it was only like nine minutes ago, but when you were like, what's the appeal of that? You know, I think if, if you if you're not educated, if you're not, if you don't have resources, if you don't like, I think that control feels like care. And that becomes appealing. Like, regardless of whether or not I mean, some people I think had some, some tax incentives and things like that. Like, I think some people unfortunately did benefit from his policies, which I mean, I want people to benefit but also I don't want Trump to have any have had any positive effects so tricky there. But I also think it's more that some people I know for myself, I don't I don't you have because your your rebellious spirit is so much like, bolder than mine, whereas mine is much sneakier. That at times control felt like care to me.

Oh, yeah, no, for sure. I mean, it feels like care for me to me, like when I can.

When I am controlling me, I feel very

it's I'm really trying to break this shit down. Okay, because I'm like, Nina, this is you're not loving on yourself. Like you think you are. Okay, you're being a control, I can feel it in my body. I can feel the tension, I can feel myself. Like clamp, like clamp down on it, you know? And I and I'm like, Does this feel good? Does this feel Yeah, no doesn't. So maybe if you, you know, sometimes we get in the car and we'll be going somewhere. I'm like, trying? Like, how do I possibly control the situation. So I know that we get from point A to point B safely and like, um, like, just just relax your body. You know, just like be in the moment. There's it really does, though, feel like that I do understand from that standpoint, why people feel so drawn to him, or like cults of any kind, because how do we all get in abusive relationships? You know, I mean, Stockholm Syndrome, like that's a thing. Yeah. And so I remember being with men, and I was actually just talking to a friend of mine today about this, who I was asking her if she'd ever been in love. And she, yeah, she'll questions. I don't I don't have those questions. That's why That's why I've lost so many friends. Yeah, I'm okay with that. Yeah, I'm like their laws. Yeah. Because I'm like, they'd if they don't want to talk about all the stuff all the time, and I'm not, you know, annoying about it. But I just, I don't want to have small talk. I just don't Yeah, it's not in my it's not in my DNA. But we were talking about that. And I said, you know, there are people that I've been in relationship with that it's easy to write off as, you know, abusive wasn't sure. Mutually, absolutely. And a toxic, of course, but was there a zero love there? It's hard for me to gauge that. Like really? Am I in love with them? Was I in love with them? Probably not. But it's, it's, it gets confusing, because you do feel when I remember dating this guy who was very controlling, and he and I hated him, but I also felt weird, like this weird sense of he cares, you know, and he did it. He did. It's just so bizarre. It's there's no like, it's not black and white.

I disagree. I don't think Alright, well, I don't think that it's I don't think it's black and white. But I think if there is something I really liked about Bell Hooks all about love. And she's like, if, you know, if we're defining love as like, the commitment and upholding of someone's like, spiritual. Like she has this whole definition. Then she's like, we can't, she brings up she's talking about in the context of a family, you know, and she's like, it's painful to realize, like, your family of origin. Like that wasn't love. You may have experienced care, affection, things like that. But if there was abuse, then it wasn't love, you know? So that's why I'm like, I disagree because I get it. I say something there's no way but I agree with you that in the moment it's it's really murky and unclear, like but I don't know that that's what's happening.

I feel like I didn't know what was happening. But I also not as clearly as I do now, but it's strange because I look back And there was a period where I'm like, oh my god, that was like the worst thing of all time can't there, it's just this one person. Like other relationships, it's very clear that that was not love, you know, this one person, the way things happen in just knowing like, where he came from and how, you know, it doesn't excuse any of it, and it was incredibly unhealthy. And I would not advise getting into a relationship like that to anyone at anytime. I mean, he doesn't even he's not even on the planet anymore, because he took his life. So it's just it was very layered. And maybe that's part of why I'm like, I did I have love for this person. 100% Like, I know, I did was it? And I know he had love for me. Was it? Love? Maybe not, but we definitely had love for each other.

Yeah, I also think sometimes, like, does, it doesn't matter, you don't like if somebody was significant or had an impact or what you know, like, I think sometimes we get hung up on certain things. And it like it, like, especially to for someone who's like, not even alive anymore, that it's like, it was the was it or wasn't it is less important than just like, it had great significance to you, you know, like, this was someone who was impactful. Like I think sometimes we we get mired down in like, our validating, or this or was it that and it's like, you know, I think maybe what you're talking about is like you knew at that time it maybe wasn't healthy love, you know that that totally feel. But that doesn't mean it wasn't but this is where I think it's like, rules are like a good way to guide ourselves but they can't We can't like live and die by it, you know, because it's like, that's just not how life or human beings played out. But you know, what, something I did Google out of curiosity was examples of controlling behavior. Because you know, like, we know it when I think generally we know it when we feel it, but I was like, curious what somebody would list as it so this is from my buddy green, how to spot controlling people 13 behaviors to look for. And I would say most of it is like what you would expect calling all the shots simply put, controlling behavior can look very basically like controlling all the decision making in the relationship romantic or non. This can include, you know, where to go out to eat, what to order, all that sort of stuff, disrespecting privacy and boundaries, which I thought was interesting, because boundaries makes sense. But I thought that disrespecting privacy was like a nice add on to having this conversation. Agreed. Whether a parent a friend or a partner disrespecting someone else's boundaries, and privacy is a controlling behavior. Constant checking in, there's nothing wrong checking in with someone while they're out from time to time. But if it's incessant or seems increasingly agitated, that's a sign they're coming from a controlling place.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Where are you? What are you doing now? With her?

Yep. Yep. She's like, for example, she says, if you're out to dinner with your friends, and your partner keeps texting, where are you? Who are you with? Send me a picture so I can see you. That's definitely controlling. Yeah, crazy. But don't you feel like if you told your girlfriends that are like, you know, if you were younger, they might be like, That's psycho. But like, that's where it might end or so I don't know, the newer generation is like infinite like,

Oh, my God, they're very know what they're dating or who they are. I mean, I don't know who they're dating what their dating is, like,

either. So can't Whoa, that I don't know if any of them leave their homes. Like they're so late to the I wonder if they're unhealthy relationships. I mean, their DNA, like it maybe depends. I mean, they blow my mind in terms of their like, way of maybe self expression and confidence in the way that they're like, that's a behavior that I don't accept and doesn't align with my values. And I'm like, why to their boss? Yeah, that to off, Mike, I have to tell you a funny story in regards to that. But okay, picking unnecessary fights. picking fights seemingly out of nowhere can also be a control tactic, but because to a controlling person. negative attention is better than

I used to do that. For sure.

It's because of their end, abandonment issues and insecure attachment, baby.

Check, check, check, check. Yeah, Ace pick fights all the time. Not really. Oh, yeah. Well, you that I mean, I was a I was a not a yeah, when I was.

Yeah. Fine, finding love to pick a fight. Controlling spending. financial control is a very real one. This can look like dictating what's purchase, dictating a budget and or being over really critical about another person's purchases, isolating you, if someone's actively seeking to isolate you from friends and family, that's a surefire sign. They want to control you guilt tripping, which I thought was really interesting. Over time, this can lead someone to doubt or at least deprioritize their own needs, which I thought was interesting

and it has an of gaslighting.

Yeah. And I mean, I think sometimes like, I don't know if you've, you know, feel this way but where it's like, you know, something's bad, but you don't know why. Like, I know guilt tripping is not a positive behavior, like it doesn't feel good. It doesn't make me want to do something for someone. But why when bucket doesn't go in total, yeah. And when it said like, because it is going to encourage you to doubt and deprioritize your needs. And then if the thought of sharing your true feelings also makes you feel guilty, that's a sign there is control at the center of your relationship, which I thought was really interesting. insecurity in the bedroom. This is this is kind of coming up around sex toys. A controlling partner may feel threatened or diminished by that gaslighting, gaslighting, or making them question their own experience by denying denying or deflecting, is another way a controlling person will try to manipulate another 10 doing things only so you're indebted to them, which I thought was very interesting. Another control tactic some people will use is doing nice things for others, but only so those people are indebted to them. Or you could do it my way. So that you then think they won't leave you, you know, which turns out doesn't work.

New turns out not anyone's wondering.

I was trying to control the departure it did not work. 11 Jealousy, this lack of trust triggers their insecurities. It makes their need to control you even greater narcissism, which I'm like, Oh, I love that nurses isms like, like the little black dress of psychology, it can just go with everything

you know, trying to grab when in doubt.

Trying to grab control of everything is archetypal narcissist behavior. Cool. She explains that because narcissists are continually disappointed with the input perfect way life unfolds, they try to control it as much as possible, fascinating. And then conditional love. Conditional levels of controlling for when a parent may withhold love as a control tactic, which I found is really interesting. Like of, I would say, half of it is what I would have expected any other half wasn't or weren't things that immediately came to mind. But also like understanding some of like, how it all fits together. And why we're trying to avoid it was also just like, fascinating to me, because I think I'm someone who can have a lot of duality with control in the sense of, I don't think I'm a particularly controlling person, I generally can. Like, I think I know when I want to be controlling in the sense of I'll be like, I like I want to do this or I'm more controlling, I think about creative, creative stuff, in the sense of I'll either be like, I have a vision, or I want this this way, or that sort of thing. I've had an issue with some friendships, I think, because of healing some of my stuff, where I've definitely been in relationships both a little bit less romantic, today, and a little bit more friendship where I've had lots of controlling friends. And that's been Yeah, because I think like, what's tricky is, I would say, half of them. I know, I know that it's coming. I know it's coming, or I suspect it's coming from trauma or from, you know, past experiences. So I can empathize with that. But doesn't change that. It doesn't feel good. You know, like,

this is kind of my question like you love your friends. Right. But they're your their control if they're controlling then my question is the question for you, Anna is yes, it you love your friends, despite the fact that they're, they display controlling behaviors, right? Yes. So is that love or not? Is the controlling behavior love but Is there love in the friendship you see, you see?

Yeah, I think, to me, it's whether or not it for me a big thing is whether or not it can be dialogued about you know, if I'm like, hi, like, you're, you know, you're you're being alone much or something, you know, I have a friend who I I have to be aware of, she's very much given an inch tick, smile, you know, and she loves to connect through sort of treating people a bit like a project. And so I have to sometimes push back and be like, it's not about whether or not you're right. It's not about whether or not you think that would change my life or whatever, you know, it's about I do not want to do that. And as the person who is like, CEO of anatomic Incorporated, like I'm, it's a no, like,

what does that have to do with you? Like, why do people live in friendships? Right? I can see it a little bit more in relationships, not healthy, not approved, not signed, on, not signing on to that. But when friendships like what do you think that does for her? Why do you think she tries to control you so that she can feel like she's the one who's going to get you to what she thinks is a better place?

I think that's a power dynamic, to be honest, you know, like, I think it's, you know, I think rather than dealing with some of the harder stuff that comes in any relationship, which is just like witnessing people, it's a way to, I think it's the way she copes with her own ins uncertainty. And the way she's like, you know, like, Oh, my friends talking about this thing. And like, if you don't like, it bothers her in, I feel I have the solution or whatever. Like, I think it comes from a good place. You know, like, often, it's whether or not when someone says, that doesn't feel good to me, what are you choosing? Are you choosing more your desire to feel safe via control? Or you choosing to hear the person who's expressing this doesn't feel good? That to me is often where is there real love there? Or not? You know, like, are like, are you? Are you in a friendship of like, your, your childhood wounds like to like dance together? Or is there like a real relationship there? Like, if it's not a real relationship, you can't, like, you can't hear people's truth and you can't, like, receive it in a way, you know. So that, to me is like, kind of my rule of thumb, if that makes sense.

It does, I feel like you have such a higher threshold for that, then, like, I could never be friends with anybody who's controlling like, never, I was friends with two girls when I was 13, and 14. And they were awful humans, one of them had like a reason to be the other one was just saying, but they were so controlling and awful. And actually, when I mean, this goes, another episode, maybe, but I guess it's coming in this one. And I actually, like, tried to even take my own life when I was like, 13 at because I was so obviously I was a child. And I didn't understand like what I was really doing. But I really wanted to die. How spoking sad is that? I really wanted to die. And so much of it was obviously old pain from when I was a kid, like a little kid. But these girls not saying it was their fault. But they had just pushed and pushed and pushed me. And I let myself become this version of myself. I didn't recognize and I was so stuck in. It was like, Where are you going? constantly calling my house. Like, if I was friends with my old friends who are actually healthy, they would freak out. It was just so so so sick. And maybe it's because of that, that I'm so incredibly sensitive to any sort of bit of jealousy or control in friendships that if I see an ounce of it, I'm out. Yeah.

I think because it can show up, like so many different ways. But also like, my mom is super controlling. She's chilled out as I've gotten older and she's worked on it. But like, mine was crazy controlling, you know, and like that. It's a bit it's Mike conditioning started so young, you know, like that, that that? I think it does feel like love to me, you know, and it feels very familiar. So for me, I do have to check in sometimes and be like, Is this good or bad? You know, like, I remember I was talking to my therapist once and we were talking to you often do, as I do, as I did this morning at 10am. And as I'm wanting to do, it was funny because I had we were talking about some article that today and she's like oh I've heard about that. And I was like, I'm giving you homework. I was like, you have to read it. It's really good. And she's like, okay, and it's funny. Just before we started, she texted was like, this was a really good article. Like, I'm like, Cool. Isn't it nice to you, Anna? Yeah, like all these nerds together, like we all find each other, find each other, you know. But um, I was saying to her about, like, I was venting about a girlfriend who every guy she dated was the one and every doochie data was the one every dude she dated, had the biggest deck, like every do to get it was the best sex like, and, and it was literally every single time. And it becomes such a thing that, like, she didn't even know. And we were like, out once I was like, Let me guess. And I like basically hit a point. And I was just like, he's dead. And she was like, why? And I was like, You say it about every single one. And she's like, well, this and I was like, if they're all in, then none of them are at, you know, so. And I, he was like, I just I, you know, like, within like 10 minutes of the data felt like I'd known him for ever. And like, all this shit is different. Yeah. And my therapist was like, you know, I don't always know that that's a good thing, then I was like, What do you mean, you know? And she's like, well, sometimes when someone's familiar to us, it's not for a good reason. It's because we've encountered that kind of person before. And I was like, uh, so not quite understanding. And he's like, you know, like, if you don't like someone with a really strong opinion, or something like that, like, you're picking up on the fact that like, reminds you of like, your parent who's overbearing, or something, you know, like, it's dinging in the in you that this is familiar, you know how to do this dance. But is that necessarily the dance you want to do? And I was like, Holy shit, you know. And so now, so often, if I meet people, and I'm like, Ooh, there's a sense of familiarity about this person, I check in around that, and I'm like, and control is a big one. For me, it's very often I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna have to keep an eye on this. Like, it seems like they're, you know, coming from a place of of controlling stuff. I mean, I'm not 13 I have the benefit of being a 40 something year old woman. So I can, I think, but this is also where I fuck myself over where I'll be like, I'm a 47 year old woman, I'll be able to determine if this is good or bad or whatever. And I don't always get it right. But generally, me being really clear in that control is often a them thing that they want to make a you think part of why I think I do that dance with a lot of people who are controlling, is my lesson is learning how to stay loyal to myself before someone else. And stay in my boundaries, or say, I understand are like, Hey, you keep bringing this up. And I've said, I don't want to do it, why do you keep bringing it up? You know, like, it makes me rather than, like, just jettisoning someone or, you know, like, or getting angry or avoiding them or whatever. The one of the biggest things I learned was to, like, meet it with curiosity, and just sort of be like, What is this about? And it makes it puts it on them, you know, they have, they have to figure that out. Because lots of times with controlling behavior, if you sort of like, if you kind of go like, hey, like you're acting real wild about this, my mom gets crazy about Christmas, like this time of year. And you'll notice it we're recording right now in May, Christmas, not super important, you know? And she'll just get a bee in her bonnet and like, explode my phone, and I'll be like, what? And she's like, Oh, I just need to talk to you about Christmas. I'm like, you actually did it. You just wanted to, which is different, you know, but she'll do this is good stuff. So if you want to

have it, what else do you need to know? Yeah,

it often she'll be like, did you want to do it here or there? And I'm like, in either one of your homes? I don't know. You tell me like where do you want to host this? Since I won't marry someone to become the matriarch now. meet you halfway. You should have retired. I did not allow for that. So let's, let's co create this holiday together Mother, you know, but um, that's part of like, it's actually something I've had to meet myself with a lot of kindness about to be honest. Because I have a strong personality. I have a lot of confidence. I have a strong sense of self. So why the fuck do I get so spun by people sometimes. And it is that I'm really because I am pretty like, chill in a way. I am susceptible to controlling people that feels very familiar and loving and caring to me. And then I feel really disloyal when I start like bumping against them like the guilt trip thing. I'm so susceptible to guilt trips, and I've had to really work on that and when I read I was like, ah, like, self betrayal is a big thing for me. I've been learning how to quit self betraying and controlling people can be really sexy and seductive. In that sense. If you're like, Oh my God, you're gonna like, tell me how to live my best life because you care about me so much like, I'm gonna, then I must be special, you know, like you really seductive sometimes, like, if you're insecure about relationships, like the person you're dating, being, like, I want to know where you are like, that can feel so good that I just want to, like, hold space for people that are like, ashamed, maybe that that's felt good and felt like care, you know? No,

there's a reason that people that, you know, we get roped into these types of things like it doesn't, it's there. There's nothing wrong with you. You just it's something worth noticing. And healing from because it's not healthy, sustainable or in you're not deserving of it. That's not what you deserve way more and better. I think there's one positive of, you know, aspect of control. I wonder what you think. And yeah, cuz I'm like digging for one. And I think I found it. It. And, yeah, I Well sit down. So I think you and I know you and I hear a lot of people in readings who want direction or, you know, answers, but they don't necessarily want to take action sometimes. Which is very common and human. I got it. But taking control of your own life and your own circumstances to the best of your ability. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's something that I think it's almost like, we kind of weren't, we're like so enamored with, like the bad boy control that we don't even notice. Good guy control.

I went, Yeah, that's a really, really, really good point. I I agree. I and that's something I've been thinking about a lot of how often we get so hung up on kind of the bad boy of whatever. The issue is, that we it's not so much that we don't necessarily see the positive but there is like,

a choice. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, we don't like the choice because there's, I find people are so resistant. And I was for a long time. I was just talking to someone. I can't remember about who but anyway, it doesn't matter. You don't care. It's about when I didn't want to believe that when I had Crohn's I my behavior had anything to do with it. So I was just in this perpetual cycle of like, oh, I'll just go and get a four hour Remicade drip which was essentially like chemo. I mean, it wasn't but I was sitting right. Yes. Job. So it's, it's in the neighborhoods and

the it's in the family. And I forget what the other one is that yeah, are classes. Yeah, you're right. You're not. You're not telling

me oh, I'm a scientist. So and I would sit there and I would be injected with things for whatever this drip, drip, drip, drip. And then I would leave, and I would change nothing about my life. I would date bad people, I would smoke cigarettes, I would drink a lot of booze. I wine only specifically not that that matters. But hard alcohol would have been harder on me. And I would have jobs I hated and I would come back every three weeks, not once thinking that perhaps I could change some of the behaviors and control in a positive way the outcome of even like my day. And it just I see that and people a lot this denial or this just okay, that's a great option. But what about this option, which would, which would not require me to take control of my life and move in any way? I'll just stay here. That's much better. And I get that scary. I'm not mocking it in any way. I just, it's it's so interesting that we have this, this block and I see it lift from people. So after I've worked with them for a while, usually and still have these aha moments, which I'm I feel really blessed to be, you know, to witness when they're like sewing changed this thing and I like took control and like something changed and I'm like, really? Tell me more. And I wish that we could kind of get it earlier as humans but I just find it fascinating that it's very often something we want to look the other way on.

Ai I feel like at this point, I'm, I mean, of course I can be defensive about stuff. But I feel like reading, for me changed so much in my relationship with like, feedback or accountability or just like you just start to realize like, nothing's real, like, nothing's really a call out, you know. And I feel like with clients so often when it's, you know, for example, if someone's like, I'm, I'm ready to find the one I'm calling in love Baba, and I'm like, Cool. Are you dating? They're like, No, then I'm like, okay. They're like, well, last month, I was like traveling a lot for work. And it's like, Girl, I don't give a fuck, you know? Are you dating? Like, because what I'm trying to get a read is like, how much are you participating in? Desire? Yeah, that's what I'm trying to read. I don't care. Why

No, it's so sad when they think they're being tested. It's like you, nobody scoring anything right now. Like, go, there's no bad grade here. Just like, let's talk for real.

Like, imagine if your doctor had said, hey, I want to talk a little bit about what you do. Outside the drip, you know, like, how are you living? What do you what do you up to our house

should stress on how we say that though, because when I left, when I went to Mexico, and I decided at that point, I was taking, like self injections. I don't remember humera. Anyway, dental care, this isn't fucking plugging drugs. But I was like, I think I'm good. Like, after a bit, it became difficult to get the drug. And I'm like, I think I'm good. I think I'm going to try to go off of it altogether. And I called her obviously, because I'm not just going to cold turkey. And she said, Well, I'm just concerned because nothing's changed. And I literally was like, everything has changed. Every single thing in my life has changed. So with all due respect, and you're an amazing doctor, I'm going to go for it on this one, because my entire life style has changed, mostly. And I think that I could really do without it. And you know, that was almost seven years ago. And I'm not here to say like, any weird woowoo shit of you can, you know, heal yourself or get the medicine, but it's somewhere in between, you know, you have a choice. And I think a lot of times, especially with chronic illness, when I heard this is chronic, my brain was like, Okay, so I'm just in this forever. And that's it. Yeah, period, I have no control over anything, I just need to be what the doctors tell me to be and go. And it's just like, I kind of like gave up and I was so tired and weak. And I understand what people do, whether it's medical or emotional, I understand why we get so exhausted that we're like, Fuck it just somebody gave me the easy way, whether that's a controlling person, whether that's just listening to doctors at face value all the time, because they, they're doctors, and not listening to yourself and not following your own kind of guidance. There's, I get it, but it feels so good to take control of your life to the best of your ability in a healthy way. Yeah,

it really does. Like I learned, I had a big reminder of that when some shit went down with my family, I guess around two years ago now or a year and a half ago. And I was like, I need to recollect all the pieces of myself, I've dotted around down, and I need to take the reins of my life pack, you know, and like, figure out, because I think that, like, I know, for me, whenever I'm trying to control something externally, it means I need to control something internally, that like, often if I get really sure that like something outside of me is the answer to my problems. It means I'm not addressing something that is within my control. Does that make sense? Yes. And so like that, for me has been a real lesson of like, where to take control and where you are, you know, and there's some saying that's like, you're 100% responsible for 100% of your feelings 100% of the time. And I think about that a lot because I'm like, really are and I mean, that's something they like teach people in like couples counseling, so that like you're not though, you know, like, I know, I'm already like looking for the way to get out of it. I'm like,

they hurt my feelings. So I don't know about that.

When I threw that book because you hurt my feelings. I don't think that wasn't 100% My fault. But I think about that in regards to control that so often if I'm wanting to control something outside of being like, it's such a, it reminds me to come back to like you can only control you and like That is something we don't want to look at, you know, like, whether it's your example of like, you can only control you you can't control when you're going to have a flare. You can't control like, you know, like, what your medical, like, you can't control any of that, like, I'm dealing with that now with my own diagnosis and stuff. And it's like, yeah, I cannot control all of that. But I know that when I was drinking a cookie dough latte this morning, and it was delicious. And it tasted like Haagen DAAS, which had been melted, that even though I can drink the whole thing, don't give the shit that cookie dough latte, police weren't gonna show up. That like, there was I knew about halfway through I was like, it's not in your best interest to finish this. Like, it just you're not going to feel good as like, it's just, I can just taste it, it's too high sugar, it's too high fat, you're not gonna feel good. This is not the way we start our day. Like, you're just not going to feel good. You know. And it's like, that is in my control. You know, like that is listening to that voice. And choosing for me, it's harder to choose like discipline, sometimes in it is self indulgence. And it's like, you can choose and go. There's something inside me saying, don't don't drink the rest of this. Or you can go like, I'm baby and I'm allowed to drink whatever I want. You know, which one are you gonna listen to? It's like, Will when you feel crummy later? Like, which voice Do you wish you would listen to like, not party pants McGee. Like that voice is Oh, like, I know, that voice is so loud for me that I have to be like, relaxed party. Like it's okay. Like, not everything needs, you know, to have that. Like, I don't always need to be chasing the fun or whatever. But I'm curious for you, because I think you're really good at positive control. You know, like you're really good at, you know, I think controlling yourself and things like that. What do you think about relinquishing control? Oh, um,

well, I hate it.

Well, first, number one, I gotta say,

I hate she's a bitch.

I'm not my favorite. No,

I really want to, and I think I'm getting better day by day. I I'm not a controlling mother and I never planned to be. But I watch myself very carefully. And I'm always aware of or try to be aware most of the time about spreading my stuff around. So and in not a positive way. You know, I want my kids to be safe. I want like my family to be protected. I want to feel good in my body. I want other people to feel good in their bodies. But I it's not. I'm not like running the show here. This is not what I say goes. And so I've just learned whether it's things I don't necessarily want him to eat. Okay, this is a perfect, really silly example. We went to a friend's the other day, and she had goldfish for her kid. And miles never seen goldfish. And he was like, what a goldfish. And there was a moment where I'm like, we're gonna let him eat the goldfish. Like, he can eat the fish. And then I'm like, Nina, he's a four year old. This is a rite of passage, let him eat the fucking goldfish. Like, it's goldfish. It's fine. And my friend was like, enjoy your preservatives, children. And I was like, totally. I'm cool. I'm cool as a cucumber. But it's these little things in cooler

in my life.

Who and I'm thinking, is this is this worth it? Absolutely not. And I do that, you know, something that's helped me a lot that I would really offer to people which is going to sound so annoying. I'm going to preface this by this is not a hot take. This is not something you've never heard before. But I'm going to try and remind us my what's helped me a lot in becoming more controlled in a positive way. And also releasing control is learning how to breathe properly. And understand that when things kick up in my body and I feel tension and I feel maybe a twinge of anxiety or I'm not breathing properly I it's it's almost like an there's not enough oxygen getting to my brain or something and, and my belly and I need to redistribute it so that I can find a little bit more calmness, a little more evenness, so that I can make a decision from that place instead of the place of fear or trying to control it in a negative way. So yeah, that that's helpful but I it I've really, really worked hard to work on the positive and release a lot of the negative aspects of of control, for sure. And I do every day. I mean, it's a constant conversation I have with myself of just and food I've never had weird stuff with food as far as like being restrictive or any anything, but I do have to be really careful about what I eat. And I always have to be and I can't. And, and I eat very well, but some of the stuff that I that is really healthy, my body doesn't like either. So you also have to be in constant conversation about that. And that kind of sucks sometimes. But you know it because I want to just be easy breezy a lot of the time because I'm, I feel like I have so many not controlling behaviors, but I'm very, like, you know, I have, I have shade a little bit control, I think and so when when he's like, Okay, I'm gonna make this for dinner. And I'm like, I'm sorry, but like, I really can't eat that, you know. And it's something perfectly wonderful and healthy. But I have to kind of get over that ego piece of it of like, I want to be just like, cool, easy, chill girl, but I don't want to feel pain either. So, you know, I think it's day by day, and just figuring out when I'm gripping too tight, and for what reason

I think that that's the important part for any of us. Like, if you generally, if you're trying to control things, I would invite you to ask yourself, why, you know, just why, what's up? Are you scared? Is it because, you know, like, to Nina's example, about the food, like, that's, it's pretty, it's pretty fair to want to control what you're eating so that you don't get sick or, or in pain, you know? That's pretty normal. It's like, is it an anxiety about that, you know, like, all these different things, I think. I think sometimes we resist looking at stuff because we're like, Oh, I've heard being controlling is bad, so I don't want to be controlling and then it's like it stops there. And it's like, we're all controlling there every single person on earth has a moment where they are trying to control something you know, like, like look at look at a little kid with like an animal you know, like we all want to control something you know, I love when toddlers when I'm like bend pets to their will and are like no I said sit like that. I'm like, literally falls

loose here. And she's like, don't do that. Lucy don't like she's fine. Just let her like live he's like don't go there. Lucy don't like as she's she's literally eating so don't eat that Lucy like he's still he's obsessed with all

funny yeah. Oh my god, he looked she when she came over and knocked one of the palm trees of of the art installation dyno piece over she was like, he just looked inside so deeply that I got a little glimpse of what he's going to be like, as an old man. It was like,

he's no joke with that. It's like he was just so

it was like, I'm not mad at you. At least Lucy I'm disappointed. Like it was so funny. But that don't like it. Especially if you have a history of trauma in you know, in your life. Like, don't feel bad about it. Just look at it. Just ask yourself when you do it, where does it come up for you? Where do you either like maybe feel the desire to control? Or where are you susceptible to being controlled? You know, like, I know for me when I went into eating disorder recovery like they gave me a bunch of suggestions that they don't try to control you because a big way you're trying to control life in your feelings is via food. But they were like we recommend like these things as a part of like your healing treatment. And one of those things was like no no women's magazines like none of dire you know, thing unhealthy about them. Yeah, no, because they're they're so great. I don't know if you realize this because every women's magazine still needs to tell us you should be wiping from front to back. Like that's still breaking news. Vagina.

Oh my god, that is the fucking most amazing thing I've ever heard early on like that. Only. I can get more info. I can women's magazine it's or they're probably still trying to teach us how to give blowjobs

Oh, I think so. Yeah. Like,

he was an amazing man. Fuck off.

I mean, it was amazing to me though. Like you said to your point about taking control, me deciding to take control and be more mindful of what I was allowing in to my world through that lens was so illuminating for me of like, I need you and it's like a domino effect. I think yeah, of being controlling in this positive way of like, you know what, I'm really susceptible to those headlines that say like, lose 10 pounds blah, or the latest in you know, like, I'm super susceptible to this. i It's all diet mentality. It's all negative, like blah, blah, blah. Ah, that like giving, like taking the control of like, what I was taking in from, like a media perspective was like so illuminating to me that if I hadn't thought of like, these different things of like, okay, this issue I'm dealing with, like, you know, eating disorders, or disordered eating comes a lot from like a desire to control. Okay, so controls in the room, and then I went down, and it helped me like, figure out all this different stuff that like working with that, you know, made a lot get better for me, and made a lot feel better. So I would just like, if you if you're so afraid, sometimes like, well, I don't want to be controlling, or I don't want to, I think if you're not looking at that stuff, it's probably leaking out other places in your life, you know,

sometimes it's like, when you grip it so tight, you just, you you become it, you know, like, yeah, just, you may not see it, and there's nothing like wrong with you for not seeing it. But if you took a kind, gentle survey, and I bet you people in your life might be like, well, in this area, there might be some control things happening, because we just, we can't run from our shit, whatever it is, right control is going to happen. We're human beings, we're going to try to, to be safe and to feel safe in some way or, or control. And if it's not positive, it can, you know, easily become negative. And I think it's not just that simple. But I do believe that there's a domino effect of when you start to create your environment and take it really seriously and treat yourself really well then stuff starts to fall away that maybe has, you know, the negative kind of aspects where people like you, if you treat yourself really well, you have less patience for people who don't?

Yeah, the more you have your own back, I think, is some of what you're saying. Like, yeah, 100% the clearer it is when other times, but like, Yeah, but I think what I think about it all the time is

how do you talk to yourself? Are you like, get it together, bitch lose some weight? Or are you? You know, like, that's probably not, like, doesn't feel good? Or like, Why do we feel this way? Or what? You know, it doesn't have to be this weird, you know, nerdy like, conversation, you can just talk to you like your your best friend.

Yeah, talk to you, like you, you know, like, you don't have to suddenly don your like therapist hat. Literally. Like, I literally talked to myself, and I'm like, what up with that? I might get that. Like, what or like, or I forget what it's called, there's a thing. It's called, like self witnessing, where you also use your own name, which helps you like create distance, where I'll go like, that was kind of wild. Anna, what was up with that? You know? And then I will answer mice. It's the weirdest thing I start doing that actually is effective for me. Yeah. But if I'll be like, you know, myself like that, too. Yeah. And it's helped me learn how to communicate. Like, I was showing Nina a bunch of creative stuff one day, and I in the email, I said to her, I was like, if you hate it, it's fine. But you need to be really nice to be when you told me that because it helped me because I was like, Why? Because he even in my head when I was like writing or something. I felt myself like really gripping tight. And I was like, I'm, I'm trying to avoid a situation where she hurts my feelings. Not that you ever hurt my feelings. It was more on my you know, like, it was more my fear, you know, I was projecting a lot of shit. And then I was like, Well, why don't you just be honest, be like, it's totally fine if you don't want to do it, because this is a partnership, but also, you I am sensitive. So be nice. If you don't, you know, I'm like, That's a fair compromise. But I had to talk to myself to figure out like, what was the thing you know, like to get myself to like, release the grip, I'm like, Just be honest, you're gonna be sensitive about this, you know, which I find is also like, my hot tip about control is often if you are really gripping something, just be honest. But even if that's to yourself of like, I really hope this, this works out, or I really hope I get this or whatever.

Right? Like a worst case scenario. I'm a big fan of that. Like, what are you? What are you the most scared? I go? Yeah, go right for that. You know, but you know, little by little helps, too. Yeah, I think. Lastly, I would just say that any body awareness is helpful, even if it's like your feet, you know, even if you a lot I was teaching this morning, and I'm like, let's just take a minute and touch our feet. Just and I'm not again, not in like a weird way where we sit there for an hour, but make contact. Where are you? Where are your feet on the ground? Do what do they feel like? Take them take a moment to just center herself because we say these things all the time. And I know in movement too, I'm like find your center and I said this today on the recording on the membership, I said, What does that even mean? Find your center. It's, it can be breath, it can be your actual center it can be your soul. Like there's so many center centers you know that you it's like what do you how do you define it? But font coming back to this grounded rooted place helps us to have easier gentler conversations with ourselves and then it's just a more fluid way to move through life and understand ourselves. And really that's the goal. You know, we can't get anywhere if we don't understand ourselves.

Yeah. Good boy. Yeah, we truly cannot get anywhere if we don't understand ourselves. It's true.

Yeah, you know, so little by little brick by brick. Another Brick in the Wall, you know, thanks for just building this house with us today was a labor of love. Toodles

bye.

That's all for today's episode.

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