Welcome to episode 174 of the Business Development podcast and today we're chatting with the entrepreneurs therapist, Patricia Bathory.

It is an absolutely incredible episode and you are not going to want to miss it.

Stick with us.

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Welcome to the Business Development podcast and now your expert host, Kelly Kennedy.

Hello.

Welcome to episode 174 of the Business Development podcast and my gosh, do we have an absolute rock star for you today.

Today we are bringing you Patricia Bathory, MBA, MacPCC.

Patricia is a dynamic entrepreneur and seasoned psychotherapist who has dedicated over a decade to understanding the intricacies of interpersonal dynamics.

As the author of building Relationships to achieve success and make a lasting impact, she expertly bridges the worlds of business and psychology.

Patricia's unique blend of experience as the founder and general manager of an import export business, combined with her practice as a psychotherapist equips her with unparalleled insights into the personal and professional challenges faced by today's leaders.

Educated in Canada, born in Brazil, and with strong ties to the United States, Patricia's diverse background enriches her approach to fostering meaningful relationships and achieving success.

Patricia's compelling speaking engagements captivate audiences with topics ranging from intellectual humility to the pursuit of existential purpose.

She advocates for the transformative power of relationships, believing that strong connections are the bedrock to lasting success.

With advanced training and psychoanalysis and family dynamics, Patricia emphasizes the importance of community and collaboration in both personal and professional realms.

As a beacon of wisdom in the fields of entrepreneurship and psychotherapy, Patricia Bathory inspires individuals to harness the power of relationships to create a profound and enduring impact.

Patricia, it's an absolute honor to have you on the show today.

Oh, thank you.

That was a beautiful intro.

I'm like, who is this?

But I want to meet that person.

Well, let me just say after reading your book, it is well, well earned.

And you know, we chatted about this before the show, but I honestly can't believe that you were able to cram so much information on relationships into one book and, you know, as a huge advocate of relationships and a connection builder on the business development podcast, great, great work.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you.

It makes me very happy that you took the time to read it and that you enjoyed it.

That's definitely the best news I can possibly get.

Today made my day.

Made my day.

Yeah.

You know, it's funny, I really, I have a little bit of a love hate relationship with amazing authors like yourself because honestly, I hate interviewing amazing authors without reading their books.

So I do try to read at least one of their books ahead of every interview.

But my gosh, I think I've probably read more in the last year than I've read in a really long time.

That's, that's a good side effect of your work then.

That's, you know, you cannot complain about that.

It kind of is, yeah, I'm getting crazy with lots of great insights, for sure.

You know, that's, somebody asked me, like, how was it to write the book?

I'm like, you know what?

As, as tough as it was, one of the side effects, you know, one of the things that I had to do was read a lot.

So I think while I was writing that book, I read 20 books as well.

I'm like, this is not a bad thing to do, you know, write a book.

That means you have to read and research.

So it kind of, it's not a bad, bad thing to have to do.

Yeah.

And, you know, we talked about this before, but it's your very first book, and it is incredible, incredibly well written, well done.

And I want to spend some time on that because I know we have lots of entrepreneurs listening who aspire to write books and are maybe like, you have an amazing business background, but, you know, just never really took the step or never knew how to start.

So I think maybe some insights on that would be really cool.

But before we get into that today, you know, who is Patricia Bathory?

How did you end up on this journey?

You're, you are originally from Brazil?

Yes, I am.

I was born in Brazil.

I actually come from a multicultural family.

My dad's Brazilian, my mom's Slovakhe.

How did they meet?

That's a whole podcast in itself.

So the two of them met in Brazil.

We were born in Brazil.

It's me and my brother and my sister.

I lived there until I was 14 and then moved to Edmonton.

Now why did you move to Edmonton?

Well, my mom, who's Slovak, has a sister who immigrated to Edmonton, so that's how we ended up in Edmonton, lived there, went to high school, into Ainley.

So I'm from your hometown.

I'm excited to be talking to you, actually.

So I went to Ainley.

I went to the U of A.

Got a bachelor of science from the U of A, and my MBA from the U of A, and ended up marrying a Brazilian.

Right?

Like, the world kind of goes around.

I met a brazilian, very nice guy, you know, smooth, and I'm like, okay.

Fell for him really hard.

So that was 30 years ago.

That's when we started dating and then moved back to Brazil.

Married him, had two kids.

Then we.

You know, being the canadian lover that I am, I love this country.

I love everything about Canada.

I wanted my kids to have the sprinkle of Canadia on.

On them.

The.

The culture, the values, the people.

So pestered my husband until he agreed to move to Canada.

So we've been back here for the last seven years.

Now we're in Calgary, though I still cheer for the Oilers.

So, you know, I have not.

I have not, you know, in the playoffs, so it's all good.

One yesterday.

That's all a great thing.

Oh, man.

I was on the edge of my seat all night.

What is that?

I'm like, oh, my God.

I'm gonna have a heart attack here.

It's like, I wonder how the ER is.

But anyway, so.

So, yeah, so, been here, back for the last seven years, and loving every minute of it.

Maybe not the winter so much, but, yeah.

Oh, man.

I was gonna say, I think there's probably a lot of Canadians who aspire to leave to Brazil.

And people ask me, they're like, so what made you move to Canada?

And, you know, I.

Straight faced, I'm like, oh, the weather.

And it's funny because people take a step back, and they're like, does she know?

Right?

Like, do we tell her?

I'm like, no, I'm joking.

You know, I'm like, no, people.

And then when I tell people why I moved here, my love for Canada, my love for this country, for how progressive we are, for how our values, and the fact that we're so multicultural, so accepting of different cultures.

And when I tell people this, I actually.

I think I am one of those people who inspire Canadians to love their country because I love it so much.

So it's.

Yeah, I love to be here, and.

You know, we talked about this briefly before the show, but I think it's such a perspective that I've had from multiple guests on this show of how amazing Canada is as a country and it's like I'm, you know, I take it for granted, right?

I was born in Edmonton.

I grew up just outside of the city.

We now live back in the city.

Like, I have not ventured far from home.

And it's like, okay, yeah, we got these beautiful mountains, you know, 3 hours west.

We got, like you said, calgary, a very beautiful city, just not too far, you know, south as well.

But it's like, I don't know, we just take it for granted.

Totally, right?

You know, what is it about Canada compared to Brazil that, that really opened your eyes to this place?

I think we end up falling once we live here, we end up falling into that rut of complaining about the cold.

So it's really cold.

It's really cold.

It's really cold.

It's like, yes, I agree, it is really cold.

You know, speak to the lady that in December, I'm like, out of here.

I'm like, kids, send for yourselves.

I'm out of here.

And I do.

I leave the country for a month or 2, December, January.

I just find it difficult to be here.

Aside from that, Canada is a country of opportunities.

It accepts everyone.

It accepts a different points of view.

I find that we have evolved more than most when it comes to understanding that people have different points of view.

Trying to listen to even our polarization is different from the polarization we see in the US and in other countries.

For instance, I think we have.

When I went to school, one of the things I learned, I remember Washington, you have to have your argument, but you also have to have the counter argument.

And I remember that being fundamental in my growing up.

And one of these canadian values that I find is, it's okay to have your argument, but you need to be able to see what the other side sees.

I was part of debate for a while, and, you know, you didn't know until the debate minute which side you're going to debate, so you needed to prepare both sides.

And I find that that is, is so rich.

And, you know, I'm speaking about this experience in school, but I find that as a community, that's how we are.

And maybe because of the influence of so much immigration and we are an immigrant society, I mean, you know, a lot of times, like, we'll sit around and I'll have one canadian friend who's like, maybe two generations canadian, and then the third's already gone.

And they sit there and I'm like, they're a minority.

And it's like, what about minorities?

I'm like, no, you're a minority, like a Canadian born and raised, that you are minority, Kelly, not me.

Right.

Like, so, yeah, yeah.

And, you know, we talked a little bit about essentially the polarization and differentiation and, you know, I would say a good prime minister or a good leader, the goal should always be to unite the country.

Always.

Right.

And I think with Canada or United States or any of these really large countries, that becomes incredibly hard because they're going over, you know, 4000, 5000 km, um, or a lot longer across the entire country.

It's very hard to unite people, for instance, on the east coast and the west coast because they live completely different lives.

They grow up completely differently.

It's got to be really hard.

And I think one of the things that we really struggle with in entrepreneurship sometimes, or just as people, is how can we create connection with people that we maybe don't share the same understanding or values in?

And then it creates like a them versus us, even though that's not really true.

The most dangerous four letter word, them.

Because the minute it's them, it's unreachable.

You can't get to them.

It's just too far away.

They're different.

It's them.

And I agree, that's one of the biggest challenges for leaders in companies.

Of course, prime minister is just the leader of a bigger country, of a bigger company.

Yes.

And I think I, you know, when I was looking at one of these stats, there's always going to be a part of people who will always be that polarized and they will disagree no matter what.

Right.

So for those, it's not those people you speak to.

Some people will always agree with you, and then those people you don't need to speak to again, because they're just your fans.

It's the middle people that you need to cater to, the moderate, the ones that you need to convince, the ones that you need to explain what your ideas are about.

And, you know, even if you disagree, this is my rationale, because if you're.

Well, if you make decisions, I'm going to talk as a leader here for your business.

If you're making decisions for the company to move forward, even if you don't agree, even if everybody doesn't agree, there needs to be a rationale why you're taking that decision.

So explaining, making sure people understand what is the method behind the madness of your decisions, I find that that is very helpful.

And of course, of course, as an employee, to understand that understanding doesn't mean agreeing, but understanding should open space for you to at least then become okay I'm on board because I understand why we're doing this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, and I think the problem with business is that we live in a time where polarization, whether it be social issues, government issues, belief systems, whatever you want to put it, is starting to really interfere or cause businesses to have to make choices that, in my opinion, they shouldn't have to make.

Right?

Like, in my mind, most businesses are there to cater to other people.

Right?

Who are you to cater to one person over another person?

At the end of the day, isn't your business designed to provide value to the world?

I think we need to get back to that.

I think we need to get away from this polar polarization in business, whether that be a cultural issue, whether that be, you know, how you feel about your government, right?

Like, at the end of the day, business should be neutral.

And, you know, I try to advocate for that as much as possible.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't know how successful we're going to be in that, because one thing that we see is, well, generation zed coming in and they are engaged as much as they are aligned with the values and the principles of the company.

So what we find is that this new generation coming in, unless they are connected to your values, to leadership, to the purpose, unless there's a purpose that they're working towards and they're aligned in that, that's the only way they're going to engage.

Okay.

Okay.

I agree with you, though.

I think all companies should have purpose.

I'm just, I guess my, my challenge with that is, is that does the purpose really have to align with a political system or with, um, you know, a social charge of the moment?

I, you know, I agree with.

So two things.

One is what I agree or disagree with, and the other is, what's the trend, right?

So what I agree with is business is business.

You want to buy a pen, you buy a pen from me or from you, it doesn't matter.

It's a pen.

And what you're saying is it should.

That's how it should be.

You need a pen, you go buy the best pen there is.

Sure.

So I agree with that in a fundamental level.

The thing is, we are the dinosaurs now, right?

Like we're middle aged.

Like I.

Right.

Like we're.

We're.

We're not the ones who are really buying.

Well, we still are because still the, the purchasing power is in our hands.

But really, the generation coming in, they're like, okay, you're buying a pen.

Oh, hang on.

But you are nothing.

You don't have diversity.

A good diversity plan in your company, or you only will hire the whole white male sis, whatever.

Like, that's all you hire.

Then I'm not going to buy a pen from you.

I'm going to buy a pen from someone else.

Is that right or wrong?

I don't know.

But is that a trend?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Because if you think about that, that is actually what has pushed people to get better.

Right?

Because if you're not better, like, we had a.

I don't know.

Well, you didn't read this because this is a very big brazilian news.

Somebody's dog got shipped by mistake.

So they were in Sao Paulo.

They were gonna go west.

By mistake.

The dog get shipped northwest.

So for three and a half hours, he's in the airport for a while.

It's super hot, right?

Hot and humid.

Somebody gave him some water, but it was some water, not enough water.

And then the dog gets shipped again.

So it was a nine hour trip as opposed to two and a half hour trip.

The dog dies.

Of course.

It's a huge thing about the airlines and, you know, and this whole making a big deal, that's what makes them become better, right?

Sure.

So again, I agree with you.

We should just sell pens, and we should not need to position ourselves for everything that we do or sell, especially our services.

But ultimately, people buy into the idea, not just the product.

And that is the trend.

And so for us, I think it's.

It's a matter of, okay, let's understand this trend, and even if not agreeing, understanding it, so that then we can position ourselves as good leaders to move forward.

Amazing.

So I want to spend some time on this just because I know there's lots of businesses are like, what do we do?

Right?

Like, how do we play this game that we, frankly, don't even understand?

Like, you know, like you said, we're middle aged people.

For the most part.

We're focused on.

On moving the needle.

We know we got families, we got other things that we're thinking about to try to think about the whole paradigm of everything else that's kind of influencing the day to day business can be very challenging.

What is your recommendation for businesses to do when it comes down to social issues or any type of alignments?

So I think, again, if we want to be.

So I'm going to think as an entrepreneur right now, as a successful business, what do I need to do?

I need to hire talent, retain talent.

So that's the number one issue people have today, is retaining talent.

Because people like you and I, we will work for the money and we will work for the title.

Simple as that.

That's Gen X.

That's millennials.

So we'll do some of that.

Now, Gen Y is like, I don't even care for the money that much.

Like, I will make 25% less.

That's a big pay cut.

I don't know if I'd be willing to take a quarter pay cut, right?

So they will take a pay cut because they want to work for a weekday, four day weeks.

They want the company.

They want to be proud of the company they work for.

They want to be.

They want the company they work for to be engaged with more important world problems or to be.

To be politicized like that.

To be, what do you call it?

To have a stance on things which what you're saying is like, we shouldn't, shoulda, woulda, coulda.

But really, this is what we're seeing.

Now, you, as a business owner, you might not agree with that, but this is what the reality is.

So if you, as a business owner, if you want to hire talent and retain talent, they will only come if you provide to them a clear purpose.

If you provide to them that we are aligned with these higher values, that we do respect people as equals, right?

That you have autonomy, that we will be meritocratic.

So I think that's what it is.

It's about, do you want to succeed or do you want to be right?

Do you want to be right or do you want to be successful and happy?

Right?

Because right is, well, in my point of view, we shouldn't worry about all these things.

It should be about selling pension.

Your opinion is yours.

You can be right because it is your opinion, entitled to it.

But fact is, do you want to be happy and successful?

Because if you do, you will need to adapt.

Well, I think it's funny because it doesn't really matter on what side you fall on.

At the end of the day, you're alienating customers.

How is that good business?

That's where I struggle with it.

Right?

I struggle with it from the standpoint of I want to do good in this world and I don't really care who I do good for.

At the end of the day, like you said, we're all human, we're all equals.

We all deserve the same benefits of life and business.

And so I do struggle with it from that standpoint of I don't want to alienate anybody because I think everybody deserves opportunity.

And it doesn't matter if you pick a side.

You are alienating.

Absolutely.

You got to take your pick.

What sides are we picking here?

I guess what I'm kind of suggesting here is that if you were to pick any side, if you're going to support maybe left leaning companies or you're going to support, right leading companies, it doesn't really matter what side you're on.

If you're going to be public about that as a company and say this is what we support, are you not alienating at least part of your customers?

You know what?

I absolutely agree and I don't think you should position yourself as nothing.

Absolutely not.

I think the positioning has to do with values and morals.

So my company does not tolerate discrimination.

So if you're left or right, if you come in, if you discriminate against whatever it is that you see in my company, that's a no.

That.

So it is about.

It's not about left or right, but it's about elevated, elevated equal thinking.

This canadian value that I speak about so much, it's about having these values or being a very small mind where you're discriminating where you are, you know, the bullying at work, the toxicity, that kind of stuff.

So it doesn't mean who's doing it.

So it's not left and right for sure.

Like, I don't think publicly, publicly positioning yourself as a business is necessary or good.

Right.

It doesn't matter who I'm voting for.

I remember I used to teach this parenting after separation classes for Alberta.

So if you get a divorce in Alberta before COVID it was mandatory that you go to these classes.

Now remember, I'm talking about the importance of children, how to put children first and how conflict second.

You know, don't hate your co parent more than you love your child kind of thing.

And I remember there was one guy, he's like, who do you vote for?

Who do you vote for?

I'm like, that is absolutely relevant.

He goes, no, it is relevant because depending who you vote for, that's how much I'm listening to you or not.

So I'm sitting here going, wow, that's not the point.

I'm telling you to love your child more than you love conflict.

So that is the position I think we need to have what is right and what is wrong.

Not if I'm voting this or that.

It doesn't matter.

I know it's crazy.

It's crazy.

You know, even in Canada, you know, the level of polarization that has happened, you know, I would say in the last ten years, it's and I don't know whether that's just like the advent or of social media and the way that social media has really showed up in our world, right?

So we're seeing it all the time, but it's wild.

And I think we've really lost the art to agree to disagree.

But you know what it is when you talk about social media?

Kelly Aldouse this is the one gripe about social media that I have.

Social media.

I'm talking pretty much everything.

If you look in your feed, the world is like you, right?

Like, even if you are a completely off the wall outlier, your social feed is going to make you feel like your position is right.

Like, everybody agrees with you, because what does AI do if you spend a lot of time looking at connected?

My book, guess what's going to happen?

It's going to be showing in your social feed.

Stuff about Patricia and Patricia and all this.

So I've said it's like, oh, man, Patricia might be trending.

Patricia's like the most popular lady in the world.

And it's like, no, I'm not.

It's just because you like me, I end up showing up in your feet all the time.

But if you don't like me, I'm not popping anywhere.

If you don't agree with any of the stuff I'm saying, I'm never going to show up.

So even music, if you like this certain music, it only shows you that social media only shows you the stuff you agree with.

So you end up having a view of the world that is very limited.

And I think that's what the danger is when we end up thinking that the world is limited to what we believe, to what we think, and to what we value, because we don't get access to the other side because the algorithm doesn't give it to us.

And then we become dumber and unaware.

And then when you go out in the street and somebody says, no, I think that as opposed to this, then you're shocked and you're horrified and you're like, you must be wrong.

It's like, no, it's actually, half of the other world thinks that.

So let's go get educated.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's, it's actually an education problem at the end of the day.

Ignorance.

That's at the root of polarization.

Ignorance is the root of discrimination.

Ignorance, right?

If you don't want to be polarized, I'll tell you this.

Let's say you vote liberal or you vote conservative, and you're not even, like in the middle, you're like, more towards the right or the left.

Start reading about the other side, because ultimately they're not all wrong.

Right.

Like, there is something to be said about the values of the left, right?

About this, everybody's equal.

We should all accept.

And it's great.

And there is something to be said about the fiscal responsibility of the right.

So really, where do you vote?

I'm like, a little bit of each.

Like, give me some of each.

Because that's what it is for business people.

Why are they.

Why do business people tend to be more conservative?

Because fiscal responsibility is a big value.

Yes.

Right.

So it is simple as that.

You can tell how somebody votes by really asking what they do.

Right?

Are you.

Oh, you're a business person.

Okay, let me guess.

Let me guess who you voted for.

Well, and especially in Canada, right?

Especially in Canada.

It is.

It is really hard.

It is really, really hard, because I agree with you completely.

I think 99.999% of people fit in the middle.

But the system, and it doesn't matter whether you're in us or Canada, the system is somewhat designed that the only parties that are going to win are hard one way or hard the other.

The moderate parties, they don't typically have a chance.

And it's really sad because it's like, I think most of the time, those are the parties that would win given the chance.

But, you know, but again, let's go back to social media and news.

What makes the news?

A moderate approach like this conversation, Kelly, is not going to make it to headlines.

You know what would if I started calling you this and that and throwing tomatoes at you and just being outraged and like, and say some crazy, you know, off the wall things to the left or to the right that'll make headlines.

And that is going to pop everywhere.

And then for extreme answer or extreme accusations or provocations, there are extreme answers.

And then all of a sudden, here we go.

That's what we see, right?

Yeah.

And like you said, most people would like to be more moderate.

I think we are.

Human beings are good.

Right?

We're moderate people.

If you get a one on one, you rarely get people attacking each other.

Of course, there's a percentage of people that do.

But that's a psychological problem.

Most reasonable people.

And there's something I really love, which is I heard once, it's reasonable people disagree about a reasonable amount of things, a reasonable amount of times.

So knowing that for a fact, then all you have to do is go into these conversations with an open mind to try to understand what is it that they're saying so that you can come out of these conversations, if anything, instructed, not threatened.

Yeah.

And it's like so much of that is based on values that you've grown up with or have been ingrained in you, or maybe you didn't even choose.

And I think that that's really interesting, because depending on where you grow up, you get values from your community.

And I think one of the challenges that we have is when something goes against those values, we just automatically shut down to listening to the other side and really having that open.

Like, I think it takes a lot of work, a hell of a lot more work, to have an open mind and allow a value that doesn't necessarily match with who you are inside to sit and spend some time to even lead to something else.

I don't know.

How do you do that?

Like, how do you do that on a regular basis?

Cause that's kind of, you know, that was a big part of your book, was talking about, how do you disagree in a healthy way.

But I think some of the challenge that we're facing is when we are feeling that.

That I don't agree with that there's an anxious feeling inside of us that shuts us down to being open to that other conversation.

How do we change that?

I went to get a sticky because this is on my wall.

Okay.

This is from Alan Welles, and he talks about how much easier it is to have fixed opinions about things.

He says, what we can't alter, we don't have to worry about.

So the enlargement of necessity is a measure of economy in psychic housekeeping.

So if you already have your opinions, this is bad, this is good, it's so economical, you don't have to think, right.

I go in, you know, pink is good, blue is bad.

It's simple as that.

I come out.

I don't have to question.

It's a hard reality.

It's difficult if somebody comes in and challenges that, and you have to think about that.

And this is the one thing I love most about the therapeutic process.

When I get my clients coming in and they're ready, whether because something happened or because they just have that need to enlarge what they see, and they need to start questioning these truths.

And I think the truly enlightened person, the more elevated business person or human being, is the one that has less amounts of truth, right?

Oh, I have my values.

I have my truths.

I'm like, yes, but it doesn't mean you can't challenge them, because when you know better, you can do better.

So why not constantly challenge, right?

Like, things we're ignorant about, we tend to dislike or push away.

But let's get educated on these things.

What's your position?

You know, some things I don't have a position on.

How do you position yourself with the whole Middle east problem?

I am ignorant.

I am very sorry.

I cannot position myself.

Of course there's the feeling that you want them.

Like, I want to say this, or I want to say that I will not.

Because if you don't know, how can you position yourself?

So unless you're going to seriously get into something and get that knowledge, and sometimes you will get that knowledge and you still are not able to position yourselves because there's something to be said.

Again, I'm not going to polarize because to both sides there is something.

So it is that ability.

Yeah.

And I agree.

Like, no matter what the conflict, no matter what the challenge, both sides probably are right in one way or another and wrong in one way or another.

Depends on the point of view, right?

Every point of view is a view from a point.

Every point of view is a view from a point.

So, I mean, imagine, let's talk about our playoffs again.

Can you imagine the hockey ref choosing not to use all the different perspectives from the cameras and just calling the goals from his point of view?

From here, the puck went in.

Well, guess what?

From there, if you're actually there from that camera, the puck did not go in.

It looked like it did, but it didn't.

So getting what other people see, that's the way to get a better perspective on everything and just makes you wiser.

It makes you richer in your opinions.

It just makes you more educated.

Really?

Yeah, it feels, and I know that there's a lot of people who would say it feels really hard to get that external perspective and receive it right.

And, you know, I mean, I'm going to say I've struggled with perspective because I believe that I was right on something because I was born.

I was born that way, or I was told that that is the way it is and the way that it should be from my parents or from trusted people.

And then later in life had to reflect on that.

And I remember that being a really hard thing.

And I did change a lot of my opinions after thinking about them, after meeting people, after having, like you said, discussion and essentially meeting people with a different opinion or a different way of life.

And I was like, you know what?

There's nothing wrong with that.

But at the time, I believed it was wrong until I had a chance to experience it.

So I think so much of it, like you said, is just ignorance.

We just don't know.

And if you spend more time getting to know a different perspective, I think you'll find that you do align more with it than you'd think.

I.

Kelly, you said something honestly, like you said something so powerful there, which is, I've changed my mind.

Yeah.

Right.

You were able to say that what I thought then is not what I think now.

And I think that's the number one fear of people, is to say, maybe I was wrong.

You know what?

Maybe when I thought that this issue meant that or when I thought this was a core value of mine, I I changed.

I see that there are more important things.

I see that there is a better way better way of doing things.

The problem is, let's think of the profile.

Let's profile leaders here.

Leaders are always right.

Leaders tend to be type a's.

They are assertive.

They are used to being right.

They're leading for them to then be able to be in that position where I don't know.

Oh, hang on, Kelly.

So, you're.

What you're saying then, is that.

What I'm saying is not right.

And you know what?

I think you are right.

And I was saying something that wasn't really jiving.

So the ability, and I think that's a primordial quality, is to be able to say, you know what?

I changed my mind.

I've changed my mind because now I see things differently.

And people a lot of times, feel threatened by it, and that's why they dig their heels and they sustain a position even sometimes when they're not even 100% with it.

So it's about the winning.

It's not about the position anymore.

So, what are you fighting about in divorce, we see a lot of this.

Like, what are you fighting about now?

Right now?

Now you're fighting about being right, because, really, I know you can see, like, I know you see how stupid this looks, but.

Oh, Boyden.

Yeah.

I'm looking back at a younger Kelly who liked being right.

And I remember arguing for something that I knew was total bullshit, that was wrong, that I just wanted to win.

And thank God that Kelly is reconciled a long time ago.

But I totally get that.

I've been there.

I've argued for something that I knew I was wrong at.

But, Kelly, just the fact that you say this in your podcast, like, that's big, that's humble, right, to say the younger Kelly.

And I'll tell you this like the younger Patricia I eat yesterday, fought about something because we slip.

It's not like I'm elevated now.

I just know where I need to get better at.

But I still sometimes fight to be right.

And I'm like, what am I doing?

What am I doing?

And then you get that check, and then you change.

It's okay.

It's okay to be humble about our struggle to not need to be right, because it is.

It's a personality trait is that, on the one hand, you need that confidence to succeed in business.

Right?

So being right and believing you're right, if you don't have that, you're never going to be a good business owner.

Right.

Do you agree with that?

It's like, yeah.

Being confident to take the next step.

And make a choice and believe that you're right.

Because if you're not sure, I don't know if I'm going right.

So I think leaders in general, business owners, entrepreneurs, leaders, I'm going to make a big statement.

I think those people in general are confident, and they believe they're right.

Great.

On the one hand, that is great trait to have, because it allows you to move forward.

It allows you to be self propelling because you believe you have the answers, you get going, you get moving.

That's the one thing that is very good about that trait.

However, there's the bad side of that trait, which is you tend to think you're always right.

And that is the part we need to have in check, which is, am I always right, or should I question if I'm right also for your business?

Because a lot of people fail in business because they always think they're right.

Yeah.

You know, one of the things that I wasn't always good at, that I'm definitely getting better at now, is asking for help.

I, you know, thank God, through the show, I've met so many amazing people who are willing to help me, which is amazing.

And that's definitely changed my perspective on asking for help.

But.

But I think that as business owners, there's plenty we don't know.

Like, I've only ran my business for four years.

Um, so, like, I'm still a young entrepreneur in the grand scheme of things, and I have a lot that I don't know.

And I'm not afraid to say it, but I'm also not afraid to call somebody and say, hey, this is what's going on.

I'm not really sure what the right choice is here.

Can you help me?

And you would be surprised, like, if you're willing and brave enough to ask for help, how many people will help you?

And I will say right now, if you're brave enough to reach out to me and you have a business development question and.

And you need some help, I would be more than happy to help you.

Because I think that as entrepreneurs, I think there's a lot of businesses failing unnecessarily just because people are afraid to call and ask for help.

Absolutely.

And there's a lot of communities for that, too.

Like, you have eo, right, the entrepreneurs organization.

You have ypo.

And the whole premise of these communities is peer help.

So there's.

And what I like about this is there is a movement now to normalize the need for others.

There is a movement to normalize the need for mental health.

There is a movement to normalize the.

I'm suffering.

Like I'm succeeding, yet I'm suffering.

I'm struggling, whether in my marriage, whether with my children, whether with my friends, with loneliness, because on the outside, it looks like I have it all.

And then really, there's all these issues, and now it's normalized to come for help.

The amount of leaders and successful business people and doctors and just people that on the outside, you would never think it's like, all right, now they're all like, this is the human me.

This is the humble me.

And you've done that just now when you're like, the younger me would have said this, like, the younger me.

So just being okay with being wrong or being fallible or having issues and questions and doubts, I think that is what's going to allow us to really now be successful and happy.

Because before it was either or either you're really successful but miserable when you die by yourself, lonely, you know, having all these issues now, it's like, I think I see a lot more balanced people where you have that fulfilling personal life and also a very successful entrepreneurial life.

Yeah, well, it's like, you know, you know, I'm a millennial.

I'm on the.

On the younger.

I'm calling you middle aged.

I think I'm going to have to apologize.

You know, I got a young.

I'm like, sorry.

I just put everybody.

I'm like, now that I'm middle aged, I'm like, I'm putting everybody in the middle age.

I would argue.

I feel middle aged.

So there you go.

I'm young and I'm like, okay, we're gonna scratch all of that from the podcast.

Fit in well with 19 or 20 year olds anymore.

You know what, Kelly?

You're wise.

It was your wisdom that got me thinking that you're middle aged, like me and the old lady in the young interview.

Oh, my goodness.

I was going to say, though, even despite that, I grew up with toughness.

Being important, being very important.

Don't cry, be tough.

You know, don't ask for help.

Figure it out on your own.

Work hard, keep your head down, keep your nose clean, do a great job at everything.

And I feel like as, you know, as 35 year old Kelly now, I'm having to rework on that because I spent a lot of my life not being vulnerable, not being open to help, not asking for things that I needed.

Suffering in silence because that was the way you were supposed to do it.

And so, you know, I've definitely grown a lot over the last, you know, five years.

30, 30 to 35, for me, has been a massive, massive change in more ways than I can imagine.

After 30, that's when you really start adulting.

So it's.

It's two things to what you said there.

One is the evolution from 30 to 35.

We see that a lot.

And having grown with, you know, you have to be strong.

You have to be tough.

You have to do this.

This is where you start questioning, are these things still true?

Are these things still valuable?

Do these things still make sense?

So after 30, because until 30, you're not really questioning.

You're like, you're going to university, getting a degree, you're starting your business, you're doing your thing, you're getting married, maybe having kids.

Like, you're kind of not questioning because you don't have time for that.

After 30, that's when you start questioning, are these my values?

Are these not?

Because after 30, they start being your values.

They start being your thoughts, as opposed to things that were passed on to you.

That's number one.

Now, number two, and this is something I work with all my leaders, 100%, is we do a math here, which is when you're not vulnerable, you spend some of your energy to pretend you're okay.

There's some energy expenditure in polishing this outside this strength that is fake.

And that amount of energy is wasted because it could have been put to use to way better things, like putting your business forward or having better relationships.

So the energy that we wasted pretending we're okay, pretending we're strong, it really is a stupid waste of energy.

Now, being vulnerable, it's weak.

It's.

Well, I don't know if it's weak, really.

It's the most effective way to spend your energy, because you're not wasting it.

You can be who you are with your fears, with your vulnerabilities, with your whatever is not going well, and then you can take all that energy and invested in getting better and moving forward.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, you know, like, we talked about this a little bit before the show, but, like, entrepreneurship, too, can feel very isolating, very lonely.

Right?

Like, you know, you hear it.

You hear it a lot.

The view from the top can be quite lonely, and it really can.

And it's so funny, you know, one of my really close friends, super successful, runs, you know, a $20 million business.

And I called him yesterday, and I was just like, dude, I'm having an absolute shit day.

Like, I was just not having a good day.

I just.

I was like, I need to talk to somebody.

There's not a lot of people I can talk to you, so I just want to talk to you.

Here's what's going on for me.

He's like, kelly, thank God you called.

Here's what's happening to me.

And he's like, thank God we have this, because I can't talk to my partners about this.

I can't talk to my wife about this.

These are just things that I live with unless I have somebody to talk to.

And it's like.

It's so funny.

Like, I can't.

I'm sure every entrepreneur is struggling with that.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because the challenges of the entrepreneur is different than the challenge of the employee.

Right.

Because the entrepreneur, they have to worry about their own.

There's that responsibility of, this is my business.

A lot of times, your own money is running that business.

So it's really personal.

It's not just the salary.

It's like, all of my money is in this, especially if it's cash intensive.

But not only that, there's that sense of responsibility for the families that you employ.

So if the business goes bankrupt, it's my family plus all these other families that I employ.

So there's this extra added weight.

And then, of course, the, oh, my God, what if I fail?

What are people going to think of me?

What am I going to think of myself?

A little bit of that identity that enmeshes with the business.

If the business fails, does it mean I'm a failure?

Right.

So that's a big question.

And it's so funny because I've talked to multiple founders on this show who have lost one or two businesses that way, ended up coming back and becoming immensely successful, which blows my mind because I think of a loss like that.

And I just think PTSD stuff, like, how do you ever recover?

Because like you said, it's not just a loss of your organization, it's a piece of who you are.

You do not start a company and pour your heart and soul into it and not want with everything you have.

For it to succeed and that.

And for your own company, you'll do Saturdays, Sundays, all the different times.

So really, like you said, it's your DNA.

It has blood, sweat and tears.

It's so enmeshed with your really, it's character defining.

It becomes who you are.

And then at what point the company starts, at what point the person starts this middle part that is kind of enmeshed.

How do you make that differentiation?

And that is particularly difficult when it fails, because is it the company?

Does it mean I'm a nothing?

You know, especially if it goes bankrupt or if it loses all sales.

I'll talk about.

I'll do the pitch for the chapter two in my book, which talks about this entrepreneur canadian.

He's also.

Well, he's my brother, so.

We grew up in Edmonton, has a company here called patron Scan, which is id.

It's a.

It's an id scanning business.

During COVID lost 85% of his business because it's all hospitality.

Hotels were closed, bars were closed, restaurants are closed.

Can you imagine?

Like, what do you think happens when you lose 85% of your sales over?

Yeah.

You're not.

You're screwed, right?

Most of the time.

So then he's like, okay, month.

Like, it's gonna be a couple weeks, gonna be three weeks, and then month in.

Like, people are returning all this because it's all.

It's all.

It's service based.

And then all of a sudden it's like, what am I.

This is going to go bankrupt.

How long is this going to be?

We can't, you know, there's all these families.

I got to still pay salary, yet we have no money coming in.

It does something to somebody's mind, right?

Like, what do you.

How do you pivot from that?

If and then if you're not strong in the sense of if you cannot separate yourself from the business, you are unable to come back.

So that's why it's so important to have that very.

To have that clarity of where do you end and where does the business begin and where does the business failure just means business failure.

Don't read into it, as in, it must mean then that I suck.

I'm a bad business person.

It means nothing.

It just means the business failed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that's really hard for a lot of people to separate because, you know, I find that, like, as an entrepreneur and as I'm trying to build both this podcast, my company, you know, my coaching, everything that we're doing to.

Yeah, you put almost everything into it.

And I know that I can struggle with finding enjoyment outside of my work now because I think I focus so much on what we're doing next.

It's so exciting.

I love my work, and I can definitely struggle, for instance, to do things that I used to find enjoyable.

I struggle to do them now because there are times, especially with what we're doing, where it's like, that's a waste of time.

I need to be focusing on what's going to move the needle for my organization.

Right or wrong.

I have talked to so many entrepreneurs who struggle with the same thing.

Yeah, I love it how you said right or wrong.

Please elaborate on that.

As a therapist, what do you mean wrong?

What part of you thinks that could be wrong?

I think a part feels wrong because I want to enjoy my life today more.

But I also recognize that there's a sacrifice.

There's always a sacrifice.

Doesn't matter what it is you want to do.

You have to.

You have to sacrifice something to succeed somewhere else, usually.

And so it feels like, and I've talked to enough entrepreneurs to know that, and it sucks.

Like, this statistic kind of sucks.

Most of the ones that I've talked to you that are really successful have lost a great deal to achieve that success.

And even if they have balance in their life today, it took five to ten years of incredibly hard work to get to balance.

And so I think for me, I look at it as it's a necessary evil.

Even if it's not necessarily the goal that you would wish to have today.

You have to be clear about what price you're willing to pay, I think because, yes, sacrifice is the price, but then you got to figure out, what are you sacrificing and if that price is worth paying.

So, yeah, I will sacrifice free time.

I will sacrifice like so to write the book that big of an endeavor.

I needed to sacrifice my leisure reading because I only read things that pertained to that topic.

I had to sacrifice.

I love to work out.

I have a pretty good workout regimen.

I did sacrifice some of that.

Like, I wasn't as steady as I'd want it to be.

However, there are other prices I was not willing to pay.

The book came out a year after I wanted it to come out a year.

Like, that's twelve.

That's a lot of time.

Yeah, it is.

And the reason for that is because I was not going to sacrifice trips with my husband.

I was not.

That's a non negotiable.

Right.

I was not going to sacrifice having dinners with my kids.

So I had a period.

So between six and 10:00 p.m.

i sometimes came back to work, like 1010 30 and like, work another hour and a half and stuff on the book.

Yeah, but the six to ten, sacred.

Oh, but what it, no, it's not about ordering out.

It's because cooking and being together and asking about your day, 4 hours, you need to sit down.

So that was a non negotiable.

So when you are navigating that sacrifice, I find that you have to have the clarity to establish what are your non negotiables and what are you willing to sacrifice.

Because some things you are.

So if you work out four times a week, you can work out two.

But if you don't work out any, and if you gain 20 pounds, and if you don't go out with your wife and you ignore your friends, sure you're gonna have an awesome business, but you have nothing.

In ten years, you're gonna have heart blood pressure, you're not working out, your wife might have left you or whatever.

So I think more than the sacrifice is the clarity of where is this not going to cost me?

Because you will reach success, Kelly.

No matter.

The difference is you might be super successful in five or ten.

I see, I see.

Yeah, I think at times I can struggle with the pace at which things happen.

Right?

Because it's like, for me, I'm very results driven.

I want to see success.

I want to see the things moving forward.

Like, anybody who knows me knows that I'm very goal driven.

And I accomplish most of my goals.

I don't miss many of them.

But the problem is, is that I can get so set on that accomplishment that I can really block out a lot of other things.

And it's funny because I thought this was just me for a while.

And then I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs and they're like, yeah, like, that's me too.

Like, I have to, like, I have to check out.

Like, I have to do things.

I have to go hide my phone or lock it away.

I have to do all of these things in order to try to be more present in the moment.

Because, because I think most entrepreneurs, we don't live in the moment.

We live in tomorrow.

The one, one thing I always talk about in therapy is your biggest quality is always your biggest quality is also your biggest shortcoming.

So to be hyper focused, to be results driven, and listen, whatever I put establish as a goal, I usually get to it.

That is a great quality to have.

You get things done.

You're accomplished.

You go and you get it.

The other side of that is it's dangerous because you will accomplish it no matter what.

And that is what the danger is because you are so driven, you are so focused on that result that you, along the way, don't see what you're doing.

Yeah, it's, it's funny because I just hate losing.

I've talked about it on this show so many times.

I hate losing.

I just do.

And I don't know why.

It's just a part of who I am.

I just, I hate losing.

I was born, you know, I think I played a lot of sports growing up.

I loved winning in sports.

I loved winning in everything that I put my mind to.

And it's really translated into business, which, like you said, has been very beneficial in business.

But it can be negative, too, because sometimes I don't know when to quit.

And I'll just say, like, two more cents on that.

I hate losing.

The thing with business is that the loss is immediate.

So sales this month were less than sales last month, or the sales this month were less than sales last month.

So im going to work harder.

And then, sure enough, next month the sales are better.

So the thermometer is very quick.

So your win and your wins and the losses are immediate.

The problem with losing your health, losing your mental health, losing your wife and losing your children is that it's not overnight.

Like, you cannot adjust it over months when you realize you might have won three years in a row business wise, but in three years, you've been slowly losing these relationships.

You have been slowly losing these intangibles that are so worthy, but they are not measurable.

And then when you notice you can't go back the three years and you cannot revert overnight.

It's not an overnight.

It's not.

So it's like, okay, oh, my God.

My wife is perfect example.

My wife said she's leaving me.

Like, I don't know what happened or like, my son will not speak to me, and you're sitting there, okay, where did this start?

I don't know.

Just overnight.

I'm like, let's go back to the year they were born.

Right.

So it's like relationships are built.

Yeah.

And they're earned.

They're not.

You're not entitled to good relationships.

They're built or they're earned.

So if you don't work at them, if you don't make them, you're known, non negotiable.

Then you will lose them over time, no matter how successful you are in business, and you won't see it coming.

So I think, you know, you being such a young at 35, these are wisdom words from an old lady that, you know, it is.

It's something you build over time.

So I think, again, going back to the.

Establishing the non negotiables so that you can continue to achieve again, I don't want you to get rid of that great quality you have, which is a go getter.

You put the goals and for sure you're going to achieve them.

Keep that, but not to the point where it becomes mania and you lose stuff that is very important to you.

I think one of the challenges that I have, Patricia, is that I believe deeply in momentum, and I believe that you have momentum when you have it, and you have to take advantage of it when you have it.

And I think I have a bit of a fear that if I take a step back, I'm going to lose that momentum and I'll regret doing it.

But why are you stepping back?

Well, I don't know.

Like, I guess to me, it feels like, okay, if I look at my schedule for my time, like, I'm getting up at 05:00 a.m.

just to get things done that I want to get done that I can't get done if I don't get up at 05:00 a.m.

i'm not.

It was funny is I'm not a morning person.

I became a morning person as an entrepreneur to get more time because I couldn't rob time anymore from the evenings and weekends, so I had to rob it from my sleep in the morning.

I'm going to get you, but it's funny.

Get you to read that book while we sleep.

It's like, yeah, it's so funny.

I've become a morning person, more so out of necessity than desire.

But now.

Now I actually love it.

I love morning time.

I never did, but I became a morning person.

But it wasn't really a choice that I would have made without needing that time, which is super funny.

That is really funny.

That is.

It's, you know, you do what you need to do, for sure.

And it is about.

It's just not binary, as in, I'm gonna full throttle this or I'm gonna step on the sideline.

It's just.

It's not this or that.

It's not.

I'm a momentum person, or I let it go.

It's not about letting it go.

It is about, though, doing enough, keeping in check that you are a machine and you are.

You have limited resources.

The body is a machine, and if you don't respect it, it won't respect you back.

Right.

And the same with your relationships.

If you don't respect them, they won't respect your back.

So it is also about.

It's all the things you want to build parallel to each other.

So momentum in that as well.

One of the things that you said that really resonated with me is you'll be successful either way.

It just might take another year.

And I think, like, I.

I've struggled with thinking that because I think, well, that's a year that I could have been more successful.

As stupid as that is.

That's what goes on in my head.

It's not that.

Like, it's like.

It's like, yeah, but I could be there or I could be here, right?

Like, it just.

And I think that is just like.

And I have so many friends who would have say the same thing.

Like, if I was to really pin them down and have that conversation, they would be like, I hear, yeah, but if you slow down, you're slowing down.

And why?

When you could.

But you're right.

It's like, the whole goal, and this is the part that I struggle with is the whole goal of success for me is freedom.

And yet I'm less free today than I have ever been in my entire life.

Boom.

I have nothing to say to that.

But can we say it again so we can highlight it?

Oh, we'll highlight it.

Boom.

Like, I.

Yeah, I don't think I can ever say anything that comes after that.

Yeah, it's.

It is weird.

It's a weird paradigm.

But I think in my world, you know, and to a lot of people that I've chatted with who are successful and now have freedom, they had to work very hard to get there, and now they have it, and it's amazing.

And it's like, I think there's a part of me being young and striving and wanting to get.

There's like, I want to do that by 40.

I want to earn my freedom then so that I can have more of that time.

But, yeah, it does feel like a shitty trade.

It does feel like I'm losing today.

And the shitty part about that is, is tomorrow's not a guarantee and 40.

You'Re going to want more because it's a drug.

Right?

Achieving is a drug.

So every time you achieve something, you want something more.

So it's almost like you need to get cured from that obsession.

Because I'll tell you something, I remember financial independence was probably my number one core value.

Like it is nuts to say.

And, you know, I have reformed since.

But I guess, like my brother says, yeah, you've reformed because you've achieved it.

So, yeah, I guess, but.

Right, and then how much do I need?

And then to me it's like, okay, you need to have this much and then you reach it.

And then it's like, okay, then I need to have this much and then you reach it today.

Like, I kid you not, I have many times as much as I first determined I wanted to have.

It's sitting there like comfortable, right?

And the other day I was doing my taxes and I'm like, okay, how much money do I have and all this?

And I'm like, why do I still run for it?

Why do I still want to do more and more and achieve more and more?

Because it is a drug.

So it's okay to have that.

You know, I don't think it's a bad thing to have ambition to run for things, but I think it needs to be from a place of how can I contribute more?

How is my business going to solve more people's problems?

Right.

How is.

Because money will come no matter what.

Right.

And how can you serve your community and do all this coaching and help people become more successful in their businesses and have this great podcast that people are listening and hopefully will make their day better.

How can you do this that is service to your community, still make some money on the side, but not give up your non negotiables.

I would love for your marriage to be forever.

I would love for you, if you have kids or if you're going to have them, for you to have a great relationship with them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have three stepsons and I have a almost six month old biological son.

And I look at him now and I just think, like, I want to spend as much time as humanly possible with that, with those boys, you know?

And it does feel like, okay, like, okay, what that means if I want to spend more time with them, I need to really work hard to make it today so that I can have that time with them later.

But, yeah, it's like, I think we're all struggling with where do we make that sacrifice.

And I know I struggle with it immensely and, you know, I, my relationships have suffered, you know, my friendships have suffered a lot of things.

My health has suffered a lot of things have suffered.

Funny how I pointed them all out.

I'm like, did I point them all out for you?

And we, dear listener, we did not talk about this before.

No, we did not.

No.

But it's, but I would argue almost anybody I know who is ambitious has suffered from all the same things.

And my God, is it just the price we all pay?

Why do we, why is it that we're on this hamster wheel?

I propose to you, Kelly, not to be binary, yes or no?

So it's not either I succeed and I follow this momentum and I get going, or I let go of this dream, and then I'm not going to be successful and I just forget and I'm going to be mediocre.

What I'm proposing is this, and success and a good relationship.

Success and great relationships with your children.

Success and great health and working out and being in shape and not gaining a bunch of weight and eating healthy, because it is not binary.

And I think this is what our generation now is realizing, is that you actually can have it all.

You can have health and success.

It's just you need to have success realizing that that has both sides.

The really great part, which is the drive, but also needs to be kept in check.

So you take your calendar.

If this was a therapy session, I'd be like, let's open that calendar.

And I would make sure that we put in there, like, the blocks of time with wife and children.

I would put in there the blocks of workout times, and those would be in a color that are non negotiable.

Oh, but I have a really important meeting.

Well, then you change the time of your working out.

What are you going to get out of that?

You know, you can, you can move it around, but it has to be on that day or that week.

So you track, yeah, I'm going to work out four times a week.

Well, I don't care if you have to do it Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, but it needs to be done.

Yeah.

So, yeah, because then you can have it all.

You can have it all.

That's, that's what my whole, like, I want to convert everybody to believe it.

You can.

It's not binary.

It's not.

Either you're successful or you're like a deadbeat under the bridge.

It's like, no, there's, you can have it all.

I was going to say, patricia, this is starting to feel a little bit like a therapy session.

Well, there we go.

I'll get, I'll get you booked for next one.

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah, no, and I want to spend a little bit of time on that because I think that your kind of career jump, you know, you were a successful, and still are not just were, still are a successful entrepreneur who decided to then pursue a path in therapy.

How like, that seems like a very interesting jump.

You were already incredibly successful, and yet you just, you went the therapy route.

Why did you do that?

Because remember where I was telling you about, you know, you're successful in something, and then all of a sudden you want meaning.

I love, I have an import export business.

I still run it.

It's 20.

How old is it now?

23 years old.

I got 23 years on my.

23 years old.

I sell food to private labels in the US.

Love the business.

Super profitable.

Does it well.

So the whole idea was, how can I contribute more?

And this is what I was telling about while you're coaching about your podcast, how do you contribute to this big world?

How do you help people live better lives?

And of course, the pivot was, I started going to therapy.

I saw the effect that the therapist had in my life, and I was like, man, I want to have this impact in somebody else's life because that is meaning.

That is a life where you die.

You're like, I've helped people.

I wasn't just self serving all life long.

So that's what I did.

Went back to school, so I got a master's in psychology, started working, started seeing clients.

I have a psychoanalytical training in Brazil as well.

And I love it.

This is the truly my passion work.

Love talking to people.

It's not as lonely as it was, you know, as an entrepreneur.

It is lonely, right?

It's like there's these families that depend on you people you employ.

My success, it's not just mine.

So I can't fail.

I feel like I can't fail because it's like all this responsibility.

Whereas here in therapy, I facilitate.

So it's almost like you get to go on a journey of self improvement, of self discovery, of, you know, how do we change or reframe these thoughts?

And it's.

I love this work, my, like, it's such a passion.

I love it.

I wonder.

I wonder if it comes out my voice, but it truly is something I love doing well.

And I think that you are so unique.

You are so unique.

You know, you're keyed as the therapist for entrepreneurs.

And I think that that is really, really important because it takes an entrepreneur to know an entrepreneur, and you're not afraid to call out an entrepreneur on their shit because you are one and have made those same rationalizations in your own head.

So you can literally say you're kidding yourself, quit it.

Whereas I think there's a lot of therapists that wouldn't be willing to do that.

And frankly, there's not a lot of people willing to challenge an entrepreneur or a leader unless they are a leader themselves.

Yeah, there's a little bit of that.

I think.

I think for therapy, the one predictor for successful therapy is the relationship between the client and the therapist.

That's the number one predictor.

It's not the approach you use, it's not where you were educated, it's not nothing.

It's the relationship.

And I find that for sure, the population of entrepreneurs resonates well with me.

There's something about the way I speak.

There's this assertiveness and this voice, and that's the way I present things that jives, that resonates, that they feel heard or seen.

And for sure, I do.

A lot of it is I see you because I see me in you.

So it's a lot of the work I've done as well, a lot of the personality traits that I carry, so that even the ability to see them as great qualities, but also where the shortcomings come in.

So for sure, that has something to do with it, but that doesn't mean that's exclusive to me.

There's for sure other therapists that will do great work, even though they're not entrepreneurs.

And they can also hold that space and make the client feel seen and heard and all that.

But for sure, you have to know where you succeed.

You know, clients that have the need for more supportive therapy, that need you to kind of be there.

There's some questions and issues that I tend not to work well with and those I usually refer out because, again, I still have that.

Like you, I like to win.

I like to see clients that I know I'm going to be successful with and I'm going to have a good rate like that things will move forward.

So I do this little interview first, you know, 2030 minutes, and like, okay, what can I help you with?

And then if I see it's gonna be a great match and we're gonna move forward and it's gonna happen, then sure, I'll start the work.

Otherwise, I'm like, you know what, this I'm not very good with.

And here's great people that I work with, and they do great work with you, and you'll be way better served by this therapist.

And then I just refer them out.

Yeah.

No, it is amazing, though, and I think it is a specialty.

I don't think I've ever seen somebody who specializes in entrepreneurship before.

And so I think this is really cool.

I'm really.

I'm really thankful we're having this conversation, and I'm pretty confident that somebody listening is gonna be like, I need to reach out to Patricia, because we're struggling with these same problems when I am.

When I started the business development podcast, one of my goals, my main goal was always to educate and inspire with every episode.

That's what we want to do.

My other goal was to be as open and vulnerable as possible, to show the real side of entrepreneurship, not the bullshit side that the world sees and all these people on this giant pedestal, but the fact that we're all people and we still suffer together.

Right.

Like, we still have the same problem.

It's very, very real.

And I've been as open and transparent as possible, frankly, more open and transparent than I've even been probably, in my personal life and for a lot of my life.

So, you know, I think.

I think having conversations like this where we can be open and vulnerable and nothing sugarcoat it, talk about the truth of the reality and become more human and show that, you know, everybody is capable of entrepreneurship.

Everybody has it in them if they want to take that.

That jump, because so many people have great ideas, are inspired, you know, could change the world, but they're just afraid to take that step.

And, you know, one of the questions that I wanted to ask you was, what was it that made you take your initial entrepreneurial jump?

Were you just born that way, or was there a catalyst that kind of spearheaded that for you?

No.

In.

In respect for the truth, I don't agree with you that everybody can be an entrepreneur.

No.

Hey, I know.

It's not that I don't believe.

I mean, that came out harsh, but I think an entrepreneur has a set of skills that it's not that nobody's.

It's not that people are not capable of it.

Some people just don't want it.

And I think that is to be respected my own path.

Like, I would have never chosen to be an entrepreneur.

I'll tell you that for sure.

So, when I finished my, like, I finished an MBA, and then I finished a master's.

Master's in management, in France, all I wanted was to be an executive.

All I want, like, get a big company, get a great multinational job, go up the ranks, make it to sea level and happy as we like.

That was the plan I had for myself.

Never, ever, ever.

But then I went to Brazil.

I went back.

When I finished, I went back to Brazil, was dating my husband already.

We were engaged at that time.

And I'm like, okay, fine, I'm gonna go to Brazil.

I have great education.

It's gonna happen.

I got no job offers for the amount of money I wanted to make.

I got some job offers, and I wasn't.

And let me explain that, that I was not looking for a bunch of money.

It was just something reasonable, right?

Somebody with an MBA, I'm like, I should be paid at least, like, enough to pay my bills.

And nothing.

I did not get any offers.

The only offer I got was, like, to work in an old industry that I wasn't interested in.

It still didn't pay very well.

So I'm like, well, this is not for me.

Now, my husband, he is the one to blame for all of this.

He, like, for sure, like, pestered me and pestered me, and like, you got to open your own business.

You got to do your own thing.

You got to open your business.

Oh, my God, for Christ's sakes.

Like, no.

I'm like, you come from an entrepreneurial family.

His dad's an entrepreneur.

Everybody there, they have their own businesses.

They run their own thing.

And he's like, you got to do it.

You got to do it.

Then it's all yours.

And I'm like, for Christ sakes, no, no, no.

And sure enough, so then I opened my business, and my business was consulting for companies that wanted to export.

So that's how it all started.

I'm like, I speak English.

I can talk to the FDA.

I can get your products approved.

I can get everything kind of adjusted to make sure you get into the us.

And sure enough.

And then I'm like, whatever.

Sales, I want a percentage.

I want a commission on the sales.

But it was my own business.

So did that for a year.

I was working, still fixed, was very little that the idea was that I was going to make money on the sales for a year, I made very little money.

I'm like, I'm quitting this.

This is no good.

Like, somebody with an MBA should be making more money.

He's like, relax, relax.

It's going to work out, right?

The wisdom.

I'm like, oh, for Christ's sake.

So again, so it's 100% his fault because he was so adamant and he was such a believer.

For a year and a half, Kelly, I made no money.

Like, I made like a month.

It was hideous.

And I'm like, I can have an allowance for my parents that is bigger than this stupid salary.

It was so dumb.

Like, it was so I worked.

Like, I've never worked so hard for such little money.

But sure enough, I'm very grateful to him because it was 100% him.

I would have for sure quit and found a job.

It turns around, and when it does, then it's like, cha ching.

It's all good.

The money keeps coming in.

It's recurring sale now.

It's all good.

But it took a while for things to take off.

Yeah.

Yeah, I guess.

Like, did you, did you embrace it eventually?

Yes.

Yes, I did.

Yes, I did.

Not now, I could not imagine a better life, so now I would never go back.

But sure, now it's like 30 years later.

Not 30, but like 23 years.

But I'd say the first five years, I oscillated a lot.

I oscillated a lot because the first five years, that's when you're building your business.

That's when you're working tons to not make a lot of money.

Right?

And also, if you think about this, I had two babies in those five years.

Oh, wow.

Right?

So I'm like, I remember I'm, like, nursing and kind of checking emails as I'm there.

Like, it's like my mat leave was ten days.

For ten days, I didn't check the computer.

And then, because I'm working from home, but ten days, I didn't check the computer.

And then you're still doing this.

It's, it's hard.

And I'm like, why am I doing this?

I'm not even making, like, why am I doing this?

Because I'm not making for sure.

It's not for the money.

Right?

So five years into it, then things turn around, and it's like, okay, oh, hang on.

Oh, this is good.

But it took a while.

So five years, it was rough.

I could not brag about my work for five years.

And then afterwards, okay, all right, then.

So now, hindsight, I'm like, everybody should be an entrepreneur.

But first five years, I'm like, this is dumb.

It is painful.

It has its moments.

I remember talking to my boss, you know, before I became an entrepreneur, and I worked with him for ten years, and he goes, Kelly, you know, you're an entrepreneur when you wake up at two in the morning and you're terrified about the future.

And I remember waking up at two in the morning being terrified about the future and be like, okay, I made it.

I am an entrepreneur.

For sure, for sure, for sure.

And I'll tell you this.

And I was from, like, I was in an extremely privileged position because in the first five years that I'm working lots and making very little, my husband's like, money is not a problem.

Like, he's supporting the house.

He's like, we don't worry about it.

So I didn't have, like, the money thing was more me because I'm like, I want it to be financially independent.

Like, I wanted to make lots of money.

It was.

It was a Patricia thing.

But ultimately, our housing, all the bills were paid, and even still, it was a struggle.

So if you add to that the response, the financial responsibility that 99% of entrepreneurs have that I didn't because I was privileged.

Man, oh, man.

I don't know how we all make it.

Like, I do not know.

How am I.

Oh, man, we should have, like, this.

Entrepreneurs Anonymous.

I'm Patricia Adam, entrepreneur.

Let's talk about PTSD.

It's crazy.

It is crazy.

It is crazy.

It's this, like, crazy roller coaster that's kind of.

That's like, the best thing that I can even compare it to is that you're going to have amazing highs and terrifying lows, and hopefully every once in a while, you find yourself on the way out.

And even today, like, and even today, right, like, again, 23 year old business, it's very established, it's very solid, very good set of clients, reoccurring sales every year.

I'm like, okay, what's going to happen this year?

Like, am I going to be able to supply everything?

Are the.

Are the maritime companies going to be good?

Are we going to have a Suez Canal problem?

Panama canal now?

Like, so Panama is all back up.

Is it going to be Covid?

Are the ports I sell to Baltimore?

That bridge was no good for me.

Like, the bridge that collapsed, okay?

I use that bridge for all of my shippings.

I'm like, oh, Baltimore is my biggest port where I sell to.

So that collapse, I'm like, all of a sudden, that whole week, I'm like, where are we diverting all these containers?

I have a bunch of containers in this here.

I'm like, where are we diverting?

It's nuts, right?

So every day is.

There's never a dull day in an entrepreneur's life.

No, but honestly, like, I couldn't imagine going back now, being the other side of it, it's like once you've gone this route on your own and proven that you can do it, the personal empowerment of entrepreneurship is worth it on its own.

You can make it happen.

You can make things happen.

You drink the Kool Aid, you never go back.

The empowerment, and I find, too, the empowerment for good.

Because if I can sell food and if I can get through the FDA, if I can do this, man, why am I not using these talents to enhance and better humanity?

Right.

Like, it got me to this.

I got to do something.

If I'm able to.

If I was able to get this done, hey, where can I contribute now to make other people thrive as well?

And.

Right.

So that, to me, it did a flip on the empowerment of, there are some talents that maybe I can put to use to service.

Right.

To contribute.

So that was my big.

That was my pivotal moment.

Yeah.

No, it's.

It's amazing.

I'm a huge advocate for entrepreneurship.

We're always trying to inspire a few to take a jump on the show, and I think we might have just done that.

I want to chat with you, Patricia, about some of the services that you offer, because obviously, you know, we've talked about therapy, but you offer.

You offer some other services as well.

Can we go through the full gamut of the services that you provide?

Yes.

So I.

I do the.

The.

It's almost a pyramid I was talking about to my marketing.

I'm like, we should have this on a pyramid.

So, the entry level is the book.

So, yeah, the book is about connections, about bettering your relationships in your personal life and professional life.

So, the book is the entry.

I do have the sessions, the one on one.

It's therapy, it's psychotherapy.

It's one on one sessions.

We can do it every week, do it every two weeks.

People do it whichever way they want.

I do, though, for companies, I speak and I do workshops, and mostly that's focused on company culture, how to create a connected culture so that companies can create these strong teams that then can succeed.

And the strong teams are made when people can connect across differences, when people can connect across generations and across values and cultures.

So that is what that big work is.

And that is something I'm really focusing on these days, because, again, like I told you, it's not about what the leaders think.

It's about how are you going to succeed as a leader in a changing workforce?

Because people are not quitting.

Right.

So now it's, do I cater for the leaders not really, because I am catering for their business.

Who's my client?

The business.

Because if I cater for the boss, then I'm going to try to convert the workforce to what the boss believes.

No, my client is the business.

For the business to succeed, I need these two, the leader and the workforce, to communicate and connect.

And that's what the workshops are about and some of these keynotes.

Well, now you have me really curious.

When you're working with these organizations, what are some of the common issues that you're finding?

We talked about one of them here, which is where, again, think of who the C suites are.

They're people my age.

So you have these like late forties, early fifties, they're on your C suites.

They are directors, they're managing partners.

And the workforce that comes under them, they're young and they don't stay in their jobs.

They.

The turnaround is really hard, is really high.

The disengagement is huge.

They're just not connected.

They're like, whatever, man, I'll come to work.

But I'm quitting at two.

And the owner's like, you can't quit at two.

If this needs to be done, I need you to be engaged.

I need you to be, you know, to really believe in this and get this done.

I need you to be totally in, on board on this.

And they're nothing.

And a lot of the times, the problem is the leaders and the C suites don't understand how we motivate the workforce.

So the work that I do with leaders in workshops, so workshops is smaller, is about how can you connect across these differences and across these generations.

So that's one of the things that I do and the other thing that I do is talk to the workforce.

So I get brought in to speak to the workforce and get the workforce to understand that, yes, we need to be connected to a purpose, yes, we need to be connected to values.

And I'm only going to work for this boss if I respect them, if their values are aligned with mine.

Correct.

But I need you to be accountable, right?

Because a lot of times they're just not accountable.

It's like, oh, I want a mental health day.

You know what, that's great.

You take your mental health day, but the stuff you need to hand in needs to be handed in.

So it's, it's, it's pushing both sides so that we can be in a workplace where we're all accountable.

Things get done.

We're still pushing forward, we're still moving forward, but it's a human workforce where, yes, sometimes you will need a mental health day.

And if I'm not in my computer today from twelve to two, you're not going to get on my case because all my stuff got done.

Maybe I worked from twelve to two midnight.

Right.

So where there's a little bit of that autonomy, it's, it's, it's give and push.

Because right now we're polarized because the, the bosses, again, they're like digging their heels and it has to be this way.

And the workforce is going, no, it has to be this way.

We want all these rights, but we're also not delivering.

It is about really getting people together because things were changing.

Yeah.

Like, I actually agree with you completely.

If you get the work done, I don't care, I don't care.

I want it done as long as I get the results.

How you got there, it's like, it's like you don't have to show me the math, just give me the right answer.

Right.

But like you said, the other side is, what do you do when they're not showing you the math and you're still not getting the result?

I think that's the struggle where we're all finding ourselves as leaders right now, where it's like, okay, we feel like we've given the leeway, but we're still not getting the result.

And we're not really sure how to motivate them to want to achieve more.

And I think that's hard.

And that is a huge, huge, huge question.

And in this, in these talks to the workforce, it has to do with take your position away for a bit and let's get on the shoes of whoever's running this business.

How would you run it?

Right.

And then get them to walk a mile in these shoes so that it's not about them, because a lot of it is that entitlement.

It's about me, I need this, that, and you're like, okay, but how does the business move forward if it's all about you?

Right, so the work has to be done on both ends.

Absolutely.

The workforce needs to be educated if they want to be successful because I think too, they come in at 25, in their twenties and early thirties, and a lot of it is not even realizing that you actually do need to work hard.

You might get the mental health days and we will value all this.

And you can work a four day week.

Absolutely.

If you produce really well, if you deliver really well, and if you're willing to.

You know what?

I'm going to take Friday off, but I'm going to start my Monday on Sunday evening just to get stuff together.

So that Monday, like I'm on and I'm 100% on and everything's done.

So they need that education too, which when somebody from the outside comes in and tells them that it's much better received than if the boss.

Oh yeah.

So that's, I believe that it's like the therapist.

Like I'm telling stuff.

It's like my wife told me this.

I'm like, listen to your wife.

Yeah, it, I totally, totally believe you.

This sounds super, super important.

I know there's people listening.

They're like, we need this.

How do they get ahold of you?

Patricia LinkedIn right now is the best way.

I do have a website.

It's patriciabathry.com, but it's, but it's under construction.

So it is under construction.

I'm getting things organized with the speaking, putting a speaking reel in, just putting all the context.

Nice.

But patriciabathory.com, you can try it.

Maybe it'll be up, maybe it won't.

Otherwise, LinkedIn, Patricia Bathory can text me there, message me there, drop me a note, we can get talking.

It'll be a pleasure.

Hopefully I can help businesses move forward, especially canadian albertan businesses.

It'll be great.

It'll be a pleasure.

Oh, okay.

Let's get, let's get a little more specific, though.

You could offer your services either across Canada or probably across North America.

Correct.

I can offer my services anywhere because it is online now with, I actually, I was in Istanbul last week giving a talk to Istanbul.

So it's, you can move around and you can do whatever.

Get on the plane and you get that done.

So anywhere therapy services, if it's psychotherapy and if you need to claim it on your insurance, then that's across Canada.

But I do have clients in the states and other places that, it's consulting work from a psychotherapist.

So interpret that as we will.

Either way, if you pay for it, it's available.

I'm not allowed to say I do psychotherapy in clients from the US.

It's like, all right, consulting work.

Amazing.

Well, this has been really great.

We could have talked for like another 2 hours for sure.

This was a great conversation.

So much to talk about.

I look forward to having you back again in the future, Patricia.

Until next time, this has been episode 174 of the Business Development podcast, and we will catch you on the flip side.

This has been the business development podcast with Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry and founded his own business development firm in 2020.

His passion and his specialization is in customer relationship generation and business development.

The show is brought to you by capital business development, your business development specialists.

For more we invite you to the website at www.

Dot Capitalbd Dot ca.

See you next time on the Business Development podcast.