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Hello, welcome back to the Promoted podcast.

I am your host Felicity Furey and we have a very special guest on the show today.

It is my co founder, Chief Research officer Michael Furey from we Aspire.

Great to have you on the show.

Michael, welcome.

Finally get to be back on here with you wonderful people.

So yeah, thank you for the invite.

Pleasure.

And we've been wrapping up our 2024 and we thought we would do a few episodes on what have been the biggest highlights, the biggest lessons from the 217 people that have participated in our programs.

And Michael, you are our lead coach.

You work one on one with a lot of incredible first time leaders in construction and infrastructure.

I think one standout for me for this year has been the number of people that you have coached through fatigue management and understanding performance.

So tell us about that.

What have been the challenge people?

And I think it's perfect at this time of year that we're actually talking about this.

Yeah, I'd say the biggest one, largely speaking is that I think a lot of people don't realize they have a mental model around performance and they haven't stress tested if that performance model is correct or appropriate or sustainable for the context they're working in right now.

And what we see time and time again, especially this year, is that what is prevalent when it comes to performance in construction and infrastructure is one of just the continuous sprint.

And if you look at how you define the the word sprint, it is a short duration run at a high velocity or a high speed.

But if you run at a high velocity all the time, that's just called running really fast all the time, that's not called a sprint.

And I think there is a real difference with people who can actually sprint in a sustainable way and understanding that if you are going to sprint, you have to factor in a period of recovery.

And I'm hoping if you're listening to this around December, January, this is your opportunity to really do that.

It's really not enough to just rest once a year or be forced to rest or be forced.

And I say forced because there's been people in our programs who've dealt with, they're having to get medical permission to take time off because of where they're at.

And that is a sign that your performance model is, I'd say is not working and should be stress tested or looked at.

It's something that I find personally really, really challenging.

And I think for me it's been this society of you have to just deliver, perform.

There's been no Conversation in my career around rest, unless I've spoken to some really incredible leaders.

And I know some of our mentors that we get in our programs talk about this a lot.

One in particular I called up one day to ask his advice and he's like, I'm just going to a Pilates class.

And he's the CEO of a large organization in construction in Queensland.

I thought what he's, it's like, you know, the middle of the day and he's making time for it.

And I know he's really big on that and he talks to me a lot about that.

I found personally really, really tricky and I think it's almost like a, a habit or a mindset.

It's just not even in my thinking.

But that's something that needs to be factored in to, to my year or to my time.

So where can people even, even start if it's something that, oh, I'm just taking my four weeks of leave every year.

What's kind of, you know, that's, that's part of resting.

But what do you think people can kind of factor into their everyday experience of work and life to make sure they are resting?

So one of the most powerful things you can do is stop and reflect, right?

And be asking yourself, especially around this time of year, what's actually driving you.

So it's great to be, to strive, it's great to be ambitious.

But when striving ambition starts to cause and starts to impact on your material well being, then perhaps then there's actually something behind that.

So the question I would pose to you, well, what is driving you?

What's driving you to keep going, to keep being this relentless?

Because if you look at high performers more broadly outside of a work context.

So let's take sport, it's a really easy one and quite visible to see is that when we see top athletes performing, let's say soccer, rugby, whatever, even cricket, you see them in a short intensity period.

So let's take a soccer team.

They perform for 90 minutes a week at the highest possible level.

Outside of that, if you looked at their training regime, they would rest on the Sunday, which is the following day.

They might play, they might go and stand in the ocean.

Which is why I've seen AFL teams do that in Melbourne, where the day after they've played, they go and stand in, in the ocean.

They literally stand in the ocean and let their muscles kind of, kind of naturally, you know, navigate the fatigue which is developed.

And then Monday to Friday they would be doing some sort of Strength testing, they would be doing some sort of training, but it's not at the intensity that you would expect to have happen on game day.

And that's because sports teams understand fatigue, high performance really, really well.

Because there is a point where if you keep running, if you keep running really, really fast, performance starts to actually get worse.

And I think that's the light bulb moment for people.

And I'm not sure if I could say that for yourself, but when you start to realize that actually your mental model of performance is actually doing the opposite of what you intended, that's actually when you start to go, okay, well hang on, I need to, need to change this because I think especially as young and emerging leaders, which we work with, they tend to get their focus on the next kind of short term ambition.

But if you think about, just take a breath for a second, you know you're trying to build a career here.

Performance matters over the long term.

It's not necessarily just this year.

It's going to be up to how you're going to perform ongoingly.

And high performance in the nature of its definition cannot be achieved in a, in a long period without understanding all elements of it.

It's not just working hard, it's working smart.

It's also allowing time for rest, for training, for skill development.

So we think in you talking there was around, it was kind of like that was one of my like tools in my toolkit was, you know, if I stay back at work once a night, so once a week, then that's kind of like, well they, you know, I'm proving myself.

They can't say I'm not working hard.

And it was kind of like this, this thing I had over other people.

And so it was almost like my mental model was rewarding myself for, oh, well, if I work, if I stay back and I work hard and I work hard, I can outwork somebody.

And that was kind, the tool I had in my toolkit at the time.

So when you talk about those reflection questions, what are some of the things that people can ask themselves?

I know you often recommend a lot of people take themselves for a coffee once a week or take themselves for lunch once a week.

And recently in one of our programs, and we suggest that it was like this sigh of relief in the room, like, oh, I would just be loved.

They were all parents, so, you know, that makes sense.

They were, oh, that would be so nice to give myself for lunch or a coffee.

So what would you recommend for people when they're having that coffee with themselves?

If that's what they choose to do or that reflection time.

What are some helpful questions that you found have really worked for people?

I'd say the first one, as I mentioned, is what's driving you?

And kind of do some work there.

Don't just take your first answer as gospel.

Start to dive in.

Okay, so let's say what's driving me I want to be successful.

Okay, cool.

What's underneath that?

Well, why are you trying to be successful?

I want to prove to my family that I'm, you know, I'm in.

Impressive or something like that.

Okay, well why does that matter so much?

So challenge yourself with a couple of layers of well, why that?

Why, why, why?

What are those drivers?

What you probably end up finding is that a lot of people are actually kind of.

They're coming from a space of fear.

They're coming from.

I don't want to get sacked, I don't want to be seen as weak.

I don't want to be seen as inadequate.

And if I can't keep up with everybody else and maybe inferred that I'm rubbish or I'm inadequate or I can't keep up.

Right.

I think if you look at statistically, actually, let me come back to the questions.

The other one would be is what's the culture within your team or within your organization?

What we see a lot in construction is that it is a highly demanding environment.

The stakes are high.

If you make mistakes, then it costs money and time and reputationally it can be very, very damaging.

And a lot of companies are striving to make sure that they can show to the client they can deliver.

But what that also drives is again a culture of overworking, a culture of I have to be on 24 7, I have to respond to emails at 11:00 at night, even though no one's going to actually get back to me.

And it's that intensity can be super, super demanding.

So have a look at what's the culture within your team, within your organization and perhaps you could even expand that out to the, to the, to the like your sector, to like if you're in infrastructure or if you're in construction more broadly, what's the culture, what is expected?

And you'll probably find if you're in construction, as an example, yeah, it is work 24 7.

It is just this is how it's done.

The last question I, then I go is, how are you defining success?

A lot of people define success.

Again, they'll, they'll inherit a model of success.

So and by inherit, I mean it'll be done or be told to you by society that success looks like.

If you drive a nice car, if you live in a certain suburb, if you do this, if you do that, if you get a 4 rather than a 3 in your performance review, then that is success.

When you're operating off someone else's model for success, you will innately find in about 10 to 15 years, you'll look back and go, oh, I didn't really care about that.

Or there's a high chance that actually, that's not actually how you define success at all.

So once you start to reflect on those questions, so what's driving you?

What's the culture and the performance?

And then how do you define success?

You can start to deduce from that, okay, well, what is important to me, do you want to keep going like this?

Do you want to make 2025 the same as 2024?

That's a great set of questions.

And I want to specifically touch on that piece around the culture and that environment.

Because one thing that can be tricky is that you've got that model for success and you've got that what those boundaries are for you.

And then you've got to go back into that workplace and back into some of those cultural norms.

How.

What would be your advice to people who are doing this?

Reflection and realizing, oh my gosh, I'm working in this environment that has these expectations or, you know, and it could be perceived.

I've certainly done that.

Perceived that I need to be working 247 when actually I don't need to be.

Certainly as a business owner.

Owner.

It feels like that a lot.

What, you know, what advice would you have for people who might have a boss that has these expectations?

How can people navigate that?

I think it's extremely difficult.

And there's actually.

No, I don't actually have the answer there.

And I think it's about when you, when you've asked those questions, I would start to speculate on, well, how are you going to navigate if you are in a culture where overworking is prevalent, actually their view of performance and high performance is just relentless.

Okay, well, you're going to have to find ways to survive and navigate that.

One of the most powerful ways to influence someone else is to get where they're coming from or speak in a language which they understand.

So, for example, if you've got a boss who loves rugby, find out who their rugby team favorite is, do some research about that rugby team and go, okay, how does X rugby team actually perform at the highest level.

And what you might be able to start to do is start to kind of socialize this concept around performance.

Because when people understand that actually performance is made up of many different things, there's the working part.

Yeah, absolutely.

There's also the training part, the skill improvement, there's also the maintenance part which is like diet, nutrition, exercise, health and well being.

And the other part then is well, rest and recuperation.

If you look at any high performing team when you it's not give me any sport, give me any organization, rest is factored in.

In fact rest is focused and emphasized because the, what happens in your brain from a neurological perspective is phenomenal.

When you rest like your performance can significantly improve.

And I've done this with people in the coaching over this year is by just saying, look, 80% of performance is, comes from good diet, good exercise and good sleep.

You'll find that if you're dealing with mental health challenges right now, if you can get those things, diet is as a diet even doesn't have to be very good.

You can just literally be eating regular.

Because again I hear that all the time.

I managed to get lunch today.

I just had, I've just had long night coffees, all that.

You know, like it's like okay, again if you've got challenges, mental health, if you're feeling stressed, if you're feeling like the fastest way to do that is to a E regularly.

The second, do some exercise, go for a walk at lunchtime, like park five minutes extra away, like do some exercise and then just get some sleep on the weekend or get, get to bed an hour earlier.

Like Chinese saying is that sleep before midnight is worth double what it is.

I'm not sure if that's true or not, but that's what sort of Chinese say.

So you know like it's, it's these examples, it's actually actually very simple.

But so if you're in an environment where they don't understand performance, starting to socialize things around, okay, well this is how other high performance teams do it then.

Actually if you're a team which is just continually overworking, guess what, you're not actually being a high performing team in reality.

Yeah.

And it's that continuous piece, isn't it?

I mean I feel like I've rested now that I'm going to be fine forever.

And it's not just a one off thing.

One off tick the box is an ongoing thing.

Have you seen any approaches that have worked well to set it up in that ongoing Fashion to.

I just think often today we're wanting this Instagram immediate gratification.

I feel like often that's my.

Again, mental model around rest, like tick of rest.

I've rested now.

What?

Yeah, have you seen that for people that that's what they try to do and just go, oh, I've rested, move on now the next thing.

Well, I think you're a beautiful example of what not to do, actually, in many ways.

Yeah.

Like I think I used to before children, you know, the way I used to navigate things was I just work really hard, work really late until the night and.

And I found since having kids, because I'm.

I might, I kind of.

My fatigue is higher already that actually I can't, I just can't do that.

I can't dip into my energy bucket as much as I used to because I just can't recover.

And so I think I forget the specific wording.

But the lesson will repeat until you actually learn the lesson.

Right.

And so I think maybe if you're still in a situation that you're not changing, then perhaps you have actually haven't learned a lesson that your model of performance is not working or it's not sustainable.

And again, you know, it's not, I'm not sitting here and preaching that you must do this.

It's that if it's not working for you, then it would be a smart move to think about changing it.

As usual, this podcast is incredibly helpful for me, if not for many of our listeners, but I've certainly got a lot of key takeaways from this conversation.

Is there anything you wish I asked you about fatigue and performance that I haven't asked you yet?

I think the last just round out piece is that if you can get your head around what actual high performance looks like, it is a secret weapon.

You can outperform your combination colleagues massively.

I had one of my coaching clients come back recently and she said I took some time off.

She actually rested, she actually got some managed her fatigue, she actually improved her diet, actually improved her.

Her nutrition and she's going into this Christmas break going, I feel fantastic.

Whereas her colleagues are on the floor.

So actually, if you manage your fatigue, if you manage, if you understand what high performance actually is and that it's not just about working harder and harder and harder and harder, then actually it's a complete secret.

You can wipe the floor.

It's actually that easy because most people a never, never take a step back and look at their mental model performance and even, even smaller group actually Change it.

And that's why we've got this prevalent culture in construction where we all just work our socks off.

And, you know, time and time again I hear this phrase, just going to make it till Christmas, make it till Christmas.

And many of the people listening were probably just making it to Christmas, right?

And question is, okay, well, how are you going to be when you get back, when you get home at Christmas with your family?

You're just going to be there with, you know, matchsticks in your eyes that your eyes propped open your.

Hi, kids.

Hi, family.

It's great to see you.

I'm so exhausted.

Like, well, that's great.

If that's, if that's what success looks like for you, great, keep going.

But if you actually want to be energized ongoingly, if you actually think success is not just that, and if you genuinely want to thrive and you need to let your brain rest because you'll find that when you're rested, when you're performing at a high level, actually your brain works better, you'll find out ways to do things better.

And so I'm not sure if you're ready to change it, Felicity, but I might post that as a last question.

I realized exactly how we've gotten to Christmas.

Michael did a really great job of taking lots of rest and lots of sleep.

And I've turned up to our holiday, which we are currently on, being completely exhausted on the floor.

I am that colleague.

And Michael, you have been very rested, which has been great for me because you've been able to take the kids a lot, which I very much appreciate.

I feel that's a good goal for me for next year is what if I finish the year being like going into the break of resting?

Because I don't think I've ever done that.

I'm like, I'm like scraping over the finish line, stumble crawling across the finish line.

So it's a great question, I think a really good one to leave it on.

And I think we're going to jump into this in the next episode.

But on resilience, right?

This is the double edged sword of resilience, is that resilience has promoted us.

This huge benefit is a huge strength to have, especially in the sectors that we work in.

And that's true.

Absolutely.

Do you need resilience in this space?

Absolutely.

But if you're incredibly resilient, it also means you put up with stuff which you shouldn't necessarily put up with.

And there is a other side of it where actually you need to lower and that's what I really actively tried to do, lower my levels of resilience, quote, unquote, to sleep and to rest.

And even though I want to work and want to keep.

Okay, go and have some sleep.

Take the day off.

Just chill for a second.

Like, just don't have a second.

Third coffee, just to have one today.

You know, if you can start to do that, actually, you'll find that over the time, your performance will improve on a more sustainable basis.

It's a great teaser for our next episode.

Thank you for being our special guest.

Michael Furey, it's been wonderful to have you on the Promoter podcast.

The podcast which helps you get promoted and be great when you get there.

We'll see you in the next episode.

Thanks for listening.